The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Community => Topic started by: Clem on March 06, 2017, 11:03:04 AM

Title: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Clem on March 06, 2017, 11:03:04 AM
Hi, everybody, I'm French and I am looking for a volunteer.
He needs to be a true believer, and if possible, has a youtube channel or a blog.
I want to start a Kickstarter campaign to gather money to send him into the stratosphere with a Mig29 or a ballon if we reach a higher goal.
Everything will be on my charge. I just need him for a couple days and for some interviews.
I want to make a documentary about that.
All the unspent money would be given to an association that promotes education and knowledge.
Please, let me know if you're interested.
Thank you.
Clem
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Roundy on March 06, 2017, 03:13:15 PM
In all honesty such an experiment wouldn't prove anything to me so I'd probably be a bad candidate (as much as I'd love to see the apparent illusion of curvature caused by electromagnetic acceleration firsthand).
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Boots on March 07, 2017, 05:35:42 AM
Here am I. Send me!
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Flatout on March 09, 2017, 02:11:28 AM
Why a flat earth believer?  If your experiment is really a "proof" then a roundy should be converted with a eye witness account.  Even better would be to send a flatty and a roundy on the same flight.  Then interview them both. 
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Clem on March 09, 2017, 08:08:47 AM
If i taise enough money to send two people up there, I'll be the roundy :)
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on March 09, 2017, 08:15:07 AM
So, a pre-vetted "Flat Earther" who may or may not say exactly what you want him to under financial incentive, and yourself.

Wow, I wonder how those interviews will go!
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Jura-Glenlivet on March 09, 2017, 08:20:37 AM

Well you go then ! Instead of prejudging the outcome, send the incorruptible, razor minded Sexpest.
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on March 09, 2017, 09:29:14 PM
Well you go then
Aside from the fact that I strongly doubt I'd be allowed on board, I can't see how I would be any more convincing. If I came back down and told you I clearly saw the Earth as flat, beyond a shadow of a doubt, would you believe me?

This is an experiment that's destined to fail from the get go. We already know what the Round Earther on board will say, and what the Flat Earther will say very likely depends on factors other than the shape of the Earth.
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Jura-Glenlivet on March 09, 2017, 09:53:02 PM
But even so if this guy is for real, this would be an amazing experience. You're right in the fact if you came back and said it's flat I would discount everything you say, as you're clearly mad and I have read and seen enough testaments of those who have been, to do so, but on a purely personel level I would snatch his hand off, aren't you at least curious enough (any of you) to test your ideas?

I mean, you would be first flat earther to reach that boundary, the new prophet. "I've been there and it's all bollocks" says the one eyed King. You could blow Dubay into the weeds, why wouldn't you go?
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on March 09, 2017, 11:57:31 PM
I mean, you would be first flat earther to reach that boundary, the new prophet. "I've been there and it's all bollocks" says the one eyed King. You could blow Dubay into the weeds, why wouldn't you go?
This may seem counter-intuitive given your frequent criticism of my egotism, but I'm not a glory seeker. Think about it - I brag so much as-is, obviously I've already found my glory.

All in all, it just sounds like a waste of time. It would achieve nothing, benefit nobody, all I'd be doing is participating in the waste of some random people's money. It just doesn't appeal to me.
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 10, 2017, 12:27:03 AM
I will volunteer and be honest about what I see.
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Boots on March 10, 2017, 01:50:29 AM
Will you give vague answers like you did about the Bishop Experiment?
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: prasnet on March 13, 2017, 07:00:52 AM
Hi, everybody, I'm French and I am looking for a volunteer.
He needs to be a true believer, and if possible, has a youtube channel or a blog.
I want to start a Kickstarter campaign to gather money to send him into the stratosphere with a Mig29 or a ballon if we reach a higher goal.
Everything will be on my charge. I just need him for a couple days and for some interviews.
I want to make a documentary about that.
All the unspent money would be given to an association that promotes education and knowledge.
Please, let me know if you're interested.
Thank you.
Clem
low cost, can buy their own
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-8dKnJs2UIwk/WMJWR97jgzI/AAAAAAAAA2A/7pG8eOEHzTcOa_eT4301Pyq2Kq4aDDzWQCLcB/s1600/melihat%2Blangit%2Bdengan%2Bbalon.jpg)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-L_Hnq8fFC6c/VupiRxlD3oI/AAAAAAAAAqM/SHjjxnoVsSk/s640/blogger-image--1856794969.jpg)
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Bonhomme on March 14, 2017, 04:16:16 PM
Hi, everybody, I'm French and I am looking for a volunteer.
He needs to be a true believer, and if possible, has a youtube channel or a blog.
I want to start a Kickstarter campaign to gather money to send him into the stratosphere with a Mig29 or a ballon if we reach a higher goal.
Everything will be on my charge. I just need him for a couple days and for some interviews.
I want to make a documentary about that.
All the unspent money would be given to an association that promotes education and knowledge.
Please, let me know if you're interested.
Thank you.
Clem


Hello Clem, I hope you get that money - even for two people.
I'm a french/italian+german/chinese mix and want to be your volunteer to start up with you in that great expedition!

sadly, I hardly can believe, that even with the money, we will get a "licence" to explore that ... because those keeper of round-earth-theorie are in control of such things .... why why why ? ;)

salut et a bientôt :D
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Nirmala on March 27, 2017, 01:48:53 AM
I have a cheaper experiment which I posted on Eric Dubay's videos and facebook page (I did not realize he is a controversial figure) but here is my experiment as addressed to Mr. Dubay:

I wonder if we could start a crowd funding campaign to buy Eric Dubay a series of plane tickets that would allow him to fly around the world in one easterly direction without ever leaving the southern hemisphere in a fraction of the time that any map of a flat earth would indicate was possible. Here are some flights and flight times taken from Kayak.com that would do the trick:
3:55p — 6:40p
Economy 2h 45m
Buenos Aires (EZE) — São Paulo (GRU)
GOL Linhas Aéreas 7453  ·  Narrow-body jet  ·  Boeing 737-800
Change planes in São Paulo (GRU)  Long layover
4h 55m
11:35p — 1:00p
Lands Sat, Apr 1
Economy 8h 25m
São Paulo (GRU) — Johannesburg (JNB)
South African 225  ·  Wide-body jet  ·  Airbus A330-200

7:10p — 3:55p
Lands Sat, Apr 1
Economy 11h 45m
Johannesburg (JNB) — Sydney (SYD) 2 seats remain
Qantas Airways 64  ·  Wide-body jet  ·  Boeing 747-400

16h 00m
1:50p — 6:55p
Economy 3h 05m
Sydney (SYD) — Auckland (AKL)
Air New Zealand 710  ·  Narrow-body jet  ·  Airbus A320-100/200
Change planes in Auckland (AKL) 
1h 10m
8:05p — 3:50p
Prem 11h 45m
Auckland (AKL) — Buenos Aires (EZE)
Air New Zealand 30  ·  Wide-body jet  ·  Boeing 787-9

Total time in the air is 37 hours and 45 minutes (not counting layovers). With an average speed in the air of say 580 mph (which is very generous given the aircraft being used), this would mean a maximum total distance of 21,895 miles to circumnavigate the globe while staying within the Souuthern Hemisphere. Note that these flights actually includes some north and south deviation which will add distance and time in the air which means this figure is higher than would be absolutely necessary to circumnavigate, but again all of these flights stay entirely within the Southern Hemisphere and so do not cross the equator.

Since both flat earthers and globe earthers agree that the distance around the equator is more than 24,000 miles (flat earth models actually have the distance around the equator as 39,000 miles-see note below), then it should not be possible to circumnavigate the globe within the southern hemisphere while only being in the air for 37 hours and 45 minutes while using modern day commercial aricraft. And it should be even more impossible with a flat earth model where the distance at the southern latitudes of the cities traversed would be much, much greater. Sao Paulo is the northernmost city on this itinerary and is 7991 miles from the North Pole. So the circumference of the earth at that latitude on a flat earth would be over 50, 200 miles.

The question I would pose to Mr. Dubay is "If you personally traveled around the world in a combined flight time of less than 38 hours without leaving the Southern Hemisphere, would you then be willing to admit that the flat earth model you propose is fatally flawed?" If the answer is yes, then maybe we could get a crowd-funding project to buy your tickets and put this whole debate to rest. What do you say, Mr Dubay? Are you willing to test your theory in a real world experiment that cannot be faked and that would allow you to time your own flights, and use whatever means you need to use to determine that you were truly in the cities included on this circumnavigation trip and had stayed within the Southern Hemisphere?

Note regarding the distance around the equator: I found this post on the following page:https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=59426.0

"A thought occured to me when doing the maths for my ladder experiment: the distance around the equator is drastically different between FE and RE models. Both models use the same equation: C = t*r, but each have a different radius. For RE, the radius is that of the Earth at 6371 km (3,959 mi); for FE it's the distance from the north pole to the equator, roughly 10,009 km (6219 mi).

Thus, RE says the equator is roughly 40,000 km (24,874 mi) while FE says it should be 62,888 km (39,077 mi). In 1986 an historical and well-documented flight took place wherein two people got into an airplane at Edwards Air Force Base and took off. Just over nine days later they landed at Edwards Air Force Base, having circled the Earth more or less about the Equator[1][2] with a total flight distance of 40,212 kilometers (24,987 miles).

Was this a scam? Did the pilots fly a shorter, northern route for nine days instead of sticking to the equator? Or is the FE distance around the equator false?"

It is from these calculations that I came up with the 39,000 mile length of the equator for the flat earth, and then extrpolated based on the distance to Sao Paulo from the North Pole.

Who knows, we might even get some flat earth people to go along and test it with Mr. Dubay. The total cost for the around the world portion of the journey would be under $5000 (there is a cheaper flight from Sydney to Buenos Aries through Santiago). Are there any true believers in the flat earth that would be willing to put their beliefs on the line for $5000? Or are there enough people who are just tired of the arguments back and forth that would be willing to pay for Mr. Dubay to make the trip and settle this question once and for all? I would chip in $100 to such a crowd-funding effort.

The ball is in your court, Mr. Dubay. Are you game to test your own theory?

Note added: Anyone on this website willing to make the journey? At just $5-7000, it would seem like a quick and easy way for the believers in a flat earth to test their theory.
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Nirmala on March 27, 2017, 05:46:19 PM
I posted the challenge described in my previous post in a PM to Tom Bishop and he replied:

"I would just say that I was in the Southern Hemisphere of the Bi-Polar Flat Earth model."

So I wrote him again and asked:

Using the bipolar map that has been displayed many times on this website, how would you explain the flight times:
Auckland to Buenos Aries 11 hours 45 minutes
Sao Paulo to Johanneburg: 8 hours 25 minutes
When clearly on the bipolar map Aukland is twice as far from Buenos Aries as Sao Paulo is from Johannesburg.
Also there are flights from Sydney to Santiago that take 12 hours and 40 minutes. On the bipolar earth model Sydney to Santiago is around three times as far as Sao Paulo to Johanneburg.
Finally, Sydney to Auckland takes only 3 hours and 5 minutes, and it is TWICE as far as Sao Paulo to Johannesburg on the bipolar map.
Can you explain these glaring differences in flight times versus distance traveled on the bipolar map?


He replied:

"The bipolar map is just a guide for the idea. No one mapped out where the continents would appear."

So I replied to him again with:

So, are you saying that after thousands of years of land and sea travel, and 100 years of air travel, that no one has worked out the location and shape and size of the continents relative to each other in a way that can be accurately represented on a map? We are talking about creating a two dimensional map of the relatively two dimensional surface of a flat earth, and yet the best visual representation of it that you can provide shows Singapore to be over 10,000 miles from Auckland, when I can fly commercially between the two cities in under 10 hours?

This strains credulity to the breaking point and beyond.

I saw claims that this site is just a joke meant to draw people into pointless discussions, and now I think that has got to be the only explanation for the glaring inconsistencies that no flat earther on here can explain.



Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Nirmala on March 27, 2017, 09:35:38 PM
Another response from Tom:

"Maps aren't accurate. Why should we assume that they are? Have you looked at the size of Greenland lately on a Mercator map?"

My reply to him:

No one has ever claimed that a Mercator map was accurate, and in fact it is notoriously inaccurate. That is what happens when you transfer a three dimensional object to two dimensions. It becomes distorted.

However, that would not happen when you represent a two dimensional object on a two dimensional map. There is absolutely no reason why someone cannot create a two-dimensional map of a flat surface that is completely accurate and to scale. That should be a strong point in favor of a flat earth....except that no one has ever been able to accomplish this ridiculously simple task, probably because the object being represented is not two-dimensional or flat.

Distortion matters less in a map of a small area of a sphere, which is why say a map of the state of Florida is pretty accurate in two dimensions. The differences in the third dimension are slight enough to not matter as a practical matter. This is also why Buckminster Fuller's map is roughly accurate in terms of scale

However, there is one form of map that shows a completely accurate representation of the continents, where distances from any two points on earth are completely accurate according to the scale of the map, and according to the observed distance when driving or sailing or flying between those two points. What kind of perfect map is that? It is called a globe! A globe even explains perfectly why in the northern hemisphere, what appears to be a flight path that curves to the north is often the shortest route between two points. Hence the use of northern routes to fly from say Los Angeles to Dubai. If you measure the distance on a globe, the shortest path is over the northern end of Greenland.

So for hundreds of years we have had a map that works perfectly to show the correct distances and now flight times between any two points. It seems fatuous to claim that maps aren't accurate when there is one map that is completely accurate. Unfortunately, it also can be used to prove that the earth is a round ball. Does that seem like a good reason to deny the accuracy of the perfect map? Airlines use this map. Ships use this map. And when I drive across the US, I am actually using the info from the globe to calculate my driving distances, or it would take me much longer than it does in the real world.

If the flat earth was real, there would be a corresponding accurate map. There just is not. Again it seems silly to blame the map makers, when it is the underlying model of reality that is incorrect.
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 27, 2017, 10:43:00 PM
Lets just talk here.

Quote
However, that would not happen when you represent a two dimensional object on a two dimensional map. There is absolutely no reason why someone cannot create a two-dimensional map of a flat surface that is completely accurate and to scale. That should be a strong point in favor of a flat earth....except that no one has ever been able to accomplish this ridiculously simple task, probably because the object being represented is not two-dimensional or flat.

Mapping the world is a ridiculously simple task?  ???

So for hundreds of years we have had a map that works perfectly to show the correct distances and now flight times between any two points. It seems fatuous to claim that maps aren't accurate when there is one map that is completely accurate. Unfortunately, it also can be used to prove that the earth is a round ball. Does that seem like a good reason to deny the accuracy of the perfect map? Airlines use this map. Ships use this map. And when I drive across the US, I am actually using the info from the globe to calculate my driving distances, or it would take me much longer than it does in the real world.

If the flat earth was real, there would be a corresponding accurate map. There just is not. Again it seems silly to blame the map makers, when it is the underlying model of reality that is incorrect.

Where is your evidence that the distance between every point on earth is completely accurate? You are just waving your hands around without any real large scale evidence to point to.
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Nirmala on March 27, 2017, 10:56:37 PM
I sent another reply before seeing your invitation to discuss it here.

You say, "Mapping the world is a ridiculously simple task?"

Mapping a two dimensional object onto a two dimensional sheet of paper is ridiculously simple....in comparison to mapping a three dimensional object to a two dimensional piece of paper. The latter requires the use of perspective. The former does not. Again, a small enough area makes this obvious, so a blueprint or elevation drawing of a 20,000 square foot building is for all practical purposes completely accurate and does not require the use of perspective techniques. If I want to focus on one corner of the building/blueprint, I just move my eyes over that part of the blueprint to get an accurate sense of the proportions of the rooms in that corner. However an artist's rendering of that same building as it appears from a distance would need to use all of the tricks of perspective to make it look proportional due to the introduction of a third dimension to the drawing (the distance from the artist's eyes to the various parts of the building). So the artist would draw a distant part of the building with smaller dimensions and a nearer part of the building with larger dimensions. If a builder tried to build the building by using the dimensions of the artist's view, the building would be bizarrely proportioned.

Same thing with a map. Any two-dimensional viewpoint of a three dimensional object, like a round planet, will introduce all kinds of distortions. However, a two dimensional drawing of a flat object as seen from above does not have these problems. Even if it is a very large map or drawing, the distances everywhere on the map should correspond to the scale of the map with complete accuracy. No map of the flat earth accomplishes anything close to this simple task. All of the distances are known and have been measured on the surface of the earth or in the air in numerous surveys. All the map maker would need to do if the earth was flat is enter all of those distances. Someone on youtube actually tried to do this with the flat earth map by adjusting it to show distances that correspond to actual flight times: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POzPJOc_FBg  Unfortunately, he was unable to adjust his map to take into account all of the flight times and distances. To check this,you just need to look at some of the flights I have already mentioned, i.e. Sydney to Johannesburg versus Sydney to Santiago. Or you can just look at the flight from Sydney to Perth and realize his map is grossly inaccurate. On his map, the distance from Sydney to Perth is much greater than the distance from the Panama Canal to the north pole.

And I notice you did not address the simple fact that all of the distances between any two points on earth correspond exactly and perfectly to scale when using a globe. Why do you suppose that is the case? Do you not find it intriguing at the very least that a ball shaped representation of the earth is completely accurate when any two-dimensional representation is invariably inaccurate? Why would any two dimensional representations of the earth have any distortion if the earth were truly flat (and therefore the earth was two-dimensional for the purposes of map making)? Even a flat representation of the United States incurs these distortions if you use a large enough scale and measure carefully enough. Do you think it should be difficult to show the distances and shape of the United States accurately on a map, even though it has been so carefully measured and mapped? And yet, it is impossible with only two dimensions to show it's shape and all of the distances involved with complete accuracy, even though the map as we know it is accurate enough for most purposes. But if you wanted to accurately compute the flight distance from Seattle to Miami, you better use a spherical model or you will be incorrect in your calculation. You can do this with either a globe, or with a three dimensional calculation that includes the curvature of the earth.

Your response that maps are not accurate is a classic straw man argument. I did not say maps are accurate. I said the globe is accurate. How do you explain that fact?

You also said, "Where is your evidence that the distance between every point on earth is completely accurate? You are just waving your hands around without any real large scale evidence to point to."

The evidence is all of the recorded info throughout history about the distances between two points when traveled by foot, car, ship or airplane. All of these are somewhat affected by the curving nature of roads and mountains, water currents, air currents, etc, but when these are taken into account the distances are just as they appear on a globe. Can you show me one example where with repeated experiments, the actual distance on the surface of the earth was inexplicably different than what is calculated using a globe or three dimensional geometry? All of the flight times and distances I have quoted in this thread and tens of thousands more are accurate when plotted on a globe. How much evidence do you need? It is easy to test for yourself. Pick any two cities, say Sydney and Perth. Measure them on a globe with a clearly marked scale and then compare that to a driving map showing distances or a flight path showing distances. Any inaccuracies would be due to the shape of the roads on the ground, but in the air, they will compare to within a small degree. Remember that even airplanes must follow "highways" in the sky, so some inaccuracies would be introduced. But the results will be more accurate and consistent than any two dimensional map ever created. And in the case of the flat earth maps I have seen so far, the consistency and accuracy is many orders of magnitude greater on a globe.
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 28, 2017, 12:28:46 PM
Quote
I sent another reply before seeing your invitation to discuss it here.

You say, "Mapping the world is a ridiculously simple task?"

Mapping a two dimensional object onto a two dimensional sheet of paper is ridiculously simple....in comparison to mapping a three dimensional object to a two dimensional piece of paper. The latter requires the use of perspective. The former does not. Again, a small enough area makes this obvious, so a blueprint or elevation drawing of a 20,000 square foot building is for all practical purposes completely accurate and does not require the use of perspective techniques. If I want to focus on one corner of the building/blueprint, I just move my eyes over that part of the blueprint to get an accurate sense of the proportions of the rooms in that corner. However an artist's rendering of that same building as it appears from a distance would need to use all of the tricks of perspective to make it look proportional due to the introduction of a third dimension to the drawing (the distance from the artist's eyes to the various parts of the building). So the artist would draw a distant part of the building with smaller dimensions and a nearer part of the building with larger dimensions. If a builder tried to build the building by using the dimensions of the artist's view, the building would be bizarrely proportioned.

Sorry, but I don't see how anything of you said really has mapping the world trivially easy.

Quote
All of the distances are known and have been measured on the surface of the earth or in the air in numerous surveys.

Please provide us the database of the measured distances between every point on earth if you think that all of this exists somewhere. This is the second time I have asked.

Quote
All the map maker would need to do if the earth was flat is enter all of those distances. Someone on youtube actually tried to do this with the flat earth map by adjusting it to show distances that correspond to actual flight times: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POzPJOc_FBg  Unfortunately, he was unable to adjust his map to take into account all of the flight times and distances. To check this,you just need to look at some of the flights I have already mentioned, i.e. Sydney to Johannesburg versus Sydney to Santiago. Or you can just look at the flight from Sydney to Perth and realize his map is grossly inaccurate. On his map, the distance from Sydney to Perth is much greater than the distance from the Panama Canal to the north pole.

Did he use the bi-polar model of the earth? Were his numbers for flight times from a website that merely gave a predicted estimate?

Quote
And I notice you did not address the simple fact that all of the distances between any two points on earth correspond exactly and perfectly to scale when using a globe.  Why do you suppose that is the case?

I have yet to see evidence from you that this is the case.

Quote
Do you not find it intriguing at the very least that a ball shaped representation of the earth is completely accurate when any two-dimensional representation is invariably inaccurate? Why would any two dimensional representations of the earth have any distortion if the earth were truly flat (and therefore the earth was two-dimensional for the purposes of map making)? Even a flat representation of the United States incurs these distortions if you use a large enough scale and measure carefully enough.

Navigators sure seem to have been using these inaccurate maps to navigate the world for hundreds of years. What makes you think that they could not use an inaccurate globe?

Quote
Your response that maps are not accurate is a classic straw man argument. I did not say maps are accurate. I said the globe is accurate. How do you explain that fact?

Navigators are able to use those inaccurate maps to navigate, despite Greenland being the size of Africa. How do we know that the globe is accurate?

Quote
You also said, "Where is your evidence that the distance between every point on earth is completely accurate? You are just waving your hands around without any real large scale evidence to point to."

The evidence is all of the recorded info throughout history about the distances between two points when traveled by foot, car, ship or airplane.

Where are these records then? Come on.

Quote
All of the flight times and distances I have quoted in this thread and tens of thousands more are accurate when plotted on a globe.

It appears that you merely went to Kyak.com and got some flight estimates. How do we know that those estimates will meet reality? 1 out of 4 flights are delayed.

Quote
How much evidence do you need? It is easy to test for yourself. Pick any two cities, say Sydney and Perth. Measure them on a globe with a clearly marked scale and then compare that to a driving map showing distances or a flight path showing distances.

Any inaccuracies would be due to the shape of the roads on the ground, but in the air, they will compare to within a small degree. Remember that even airplanes must follow "highways" in the sky, so some inaccuracies would be introduced. But the results will be more accurate and consistent than any two dimensional map ever created. And in the case of the flat earth maps I have seen so far, the consistency and accuracy is many orders of magnitude greater on a globe.

Again, please show us where these accurate measurements have taken place.
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Nirmala on March 28, 2017, 04:12:56 PM
I clarified that mapping a flat earth would be much easier because you are mapping a relatively two-dimensional object, like the floor plan of a building. As you say, maps have been around for hundreds of years. It would seem that someone would have gotten it right by now, if indeed they were mapping a two dimensional object.

As for navigation, for hundreds of years navigators have taken into account the distortions in their maps. This is from a Britannica.com article about navigation charts: "In 1599 the English mathematician Edward Wright supplied a rational explanation of Mercator’s projection and provided tables by which the distorted distances could be corrected."

I could not find a single database for the entire earth, but I found this site that will tell you driving distances on Australia, which I picked because it is so distorted on every flat earth map I have seen: https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/distanceresult.html?p1=240&p2=196
The results for driving from Sydney to Perth come out at 3934 km which follows roads and wisely avoids traversing water
I also found this calculator for calculating distances which is based on a round earth:
https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/distance.html
It calculated and displayed a slightly curved path from Sydney to Perth that measures 3298 km which makes sense given no roads are involved.
Quantas has a Flight Aware tracking system for flight # 581 from Sydney to Perth showing a flight distance of 3281 km (2039 miles) with expected average flight speed of 409 mph:
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/QFA581
You will see on that page that the last 14 flights all arrived within 5 hours of departure except one which was 5 hours and 2 minutes.

These are all calculations based on a round earth and they are incredibly accurate. I challenge you to show me a map based on a flat earth that comes even remotely close to these calculations. A globe does allow these calculations to work, but so do map projections based on a round earth that are biased to show the continents in their correct relative sizes such as the Dymaxion map by Buckminster Fuller or the Authagraph projection (note that the best way to do this is to cut the earth up into triangles which can be flattened out and then also can be folded back up to make a roughly spherical shaped globe).

The reason these calculations do not work based on a flat earth model is simple, the earth is not flat. That also explains why the flight path in the link above curves south over the water. A straight line on a two dimensional map does not take into account the curvature of the earth. I am pretty sure the airlines would not fly hundreds of miles out of their way just to support a conspiracy to keep us all in the dark about the shape of the earth.

And finally, thank you for taking the time this time to respond in slightly more depth to my points. I do appreciate it and have truly enjoyed exploring this flat earth theory as it has taught me much. However, I am done debating this for now, so this will be my last post. I wish you all the best.


Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Nirmala on March 28, 2017, 06:35:09 PM
I said I was done, but I found two more relevant links. The first is a description of how great circle distances are calculated using the geometry of a sphere: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great-circle_distance Note that these distance calculations only work on the surface of a sphere.

The second link is a website with a database of 1000 air routes using the great circle distances: http://www.greatcirclemapper.net/en/routes.html
Note that the site also allows you to calculate the great circle distance between any two airports using the spherical model of the earth.

The second website gave the calculation for Sydney to Perth as 3284 km which is what the earlier websites also predicted, and what Quantas flies every day. You can use the flight tracking system to check historical records of hundreds if not thousands of flight times and distances on Quantas. I did not search other airlines, but they may have similar databases. Correction: The flight tracker website showing the Quantas data has similar data for over 10,000 operators of aircraft, so you should be able to check any airline and any route on there and find a historical record of flight times and the calculated distance and expected speed. So you asked for a large database of historical records of distances traveled, and I have now provided you with one that probably has hundreds of thousands if not millions of historical records of actual flights flown by commercial aircraft of all types.

Maybe the reason there is no database for every two points on the earth is that there is no need for one when you can so easily calculate the data using a spherical model of the earth. Here is another calculator that allows you to calculate based on the latitude and longitude of any two points: http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/gccalc.shtml

What method or methods do you propose for calculating distances on a flat earth? If the earth is truly flat, these calculations should be fairly simple as they would all involve just two dimensions instead of three. No matter what the actual outline or shape is of the flat earth, you could simply lay a right angle grid over it and thereby calculate all of the distances from any two points within that grid using the simplest geometry of right triangles. Can you show me any such examples of a grid showing these kind of coordinates? Are there any calculators for a flat earth that even cover say one hemisphere? The spherical earth has such a system of coordinates known as latitude and longitude, but they are not aligned at right angles due to the spherical model....and yet they work in every test case. It should be easy to create such a grid on a flat earth and yet no one has done so. Why is that? Can you show me any examples where calculations from a grid on a map of the flat earth matched up with actual flight paths and times? If not, why not, when round earth calculators are so common and accurate?

You keep asking me for data, and I have offered some. I have not seen any data from you that supports a different arrangement of the continents or a different calculation or measurement of the distances between well known airports based on a flat earth. Can you give me just one example? And if you do offer such an example, does it contradict any other possible calculations, such as on the map I shared where some air routes are correct, but others are not? I have offered examples on both the unipolar and bipolar maps where the route distances  versus the flight times are incorrect. Can you show me one example where the distance calculated on a sphere using the calculators linked to above do not correspond to actual flight times? It seems I have offered a lot of data. Maybe it is your turn :)
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Roundy on March 29, 2017, 02:05:04 AM
I thought you were finished here.  ???
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Nirmala on March 29, 2017, 06:58:29 PM
I thought you were finished here.  ???

I couldn't help myself from coming back, and thanks for making me feel so welcome here  :'(

In general, I am moving on. However, if anyone does respond to this discussion, just send me a PM to alert me if you want me to consider your ideas. I would be very open to it if any flat earther could show me a world map that does work with the air travel data in the links I shared. But it seems pretty obvious that this would have already happened if the earth were truly flat. It is a bit mind boggling to think that in this day and age someone could suggest that no one is able to draw an accurate map of the surface of our planet, when it has been traversed so many millions of times. I found a source online that suggests that 102,465 commercial airline flights occur each and every day covering 49,871 regularly scheduled routes. In 2014 that worked out to 37.4 million flights, which does not even include private aircraft and military flights. How is it possible that all of those pilots seem to be arriving at their destinations according to the flight paths worked out using spherical geometry? And really, why would there not be detailed maps at least of all of the most populated areas and major air routes over the ocean that could be pieced together into a relatively accurate map of this supposed flat earth, if in fact those millions of flights were over a relatively flat earth? Are all commercial, military and private pilots in on this grand conspiracy to deceive the rest of us into believing that the earth is round?

And wouldn't a lot of passengers have complained by now if all of the flights in the southern hemisphere took much longer than the airlines say they should take and are actually being flown each and every day? I saw a youtube video where someone claimed that these flights are scheduled but never actually happen. Don't you think thousands of travelers would have complained by now that they are unable to book regularly scheduled flights listed on multiple airlines and flight booking sites? I personally have flown from Sydney to Perth, and it took about 5 hours. Where are all of the other stymied travelers who are not getting where they want to go, or who are landing hours and hours later than they were promised?

Discussing things on this site can feel like talking to empty space, or I am asked why I have not left yet :-\ To his credit, at least Tom Bishop tried to respond, albeit briefly and at times nonsensically, to my questions. Anyone else want to take a shot?
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Nirmala on March 29, 2017, 09:13:18 PM
The typical flat earth map is what is called a Polar Azimuthal Equidistant Projection. As described on Wikipedia, "It has the useful properties that all points on the map are at proportionately correct distances from the center point, and that all points on the map are at the correct azimuth (direction) from the center point. A useful application for this type of projection is a polar projection which shows all meridians (lines of longitude) as straight, with distances from the pole represented correctly. The flag of the United Nations contains an example of a polar azimuthal equidistant projection. It is useful for showing airline distances from center point of projection and for seismic and radio work."

So it shows fairly accurate distances for north/south airline flights in the Northern Hemisphere including all great circle flights that go near the north pole, as those flights would travel generally north and then generally south, such as Los Angeles to Dubai. And if you plot these flights on this kind of map, distances and the path flown are pretty close to being accurate. Flights due east or west would be less accurate and more so as you move further away from the pole. Once you reach the Southern Hemisphere, then east /west distances are all messed up. This is why continents in the Northern Hemisphere look pretty porportional to their actual shape. Then as you approach and cross the equator to the south, things get more and more messed up which is why South America and Australia look so disproportional to the shape they would be if you measured them from the air (you can use the flight tracker linked to above to check this, and Sydney to Perth is the easiest example to check).

Just for fun, below is a Polar Azimuthal Equidistant Projection using the South Pole as the center point.

And guess what? Now everything stated above is still true if you simply swap the words North and South. Continents and flight paths in the Southern Hemisphere suddenly look relatively correct and the continents and flight paths in the North are all messed up....and I mean really messed up!!

I am not surprised that  no one has argued for a flat earth with the south pole at the center! And this is true, even though many other aspects of the flat earth model would work almost as well such as the path of the sun and moon in the sky. Luckily for flat earth proponents, most of the earth's population lives in the Northern Hemisphere, so the gross discrepancies in their map do not jump out at people who are north-centric in their worldview.

It is also ironic that the main map used by flat earth proponents is actually created by projecting the earth as it appears on a globe onto a flat surface. Their own map is based on a globe! The bipolar map is a Gott-Mugnolo Azimuthal projection which is a similar projection taken with a point on the equator as the center, and while it does correct some distances, it also has distortions and also is a projection taken from a globe!!

Can't the flat earthers come up with their own map without cheating off of the globe?
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on March 29, 2017, 11:42:26 PM
The typical flat earth map is what is called a Polar Azimuthal Equidistant Projection.

[...]

The bipolar map is a Gott-Mugnolo Azimuthal projection
Both FES maps severely predate their use as "projections" of the hypothetical globe Earth. But hey, nice try!
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Flatout on March 30, 2017, 12:30:04 AM
The typical flat earth map is what is called a Polar Azimuthal Equidistant Projection.

[...]

The bipolar map is a Gott-Mugnolo Azimuthal projection
Both FES maps severely predate their use as "projections" of the hypothetical globe Earth. But hey, nice try!
Which FES maps?  What years?  The first writings about azimuthal project are before 1100 AD.
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Nirmala on March 30, 2017, 01:01:12 AM
The typical flat earth map is what is called a Polar Azimuthal Equidistant Projection.

[...]

The bipolar map is a Gott-Mugnolo Azimuthal projection
Both FES maps severely predate their use as "projections" of the hypothetical globe Earth. But hey, nice try!
Which FES maps?  What years?  The first writings about azimuthal project are before 1100 AD.

The first known globe was created 2100 years ago, and the oldest existent globe is from 1492.

On this page, it suggests that early Greek philosophers used trigonometry to project how the earth would look from space to create some early maps....so even they were working from the concept of a globe: https://www.wired.com/2014/11/get-to-know-a-projection-azimuthal-orthographic/

But clearly the maps on this website are taken from more recent globes as they show Australia and Anarctica discovered in 1606 and 1820 or thereabouts.

And none of this actually counters any of the flight data I have posted that is based on spherical earth calculations and confirmed by actual recorded flight times. Even if there are maps predating modern globes, do they have accurate distances between all points as calculated by spherical trigonometry, depicted on any modern globe, and measured by modern aircraft? Where are the flat earth maps that accomplish this relatively simple task given that they are supposed to represent a roughly two-dimensional surface? Why do globes accomplish this task when no flat map is able to do so without distortion?
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Nirmala on March 30, 2017, 03:38:10 PM
Discussing which came first, the flat earth map or a globe is a red herring when one is grossly inaccurate and one is completely accurate.

Do any flat earthers have a better map or a rational explanation as to why their map is so grossly inaccurate, when the flight data is there to clearly document that the actual distances between airports is identical to those shown on a globe?

Or maybe instead you can distract us again from this discussion by referring to maps from hundreds of years ago that do not even show all of the continents? Is that the best you can do?
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on March 30, 2017, 07:04:56 PM
Discussing which came first, the flat earth map or a globe is a red herring when one is grossly inaccurate and one is completely accurate.
Agreed, I'm just being very generous by entertaining the globe Earth as a possibility. If you'd rather, I can stop being so nice.
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Nirmala on March 30, 2017, 08:25:04 PM
Discussing which came first, the flat earth map or a globe is a red herring when one is grossly inaccurate and one is completely accurate.
Agreed, I'm just being very generous by entertaining the globe Earth as a possibility. If you'd rather, I can stop being so nice.

Can't you both be nice and show me air flight data that contradicts the flight paths and distances as calculated on a globe or sphere? Or show me flight data that consistently corresponds to a two dimensional map of the earth? Or even show me a two dimensional map of the earth that does not grossly distort the shape and size of some continents, as well as the distances between airports located on those continents? I was merely pointing out that the question of how old maps are does not address 99% of what I have been writing about on here. Do you have any good reliable information to share that contradicts the data I have shared? There is no need to be unkind if you have valid information to share.
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Ptolemy on April 01, 2017, 05:13:32 PM
Stop arguing and trying to use math and science to prove something that is beyond our comprehension.

I'll go in a pressurized cabin , attached to weather ballons, pressurized suit and jump out at a determined altitude, I'll need a pressurized suit, helmet and oxygen with 2 parachutes, main and back up. Also a floatation device in the event I land in water. I will wear multiple cameras as well as audio devices.
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Ptolemy on April 01, 2017, 05:51:32 PM
@Nirmala, your argument of the Australian flight will not hold up in factual based theories because the "speed" of the aircraft is the determining factor in the distance calculated. I recently flew from New York to Taiwan, 38000 feet at approx 600mph. Tbh, I do not think the true speed is given, therefore your argument does not have substantial discovery to base an argument on.

Conversely, your speed of x is determined with a distance y that can not be confirmed.
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Nirmala on April 01, 2017, 06:11:37 PM
@Nirmala, your argument of the Australian flight will not hold up in factual based theories because the "speed" of the aircraft is the determining factor in the distance calculated. I recently flew from New York to Taiwan, 38000 feet at approx 600mph. Tbh, I do not think the true speed is given, therefore your argument does not have substantial discovery to base an argument on.

The flight data for that Sydney to Perth flight shows the average speed on this trip as 409 mph at https://flightaware.com/live/flight/QFA581, which makes sense since the top cruising speed of the Airbus 330-200 aircraft is 541 mph (http://planes.axlegeeks.com/l/232/Airbus-A330-200). Remember that the total flight time includes time on the ground taxiing to and from the terminal, as well as slower speeds near takeoff and landing.

So, I do not understand the point of your post as the flight data says the flight is 2039 miles long. The speed is given as averaging 409 mph. The last 14 flights all were 5 hours or less except one that took 5 hours and 8 minutes. How much more data do you need? I am glad you were able to fly somewhere at 600 mph, but that does not contradict the actual flight data posted for these specific flights.

By the way, what airline and what exact flight did you take from New York to Taiwan? You could look it up on the flightaware database and see what is listed for average flight speed for that route also.
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Ptolemy on April 01, 2017, 06:40:06 PM
I do not trust the flight data that you are referencing is even remotely accurate.

Federal Aviation Administration works hand in hand with NASA

Eva Air was the airline.
Jfk to Taiwan int. Airport
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Nirmala on April 01, 2017, 07:30:43 PM
I do not trust the flight data that you are referencing is even remotely accurate.

Federal Aviation Administration works hand in hand with NASA

Eva Air was the airline.
Jfk to Taiwan int. Airport

So, are you saying that the CASA (the Australian equivalent of the FAA) and Quantas airlines are cooperating with NASA (a US government agency) to fudge the data on the flight tracking website to fool people into thinking the world is round? Why don't frequent fliers in Australia complain if the flight times do not match what is shown on Quantas' website? As I said, I have flown from Sydney to Perth and guess what? It took 5 hours. I doubt NASA can hack my wristwatch. Even at 600 mph which no Airbus 330-200 can manage, especially not when you include time on the ground taxiing and also lower speeds at takeoff and landing, then we are talking 3000 miles instead of 2000. The flat earth map shows Australia as twice as wide as the USA. I have driven from NYC to California and it was about 2800 miles following a somewhat less than straight route. In order for the flat earth map and my 5 hour flight from Sydney to Perth to make sense, the airplane must have been going about 1200 mph. Is NASA covering up the fact that commercial aircraft are traveling at almost twice the speed of sound?

And how about the people who drive from Sydney to Perth? Can NASA hack their odometer?

Exactly what data would you trust? I started this discussion by inviting a flat earther to circumnavigate the earth in the Southern Hemisphere on regular scheduled flights and then try to explain how they made it around in less than half the time that a flat earth map would require. Would you trust your own wristwatch on such a trip?

The last 10 or so EVA flights from JFK to Taiwan were reported to take about 16 hours on that flight tracking website. How long did your flight take? Are they lying about that route also? You can see the recorded flight speeds on this graph for a recent trip from JFK to Taipei: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/EVA31/history/20170331/0525Z/KJFK/RCTP/tracklog
The reported cruising speed of a Boeing 777 is 562 mph and for most of the trip, it was below that speed, and often well below that speed which is probably due to headwinds for portions of the trip.

It is easy to say that you do not trust the flight data on that website, but then there is little point in discussing this unless you either provide other data from trustworthy source or are willing to make the flights yourself and honestly report on how long it takes you to go around the earth in the Southern Hemisphere.
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Nirmala on April 01, 2017, 08:41:01 PM
I found another website where someone did some similar calculations regarding flight times versus distances on a globe and a flat earth map: http://creation.com/a-direct-test-of-the-flat-earth-model-flight-times

Interestingly, it is a Christian website. Also, the author of the article states in the comments that he and several other people who work in his ministry have personally flown many of the routes he used and so can personally verify that the flight times are correct.

I also noticed that he did not include the Sydney to Santiago (Australia to South America) route. If he had the flat earth data would have been even more erroneous, as that is where the greatest distortion in distances would have been measured. He included several routes that are mostly north/south routes. There is little or no distortion of distances along lines of longitude in the flat earth map, so those routes would be accurately measured on both a globe and flat earth map.
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Ptolemy on April 01, 2017, 11:00:17 PM
I'm not saying anyone hacked anything. You are. Forget the maps, I do not use maps anyway. I'm not saying NASA is covering up anything, you are. I just said I don't trust the data you receive from Quantas.

Odometer on a car, swriously?. You can drive 300 miles to get somewhere that is only 250 miles away.

I've been out to sea on an Aircraft Carrier. Water as far as you can see 360 degrees for days. Over 2 years at sea. I've watched the night sky for endless hours.

Ask yourself this. Map and circumnavigation aside. Do you really believe we landed on the moon? Furthermore, do you believe we have an ISS in orbit? 10's of thousands of satelites??

I have no problems. Take your face off the map, get your head out of mathematics and formulas and just look around. Do some basic experiments, watch a few videos.

How old are you?
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Nirmala on April 01, 2017, 11:08:35 PM
Forget the maps, I do not use maps anyway. I'm not saying NASA is covering up anything, you are. I just said I don't trust the data you receive from Quantas.

Odometer on a car, swriously?. You can drive 300 miles to get somewhere that is only 250 miles away. I've been out to sea on an Aircraft Carrier, the Earth is flat.


Well this discussion was all based on the flat earth map, so if you have no use for maps, then I can see why you would disagree. And yes, you can drive 300 miles to get 250...which is why I quoted the actual driving distance from Sydney to Perth above which is greater than the flying distance....but still thousands less than what is shown on flat earth maps.

And once again, I will say that it should be relatively easy to create a correct flat earth map...but instead every FE map I have seen is crap. And every globe I have seen corresponds perfectly with the flight data. And what reason would Quantas have to fudge their own flight data when it would piss off their own customers to no end? I would never fly on an airline that was consistently off by hours in their expected flight times.

As for the rest, those are all other topics not addressed above, so I will leave them be.
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Ptolemy on April 02, 2017, 12:08:03 AM
The title of this thread has nothing to do with maps !!
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Nirmala on April 02, 2017, 12:17:06 AM
You got me there. It also has nothing to do with the ISS, moonshots or satellites. I was of course referring to the last 20 or so posts about flight times as a cheaper experiment than sending someone up in a balloon.
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Ptolemy on April 02, 2017, 12:29:33 AM
I thought you said you were not going to discuss those items??

Noone cares about Oz, except Dorothy.
Go wrestle a Tasmanian devil or something....
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Ptolemy on April 02, 2017, 09:51:22 AM
https://youtu.be/4_IvDVgg2Kg

Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Nirmala on April 06, 2017, 03:25:43 PM
Still no flat earther can produce a map that corresponds with the tens of thousands of flights documented on the flight tracking website every day: https://flightaware.com/  Gee, why am I not surprised?

Tom Bishop kept asking me for a database of distances and travel times between points on a round earth, and now that I have provided one, he no longer comments on this thread.

I think this whole website should be renamed the "Round Earth Society", since the flat earthers seem to just fade into the woodwork when there is evidence they can't contradict. Or they tell you to ignore Australia and wrestle with a Tasmanian devil, because who cares about Australia. Somehow, I never thought of that as a reason to believe in a flat earth.....because nobody cares about Australia?????

This forum seems to have more people who believe in a spherical earth than the opposite.
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Jura-Glenlivet on April 06, 2017, 03:34:38 PM

We do rule here.
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on April 16, 2017, 11:13:19 AM
Still no flat earther can produce a map that corresponds with the tens of thousands of flights documented on the flight tracking website every day
This statement is false.

Gee, why am I not surprised?
Because you're not here to have an honest discussion. You're here to tell everyone how right you think you are to make yourself feel better, regardless of merit.

This forum seems to have more people who believe in a spherical earth than the opposite.
Yes, trolls like you do enjoy flooding Flat Earth forums. We don't mind - we gladly talk to the honest ones and ignore the trolls once we've picked up on them (usually quite quickly)
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Nirmala on April 16, 2017, 02:01:13 PM
Still no flat earther can produce a map that corresponds with the tens of thousands of flights documented on the flight tracking website every day
This statement is false.

Then show me the map.
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Flatout on April 16, 2017, 02:03:20 PM
SexWarrior can you please produce a map that makes sense of the flight times and earth wide flight paths.  Please give a detailed explanation and well documented flight speeds to make it work.  You just claimed that one exists but cited no data reference.
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on April 16, 2017, 02:19:01 PM
Then show me the map.
It's in the FAQ. You just insist on reading it as if it were a RE map.
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Nirmala on April 16, 2017, 03:28:08 PM
Then show me the map.
It's in the FAQ. You just insist on reading it as if it were a RE map.

No, I see the flat earth map as being presented as a two dimensional representation of a two dimensional surface, which means that there should be no distortion in the scale of objects or distances on the map relative to those same objects and distances on the surface of the flat earth. Given that simple principle, the shape and size of Australia on the map should perfectly scale up to the shape and size of the actual continent. Since it obviously does not given the flight times between Sydney and Perth referenced earlier in this thread, then the map is not proportional in all of its distances to the actual surface of the earth. Hence the map is incorrect.

Note that it is the nature of this kind of map projection that distances north and south are correct, while east/west distances become more and more inaccurate the further away from the center point (the north pole in this case) that you are on the map. Hence, Australia is grossly distorted on the map in the east/west dimension, while continents further north show less distortion. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azimuthal_equidistant_projection
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on April 16, 2017, 04:15:46 PM
No, I see the flat earth map as being presented as a two dimensional representation of a two dimensional surface, which means that there should be no distortion in the scale of objects or distances on the map relative to those same objects and distances on the surface of the flat earth.
Yes, you assume a Cartesian geometry. I can't help you with that.

Given that simple principle
Given that simple and incorrect assumption, you reach a simple and incorrect conclusion. Until you sort your shit out, there's very little we can do to help.
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Flatout on April 16, 2017, 04:25:34 PM
Then show me the map.
It's in the FAQ. You just insist on reading it as if it were a RE map.
Who took the measurements for the map in the Wiki?
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Nirmala on April 16, 2017, 05:56:00 PM
Then what kind of geometry is the flat earth map based on? And you do know that it is a two-dimensional projection of a three dimensional object (the globe) using geographic coordinates (longitude and latitude)?
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Nirmala on April 17, 2017, 12:56:21 AM
Gee, why am I not surprised?
Because you're not here to have an honest discussion. You're here to tell everyone how right you think you are to make yourself feel better, regardless of merit.


The reason I am here is that I am learning a lot. It became pretty obvious early on that most of the time nobody wins these debates, but every now and then someone posts something in support of the flat earth that really stretches my own ability to counter the argument. Then I do some searching and researching until I can satisfy my own curiosity. For example, I learned a lot about perspective in some discussions where it was suggested that perspective is what causes the sun to drop below the horizon in the flat earth model, so I educated myself some about perspective and learned that that is not possible. See here: https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6084.msg114798#msg114798 and here: https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6084.msg114871#msg114871

Another explanation that is offered is refraction, but then I studied up on refraction including the fast paced videos here: http://byjus.com/physics/why-do-stars-twinkle/. I learned that when light strikes a different and denser medium, the light is bent towards the normal (defined as the perpendicular to the boundary between the two mediums). It is for that reason that in both a flat earth and a round earth model, the sun would always appear higher in the sky than its actual location (except of course when it was already in the fully vertical position). That makes it impossible for the sun to be hidden behind the horizon due to refraction in the flat earth model, and also explains why the sun appears above the horizon for a little while after it has actually set below the horizon in the round earth model.

If you have something that you think will stump me, please have at it. So again, what form of geometry are you using and how does it explain the flat earth? It is fine if you just post references to videos or other resources that you think do a good job of explaining your viewpoint.
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Nirmala on April 24, 2017, 01:49:22 AM
I found some more info related to flight times in the southern hemisphere on the following two threads. On both threads, there are posts by a Quantas pilot who flies the Sydney to Santiago route. And in the second thread, there are videos he took from the cockpit of the Antarctic sea ice, that he later matched up to satellite images of the same area he was flying over (sort of a two for one debunking of the flat earth and the idea that satellites don't exist).

https://www.metabunk.org/flat-earth-theory-debunked-by-short-flights-qf27-qf28-from-australia-to-south-america.t6483/

https://www.metabunk.org/a-flight-over-the-antarctic-sea-ice-from-chile-to-australia-qf28.t8235/

There are several  interesting threads over there, but in this thread, there is much discussion of whether most flat earthers are just trolling for a good argument:
https://www.metabunk.org/what-to-do-about-the-flat-earthers-debunk-or-ignore.t6707/
I am tending to come to the conclusion that at least some of the flat earthers on here are trolls. But for a good argument, I think Monty Python had a better idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdoGVgj1MtY
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: TomInAustin on May 17, 2017, 10:56:04 PM
Hi, everybody, I'm French and I am looking for a volunteer.
He needs to be a true believer, and if possible, has a youtube channel or a blog.
I want to start a Kickstarter campaign to gather money to send him into the stratosphere with a Mig29 or a ballon if we reach a higher goal.
Everything will be on my charge. I just need him for a couple days and for some interviews.
I want to make a documentary about that.
All the unspent money would be given to an association that promotes education and knowledge.
Please, let me know if you're interested.
Thank you.
Clem


You are over thinking this.   All you need to do is charter a Cessna Citation X that goes to 51,000 feet.  Book it for 2 hours.   It holds 8 people so you and 7 others could go.  Nice big windows to see the obvoius as well as video the results.  This could be done for under 10,000.


https://www.google.com/search?q=citation+x+charter+rates&oq=citaion+x+charter+r&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l3.7071j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Dither on May 18, 2017, 12:24:22 AM
Sounds like a one way trip to the cemetery if you go up in a ballon.
Why not just show us an honest picture of curvature, oh that's right, they don't exist.

   
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: Nirmala on May 18, 2017, 12:36:13 AM
Sounds like a one way trip to the cemetery if you go up in a ballon.
Why not just show us an honest picture of curvature, oh that's right, they don't exist.

Photographic evidence taken at about 200 meters elevation is in this post:
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=5471.msg116469#msg116469
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: İntikam on May 18, 2017, 07:11:36 AM
I'm interested but;

I haven't a youtube channel or blog. But my workings as "İntikam" in all around the most known flat earth forums. And I'm not a believer, I'm a "knower".

My prerequisite is the balloon or airplane should be gone to the nearest point of the dome as about 73 miles altitude, then I'll take a sample from the dome from some researches. I accept the risk of getting stuck in the dome and hanging there.
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: antoniusagus on May 18, 2017, 07:22:59 AM
flat earth is the true of science...
Title: Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
Post by: 3DGeek on June 05, 2017, 04:42:34 PM
If you're going to do a test like this - you have to have pre-agreed conditions for success.

For example - if you send an FE'er up in a balloon - show that the earth appears to be round - then it's no use them coming back afterwards and saying "They made me wear this helmet and goggles 'to protect my eyes' - and it distorted the image"....or...."Sure, it *LOOKED* round - but that was just atmospheric refraction/electromagnetic warping...whatever".

That would be a very bad result indeed - money flushed down the toilet for zero purpose.

For this to be worth paying money for - it has to be an experiment - with a conclusion that both sides can agree on.

"We the FE and RE community agree that if we do this - and THAT happens, then the world must be flat - and if we do it but THIS happens - then the world must be round."


...this needs to be a DETAILED set of requirements and analyses...signed in blood by both groups of experimenters.

So if helmets and googles have to be worn - or if you are inside the curved window of a Russian MiG 15...then this has to be rather carefully thought though - because any suggestion of distortion and all bets are off (either way, actually).

Before you go off getting recruits and starting crowd-funding - you absolutely have to get solid agreement on what the experiment is - and what the results will mean.

Personally, I think there are MUCH cheaper ways.

Here is a way that would cost NOTHING but a few people's time:

1) Have a paired group of RE'ers and FE'ers who live in widely separated locations around the world get together on a Skype/Google/whatever video chat - and at some pre-arranged time.

2) At an agreed time, everyone goes outside and looks up at the sky and carefully notes what they see...I'm thinking the moon and the stars close to it would be a good test.

3) Each pair of one RE and one FE person will agree on what they are seeing at their location and make careful notes of specific features and come back to Skype to report back so everyone can be assured that the observations were pretty much simultaneous - and at what latitude/longitude they were measured.

4) We do this at several different times of day/night and at as many locations in the world as we can - then we take the results and apply the "Zetetic method" to the results to DEDUCE the shape of the Earth from it.

("The zetetic method differs from the usual scientific method in that in using it, one bases conclusions on experimentation and observation rather than on an initial theory that is to be proved or disproved. A scientist following the zetetic method formulates the question then immediately sets to work making observations and performing experiments to answer that question, rather than speculating on what the answer might be before testing it out.")

Since we'll be using zetetics - the question is "What shape is the Earth?" - and both RE'ers and FE'ers have to go without prior assumptions about the shape of the earth...both sides need open minds...who knows - maybe the Earth is a donut?  Maybe the results are ambiguous.

Due to weather conditions and other issues - this might take a while to get perfectly correct simultaneous observations - but the more pairs of RE and FE people who could join in - the better the results will be.

There are other kinds of experiments we could choose - but things that we can all observe and agree upon with naked eye observations at low-low cost.