Death of Mike Hughes
« on: February 23, 2020, 12:12:13 PM »
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/mike-hughes-death-rocket-launch-crash-mad-daredevil-flat-earth-video-a9353091.html

I find it genuinely baffling that nobody from the FET community didn't strongly counsel and/or advise Mike Hughes to NOT fly a home made rocket to his death.

I get that ultimately, it was his decision, I get that had he gained sufficient altitude, he would have disproved his own beliefs but seriously, did nobody within the FET community advise against him risking his life in such a foolhardy and ultimately counter-productive (for FET) scheme.

Despite the disagreements between heliocentrists and deluded FET fantasists, the death of someone in the vain pursuit of exposing their own indoctrinated nonsense should remain forever on the conscience of those who urged him on. Many heliocentric astronauts and cosmonauts have died in the pursuit of REAL science - on the ground, during launch, descent from orbit etc. These deaths were not a joke. They were really people who were trying to better mankind's understanding of all manner of problems. Way beyond some nonsense FET. Likewise Mike Hughes' tragic death. The tragic difference here is that he was duped into a ridiculous and unnecessary proof of something that is already beyond requiring any further evidence.

Effectively, he was duped by FET (theory and theorists) into recklessly risking his life. A risk that was too high.

For shame on you all.

RIP Mike Hughes
« Last Edit: February 23, 2020, 12:22:05 PM by panicp »
I'm here for a serious discussion to challenge the flat earth myth.
As an evidence-based scientist, many might disagree with me.

That does NOT mean I accept or tolerate abuse, trolling, abruptly ending a conversation because I ask a question you cannot answer and especially the use of pseudo-science, or other non-evidence based data or untestable theories (without at least offering a proposed method of experiment). Clear enough?

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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: Death of Mike Hughes
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2020, 12:24:46 PM »
Ohhhhhh. Well I'm regretting my last statement on the matter.  :-[

Quote from: https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=7649.msg133956#msg133956
No such thing as bad publicity, mate. Its more Twitter followers, more forum activity, more Facebook likes, more power. I couldn't give a monkeys if this guy is boiled alive in that thing. He painted 'flat earth' on the side of it, and that's headlines.

But I do have a couple of things to note.

1) It looks like someone cut the strings to the parachute. This doesn't look like an accident at all.
2) What kind of a TV company rocks up to film a man killing himself? Don't they perform health and safety checks?

Rest In Pieces, Mad Mike. He died doing what he loved.  :'(
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Death of Mike Hughes
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2020, 01:43:25 PM »
1) It looks like someone cut the strings to the parachute. This doesn't look like an accident at all.

Conspiracy theories abound ...

2) What kind of a TV company rocks up to film a man killing himself? Don't they perform health and safety checks?

The kind that covers public events every day of the week. One day the film crew is covering a marathon, the next a protest outside a council building, the next Mike Hughes. Why would they be responsible for H&S in this circumstance?
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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: Death of Mike Hughes
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2020, 01:52:54 PM »
The kind that covers public events every day of the week. One day the film crew is covering a marathon, the next a protest outside a council building, the next Mike Hughes. Why would they be responsible for H&S in this circumstance?
TV shows have a duty of care to the people who are on them. For example in the UK there was a very famous TV show where they got a guy to do a reverse bungee https://www.entertainmentdaily.co.uk/news/noel-edmonds-quit-tv-show-following-tragic-death-in-stunt/

It looked like this.



The article clearly says
Quote from: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/mike-hughes-death-rocket-launch-crash-mad-daredevil-flat-earth-video-a9353091.html
“Mad” Mike Hughes, who hoped to prove the Earth was flat by going into space, died on Saturday near Barstow, California, after attempting to launch his steam-powered rocket for a new television series called Homemade Astronauts on the US Science Channel.
IE they were makign the show with him. Not just observing. They have a duty of care.
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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: Death of Mike Hughes
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2020, 01:57:53 PM »
meh... I would give him and the media a break. If he didn't talk about FE theory, he would have been just another daredevil with a rocket like Evel Knievel. Johnny Knoxville was almost killed in a rocket stunt during one of the Jackass movies. If he had died, it would have been for the cause of low brow entertainment. This guy really believed in a cause.

Anyone could have told him that his rocket designs were stupid and dangerous (I'm sure many did) but I don't think he would have stopped. If I was there I would have told him it was dangerous but if he insisted on doing it anyway, I would have definitely been in the front row, recording with my cell phone.
Round Earther patiently looking for a better deal...

If the world is flat, it means that I have been deceived by a global, multi-generational conspiracy spending trillions of dollars over hundreds of years.
If the world is round, it means that you’re just an idiot who believes stupid crap on the internet.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Death of Mike Hughes
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2020, 02:00:10 PM »
Hughes had already done one launch in 2018.

If the TV co had not been involved, he was still going to do the second, and the third, if he had survived. I would suggest it was his project, not the TV company's.

« Last Edit: February 23, 2020, 02:02:02 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Death of Mike Hughes
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2020, 04:27:21 PM »
I'm going to ignore OP's inability to write a forum post with any substance, his inability to contain his "erth rund!" shitposting, or to even find the right board for his thread. The subject is important enough to make an exception, and the serious slanderous allegations within the OP deserve some exploration.

I find it genuinely baffling that nobody from the FET community didn't strongly counsel and/or advise Mike Hughes to NOT fly a home made rocket to his death.
So, what exactly does the FE community have to do with this? Mad Mike had experimented with home-made rocketry long before he even heard of the Flat Earth Theory, and he was unlikely to stop even if he hadn't developed an interest in FET. He repeatedly explained that his passion for rocketry was not directly linked to FE, even if he saw a connection between his two interests and was looking forward to combining the two.

What happened to RE'ers' self-proclaimed love for facts? Did you just discard them all to express your unsubstantiated feelings, or did you not think to look into the man's history before launching this tirade? Or, perhaps, as always, it's a complete sham? For shame, indeed.

For what it's worth - when I was in touch with Mike, we did talk about safety. He knew the risks, and wasn't looking to be swayed away from what he loved.

Please reconsider the ethical implications of your hot take. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

As a personal hint: this is one of those rare occasions where you should probably apologise.

[300 edits later, I think I caught all the spelling errors, missing words, and sentences that didn't really sound like English. Posting while upset doesn't work very well for me.]
« Last Edit: February 23, 2020, 04:49:35 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Death of Mike Hughes
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2020, 05:12:13 PM »
Thork is right. Mike was being paid by company to produce a television show on "homemade astronauts", which was profiting from the event. Under OSH law it is an employer's responsibility to perform health and safety checks, regardless of if Mike was going to do it anyway.

https://www.osha.gov/as/opa/worker/employer-responsibility.html

Quote
Employer Responsibilities

Under the OSH law, employers have a responsibility to provide a safe workplace. This is a short summary of key employer responsibilities:

Provide a workplace free from serious recognized hazards and comply with standards, rules and regulations issued under the OSH Act.

Examine workplace conditions to make sure they conform to applicable OSHA standards.

Make sure employees have and use safe tools and equipment and properly maintain this equipment.

Use color codes, posters, labels or signs to warn employees of potential hazards.

Establish or update operating procedures and communicate them so that employees follow safety and health requirements.

Employers must provide safety training in a language and vocabulary workers can understand.

Employers with hazardous chemicals in the workplace must develop and implement a written hazard communication program and train employees on the hazards they are exposed to and proper precautions (and a copy of safety data sheets must be readily available). See the OSHA page on Hazard Communication.

Provide medical examinations and training when required by OSHA standards.

OSHA, in fact, has sections on guidance and standards for technologies related to rockets and missiles, which they work with government agencies on.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2020, 06:05:58 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: Death of Mike Hughes
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2020, 09:21:20 PM »
I hope they do something cool with his remains, like turn his ashes into a firework or something.  :-\
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Death of Mike Hughes
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2020, 11:58:21 PM »
Thork is right. Mike was being paid by company to produce a television show on "homemade astronauts", which was profiting from the event. Under OSH law it is an employer's responsibility to perform health and safety checks, regardless of if Mike was going to do it anyway.

You need to show he was in an employer/employee relationship, though. Without access to the contracts between them, I seriously doubt you can do this.
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Offline ChrisTP

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Re: Death of Mike Hughes
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2020, 01:44:57 AM »
RIP Mike Hughes. It was tragic and regardless of his belief of the earth's shape I get that he most likely loved doing this kind of stuff, knew the risks and was happy enough to take them anyway. To that end I do hope he died happy and without regret. I doubt anyone could have convinced him not to do the stunts.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Re: Death of Mike Hughes
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2020, 03:30:30 AM »
Maybe he really didn’t believe the earth was flat but he just wanted an excuse to launch himself.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Death of Mike Hughes
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2020, 07:36:01 AM »
Thork is right. Mike was being paid by company to produce a television show on "homemade astronauts", which was profiting from the event. Under OSH law it is an employer's responsibility to perform health and safety checks, regardless of if Mike was going to do it anyway.

You need to show he was in an employer/employee relationship, though. Without access to the contracts between them, I seriously doubt you can do this.

You can't claim that you are exempt from OSHA by recatgorizing relationships. That is not a legitimate response. You need to ensure safety in your projects and operations, and Discovery, Inc. was definitely involved.

Do you think that Discovery, Inc. can just pay people to walk on the lip of a volcano without proper safety precautions by calling them something else? No. If they could do that, everyone would do that, in many dangerous fields. They don't let employers and organizations get away with that. Lets see evidence for your claim that they could bypass federal laws for human safety willy nilly. Because that is an absurd argument.

Lets see details on the one simple trick employers can do to not be responsible for human safety in dangerous situations. Show us.

Re: Death of Mike Hughes
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2020, 09:47:49 AM »
An incredibly brave man who died pursuing his dreams. But hopefully it is learned that experimenters will think to their own safety first.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Death of Mike Hughes
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2020, 10:18:59 AM »
Lets see evidence for your claim that they could bypass federal laws for human safety willy nilly.

Let's see your evidence that he and they were in an employee/employer relationship as defined by OSHA for the legislation. You claimed first, I rebutted.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Death of Mike Hughes
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2020, 10:36:39 PM »
You want me to prove you wrong that employers can play tricks so that they can avoid federal safety laws and are not responsible for the health and safety of those they pay?

Funny, but no. They are responsible. It's the law. I already gave you a source. The evidence is already there on their responsibilities. My claim is actually established. Employers are responsible for health and safety precautions. It is you who would need to show your claim that employers have a trick to where they can put people in dangerous situations without concern of safety.

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Offline stack

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Re: Death of Mike Hughes
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2020, 10:37:52 PM »
My guess is that it's probably under the same procedure/guise used for all sorts of dangerous entertainment types of ventures. Redbull and GoPro, for example, probably have all of the athletes/daredevils they feature and pay as their sponsor and/or for events sign hold harmless/limited liability agreements/disclosures. It's a pretty standard practice.

As for Mike, a tragedy for sure. I've seen a couple of interviews with him. Quite the character, very committed and I guy I would have liked to grab a beer with and listen to his stories. He lived large for sure.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Death of Mike Hughes
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2020, 11:07:33 PM »
The Red Bull Stratos jump was a 30 million dollar project, where they did take responsibility for safety. Certified, state of the art equipment was provided with the necessary flight engineering expertise. Highly trained professionals ensured necessary health and safety checks. There were medical professionals involved, a mission control, and even scientific summits to discuss the scientific data from the tools on the suit and balloon.

How is this anything like that?

Even circuses have safety regulations that need to be followed. Tethers, harnesses, nets.

Can you please tell me how an employer can legally put people into dangerous situations? What kind of liability contract overrides federal safety laws?
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 01:19:14 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline stack

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Re: Death of Mike Hughes
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2020, 11:10:36 PM »
The Red Bull Stratos jump was a 30 million dollar project, financed by Red Bull, where they did take responsibility for safety. State of the art equipment was provided, and highly trained professionals ensured necessary health and safety checks. There were medical professionals involved, a mission control, and even scientific summits to discuss the scientific data from the tools on the suit and balloon.

How is this anything like that?

Even circuses have safety regulations that need to be followed. Tethers, harnesses, nets.

Can you please tell me how an employer can legally put people into dangerous situations? What kind of liability contract overrides federal safety laws?

Redbull did and has done a lot more than just the Stratos jump. But if you want to use that as an example, cool. How do you know that Discovery didn't do as Redbull did and took responsibility for safety?

And even so, Felix could have easily died. Due to no fault of those responsible for safety.

At this point, I'm not sure what your point is. We don't know what Discovery did or didn't do and it's a little murky as to what they would be required to do. But for all we know, Discovery could have been all over every aspect of the event and it still went awry. 

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Death of Mike Hughes
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2020, 01:02:37 AM »
How do you know that Discovery didn't do as Redbull did and took responsibility for safety?
Pay attention to the thread. The assertion made by your camp is that we are responsible. Implicating the TV station is five notches of crazy down from that. The point is to see just how much you lot will double down on your lunacy, and so far you're exceeding expectations.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 01:04:34 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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