devils advocate

Re: Sundial
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2017, 09:42:30 PM »
On a flat earth yes. The sun will shoot overhead faster, its closer as we observe. But you are a round earther, remember? The sun is always 93 million miles away. You can't claim a slant angle. to you the sun is 93 million miles away when its overhead, and 93 million miles away at sunset. Travelling in a perfect circle. At a uniform pace. 15 degrees per hour. Every hour.

Imagine your road is a perfect circle around you 100 metres away. Now, does the car speed up when you look at 80 degrees or 20 or 170? Nope, it keeps laping exactly the same pace.

I just gave you all enough rope to hang yourselves.

BT you got a point!


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Re: Sundial
« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2017, 09:47:02 PM »
No, go and look up the definitions yourself. Understand what those things are. I pasted a big blue diagram above already. Its not hard.

Get two nice straight garden canes and a sunny day.

Push one garden cane into the soil such that it has no visible shadow (pointing at the sun)

Wait 1 hour.

Push the second cane into the soil such that it has no visible shadow.

Measure the angle between the canes. It will be 15 degrees. If you prefer, wait two hours - it'll be 30 degrees. Or three hours - it'll be 45 degrees. It doesn't matter where you are on earth, and so long as the sun is shining at both ends of the experiment, it doesn't matter when you do it either.

The timings you are talking about, with the aid of your excellent diagram, are degrees measured vertically above the horizon, not the angle across the sky the sun appears to travel during a given time.

As for the sundial: you are quite correct that angled fins distort the path of the shadow. As I mentioned earlier: the other type of sundial, which is angled to align with the polar axis, has the hours spaced 15 degrees apart.
If on  around earth you aligned a sundial with the polar axis, and you lived North of the equator, you'd often never even get a shadow on your sundial. The sun would be underneath the dial 6 months of the year. Try harder.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2017, 09:50:37 PM by Baby Thork »
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Re: Sundial
« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2017, 09:52:19 PM »
Incorrect. You are creating a strawman to attack. The sundial you just showed is not looking at the axis the sun moves upon like the one Jocelyn linked earlier does. Thus the shadow cast upon it indeed does not move 15 degrees per hour. Let's go back and take a look at this one again.

http://sundials.org/images/NASS_PhotoList/thumb/Artisan_PublicSundials_Adzema_2010.jpg

A larger image and some information on them. http://www.robertadzema.com/sundials.html

Those hour markers sure seem equally spaced to me for this one, which is properly placed to match the sun's plane as it moves through the sky. The sun will not move at 15° through the sky, when measured along a plane 90° from the horizon plane. It WILL move 15° an hour when measured upon the plane of the suns path that follows it. At the equator on the equinox is the location where this will happen twice every year, and also match up with the plane 90° to the plane of the horizon. Boy I hope that made sense this time.

What you are doing is using the incorrect 'wall' to measure against, and presenting it as though it's what's being discussed with 15° an hour.

EDIT: Hmm, I appear to have quoted the wrong thing here. Dropping the quote, the information still pertains to earlier misinformation.

Re: Sundial
« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2017, 09:57:52 PM »
If on  around earth you aligned a sundial with the polar axis, and you lived North of the equator, you'd often never even get a shadow on your sundial. The sun would be underneath the dial 6 months of the year. Try harder.



Nope.

Re: Sundial
« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2017, 10:06:01 PM »
On a flat earth yes. The sun will shoot overhead faster, its closer as we observe. But you are a round earther, remember? The sun is always 93 million miles away. You can't claim a slant angle. to you the sun is 93 million miles away when its overhead, and 93 million miles away at sunset. Travelling in a perfect circle. At a uniform pace. 15 degrees per hour. Every hour.

Imagine your road is a perfect circle around you 100 metres away. Now, does the car speed up when you look at 80 degrees or 20 or 170? Nope, it keeps laping exactly the same pace.

I just gave you all enough rope to hang yourselves.

BT you got a point!
It's a shame his point only works if you live at one of the poles.

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Re: Sundial
« Reply #45 on: December 18, 2017, 10:09:15 PM »
If on  around earth you aligned a sundial with the polar axis, and you lived North of the equator, you'd often never even get a shadow on your sundial. The sun would be underneath the dial 6 months of the year. Try harder.



Nope.

That isn't aligned with the polar axis, is it? That is aligned perpendicular to the polar axis. If that was a dish at that angle and not a curve, the sun would be under the dial. That is why your example is called an equatorial dial. The examples we were discussing are horizontal dials and they are aligned with the horizon. Polar dials tend to be bars on rectangular plates.
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Re: Sundial
« Reply #46 on: December 18, 2017, 10:11:36 PM »
On a flat earth yes. The sun will shoot overhead faster, its closer as we observe. But you are a round earther, remember? The sun is always 93 million miles away. You can't claim a slant angle. to you the sun is 93 million miles away when its overhead, and 93 million miles away at sunset. Travelling in a perfect circle. At a uniform pace. 15 degrees per hour. Every hour.

Imagine your road is a perfect circle around you 100 metres away. Now, does the car speed up when you look at 80 degrees or 20 or 170? Nope, it keeps laping exactly the same pace.

I just gave you all enough rope to hang yourselves.

BT you got a point!
It's a shame his point only works if you live at one of the poles.
Again, it only works for ROUND earth at the poles. FET covers all the bases. It is the superior theory.

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Re: Sundial
« Reply #47 on: December 18, 2017, 10:15:35 PM »
If on  around earth you aligned a sundial with the polar axis, and you lived North of the equator, you'd often never even get a shadow on your sundial. The sun would be underneath the dial 6 months of the year. Try harder.



Nope.

That isn't aligned with the polar axis, is it?
[/quote]

The bit I was talking about is.

Re: Sundial
« Reply #48 on: December 18, 2017, 10:23:39 PM »
On a flat earth yes. The sun will shoot overhead faster, its closer as we observe. But you are a round earther, remember? The sun is always 93 million miles away. You can't claim a slant angle. to you the sun is 93 million miles away when its overhead, and 93 million miles away at sunset. Travelling in a perfect circle. At a uniform pace. 15 degrees per hour. Every hour.

Imagine your road is a perfect circle around you 100 metres away. Now, does the car speed up when you look at 80 degrees or 20 or 170? Nope, it keeps laping exactly the same pace.

I just gave you all enough rope to hang yourselves.

BT you got a point!
It's a shame his point only works if you live at one of the poles.
Again, it only works for ROUND earth at the poles. FET covers all the bases. It is the superior theory.


The car moving at an equal angular speed no matter where it is on the track, only works when watching the car from the center. Move anywhere else, and the car is no longer moving at an equal angular velocity during it's whole trip. Which the sun does, as you've shown yourself with the twilight information, and the sundial posted by both myself and Jocelyn shows. I also have no idea what your image is attempting to show without context (once again).

As well when viewed from outside of the track, you would see something VERY different to what is observed in the Southern hemisphere.

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Re: Sundial
« Reply #49 on: December 18, 2017, 10:25:55 PM »
And how do you move position and get any further from the centre, when the sun is 93 million miles away? No matter where you are, you are always in the centre on a round earth. You're just proving the earth to be flat with a nearby sun.
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Re: Sundial
« Reply #50 on: December 18, 2017, 10:40:40 PM »
And how do you move position and get any further from the centre, when the sun is 93 million miles away? No matter where you are, you are always in the centre on a round earth.

Exactly. Which is why the sun always appears to travel an angle of 15 degrees per hour. No matter where you are. No idea why Curious Squirrel is trying to prove the earth is flat all of a sudden but he's doing a terrible job of it.

Re: Sundial
« Reply #51 on: December 18, 2017, 11:38:33 PM »
And how do you move position and get any further from the centre, when the sun is 93 million miles away? No matter where you are, you are always in the centre on a round earth.

Exactly. Which is why the sun always appears to travel an angle of 15 degrees per hour. No matter where you are. No idea why Curious Squirrel is trying to prove the earth is flat all of a sudden but he's doing a terrible job of it.
Not at all, maybe I need to be more clear. Hmmm. The counterpoint with his 'track' idea is that as soon as you move any closer to the 'car'/sun the movement of it is no longer going to be an even angular speed like we see in the real world. With a flat Earth and a close sun you can move to that sort of distance. You can go OUTSIDE the track, and completely break the illusion of a steady angular speed.

Re: Sundial
« Reply #52 on: December 19, 2017, 01:51:06 AM »
No, go and look up the definitions yourself. Understand what those things are. I pasted a big blue diagram above already. Its not hard.

Get two nice straight garden canes and a sunny day.

Push one garden cane into the soil such that it has no visible shadow (pointing at the sun)

Wait 1 hour.

Push the second cane into the soil such that it has no visible shadow.

Measure the angle between the canes. It will be 15 degrees. If you prefer, wait two hours - it'll be 30 degrees. Or three hours - it'll be 45 degrees. It doesn't matter where you are on earth, and so long as the sun is shining at both ends of the experiment, it doesn't matter when you do it either.

The timings you are talking about, with the aid of your excellent diagram, are degrees measured vertically above the horizon, not the angle across the sky the sun appears to travel during a given time.

As for the sundial: you are quite correct that angled fins distort the path of the shadow. As I mentioned earlier: the other type of sundial, which is angled to align with the polar axis, has the hours spaced 15 degrees apart.
If on  around earth you aligned a sundial with the polar axis, and you lived North of the equator, you'd often never even get a shadow on your sundial. The sun would be underneath the dial 6 months of the year. Try harder.

YES THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS, THE SHADOW IS ON THE BOTTOM SIX MONTHS OF THE YEAR.



You claim to be a pilot, you claim to have studied trigonometry in middle school, and yet you can't grasp that if the sun or you are crossing a distance at an angle that the sun or you will go slower than if you are crossing it straight.

THE SUN IS NOT GOING STRAIGHT ACROSS THE HORIZON FOR ALMOST ANY OBSERVER.

Here's a video of the sun moving 15 degrees an hour and never crossing the horizon. How does that work?




Re: Sundial
« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2017, 02:06:05 AM »
Read this section of the wikipedia page on twilight and see if you can wrap your head around the fact that THE SUN DOES NOT TRAVEL STRAIGHT ACROSS THE HORIZON IN MOST CASES:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twilight#Duration

Quote
At Greenwich, England (51.5°N), the duration of civil twilight will vary from 33 minutes to 48 minutes, depending on the time of year. At the equator, conditions can go from day to night in as little as 20–25 minutes. This is true because at low latitudes the sun's apparent movement is perpendicular to the observer's horizon. But at the poles, civil twilight can be as long as 2–3 weeks. In the Arctic and Antarctic regions, twilight (if there is any) can last for several hours. There is no astronomical twilight at the poles near the winter solstice (for about 74 days at the North Pole and about 80 days at the South Pole). As one gets closer to the Arctic and Antarctic circles, the sun's disk moves toward the observer's horizon at a lower angle. The observer's earthly location will pass through the various twilight zones less directly, taking more time.

Re: Sundial
« Reply #54 on: December 19, 2017, 10:22:14 AM »
Read this section of the wikipedia page on twilight and see if you can wrap your head around the fact that THE SUN DOES NOT TRAVEL STRAIGHT ACROSS THE HORIZON IN MOST CASES:

Either my troll detector is broken, or yours is :)

Offline Roger G

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Re: Sundial
« Reply #55 on: December 19, 2017, 10:29:58 AM »
'You claim to be a pilot, you claim to have studied trigonometry in middle school,'

I think you missed out the degree in Aerospace Engineering!

Roger

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Offline Tom Haws

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Re: Sundial
« Reply #56 on: December 20, 2017, 05:47:13 AM »
BT you got a point!

BT has no point by any stretch, and I cannot understand how you are so easily taken in by him unless it is the sheer strength of his bluster, of which there is no short supply.

In the above he has done a full circle, defended the Round Earth position, and cried victory. It is just that nonsensical and absurd.  See below:

On a flat earth yes. The sun will shoot overhead faster, its closer as we observe.
...which is contrary to the observed steady 15 degrees per hour, as we keep reminding you.

The sun is always 93 million miles away. You can't claim a slant angle. to you the sun is 93 million miles away when its overhead, and 93 million miles away at sunset. Travelling in a perfect circle. At a uniform pace. 15 degrees per hour. Every hour.

Exactly! Glad to have you see the light!

Imagine your road is a perfect circle around you 100 metres away. Now, does the car speed up when you look at 80 degrees or 20 or 170? Nope, it keeps laping exactly the same pace.

Exactly! As observed for thousands of years. Maybe you really do understand!

I just gave you all enough rope to hang yourselves.

Sure. If the sun did not really apparently march across the sky at 15 degrees per hour, we would be in doubt. But since it does, your sun animation cannot work.

At least it appears we all agree on one thing: FE and RE stand or fall on whether the sun marches at 15 degrees per hour. Maybe we should proceed to agree on an experiment. I like the JocelynSachs experiment.
Civil Engineer (professional mapper)

Thanks to Tom Bishop for his courtesy.

No flat map can predict commercial airline flight times among New York, Paris, Cape Town, & Buenos Aires.

The FAQ Sun animation does not work with sundials. And it has the equinox sun set toward Seattle (well N of NW) at my house in Mesa, AZ.

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Re: Sundial
« Reply #57 on: December 20, 2017, 05:52:53 AM »
If on  around earth you aligned a sundial with the polar axis, and you lived North of the equator, you'd often never even get a shadow on your sundial. The sun would be underneath the dial 6 months of the year. Try harder.



Nope.

That isn't aligned with the polar axis, is it? That is aligned perpendicular to the polar axis. If that was a dish at that angle and not a curve, the sun would be under the dial. That is why your example is called an equatorial dial. The examples we were discussing are horizontal dials and they are aligned with the horizon. Polar dials tend to be bars on rectangular plates.

BT and everybody else, maybe we should agree to talk around a universal sundial with a correct orientation. Talking around incorrect sundials is pointless. A universal sundial is a globe with its pole pointed at the celestial pole. It isn't aligned with the earth's axis. See this image again:

Civil Engineer (professional mapper)

Thanks to Tom Bishop for his courtesy.

No flat map can predict commercial airline flight times among New York, Paris, Cape Town, & Buenos Aires.

The FAQ Sun animation does not work with sundials. And it has the equinox sun set toward Seattle (well N of NW) at my house in Mesa, AZ.

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Re: Sundial
« Reply #58 on: December 20, 2017, 01:09:57 PM »
So you don't want to use a flat sundial that represents a flat earth. You want to use a globe shaped sundial representing a globe shaped earth. Can we load the deck in your favour any more do you think?
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Re: Sundial
« Reply #59 on: December 20, 2017, 01:22:18 PM »
So you don't want to use a flat sundial that represents a flat earth. You want to use a globe shaped sundial representing a globe shaped earth. Can we load the deck in your favour any more do you think?

We want to use the sundial that works best. It happens to be a globe.  But yes, the deck is also completely in our favor. Sorry! You lose!