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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #260 on: July 16, 2017, 12:28:12 AM »
In order for an airplane to descend into the vanishing point it must increase its distance to you many times fold. That cannot happen with the sun in the Round Earth model. The sun is 92 million miles away at all times. In order to cause it to "descend" with perspective it must also increase its distance to you by many times fold.

This is why perspective effects are impossible in the Round Earth model. The sun is not changing its distance by any significant amount to cause them.

but it doesn't descend because of perspective.  perspective has nothing to do with re sunsets.  isn't that the fe model? 

i feel like i must not be getting what you're asking.  in re cosmology, the sun is fixed, and the earth is rotating.  the sun "sets" because of that rotation.

You brought up the 2 point perspective of the corners of your ceiling, such as when standing in the middle of a long hallway, like it meant something in relation to what is happening to the celestial bodies for the celestial sphere effect.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 12:30:57 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #261 on: July 16, 2017, 12:31:37 AM »
In order for an airplane to descend into the vanishing point it must increase its distance to you many times fold. That cannot happen with the sun in the Round Earth model. The sun is 92 million miles away at all times. In order to cause it to "descend" with perspective it must also increase its distance to you by many times fold.

This is why perspective effects are impossible in the Round Earth model. The sun is not changing its distance by any significant amount to cause them.

but it doesn't descend because of perspective.  perspective has nothing to do with re sunsets.  isn't that the fe model? 

i feel like i must not be getting what you're asking.  in re cosmology, the sun is fixed, and the earth is rotating.  the sun "sets" because of that rotation.

You brought up the 2 point perspective of the corners of your ceiling like it meant something in relation to what is happening to the celestial bodies for the celestial sphere effect.

i brought up the ceiling wall thing as a simple demonstration that straight lines do not always appear straight to us.

i dunno what sunsets have to do with anything.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #262 on: July 16, 2017, 12:37:21 AM »
In order for an airplane to descend into the vanishing point it must increase its distance to you many times fold. That cannot happen with the sun in the Round Earth model. The sun is 92 million miles away at all times. In order to cause it to "descend" with perspective it must also increase its distance to you by many times fold.

This is why perspective effects are impossible in the Round Earth model. The sun is not changing its distance by any significant amount to cause them.

but it doesn't descend because of perspective.  perspective has nothing to do with re sunsets.  isn't that the fe model? 

i feel like i must not be getting what you're asking.  in re cosmology, the sun is fixed, and the earth is rotating.  the sun "sets" because of that rotation.

You brought up the 2 point perspective of the corners of your ceiling like it meant something in relation to what is happening to the celestial bodies for the celestial sphere effect.

i brought up the ceiling wall thing as a simple demonstration that straight lines do not always appear straight to us.

i dunno what sunsets have to do with anything.

I've asked for an example of where straight lines appear to make a curve like an arc, and for an explanation for the supposed celestial sphere effect. Fail on two counts.

Offline model 29

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #263 on: July 16, 2017, 12:52:51 AM »
If you are unable to show us
I am able to.  What would be acceptable for you if I did post pictures?  A single wide angle shot of a straight overhead line with the camera centered on the horizon?  Perhaps a series of pictures put together from left to right taken with the camera level for each shot?

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, or even give a coherent explanation for why straight lines would appear as curved in euclidean space,
That's been given multiple times over the last 13 pages.

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then I am going to have to ask you to stop posting and wasting everyone's time.
Can you answer the following question with a yes or no answer, or not?  If you can't answer, perhaps you could simply indicate as such, and stop wasting everyone's time.

Using the straight line that is the joining of the wall and ceiling, are you stating that while looking away from center to either the left or right, that line does not 'appear' to descend as the distance increases?

 

Offline model 29

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #264 on: July 16, 2017, 12:55:57 AM »
How could the sun rise and set to perspective as it travels across the sky ........
That is the FE model you're describing, and we often ask the same question.

Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #265 on: July 16, 2017, 12:58:24 AM »
I've asked for an example of where straight lines appear to make a curve like an arc, and for an explanation for the supposed celestial sphere effect. Fail on two counts.

the ceiling example is exactly on point.

http://www.scottmcdaniel.net/drawing/perspective/5_point.html







but instead of arguing over drawings and theories, why not do an empirical experiment and test to see if your premise is even true to begin with?  i recommend using a taut string to make a straight line, then setting this straight line perpendicular to the moon's phase.  follow the line and see where it points!  be sure to wear eye protection because spoiler alert it points at the sun.

hey btw tell me more about how astronomers don't do experiments.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 01:00:03 AM by garygreen »
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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #266 on: July 16, 2017, 07:01:28 AM »
Bishop, you aren't serious about that, right? Ever heard of a spherical sky map? The straight lines just don't work.

Woof, you guys need to study a bit of math really. You draw conclusions like a 1-grade boy. Do you have B.Sc degree in anything technical?

Fictitious premise. The sky is not a sphere which things rest against.
I don't believe you don't understand it.

The sky IS A SPHERE. You have to apply a projection onto a sphere (inner face) when you want to do any sky geometry. It's quite funny you guys believe in a dome, but when it really comes to a dome-shaped sky map you unable to understand it. I see there are a plenty of images people here gave you to illustrate it.

Have you ever saw a sky map? I work with sky maps a lot as I'm an astronomer. Here is how it looks like:

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Offline ErnestV1

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #267 on: July 16, 2017, 10:44:46 AM »
Isn't one of FE tenets that the heavens are a dome?

Nope. I welcome you to try and find something about a dome in Earth Not a Globe or any of the other Flat Earth literature sources.

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No matter, for all of us, FE or Spherical, the sky appears to be a semi-sphere.

The sky is not a sphere. How would things curve against it if it were not a literal sphere? Straight lines would be straight, unless they were resting against something curved.

Now that I comprehend that there are different beliefs and that you do not believe in a dome, I will not use that again with you, but I have seen FE believers say it is so, and have seen one analogy of a bowl with reflections to describe how both the north and south pole rotations can 'work'... but it made thing no clearer to me.  That said, please allow me to try a different tack to the same attempt at communication. Have you ever gone to a planetarium? If so, you have seen that the sky is represented as a dome. That does not mean that we believe that the stars are on the same plane, but it is a great way to visually and accurately represent what is happening in the heavens.

So the sky is not a dome, but even as perspective on a two-dimensional piece of paper can accurately represent how our eyes see the world, so does a planetarium's dome accurately represent how our eyes see the stars and their motion as they appear to traverse the heavens.

Perspective of straight lines on a dome will look straight at one spot in the domed room but curved at another spot in the room. This, as I have previously stated, is due to perspective. Yet even to the person who sees the line as straight, the line drawn on the dome is in fact a curve. Only a string from one point on the dome to another point on the dome will prove what is the true straight vector from point a to point b. Thus, if point a is a radiant source such as the sun, perspective will obfuscate the true phase angle of a large body (point b, or the moon) reflecting the radiant energy from point a (our sun).

Video or pictures taken will reflect that poor perspective is the camera is not held to the proper orientation, or 2 dimensional plane of the camera's horizon. For instance, if the camera is held at a 45 degree angle to the earth's horizon, the camera reflects the horizon as sloping the opposite direction than the camera is being held. Also, if a close object such as wall-ceiling interface with straight lines is above or below the camera horizon, even though the camera is oriented to the straight, horizontal line, there will be an apparent curve at the foreground to that horizontal line as these lines move away to the right and left toward the convergence point of perspective. A similar horizontal line that is centered on the camera's horizontal plane with have no slope to the right and left. Some have called this lens distortion when what it truly shows is perspective. Lens distortion will simply magnify this effect based upon whether it is a wide angle, or has some magnification.

Therefore, straight lines will appear curved whether on the ground or in the sky based upon our vision being oriented to a different plane of reference than the one which is being observed. In order to correct for perspective in a camera or with regard to our own vision. we must put our camera's horizon which starts at center point on the left and is a straight line to center point on the right side of the field of view. If the camera is oriented with the moon at center point on the left or right with the phase angle exactly 90 degrees to the horizon of the camera, then when we find the sun at the opposite side of the field of view it will also be centered between the top and bottom of the camera viewfinder. Now by keeping the sun and moon both on the right and left, but moving the camera up or down in relation to this plane described by the sun and moon, you will see the phase angle of the moon begin to shift due to perspective as the two heavenly bodies begin to rise above or below the center-line of the camera's viewfinder as the plane that the sun and moon are on rises above or falls below the observed plane, even as the line of the wall/ceiling interface 'curves' when the field of view is below the plane of the ceiling.

I love how the sun shines on the bottom of the clouds and sunrise and sunset!

We may disagree on many things, but I will always try to respect everyone and thereby reflect the love of Christ.

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #268 on: July 17, 2017, 03:07:35 PM »
I came across a youtube video which asks some interesting questions about the angles of the sun and moon.



That's hilarious - the guy kinda guesses the angle of the moon's illumination - then waves his finger across the sky in very roughly the right direction - and then winds up reasonably close to where the sun actually is!

Besides - in FET the sun (because you claim it casts a CONE of light, downwards, onto the Earth) and is at the same altitude as the moon, (both 3000 miles above the Earth) can't be illuminating the moon at all...so god knows how you arrive at moon phases...the Wiki says the sun shines on it - but the Wiki also says that sunlight is confined to a beam shining downwards - how the heck it illuminates something so far off to the side.




Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Offline Smokified

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #269 on: July 18, 2017, 12:44:18 AM »
That doesn't make any sense. Why wouldn't the angles line up? They would line up in a small scale model of the sun and moon and observer, so why not a larger scale model with the sun 93 million miles away?
Fair enough, then prove that they would line up in a small scale model then. And remember that considering a standard issue office globus, the distance to the moon object is about 10 meters.

Nobody needs to "defend" the heliocentric model any further than the reply you actually got already. You disregard the reply because it doesn't conform to your wishful thinking. If you want to be taken serious, Tom, you need to start presenting some actual evidence. Just like us "round earthers", even the flat earth movement must be sick and tired of you making them look like blatant idiots by now.

The reply I got merely said that they shouldn't expect to be lined up because the sun is 93 million miles away. ??? ???

We are going to need a better explanation than that.

And while you're at it, Tom, please respond to the 3 videos I linked you in the Shaq thread. I know you saw them, and I know you can't refute them. If you can't, just say it. Don't go silent.

You want me to go off-topic in this thread by talking about an off-topic post you made in another thread? I don't think so. Your videos were ignored in the Shaq thread for a reason. Please stay on topic.

Just as you like to refer people to your silly flat earth bible, I will refer you to the millions of different publications that are easy to locate and explain all of those things for you.