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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« on: December 19, 2015, 12:02:28 AM »
Now that a few people have seen this,  I thought we should have a place to talk about it without worrying about spoiling it for others.

Overall, I thought it was typical JJ Abrahms - thoroughly enjoyable if you don't spend too long thinking about it. It was also typical that to him 'homage' apparently means 'rip off'. If you're feeling charitable then he took the spirit of the original and updated it for a new audience; if not, he tried to re make ep4. Still, it was a solid piece of filmmaking which was really fun to watch.

The biggest problem I had was that I didn't understand the stakes because the sides weren't explained properly. At first I thought that The First Order had simply picked up the Empire's reins, then a Republic is mentioned which is apparently different from both the Resistance and GO, whilst secretly supporting the former's guerilla war. So, is the Galaxy now like Korea with the Republic and FO in control of different parts at an uneasy peace?

If so, surely the FO's Death Star ripoff would re-ignite a shooting war?  Surely a galaxy-spanning Republic wouldn't have their entire fleet sat in one star system? Why didn't they throw their support fully behind the Resistance? I feel that these were plot holes which would have been easily fixed with a few lines of dialogue and maybe a map of the state of the Galaxy somewhere near the beginning.

I had other issues, if course. How did Rei go from not knowing how to fly the Falcon to threading it through a downed star destroyer in seconds? How did Finn suddenly know how to fight with a light-sabre? What was the point of Capt Phasma?



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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2015, 09:05:27 PM »
Oh yeah, plot holes like nobody's business.


"Hi, I'm Rey.  I just discovered the force an hour ago and now I'm mind controlling. Lol."
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Offline markjo

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2015, 12:21:43 AM »
Would anyone be shocked if Rey turns out to be Luke's daughter?
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Saddam Hussein

Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2015, 12:32:10 AM »
Yet another Death Star was just ridiculous.

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Offline Fortuna

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2015, 04:26:58 AM »
Yet another Death Star was just ridiculous.

It was a Death Star shotgun.

And yeah, The Force Awakens was bad. I don't know why every critic is praising it. It's probably worse than the prequels. It's just one giant fan service, plot hole ridden mess. The visuals were good though.

Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2015, 08:03:48 AM »
I had other issues, if course. How did Rei go from not knowing how to fly the Falcon to threading it through a downed star destroyer in seconds? How did Finn suddenly know how to fight with a light-sabre? What was the point of Capt Phasma?

How did Luke destroy the death star despite never having flown an X-Wing? Finn never knew how to fight with a lightsaber, that's why he got smashed in both cases. Phasma was the Boba Fett of this movie; a cool looking character that only serves as a minor plot device and will receive more characterisation in sequels.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2015, 08:48:37 AM »
Yet another Death Star was just ridiculous.

At least they learned from the last one and covered the opening.

By issues with it is

1) It would take a shit load of time to build.  Using an exiting planet was smart but still, a very long time and manpower and resources.  The Empire took years to build the first death star and they had nearly infinite resources.  And how did the alliance/republic not know this was happening?

2) I'm ok with the whole "hyperspace laser" Fine, whatever.  But using a star to power it is just impractical.  They only had two shots.
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Offline rooster

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2015, 01:59:44 PM »
I enjoyed it.
Also, it's Rey*

How did Rei go from not knowing how to fly the Falcon to threading it through a downed star destroyer in seconds?
Just like what Poe Dameron said, "I can fly anything". It's likely similar to driving a car. Controls will be in different locations and the vehicle will feel different, but it's probably the same general idea and not too hard to figure out. It was already established that she was a pilot.

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How did Finn suddenly know how to fight with a light-sabre?
Anyone can use a lightsaber. You just turn it on and swing it about. It's not like he was super badass with it.

"Hi, I'm Rey.  I just discovered the force an hour ago and now I'm mind controlling. Lol."
Remember how she talked that little alien out of taking a fully functional and expensive droid? She's probably been using the force her entire life without knowing what she was doing. And force persuasion is pretty effective on people who aren't at all force sensitive. If she really is very strong like Kylo said, then it's not difficult to imagine that using just a little bit of effort can get her results. The force is something people need to be trained in to control the power, but if you have a ton of innate ability then you're going to be pretty great already.

Thork

Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2015, 02:30:50 PM »
Han Solo dies like a bitch. Didn't try to take his son with him, didn't fight back, didn't scream "damn youuuuuuuu!" as he fell. He just got impaled and wobbled off the walkway.

Also, why does no one ever install a fucking handrail on those things? How hard is that? There must be all kinds of health and safety going on. There aren't any trash cans, but there is no litter, every light bulb works, everything is clean and shiny, there's an alarm or alert for every type of malfunction ... and yet a super important walkway has no handrail on it with a several hundred foot drop? I know this is science fiction, but handrails are not going to become obsolete in the future! >o<

Also, Chewbacca doesn't seem particularly bothered. He sits looking sad for 10 seconds, hops back in the Millennium Falcon with Rae (how she inherited his ship and pet wookie instead of Leia I don't know) and then zooms off to some remote planet to find Luke. Why wasn't she sent alone in an x-wing? How does she scoop one of the best ships in the galaxy and why does Chewy need to go with her? He's gonna be seriously bored watching her try to move rocks with her mind for hours on end, day after day.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 02:32:24 PM by Dr David Thork »

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Offline rooster

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2015, 02:52:03 PM »
Han Solo dies like a bitch. Didn't try to take his son with him, didn't fight back, didn't scream "damn youuuuuuuu!" as he fell. He just got impaled and wobbled off the walkway.
Yeah but it's his son and Han isn't the vindictive bitch type.

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Also, why does no one ever install a fucking handrail on those things? How hard is that? There must be all kinds of health and safety going on. There aren't any trash cans, but there is no litter, every light bulb works, everything is clean and shiny, there's an alarm or alert for every type of malfunction ... and yet a super important walkway has no handrail on it with a several hundred foot drop? I know this is science fiction, but handrails are not going to become obsolete in the future! >o<
Yeah, the setting was dumb.

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Also, Chewbacca doesn't seem particularly bothered. He sits looking sad for 10 seconds, hops back in the Millennium Falcon with Rae (how she inherited his ship and pet wookie instead of Leia I don't know) and then zooms off to some remote planet to find Luke. Why wasn't she sent alone in an x-wing? How does she scoop one of the best ships in the galaxy and why does Chewy need to go with her? He's gonna be seriously bored watching her try to move rocks with her mind for hours on end, day after day.
He seemed much more somber. Did you need to see Wookie tears to really feel his pain? Also, Rey was already offered a job on the Falcon so better with her (and the copilot, Chewy) than with Leia who is a general and doesn't need it.

Thork

Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2015, 03:44:41 PM »
I would have liked a few wooky tears, yes.



Whoa, wait. So Chewy works as co-pilot for 30 years, and the moment a promotion opportunity occurs, a woman they have met just 3 days ago who has limited experience gets to keep the ship and be his boss? Chewy is 7 feet tall. He should have stuffed that girl with the big teeth into a garbage pod and ejected her less than 2 mins after they were airborne.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 03:47:01 PM by Dr David Thork »

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2015, 03:54:16 PM »
I would have liked a few wooky tears, yes.



Whoa, wait. So Chewy works as co-pilot for 30 years, and the moment a promotion opportunity occurs, a woman they have met just 3 days ago who has limited experience gets to keep the ship and be his boss? Chewy is 7 feet tall. He should have stuffed that girl with the big teeth into a garbage pod and ejected her less than 2 mins after they were airborne.
1. You assume he isn't happy Han is dead.  Maybe it's more like "Life Debt fulfilled.  Thank Wookie God that's over."
2. You also assume he wants the captain job.  Maybe he doesn't want it?  Maybe he sucks at it?  Maybe he doesn't care?

Though I thought getting a good shot off at Kylo was moving enough, then he blew the explosives while he was inside.  Like a "Fuck you, now die."
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Offline junker

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Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2015, 04:15:31 PM »
Saw it last night. It was okay for me. The character development felt lacking and I didn't really get any sort of emotional attachment. Some more back story behind Han and Kylo Ren would have been nice. The scene he kills his father felt like it should've been more emotional, but was lacking. I appreciated some of the nostalgia, but I think it may have been a bit overdone. Hopefully in the sequels, they can move on from the past and develop a new storyline. Maybe one that doesn't involve a Death Star or Star Killer or Death Galaxy Sun Killer.

I also share Thork's disdain for a lack of guard rails. But I've felt that way in all of them.

And Kylo Ren must be the worst Dark Side villain with a light saber. He should've decapitated Finn in a few seconds. He's a fucking janitor turned Stormtrooper.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2015, 04:20:09 PM »
Saw it last night. It was okay for me. The character development felt lacking and I didn't really get any sort of emotional attachment. Some more back story behind Han and Kylo Ren would have been nice. The scene he kills his father felt like it should've been more emotional, but was lacking. I appreciated some of the nostalgia, but I think it may have been a bit overdone. Hopefully in the sequels, they can move on from the past and develop a new storyline. Maybe one that doesn't involve a Death Star or Star Killer or Death Galaxy Sun Killer.

I also share Thork's disdain for a lack of guard rails. But I've felt that way in all of them.

And Kylo Ren must be the worst Dark Side villain with a light saber. He should've decapitated Finn in a few seconds. He's a fucking janitor turned Stormtrooper.
I think he's got raw force power but very little actual training.  He can't even control his anger.  He felt like a whiny kid (and looked like a whiny kid) though much better than Anakin.
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Offline rooster

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2015, 04:24:04 PM »
And Kylo Ren must be the worst Dark Side villain with a light saber. He should've decapitated Finn in a few seconds. He's a fucking janitor turned Stormtrooper.
Yeah, Carter and I were talking about this last night.

He's clearly pretty good with force manipulation, but he's just not a skilled fighter. Which I honestly think makes sense. It seems easier to will things to happen, but to be a good fighter would also require athletic abilities. It's kinda silly to think that just because someone can manipulate energy it should mean they can manipulate how they move themselves, that's like some Matrix shit. Yoda doing all those flips when fighting with a saber was stupid af.

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Offline junker

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2015, 04:30:23 PM »
There really needs to be some more development behind that, if that's the angle that is taken with his character. I get he's not a Sith, and is "force-sensitive" but he still had to have had some training. I assume we will learn more about that during the next 19 sequels.

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Offline rooster

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2015, 04:43:17 PM »
There really needs to be some more development behind that, if that's the angle that is taken with his character. I get he's not a Sith, and is "force-sensitive" but he still had to have had some training. I assume we will learn more about that during the next 19 sequels.
There was development.

He was training under Luke when he decided to rebel. It was him that made Luke give up on training Jedi. And he is a Sith, because technically, a Sith is just someone who uses the dark side of the Force and strives to be the enemy of the Jedi and conquer the galaxy. He's just not a Sith Lord and was called back to finish his training at the end of the movie.

Also, anger is seen as a positive for the Sith. So really he doesn't need to control it but harness it, and the fact that he is so angry will likely help him to be more powerful.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 04:45:01 PM by rooster »

Thork

Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2015, 04:46:13 PM »
There really needs to be some more development behind that, if that's the angle that is taken with his character. I get he's not a Sith, and is "force-sensitive" but he still had to have had some training. I assume we will learn more about that during the next 19 sequels.
Yeah, he's force sensitive to be able to feel Han Solo and say "Solo" the instant Han lands on the planet, but not enough when he's actually looking for him when he is 20 feet away he actually turns and heads off in the wrong bloody direction.

Also I'm not done with Rey, who has never left her home planet since she was a child and can speak Wookie. Nobody can speak Wookie -- it's a running joke in the Star Wars universe. But Rey being able to speak Wookie surprises neither her, Han Solo, nor Chewbacca himself.

« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 04:48:24 PM by Dr David Thork »

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Offline junker

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2015, 04:59:25 PM »
There really needs to be some more development behind that, if that's the angle that is taken with his character. I get he's not a Sith, and is "force-sensitive" but he still had to have had some training. I assume we will learn more about that during the next 19 sequels.
There was development.

He was training under Luke when he decided to rebel. It was him that made Luke give up on training Jedi. And he is a Sith, because technically, a Sith is just someone who uses the dark side of the Force and strives to be the enemy of the Jedi and conquer the galaxy. He's just not a Sith Lord and was called back to finish his training at the end of the movie.

Also, anger is seen as a positive for the Sith. So really he doesn't need to control it but harness it, and the fact that he is so angry will likely help him to be more powerful.

If he spent time with Luke, he should have developed better skills with the lightsaber. There is no way that Finn would be able to have survived that battle. Maybe Rey does with her previous weapons training and newfound abilities, but it seemed like a pretty big jump to make. The backstory that I have read on Kylo Ren takes care to specifically not imply that he is a Sith, and that Snoke even leverages how he walks the line between light and dark. That is outside of the context of the movie so far, but I presume that is how it will develop. Even Snoke is described as a "force-user" and not a Sith.

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Offline rooster

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Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2015, 05:05:08 PM »
If he spent time with Luke, he should have developed better skills with the lightsaber.
They said throughout the movie that he trained with Luke. It definitely happened. Not sure how long he trained with him though.

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The backstory that I have read on Kylo Ren takes care to specifically not imply that he is a Sith, and that Snoke even leverages how he walks the line between light and dark. That is outside of the context of the movie so far, but I presume that is how it will develop. Even Snoke is described as a "force-user" and not a Sith.
Well, Sith is an order but if there's not really an established order yet then I guess they could toe that line. But a Sith is just a Force user that harnesses anger and hatred and harms others. Snoke was worried about Kylo because he thought he still had the potential to go home with his parents, but that was decided once and for all when he killed Han.