Re: What is the flat earth position?
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2017, 02:24:29 PM »
So on questions such as how sunsets occur on flat earth etc there is not a universal response from the FE crew...Pete Svarrior confirms that Tom Bishop does not represent their views, Junker chucks threads to nonsense and J-man talks 'God did it' and other bollox, so I ask where is (and why not) is there a community answer to basic RE problems with the FE theory? You have no agreed map, answer to sunsets, moon appearance across the earth, pinhole camera observations etc so if you three can't even agree how do you hope to persuade us?


 Under the Globe Earth model, the sun doesn't rise nor set. Being as we rotate around the sun the sun would appear to rise and set depending on how far away it is from us. AKA Perception. That same law of perception would also apply to the flat earth model being we perceive things to look the way they due because of how our brain and eyes work. My point is in a flat Earth, the sun rotates around us, meaning the further the sun is from us it would appear smaller and smaller causing it to appear to set. However, it hasn't!

You have half of that correct - it would appear smaller and smaller as it receded into the distance. This is not what is observed in reality. The size of the sun stays pretty constant due to its size and distance.

 Have you ever been on a beach, something we have a lot of here in Panama city, Panama , but really seen how the sun looks overhead and how it looks right when it meets the horizon?  They are nowhere near the same size and depending on how close you are to it, based on how it rotates (your Earth, or my Sun) it would appear larger or smaller at the Horizon due to the season.  The tropic of Cancer and Capricorn dictates the seasons. No matter which model you use. :)

The sun itself is almost exactly the same size regardless of where it's being see. The light/corona around the sun is what's magnified some by it's setting. Look at it with a proper filter (welding mask rated over 16 or so, or one of those eclipse glasses) and you'll see the actual orb of the sun doesn't change in size. Well it'll change very slightly, but nowhere near the amount the FE distance change would dictate.

Re: What is the flat earth position?
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2017, 02:58:47 PM »
So on questions such as how sunsets occur on flat earth etc there is not a universal response from the FE crew...Pete Svarrior confirms that Tom Bishop does not represent their views, Junker chucks threads to nonsense and J-man talks 'God did it' and other bollox, so I ask where is (and why not) is there a community answer to basic RE problems with the FE theory? You have no agreed map, answer to sunsets, moon appearance across the earth, pinhole camera observations etc so if you three can't even agree how do you hope to persuade us?


 Under the Globe Earth model, the sun doesn't rise nor set. Being as we rotate around the sun the sun would appear to rise and set depending on how far away it is from us. AKA Perception. That same law of perception would also apply to the flat earth model being we perceive things to look the way they due because of how our brain and eyes work. My point is in a flat Earth, the sun rotates around us, meaning the further the sun is from us it would appear smaller and smaller causing it to appear to set. However, it hasn't!

You have half of that correct - it would appear smaller and smaller as it receded into the distance. This is not what is observed in reality. The size of the sun stays pretty constant due to its size and distance.

 Have you ever been on a beach, something we have a lot of here in Panama city, Panama , but really seen how the sun looks overhead and how it looks right when it meets the horizon?  They are nowhere near the same size and depending on how close you are to it, based on how it rotates (your Earth, or my Sun) it would appear larger or smaller at the Horizon due to the season.  The tropic of Cancer and Capricorn dictates the seasons. No matter which model you use. :)

The sun itself is almost exactly the same size regardless of where it's being see. The light/corona around the sun is what's magnified some by it's setting. Look at it with a proper filter (welding mask rated over 16 or so, or one of those eclipse glasses) and you'll see the actual orb of the sun doesn't change in size. Well it'll change very slightly, but nowhere near the amount the FE distance change would dictate.

 Would you please point us in the direction of what it is you are talking about? Once again, what you have described is the opposite of what we see day in and day out as we look at the sun. What happens when you focus on a dot? Does it mean that everything else around it has disappeared? Well, perceptive will tell you that it has, but the reality is it hasn't! Flat Earthers believe that the moon and the sun are about the same size. but depending where you are on Earth and the time it is, the Sun will look bigger/smaller than "normal" and noticeably because of preceptive.

Re: What is the flat earth position?
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2017, 03:19:32 PM »
So on questions such as how sunsets occur on flat earth etc there is not a universal response from the FE crew...Pete Svarrior confirms that Tom Bishop does not represent their views, Junker chucks threads to nonsense and J-man talks 'God did it' and other bollox, so I ask where is (and why not) is there a community answer to basic RE problems with the FE theory? You have no agreed map, answer to sunsets, moon appearance across the earth, pinhole camera observations etc so if you three can't even agree how do you hope to persuade us?


 Under the Globe Earth model, the sun doesn't rise nor set. Being as we rotate around the sun the sun would appear to rise and set depending on how far away it is from us. AKA Perception. That same law of perception would also apply to the flat earth model being we perceive things to look the way they due because of how our brain and eyes work. My point is in a flat Earth, the sun rotates around us, meaning the further the sun is from us it would appear smaller and smaller causing it to appear to set. However, it hasn't!

You have half of that correct - it would appear smaller and smaller as it receded into the distance. This is not what is observed in reality. The size of the sun stays pretty constant due to its size and distance.

 Have you ever been on a beach, something we have a lot of here in Panama city, Panama , but really seen how the sun looks overhead and how it looks right when it meets the horizon?  They are nowhere near the same size and depending on how close you are to it, based on how it rotates (your Earth, or my Sun) it would appear larger or smaller at the Horizon due to the season.  The tropic of Cancer and Capricorn dictates the seasons. No matter which model you use. :)

The sun itself is almost exactly the same size regardless of where it's being see. The light/corona around the sun is what's magnified some by it's setting. Look at it with a proper filter (welding mask rated over 16 or so, or one of those eclipse glasses) and you'll see the actual orb of the sun doesn't change in size. Well it'll change very slightly, but nowhere near the amount the FE distance change would dictate.

 Would you please point us in the direction of what it is you are talking about? Once again, what you have described is the opposite of what we see day in and day out as we look at the sun. What happens when you focus on a dot? Does it mean that everything else around it has disappeared? Well, perceptive will tell you that it has, but the reality is it hasn't! Flat Earthers believe that the moon and the sun are about the same size. but depending where you are on Earth and the time it is, the Sun will look bigger/smaller than "normal" and noticeably because of preceptive.
What's the opposite? The sun doesn't change in size, so long as you are looking at the actual sun, not relying on the apparent size that is affected by glare and other things. Something further away from you will shrink in size. As the sun should set on a FE, it's getting very far away from you, which means it should be getting a lot smaller. On a RE, the sun isn't noticeably further away from you at sunset/rise than at noon.

Again, you need to be looking at the sun through a filter that allows you to see the sun itself, not just the corona or other artifacts. There's some images floating around from a FE video showing no change in sun size, I'll see if I can dig them up if you like, but a bit of searching should produce them too.

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Re: What is the flat earth position?
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2017, 07:01:21 PM »
So on questions such as how sunsets occur on flat earth etc there is not a universal response from the FE crew...Pete Svarrior confirms that Tom Bishop does not represent their views, Junker chucks threads to nonsense and J-man talks 'God did it' and other bollox, so I ask where is (and why not) is there a community answer to basic RE problems with the FE theory? You have no agreed map, answer to sunsets, moon appearance across the earth, pinhole camera observations etc so if you three can't even agree how do you hope to persuade us?


 Under the Globe Earth model, the sun doesn't rise nor set. Being as we rotate around the sun the sun would appear to rise and set depending on how far away it is from us. AKA Perception. That same law of perception would also apply to the flat earth model being we perceive things to look the way they due because of how our brain and eyes work. My point is in a flat Earth, the sun rotates around us, meaning the further the sun is from us it would appear smaller and smaller causing it to appear to set. However, it hasn't!

You have half of that correct - it would appear smaller and smaller as it receded into the distance. This is not what is observed in reality. The size of the sun stays pretty constant due to its size and distance.

 Have you ever been on a beach, something we have a lot of here in Panama city, Panama , but really seen how the sun looks overhead and how it looks right when it meets the horizon?  They are nowhere near the same size and depending on how close you are to it, based on how it rotates (your Earth, or my Sun) it would appear larger or smaller at the Horizon due to the season.  The tropic of Cancer and Capricorn dictates the seasons. No matter which model you use. :)

The sun itself is almost exactly the same size regardless of where it's being see. The light/corona around the sun is what's magnified some by it's setting. Look at it with a proper filter (welding mask rated over 16 or so, or one of those eclipse glasses) and you'll see the actual orb of the sun doesn't change in size. Well it'll change very slightly, but nowhere near the amount the FE distance change would dictate.

 Would you please point us in the direction of what it is you are talking about? Once again, what you have described is the opposite of what we see day in and day out as we look at the sun. What happens when you focus on a dot? Does it mean that everything else around it has disappeared? Well, perceptive will tell you that it has, but the reality is it hasn't! Flat Earthers believe that the moon and the sun are about the same size. but depending where you are on Earth and the time it is, the Sun will look bigger/smaller than "normal" and noticeably because of preceptive.
First, you can't see the disc of the sun overheard. It is FAR too bright. As has been mentioned, you need something to filter out the glare. When you do this and observe the sun, it stays almost the exact same size all day. That is because it is very large and very far away. FE theory can't possibly be right because they small sun only a few thousand miles away would substantially smaller as it moved out of sight.
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
-Terry50

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: What is the flat earth position?
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2017, 07:19:11 PM »
So on questions such as how sunsets occur on flat earth etc there is not a universal response from the FE crew...Pete Svarrior confirms that Tom Bishop does not represent their views, Junker chucks threads to nonsense and J-man talks 'God did it' and other bollox, so I ask where is (and why not) is there a community answer to basic RE problems with the FE theory? You have no agreed map, answer to sunsets, moon appearance across the earth, pinhole camera observations etc so if you three can't even agree how do you hope to persuade us?


 Under the Globe Earth model, the sun doesn't rise nor set. Being as we rotate around the sun the sun would appear to rise and set depending on how far away it is from us. AKA Perception. That same law of perception would also apply to the flat earth model being we perceive things to look the way they due because of how our brain and eyes work. My point is in a flat Earth, the sun rotates around us, meaning the further the sun is from us it would appear smaller and smaller causing it to appear to set. However, it hasn't!

You have half of that correct - it would appear smaller and smaller as it receded into the distance. This is not what is observed in reality. The size of the sun stays pretty constant due to its size and distance.

 Have you ever been on a beach, something we have a lot of here in Panama city, Panama , but really seen how the sun looks overhead and how it looks right when it meets the horizon?  They are nowhere near the same size and depending on how close you are to it, based on how it rotates (your Earth, or my Sun) it would appear larger or smaller at the Horizon due to the season.  The tropic of Cancer and Capricorn dictates the seasons. No matter which model you use. :)

The sun itself is almost exactly the same size regardless of where it's being see. The light/corona around the sun is what's magnified some by it's setting. Look at it with a proper filter (welding mask rated over 16 or so, or one of those eclipse glasses) and you'll see the actual orb of the sun doesn't change in size. Well it'll change very slightly, but nowhere near the amount the FE distance change would dictate.

 Would you please point us in the direction of what it is you are talking about? Once again, what you have described is the opposite of what we see day in and day out as we look at the sun. What happens when you focus on a dot? Does it mean that everything else around it has disappeared? Well, perceptive will tell you that it has, but the reality is it hasn't! Flat Earthers believe that the moon and the sun are about the same size. but depending where you are on Earth and the time it is, the Sun will look bigger/smaller than "normal" and noticeably because of preceptive.
First, you can't see the disc of the sun overheard. It is FAR too bright. As has been mentioned, you need something to filter out the glare. When you do this and observe the sun, it stays almost the exact same size all day. That is because it is very large and very far away. FE theory can't possibly be right because they small sun only a few thousand miles away would substantially smaller as it moved out of sight.

The problem is IDENTICAL to the problem with the moon...but with the advantage that staring at (and measuring) the moon doesn't trash your vision!

In RET terms, the moon is a lot closer than the sun - but it's still far enough away to show very little parallax or other weirdnesses.

In FET terms, the sun and moon are claimed to be about the same size and at about the same distance.

So whatever problem you might have with the sun - you should also have with the moon...and similar explanations should apply to both.

So both sun and moon are within a few percent of being the exact same size all day, every day, all year and for at least the past million or so years.   They are the same when vertically overhead as on the horizon.

You can demonstrate this for the sun - either with a #12 welding glass (which cost a couple of bucks on Amazon) - or with one of the couple of million pairs of eclipse glasses that were recently sold and will be collecting dust for quite a while!

Or - you can do it with the moon...which is essentially the same deal.

When the moon is at zenith, it's the exact same size it is when it's on the horizon.  The easiest way to convince yourself of this is to go out when there is a full moon - hold a penny at arm's length and line it up next to the moon.   You'll soon be convinced that the size doesn't change at all.

This is a BIG problem for Flat-Earthism.   The claims are:

1) Magic perspective squashes it to the horizon (but how come it doesn't squash the moon into a flattened oval too?)...and...
2) Big, bright glowy things defy the laws of perspective by remaining the same size, no matter how far away they are.   Tom likes to show photos of rows of streetlamps that kinda show this effect - but then stops answering the thread when people point out the explanation for that and the many reasons that this cannot possibly be true.

Neither of these solves the problem...not by a long shot.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Re: What is the flat earth position?
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2017, 10:15:20 PM »
Why would timeanddate.com need to reply to you about their source of data when there are hundreds of software libraries to calculate sunrise, sunset, phase of moon and other such phenomena?

How could a software library built on RET get right answers all over the globe when there is not a single FET software library to do so, unless RET is a better (I.e. closer to reality) model than FET?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: What is the flat earth position?
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2017, 12:20:03 AM »
Why would timeanddate.com need to reply to you about their source of data when there are hundreds of software libraries to calculate sunrise, sunset, phase of moon and other such phenomena?

How could a software library built on RET get right answers all over the globe when there is not a single FET software library to do so, unless RET is a better (I.e. closer to reality) model than FET?

Ancient Astronomy is based on historical tables and pattern prediction, and so is Modern Astronomy. The same methods persist today. Astronomers do not use the assumption that the earth is a globe for their predictions. Models have been attempted, but are none are in use due to accuracy issues.

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Re: What is the flat earth position?
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2017, 12:57:58 AM »
Why would timeanddate.com need to reply to you about their source of data when there are hundreds of software libraries to calculate sunrise, sunset, phase of moon and other such phenomena?

How could a software library built on RET get right answers all over the globe when there is not a single FET software library to do so, unless RET is a better (I.e. closer to reality) model than FET?

Ancient Astronomy is based on historical tables and pattern prediction, and so is Modern Astronomy. The same methods persist today. Astronomers do not use the assumption that the earth is a globe for their predictions. Models have been attempted, but are none are in use due to accuracy issues.

That is not an accurate statement. Yes, some pattern-based work is done, but there is also software to calculate numerous astronomical conditions.

Anyone with a little comp sci or advanced mathematics under their belt should be able to get through a large chunk of the documentation.
http://www.iausofa.org/background.html
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 01:02:56 AM by StinkyOne »
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
-Terry50

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: What is the flat earth position?
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2017, 01:27:40 AM »
Why would timeanddate.com need to reply to you about their source of data when there are hundreds of software libraries to calculate sunrise, sunset, phase of moon and other such phenomena?

How could a software library built on RET get right answers all over the globe when there is not a single FET software library to do so, unless RET is a better (I.e. closer to reality) model than FET?

Ancient Astronomy is based on historical tables and pattern prediction, and so is Modern Astronomy. The same methods persist today. Astronomers do not use the assumption that the earth is a globe for their predictions. Models have been attempted, but are none are in use due to accuracy issues.

That is not an accurate statement. Yes, some pattern-based work is done, but there is also software to calculate numerous astronomical conditions.

Anyone with a little comp sci or advanced mathematics under their belt should be able to get through a large chunk of the documentation.
http://www.iausofa.org/background.html

A mere collection of old algorithms that astronomers use.

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Re: What is the flat earth position?
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2017, 01:33:11 AM »
A mere collection of old algorithms that astronomers use.

Translation: "I have no idea how this works"

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Re: What is the flat earth position?
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2017, 01:43:04 AM »
Why would timeanddate.com need to reply to you about their source of data when there are hundreds of software libraries to calculate sunrise, sunset, phase of moon and other such phenomena?

How could a software library built on RET get right answers all over the globe when there is not a single FET software library to do so, unless RET is a better (I.e. closer to reality) model than FET?

Ancient Astronomy is based on historical tables and pattern prediction, and so is Modern Astronomy. The same methods persist today. Astronomers do not use the assumption that the earth is a globe for their predictions. Models have been attempted, but are none are in use due to accuracy issues.

That is not an accurate statement. Yes, some pattern-based work is done, but there is also software to calculate numerous astronomical conditions.

Anyone with a little comp sci or advanced mathematics under their belt should be able to get through a large chunk of the documentation.
http://www.iausofa.org/background.html

A mere collection of old algorithms that astronomers use.

You have new idea what you're talking about, so you try to dismiss it. In fairness, this is going to be over the heads of most people. I majored in comp sci and can do a fair job of reading their code. The current release is from 4/17 and you can view their change log. They continue to refine their collection of "old" algorithms. You do have a great sense of irony. You attempt to dismiss their algorithms as old and yet you try to pass off much older work as legit. Seriously, what has been done to further FE science in that past 100+ years? (And I don't mean repeats of the already disproved canal experiments)
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
-Terry50

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Re: What is the flat earth position?
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2017, 01:20:29 PM »
Why would timeanddate.com need to reply to you about their source of data when there are hundreds of software libraries to calculate sunrise, sunset, phase of moon and other such phenomena?

How could a software library built on RET get right answers all over the globe when there is not a single FET software library to do so, unless RET is a better (I.e. closer to reality) model than FET?

Ancient Astronomy is based on historical tables and pattern prediction, and so is Modern Astronomy. The same methods persist today. Astronomers do not use the assumption that the earth is a globe for their predictions. Models have been attempted, but are none are in use due to accuracy issues.

That is not an accurate statement. Yes, some pattern-based work is done, but there is also software to calculate numerous astronomical conditions.

Anyone with a little comp sci or advanced mathematics under their belt should be able to get through a large chunk of the documentation.
http://www.iausofa.org/background.html

A mere collection of old algorithms that astronomers use.

You have new idea what you're talking about, so you try to dismiss it. In fairness, this is going to be over the heads of most people. I majored in comp sci and can do a fair job of reading their code. The current release is from 4/17 and you can view their change log. They continue to refine their collection of "old" algorithms. You do have a great sense of irony. You attempt to dismiss their algorithms as old and yet you try to pass off much older work as legit. Seriously, what has been done to further FE science in that past 100+ years? (And I don't mean repeats of the already disproved canal experiments)

Yeah - Tom's claim that astronomers use "patterns" and not carefully worked out equations based on theory is complete nonsense.   He's clearly never spoken to a professional astronomer!  Yes they use equations based on things like the mass of stars and the laws of relativity - and they refine those equations to take into account new facts as they become known.

Tom fondly believes that they've been using patterns to predict the position of the moon (for example) by using an accurate clock and measuring how often it orbits.   Yes, they certainly did that - but they can also predict the slow movement of the moon away from earth based on the way that the earth is slowing down in rotation due to tides and transferring that momentum to the moon - they can extrapolate backwards from that to figure out how the moon was formed - then verify that by looking at the rocks brought back by the Apollo missions - and talk with paleontologist who confirm the different day lengths from millions of years ago compared to now.   Then they can confirm this slow increase in the Moon's orbit by measuring the time it takes a laser pulse to bounce off of the handful or retro-reflectors left by Apollo and the Russian moon rovers.

His ideas of science are VERY limited - his imagination doesn't extend past the Victorian era level of science.

The modern world can measure things in so many different ways - and compare them - and make sure that they fit into that big picture...and when things DON'T fit - we revise our ideas to refine them and then use that to make MORE predictions.

Sure, science doesn't know everything - but it knows more and more every day.

What we don't know is often fascinating.

If you have a roll of that pressure sensitive adhesive tape - the kind that looks cloudy until you rub on it and it goes clear...take it into a very dark room...wait for your eyes to adapt to the darkness...then slowly peel tape off of the roll.   You'll see a mysterious blue glow - right at the point where the tape comes off of the roll!    Science doesn't know why that happens!  We suspect that it has something to do with quantum theory - but this rather mundane thing is a mystery.

Will it still be a mystery in 10 years?  Probably not.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?