[Rama Set]

If you had read the thread and not jumped in, you'd have realised we were specifically talking about FLAT sundials. Then you interrupted moving the goal posts again.

Polar axis sundials were brought in specifically to rebut your claims about the hourly 15^o movement of the sun.

We have poles on a flat earth to. All you are doing is aligning north south and angling based on your latitude (sun slant from the equator).  Flat earth has no issue with sundials like this, any more than round earth has an issue with flat sundials. It is just reverse two-way geometry.

As has been simply demonstrated elsewhere, latitude doesn't work on a FE.  Either the latitude lines change distance from one another or the sun's altitude changes radically based on your latitude.  Both of these cases are easily shown not to be the case by simple observation and simple logic.

[Dr David Thork]

If you had read the thread and not jumped in, you'd have realised we were specifically talking about FLAT sundials. Then you interrupted moving the goal posts again.

Polar axis sundials were brought in specifically to rebut your claims about the hourly 15^o movement of the sun.

We have poles on a flat earth to. All you are doing is aligning north south and angling based on your latitude (sun slant from the equator).  Flat earth has no issue with sundials like this, any more than round earth has an issue with flat sundials. It is just reverse two-way geometry.

As has been simply demonstrated elsewhere, latitude doesn't work on a FE.  Either the latitude lines change distance from one another or the sun's altitude changes radically based on your latitude.  Both of these cases are easily shown not to be the case by simple observation and simple logic.

Latitude does work on a flat earth. Please look at the map in our FAQ. If you want to make another thread about latitude, please do so. This one is about sundials and belongs to flat earth now.

[Curious Squirrel]

Apology accepted.

An odd way to apologize for misreading another statement's and intent, but I'll take what I can get.

Reminder, looking for hard proof for the sun moving at 15° degrees an hour along the solar ecliptic, different than the vertical ecliptic mentioned/referenced by Thork earlier in the thread. Having a small touch of trouble as he doesn't seem ready to accept the special build sundial posted by Jocelyn.

[Rama Set]

Latitude does work on a flat earth. Please look at the map in our FAQ.

Incorrect.  Either the sun's altitude fluctuates based on your latitude, which is nonsensical, or the distance between latitude lines varies which is does not agree with real life navigation.

If you want to make another thread about latitude, please do so. This one is about sundials and belongs to flat earth now.

Seeing as latitude is integral to the accuracy of many types of sundials, it is entirely appropriate to bring up.

[Dr David Thork]

If you want to make another thread about latitude, please do so. This one is about sundials and belongs to flat earth now.

Seeing as latitude is integral to the accuracy of many types of sundials, it is entirely appropriate to bring up.

To bring it up yes, to want to discuss how latitude works on a flat earth is another topic. You have to accept that is does work in this thread so we can work on sundials. If you wish to abandon sundials as you believe the real proof lies in latitude, that's a separate thread.

Latitude does work on a flat earth. Please look at the map in our FAQ.

Incorrect.  Either the sun's altitude fluctuates based on your latitude, which is nonsensical, or the distance between latitude lines varies which is does not agree with real life navigation.

Pretty sure the sun's altitude (read declination) does fluctuate depending on your latitude. The distance between lines of latitude do not vary on a flat earth. Again I refer you to the FAQ map and a new thread about latitude.

Apology accepted.

An odd way to apologize for misreading another statement's and intent, but I'll take what I can get.

Reminder, looking for hard proof for the sun moving at 15° degrees an hour along the solar ecliptic, different than the vertical ecliptic mentioned/referenced by Thork earlier in the thread. Having a small touch of trouble as he doesn't seem ready to accept the special build sundial posted by Jocelyn.

I was the one looking for hard proof. The real world times between the various degrees of twilight blew that round earth assumption apart. I was left wanting though. 

[Tom Haws]

BT, we need to agree on something. Do you agree that on a flat earth, the sun does not advance at 15 degrees per hour, and that on a round earth, the sun must advance at 15 degrees per hour? This is what you seem to have been saying repeatedly throughout this thread. Do you agree?

[Dr David Thork]

BT, we need to agree on something. Do you agree that on a flat earth, the sun does not advance at 15 degrees per hour, and that on a round earth, the sun must advance at 15 degrees per hour? This is what you seem to have been saying repeatedly throughout this thread. Do you agree?

Flat earth has the benefit of slant angles from a very close sun. I never got a round earth answer to explain why 15 degrees isn't observed contrary to theory.

[Tom Haws]

BT, we need to agree on something. Do you agree that on a flat earth, the sun does not advance at 15 degrees per hour, and that on a round earth, the sun must advance at 15 degrees per hour? This is what you seem to have been saying repeatedly throughout this thread. Do you agree?

Flat earth has the benefit of slant angles from a very close sun. I never got a round earth answer to explain why 15 degrees isn't observed contrary to theory.

Can you just answer the question? Do you agree with the following (you seem to agree, but you are also hedging)?

1. Sun must apparently advance constantly at 15 degrees per hour everywhere and always on a Round Earth.
2. Sun cannot apparently advance constantly at 15 degrees per hour everywhere and always on a Flat Earth.

[Dr David Thork]

BT, we need to agree on something. Do you agree that on a flat earth, the sun does not advance at 15 degrees per hour, and that on a round earth, the sun must advance at 15 degrees per hour? This is what you seem to have been saying repeatedly throughout this thread. Do you agree?

Flat earth has the benefit of slant angles from a very close sun. I never got a round earth answer to explain why 15 degrees isn't observed contrary to theory.

Can you just answer the question? Do you agree with the following (you seem to agree, but you are also hedging)?

1. Sun must apparently advance constantly at 15 degrees per hour everywhere and always on a Round Earth.
2. Sun cannot apparently advance constantly at 15 degrees per hour everywhere and always on a Flat Earth.

1. 15 degrees around a circle from the north pole - yes. Not 15 degrees across the sky. One is lateral, the other has components of lateral and vertical. Azimuth if you like.
2. It certainly will be 15 degrees at the north pole where the sun's distance is always equal from you on a flat earth. Not anywhere else. This is the problem round earth has. the sun should always be 93 million miles from you on a round earth. You can't claim the slant angle to explain the twilight times observed. Flat earth has it covered because it is the superior theory.

[Curious Squirrel]

Apology accepted.

An odd way to apologize for misreading another statement's and intent, but I'll take what I can get.

Reminder, looking for hard proof for the sun moving at 15° degrees an hour along the solar ecliptic, different than the vertical ecliptic mentioned/referenced by Thork earlier in the thread. Having a small touch of trouble as he doesn't seem ready to accept the special build sundial posted by Jocelyn.

I was the one looking for hard proof. The real world times between the various degrees of twilight blew that round earth assumption apart. I was left wanting though. 

No twilight shows it doesn't move at 15° per hour upon the path perpendicular to the horizon. Which was never claimed, that was your strawman assumption, NOT the RE assertion. The sun needs to be tracked upon the plane/ecliptic of it's actual motion to show a steady rate of 15° per hour. Jocelyn DID point out a way to do this, and the unique sundial she presented supported this assertion. I'm curious if anyone has personally done the experiment Jocelyn suggested with the sticks, or if we can find someone who has compiled said experiment before.

BT, we need to agree on something. Do you agree that on a flat earth, the sun does not advance at 15 degrees per hour, and that on a round earth, the sun must advance at 15 degrees per hour? This is what you seem to have been saying repeatedly throughout this thread. Do you agree?

Flat earth has the benefit of slant angles from a very close sun. I never got a round earth answer to explain why 15 degrees isn't observed contrary to theory.

I believe the above bit should cover this, but wanted to be clear. Measuring along the plane perpendicular to the horizon will *not* show 15° of movement per hour. You must be measuring along the plane of the suns motion. Which so far the only thing presented that does so, is Jocelyn's unique sundial earlier in the thread, that does in fact have evenly spaced hour markings as one would expect.

[Dr David Thork]

My mate just set up his own business and made his first sale today. We must adjourn as it is beer o'clock on this side of the disc. 

[Rama Set]

My mate just set up his own business and made his first sale today. We must adjourn as it is beer o'clock on this side of the disc. 

Slaintë!

[Rama Set]

To bring it up yes, to want to discuss how latitude works on a flat earth is another topic. You have to accept that is does work in this thread so we can work on sundials.

No, to show that latitude does not work on a FE is to show that sun If you wish to abandon sundials as you believe the real proof lies in latitude, that's a separate thread.

Latitude does work on a flat earth. Please look at the map in our FAQ.

Incorrect.  Either the sun's altitude fluctuates based on your latitude, which is nonsensical, or the distance between latitude lines varies which is does not agree with real life navigation.

[Tom Haws]

Apology accepted.

An odd way to apologize for misreading another statement's and intent, but I'll take what I can get.

Reminder, looking for hard proof for the sun moving at 15° degrees an hour along the solar ecliptic, different than the vertical ecliptic mentioned/referenced by Thork earlier in the thread. Having a small touch of trouble as he doesn't seem ready to accept the special build sundial posted by Jocelyn.

I was the one looking for hard proof. The real world times between the various degrees of twilight blew that round earth assumption apart. I was left wanting though. 

No twilight shows it doesn't move at 15° per hour upon the path perpendicular to the horizon. Which was never claimed, that was your strawman assumption, NOT the RE assertion. The sun needs to be tracked upon the plane/ecliptic of it's actual motion to show a steady rate of 15° per hour. Jocelyn DID point out a way to do this, and the unique sundial she presented supported this assertion. I'm curious if anyone has personally done the experiment Jocelyn suggested with the sticks, or if we can find someone who has compiled said experiment before.

BT, we need to agree on something. Do you agree that on a flat earth, the sun does not advance at 15 degrees per hour, and that on a round earth, the sun must advance at 15 degrees per hour? This is what you seem to have been saying repeatedly throughout this thread. Do you agree?

Flat earth has the benefit of slant angles from a very close sun. I never got a round earth answer to explain why 15 degrees isn't observed contrary to theory.

I believe the above bit should cover this, but wanted to be clear. Measuring along the plane perpendicular to the horizon will *not* show 15° of movement per hour. You must be measuring along the plane of the suns motion. Which so far the only thing presented that does so, is Jocelyn's unique sundial earlier in the thread, that does in fact have evenly spaced hour markings as one would expect.

I am running observations today. Preliminary conclusions:

1. The JocelynSachs experiment is not easy to run with crummy equipment. I propose instead a clipboard or notebook with markings on paper. I am running both today, but the JocelynSachs experiment has proved pretty much useless. Who knew? Paper and pen, on the other hand, are very simple. (I do appreciate the superiority of the JS experiment since the sun's path is not apparently planar. But I don't have an armillary sundial handy. And measuring the angle between sticks proves too difficult for me. I am a poor mechanic or technician?)
2. Winter solstice is not a great time to run observations.
3. My house is not a great time to run observations.
4. We need to narrow our hypothesis to the following: If the sun apparently orbits the earth, then the sun cannot zoom past at noon. Therefore if the sun traverses more than 15 degrees per hour at noon, the sun does not apparently orbit the earth. Conversely, for the FES sun animation to work, the sun must zoom past me at noon (making up for lost time at the horizons). Therefore if the sun only traverses 15 degrees per hour at noon, the FES sun animation is not correct and the sun does not glide above the earth and the earth is not flat.



BT seems to be more of a troll (perpetually evading agreement) than a bona fide conversant (getting to yes), so a more preliminary hypothesis might more appropriately be:

If BT agrees that London is outside in the USA, he may not be a troll. If he disagrees or refuses to answer straight, he is a troll.

[Dr David Thork]

BT seems to be more of a troll ...

Back the truck up. Who do you think you are talking to?

BT has been a member of the flat earth society for the better part of a decade.
BT served on the Zetetic Council.
BT wrote many parts of the wiki.
BT drew and had  added to the forum to allow round earthers to show how they felt about losing debates to BT.
BT has lectured on flat earth to universities, media outlets and after dinner soirées about flat earth.
BT conducts media interviews on behalf of the society.
BT has run many of the society's social media accounts.
BT has created so much content that many of the maps and images used in every day postings were originally drawn by BT.
BT has engaged in research projects with institutions to gather flat earth history and been a long time curator of flat earth information.
BT had the first ever user account on tfes.org.
BT has made over 40,000 posts on the forums from his various accounts.

If BT is a troll, BT should be up for 4chan troll of the year award for going above and beyond to get a 5min kick out saying something someone else doesn't agree with on the internet.

Or it could just be BT thinks the earth is flat and has dedicated many years in pursuit of sharing information on flat earth to anyone who is interested. Tell me Tom Haws, who discovered the flat earth society and created an account 3 weeks ago and has bawwed about its existence ever since, of us, who seems more like the troll?

[Tom Haws]

Tell me Tom Haws, who discovered the flat earth society and created an account 3 weeks ago and has bawwed about its existence ever since, of us, who seems more like the troll?

I'm not questioning your dedication to TFES. I am trying to get to yes. But still you evade and posture.

Is London outside the USA? Do we agree on that?

If that's too silly for you to dignify, can you find anything to agree on?

[Dr David Thork]

Tell me Tom Haws, who discovered the flat earth society and created an account 3 weeks ago and has bawwed about its existence ever since, of us, who seems more like the troll?

I'm not questioning your dedication to TFES. I am trying to get to yes. But still you evade and posture.

Is London outside the USA? Do we agree on that?

If that's too silly for you to dignify, can you find anything to agree on?

Which London? London in Madison County, Ohio is definitely in the USA. London, England is not. Is this a trick question?

[douglips]

BT - did you see this flat sundial that
a) works everywhere on Earth
b) demonstrates 15 degrees/hour
c) allows for shadows on the top in the winter and on the bottom in the summer



You can build a similar sundial out of paper and see the 15 degrees per hour yourself:
https://www.robives.com/product/equatorial-sundial-model-2/