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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #60 on: February 15, 2019, 01:24:09 PM »
Totallackey is correct. NASA already admits that many of their images are manipulated. And they won't even tells us which ones were and in what manner. It is already admitted that Photoshop is liberally used.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 01:26:26 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline AATW

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Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #61 on: February 15, 2019, 01:29:36 PM »
Totallackey is correct. NASA admits that many of their images are manipulated. And they won't even tells us which ones were and were not, and if so, in what manner.
Yes. But to manipulate an image of an object you have to first have a photo of the object.
How are they manipulating photos of the earth taken from space if they're not in space?
Sure they composite sometimes, as I've said elsewhere a panorama photo you take on your phone is a composite, but in order to make it you have to be in front of the object you're taking a composite of.
The FE claim has to be surely that these entire photos are CGI, no? How do you have a photo of a globe earth taken from space if the earth is really flat and space travel is impossible?
So, back to the original post - the point of it was to show you have the necessary skills to detect fakery.
Do you?
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #62 on: February 15, 2019, 01:35:09 PM »
How would passing the random test in the OP prove whether this earth was really photoshopped behind the moon's horizon or not?



Does passing the test in the OP mean that all of these analysis' are true and that NASA is fraudulent?
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 01:42:22 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #63 on: February 15, 2019, 01:42:00 PM »
How would this random test in the OP prove whether this earth was really photoshopped behind the moon's horizon or not?

The point of the test isn't to prove whether the Earth was photoshopped in that image. The point of the test is for those of you in the FE community to show you have actual knowledge of how faking a photo is done. Essentially a sort of litmus test. Do you actually have the knowledge to show a photo that is known for a fact to have been tampered with is fake? If you can't manage that, why would your claims on the fakery of NASA photos have a leg to stand upon?

We're back to this dichotomy of you claiming NASA (and others) are perpetuating a hoax of a magnitude unheard of in the history of the world, with billions even trillions of dollars flowing through it. But they can't manage to make a photo that a photoshop amateur can pick apart? So, the challenge is to essentially attempt to provide some legitimacy to the claims.

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #64 on: February 15, 2019, 01:46:17 PM »
How would passing the random test in the OP prove whether this earth was really photoshopped behind the moon's horizon or not?



Does passing the test in the OP mean that all of these analysis' are true and that NASA is fraudulent?
Great! So this image is somehow prove fake, now can you give a source for where that image came from? A link to nasas website where it's used and stated to be real and not an artist depiction? Is that image even from NASA? Cite the sources.

EDIT: Also tom did you try this yourself on that very image?
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #65 on: February 15, 2019, 01:48:34 PM »
How would this random test in the OP prove whether this earth was really photoshopped behind the moon's horizon or not?

The point of the test isn't to prove whether the Earth was photoshopped in that image. The point of the test is for those of you in the FE community to show you have actual knowledge of how faking a photo is done. Essentially a sort of litmus test. Do you actually have the knowledge to show a photo that is known for a fact to have been tampered with is fake? If you can't manage that, why would your claims on the fakery of NASA photos have a leg to stand upon?

We're back to this dichotomy of you claiming NASA (and others) are perpetuating a hoax of a magnitude unheard of in the history of the world, with billions even trillions of dollars flowing through it. But they can't manage to make a photo that a photoshop amateur can pick apart? So, the challenge is to essentially attempt to provide some legitimacy to the claims.

So, from what I understand, you are arguing that the earth might not be photoshopped behind the moon in the above image, and that NASA's fraudulence all hinges on the ability to detect some random person's random photo manipulation.

That sounds like a farce to me.

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #66 on: February 15, 2019, 01:49:38 PM »
I did it too, looks like your proof of a fake image was faked.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 01:51:25 PM by ChrisTP »
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

totallackey

Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #67 on: February 15, 2019, 01:53:34 PM »
Totallackey is either trolling or doesn't understand, there is no reason to continue talking to him about this as he's unwilling to learn. Given he doesn't understand the difference between the pixel size of a bitmap image and a screen resolution I doubt he understands much to do with images or 'rendering' in general. He fails this thought experiment.
I do understand.

The OP states:
"Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!"

My initial response was directed to AATW...
How does picking out an item what was photshopped into one of a series of photos prove whether NASA's content is fake?
It doesn't. But what it does so is demonstrate that you have the necessary skills to tell real images from fake ones and are not just arbitrarily calling everything fake which doesn't fit in your world-view because of confirmation bias.
I do not believe I have witnessed any FE adherent label every image they see as "fake."
You replied:
I do not believe I have witnessed any FE adherent label every image they see as "fake."
Oh, so you think some images of the spherical earth from space are real then? Unless you're being pedantic and meaning literally every image ever of anything... But that would be a stupid thing to say given that there is a context.
I replied:
I do not believe I have witnessed any FE adherent label every image they see as "fake."
Oh, so you think some images of the spherical earth from space are real then?
I believe a great deal of the "information," in the images.

I do not believe the compilation of the "information," is correct and much of it is altered to render a false visual.
Since then, RE has been incessantly and falsely claiming my use of the word "fake."

The only times I have typed that word has been in response to these types of characterizations.



Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #68 on: February 15, 2019, 02:00:22 PM »
How would this random test in the OP prove whether this earth was really photoshopped behind the moon's horizon or not?

The point of the test isn't to prove whether the Earth was photoshopped in that image. The point of the test is for those of you in the FE community to show you have actual knowledge of how faking a photo is done. Essentially a sort of litmus test. Do you actually have the knowledge to show a photo that is known for a fact to have been tampered with is fake? If you can't manage that, why would your claims on the fakery of NASA photos have a leg to stand upon?

We're back to this dichotomy of you claiming NASA (and others) are perpetuating a hoax of a magnitude unheard of in the history of the world, with billions even trillions of dollars flowing through it. But they can't manage to make a photo that a photoshop amateur can pick apart? So, the challenge is to essentially attempt to provide some legitimacy to the claims.

So, from what I understand, you are arguing that the earth might not be photoshopped behind the moon in the above image, and that NASA's fraudulence all hinges on the ability to detect some random person's random photo manipulation.

That sounds like a farce to me.
That's not at all what I said above, but I suppose I should have expected your reply. For the record, the original image is a composite. So yeah, it's been through Photoshop (or a similar software tool). But that doesn't prove it's fake (as in not put together using real images), nor does it show that the person who posted it can actually tell a real image from a fake image. But I'm pretty sure the point of this challenge is either lost on you or you just enjoy being deliberately obtuse too much.

totallackey

Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #69 on: February 15, 2019, 02:01:40 PM »
Totallackey is correct. NASA admits that many of their images are manipulated. And they won't even tells us which ones were and were not, and if so, in what manner.
Yes. But to manipulate an image of an object you have to first have a photo of the object.
Okay.
How are they manipulating photos of the earth taken from space if they're not in space?
Sure they composite sometimes, as I've said elsewhere a panorama photo you take on your phone is a composite, but in order to make it you have to be in front of the object you're taking a composite of.
Panoramic photos...
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/photography/tips-and-solutions/how-make-panoramic-photographs
"Almost every point-and-shoot, mirrorless, DSLR, and smartphone camera has built-in panoramic modes. Once you select this mode, the photographer pans the camera right or left, up or down, and the camera’s computer automatically begins taking photos and stitching them together into a single panoramic file. This is as easy as it gets!"
So, the photos are stitched together.

In other words, a composite.

Who knows if anything was put together correctly or if information was purposefully left out or if it was put together according to a prior worldview held by the person rendering the final product?
The FE claim has to be surely that these entire photos are CGI, no? How do you have a photo of a globe earth taken from space if the earth is really flat and space travel is impossible?
Nope.
So, back to the original post - the point of it was to show you have the necessary skills to detect fakery.
Do you?
We do not need the skills to detect fakery.

NASA has admitted fakery in the past.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 02:04:33 PM by totallackey »

Offline jcks

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Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #70 on: February 15, 2019, 02:04:30 PM »
I did it too, looks like your proof of a fake image was faked.



I got similar results.



Seems to me this comparison is false.

EDIT: Just to humor myself I made the offset levels similar to what was in the "exposed" photo. The black levels in the background are impossible unless you specifically masked out that section to make it appear as if it were a cut out.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 02:12:06 PM by jcks »

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #71 on: February 15, 2019, 02:09:06 PM »
Yes which is exactly why it's necessary to have the skills to know when an image is intentionally manipulated. Tom has proven to himself and everyone ironically why the OP test was put out.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Offline AATW

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Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #72 on: February 15, 2019, 02:38:49 PM »
I did it too, looks like your proof of a fake image was faked.


Well, that's embarrassing.
I did a bit of Googling and found a similar thing when a NASA image was shown to be "fake" - as in there was some copying and pasting - and it turned out in the original NASA image the pasted in earth wasn't even there. So like the above the evidence of fakery had itself been faked.
Which all demonstrates the point the OP is making - before declaring images as faked or manipulated you have to have certain skills.
I'd be the first to admit I don't have them. I've not seen any evidence that FE people do either, it seems to be mostly baseless claims of fakery and confirmation bias, no actual skills in detecting fakery or manipulation are evident.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #73 on: February 15, 2019, 02:48:20 PM »
NASA relseased the image and then edited it out, as they always do when their fraud is exposed. It doesn't appear in all images.

Whoever put together that image did not indicate which version of the image they used for the left hand version. I find that it is more embarrassing that you did research the matter and find the source of the image.

Their fraud is still on the WayBackMachine, and is easily found.

http://lroc.sese.asu.edu is an official LROC website. NASA's logo is at the bottom of the page.

Image Link: https://web.archive.org/web/20170422035122/http://lroc.sese.asu.edu/ptif/download_file?fName=Earth_and_Limb_M1199291564L_color_2stretch_20151211_141513.tif

Warning: Very Large Image

I downloaded the image and adjusted the levels in Paint.net and...

« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 03:21:45 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #74 on: February 15, 2019, 03:01:10 PM »
Next I opened the current Feb 15 2019 version of the image and performed the same steps:

http://lroc.sese.asu.edu/ptif/download_file?fName=Earth_and_Limb_M1199291564L_color_2stretch_20151211_141513.tif



Looks like fraud to me. Does anyone want to argue that the above images are not photoshopped; either that the rectangle in the image means nothing, or that the rectangle was not photoshopped out in the current version?
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 03:16:52 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #75 on: February 15, 2019, 03:25:21 PM »
Good, thank you Tom for sourcing. After looking at the source images myself I can see there was photoshopping, but not so much to put the earth in, but to change the contrast of the moon surface compared to earth (an artistic preference they stated on their website).

"The Earth is much brighter (higher reflectance) than the Moon, especially from this angle; the Earth was captured near noon while the limb of the Moon was just appearing from the shadows of night, so the Moon was relatively dim. In the opening image the Moon and Earth were contrast-stretched separately to bring out details on the lunar surface. The two contrast stretch makes for a spectacular image, but it may be misleading in a purely scientific sense. Below you can see both the natural contrast and enhanced contrast - which do you prefer?"

http://lroc.sese.asu.edu/posts/895

So, I guess they selected around the earth and played with the contrast of the moon for a better presentation. They seem to have the actual source image in there too if you're interested to compare. So the image stating it was a 'copy paste' job was incorrect.

I'd be happy to keep analysing these kinds of images too as long as the sources are given and the locations are given too (ei, a link to the exact place on the official websites that the images come from where they claim the images as real).
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 03:31:00 PM by ChrisTP »
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #76 on: February 15, 2019, 03:37:25 PM »
Are you joking?

"That's not a NASA photoshop!! FAKE!"

"Well, it's a NASA photoshop, but done for innocent reasons! I'm now going to ignore that they edited it out in the current version"

From you link, the white rectangular outline does not occur in any of the three versions they give. The leftmost is the original contrast, and then the versions in the middle and right are with the "different" contrast:

« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 03:40:55 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #77 on: February 15, 2019, 03:45:08 PM »
Are you joking?

"That's not a photoshop!!"

"Well, it's a photoshop, but done for innocent reasons! I'm going to ignore that they edited it out in the current version"

The white outline does not occur in any of the three versions they give with different contrasts:


I thought we were coming to an understanding. They stated on their website the exact changes they made which would explain the outline in one of their images, even if they realised the outline was there and later fixed it. It's pretty honest and they are obviously just beautifying the photos they've captured.

So yes, after we've seen the source images and they've even stated how they edited the photo very openly (which again, artistic choice on their part so they could show the public a pretty picture). The earth is still in the photo and it's still taken from the satellite as stated, there's no proof of that being untrue.

What you're doing here is saying "look it's photoshopped therefore space isn't real and nasa arent really taking photos from orbit! This means the earth is flat too because they are liars" which is a stretch when all they did was up the contrast on a dark photo and told us they did it.

Also regarding those 3 images not having the outline, look down further to the massive image you can zoom and scroll on, just below those 3 images, that has the contrast square. :)
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 03:47:50 PM by ChrisTP »
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Offline AATW

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Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #78 on: February 15, 2019, 03:51:34 PM »
What they're quite openly saying they're doing is the equivalent of models being airbrushed.
Literally no-one would see admission of airbrushing and conclude that the model doesn't exist or the photoshoot didn't happen or the whole thing is CGI.

NASA quite openly admit they manipulate images. That is not logically equivalent to claiming that all their images are completely fake and they can't really do space travel.
If NASA can't do space travel then that entire image is CGI. It has to be. So why the hell would they make composite CGI images. If you're going to CGI something then just render the whole thing, why bother rendering parts separately and then cutting and pasting parts?
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

totallackey

Re: An opportunity to prove NASA images are fake!
« Reply #79 on: February 15, 2019, 04:04:04 PM »
What they're quite openly saying they're doing is the equivalent of models being airbrushed.
Literally no-one would see admission of airbrushing and conclude that the model doesn't exist or the photoshoot didn't happen or the whole thing is CGI.

NASA quite openly admit they manipulate images. That is not logically equivalent to claiming that all their images are completely fake and they can't really do space travel.
If NASA can't do space travel then that entire image is CGI. It has to be. So why the hell would they make composite CGI images. If you're going to CGI something then just render the whole thing, why bother rendering parts separately and then cutting and pasting parts?
Wait a minute...

Your stating for the record you believe that CGI rendering (i.e., the movies Gravity, Avengers, Avatar, etc.) is done at once (i.e., all parts compiled for a singular shoot)?