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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #360 on: April 10, 2022, 06:00:55 PM »
I notice that it says "might" there.
You're very perceptive, a refreshing change. Not that it changes anything at all.

And while not directly related to blackmail, sadly even threats are employed against children regarding this
Of course. Some teachers abuse their position of power. It is the responsibility of other staff, teachers and the principal to identify, prevent, and report such incidents. However, this is wholly distinct from simple conversations about gender, and it is even more distinct from simply writing books on the subject. You are, of course, well aware of this.

I repeat my call for you to begin arguing in good faith. You mustn't abuse our commitment to free speech.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2022, 06:04:35 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #361 on: April 10, 2022, 10:00:07 PM »
stack has been apparently agreeing with the Disney producer that they should make their children's programming as queer as possible.
And you are continuing to not understand what that means, even though it has been explained to you.

You have this idea that the "gay agenda" is about recruiting - trying to turn as many kids gay as possible (while laughing evilly, presumably).
What it's actually about is equality, acceptance, representation and helping kids make sense of how they feel and of the world in general.

You talk about the "historic rates of depression and suicide among the LGBT" and elsewhere say that that children should certainly "feel unloved or ashamed" for who they are. Holy shit, dude! Can you not see a link between those two things? You think kids should feel "unloved and ashamed" if they feel a certain way - historically that IS how gay people have felt because of people like you. Are you then surprised about the high rate of depression and suicide? I'm just throwing this out there but if gay kids grow up feeling loved and accepted then maybe they wouldn't then be depressed?

Your fundamental problem is you believe being gay is a sin and an abomination. Look at you spluttering with rage that there are books with:

Quote
imagery of happy people under colorful rainbows, wearing colorful clothes or doing something fun. This is not mere emotionless education about the existence of gay people. By inserting such imagery it is an attempt to make it look appealing

Presumably you have no issue with the mountains of books showing happy heterosexual people. You're OK with that "grooming" and "indoctrination", just not which depicts a lifestyle which you believe to be an abomination, right?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2022, 08:33:47 AM by AllAroundTheWorld »
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #362 on: April 12, 2022, 03:02:18 AM »
Please do not attribute words and phrases to me in quotation marks that I never said.

I have clearly and repeatedly advocated that children should be left to be kids and decide for themselves once they are capable of making rational decisions. The concern is that LGBT teachers should not be trying to sexualize and condition children with media and children's books which glamorizes crossdressing and drag queens and transgenderism, and with material which tries to depict gay people as cool or better or more fun. The material may seem harmless if given to an adult, immediately recognized as propaganda, but children are impressionable. This is more than simple education of the existence of these things. This is promotion and conditioning.

The argument I am receiving from you guys appears to concede that the LGBT community is trying to influence and condition children, but "what about heterosexual society brainwashing children?!" (paraphrased) with terms like male and female and mothers and fathers and families apparent in literature. This argument is basically turning a blind eye to the blatant LGBT manipulation of children, and is a false equivalency.
 
Schools do not typically directly push heterosexual ideologies onto them in regards to their sexuality as a form of conditioning. Sexuality is a very controlled subject. Some of those basic ideas of society being complained about are simply the societal norms the children can be expected to grow up in. It is statistically expected that a "boy" will be a "boy" when he is older. They don't need someone trying to directly manipulate them otherwise.

Read about the methods at this Swedish Preschool:

https://www-varldenidag-se.translate.goog/nyheter/genusforskola-vi-slangde-alla-bocker-om-pippi-och-emil/reprid!Mox9LCNwAyhygNeVenhjIw/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

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Gender preschool: We threw away all the books about Pippi and Emil

All children should be called "hen", boys are pressured to wear dresses and Astrid Lindgren books have been thrown in the name of norm criticism. That is the reality at a municipal preschool in southern Sweden. - One day a girl whispered in my ear: "Am I a boy or a girl?", Says one of the babysitters at the preschool.

When Anna started working at a southern Swedish preschool about two years ago, she was getting a shock. A girl had come up to her and shown her shirt with a butterfly on it, whereupon Anna had said: "Oh, how nice!". But she would not have said that. Immediately one of the other educators came up to her and said that you must not tell the children that something they are wearing is nice, or that they are cute.

Anna then tried to think about how she expressed herself, but soon she noticed that it was not the only thing she would need to think about. When she said "he" or "she" about the children, she got new curses.

"You may not gender the children. We say hen ", said my colleague, says Anna.

This was also noticed when Anna was reading books to the children. The staff had taken Tipp-Ex and crossed out all "he" and "she" and instead written a "hen" there.

However, this would not be enough.

One day when we were cleaning among the toys, my colleagues threw away all the Emil and Pippi books. I thought it was unnecessary to throw away books and asked why, says Anna.

The answer she received was that there were no gender-neutral people in the books. The bookshelves at the preschool have now instead been filled with children's books with themes such as transsexuality and homosexuality, says Anna.

The children in the department that Anna works in are three to four years old, but even when she jumped into the preschool's toddler department, she noticed the norm-critical thinking.

The one-two-year-olds sat in a ring while the educators told us that a girl can fall in love with a girl and a boy with a boy. Then some of the children were asked: "Who are you in love with?". A little boy looked completely confused and then said "my lego", says Anna.

Speaking of lego, it is one of the toys that, according to Anna, is accepted in her department. There have not been dolls as long as she has worked there, and recently the cars and trains also went out, she says.

Something that is left is the costumes. One day it was a boy who had put on a firefighter's suit, says Anna.

"You know you can wear a dress if you want?" then one of the educators came and said, according to Anna.

"But I do not want a dress, I want to wear this", the boy is said to have replied.

"But you know you can wear a dress?" continued the educator, says Anna.

I do not understand why the children should be forced into something. Let them wear what they want, she says.

...

She says that words like "snowman" and "Santa Claus" may not be used, but have been replaced by gender-neutral words, and that a popular Disney movie has in principle been blacklisted.

One day a three-year-old girl came up to me and said: "Today I am a boy." Almost a year later, just before the summer holidays, she came up to me and whispered anxiously in my ear: "Am I a boy or a girl?"

Anna ignored all the directives and said firmly: "You are a girl".

I can not follow those rules. I just can not. They go against everything I know.

What these educators are doing is clearly wrong in numerous ways, and is a disservice to these extremely young children who deserve to just be left alone without someone trying to manipulate them in favor of their own ideology.

It is clearly the default in society for  boys and girls to be called boys and girls, and it is expected that 'boy' will continue to be a 'boy' in his life. Why deliberately try to confuse young children? Traditional male-female genderism and heterosexuality is the default in society, clearly, and is beyond control. This is simply the basic state of biology, apparent in many species. A simple fact of existence and the world which they will take part in. A minority of children will eventually decide otherwise, but that is for them to decide at a mature and appropriate time. The answer is not to condition and confuse children about their sexuality in Preschool, but to wait and let them decide once they are capable of making rational decisions. Acceptance is not encouraging little boys to wear dresses and stripping away their birth gender.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2022, 04:26:34 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #363 on: April 12, 2022, 03:22:20 AM »
I simply do not see how anyone can defend this sort of blatant conditioning. A school in Britain was making six year old children write gay love letters.

https://anglicanmainstream.org/bbc-video-shows-6-year-old-schoolkids-being-made-to-write-gay-love-letters/

Quote
BBC video shows 6-year-old schoolkids being made to write ‘gay’ love letters

BBC Radio Manchester shared a video on its Facebook page featuring 6-year-olds being made to write love letters from one male story character to another male story character, imploring him to marry the other.

The video shows children pen a note from “Prince Henry” to his servant “Thomas.”

“This class of 6-year-olds is learning about gay marriage. In this fairy tale, the prince wants to marry his [male] servant. And the children are writing a love letter,” said teacher Sarah Hopson.

In June, the school received an award and became the first school in the region to win a LGBT+ award.


The school even received a LGBT+ award to recognize their exemplary treatment of children. How quaint.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2022, 05:56:25 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #364 on: April 12, 2022, 08:48:47 AM »
I simply do not see how anyone can defend this sort of blatant conditioning. A school in Britain was making six year old children write gay love letters.
That's around the same age they'd write straight love letters in most UK schools. Why are you railing against one and ignoring the other?

School do not typically directly push heterosexual ideologies as a form of conditioning.
You have yet to demonstrate that it's a form of "conditioning", beyond just repeatedly calling it "blatant". It's not blatant.

Early stages of education can look pretty weird to adults who remember none of it, and who have since not engaged with it. That's why we need highly trained professionals and not armchair pedagogues to maintain the system.
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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #365 on: April 12, 2022, 10:06:00 AM »
Please do not attribute words and phrases to me in quotation marks that I never said.
Fair. Have edited my post. I do think it is what you believe - you certainly haven't denied it and have had ample opportunity to - but you haven't said it out loud so have removed the quotations around "abomination".

Quote
I have clearly and repeatedly advocated that children should be left to be kids and decide for themselves once they are capable of making rational decisions.
Which is reasonable, and I don't believe anyone would argue against that.
But you seem to want them to do that without being told that being gay is a thing, that some men marry other men, that some kids have two dads or two mums.
And you might well believe that is all wrong, but it's the reality of the world kids are growing up in so they need to understand that.
Kids don't need to know about sex at this age, no-one is suggesting that. But 5 year olds understand about love (at a basic level), they understand that people get married.
Understanding that sometimes those people are two men or two women is part of them making sense of the world they live in.
When they get older it might help them make sense of their feelings.

What you see as an attempt to "sexualize and condition children" is actually an attempt to help children understand the world and feel accepted. You note the "historic rates of depression and suicide among the LGBT", but fail to acknowledge that those rates are because such people have been made to "feel unloved or ashamed" - something which astonishingly you condone. The thing you are taking issue with here is the very thing which should solve the problem of depression and suicide among the LGBT.

Do the books which try to "depict gay people as cool or better or more fun" show heterosexuals as sad? Are they actively promoting being gay as better than straight? I don't actually know the answer but I'd be very surprised were that so. The issue you really have is that you believe being gay is wrong and you don't want kids to be taught that they can be happy that way. You have already said that kids should "feel unloved or ashamed" - the quotes are correct this time. It's a reprehensible attitude.

Quote
The argument I am receiving from you guys appears to concede that the LGBT community is trying to influence and condition children
It depends what you mean by this. If they are trying to influence and condition children in to feeling loved and accepted and that it's OK to feel how they do then I guess people are trying to do that - not just the LGBT community. I'd suggest that's a good thing. It's a million times more healthy than them feeling "unloved and ashamed" for how they are. What a horrible and backward attitude.

Quote
It is statistically expected that a "boy" will be a "boy" when he is older. They don't need someone trying to directly manipulate them otherwise.
No-one is trying to manipulate children. But being told that if they feel differently then that's OK is important. What you do about that is a separate issue. Where we are as a society right now different sexualities are accepted - so you don't "do" anything about that. With trans stuff we as a society are still on a journey. Personally I don't think young children should be having gender correction surgery or drugs suppressing puberty. But kids feeling loved and accepted is important. The old attitudes which you are still promoting in this thread have done a lot of damage down the years.

The Swedish preschool example - I would agree that is going too far but having looked this up such kindergartens are outliers even in Sweden. You're cherry picking an extreme example as usual, it's not what most people would advocate.
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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #366 on: April 12, 2022, 10:25:26 AM »
I simply do not see how anyone can defend this sort of blatant conditioning. A school in Britain was making six year old children write gay love letters.

I'm guessing this teacher should be fired under the law for grooming, downright conditioning her students regarding the result of a perceived sexual act? She makes baby-making look fun! Not to mention, her students know her as "Mrs." She must be married, she even probably wears a ring. She has a partner! A partner she probably has sex with! Full-on hetero grooming/conditioning if I've ever seen it. The horror!

Pregnant Teacher Asks Her 6-Year-Old Students To Give Her Parenting Advice And Gets These 16 Hilarious Responses




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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #367 on: April 12, 2022, 01:51:58 PM »
Its worse than that.

She was pregnant.
Which means kids asked where babies come from.
And, as Tom points out, the teacher MUST HAVE TALKED ABOUT SEX!!!!
This teacher, by virtue of being visibly pregnant at school and not claiming to be fat, has corrupted our children!  Now all the girls will want babies and the sex that makes them.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #368 on: April 12, 2022, 01:52:24 PM »
I simply do not see how anyone can defend this sort of blatant conditioning. A school in Britain was making six year old children write gay love letters.
That's around the same age they'd write straight love letters in most UK schools. Why are you railing against one and ignoring the other?

So your argument is that children should be forced to write love letters because they are capable of it and might write a love letter to someone? Children are capable of a lot of actions. This is not a justification that forcing them to perform those actions is appropriate.

If students are writing love letters in school to each other on a personal level then that is their own personal perogrative, clearly. If a teacher forced a student to pretend to write a heterosexual love letter to an external individual in society that the teacher decided the child must write a love letter to it would garner complaints.

How is it not conditioning to force children to pretend to be gay in classroom activities? It appears that your justification is just than that the children are capable of it. This is not justification at all.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2022, 02:03:52 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #369 on: April 12, 2022, 01:58:08 PM »
So your argument is that children should be forced [...]
No, and if you cannot argue without these false accusations, then don't expect me to waste my time.

If students are writing love letters in school to each other on a personal level
Why would I talk about anything they do on a personal level? We're talking about what happens during class activities, Tom. Yeah, I'm not surprised you didn't know children write fantasy love leters in class (see also: armchair pedagogues with no experience of education), but now that this information is available to you, you can try and adapt your beliefs to it.

It appears that your justification is just than that the children are capable of it.
The way things "appear" to you is irrelevant. Respond to what's been said, and not to your imagination thereof. If you haven't understood something, ask.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2022, 02:00:55 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #370 on: April 12, 2022, 02:11:33 PM »
So your argument is that children should be forced [...]
No, and if you cannot argue without these false accusations, then don't expect me to waste my time.

From what I am reading here it seems that you thought it was appropriate for the teacher to force the children to write a love letter. Why not defend that it is appropriate to force a child to write a love letter?

If you do not think it is appropriate to force children to write love letters then you should simply say that doing this is wrong rather than giving the appearance of defending it.

Quote
Yeah, I'm not surprised you didn't know children write fantasy love leters in class

Is there evidence for this? Did the teachers instruct them to do this, or did you mean that this is something that students decide to do on their own?

Quote from: Pete Svarrior
Respond to what's been said, and not to your imagination thereof. If you haven't understood something, ask.

I am trying to asking you guys some questions on how these things are appropriate but you just deflect with another question or a comment along the lines that you know how things work and others dont, so you are correct.

Here are some direct questions:

How is it appropriate for a child to be forced to write a love letter?

How is it appropriate for a child to be forced to pretend to be gay in classroom activities?

These are genuine questions from me which I would appreciate direct answers to. I genuinely do not understand how this is appropriate.

Teachers are in a special posion of authority, as you conceded to. Teachers are role models. If a teacher asks you to do something there is institutional pressure and an implied threat behind it. Children are incapable of consenting, even if they choose to agree with you.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2022, 02:36:43 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #371 on: April 12, 2022, 02:50:12 PM »
From what I am reading here it seems that you thought it was appropriate for the teacher to force the children to write a love letter. Why not defend that it is appropriate to force a child to write a love letter?
Tom, I will say this one last time. You are currently in PR&S, and you are expected to argue in good faith. If you cannot do that, please find somewhere else to post.

Is there evidence for this?
Ah, how peculiar that you suddenly require evidence, after ignoring so many calls for your own. But hey, of course I do! Here are just a few public resources in which educators shared parts of their lesson ideas around Valentine's Day. I'm surprised you haven't seen those before - considering your confidence in the subject, you'd have thought you at least ran a Google search.
https://www.pentagonplay.co.uk/news-and-info/valentines-day-lesson-ideas-for-eyfs-ks1-ks2-children
https://www.artistshelpingchildren.org/valentinesdaycardboxes.html
https://www.mrsmactivity.co.uk/downloads/i-love-you-to-pieces-writing-activity/

And here's a BBC KS1 resource proposing it as a follow-up activity to the broadcast: https://www.bbc.co.uk/teach/school-radio/primary-school-assemblies-collective-worship-ks1-valentines-day/ztcysk7

Did the teachers instruct them to do this or is this something that students do on their own?
Come on, Tom. What is this insanity? 6-year old children left unsupervised to do something on their own? Now that would be grossly inappropriate (and it reminds us that you have absolutely no context on the subject you're discussing)! The teacher has ultimate responsibility for those kids, and, as you aptly pointed out, they have no capacity to consent to anything.

Here are some direct questions:

How is it appropriate for a child to be forced to write a love letter?

How is it appropriate for a child to be forced to pretend to be gay in classroom activities?

These are genuine questions from me which I would appreciate direct answers to. I genuinely do not understand how this is appropriate.
Neither of these entirely hypothetical scenarios would be appropriate. If you ever find any examples of this happening, please report it to the school and local authorities. They will be well placed to take appropriate action.

However, I must warn you: you are currently misusing the word "forced" in a very fanciful way, and one that would get you a very negative response from anyone with authority. You should reserve the above advice for actual cases, and not for super cool troll arguments.

If a teacher asks you to do something there is institutional pressure and an implied threat behind it.
That goes against the very core of what teachers are trained to do, especially at such a young age. I'm afraid that such an extraordinary claim would require some extraordinary evidence. Until then, it can be discarded.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2022, 02:56:31 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #372 on: April 12, 2022, 03:02:10 PM »
Has tom even seen these "love letters"?
They're likely closer to "write a valenitne card to a classmate" which is very much "I like your hair" or "you have a cool pencil" or, if scandelous... "You're my best friend".

Since, ya know, kids don't have a concept of the emotional committment Tom is talking about and would write stuff they do know/care about.


Also: Teachers forced me to do MATH!  Oh the horror!
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #373 on: April 12, 2022, 03:04:42 PM »
Has tom even seen these "love letters"?
They're likely closer to "write a valenitne card to a classmate" which is very much "I like your hair" or "you have a cool pencil" or, if scandelous... "You're my best friend".
It's a literature class. They are writing a letter from one fictional character to another. Extremely common, extremely boring, except the characters are 👻 gay 🎃
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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #374 on: April 12, 2022, 03:36:00 PM »
Pretty much everything I did at school, I was forced to do.

They forced me to sing hymns at school assembly, when I hadn't really decided whether or not I believed. Participate in prayers, too. 

I seem to recall mandatory religious instruction, at least in my early years.

I had no interest in calculus, poetry, creative writing, or sports, but they were all mandatory and I got forced to do them.

I don't see why Tom's example of being (big, bold) FORCED is any different...
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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #375 on: April 12, 2022, 04:49:10 PM »
Has tom even seen these "love letters"?
They're likely closer to "write a valenitne card to a classmate" which is very much "I like your hair" or "you have a cool pencil" or, if scandelous... "You're my best friend".
It's a literature class. They are writing a letter from one fictional character to another. Extremely common, extremely boring, except the characters are 👻 gay 🎃
Ooohhh.
Well that's just silly to complain about then.  I thought it was like what I did in school where I had to make a valentines day card for someone in class.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #376 on: April 12, 2022, 07:03:02 PM »
Has tom even seen these "love letters"?
They're likely closer to "write a valenitne card to a classmate" which is very much "I like your hair" or "you have a cool pencil" or, if scandelous... "You're my best friend".
It's a literature class. They are writing a letter from one fictional character to another. Extremely common, extremely boring, except the characters are 👻 gay 🎃
The way it was described to the children was a Prince writing to one of his servants saying why they should get married.
It was an exercise in imagination which as you say happens in every classroom every day. The words "love letter" weren't even used as far as I can tell.
But, shock horror, the servant was male. So it's clearly something to get the veins bulging.
What does Tom think 6 year olds are going to write, that the Prince likes the feel of the servant's throbbing cock up his shitter?
I don't believe for one minute that Tom would have any issue with this were the servant female and there this was a "normal" relationship. He's made his feeling very clear about homosexuality with the comments about children feeling "unloved" and "ashamed". Tom doesn't have a problem with indoctrination, he has a problem with children being taught that things are OK when he doesn't believe that's true because "muh holy book".

(as an aside, as a regular Charlie Church, this is an issue I struggle with. Because the Bible does say certain things, but overall...why would God be that bothered about two blokes shacking up? I mean, the Old Testament also forbids prawn cocktails and clothes with mixed fabrics. So...yeah, I'm pretty liberal in my views on this because I know gay people and know that they just want to be loved and accepted as we all do. None of them chose to feel like that do any more than I chose to be straight. So...yeah, an issue I have some mixed feelings about and feel that the church has historically obsessed about it unnecessarily)
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #377 on: April 12, 2022, 07:17:31 PM »
I remember in like 1st and 2nd grade the teachers handing out handfuls of these on Valentine's Day:



We would give them to other kids in the class. Imagine the horror and backlash that would cause today?

Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #378 on: April 12, 2022, 08:18:15 PM »
Look at this heterosexual grooming and conditioning. It sickens me!



I bet just after they turned the cameras off they were banging on the school desk in front of the kids.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: FL GOP are homophobic crybabies
« Reply #379 on: April 13, 2022, 05:26:02 PM »
Tom; Taking a cue from Pete Buttigieg's quote recently, if the class are comparing notes on what they did at the weekend, would you seriously suggest that the kid(s) with two Dads or two Mums should be shut down by the teacher, and not allowed to relate about their lives?

If it's OK for the kids to talk about "Mum and Dad", it should be OK for them to talk about "Mum and Mum" or "Dad and Dad" - isn't it?

And if it's OK for the kids to talk about their family, why shouldn't the teacher?
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?