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Offline Roundy

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Ultraprocessed Foods
« on: September 10, 2022, 08:31:38 PM »
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/ultra-processed-foods-linked-to-heart-disease-cancer-and-death-studies-show

Keep eating your Impossible meat, folks. You're helping save the world, I am sure. I'll stick with real food myself.
Dr. Frank is a physicist. He says it's impossible. So it's impossible.
My friends, please remember Tom said this the next time you fall into the trap of engaging him, and thank you. :)

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Ultraprocessed Foods
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2022, 08:42:19 PM »
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/ultra-processed-foods-linked-to-heart-disease-cancer-and-death-studies-show

Keep eating your Impossible meat, folks. You're helping save the world, I am sure. I'll stick with real food myself.
Have you seen that list?
Its basically "If you have a diet high in saturated fats, sugars, and preservatives, it'll cause issues".  And that's like... duh?

Also:
Quote
However, researchers reported no correlation between overall ultra-processed food consumption and increased colorectal cancer risk in women.
Apparently women are immune? 

Oh wait no...
Quote
Additionally, researchers found that certain types of ultra-processed foods placed both men and women at higher colorectal cancer risk.
Ok, can someone explain why those two sentences, literally one after the other, seem to be contradictory?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Ultraprocessed Foods
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2022, 09:06:57 PM »
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/ultra-processed-foods-linked-to-heart-disease-cancer-and-death-studies-show

Keep eating your Impossible meat, folks. You're helping save the world, I am sure. I'll stick with real food myself.
Have you seen that list?
Its basically "If you have a diet high in saturated fats, sugars, and preservatives, it'll cause issues".  And that's like... duh?

Sure. Ignoring the rest of the list, duh.

Quote
Also:
Quote
However, researchers reported no correlation between overall ultra-processed food consumption and increased colorectal cancer risk in women.
Apparently women are immune? 

Oh wait no...
Quote
Additionally, researchers found that certain types of ultra-processed foods placed both men and women at higher colorectal cancer risk.
Ok, can someone explain why those two sentences, literally one after the other, seem to be contradictory?

You missed the word "overall" in the first case and the phrase "certain types" in the second.

Come on Dave, even you can do better than this. I think.
Dr. Frank is a physicist. He says it's impossible. So it's impossible.
My friends, please remember Tom said this the next time you fall into the trap of engaging him, and thank you. :)

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Ultraprocessed Foods
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2022, 09:25:12 PM »
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/ultra-processed-foods-linked-to-heart-disease-cancer-and-death-studies-show

Keep eating your Impossible meat, folks. You're helping save the world, I am sure. I'll stick with real food myself.
Have you seen that list?
Its basically "If you have a diet high in saturated fats, sugars, and preservatives, it'll cause issues".  And that's like... duh?

Sure. Ignoring the rest of the list, duh.
Well the list was what qualified it as Ultraprocessed.  I doubt they went so deep as to find food that had nothing except flavor packs and tested if that has a higher risk of cancer/disease or not.

Quote
Quote
Also:
Quote
However, researchers reported no correlation between overall ultra-processed food consumption and increased colorectal cancer risk in women.
Apparently women are immune? 

Oh wait no...
Quote
Additionally, researchers found that certain types of ultra-processed foods placed both men and women at higher colorectal cancer risk.
Ok, can someone explain why those two sentences, literally one after the other, seem to be contradictory?

You missed the word "overall" in the first case and the phrase "certain types" in the second.

Come on Dave, even you can do better than this. I think.
You are correct, I did miss that.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline xasop

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Re: Ultraprocessed Foods
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2022, 09:32:26 PM »
I'll stick with real food myself.
What do you mean by "real food"? Do you only pick wild fruits and hunt game to avoid the human influence of artificial selection? Or is making our food supply more efficient only okay as long as we don't understand what we're doing too well?
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Ultraprocessed Foods
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2022, 09:38:32 PM »
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/ultra-processed-foods-linked-to-heart-disease-cancer-and-death-studies-show

Keep eating your Impossible meat, folks. You're helping save the world, I am sure. I'll stick with real food myself.
Have you seen that list?
Its basically "If you have a diet high in saturated fats, sugars, and preservatives, it'll cause issues".  And that's like... duh?

Sure. Ignoring the rest of the list, duh.
Well the list was what qualified it as Ultraprocessed.  I doubt they went so deep as to find food that had nothing except flavor packs and tested if that has a higher risk of cancer/disease or not.

You literally quoted one item on the list, though. Did you miss the others?

I'll stick with real food myself.
What do you mean by "real food"? Do you only pick wild fruits and hunt game to avoid the human influence of artificial selection? Or is making our food supply more efficient only okay as long as we don't understand what we're doing too well?

The article categorizes food as unprocessed or minimally processed, processed culinary ingredients, processed, and ultraprocessed, and singles out ultraprocessed as the one that's really bad for you. So yeah, I eat some processed foods, it's kinda impossible in modern society to avoid it. I do not eat disgusting ultraprocessed vegetable material reformed to look, taste, and feel like meat. Ew.
Dr. Frank is a physicist. He says it's impossible. So it's impossible.
My friends, please remember Tom said this the next time you fall into the trap of engaging him, and thank you. :)

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Offline xasop

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Re: Ultraprocessed Foods
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2022, 09:53:57 PM »
I do not eat disgusting ultraprocessed vegetable material reformed to look, taste, and feel like meat. Ew.
It seems strange to avoid such a broad category of foods based on the general principle of production. Personally, I prefer to try specific products and decide if I like them.

That also does not appear to be what this article is talking about. Some examples of ultraprocessed foods it gives are "margarine", "candies" and "sweetened yogurt". Do you avoid these things too?
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Ultraprocessed Foods
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2022, 10:24:45 PM »
I do not eat disgusting ultraprocessed vegetable material reformed to look, taste, and feel like meat. Ew.
It seems strange to avoid such a broad category of foods based on the general principle of production. Personally, I prefer to try specific products and decide if I like them.

Based on the article, maybe you should reconsider that strategy.

Quote
That also does not appear to be what this article is talking about. Some examples of ultraprocessed foods it gives are "margarine", "candies" and "sweetened yogurt". Do you avoid these things too?

I avoid margarine. And as a general rule I avoid candy too, because it's just not good for you. Occasionally I'll have a sweetened yogurt, I guess ya got me.  :(
« Last Edit: September 10, 2022, 10:26:25 PM by Roundy »
Dr. Frank is a physicist. He says it's impossible. So it's impossible.
My friends, please remember Tom said this the next time you fall into the trap of engaging him, and thank you. :)

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Offline BillO

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Re: Ultraprocessed Foods
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2022, 01:26:26 AM »
Highly processed foods will kill you.

Sugars, preservatives (there are so many of them), emulsifiers, low grade carbs, gums, plasticizers, trans-fats - these are the killing ingredients that are found in great quantities in highly processed foods.

Saturated fats and dietary cholesterol have been found not to be the evil things we used to think they were.  Eggs, butter, cream and cheese (if you don't have dairy issues) won't kill you like sugar or starch will.  Body fat is created by the assimilation of triglycerides via insulin.  Triglycerides are created by the body in the processing of simple carbohydrates like sugars.  Starches are broken down into sugars very early in the digestive process.

Quote from: Ironic Pete
I DO NOT NEED DATA, I'M PRETTY SURE I'M RIGHT!!!!

You think something is true, and that's good enough for you.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Ultraprocessed Foods
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2022, 06:46:12 AM »
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/ultra-processed-foods-linked-to-heart-disease-cancer-and-death-studies-show

Keep eating your Impossible meat, folks. You're helping save the world, I am sure. I'll stick with real food myself.
Have you seen that list?
Its basically "If you have a diet high in saturated fats, sugars, and preservatives, it'll cause issues".  And that's like... duh?

Sure. Ignoring the rest of the list, duh.
Well the list was what qualified it as Ultraprocessed.  I doubt they went so deep as to find food that had nothing except flavor packs and tested if that has a higher risk of cancer/disease or not.

You literally quoted one item on the list, though. Did you miss the others?
I didn't.  Just pointing out that the list includes things we know are bad for you.  I also soft include the hydrogenated fats and corn syrup in my previous post.  The preservatives, flavor packs, and other addatives probably need their own study.
Basically: Ultraprocessed could have things we know are bad for you already so of course those ultraprocessed foods are bad for you.

Also, the definition seems a bit much.  One item makes it ultraprocessed?
Fresh ground beef typically has a red dye added in to make it look fresher and more appealing instead of the normal brownish color.
That, by that article, makes it Ultraprocessed.  At least so it seems to me.


If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline BillO

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Re: Ultraprocessed Foods
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2022, 02:22:06 PM »
Some examples of ultraprocessed foods it gives are "margarine", "candies" and "sweetened yogurt". Do you avoid these things too?
With every fiber of my being.  I wouldn't touch margarine with 10 foot pole and I don't consume sweets or anything that has sugar as a part of the list of ingredients.
Quote from: Ironic Pete
I DO NOT NEED DATA, I'M PRETTY SURE I'M RIGHT!!!!

You think something is true, and that's good enough for you.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Ultraprocessed Foods
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2022, 02:31:06 PM »
Some examples of ultraprocessed foods it gives are "margarine", "candies" and "sweetened yogurt". Do you avoid these things too?
With every fiber of my being.  I wouldn't touch margarine with 10 foot pole and I don't consume sweets or anything that has sugar as a part of the list of ingredients.

How are you alive?
Sugars are essential for human life.  What, you don't even eat fruit?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline BillO

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Re: Ultraprocessed Foods
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2022, 02:54:20 PM »
Some examples of ultraprocessed foods it gives are "margarine", "candies" and "sweetened yogurt". Do you avoid these things too?
With every fiber of my being.  I wouldn't touch margarine with 10 foot pole and I don't consume sweets or anything that has sugar as a part of the list of ingredients.

How are you alive?
Sugars are essential for human life.  What, you don't even eat fruit?
My body will get all the sugar it needs from the foods I eat.   And I do eat fruit, but not sweet fruit.  I eat fruit like tomatoes, avocados, cucumbers, peppers, certain members of the squash family like zucchini and small quantities of wild berries when they are in season.  I don't eat bananas, apples, oranges, pears or other high sugar fruit.  I also eat large amounts of cruciferous vegetables, greens, onions, garlic, etc..  These all have some amount of carbohydrates which the body will break down into the all the sugar it needs.  In fact, much more than it needs.

However, if humans get no dietary carbohydrates at all, they can live quite nicely.  The main metabolic process in humans is supposed to be ketone based, not glucose.  Some processes in the human body need tiny amounts of glucose and it can produce all it needs through gluconeogenesis.

But, of course, what I meant by what I wrote above was that I read the list of ingredients for the small quantity of processed food I eat and if sugar is there, I don't buy it or eat it.
Quote from: Ironic Pete
I DO NOT NEED DATA, I'M PRETTY SURE I'M RIGHT!!!!

You think something is true, and that's good enough for you.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Ultraprocessed Foods
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2022, 03:01:16 PM »
Some examples of ultraprocessed foods it gives are "margarine", "candies" and "sweetened yogurt". Do you avoid these things too?
With every fiber of my being.  I wouldn't touch margarine with 10 foot pole and I don't consume sweets or anything that has sugar as a part of the list of ingredients.

How are you alive?
Sugars are essential for human life.  What, you don't even eat fruit?
My body will get all the sugar it needs from the foods I eat.   And I do eat fruit, but not sweet fruit.  I eat fruit like tomatoes, avocados, cucumbers, peppers, certain members of the squash family like zucchini and small quantities of wild berries when they are in season.  I don't eat bananas, apples, oranges, pears or other high sugar fruit.  I also eat large amounts of cruciferous vegetables, greens, onions, garlic, etc..  These all have some amount of carbohydrates which the body will break down into the all the sugar it needs.  In fact, much more than it needs.

However, if humans get no dietary carbohydrates at all, they can live quite nicely.  The main metabolic process in humans is supposed to be ketone based, not glucose.  Some processes in the human body need tiny amounts of glucose and it can produce all it needs through gluconeogenesis.

But, of course, what I meant by what I wrote above was that I read the list of ingredients for the small quantity of processed food I eat and if sugar is there, I don't buy it or eat it.

So basically added sugar or high sugar content.

That makes more sense.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline BillO

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Re: Ultraprocessed Foods
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2022, 03:11:13 PM »
So basically added sugar or high sugar content.
Right.
Quote from: Ironic Pete
I DO NOT NEED DATA, I'M PRETTY SURE I'M RIGHT!!!!

You think something is true, and that's good enough for you.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Ultraprocessed Foods
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2022, 04:23:10 PM »
The key to a good diet in America is to just avoid anything that has "high fructose corn syrup" or a similar ingredient in it. That will remove the vast majority of processed foods that are incredibly bad for you.

I suspect the core problem of the Western diet is a "snackademic". A sedentary person should be targeting two to three meals per day with absolutely zero snacking. This should also total to roughly 2000 calories per day (again, for the sedentary person). When I was about 23 I had a dietary study done and they determined if I laid in bed absolutely all day, not moving an inch, I'd burn about 2100 calories, so your mileage may vary greatly on the calorie targeting. If you're a sedentary person eating 3000+ calories a day you are well on your way to turning into a butter goblin.

In general, most adults should target their diets to comprise of 45-65% Carbohydrates, 10-35% Protein and 20-35% Fat.

Many diets across the globe instead end up looking like 70+% carbs. This even includes generally food-starved nations such as those in Sub-Saharan Africa, where we send lots of food aid in the form of grains and not much else. The thing most absent from diets is usually protein because it's the most expensive component.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2022, 04:24:46 PM by Rushy »

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Offline markjo

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Re: Ultraprocessed Foods
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2022, 06:03:45 PM »
Many diets across the globe instead end up looking like 70+% carbs. This even includes generally food-starved nations such as those in Sub-Saharan Africa, where we send lots of food aid in the form of grains and not much else. The thing most absent from diets is usually protein because it's the most expensive component.
Implying that grains can't be good sources of protein.
https://www.myfooddata.com/articles/grains-high-in-protein.php
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

#firePete

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Ultraprocessed Foods
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2022, 06:47:36 PM »
Many diets across the globe instead end up looking like 70+% carbs. This even includes generally food-starved nations such as those in Sub-Saharan Africa, where we send lots of food aid in the form of grains and not much else. The thing most absent from diets is usually protein because it's the most expensive component.
Implying that grains can't be good sources of protein.
https://www.myfooddata.com/articles/grains-high-in-protein.php

That wasn't the implication. Look at how many carbs are in the those same grains compared to the percentage of protein. For example, the top one is Kamut. You get 1.4g of fat, 9.8g of protein for every 47.5g of carbs. That means the best grain you have to offer is 81% carbs and only 16.7% protein. This is why grain-heavy diets are a one way ticket to obesity.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Ultraprocessed Foods
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2022, 08:14:51 PM »
Many diets across the globe instead end up looking like 70+% carbs. This even includes generally food-starved nations such as those in Sub-Saharan Africa, where we send lots of food aid in the form of grains and not much else. The thing most absent from diets is usually protein because it's the most expensive component.
Implying that grains can't be good sources of protein.
https://www.myfooddata.com/articles/grains-high-in-protein.php

That wasn't the implication. Look at how many carbs are in the those same grains compared to the percentage of protein. For example, the top one is Kamut. You get 1.4g of fat, 9.8g of protein for every 47.5g of carbs. That means the best grain you have to offer is 81% carbs and only 16.7% protein. This is why grain-heavy diets are a one way ticket to obesity.
Actually, it's a sedentary lifestyle, regardless of diet, that's the one way ticket to obesity.

Please don't confuse complex carbs found in grains with "ultraprocessed" refined sugars.  Complex carbs take longer to break down and are harder to convert to body fat than simple carbs/sugars or the fats that often accompany animal proteins.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

#firePete

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Ultraprocessed Foods
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2022, 09:24:02 PM »
Actually, it's a sedentary lifestyle, regardless of diet, that's the one way ticket to obesity.

Please don't confuse complex carbs found in grains with "ultraprocessed" refined sugars.  Complex carbs take longer to break down and are harder to convert to body fat than simple carbs/sugars or the fats that often accompany animal proteins.

Obesity can not happen "regardless of diet". If you diet correctly with a sedentary lifestyle, you cannot get obese. The complex/simple carb topic is completely irrelevant.