The Flat Earth Society
Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Investigations => Topic started by: PraiseGOD on March 15, 2022, 11:38:34 PM
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I challenge round earthers to an experiment. Google search and find an airline plane ticket booking website of your choosing. Search for flights from and to the following two destinations below:
Perth (Australia) ---------> Buenos Aires (Argentina)
Auckland (New Zealand) ---------> Cape town (Africa)
Filter for "fastest". Now click on any of the first few and plot the flight path on a globe earth and then on a flat earth map. Report back with results.
Google Earth:
https://earth.google.com/
Flat Earth map:
https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Map.png
EDIT: Here are the results of the investigation:
Perth (Australia) <--------> Buenos Aires (Argentina)
(https://i.imgur.com/bXWb9CH.jpg)
Investigation:
Now let’s see which way the fastest available commercial flight route takes us…
1.
(https://i.imgur.com/iAEPgYM.png)
2.
(https://i.imgur.com/4FD9uNr.png)
3.
(https://i.imgur.com/H0OLr72.png)
4. Plotting on our maps:
PER Perth --> DOH Hamad International --> GRU Sao Paulo --> AEP Buenos Aires
(https://i.imgur.com/y1Nw7Ht.jpg)
Auckland (New Zealand) <------> Cape town (Africa)
(https://i.imgur.com/jbRbzZd.jpg)
Investigation:
Now let’s see which way the fastest available commercial flight route takes us…
1.
(https://i.imgur.com/VNELMrg.png)
2.
(https://i.imgur.com/qcEf0Rx.png)
3.
(https://i.imgur.com/WRG8eFs.png)
4. Plotting on our maps:
AKL Auckland --> SYD Sydney --> SIN Singapore --> JNB Johannesburg --> CPT Cape Town
(https://i.imgur.com/HnMTFke.jpg)
But don’t take my word for it.. try it yourself. You’ll actually find some flight paths that seem to go right over the North pole on a flat earth map..
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I'd like to join in, but there seems to be a lack of available flights at the moment due to .. you know .. the pandemic and such.
I spent some time on it, but gave up. Sorry.
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I'd like to join in, but there seems to be a lack of available flights at the moment due to .. you know .. the pandemic and such.
I spent some time on it, but gave up. Sorry.
Try searching for April/May flights
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I'd like to join in, but there seems to be a lack of available flights at the moment due to .. you know .. the pandemic and such.
I spent some time on it, but gave up. Sorry.
Try searching for April/May flights
What are we looking for exactly? Non-stop flights?
If so, in the meantime, I couldn't find any non-stops for the cities you mentioned. But there's a non-stop from Sydney to Johannesburg:
(https://i.imgur.com/hpJhN28.jpg)
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I've personally taken several flights from Brisbane, Australia to Dallas and vise versa. Not sure how useful that is. As I recall, it took about 17 hours. Long enough to fit in quite a few in flight movies. I will say that I usually slept for a while, but I did stay up the whole time once, and I managed to fit in 5 movies and 6, almost 7, episodes of Top Gear, which seems in line with the flight time. The in-flight entertainment systems include a very nice map that lets you see where you are at any point, how long you've been flying, how long is left. I don't think Quantas flies that route any more, but it was one of the longest in the world at one point.
Sidebar, if anyone flies Quantas at any point, try getting upgraded to first class somehow. It's almost never full, and it's palatial. I took some flights back and forth on company dollar for a relocation, and racked up enough frequent flier points to upgrade from business class. Worth it.
Cheers.
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I'd like to join in, but there seems to be a lack of available flights at the moment due to .. you know .. the pandemic and such.
I spent some time on it, but gave up. Sorry.
Try searching for April/May flights
What are we looking for exactly? Non-stop flights?
If so, in the meantime, I couldn't find any non-stops for the cities you mentioned. But there's a non-stop from Sydney to Johannesburg:
(https://i.imgur.com/hpJhN28.jpg)
No non-stop flights between those destinations - you found this too. Interesting.
Plot the fastest flight route (multiple destinations) you can find between my specified flight paths:
Perth (Australia) ---------> Buenos Aires (Argentina)
Auckland (New Zealand) ---------> Cape town (Africa)
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I've personally taken several flights from Brisbane, Australia to Dallas and vise versa. Not sure how useful that is. As I recall, it took about 17 hours. Long enough to fit in quite a few in flight movies. I will say that I usually slept for a while, but I did stay up the whole time once, and I managed to fit in 5 movies and 6, almost 7, episodes of Top Gear, which seems in line with the flight time. The in-flight entertainment systems include a very nice map that lets you see where you are at any point, how long you've been flying, how long is left. I don't think Quantas flies that route any more, but it was one of the longest in the world at one point.
Sidebar, if anyone flies Quantas at any point, try getting upgraded to first class somehow. It's almost never full, and it's palatial. I took some flights back and forth on company dollar for a relocation, and racked up enough frequent flier points to upgrade from business class. Worth it.
Cheers.
[Edit: Just checked- on a Globe Earth, that flight is 8,943 km, and a flat earth has a 10,869 km flight. That's with a northern monopole map. ]
A 2000km difference is not enough to come to any conclusions here. That is why I ask you to specifically check:
Perth (Australia) ---------> Buenos Aires (Argentina) | Globe Earth = 13,000km, Flat Earth = ~25,000km
Auckland (New Zealand) ---------> Cape town (Africa) | Globe Earth = 11,000km, Flat Earth = ~26,000km
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I'd like to join in, but there seems to be a lack of available flights at the moment due to .. you know .. the pandemic and such.
I spent some time on it, but gave up. Sorry.
Try searching for April/May flights
What are we looking for exactly? Non-stop flights?
If so, in the meantime, I couldn't find any non-stops for the cities you mentioned. But there's a non-stop from Sydney to Johannesburg:
(https://i.imgur.com/hpJhN28.jpg)
No non-stop flights between those destinations - you found this too. Interesting.
Plot the fastest flight route (multiple destinations) you can find between my specified flight paths:
Perth (Australia) ---------> Buenos Aires (Argentina)
Auckland (New Zealand) ---------> Cape town (Africa)
Why is that "interesting"?
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Found this chap. https://twitter.com/AndrewNJHawkins/status/1229047749871452162 (https://twitter.com/AndrewNJHawkins/status/1229047749871452162) Aussie bloke who flew from Sydney to Johannesburg, verified on Twitter. Looks like he left behind schedule and arrived ahead. I know this probably won't prove much, but I'm now checking to see if he posted anything before leaving and after arriving, so I can see if there are timestamps. Will edit with findings.
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I'd like to join in, but there seems to be a lack of available flights at the moment due to .. you know .. the pandemic and such.
I spent some time on it, but gave up. Sorry.
Try searching for April/May flights
What are we looking for exactly? Non-stop flights?
If so, in the meantime, I couldn't find any non-stops for the cities you mentioned. But there's a non-stop from Sydney to Johannesburg:
(https://i.imgur.com/hpJhN28.jpg)
No non-stop flights between those destinations - you found this too. Interesting.
Plot the fastest flight route (multiple destinations) you can find between my specified flight paths:
Perth (Australia) ---------> Buenos Aires (Argentina)
Auckland (New Zealand) ---------> Cape town (Africa)
Why is that "interesting"?
They're only 13,000km and 11,000km away on a globe earth. Can be easily traversed in a one-way flight. At 900km/hr that is a 14.5hr and 12hr flight respectively. Yet they never seem to be traversed in one go and the shortest travel time along each of those flight paths I could find was 29 hours.
Perth (Australia) ---------> Buenos Aires (Argentina) | Globe Earth = 13,000km, Flat Earth = ~25,000km
Auckland (New Zealand) ---------> Cape town (Africa) | Globe Earth = 11,000km, Flat Earth = ~26,000km
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Found this chap. https://twitter.com/AndrewNJHawkins/status/1229047749871452162 (https://twitter.com/AndrewNJHawkins/status/1229047749871452162) Aussie bloke who flew from Sydney to Johannesburg, verified on Twitter. Looks like he left behind schedule and arrived ahead. I know this probably won't prove much, but I'm now checking to see if he posted anything before leaving and after arriving, so I can see if there are timestamps. Will edit with findings.
I'm asking for the following:
Perth (Australia) ---------> Buenos Aires (Argentina)
Auckland (New Zealand) ---------> Cape town (Africa)
Stop trying to deflect with your Sydney to Johannesburg flights.
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Some airlines don't fly direct routes because they don't make sense. If you're doing an long haul flight, you have to be able to fill seats on those planes. Perth and Buenos Aires have a combined total of about 5 million people. Both are moderately substantial population centers. But how many people in Perth have business in Argentina? Same thing with Auckland to Cape Town. Cape Town's fairly big, about 4 million, but Auckland has 1.3 million. Again, would it logistically make sense to operate a direct flight? Or does it make sense to have those people get on other flights that travel between more populated locations- flights which will fill more easily? That's the airline business model.
The flights you asked us to find don't make logistical sense in either world- not enough people to fill flights. But more importantly, the cities you mentioned aren't really cities with airports that are hubs. They have international airports, but regions will typically have certain international airports that serve as gateways to the rest of the world, and will handle a great deal of passengers both direct and transfer- London Heathrow, Dallas Fort Worth, LA International, Sydney International, Johannesburg International.
TL;DR: Direct flights don't exist between those airports because that's not how airlines work and it wouldn't make sense in any world. I've answered your question to the best of my ability, now please answer mine.
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Some airlines don't fly direct routes because they don't make sense. If you're doing an long haul flight, you have to be able to fill seats on those planes. Perth and Buenos Aires have a combined total of about 5 million people. Both are moderately substantial population centers. But how many people in Perth have business in Argentina? Same thing with Auckland to Cape Town. Cape Town's fairly big, about 4 million, but Auckland has 1.3 million. Again, would it logistically make sense to operate a direct flight? Or does it make sense to have those people get on other flights that travel between more populated locations- flights which will fill more easily? That's the airline business model.
The flights you asked us to find don't make logistical sense in either world- not enough people to fill flights. But more importantly, the cities you mentioned aren't really cities with airports that are hubs. They have international airports, but regions will typically have certain international airports that serve as gateways to the rest of the world, and will handle a great deal of passengers both direct and transfer- London Heathrow, Dallas Fort Worth, LA International, Sydney International, Johannesburg International.
TL;DR: Direct flights don't exist between those airports because that's not how airlines work and it wouldn't make sense in any world. I've answered your question to the best of my ability, now please answer mine.
No you have not answered my "question" (Investigation). All you have provided is a long winded explanation as to why you won't participate in my investigation.
Remember I asked you to investigate and plot the fastest available commercial routes of the following 2 flight paths on a globe earth vs a flat earth model (can be multiple stops):
Perth (Australia) ---------> Buenos Aires (Argentina)
Auckland (New Zealand) ---------> Cape town (Africa)
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This metaphor will be rather lengthy and disconnected from the situation, but I think it’s the best way to explain it. Let’s say that an airline is a bakery. They have an oven that they can use to make any kind of cupcake, but it makes them in batches of 500 (around the average seating load of an A380.) Let’s say that somebody who wants to fly from Perth to Buenos Aires is represented by someone who likes caramel carrot cupcakes.
They exist, sure, but there aren’t a lot. If the bakery made a batch of caramel carrot cupcakes, they’d throw most of them out, and lose a lot of money.
You’re saying that because the bakery doesn’t make caramel carrot cupcakes, they can’t make caramel carrot cupcakes, and therefore they can’t make cupcakes with caramel at all. They can. But it makes no sense. However, plenty of people like caramel chocolate cupcakes. And the bakery makes them. I’m showing you a caramel chocolate cupcake. But you keep on asking why there aren’t any caramel carrot cupcakes. I'd go on, but that would be stretching the metaphor.
I'll participate in your investigation, though. For the sake of argument. But just a couple of quick things before I start:
1. Have you already found these routes, and if so could you just post them and let us check them? It would save a great deal of time for all involved.
2. As an experienced flyer, let me just add before the debate starts that lengthy layovers are common on lesser-flown routes, because plane schedules don't always line up. You can spend a comparable amount of time in airports as you do in the air. I had a 12 hour layover in Dallas once, which wasn't fun. Just in case I see where this is going.
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Some airlines don't fly direct routes because they don't make sense. If you're doing an long haul flight, you have to be able to fill seats on those planes. Perth and Buenos Aires have a combined total of about 5 million people. Both are moderately substantial population centers. But how many people in Perth have business in Argentina? Same thing with Auckland to Cape Town. Cape Town's fairly big, about 4 million, but Auckland has 1.3 million. Again, would it logistically make sense to operate a direct flight? Or does it make sense to have those people get on other flights that travel between more populated locations- flights which will fill more easily? That's the airline business model.
The flights you asked us to find don't make logistical sense in either world- not enough people to fill flights. But more importantly, the cities you mentioned aren't really cities with airports that are hubs. They have international airports, but regions will typically have certain international airports that serve as gateways to the rest of the world, and will handle a great deal of passengers both direct and transfer- London Heathrow, Dallas Fort Worth, LA International, Sydney International, Johannesburg International.
TL;DR: Direct flights don't exist between those airports because that's not how airlines work and it wouldn't make sense in any world. I've answered your question to the best of my ability, now please answer mine.
No you have not answered my "question" (Investigation). All you have provided is a long winded explanation as to why you won't participate in my investigation.
Remember I asked you to investigate and plot the fastest available commercial routes of the following 2 flight paths on a globe earth vs a flat earth model (can be multiple stops):
Perth (Australia) ---------> Buenos Aires (Argentina)
Auckland (New Zealand) ---------> Cape town (Africa)
I don't understand what this "investigation" is. Is it that there isn't currently a non-stop between Perth and Buenos Aires? So what? Who says there has to be? Are there non-stops between every city in the world?
What about Sydney to Johanassberg. That's about 11,000 km? Is the issue 12,000km versus 11,000km?
Why don’t you plot out what you want and demonstrate what it is you are looking for. I already plotted a southern route out, not sure why you are dismissing it.
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If I understand the goal of the investigation correctly, it is this- because of Perth's location, the fastest route goes from Perth, to Quatar, to Sao Paolo, to Buenos Aires. It looks like a big arc towards the equator, and I understand what he's getting at- it does look like one that would take place on a flat Earth. I haven't even looked at the other one, but I'd wager it's similar.
But these examples are very much cherry picked. The aim is not to show that there are no non-stops, but that these flight paths make more sense when plotted on flat earth. If your only concern is distance as the crow flies. Otherwise, it's more complex. Perth's in the middle of bloody nowhere, and it's just about as easy to fly one way as the other. It's just a matter of logistics. The fastest routes for these happen to take large detours because of scheduling. But there are so many other routes that... don't do this. Case in point, direct from Johannesburg to Sydney.
BTW, I found a route that doesn't go super far north from Auckland to Cape Town. It's just slightly more expensive- Auckland to Sydney (3 h 50 min), Sydney to Johannesburg https://www.expedia.com/Flights-Search?leg1=from%3ASydney%20Airport%20%28SYD%29%2Cto%3AJohannesburg%20%28JNB%20-%20All%20Airports%29%2Cdeparture%3A8%2F8%2F2022TANYT&mode=search&options=carrier%3A%2A%2Ccabinclass%3A%2Cmaxhops%3A1%2Cnopenalty%3AN&pageId=0&passengers=adults%3A1%2Cchildren%3A0%2Cinfantinlap%3AN&trip=oneway (https://www.expedia.com/Flights-Search?leg1=from%3ASydney%20Airport%20%28SYD%29%2Cto%3AJohannesburg%20%28JNB%20-%20All%20Airports%29%2Cdeparture%3A8%2F8%2F2022TANYT&mode=search&options=carrier%3A%2A%2Ccabinclass%3A%2Cmaxhops%3A1%2Cnopenalty%3AN&pageId=0&passengers=adults%3A1%2Cchildren%3A0%2Cinfantinlap%3AN&trip=oneway)(14 h 5 min), Johannesburg to Cape Town (2 h 10 min). Total of 20 h 5 min, but keep in mind that doesn't include the time it takes to get up and down from cruising altitude, as well as runway time.
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As has been said, due to the pandemic, especially the travel restrictions in Australia and NZ, aviation is nowhere near where it was in this area pre-pandemic.
If you go to both Perth and Auckland airports’ website departures page, you will see the selection of destinations each airport serves direct.
It’s far fewer than pre-pandemic.
Such routes as you suggest will, at the moment, always be routed through hubs such as Dubai or Singapore.
Why are you specifically asking for those routes?
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All you have provided is a long winded explanation as to why you won't participate in my investigation.
... and I gave you a short-winded one.
If sufficient people do this, with various explanations as to why, this will tell you something....
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All you have provided is a long winded explanation as to why you won't participate in my investigation.
... and I gave you a short-winded one.
If sufficient people do this, with various explanations as to why, this will tell you something....
Unbelievable so it's either covid or Putin's fault LOL. Am I talking to the channel 9 news?
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Perth (Australia) ---------> Buenos Aires (Argentina)
Auckland (New Zealand) ---------> Cape town (Africa)
Filter for "fastest". Now click on any of the first few and plot the flight path on a globe earth and then on a flat earth map. Report back with results.
As others have mentioned, why are you cherry picking those particular routes?
The lack of a direct flight between 2 cities is evidence of nothing more than a lack of demand for one.
Where there is a direct flight the route can be used to investigate claims about the shape of the earth.
Where there isn't it doesn't tell you anything of much use other than how airlines operate and where their hubs are.
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I'd like to join in, but there seems to be a lack of available flights at the moment due to .. you know .. the pandemic and such.
I spent some time on it, but gave up. Sorry.
Try searching for April/May flights
What are we looking for exactly? Non-stop flights?
If so, in the meantime, I couldn't find any non-stops for the cities you mentioned. But there's a non-stop from Sydney to Johannesburg:
(https://i.imgur.com/hpJhN28.jpg)
Perth (Australia) <--------> Buenos Aires (Argentina)
(https://i.imgur.com/bXWb9CH.jpg)
Investigation:
Now let’s see which way the fastest available commercial flight route takes us…
1.
(https://i.imgur.com/iAEPgYM.png)
2.
(https://i.imgur.com/4FD9uNr.png)
3.
(https://i.imgur.com/H0OLr72.png)
4. Plotting on our maps:
PER Perth --> DOH Hamad International --> GRU Sao Paulo --> AEP Buenos Aires
(https://i.imgur.com/y1Nw7Ht.jpg)
Auckland (New Zealand) <------> Cape town (Africa)
(https://i.imgur.com/jbRbzZd.jpg)
Investigation:
Now let’s see which way the fastest available commercial flight route takes us…
1.
(https://i.imgur.com/VNELMrg.png)
2.
(https://i.imgur.com/qcEf0Rx.png)
3.
(https://i.imgur.com/WRG8eFs.png)
4. Plotting on our maps:
AKL Auckland --> SYD Sydney --> SIN Singapore --> JNB Johannesburg --> CPT Cape Town
(https://i.imgur.com/HnMTFke.jpg)
But don’t take my word for it.. try it yourself. You’ll actually find some flight paths that seem to go right over the North pole on a flat earth map..
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Hang on, you want us to use Auckland to Cape Town, which, on your itinerary, includes a Sydney to Jo’burg (over two legs) journey, but not Sydney to Jo’burg itself, which actually has direct flights?
Any reason why?
Please do some reading on airline hub-and-spoke operations.
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Perth (Australia) ---------> Buenos Aires (Argentina)
Auckland (New Zealand) ---------> Cape town (Africa)
Filter for "fastest". Now click on any of the first few and plot the flight path on a globe earth and then on a flat earth map. Report back with results.
As others have mentioned, why are you cherry picking those particular routes?
The lack of a direct flight between 2 cities is evidence of nothing more than a lack of demand for one.
Where there is a direct flight the route can be used to investigate claims about the shape of the earth.
Where there isn't it doesn't tell you anything of much use other than how airlines operate and where their hubs are.
Cherry picking? Find me 2 airports on a flat earth map that are further away from each other than the ones I chose.
By contrast this also means that the two routes I chose are very close together on a round earth map at the southern hemisphere. The fastest commercial route offered allows us to see whether we live on a round or flat earth.
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Cherry picking? Find me 2 airports on a flat earth map that are further away from each other than the ones I chose.
Santiago and Sydney are pretty much opposite sides. Pre pandemic there was a direct flight between them, here's a review of it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8a1pomnMtM
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Cherry picking? Find me 2 airports on a flat earth map that are further away from each other than the ones I chose.
Santiago and Sydney are pretty much opposite sides. Pre pandemic there was a direct flight between them, here's a review of it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8a1pomnMtM
I want you to entertain in your mind for a minute what it would be like if the world was flat and government authorities (and higher powers) were trying to hide this fact. How easily could they pay a youtuber like that guy to film a staged video?
I want you to find me an actual one way flight that I can book in myself. Surely you can find a direct flight this year. Let's leave Putin and Covid out of it.
Perth (Australia) ---------> Buenos Aires (Argentina)
Auckland (New Zealand) ---------> Cape town (Africa)
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New question.. Why are there never any planes in the Southern Hemisphere on flight radar?
(https://i.imgur.com/Z0NNfuM.png)
Let me guess.. Covid or Putin.
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Let me guess.. Covid or Putin.
You guess wrong.
https://www.businessinsider.com/90-of-people-live-in-the-northern-hemisphere-2012-5?r=US&IR=T
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New question.. Why are there never any planes in the Southern Hemisphere on flight radar?
(https://i.imgur.com/Z0NNfuM.png)
Let me guess.. Covid or Putin.
Many reasons.
As has been said, the vast majority of people are in the Northern hemisphere.
Also, there are more population centres further to the north (in the N hemisphere) than they are to the south (in the S hemisphere).
You just have to look at your screenshot of FR24…. Look at the location of the equator, then look at the amount of land mass above that dotted line and compare it to the land mass below the line.
But given all of that, the effect of Covid is significant. It’s impact on countries such as S Africa, New Zealand and Australia over the past few years, aviation is nowhere near what it was in 2019 when there were more direct flights between S hemisphere cities than there are now. Think about where the flights you think should be in the areas of your question marks would be flying to and from. S. America and Australia/NZ, Aus/NZ and S Africa, S. Africa and S America.
I work at London Heathrow airport, before Covid there were around 30 flights a day (so maybe 6000 passenger seats per day) to New York, because London and New York are incredibly important global cities with many business links and high travel demand.
I don’t think one can compare that city pair to Perth and Buenos Aires.
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New question.. Why are there never any planes in the Southern Hemisphere on flight radar?
(https://i.imgur.com/Z0NNfuM.png)
Let me guess.. Covid or Putin.
Many reasons.
As has been said, the vast majority of people are in the Northern hemisphere.
Also, there are more population centres further to the north (in the N hemisphere) than they are to the south (in the S hemisphere).
You just have to look at your screenshot of FR24…. Look at the location of the equator, then look at the amount of populated land mass above that dotted line and compare it to the populated land mass below the line.
But given all of that, the effect of Covid is significant. It’s impact on countries such as S Africa, New Zealand and Australia over the past few years, aviation is nowhere near what it was in 2019 when there were more direct flights between S hemisphere cities than there are now. Think about where the flights you think should be in the areas of your question marks would be flying to and from. S. America and Australia/NZ, Aus/NZ and S Africa, S. Africa and S America.
I work at London Heathrow airport, before Covid there were around 30 flights a day (so maybe 6000 passenger seats per day) to New York, because London and New York are incredibly important global cities with many business links and high travel demand.
I don’t think one can compare that city pair to Perth and Buenos Aires.
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New question.. Why are there never any planes in the Southern Hemisphere on flight radar?
"Flightradar24 relies on volunteers around the world for the majority of our coverage." (https://www.flightradar24.com/how-it-works#:~:text=Flightradar24%20combines%20data%20from%20several,com%20and%20in%20Flightradar24%20apps.)
"You can help us increase the flight tracking coverage in your area. You can build your own receiver, or even apply to host a receiver that Flightradar24 provides for free." (https://www.flightradar24.com/add-coverage)
There's less land mass in the Southern Hemisphere, so fewer places where people can host receivers.
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You've yet to address any of my responses, by the way- especially the route that I planned that, I don't know, does actually take you much more directly. Airplanes aren't like cars- a flight will only be scheduled where it makes sense. An airline will always plan the routes which make it the most money, and that doesn't include a direct long-haul flight between two non-hub airports. I understand that these routes look a bit wacky, but that makes sense when you take into account the actual logistics of airline operation.
But there are plenty of other direct routes in the southern hemisphere. Here are the largest ones I found, using https://www.flightconnections.com/airlines.
Sydney to Johannesberg- currently in operation
Sydney to Santiago- last flown in 2020
Auckland to Santiago- currently in operation
Perth to Mauritius- last flown in 2020
Notice anything? Half of these flights stopped due to Covid. The entire airline industry, in fact, has been shifting, because airlines figured out that operating super long flights that weren't between hubs made no since. Like AATW said, 90% of people live in the northern hemisphere. Additionally, only 33% of the world's land is in the southern hemisphere, and a third of that is Antarctica. It makes more sense to route people through routes that are traveled more often, barring a few cases.
Even shorter flights are still wildly different.
Melbourne to Perth is a 4 hour flight, and on a globe Earth model it's a 1,677 mile flight. Including a half hour of taxi and hold time, and you get 1,677 miles in 3 hours and 30 minutes, which works out to about 480 mph, or a perfectly reasonable airline cruising speed.
On a flat earth it's 4,300 miles. 4,300 miles in 3 hours and 30 minutes works out to 1,228 mph, or mach 1.6.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to Melbourne. I've always wanted to fly on a Concorde.
(Addition- new replies came while I was typing- the two direct flights that I mentioned which are still running operate one a day or less, so it's relatively rare to have a plane in that section of the Pacific)
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New question.. Why are there never any planes in the Southern Hemisphere on flight radar?
"Flightradar24 relies on volunteers around the world for the majority of our coverage." (https://www.flightradar24.com/how-it-works#:~:text=Flightradar24%20combines%20data%20from%20several,com%20and%20in%20Flightradar24%20apps.)
"You can help us increase the flight tracking coverage in your area. You can build your own receiver, or even apply to host a receiver that Flightradar24 provides for free." (https://www.flightradar24.com/add-coverage)
There's less land mass in the Southern Hemisphere, so fewer places where people can host receivers.
I will mention, transponder data for flights is fairly publicly available. There are just fewer direct flights in the Southern hemisphere- less landmass and people.
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Cherry picking? Find me 2 airports on a flat earth map that are further away from each other than the ones I chose.
Santiago and Sydney are pretty much opposite sides. Pre pandemic there was a direct flight between them, here's a review of it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8a1pomnMtM
I want you to entertain in your mind for a minute what it would be like if the world was flat and government authorities (and higher powers) were trying to hide this fact. How easily could they pay a youtuber like that guy to film a staged video?
A video of a flight from Santiago to Sydney taken by a flat earther, wielding a compass he clearly doesn't understand, is linked to in the wiki as evidence of the earth being flat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6t6LbZXXPM
https://wiki.tfes.org/Flight_Anomalies
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Cherry picking? Find me 2 airports on a flat earth map that are further away from each other than the ones I chose.
Current record holder for longest non-stop flight - SIN to JFK, 18 hours, 15,300km
(https://i.imgur.com/bCq3twX.png)
Wrong route, doesn't match reality:
(https://i.imgur.com/8WhCCgb.jpg)
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New question.. Why are there never any planes in the Southern Hemisphere on flight radar?
As AATW pointed out, "As of 2015, the Northern Hemisphere is home to approximately 6.4 billion people which is around 87.0% of the earth's total human population of 7.3 billion people.[8][9][10]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Hemisphere
Do the airline economics.
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A video of a flight from Santiago to Sydney taken by a flat earther, wielding a compass he clearly doesn't understand, is linked to in the wiki as evidence of the earth being flat.
Ha. Nice.
It is interesting how this conversation has gone. It starts with a FE person demanding we look in to flight routes between two pairs of specific cities. When it’s patiently explained that there aren’t direct flights between any two arbitrary cities because of demand and hub-spoke models the FE person says he picked those pairs of cities because of the distance. He then challenges us to find a pair of cities further apart and when that’s done and a video review of someone taking that flight is provided it’s simply implied that could be fake. The logic contradictions and goalpost shifting are bewildering
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Again, as others have mentioned, airlines are only going to provide direct services if there is sufficient demand, hence, you want to go from Perth to Buenos Aires you'll probably have to take a route from Perth to the middle east (which is a popular route), then on to BA (another popular route). Its like I can't get a bus from Town A to Town B; I have to get a bus from Town A to City C, then another bus from City C to Town B.
However (and its a big however), take a look at this:
https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/qantas-repatriation-flight-lands-in-history-books/#:~:text=A%20record%20breaking%20repatriation%20flight,25%20minutes%20in%20the%20air.
Whilst Covid was most rampant, the Australian government was going to great lengths to repatriate its citizens who were stranded abroad. One such group of 107 Australian citizens was identified in-and-around Buenos Aires, so the government chartered Qantas to pick them up and bring them home. They sent one of their 787 Dreamliners. It flew as QF14 in October 2021 and took around 17hrs 25min. The flight was complicated in some respects because it could not land at the nearest Australian airport; it had to fly direct to Darwin, which is the location of Australia's immigration and isolation unit, a distance of 15000km. Because of the relatively low pax load they could carry maximum fuel, so did it non-stop.
You can see that the flight went south from BA, across part of Antarctica, and north to Darwin, just like the theoretical Great Circle. It should also be fairly apparent from the chart that, if the destination had been Perth, it would have been a similar distance/time.
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Hand-held compasses don't work in an aircraft; the fuselage is a big faraday cage, only with added RF electromagnetic interference. An aircraft's compass-detector is located remotely on a wingtip or in the tail. We aren't even allowed to use ferrous screws in the mountings. They are so sensitive that when we set them up (a "compass swing"), the operator has to divest himself of all metalwork like phone, watch, jewellery.
Some aircraft still have a standby compass mounted in the cockpit for emergency use, but it is calibrated to only be accurate with basic essential electrical systems operating. Switching on windshield deice, for instance, will typically introduce a 50 degree error.
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Hand-held compasses don't work in an aircraft; the fuselage is a big faraday cage, only with added RF electromagnetic interference. An aircraft's compass-detector is located remotely on a wingtip or in the tail. We aren't even allowed to use ferrous screws in the mountings. They are so sensitive that when we set them up (a "compass swing"), the operator has to divest himself of all metalwork like phone, watch, jewellery.
Some aircraft still have a standby compass mounted in the cockpit for emergency use, but it is calibrated to only be accurate with basic essential electrical systems operating. Switching on windshield deice, for instance, will typically introduce a 50 degree error.
I had a fairly lengthy and entirely predictable discussion with TB about that very topic in another thread. I see two possibilities: either the numerous sources of interference as you rightly describe (hence the need to ‘compass swing’ calibrate traditional compass systems) or, and i must admit this is my preferred option, the compass was working perfectly well and was indicating precisely what it should have done, given the massive discrepancy between true and mag in the area our intrepid flat earther was flying over! It is almost perfect - look it up.
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A video of a flight from Santiago to Sydney taken by a flat earther, wielding a compass he clearly doesn't understand, is linked to in the wiki as evidence of the earth being flat.
Ha. Nice.
It is interesting how this conversation has gone. It starts with a FE person demanding we look in to flight routes between two pairs of specific cities. When it’s patiently explained that there aren’t direct flights between any two arbitrary cities because of demand and hub-spoke models the FE person says he picked those pairs of cities because of the distance. He then challenges us to find a pair of cities further apart and when that’s done and a video review of someone taking that flight is provided it’s simply implied that could be fake. The logic contradictions and goalpost shifting are bewildering
I picked the two furthest flight routes on a Flat Earth map. But on a Globe Earth map they are quite short (12,000km and 12,500km). The fact that there are no direct flights is part of my point.
I then proved that even the shortest flights available travel the longest way possible on a Round Earth map and quite efficiently on a Flat Earth map.
The target has never moved. I asked you to find me a flight I can book.
If you can't understand what I have done then that's evidence that your faith in a round earth is grounded in nothing other than blind belief as you are unable to even conceptualise in your mind basic contrasts between how flight routes on a Flat Earth vs Round Earth should behave.
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4. Plotting on our maps:
PER Perth --> DOH Hamad International --> GRU Sao Paulo --> AEP Buenos Aires
(https://i.imgur.com/y1Nw7Ht.jpg)
The actual flight paths are vastly different than what you drew with your graphic.
(https://i.imgur.com/nVKx91l.png)
Here's what it looks like on a globe. Pretty much a match, wouldn't you say?
(https://i.imgur.com/ebXs7jO.png)
Why do you have the flight from Qatar to Sao Paulo arcing way up over Spain? Here's the actual route:
(https://i.imgur.com/UKYR4TD.png)
Again, pretty much a 1-1 match on a globe. Go figure...
(https://i.imgur.com/sgyAGWv.png)
Do you know what a map projection is?
The fact that there are no direct flights is part of my point.
How is that a valid point for, well, anything? You are arguing that there isn't a direct flight between two cities. So what? Are there direct flights between all cities on the planet?
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I picked the two furthest flight routes on a Flat Earth map. But on a Globe Earth map they are quite short (12,000km and 12,500km). The fact that there are no direct flights is part of my point.
Makes sense, thank you for clarifying your argument. Let it be known that we've explained the reasoning behind the lack of direct flights between these places- it's the same reason there won't always be a direct train line connecting two nearby stops. Doesn't make sense to run the tracks if nobody's going to use it. This is doubly true for planes, because they cost a lot more per flight than a train does. Airlines operate flights on fairly thin profit margins, if seats aren't getting filled, the route will be canceled.
I then proved that even the shortest flights available travel the longest way possible on a Round Earth map and quite efficiently on a Flat Earth map.
I believe you're aware that these are multistage flights. stack's just shown that your routes aren't quite optimized, but you haven't responded to that as far as I'm aware. Additionally, I did find a shorter route for Auckland to Cape Town that corresponds quite nicely to the Globe Earth, but I'm not sure you saw that. And again, there's a reason that route is circuitous, and it's not because it costs the airlines more.
The target has never moved. I asked you to find me a flight I can book.
We've told you- I've told you- a perfectly suitable explanation for why a direct flight doesn't exist- you dismissed it. Please address it. You are not the moderator of this debate, you're a participant. You've been told why airlines don't fly those routes, and crucially you've been shown routes similar to the ones you proposed which do exist and can be booked- and you dismissed them.
If you can't understand what I have done then that's evidence that your faith in a round earth is grounded in nothing other than blind belief as you are unable to even conceptualise in your mind basic contrasts between how flight routes on a Flat Earth vs Round Earth should behave.
A touch of disjointed reasoning. You've explained your argument a bit better now, and thanks for that. But please refrain from blind attacks. Or whatever. I'm not a mod, it's not my place to police your behavior.
You talk of blind belief, but then you repeat a single talking point regardless of what others bring up. Yes, these flights take odd routes, because they're odd flights to take. Book a private jet if you want to fly directly from Perth to Buenos Aires, because practically nobody else will. Those few travelers from Perth who do go will hop on a plane to DOH Hamad International, with hundreds of other travelers who are going to Cairo, and Athens. Then they'll fly to to Sao Paolo with hundreds of other passengers who are going to Sao Paolo or Bogota, and came from Bali, and Sydney. And then they'll take a little bunny hop to their final destination. Routes don't exist to get you where you want to go ASAP, they exist to fill seats. That's how they should behave, in any world.
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The actual flight paths are vastly different than what you drew with your graphic.
Funny thing, that, he drew them that way to be straight on a flat Earth. Just saying.
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The actual flight paths are vastly different than what you drew with your graphic.
Funny thing, that, he drew them that way to be straight on a flat Earth. Just saying.
Ahh very good that you understand that.
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So let’s get something straight… you come and pick two routes you know don’t have direct flights, in order to make your argument work. But you know it doesn’t, so then you falsify the routes the non-direct flights take, in an attempt to shore up that argument?
Nice.
I’ll ask again, why not start from an actual flight route that’s followed by actual flights?
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If you can't understand what I have done then that's evidence that your faith in a round earth is grounded in nothing other than blind belief as you are unable to even conceptualise in your mind basic contrasts between how flight routes on a Flat Earth vs Round Earth should behave.
I understand what you've done, it's just that it's meaningless. Multiple people have explained why it is.
You picked two cities which are a long way apart on a FE map, found there are no direct flights between them and decided that is evidence for a FE.
It is not and it has been explained to you why it isn't.
There are two train stations near me. I just looked up a route between them on a route planner and it's an hour's journey by train including 2 stops.
You could walk between those stations in 10 minutes. Aha! It must be a great conspiracy!
Except no, obviously not. The stations are on different lines, to get between them you need to go along one line, change a couple of times and then back on the other. The lack of a direct train line between those two stations doesn't prove anything other than that's how they built those train lines.
Now obviously planes are a bit different, they can in theory go between any 2 points. BUT there are practical considerations for airlines - they have to consider demand for particular routes, fuel efficiency, political considerations in terms of airspace, distance to the nearest airport in case of an emergency. Not every airport can handle every aircraft because of runway length. There are lots of factors which go in to route planning for airlines.
I said this above and you ignored it - where there IS a direct flight between two cities you can use data from those flights to investigate the distances between places and whether they match better with a FE or Globe model. Where there is no direct flight it doesn't prove much of anything other than there obviously isn't enough demand for one. And I'm sorry that the pandemic means that you can't currently book a flight between Santiago and Sydney, I picked one account of one, I'm sure you can find others. And hopefully that route will resume at some point in the next year or two and you can then experience it for yourself if you're really serious about investigating this.
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I picked the two furthest flight routes on a Flat Earth map. But on a Globe Earth map they are quite short (12,000km and 12,500km). The fact that there are no direct flights is part of my point.
But we've shown that a) the lack of direct flights between two points doesn't necessarily mean a great deal and b) there have been very similar direct flights, such as Sydney - Santiago, in the past. You then went off into conspiracy territory, and then I pointed out that the very same route has been used on this website as evidence for a FE. You haven't addressed this point at all, but everybody reading this can see it.
I then proved that even the shortest flights available travel the longest way possible on a Round Earth map and quite efficiently on a Flat Earth map.
I'm not really clear what you mean by this - what do you mean by 'shortest flights available travel the longest way possible'?
The target has never moved. I asked you to find me a flight I can book.
Why is this the standard of proof you demand? Is the fact that Covid has completely trashed flight schedules not credible? Is the abundance of evidence that, for example, Sydney - Santiago flights have happened not enough for you?
If you can't understand what I have done then that's evidence that your faith in a round earth is grounded in nothing other than blind belief as you are unable to even conceptualise in your mind basic contrasts between how flight routes on a Flat Earth vs Round Earth should behave.
There are hundreds of flights you could look at if you were genuinely interested in this stuff. Take flights across Australia. You can book flights between Brisbane and Perth, for example. The great circle distance on the globe is around 2000nm, which is about 2300 miles or 3700Km. It takes around 4:50 hours or 5:20 hours, depending on which way you fly. If you take the dimensions of the monopole FE map as given in the wiki, then the east-west distance across Australia would be roughly 2.5 times as great as it is on the globe, so around 5000nm. So in order to do that flight in around 5 hours, airliners would have to make a ground speed of around 1000 knots, or around 1150mph, which is roughly twice as fast as subsonic airliners can travel. And no, you can't claim 'anomalous winds', because they do it in both directions, at the same time.
Even if you wish to cling on to a FE argument, how can you look at data like that and believe the monopole FE map to be correct?
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A video of a flight from Santiago to Sydney taken by a flat earther, wielding a compass he clearly doesn't understand, is linked to in the wiki as evidence of the earth being flat.
Ha. Nice.
It is interesting how this conversation has gone. It starts with a FE person demanding we look in to flight routes between two pairs of specific cities. When it’s patiently explained that there aren’t direct flights between any two arbitrary cities because of demand and hub-spoke models the FE person says he picked those pairs of cities because of the distance. He then challenges us to find a pair of cities further apart and when that’s done and a video review of someone taking that flight is provided it’s simply implied that could be fake. The logic contradictions and goalpost shifting are bewildering
I picked the two furthest flight routes on a Flat Earth map. But on a Globe Earth map they are quite short (12,000km and 12,500km). The fact that there are no direct flights is part of my point.
I then proved that even the shortest flights available travel the longest way possible on a Round Earth map and quite efficiently on a Flat Earth map.
The target has never moved. I asked you to find me a flight I can book.
If you can't understand what I have done then that's evidence that your faith in a round earth is grounded in nothing other than blind belief as you are unable to even conceptualise in your mind basic contrasts between how flight routes on a Flat Earth vs Round Earth should behave.
No response to my Reply#36? I presented a 15000km flight from Buenos Aires to Darwin, which trumps your 12500km. A flight which actually occurred, non-stop, in 2021, by an Antarctic route.
What, can't book it? Perhaps if you're not interested in other peoples answers you may be asking the wrong question.
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I'm pretty sure you won't get a reply as this seems to be just a troll attempt considering the weakness of the argument:
- "There's no non-stop flight between City A and City B, the world must be a cube!"
It's basically the Mark Sargent argument from like 2015 that has been dismantled 100's of times. There are far better arguments to be had, this one is basically in the kindergarten realm of FE stuff.
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The actual flight paths are vastly different than what you drew with your graphic.
Funny thing, that, he drew them that way to be straight on a flat Earth. Just saying.
Ahh very good that you understand that.
Just wanted to reply- I was off yesterday on a trip to the zoo. The fact you drew them this way reflects a problem which a lot of Flat Earthers and Round Earthers have. This is confirmation bias. The fact is, the flights don't take the routes that would make more sense on a flat earth. Like stack said, their routes make more sense on a round earth. The overall routes for these flights do make a fair bit of sense in a flat world because they seem to take a fairly direct route, and I'll concede that. But in a round world they also make sense, because of the economics of the airline business.
You have achoice when you encounter information that doesn't conform with your world view. You can discard, ignore, or reshape it until your worldview is untouched. That's not a sound method. Or, you can examine it to find out why it works that way. Everything is more than skin deep.
[Edit: I had a section here addressing an argument I misremembered as being part of this thread. I've reposted in the correct channel]
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It is curious to me how you only mention those two non-stop flights, but you Ignore all the others with stopovers that refute terraplanning.
I was reading and Norwegian Air Argentina applied for and got approval to fly from Buenos Aires to Perth (direct non-stop). This flight would have Antarctica as a route.
However the Norwegian Air Argentina planes were stored in 2020 after the consequences of the Pandemic, and as of today (2023) they are still not operating (at least, so far).
There are many long-haul non-stop flight routes between different continents in the southern hemisphere, without crossing the northern hemisphere. These routes are only possible if the Earth is a sphere, and impossible if the Earth is flat.
Sydney, Australia - Johannesburg, South Africa
Sydney, Australia - Santiago, Chile
Perth, Australia - Johannesburg, South Africa
Auckland, New Zealand - Santiago, Chile
Auckland, New Zealand - Buenos Aires, Argentina
Melbourne, Australia - Santiago, Chile
Sydney, Australia - Buenos Aires, Argentina (route no longer operational)
Johannesburg, South Africa - São Paulo, Brazil
Luanda, Angola - São Paulo, Brazil
We can easily check the existence of these flight routes using any travel booking website.
What happens, is that terraplanists like you who only rely on 2 flights but Ignore the 9 that I mentioned, shows that you rely on the so called "fallacy of incomplete evidence" also called "cherry picking".
This fallacy is committed when you point to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position while ignoring a significant portion of related and similar cases or data that may contradict that position.
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Here are a couple from the list. Comparing GE to FE using Google Globe & Mercator projections and the two most common FE "maps" I've seen, the North Pole Centered Lambert Azimuthal Equidistant & Bi-Polar Lambert azimuthal equal-area.
(https://i.imgur.com/QkzFn7E.jpg)
The reasons I've seen from some FEr's are:
- The flights are fake, don't exist
- One from the other site, same as above but with a twist - In order to cull the homeless populations, airlines load them on to these fake flights, fly out over the ocean a bit, flight attendants shove the homeless out the cabin door, then turn around and head back to the origination airport
- The GE maps are wrong/fake in terms of the paths allegedly taken
- The distances are wrong/fake
Interesting to note as well, the two common FE "maps", the North Pole Centered Lambert Azimuthal Equidistant & Bi-Polar Lambert azimuthal equal-area, are actually projections from a globe. I'm not sure how FE reconciles this.
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Interesting and topical, don't think I've noticed this before; Latam's 800/801 outbound/inbound Dreamliners between Santiago and Auckland are both airborne at the same time (registration CC-BGD westbound as LAN801, CC-BGB LAN800 eastbound). Google Maps shows the Great Circle route reaches a maximum declination of around 53deg S; one flight is currently at 47deg S, the other at 54deg S.
Presumably one of them is benefitting from Tom's winds.
(Not sure if the other is full of hapless hobos on a one-way ticket to Palookaville).
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Its not easy to fly over antarcticaa you know.
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Its not easy to fly over antarcticaa you know.
Why?
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Its not easy to fly over antarcticaa you know.
Why?
Mostly because there really isn't much need to do so. There just aren't that many great circle routes between destinations in the southern hemisphere to justify the extra cold weather precautions that would be required on such flights.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_route#Operational_considerations