I don't think the idea that NASA is lying is very far-fetced. It wouldn't be the first time the US government seriously lied about something big. However, in order to keep the globe theory up, every government in the world has to keep this secret. Isn't this a little unlikely?

There have been a lot of astronauts to space, from 18 different countries. On the ground, some of these countries can only fight, argue and make life worse for each other. Especially during the cold war...

Isn't it unlikely that, with all these different countries that dislike eachother that all went to space, they all agree to keep a secret by the US government?

Or maybe the other way around. Since the Soviet Union was first in space, maybe they came up with the lie. What would America gain by keeping this secret? It would be way more beneficial for them to expose the Soviet government and turn their people against them...

Some countries that would love to mess each other up: Soviet Union - USA
India - Pakistan
Europe - Soviet Union
Japan - China
China - USA
Etc etc

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Serious question to flat earthers about the government's secrecy
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2020, 08:08:36 PM »
Following WWII the race to space lasted for 12 years, with one infamous failure and rocket disaster after another. During the space race there was a lot of pressure for the US to get a satellite, and therefore ICBMs, into orbit, by all levels of public and government. It was the next step of defense and nuclearization, which would establish a country as a super power.

Don't you think it's a coincidence that despite the many years of hardships to get to space, that after only a few months of the USSR claiming to have launched Sputnik into orbit, the US claimed to put a satellite into orbit as well?

Quote
Isn't it unlikely that, with all these different countries that dislike eachother that all went to space, they all agree to keep a secret by the US government?

You would be assuming that they actually have substantial space programs and are not simply outsourcing to NASA's contractors for space activities, like putting up satellites. SpaceX says that they put up satellites for Argentina, Canada, etc. Some countries or companies may 'design' what they want in space, and claim that those facilities are part of their 'space program', but there are really only a few places where rockets are launched from on Earth, and which are controlled by governmental organizations. There are also UN oversight organizations that were specifically set up during the space race era to help developing countries with their space programs. They had already known beforehand that countries wanted to go to space.

Also, some of the bigger countries like Japan who would perform more extensive activities like sending probes to orbit the Moon and such would usually always have a disclaimer in their information "*in joint collaboration with NASA." It is possible that it is different now, but it was that way for a long time.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2020, 12:20:45 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline AATW

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Re: Serious question to flat earthers about the government's secrecy
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2020, 09:16:56 PM »
Following WWII the race to space lasted for 12 years, with one infamous failure and rocket disaster after another. During the space race there was a lot of pressure for the US to get a satellite, and therefore ICBMs, into orbit, by all levels of public and government. It was the next step of defense and nuclearization, which would establish a country as a super power.

Don't you think it's a coincidence that despite the many years of hardships to get to space, that within three months of the USSR claiming to have launched Sputnik into orbit, the US claimed to put a satellite into orbit as well?

Do you have details of these infamous failures? I am really struggling to find a list of them. But I don't think it's that strange that they got there at similar times, from Googling a few things Wernher von Braun proposed the idea of placing a satellite into orbit in 1954, you're making it sound like the US and Russia had both been trying to do so since WWII. Do you have a source for that assertion or for the list of failures? I'm sure there were some of course.

Also, it's interesting that the Van Allen belts are used as a reason why we couldn't have got to the moon. Do you know how they were discovered? By Explorer 1, the first satellite NASA put into orbit...
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Offline GoldCashew

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Re: Serious question to flat earthers about the government's secrecy
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2020, 10:16:23 PM »
Following WWII the race to space lasted for 12 years, with one infamous failure and rocket disaster after another. During the space race there was a lot of pressure for the US to get a satellite, and therefore ICBMs, into orbit, by all levels of public and government. It was the next step of defense and nuclearization, which would establish a country as a super power.

Don't you think it's a coincidence that despite the many years of hardships to get to space, that within three months of the USSR claiming to have launched Sputnik into orbit, the US claimed to put a satellite into orbit as well?

Quote
Isn't it unlikely that, with all these different countries that dislike eachother that all went to space, they all agree to keep a secret by the US government?

You would be assuming that they actually have substantial space programs and are not simply outsourcing to NASA's contractors for space activities, like putting up satellites. SpaceX says that they put up satellites for Argentina, Canada, etc. Some countries or companies may 'design' what they want in space, and claim that those facilities are part of their 'space program', but there are really only a few places where rockets are launched from on Earth, and which are controlled by governmental organizations. There are also UN oversight organizations that were specifically set up during the space race era to help developing countries with their space programs. They had already known beforehand that countries wanted to go to space.

Also, some of the bigger countries like Japan who would perform more extensive activities like sending probes to orbit the Moon and such would usually always have a disclaimer in their information "*in joint collaboration with NASA." It is possible that it is different now, but it was that way for a long time.


Tom,

It's a fallacy to use coincidences and the workings together of nations in collaborative manners to achieve goals as a reason for a conspiracy or a hoax to exist. It goes against the very grain of how the Wiki talks about scientific observation and knowing as the basis for critical thought.

First, nations collaborate and partner in many different ways all the time to achieve goals. Airbus is an aircraft partnership amongst many different European Nations. It doesn't mean that travel on an Airbus is CGI or a hoax. This is just one example.

Second, there used to be a race in the 1960's towards being the first to offer supersonic transport to passengers. European countries were developing the Concorde. USA was developing the SST. And Russia did a sort of copy job on the Concorde, calling theirs the Concordia. The SST never panned out due to things like cost. Russia did complete their Concordia but abandoned the project due to catastrophic failures. And lastly, you had the Concorde which continued to fly up through the new millennia, but ultimately cancelled due to cost. Does this supersonic race to the sky mean that the Concorde / supersonic passenger travel was a hoax? No.

Third, you seem to also be saying that because there were many failures with rocket launches but then suddenly success is a reason to doubt space travel. This is both lazy science and a lazy argument. The Wright Brothers failed and tweaked airplane design many times before they got it right. In the early days when the Wright Brothers used to demonstrate their powered Wright Flyers to the US army, citizens would often laugh in disbelief, many also thinking it was a hoax until they saw it with their own eyes. And what about Thomas Edisons work to perfect the light bulb. Many many prototype trials and failures before getting it right. It doesnt mean that the light bulb is some sort of hoax.

Technological breakthroughs happen because of failures, learnings from failures, and then improvements that are made. This is technical evolution or technology evolving to become better, more reliable. Again, it's a lazy argument to attibute failures and then sudden technological success as the basis for a hoax.

Your arguments of coincidences, sudden breakthroughs, and nations collaborating as a reason to believe in the space travel conspiracy is why the Flat Earth conspiracy belief is so lacking in credibility.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2020, 10:28:11 PM by GoldCashew »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Serious question to flat earthers about the government's secrecy
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2020, 10:54:26 PM »
I didn't say that it was proof. I said that it was a coincidence. Who knew that the managers merely had to tell the scientists to "work harder!" and the nation's rocket issues would be resolved and space breakthroughs would occur?

Offline BRrollin

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Re: Serious question to flat earthers about the government's secrecy
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2020, 11:28:08 PM »
I didn't say that it was proof. I said that it was a coincidence. Who knew that the managers merely had to tell the scientists to "work harder!" and the nation's rocket issues would be resolved and space breakthroughs would occur?

All they did was tell the scientists to work harder? That does sound awfully bizarre.

Do you have evidence that (a) they told scientists to work harder, (b) that’s all they did?

Cause that would convince me there’s something fishy here.

Also, who’s “they?” I presume you mean the government?
“This just shows that you don't even understand the basic principle of UA...A projectile that goes up and then down again to an observer on Earth is not accelerating, it is the observer on Earth who accelerates.”

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Offline GoldCashew

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Re: Serious question to flat earthers about the government's secrecy
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2020, 11:54:31 PM »
I didn't say that it was proof. I said that it was a coincidence. Who knew that the managers merely had to tell the scientists to "work harder!" and the nation's rocket issues would be resolved and space breakthroughs would occur?


Tom,

Your desperately clinging on to the space travel conspiracy hoax by using coincidences as one way to explain a belief.

Also, why is it so hard for you to appreciate or accept going from technological failure to sudden success, without going down the hoax rabbit hole? I dont really understand because going from failure to success is how technology breakthroughs occur.

Your Wiki talks about the importance of knowing as opposed to believing. But then, your entire above argument is based on believing and not knowing.

It's weird how you think because in some threads you dive deep into and give or site examples or scientific experiments to make an argument, which I think is great. But in other threads like this one, it's like you become a different person and go from scientific experimentation to ridiculous speculations with sarcastic storytelling. It's really bizarre.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2020, 12:03:26 AM by GoldCashew »

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: Serious question to flat earthers about the government's secrecy
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2020, 11:54:51 PM »
It's really no coincidence though is it? Say in a marathon between two participants, it's not a crazy coincidence if they're nearly evenly matched is it? It doesn't raise any suspicions. If two boxers go through all rounds and the winner by decision was extremely close, is that suspicious? it happens a lot. Is it a coincidence the ps5 and NextBox are releasing about the same time this year or is it that both companies have been keeping a watchful eye on each other and are smart enough to keep up with each other and with current trends?

When it comes down to it I would imagine there was a lot of espionage between the US and Russia during the space race and there was a lot on the line to win. If one nation advances the other has to push to keep up. Despite all of this hatred for each other, if it turned out the US faked it I do find it strange that Russia wouldn't out them but rather they confirmed it happened. Strange that.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?