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Other Discussion Boards => Science & Alternative Science => Topic started by: Setec Astronomy on May 03, 2016, 05:05:27 AM

Title: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 03, 2016, 05:05:27 AM
The moon moves across the sky with an angular motion of about 14.5 degrees each hour, and the moon has an average diameter of 31.7 arcminutes. So it moves about 27.5 lunar diameters each hour, 0.45 diameters per minute or 0.0076 diameters each second. They say the moon's diameter is about 3476 kilometers, so that's about 26.4 kilometers (0.0076 * 3476) of lunar surface moving past each second from a fixed spot viewed from earth.

Light from the moon's surface takes ~1.3 seconds to reach earth, so any given spot a telescope is aimed at is actually behind the true position by about 34.32 kilometers (1.3 * 26.4) due to lightspeed delay. If a laser is aimed there, it will also take ~1.3 seconds to reach the moon's surface and miss the spot it was aimed at by double that amount - 68.64 kilometers.

Note that not one single description of the LLR experiments mentions taking this distance offset into account.

But lets go ahead and pretend they do and the laser is aimed ahead with the appropriate offset.

There is still a problem. A BIG and insurmountable problem!

The retro-reflector cannot aim light back towards earth at an offset - it can only reflect back at the exact angle the light was received, so the reflection will be aiming exactly at the apparent position of the light source at the moment it is received - and by that time the apparent position will be 34.32 km off from the true position on earth's surface, and the light will therefore be 68.64 km off from that position when it is reflected back to the earth.

It is claimed the reflected beam has a diameter of 20 km (an absurdly low divergence, but let's pretend it's true) when it reaches earth (see http://www.lpi.usra.edu/lunar/missions/apollo/apollo_15/experiments/lrr/ ) - but it would hit a spot on earth's surface nearly 70km away from the observatory, which means no portion of it's 20 km beam diameter area would come anywhere near the observatory's telescope!

Get it? The whole damn thing is impossible and it's proven so with their own numbers.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Lord Dave on May 03, 2016, 05:55:47 AM
26.4 lunar lengths per 24 hours, not per hour

http://cseligman.com/text/sky/moonmotion.htm
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 03, 2016, 06:10:22 AM
26.4 lunar lengths per 24 hours, not per hour

http://cseligman.com/text/sky/moonmotion.htm
That's with respect to the stars. I'm talking about with respect to a fixed point on earth (ie, an observatory), which is where the measurements are done. Watch the moon move across the sky in the course of a night.
Please don't confuse the issue.

(bold print clarified for Aspies)
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Lord Dave on May 03, 2016, 06:46:08 AM
26.4 lunar lengths per 24 hours, not per hour

http://cseligman.com/text/sky/moonmotion.htm
That's relative to the stars. I'm talking about relative to a fixed point on earth (ie, an observatory), which is where the measurements are done. Watch the moon move across the sky in the course of a night.
Please don't confuse the issue.
Relative to the stars?  The same stars that are trillions of lighyears away and fixed relative to the moon?

If you want measurements relative to the view from Earth, why are you using the size of the moon at the moon and not its apparent size from Earth?  You can't say 14 degrees per hour from Earth then use measurements for the moon's size relative to the stars.  You have to stay consistent in your frame of reference.

Also don't forget that the Earth rotates in the same direction the moon orbits.  Did you take that into account?
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 03, 2016, 06:58:22 AM
Ok, I see you're just an idiot who likes to obfuscate. Let's see how the "ignore" feature works.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 03, 2016, 07:11:22 AM
Unfortunately there appears to be no "ignore" function, so Lord Dave's droolings will be stuck in this thread.

For those who have a working brain (unlike Dave), please take note that the pertinent elements are the two surfaces (lunar and terrestrial) in relative motion to one another. Whether you model it as the earth rotating and the moon being relatively still, or both rotating at differential speeds, makes no difference to the math as far as the location and trajectory of the light beam is concerned.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on May 03, 2016, 01:04:41 PM
I don't understand your issue. You aim where the moon will be, not where it is. Since the pulse is already imparted with the Earth's motion, you do not need to account for that on the return trip.

It is a precise operation but not impossible.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 03, 2016, 04:42:10 PM
I don't understand your issue. You aim where the moon will be, not where it is.
As I said, let's assume they account for that even though it is not mentioned at all in LLR experiments.

Quote
Since the pulse is already imparted with the Earth's motion, you do not need to account for that on the return trip.
Completely untrue, and such ad-hoc explanations completely ignore what is known about light and retroreflectors. First of all, light's trajectory is unaffected by the source's state of motion. And the corner-cube array is only reflecting directly back at the apparent position as it is seen from the perspective of the retro-reflector.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on May 03, 2016, 08:15:13 PM
I don't understand your issue. You aim where the moon will be, not where it is.
As I said, let's assume they account for that even though it is not mentioned at all in LLR experiments.

Do you have a source for said procedures?

Quote
Quote
Since the pulse is already imparted with the Earth's motion, you do not need to account for that on the return trip.
Completely untrue, and such ad-hoc explanations completely ignore what is known about light and retroreflectors. First of all, light's trajectory is unaffected by the source's state of motion.

I am not sure where you get this idea from. Relative velocity does occur with light based on the motion of an FOR, but the relationship is not classical. See the Fizeau water experiment to learn more.

Quote
And the corner-cube array is only reflecting directly back at the apparent position as it is seen from the perspective of the retro-reflector.

Yes but if you aim where the reflector will be you cut out half the distance you cited in the OP which, per your figures, if they are correct, puts the position of the detector within the throw of the returning light pulses.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 03, 2016, 10:54:36 PM
Quote
And the corner-cube array is only reflecting directly back at the apparent position as it is seen from the perspective of the retro-reflector.

Yes but if you aim where the reflector will be you cut out half the distance you cited in the OP
I have very little patience with someone who cannot do math yet persists in arguing. The distance is calculated according to the apparent position of something over a quarter million miles away, which is going to be off by distance X. If a light is aimed at that apparent location (which is already off by X), when that light traverses the distance it will be off by X as well. X + X = 2X.

As for the LLR experimental details, there are a plethora of write-ups available on the internet. Here's a simple one by the University of California San Diego about New Mexico's "APOLLO".
http://www-physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/basics.html
No mention of the aiming offset at all. Only "just so" factoids.

Quote
Relative velocity does occur with light based on the motion of an FOR
The only affect emitter motion has on light is a doppler shift in frequency. It cannot change the speed of light or its trajectory once it has left the source.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on May 04, 2016, 03:58:16 AM
Quote
And the corner-cube array is only reflecting directly back at the apparent position as it is seen from the perspective of the retro-reflector.

Yes but if you aim where the reflector will be you cut out half the distance you cited in the OP
I have very little patience with someone who cannot do math yet persists in arguing.

If you persist in being an arrogant prick, you will quickly find yourself with no one to trouble you, so you are on the right path.

Quote
The distance is calculated according to the apparent position of something over a quarter million miles away, which is going to be off by distance X. If a light is aimed at that apparent location (which is already off by X), when that light traverses the distance it will be off by X as well. X + X = 2X.

It is rich that you claim to know more than others, but then do not understand how proper aiming can eliminate a portion of that error. 

Quote
As for the LLR experimental details, there are a plethora of write-ups available on the internet. Here's a simple one by the University of California San Diego about New Mexico's "APOLLO".
http://www-physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/basics.html
No mention of the aiming offset at all. Only "just so" factoids.

It's an FAQ, not a technical document.  Can I expect this level of thoroughness from everything you do?

Quote
Quote
Relative velocity does occur with light based on the motion of an FOR
The only affect emitter motion has on light is a doppler shift in frequency. It cannot change the speed of light or its trajectory once it has left the source.

So you did not look up the experiment I mentioned.  Well, if you had, you would know that the velocity of light is only constant in a vacuum and is subject to variation, but that the variation is non-classical.  Also, if the trajectory of light can't be altered, perhaps you can tell how mirrors actually work?

Why don't you come back once you have learned enough about the subject to actually criticize it.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 04, 2016, 05:20:49 AM
The distance is calculated according to the apparent position of something over a quarter million miles away, which is going to be off by distance X. If a light is aimed at that apparent location (which is already off by X), when that light traverses the distance it will be off by X as well. X + X = 2X.

It is rich that you claim to know more than others, but then do not understand how proper aiming can eliminate a portion of that error.
You are making the same error again despite having it pointed out to you.
Assume the laser is aimed such that it strikes the retro-reflector perfectly on center, OK.
Now, the light that strikes the retroreflector appears to originate from a specific location on the earth - but that apparent location is actually 1.3 seconds behind from where it is at the time the light reaches the reflector.
The reflector sends the light back towards that apparent location and that takes another 1.3 seconds.
We would have missed the retroreflector by the same amount if we had not compensated by aiming ahead of it's location to account for the lightspeed delay. But the retroreflector is dumb and only reflects light back towards where it appears to originate.
NOW do you get it???

Quote
If you persist in being an arrogant prick, you will quickly find yourself with no one to trouble you, so you are on the right path.
Considering the intelligence of the ones that have been troubling me thus far, that would be a welcome change. If you aren't bright enough to understand the conversation, it's best you don't join in.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on May 04, 2016, 11:40:43 AM
Well I am glad you at least concede my other points. That shows some good sense.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 04, 2016, 06:22:41 PM
Well I am glad you at least concede my other points. That shows some good sense.
I've conceded nothing. You are a twit who does not even understand math.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on May 04, 2016, 06:25:59 PM
Well I am glad you at least concede my other points. That shows some good sense.
I've conceded nothing. You are a twit who does not even understand math.

Still not addressing them.  Keep digging, or let us know how mirror's work if light's trajectory can not be altered.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 04, 2016, 07:09:14 PM
If you can't see your own simple math error in pretending the problem the observatory has aiming at the retroreflector and not missing it by 68.64 km is not the exact same problem that the retroreflector has aiming at the observatory and not missing it by 68.64 miles, why on earth would I bother addressing the rest of what you say, as you would only perform the exact same sort of obfuscation?

Quite amusing to see the defenders of round-earth hoax and the LLR hoax have nothing but trolling and non-comprehension of math to offer in the face of factual well-reasoned arguments. Even more amusing that you seem to think it accomplishes anything besides making yourself look foolish,
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on May 04, 2016, 09:27:09 PM
If you can't see your own simple math error in pretending the problem the observatory has aiming at the retroreflector and not missing it by 68.64 km is not the exact same problem that the retroreflector has aiming at the observatory and not missing it by 68.64 miles, why on earth would I bother addressing the rest of what you say, as you would only perform the exact same sort of obfuscation?

Quite amusing to see the defenders of round-earth hoax and the LLR hoax have nothing but trolling and non-comprehension of math to offer in the face of factual well-reasoned arguments. Even more amusing that you seem to think it accomplishes anything besides making yourself look foolish,

You're not qualified to perform a lunar ranging experiment unless there is extensive knowledge of GR and advanced calculus hiding in your brain. Is there?
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 04, 2016, 10:14:59 PM
Now you're just perseverating (a classic symptom found on the autistic spectrum by the way).

Here's something more your speed, 'Rama Set':
https://youtu.be/xkbQDEXJy2k
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on May 04, 2016, 10:27:26 PM
W0w you're so smart!  Have you found a source yet that is not an FAQ?
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 04, 2016, 11:24:57 PM
W0w you're so smart!  Have you found a source yet that is not an FAQ?
Have you learned how to do your own research instead of just spitballing like a gimp at the back of the short-bus? It seems you haven't.
My condolences to your parents.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on May 04, 2016, 11:39:14 PM
W0w you're so smart!  Have you found a source yet that is not an FAQ?
Have you learned how to do your own research instead of just spitballing like a gimp at the back of the short-bus? It seems you haven't.
My condolences to your parents.

I have, and none of the sources I read are FAQs.  Now please insult my parents again.  I will give you a topic: My Mom has Parkinson's.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 05, 2016, 12:59:42 AM
Now please insult my parents again.  I will give you a topic: My Mom has Parkinson's.

It seems we can add the definition of "condolences" to the list of things you don't know the meaning of, which leaves your mother doubly burdened because she also has a son who is something less than a halfwit. I'm sure it grieves her something awful, and that's a mark against you, not her.

Every reply you make reveals more and more that you haven't a single clue how the simple proof that the LLR is a hoax can be refuted. But rather than exploring the issue further on your own to determine what's going on, you perseverate due to your own mental dysfunction.

Your being a clueless simpleton is repulsive enough, but now that you're in the throes of denial its truly grotesque. Go back to your video games, man-child - and have dear sainted mumsy wipe your bottom if necessary (I can only imagine the odor that must permanently emanate from your vicinity).

EDIT: I strike that last part out because it is too personal and I wouldn't want it misconstrued as an attack on mother or son
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: garygreen on May 05, 2016, 02:44:02 AM
http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/0710.0890v2.pdf

Quote
The relative alignment between the outgoing beam and the receiver may not be an obviously
variable parameter. But one must intentionally point ahead of the lunar reflector—to where it
will be in 1.25 seconds—while looking behind the “current” position of the reflector—to where
it was 1.25 seconds ago. At the transverse velocity of the moon (∼ 1, 000 m/s), this translates
to approximately 1.4 arcsec of intentional misalignment between transmitter and receiver. But
because the telescope mount is driven on altitude and azimuth axes, the offset direction rotates
relative to the instrument depending on where the moon is in the sky. Additionally, the earth
rotation (∼ 400 m/s) changes the magnitude of the necessary offset. Because these effects are
comparable in magnitude to the divergence of the beam (∼ 1 arcsec) and to the field of view of the
receiver (1.4 arcsec), they must be accommodated in an adjustable manner.

(http://i.imgur.com/Rmo4Ger.png)
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 05, 2016, 03:19:43 AM
http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/0710.0890v2.pdf

Quote
The relative alignment between the outgoing beam and the receiver may not be an obviously
variable parameter. But one must intentionally point ahead of the lunar reflector—to where it
will be in 1.25 seconds—while looking behind the “current” position of the reflector—to where
it was 1.25 seconds ago. At the transverse velocity of the moon (∼ 1, 000 m/s), this translates
to approximately 1.4 arcsec of intentional misalignment between transmitter and receiver. But
because the telescope mount is driven on altitude and azimuth axes, the offset direction rotates
relative to the instrument depending on where the moon is in the sky. Additionally, the earth
rotation (∼ 400 m/s) changes the magnitude of the necessary offset. Because these effects are
comparable in magnitude to the divergence of the beam (∼ 1 arcsec) and to the field of view of the
receiver (1.4 arcsec), they must be accommodated in an adjustable manner.
Splendid find!

Now, as I said let's assume that they compensate for the lightspeed delay by "overshooting" the moon. Unfortunately the fixed retro-reflector cannot be aimed back in a way that will appropriately "overshoot" the earth for the reflected laser to be in the necessary range of the observatory. They ignore this half of the alignment problem (because it is indeed insurmountable) by showing only a single spot (apparently "C" in the diagram) from which the laser is both sent and received despite the change in position between emission, corner-cube reflection, and return.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 05, 2016, 04:37:48 AM
Here is a simple animation I created to illustrate the problem I'm describing.

(scale and proportions are exaggerated so as to be readily apparent)
(http://s32.postimg.org/77w1j94kl/LLR.gif)




Or, alternatively:
(http://s32.postimg.org/ls1ghj65h/LLR2.gif)

Or:
(http://s32.postimg.org/wv82rzvqd/LLR3.gif)
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: andruszkow on May 05, 2016, 07:00:33 AM
And, the angle of the (real, not your illustration) lunar reflector relative to the earth's surface is?
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 05, 2016, 09:36:42 AM
And, the angle of the (real, not your illustration) lunar reflector relative to the earth's surface is?
Before bogging yourself down with minutia, look at it logically. Here's a straightforward gedankenexperiment:

Imagine both locations on the earth and moon have a retroreflector and a powerful telescope and laser. Each telescope is trained on the other's location, so everything its seeing is 1.3 (or, without rounding, 1.25) seconds in the past.

On earth we look through the telescope at the retroreflector on the moon, aim the laser directly at it's apparent position - and it would miss. The earth-based laser must be aimed ahead at an offset from the lunar retroreflector's apparent position as seen through the telescope in order to strike it.

Yet looking through the lunar telescope at the retroreflector on earth, if the laser is aimed directly at it's apparent position - it wouldn't miss. This is equivalent to what is happening in the LLR when the retroreflector bounces light directly back toward the source's apparent location and is detected.

That is a contradiction, an inconsistency, it makes no sense as there is only one path light can take from point A to point B... and yet the LLR experiment hinges on this contradiction somehow being true (actually it hinges on it being overlooked).

There are many other problems with LLR and modern cosmology in general and space seance science in particular, other avenues which lead to understanding there is a nearly indescribable level of fakery and deception at play. This is just one that jumps out as being somewhat easy to begin unravelling. All that's required is willingness to look into the right rabbit-holes. BUT Most people just Won't want to wake up from the dream.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Pongo on May 05, 2016, 12:14:41 PM
Setec Astronomy, please review the rules of the forum. Personal attacks are against the rules.

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=977.0
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: andruszkow on May 05, 2016, 12:46:13 PM
And, the angle of the (real, not your illustration) lunar reflector relative to the earth's surface is?
Before bogging yourself down with minutia, look at it logically. Here's a straightforward gedankenexperiment:

Imagine both locations on the earth and moon have a retroreflector and a powerful telescope and laser. Each telescope is trained on the other's location, so everything its seeing is 1.3 (or, without rounding, 1.25) seconds in the past.

On earth we look through the telescope at the retroreflector on the moon, aim the laser directly at it's apparent position - and it would miss. The earth-based laser must be aimed ahead at an offset from the lunar retroreflector's apparent position as seen through the telescope in order to strike it.

Yet looking through the lunar telescope at the retroreflector on earth, if the laser is aimed directly at it's apparent position - it wouldn't miss. This is equivalent to what is happening in the LLR when the retroreflector bounces light directly back toward the source's apparent location and is detected.

That is a contradiction, an inconsistency, it makes no sense as there is only one path light can take from point A to point B... and yet the LLR experiment hinges on this contradiction somehow being true (actually it hinges on it being overlooked).

There are many other problems with LLR and modern cosmology in general and space seance science in particular, other avenues which lead to understanding there is a nearly indescribable level of fakery and deception at play. This is just one that jumps out as being somewhat easy to begin unravelling. All that's required is willingness to look into the right rabbit-holes. BUT Most people just Won't want to wake up from the dream.
But, you didn't answer my question though.

If you aim ahead, and if you hit the retro reflector, and the retro reflectors angle relative to the location on the surface of the earth where the pulse is emitted from isn't parallel, but angled in a way that the pulse is reflected back to the point it was emitted from, taking earth's rotation and the time it takes for the light to travel the total distance into account, is it then possible, also given the fact that the beam has a diameter of X km?

If yes, the question was: what angle does the retro reflector on the moon have relative to the surface of the earth? (and moons for that matter)
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Lord Dave on May 05, 2016, 01:39:52 PM
So here's why it works: Divergence.

This isn't a simple point to point, this is a cone.  Much like a flashlight, you can see from multiple angles. 
Plus, the rotation of the earth only changes the ANGLE the light needs to be seen from, not the location.  After all, even at 100km away, the point on the moon is still visible.  And, as I'm sure you're aware having stared at the moon for long periods of time, the view doesn't really change.  You don't see different shadows hour by hour because it's so far away that any shift in angle is irrelevant. 

So basically: You can see it cause it's spread out at an angle.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on May 05, 2016, 02:16:52 PM
At the equator, the rotational velocity is 1670km/h (http://image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poetry/ask/a10840.html), its highest rate anywhere on Earth.  Assuming a 2.5 second round trip, the detector will only have moved 1.16kms when the photons return from the moon, well within the 20km diameter of the light cone.

NB: I am fully admitting that I was wrong earlier.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Lord Dave on May 05, 2016, 03:00:16 PM
At the equator, the rotational velocity is 1670km/h (http://image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poetry/ask/a10840.html), its highest rate anywhere on Earth.  Assuming a 2.5 second round trip, the detector will only have moved 1.16kms when the photons return from the moon, well within the 20km diameter of the light cone.

NB: I am fully admitting that I was wrong earlier.

Yes but from lunar orbit, the earth spins at a much faster, apparent rate.  It has to get through a much wider arc of distance in the same time span.  Which I think is like 27km/s. 
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on May 05, 2016, 03:06:56 PM
At the equator, the rotational velocity is 1670km/h (http://image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poetry/ask/a10840.html), its highest rate anywhere on Earth.  Assuming a 2.5 second round trip, the detector will only have moved 1.16kms when the photons return from the moon, well within the 20km diameter of the light cone.

NB: I am fully admitting that I was wrong earlier.

Yes but from lunar orbit, the earth spins at a much faster, apparent rate.  It has to get through a much wider arc of distance in the same time span.  Which I think is like 27km/s.

I am not sure how that is relevant.  From the perspective of the observer on Earth, the light pulse takes 2.5 seconds to return and they will have moved 1.16kms around the Earth's axis.  Why do you think a change of FOR is required?
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Lord Dave on May 05, 2016, 03:19:51 PM
At the equator, the rotational velocity is 1670km/h (http://image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poetry/ask/a10840.html), its highest rate anywhere on Earth.  Assuming a 2.5 second round trip, the detector will only have moved 1.16kms when the photons return from the moon, well within the 20km diameter of the light cone.

NB: I am fully admitting that I was wrong earlier.

Yes but from lunar orbit, the earth spins at a much faster, apparent rate.  It has to get through a much wider arc of distance in the same time span.  Which I think is like 27km/s.

I am not sure how that is relevant.  From the perspective of the observer on Earth, the light pulse takes 2.5 seconds to return and they will have moved 1.16kms around the Earth's axis.  Why do you think a change of FOR is required?
You're right. 

Mystery solved.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 05, 2016, 07:38:34 PM
At the equator, the rotational velocity is 1670km/h (http://image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poetry/ask/a10840.html), its highest rate anywhere on Earth.  Assuming a 2.5 second round trip, the detector will only have moved 1.16kms when the photons return from the moon, well within the 20km diameter of the light cone.

NB: I am fully admitting that I was wrong earlier.
There are other velocities not being accounted for. For one, the earth is not only rotating, it is also orbiting - and this positional change is 108,000 km/h or about 30 km per second. Velocities cannot be added to light. The trajectory and return of the beam will always be relative to the exact spot it was emitted from at the instantaneous moment of emission. If it didn't, that would violate the laws of physics. You have to imagine viewing the whole setup from a position that is not in a rotating or orbiting reference frame. The retroreflector will bounce it back to where it was, not where it is.

EDIT: here is another animation more illustrative of the dynamics (one again, not to scale)
(http://s32.postimg.org/5cpwhto79/LLR_1.gif)


Setec Astronomy, please review the rules of the forum. Personal attacks are against the rules.

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=977.0
Noted, and my apologies. It won't happen again.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Lord Dave on May 06, 2016, 11:34:26 AM
This also makes the laser in your CD player impossible to play CDs.  The 1 mm space between the lens and the disk plus the movement of the Earth means everything is off by a few nano meters.  And, well, that's just too much.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on May 06, 2016, 02:31:21 PM
At the equator, the rotational velocity is 1670km/h (http://image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poetry/ask/a10840.html), its highest rate anywhere on Earth.  Assuming a 2.5 second round trip, the detector will only have moved 1.16kms when the photons return from the moon, well within the 20km diameter of the light cone.

NB: I am fully admitting that I was wrong earlier.
There are other velocities not being accounted for. For one, the earth is not only rotating, it is also orbiting - and this positional change is 108,000 km/h or about 30 km per second. Velocities cannot be added to light. The trajectory and return of the beam will always be relative to the exact spot it was emitted from at the instantaneous moment of emission. If it didn't, that would violate the laws of physics. You have to imagine viewing the whole setup from a position that is not in a rotating or orbiting reference frame. The retroreflector will bounce it back to where it was, not where it is.


I am exploring the issue surrounding the Earth's orbital velocity.  I will get back to this when I have something meaningful to say.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 06, 2016, 05:02:59 PM
This also makes the laser in your CD player impossible to play CDs.  The 1 mm space between the lens and the disk plus the movement of the Earth means everything is off by a few nano meters.  And, well, that's just too much.
It's too much because it threatens too many of the lies we've all been led to believe are true.
This is about the lunar distance which we are told is about 370,000 kilometers away. The earth has an orbital velocity of ~30 km per second which means the return signal ~2.5 seconds later will be off by at least 75 km.

If you are afraid of the implications of this fact, that is another problem entirely/

(http://s32.postimg.org/5cpwhto79/LLR_1.gif)
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Lord Dave on May 06, 2016, 05:41:12 PM
This also makes the laser in your CD player impossible to play CDs.  The 1 mm space between the lens and the disk plus the movement of the Earth means everything is off by a few nano meters.  And, well, that's just too much.
It's too much because it threatens too many of the lies we've all been led to believe are true.
This is about the lunar distance which we are told is about 370,000 kilometers away. The earth has an orbital velocity of ~30 km per second which means the return signal ~2.5 seconds later will be off by at least 75 km.

If you are afraid of the implications of this fact, that is another problem entirely/

(http://s32.postimg.org/5cpwhto79/LLR_1.gif)

No, the distance of a few nanometers is too much. 

But seriously, you just proved CDs, DVDs, and blu-rays don't work.
So, how do they work, if not by laser?
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: andruszkow on May 06, 2016, 06:22:14 PM


This also makes the laser in your CD player impossible to play CDs.  The 1 mm space between the lens and the disk plus the movement of the Earth means everything is off by a few nano meters.  And, well, that's just too much.
It's too much because it threatens too many of the lies we've all been led to believe are true.
This is about the lunar distance which we are told is about 370,000 kilometers away. The earth has an orbital velocity of ~30 km per second which means the return signal ~2.5 seconds later will be off by at least 75 km.

If you are afraid of the implications of this fact, that is another problem entirely/

(http://s32.postimg.org/5cpwhto79/LLR_1.gif)

Did you ever bother to check the angle of the reflector relative to earth? This is the third time I've asked you, and is pretty freaking relevant.

You assume the pulse is reflected in a tangent angle. It's not.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 06, 2016, 06:27:06 PM
But seriously, you just proved CDs, DVDs, and blu-rays don't work.
So, how do they work, if not by laser?
No, what was proved is the LLR cannot possibly work given the the scientific model of earth's motion.

CD's DO work, and they DO work by laser. You can buy one and operate it yourself (unlike an LLR experiment). What is going to be proved by this is something much bigger - that the modern scientific model of the Solar system, the motion of the earth, etc, must be wrong.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 06, 2016, 06:37:10 PM
Quote
(http://s32.postimg.org/5cpwhto79/LLR_1.gif)

Did you ever bother to check the angle of the reflector relative to earth?

Will you bother to understand that your question is irrelevant because the retroreflector is a corner cube array made to reflect a ray of light back at the exact same angle it entered the array?

http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/lrrr.html
Retroreflectors, or corner-cube prisms, are optical devices that return any incident light back in exactly the direction from which it came.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Lord Dave on May 06, 2016, 08:26:30 PM


This also makes the laser in your CD player impossible to play CDs.  The 1 mm space between the lens and the disk plus the movement of the Earth means everything is off by a few nano meters.  And, well, that's just too much.
It's too much because it threatens too many of the lies we've all been led to believe are true.
This is about the lunar distance which we are told is about 370,000 kilometers away. The earth has an orbital velocity of ~30 km per second which means the return signal ~2.5 seconds later will be off by at least 75 km.

If you are afraid of the implications of this fact, that is another problem entirely/

(http://s32.postimg.org/5cpwhto79/LLR_1.gif)

Did you ever bother to check the angle of the reflector relative to earth? This is the third time I've asked you, and is pretty freaking relevant.

You assume the pulse is reflected in a tangent angle. It's not.
It is.  The cubes have a 180 degree reflection.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Lord Dave on May 06, 2016, 08:28:24 PM
But seriously, you just proved CDs, DVDs, and blu-rays don't work.
So, how do they work, if not by laser?
No, what was proved is the LLR cannot possibly work given the the scientific model of earth's motion.

CD's DO work, and they DO work by laser. You can buy one and operate it yourself (unlike an LLR experiment). What is going to be proved by this is something much bigger - that the modern scientific model of the Solar system, the motion of the earth, etc, must be wrong.

No, it can't.
Do the math.  1 mm laser travel with the Earth's movement would make the laser hit several nanometers off from target, thus causing the reflection to be incorrect.  It can't work.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 06, 2016, 09:17:27 PM
But seriously, you just proved CDs, DVDs, and blu-rays don't work.
So, how do they work, if not by laser?
No, what was proved is the LLR cannot possibly work given the the scientific model of earth's motion.

CD's DO work, and they DO work by laser. You can buy one and operate it yourself (unlike an LLR experiment). What is going to be proved by this is something much bigger - that the modern scientific model of the Solar system, the motion of the earth, etc, must be wrong.

No, it can't.
Do the math.  1 mm laser travel with the Earth's movement would make the laser hit several nanometers off from target, thus causing the reflection to be incorrect.  It can't work.

What can't work is the LIES we are told about the LLR and Earth orbiting around the sun.

This is essentially what I wrote above and you even quoted it, but seem intent on ignoring it. What you're experiencing is called "cognitive dissonance" because what you've always believed about the earth, solar system, and universe is wrong and at some level you might be beginning to realize it.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Lord Dave on May 06, 2016, 10:09:45 PM
But seriously, you just proved CDs, DVDs, and blu-rays don't work.
So, how do they work, if not by laser?
No, what was proved is the LLR cannot possibly work given the the scientific model of earth's motion.

CD's DO work, and they DO work by laser. You can buy one and operate it yourself (unlike an LLR experiment). What is going to be proved by this is something much bigger - that the modern scientific model of the Solar system, the motion of the earth, etc, must be wrong.

No, it can't.
Do the math.  1 mm laser travel with the Earth's movement would make the laser hit several nanometers off from target, thus causing the reflection to be incorrect.  It can't work.

What can't work is the LIES we are told about the LLR and Earth orbiting around the sun.

This is essentially what I wrote above and you even quoted it, but seem intent on ignoring it. What you're experiencing is called "cognitive dissonance" because what you've always believed about the earth, solar system, and universe is wrong and at some level you might be beginning to realize it.

Why is this so difficult to grasp?  Do the same math with a laser on a CD player that you did on the moon.  Go on.  I mean, how can one laser work but another doesn't?  It doesn't make sense!
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 06, 2016, 11:07:46 PM
Why is this so difficult to grasp?  Do the same math with a laser on a CD player that you did on the moon.  Go on.  I mean, how can one laser work but another doesn't?  It doesn't make sense!
For the THIRD TIME, the fact that CD's, DVD's, and Blu-Ray players work is evidence that the earth is not in motion at 30 km per second as we are told. This is precisely because the math would indicate they could not work IF you continue to assume the heliocentric model is correct. That they do reliably function serves to falsify the heliocentric model - unless you know of a workable model for electromagnetism that would allow these devices to operate in a reference frame moving at 30 km per second (hint: there isn't one).

Please leave this thread if you're simply going to perseverate and sidestep the point, which is that the assumptions of the heliocentric model are provably false.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Lord Dave on May 07, 2016, 06:06:02 AM
Why is this so difficult to grasp?  Do the same math with a laser on a CD player that you did on the moon.  Go on.  I mean, how can one laser work but another doesn't?  It doesn't make sense!
For the THIRD TIME, the fact that CD's, DVD's, and Blu-Ray players work is evidence that the earth is not in motion at 30 km per second as we are told. This is precisely because the math would indicate they could not work IF you continue to assume the heliocentric model is correct. That they do reliably function serves to falsify the heliocentric model - unless you know of a workable model for electromagnetism that would allow these devices to operate in a reference frame moving at 30 km per second (hint: there isn't one).

Please leave this thread if you're simply going to perseverate and sidestep the point, which is that the assumptions of the heliocentric model are provably false.

....
So now the Earth isn't moving?
You... You just spent a week explaining that the llre doesn't work because the earth is moving.  Now you say it isn't?
So if the Earth isn't moving at 30km/s then the LLRE works.
If it is, then it won't.

So which is it?
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 07, 2016, 08:55:43 AM
So now the Earth isn't moving?
You... You just spent a week explaining that the llre doesn't work because the earth is moving.  Now you say it isn't?
So if the Earth isn't moving at 30km/s then the LLRE works.
If it is, then it won't.

So which is it?
It is neither - LLR is a LIE and a HOAX (please see thread title). It is its own internal inconsistencies which reveal it to be a Lie and a Hoax.

LLR claims to work within and validate to high precision specific parameters of the heliocentric solar system model.

I have been showing you that the details of the heliocentric model - IF we assume they are completely true - actually make the LLR experiment an absolute impossibility - ergo, a Lie and a Hoax.

If those heliocentric details are Not true, that also makes LLR a Lie and a Hoax (because it claims they are true).

The reason it is paradoxical and doesn't make sense is because LLR is a lie that fits within the tangled web of heliocentrism, space travel, and the Moon Landing (which LLR is used as "proof" of). The whole thing is a evil Fallen system of lies and deception.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on May 07, 2016, 07:45:11 PM
So after looking in to the matter, I learned that the orbital velocity of the Earth is irrelevant. It may matter for a body outside of the Earth-Moon system but this motion is undetectable within the Earth-Moon FOR.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Lord Dave on May 07, 2016, 08:06:07 PM
So after looking in to the matter, I learned that the orbital velocity of the Earth is irrelevant. It may matter for a body outside of the Earth-Moon system but this motion is undetectable within the Earth-Moon FOR.

It is?
So light just keeps going as though the Earth isn't going around the sun or moving through the galaxy?
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 07, 2016, 08:10:35 PM
So after looking in to the matter, I learned that the orbital velocity of the Earth is irrelevant. It may matter for a body outside of the Earth-Moon system but this motion is undetectable within the Earth-Moon FOR.
I'd love to know who's feeding you these lies, because both bodies are said to be in orbital motion but light will travel in a straight line. From the moon's POV, the earth is at position A with respect to the background stars when the laser pulse hits the retroreflector, and it is sent back in exactly that same direction, but when the light finally returns to position A 2.5 seconds later, the location on the earth the light came from is no longer there, but at least 75 km distant.

There is absolutely no way around this positional change if we are to believe the heliocentric model is correct.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: TheTruthIsOnHere on May 07, 2016, 11:11:50 PM


This also makes the laser in your CD player impossible to play CDs.  The 1 mm space between the lens and the disk plus the movement of the Earth means everything is off by a few nano meters.  And, well, that's just too much.
It's too much because it threatens too many of the lies we've all been led to believe are true.
This is about the lunar distance which we are told is about 370,000 kilometers away. The earth has an orbital velocity of ~30 km per second which means the return signal ~2.5 seconds later will be off by at least 75 km.

If you are afraid of the implications of this fact, that is another problem entirely/

(http://s32.postimg.org/5cpwhto79/LLR_1.gif)

Did you ever bother to check the angle of the reflector relative to earth? This is the third time I've asked you, and is pretty freaking relevant.

You assume the pulse is reflected in a tangent angle. It's not.

What is the angle then? And please tell my why exactly Apollo astronauts put the mirror there, and do you think they had the tools necessary to place the mirror at the exact angle necessary to overcome the incredible amount of variables to make it useful?

They certainly didn't put it there to see how far away the moon is, apparently we already knew that before the missions somehow since we went there a few times successfully.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 08, 2016, 12:03:48 AM


This also makes the laser in your CD player impossible to play CDs.  The 1 mm space between the lens and the disk plus the movement of the Earth means everything is off by a few nano meters.  And, well, that's just too much.
It's too much because it threatens too many of the lies we've all been led to believe are true.
This is about the lunar distance which we are told is about 370,000 kilometers away. The earth has an orbital velocity of ~30 km per second which means the return signal ~2.5 seconds later will be off by at least 75 km.

If you are afraid of the implications of this fact, that is another problem entirely/

(http://s32.postimg.org/5cpwhto79/LLR_1.gif)

Did you ever bother to check the angle of the reflector relative to earth? This is the third time I've asked you, and is pretty freaking relevant.

You assume the pulse is reflected in a tangent angle. It's not.

What is the angle then? And please tell my why exactly Apollo astronauts put the mirror there, and do you think they had the tools necessary to place the mirror at the exact angle necessary to overcome the incredible amount of variables to make it useful?

For what it's worth, it is said the corner cube array is oriented "approximately" towards earth, however due to variables such as libration it has a typical misalignment of 7 degrees
(see http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/0710.0890v2.pdf section 1.3)

The only effect retro-reflector misalignment will have is a reduction in its efficiency at collecting and returning incoming light - which, since it is reflecting off corner cube prisms, as opposed to a mirror plane, is only sent back in the exact same direction it came from, towards a spot the detector has moved some 75 km away from in the interim 2.5 seconds since it was emitted.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on May 08, 2016, 05:05:09 PM
So after looking in to the matter, I learned that the orbital velocity of the Earth is irrelevant. It may matter for a body outside of the Earth-Moon system but this motion is undetectable within the Earth-Moon FOR.

It is?
So light just keeps going as though the Earth isn't going around the sun or moving through the galaxy?

From an observer stationary relative to the Earth-Moon they would see light travel in a straight line, that is, proceed directly to the retroreflector and be reflected straight back. To do otherwise would be to impart a tangential velocity of 30km/s to the light which, as pointed out by Setec, is in violation of SR.

Someone with motion relative to the Earth orbit around the sun, would have a different perception of the light path. I am incapable of calculating this because of would require various Lorentz transformation, Lorentz contractions and time dilation to be applied.

It is not a simple problem to say the least.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 08, 2016, 06:17:49 PM
From an observer stationary relative to the Earth-Moon they would see light travel in a straight line, that is, proceed directly to the retroreflector and be reflected straight back. To do otherwise would be to impart a tangential velocity of 30km/s to the light which, as pointed out by Setec, is in violation of SR.
You are explaining it completely wrong. Why do you think they claim to aim the laser ahead of the target on the moon in the first place?

The background stars are moving, which the heliocentric model explains as being due to the earth moving - both rotating around its axis and revolving around the sun. It models the moon as moving as well, rotating around it's axis and orbiting around the earth. You can't simply ignore this dynamic just so you can pretend they're both perfectly still and the reflected path back to the detector is a straight line that light could follow when it is actually a curve that light could not follow.

I am incapable of calculating

You got that right. The first true and correct statement you've made in this thread! None of the orbital velocities are anywhere near c, and are in fact less than a miniscule fraction of 1% of it, and besides has nothing to do with the trajectory light takes as observed from a frame of reference that is NOT in motion (unlike the earth-moon according to heliocentrism).
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Lord Dave on May 08, 2016, 06:44:50 PM
From an observer stationary relative to the Earth-Moon they would see light travel in a straight line, that is, proceed directly to the retroreflector and be reflected straight back. To do otherwise would be to impart a tangential velocity of 30km/s to the light which, as pointed out by Setec, is in violation of SR.
You are explaining it completely wrong. Why do you think they claim to aim the laser ahead of the target on the moon in the first place?

The background stars are moving, which the heliocentric model explains as being due to the earth moving - both rotating around its axis and revolving around the sun. It models the moon as moving as well, rotating around it's axis and orbiting around the earth. You can't simply ignore this dynamic just so you can pretend they're both perfectly still and the reflected path back to the detector is a straight line that light could follow when it is actually a curve that light could not follow.

I am incapable of calculating

You got that right. The first true and correct statement you've made in this thread! None of the orbital velocities are anywhere near c, and are in fact less than a miniscule fraction of 1% of it, and besides has nothing to do with the trajectory light takes as observed from a frame of reference that is NOT in motion (unlike the earth-moon according to heliocentrism).

But as we've already established (and you've confirmed) the distance the earth moves in that time frame is only 1km.  So if it fires the laser off so it will hit the reflector.  Once the laser hits, the Earth has moved .5km.  Then the laser returns and another .5km has passed under it.  But with the 20km footprint given by the reflectors (8 arcseconds) the detector catches the light.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 08, 2016, 07:55:24 PM
But as we've already established (and you've confirmed) the distance the earth moves in that time frame is only 1km.
No, we've estabished that the earth moves in its orbital path at 30 km per second. So in the time it takes for the light to return to the point it was emitted from the detector setup will be at least 75 km away.

Remember?
(http://s32.postimg.org/5cpwhto79/LLR_1.gif)
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on May 08, 2016, 08:44:02 PM
From an observer stationary relative to the Earth-Moon they would see light travel in a straight line, that is, proceed directly to the retroreflector and be reflected straight back. To do otherwise would be to impart a tangential velocity of 30km/s to the light which, as pointed out by Setec, is in violation of SR.
You are explaining it completely wrong. Why do you think they claim to aim the laser ahead of the target on the moon in the first place?

Because the Moon is moving with respect to the Earth.

Quote
The background stars are moving, which the heliocentric model explains as being due to the earth moving - both rotating around its axis and revolving around the sun. It models the moon as moving as well, rotating around it's axis and orbiting around the earth. You can't simply ignore this dynamic just so you can pretend they're both perfectly still and the reflected path back to the detector is a straight line that light could follow when it is actually a curve that light could not follow.

The light path taken by the light emitted from the Earth to the moon is straight from that FOR. It goes straight to the moon and straight back. For an observer on Venus, for example, the light pulse would be Doppler shifted to preserve lights constant velocity and the light would likely appear in a shape other than a Euclidean straight line. I think your problem is that you are assuming light travels in a straight line with respect to some sort of preferred FOR. There is no such thing.

Quote
I am incapable of calculating

You got that right. The first true and correct statement you've made in this thread! None of the orbital velocities are anywhere near c, and are in fact less than a miniscule fraction of 1% of it, and besides has nothing to do with the trajectory light takes as observed from a frame of reference that is NOT in motion (unlike the earth-moon according to heliocentrism).

Back to ad Homs. Well, alas for you, relativistic effects occur at very small fractions of c, they are just not apparent without extremely sensitive measuring instruments. GPS deals with relativistic effects regularly, for example.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 08, 2016, 09:01:16 PM
From an observer stationary relative to the Earth-Moon they would see light travel in a straight line, that is, proceed directly to the retroreflector and be reflected straight back. To do otherwise would be to impart a tangential velocity of 30km/s to the light which, as pointed out by Setec, is in violation of SR.
You are explaining it completely wrong. Why do you think they claim to aim the laser ahead of the target on the moon in the first place?

Because the Moon is moving with respect to the Earth.

Quote
The background stars are moving, which the heliocentric model explains as being due to the earth moving - both rotating around its axis and revolving around the sun. It models the moon as moving as well, rotating around it's axis and orbiting around the earth. You can't simply ignore this dynamic just so you can pretend they're both perfectly still and the reflected path back to the detector is a straight line that light could follow when it is actually a curve that light could not follow.

The light path taken by the light emitted from the Earth to the moon is straight from that FOR. It goes straight to the moon and straight back. For an observer on Venus, for example, the light pulse would be Doppler shifted to preserve lights constant velocity and the light would likely appear in a shape other than a Euclidean straight line. I think your problem is that you are assuming light travels in a straight line with respect to some sort of preferred FOR. There is no such thing.

Quote
I am incapable of calculating

You got that right. The first true and correct statement you've made in this thread! None of the orbital velocities are anywhere near c, and are in fact less than a miniscule fraction of 1% of it, and besides has nothing to do with the trajectory light takes as observed from a frame of reference that is NOT in motion (unlike the earth-moon according to heliocentrism).

Back to ad Homs. Well, alas for you, relativistic effects occur at very small fractions of c, they are just not apparent without extremely sensitive measuring instruments. GPS deals with relativistic effects regularly, for example.

You do not understand relativistic effects or even how to do the calculations, as you said yourself. You are arguing from a position of total ignorance and you admit you lack the capability to perform any calculations at all to quantify what you're saying.

I don't see the point in your replying to this thread and attempting to be part of a discussion - unless your aim is only to be a troll and obfuscate - when you clearly demonstrate an unwillingness to conceptually or mathematically quantify or qualify any of your statements.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on May 08, 2016, 09:28:41 PM
Considering you have treated this problem as a classical problem, then tried to work in SR where it served you, I am not sure why you think you can be on a high horse.

I understand relativistic effects and I consulted a couple of astronomers regarding the principles in the discussion. Hence my ability to reason through this problem. If you decide to concede the argument that is fine, thanks for your time.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 08, 2016, 09:48:40 PM
Considering you have treated this problem as a classical problem, then tried to work in SR where it served you, I am not sure why you think you can be on a high horse.

I understand relativistic effects and I consulted a couple of astronomers regarding the principles in the discussion. Hence my ability to reason through this problem. If you decide to concede the argument that is fine, thanks for your time.

Ok, clearly you are simply trolling and attempting to obfuscate - and note you have not once bothered to calculate, quantify, or provide any source for your claims.

Please read the rules, particularly where it states "If you have run out of valid contributions, simply do not post."

I am also asking you to stop posting in this thread. "If another member makes it clear to you that your behaviour toward them is making them uncomfortable, take that as a signal to back off. If you continue to harass that member after being made aware of this fact, you may be officially warned by forum staff."

To return to the subject, the LLR is a proven LIE and HOAX because the incident light returned by a corner cube array will be ~75 km off from the location it was emitted from 2.5 seconds earlier because earth's orbital velocity is 30 km per second.

(http://s32.postimg.org/5cpwhto79/LLR_1.gif)

The absence of any meaningful criticism relating to this point is an excellent indicator that the LLR experiment is indeed a total LIE and HOAX.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on May 08, 2016, 10:14:37 PM
You haven't sourced any of your claims either, so not sure what your issue is. I have meaningfully criticized your assertion and you are taking your ignorance regarding SR as my failing. This will not work out in the long run for you. When on the Earth you treat the Earth as unmoving for the purposes of which frame to prefer. Therefore, when on Earth, the laser pulse ignores it's orbital velocity.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 09, 2016, 12:36:31 AM
Sources are the overwhelmingly obvious parameters of the heliocentric model. Its unfortunate you are not capable of making sense out of it, and must lie to try and cover up the truth. I'm sure you find that to be very frustrating, but I cannot do anything to fix your problems.

You have to figure it out on your own. Good luck.

Maybe this will help you: How to Think
http://www.wikihow.com/Think

Earth's orbital velocity is 30 km per second.
http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/factsheet/earthfact.html
https://www.google.com/search?q=Earth+orbital+velocity&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

LLR details are in the PDF previously linked
http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/0710.0890v2.pdf

Lunar retroreflectors - Corner cube prisms only send light back in the exact direction it came from
http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/lrrr.html

Motion of emitter or detector causes Doppler shift in frequency (wavelength) but never changes the path or velocity of light (of course if you actually understood relativity or Lorentz invariance you would know this)
http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/light/doppler.html
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on May 09, 2016, 01:42:11 AM
More Ad Homs; sorry you are so frustrated. Please tell me what I have mentioned that indicates Lorentz variance to you.

I will make this simpler. In the case we are discussing, the Earth is an inertial reference frame. In that FOR, light will travel in a straight line. From a different FOR, where the Earth is non-inertial, then that light pulse will no longer travel in a straight line as it will appear to be under a fictitious force.

If you cannot address this, then you have nothing to add to the conversation.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 09, 2016, 02:07:51 AM
The earth is a non-inertial reference frame.
the Earth is an inertial reference frame

Nonsense. A rotating, revolving earth is a non-inertial reference frame. Any reference frame in which the earth is regarded as "fixed" is non-inertial. You fail at even understanding what an inertial reference frame is.

If you are to be taken at all seriously, you have to come up with a specific objection to one of the relevant facts (according to heliocentrism and LLR experiment) that result in the LLR experiment being totally impossible. These facts are:

1. Earth is orbiting around the sun at ~30 km per second
2. Laser is aimed, at an offset (to account for motion during light-speed delay), at corner cube prism array.
3. Light takes ~1.25 seconds to traverse the distance between earth and moon.
4. Corner cube prisms on the moon return light back in exactly the same direction it came from.

From these facts the unavoidable conclusion is that the spot light is returned to ~2.5 seconds later will miss the telescope and detector by ~75 km due to the earth's movement along it's orbital path during the roundtrip light time.

(http://s32.postimg.org/5cpwhto79/LLR_1.gif)

Whether you only pretend to not understand this, or are genuinely incapable of understanding it, is irrelevant. If all you can do is troll and mock the truth, there is honestly no point in regarding you as anything more than an idiot. That's not an attack, it is a simple statement of fact.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on May 09, 2016, 02:28:48 AM
The earth is a non-inertial reference frame.
the Earth is an inertial reference frame

Nonsense. A rotating, revolving earth is a non-inertial reference frame. Any reference frame in which the earth is regarded as "fixed" is non-inertial. You fail at even understanding what an inertial reference frame is.

I always mix up those terms. Regardless my position is clear and you still have not addressed it. Semantics do not dismiss it.

Quote
If you are to be taken at all seriously, you have to come up with a specific objection to one of the relevant facts (according to heliocentrism and LLR experiment) that result in the LLR experiment being totally impossible. These facts are:

1. Earth is orbiting around the sun at ~30 km per second
2. Laser is aimed, at an offset (to account for motion during light-speed delay), at corner cube prism array.
3. Light takes ~1.25 seconds to traverse the distance between earth and moon.
4. Corner cube prisms on the moon return light back in exactly the same direction it came from.

I do not disagree with any of these points.

Quote
From these facts the unavoidable conclusion is that the spot light is returned to ~2.5 seconds later will miss the telescope and detector by ~75 km due to the earth's movement along it's orbital path during the roundtrip light time.

Incorrect. Light will travel in a straight line, from the perspective of the observer on Earth.

Quote
Whether you only pretend to not understand this, or are genuinely incapable of understanding it, is irrelevant. If all you can do is troll and mock the truth, there is honestly no point in regarding you as anything more than an idiot. That's not an attack, it is a simple statement of fact.

You are welcome to your opinion. It does not change the fact that you are wrong. Anyway, I had my claims confirmed by a professor of Astrophysics at a UK university. I am not going to say any more than that because I do not have his permission to post his identity on a public forum. I was in touch with him via stackexchange.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 09, 2016, 03:44:31 AM
It does not change the fact that you are wrong. Anyway, I had my claims confirmed by a professor of Astrophysics at a UK university. I am not going to say any more than that because I do not have his permission to post his identity on a public forum. I was in touch with him via stackexchange.

You should post his name because he is LYING and should be exposed rather than you acting as his mouthpiece.

With regards to moving reference frames and light. Look up what a light-clock is, you'll notice it uses a MIRROR.
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_clock
Can you work out what happens if the mirror is replaced with a RETRO-REFLECTOR, such as is said to be on the moon?
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on May 09, 2016, 12:30:25 PM
It does not change the fact that you are wrong. Anyway, I had my claims confirmed by a professor of Astrophysics at a UK university. I am not going to say any more than that because I do not have his permission to post his identity on a public forum. I was in touch with him via stackexchange.

You should post his name because he is LYING and should be exposed rather than you acting as his mouthpiece.

Right. You make such a compelling reason to do so.

Quote
With regards to moving reference frames and light. Look up what a light-clock is, you'll notice it uses a MIRROR.
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_clock
Can you work out what happens if the mirror is replaced with a RETRO-REFLECTOR, such as is said to be on the moon?

Did you know that light only travel in straight lines and at a constant velocity in an inertial reference frame?  Remember the Earth isn't?

I thought you weren't going to bother with me anymore? 
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 09, 2016, 07:30:05 PM

Did you know that light only travel in straight lines and at a constant velocity in an inertial reference frame?  Remember the Earth isn't?
Remember that you are the one who claims it is, and I had to correct you that, according to Heiiocentric model, it isn't?

Here, I will remind you since you can't even seem to tell the truth about your own previous words:

I will make this simpler. In the case we are discussing, the Earth is an inertial reference frame. In that FOR, light will travel in a straight line.
And..
Light will travel in a straight line, from the perspective of the observer on Earth.

Those are your words, not mine. Since you are now saying that what you have said is false, while trying to pretend it was me who said your words, you are basically a pathological liar with nothing to say worth listening to.

Quote
I thought you weren't going to bother with me anymore?
As long as you keep posting in my thread and telling lies, I am going to reiterate what is true.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on May 09, 2016, 09:17:09 PM

Did you know that light only travel in straight lines and at a constant velocity in an inertial reference frame?  Remember the Earth isn't?
Remember that you are the one who claims it is, and I had to correct you that, according to Heiiocentric model, it isn't?

Here, I will remind you since you can't even seem to tell the truth about your own previous words:

I will make this simpler. In the case we are discussing, the Earth is an inertial reference frame. In that FOR, light will travel in a straight line.

The reference to an inertial reference frame was an admitted mistake.  Don't quote mine, its bad form.

Quote
And..
Light will travel in a straight line, from the perspective of the observer on Earth.

The statement I made does not mean that every light beam in a non-inertial reference frame necessarily does not travel in a straight line.  Also, light can appear to travel in a straight line in one FOR (i.e. an observer on Earth) and in a curved line to another (i.e. an observer on Venus).

Quote
Those are your words, not mine. Since you are now saying that what you have said is false, while trying to pretend it was me who said your words, you are basically a pathological liar with nothing to say worth listening to.

Pathological liar?  Hmmm...

Quote
Quote
I thought you weren't going to bother with me anymore?
As long as you keep posting in my thread and telling lies, I am going to reiterate what is true.

I am waiting for the first iteration.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 09, 2016, 11:26:36 PM
Rama Set, you don't have any idea what you're talking about. It has been proven you don't know what you're talking about. You are a liar and have been obsessively commenting on my thread for days despite not having anything meaningful to add to the discussion, but only lies and obfuscation. You show no signs of being able to engage in intelligent discussion because you constantly change your story, have no sources at all to back anything you say, other than telling lies that some un-named entity elsewhere on the Internet, who you say is a UK astronomer, somehow agrees with you - despite your now admitting that the basis for your original "objections", which said astronomer corroborated, were actually completely without merit.

Anyone with a working brain who reads your "contributions" to this thread will come to the same conclusion.

Sorry, but I cannot "argue" with someone whose demeanor is that of an unresponsive troll who cannot engage in logical conversation. At this point I'm no longer reading your comments and will only reiterate the following facts whenever you reply: (note: this is a clear signal that you, "Rama Set", need to stop obsessing over and posting replies to this thread)

ACCORDING TO HELIOCENTRIC THEORY and the LUNAR LASER RANGING EXPERIMENT:
1. Earth is orbiting around the sun at ~30 km per second. https://www.google.com/#q=earth+orbital+velocity
2. Laser is aimed toward the lunar retro-reflector at an offset to account for motion during the time it takes light to traverse the distance. http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/0710.0890v2.pdf
3. Light takes ~1.25 seconds to traverse the distance between the laser on earth and the retro-reflector on the moon. http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/0710.0890v2.pdf
4. The retro-reflector is composed of corner cube prisms that return light back in exactly the same direction from which it came. http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/lrrr.html

From these facts the unavoidable conclusion is that the laser light returned by the retro-reflector ~2.5 seconds later will be centered on where the laser was when the light was emitted - BUT this location will be ~75 km away from the current position of the laser/detector apparatus because the earth will have moved 2.5 * 30 km in the time it takes light to make the round-trip. Because the return beam is claimed to have a 10 km radius the telescope and detector will be at least 65 km outside of the area the light returns to, and, hence, be impossible for the experiment to ever work.

Animation to illustrate the motions involved. (note: this is for illustrative purposes and is not to scale)
(http://s32.postimg.org/5cpwhto79/LLR_1.gif)
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on May 09, 2016, 11:46:02 PM
All you have to do is look me up on stack exchange to see the conversations I had. Astronomers and physicists do not agree with your position. They support the conclusion I eventually came to, with some missteps along the way.

I encourage you to learn about relativity a little more as I endeavored to through the course of this thread, which I have you to thank for. You will eventually understand that your assessment of the LLR is incorrect, I hope.

Good luck and try to stay away from insulting other people when you disagree with them. It is bad form.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 09, 2016, 11:54:34 PM
Sorry, but I cannot "argue" with someone whose demeanor is that of an unresponsive troll who cannot engage in logical conversation. At this point I'm no longer reading replies made by "Rama Set" and will only reiterate the following facts whenever he does reply: (note: this is a clear signal that you, "Rama Set", need to stop obsessing over and posting replies to this thread)

ACCORDING TO HELIOCENTRIC THEORY and the LUNAR LASER RANGING EXPERIMENT:
1. Earth is orbiting around the sun at ~30 km per second. https://www.google.com/#q=earth+orbital+velocity
2. Laser is aimed toward the lunar retro-reflector at an offset to account for motion during the time it takes light to traverse the distance. http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/0710.0890v2.pdf
3. Light takes ~1.25 seconds to traverse the distance between the laser on earth and the retro-reflector on the moon. http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/0710.0890v2.pdf
4. The retro-reflector is composed of corner cube prisms that return light back in exactly the same direction from which it came. http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/lrrr.html

From these facts the unavoidable conclusion is that the laser light returned by the retro-reflector ~2.5 seconds later will be centered on where the laser was when the light was emitted - BUT this location will be ~75 km away from the current position of the laser/detector apparatus because the earth will have moved 2.5 * 30 km in the time it takes light to make the round-trip. Because the return beam is claimed to have a 10 km radius the telescope and detector will be at least 65 km outside of the area the light returns to, and, hence, be impossible for the experiment to ever work.

Animation to illustrate the motions involved. (note: this is for illustrative purposes and is not to scale)
(http://s32.postimg.org/5cpwhto79/LLR_1.gif)
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on May 10, 2016, 04:24:28 AM
I suppose he won't want to read up url=http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/96503/does-the-velocity-of-a-light-source-influence-the-light]a brief discussion[/url] that elucidates how his assertion about light traveling only in straight lines wrt some mythical reference frame that does not exist, is just plain wrong.

The path taken by a laser pulse emitted from the Earth towards the moon would appear straight for all intents and purposes, because none of the accelerations that the Earth experiences are of a particularly high magnitude.

Of course, Setec Astronomy, won't respond to that, he will likely just copy and paste his previous post.

Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 10, 2016, 05:07:48 AM
Sorry, but I cannot "argue" with someone whose demeanor is that of an unresponsive troll who cannot engage in logical conversation. At this point I'm no longer reading replies made by "Rama Set" and will only reiterate the following facts whenever he does reply: (note: this is a clear signal that you, "Rama Set", need to stop obsessing over and posting replies to this thread)

ACCORDING TO HELIOCENTRIC THEORY and the LUNAR LASER RANGING EXPERIMENT:
1. Earth is orbiting around the sun at ~30 km per second. https://www.google.com/#q=earth+orbital+velocity
2. Laser is aimed toward the lunar retro-reflector at an offset to account for motion during the time it takes light to traverse the distance. http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/0710.0890v2.pdf
3. Light takes ~1.25 seconds to traverse the distance between the laser on earth and the retro-reflector on the moon. http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/0710.0890v2.pdf
4. The retro-reflector is composed of corner cube prisms that return light back in exactly the same direction from which it came. http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/lrrr.html

From these facts the unavoidable conclusion is that the laser light returned by the retro-reflector ~2.5 seconds later will be centered on where the laser was when the light was emitted - BUT this location will be ~75 km away from the current position of the laser/detector apparatus because the earth will have moved 2.5 * 30 km in the time it takes light to make the round-trip. Because the return beam is claimed to have a 10 km radius the telescope and detector will be at least 65 km outside of the area the light returns to, and, hence, be impossible for the experiment to ever work.

Animation to illustrate the motions involved. (note: this is for illustrative purposes and is not to scale)
(http://s32.postimg.org/5cpwhto79/LLR_1.gif)
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on May 10, 2016, 05:16:14 AM
I was exactly right.  Anyway, it seems clear to me at least, as I have gone through the material in this thread, that Setec has created some sort of blend of Special Relativity and Galilean Relativity to suit his needs.  Hopefully he will poke around a bit more about what SR really says about light paths, instead of spamming the same comment again.  Anyone else have anything to add?
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 10, 2016, 05:22:01 AM
Sorry, but I cannot "argue" with someone whose demeanor is that of an unresponsive troll who cannot engage in logical conversation. At this point I'm no longer reading replies made by "Rama Set" and will only reiterate the following facts whenever he does reply: (note: this is a clear signal that you, "Rama Set", need to stop obsessing over and posting replies to this thread) The number of replies "Rama Set" has made to this thread AFTER receiving this notice reveals the absurd extent of his perseveration dysfunction. Clearly he is in need of medication.

ACCORDING TO HELIOCENTRIC THEORY and the LUNAR LASER RANGING EXPERIMENT:
1. Earth is orbiting around the sun at ~30 km per second. https://www.google.com/#q=earth+orbital+velocity
2. Laser is aimed toward the lunar retro-reflector at an offset to account for motion during the time it takes light to traverse the distance. http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/0710.0890v2.pdf
3. Light takes ~1.25 seconds to traverse the distance between the laser on earth and the retro-reflector on the moon. http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/0710.0890v2.pdf
4. The retro-reflector is composed of corner cube prisms that return light back in exactly the same direction from which it came. http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/lrrr.html

From these facts the unavoidable conclusion is that the laser light returned by the retro-reflector ~2.5 seconds later will be centered on where the laser was when the light was emitted - BUT this location will be ~75 km away from the current position of the laser/detector apparatus because the earth will have moved 2.5 * 30 km in the time it takes light to make the round-trip. Because the return beam is claimed to have a 10 km radius the telescope and detector will be at least 65 km outside of the area the light returns to, and, hence, be impossible for the experiment to ever work.

Animation to illustrate the motions involved. (note: this is for illustrative purposes and is not to scale)
(http://s32.postimg.org/5cpwhto79/LLR_1.gif)
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Setec Astronomy on May 10, 2016, 05:46:07 AM
Seeing as how I've received a "warning" from TFES for spamming my own thread, I am pretty sure "Rama Set" is an alt of the guy with the squid hat.

What else does anyone honestly expect when the rules actively encourage deception by freely allowing alt accounts.

I'm not making any more replies to this thread, nor wasting any more time on this absord controlled opposition forum full of satan worshippers bound for the Pit. It's coming much sooner than you fools think. For those of you with a brain, you've seen the truth. For the rest, enjoy the eternal torment of the company of your father the devil.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: andruszkow on May 10, 2016, 06:24:03 AM
Seeing as how I've received a "warning" from TFES for spamming my own thread, I am pretty sure "Rama Set" is an alt of the guy with the squid hat.

What else does anyone honestly expect when the rules actively encourage deception by freely allowing alt accounts.

I'm not making any more replies to this thread, nor wasting any more time on this absord controlled opposition forum full of satan worshippers bound for the Pit. It's coming much sooner than you fools think. For those of you with a brain, you've seen the truth. For the rest, enjoy the eternal torment of the company of your father the devil.
I want to thank you personally for showing all of us how darwin was right about evolution.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Lord Dave on May 10, 2016, 06:27:59 AM
Wow, ranma got him to delete his account.


Congrats, man.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Jura-Glenlivet on May 10, 2016, 07:33:38 AM

Yes, but at the expense of his immortal soul, what a guy!
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on May 10, 2016, 12:26:45 PM
Wow, ranma got him to delete his account.


Congrats, man.

The best was all I had to do was be honest....


Yes, but at the expense of his immortal soul, what a guy!

...and this.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Username on May 26, 2016, 05:26:34 AM

Note that not one single description of the LLR experiments mentions taking this distance offset into account.

But lets go ahead and pretend they do and the laser is aimed ahead with the appropriate offset.

There is still a problem. A BIG and insurmountable problem!




Beam Spread
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on May 26, 2016, 01:48:16 PM
This party has been over for a while.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: rabinoz on October 16, 2016, 09:00:23 AM
This party has been over for a while.
I know the party's long over, the guests gone home and all the "dead marines" recycled long ago,

but, while I firmly believe that the laser reflectors on the moon are real, I think Setec Astronomy was not that far wrong.


Note that not one single description of the LLR experiments mentions taking this distance offset into account.

But lets go ahead and pretend they do and the laser is aimed ahead with the appropriate offset.

There is still a problem. A BIG and insurmountable problem!


No, probably no "BIG and insurmountable problem!"

I think that he was on the right track with his arguments in
To return to the subject, the LLR is a proven LIE and HOAX because the incident light returned by a corner cube array will be ~75 km off from the location it was emitted from 2.5 seconds earlier because earth's orbital velocity is 30 km per second.

(http://s32.postimg.org/5cpwhto79/LLR_1.gif)

The absence of any meaningful criticism relating to this point is an excellent indicator that the LLR experiment is indeed a total LIE and HOAX.

I hope this is a "meaningful criticism relating to this point"!

In his diagram he shows the moon in the "full moon" position, but in performing the experiment the aim was to have both the moon and the observatory in shade to avoid unnecessary extraneous light.

Now the best time for this is probably at 25% or 75% moon phase, where the moon is aligned with the the earth's orbit around the sun.
At these points half the moon we see is in shade, and the observatory can be in shade.

Now the only velocity to consider is from the earth's rotation, about 400 m/'s at 30°N, so no problem.

I have not seen this point discused,  and I might be completely wrong - would be the time.


Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on October 16, 2016, 11:45:17 AM
I think that is what I contended, that Earth's orbital velocity is irrelevant.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rekt on February 08, 2017, 02:05:45 PM
Welp, just to add, the reflector is angled. Did you account for THAT in your calculations? It's not going to be a straight shot.
(http://lunar.colorado.edu/publicfiles/tiny/images/apollo_11_retroreflectors.jpg)
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on February 08, 2017, 03:37:49 PM
With corner reflectors the angle of incidence doesn't matter. The incidence and reflection angles are identical. So, yes I did think about that.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rekt on February 08, 2017, 04:44:20 PM
With corner reflectors the angle of incidence doesn't matter. The incidence and reflection angles are identical. So, yes I did think about that.
I know. I'm just adding some info to the debate that may not have been considered. Great to see that you did. Although there is the fact that there is a lot of scattered light reflecting off the moon, it might change the strength of the reflected light. Your receiver may also get some sun reflection from the LRR
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on February 08, 2017, 07:11:30 PM
With corner reflectors the angle of incidence doesn't matter. The incidence and reflection angles are identical. So, yes I did think about that.
I know. I'm just adding some info to the debate that may not have been considered. Great to see that you did. Although there is the fact that there is a lot of scattered light reflecting off the moon, it might change the strength of the reflected light. Your receiver may also get some sun reflection from the LRR

If I were taking the readings, then I would take a baseline reading and then measure the jump in intensity.  Afterwards, you would want to rule out any other possible noise sources, like solar flare or something like that.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rekt on February 09, 2017, 12:15:00 AM
With corner reflectors the angle of incidence doesn't matter. The incidence and reflection angles are identical. So, yes I did think about that.
I know. I'm just adding some info to the debate that may not have been considered. Great to see that you did. Although there is the fact that there is a lot of scattered light reflecting off the moon, it might change the strength of the reflected light. Your receiver may also get some sun reflection from the LRR

If I were taking the readings, then I would take a baseline reading and then measure the jump in intensity.  Afterwards, you would want to rule out any other possible noise sources, like solar flare or something like that.
Yep. But "Muh conspiracies"e
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: tete on June 06, 2017, 11:30:34 PM
When you understand these two points ... you understand why the laser beam comes back to earth

(1) I am sure you are aware that the moon does rotate. (Its rotation happens to be 27.32 days, and its orbit around Earth is 27 days)
and that
(2) We, from Earth, see the same side of the moon all the time.

"Sychronous Rotation" is one of the things that makes our moon so special. The moon's rate of rotation nearly matches its orbital period. This amazing fact means as it rotates around Earth, it too is rotating just fast enough to keep its "Face" facing earth. You might have heard of the Dark side of the Moon and that we never see it. Well its true we have never seen the Dark side of the Moon from Earth, the First Time was the Apollo Missions and their pictures they recorded.

http://www.space.com/24871-does-the-moon-rotate.html
http://discovermagazine.com/2014/dec/2-ask-discover
https://www.universetoday.com/19699/does-the-moon-rotate/

This is why a laser beam shot at the moon comes straight back because the moon is always facing us.
or Google it ... nice try though
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: kromeader on June 15, 2017, 07:52:49 AM
hi Rama Set,

Sagnac & Michelson Morley 's experiments have proven that the light is indipendent from the inerzial system where it's traleving through refuting the einstein's special relativity theory therefore the Setec Astronomy's questions are absolutelly legits. congrats ;-)
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on June 15, 2017, 11:58:45 AM
hi Rama Set,

Sagnac & Michelson Morley 's experiments have proven that the light is indipendent from the inerzial system where it's traleving through refuting the einstein's special relativity theory therefore the Setec Astronomy's questions are absolutelly legits. congrats ;-)

You can't spell "inertial", so I am not sure why I should take your word for this. I consulted actual physicists on the topic.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: kromeader on June 15, 2017, 12:29:54 PM
You can't spell "inertial", so I am not sure why I should take your word for this.

Yes it's Latin... the language of science..  as you know :-X

I consulted actual physicists on the topic.

then WHY they refuse to correct or erase this public topic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagnac_effect
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on June 15, 2017, 12:40:13 PM
You can't spell "inertial", so I am not sure why I should take your word for this.

Yes it's Latin... the language of science..  as you know :-X

Not for a few hundred years, but carry on.

Quote
I consulted actual physicists on the topic.

then WHY they refuse to correct or erase this public topic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagnac_effect

Oh Wikipedia! Now I'm definitely ignoring the actual physicists I consulted.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: kromeader on June 15, 2017, 07:06:15 PM
Oh Wikipedia! Now I'm definitely ignoring the actual physicists I consulted.

So you and your "actual physicists" prefer ignorance spreads rather than intervening .. wonderful LoL
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on June 15, 2017, 07:14:28 PM
Oh Wikipedia! Now I'm definitely ignoring the actual physicists I consulted.

So you and your "actual physicists" prefer ignorance spreads rather than intervening .. wonderful LoL

Just because you believe SR has been falsified by a misinterpretation of the Sagnac effect and a one-time, never reproducible result in the Michaelson-Morley experiment, doesn't make you correct.

But please tell me more about how SR has been falsified.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: kromeader on June 16, 2017, 08:16:12 AM
But please tell me more about how SR has been falsified.

In the aforesaid link you have everything you need
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on June 16, 2017, 11:32:44 AM
Therefore and somesuch.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: kromeader on June 19, 2017, 11:17:37 PM

Just because you believe SR has been falsified by a misinterpretation of the Sagnac effect and a one-time, never reproducible result in the Michaelson-Morley experiment, doesn't make you correct.


The Sagnac experiment have 2 fases:
1 - 0 m/s plate rotation (stationary), Results: No interference found
2 - 2 m/s plate rotation (moving), Results: Detected interferences!!

This means that the light is independent from any inertial system then the SR is invalidated... sorry XD

The Michaelson-Morley experiment is the GREATEST (misinterpretated experiment) of all times but it's always reproducible

The Michaelson-Gale experiment is the right interpretation of the Michaelson-Morley experiment and it proves that the Earth is STATIONARY....
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on June 20, 2017, 10:44:53 AM
When the interference is detected in a Sagnac experiment you have a rotating frame which is... Non-inertial!  Looks like SR is not even relevant. Fortunately GR can explain the result.

Tell me, how the MM experiment should be interpreted. When you consider the observations of astronauts and satellites of the Earth's motion I think you must reconsider your silly conclusions.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: kromeader on June 20, 2017, 12:45:18 PM
When the interference is detected in a Sagnac experiment you have a rotating frame which is... Non-inertial!  Looks like SR is not even relevant. Fortunately GR can explain the result.

When the interference is NOT detected in the Sagnac experiment (when stationary) you have the rotating EARTH!!! which is even non-inertial system then ALSO in this case the SR is not even relevant. Un-Fortunately for you the GR theory is only crap.. xD

Tell me, how the MM experiment should be interpreted. When you consider the observations of astronauts and satellites of the Earth's motion I think you must reconsider your silly conclusions.

In the M-Gale experiment has been simulated the earth's angular-speed and in THAT case the interferences were DETECTED!!! (as born coordinates confirms) then if the EARTH is rotating the M-m experiments MUST have wrong results... try to research in the right way please....
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on June 20, 2017, 02:18:24 PM
When the interference is detected in a Sagnac experiment you have a rotating frame which is... Non-inertial!  Looks like SR is not even relevant. Fortunately GR can explain the result.

When the interference is NOT detected in the Sagnac experiment (when stationary) you have the rotating EARTH!!! which is even non-inertial system then ALSO in this case the SR is not even relevant. Un-Fortunately for you the GR theory is only crap.. xD

Sorry this is tough for you. The Earth is it rotating with respect to the detector since their motion is identical, hence it is inertial. If you can't properly analyze an FOR, perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to discard the work of actual scientists.

Tell me, how the MM experiment should be interpreted. When you consider the observations of astronauts and satellites of the Earth's motion I think you must reconsider your silly conclusions.

In the M-Gale experiment has been simulated the earth's angular-speed and in THAT case the interferences were DETECTED!!! (as born coordinates confirms) then if the EARTH is rotating the M-m experiments MUST have wrong results... try to research in the right way please....
[/quote]

Considering how fundamentally and grievously flawed your thinking on Sagnac was, I'm not looking in to this yet.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: kromeader on June 20, 2017, 06:35:54 PM

The Earth is it rotating with respect to the detector since their motion is identical, hence it is inertial. If you can't properly analyze an FOR, perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to discard the work of actual scientists.


You wrong!!! The detector motion is ALWAYS different to the system motion where it is (You don't consider the motion of the earth around the sun it's equal to 30km/s and 1°/day as angular-speed) for this reasons it cant exists a "pure" inertial system in nature relativistically speaking (that's why the SR has been created).. the actual scientists work to cover up not for discover ... please wakeup
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on June 20, 2017, 06:54:39 PM
Alright, I wont bother trying to change your mind. Good luck out there.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Tahj on August 08, 2017, 04:19:04 AM

Light from the moon's surface takes ~1.3 seconds to reach earth, so any given spot a telescope is aimed at is actually behind the true position by about 34.32 kilometers (1.3 * 26.4) due to lightspeed delay. If a laser is aimed there, it will also take ~1.3 seconds to reach the moon's surface and miss the spot it was aimed at by double that amount - 68.64 kilometers.

Note that not one single description of the LLR experiments mentions taking this distance offset into account.

Quick Google search finds a number of papers that include the distance offset

http://arizona.openrepository.com/arizona/bitstream/10150/288113/4/azu_td_7401993_sip1_w.pdf

See pages 26-27
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: freeemind on October 10, 2017, 11:34:45 PM
When the interference is detected in a Sagnac experiment you have a rotating frame which is... Non-inertial!  Looks like SR is not even relevant. Fortunately GR can explain the result.

When the interference is NOT detected in the Sagnac experiment (when stationary) you have the rotating EARTH!!! which is even non-inertial system then ALSO in this case the SR is not even relevant. Un-Fortunately for you the GR theory is only crap.. xD

Tell me, how the MM experiment should be interpreted. When you consider the observations of astronauts and satellites of the Earth's motion I think you must reconsider your silly conclusions.

In the M-Gale experiment has been simulated the earth's angular-speed and in THAT case the interferences were DETECTED!!! (as born coordinates confirms) then if the EARTH is rotating the M-m experiments MUST have wrong results... try to research in the right way please....

Rotational Velocity IS a relevant factor but, with Diffraction and barring other encumbrances, returning photons at the detectors should still be possible.  The MAJOR factors which I believe to be insurmountable to the LLR experiments would be the Orbital Velocity of Earth around the Sun (30km/s), the Velocity of the Solar System through the Milky Way (220km/s) and the Velocity of the Milky Way through the Universe (600km/s).  If ANY of these velocities are even CLOSE to correct...  the laser pulse will never even hit the Moon at all unless the Moon is positioned either in front or behind the Earth relative to the direction of travel when the pulse is fired.  Even then, we would get dramatically different distancing results based on which of those 2 positions the Moon were occupying at the time.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on October 10, 2017, 11:40:38 PM
When the interference is detected in a Sagnac experiment you have a rotating frame which is... Non-inertial!  Looks like SR is not even relevant. Fortunately GR can explain the result.

When the interference is NOT detected in the Sagnac experiment (when stationary) you have the rotating EARTH!!! which is even non-inertial system then ALSO in this case the SR is not even relevant. Un-Fortunately for you the GR theory is only crap.. xD

Tell me, how the MM experiment should be interpreted. When you consider the observations of astronauts and satellites of the Earth's motion I think you must reconsider your silly conclusions.

In the M-Gale experiment has been simulated the earth's angular-speed and in THAT case the interferences were DETECTED!!! (as born coordinates confirms) then if the EARTH is rotating the M-m experiments MUST have wrong results... try to research in the right way please....

Rotational Velocity IS a relevant factor but, with Diffraction and barring other encumbrances, returning photons at the detectors should still be possible.  The MAJOR factors which I believe to be insurmountable to the LLR experiments would be the Orbital Velocity of Earth around the Sun (30km/s), the Velocity of the Solar System through the Milky Way (220km/s) and the Velocity of the Milky Way through the Universe (600km/s).  If ANY of these velocities are even CLOSE to correct...  the laser pulse will never even hit the Moon at all unless the Moon is positioned either in front or behind the Earth relative to the direction of travel when the pulse is fired.  Even then, we would get dramatically different distancing results based on which of those 2 positions the Moon were occupying at the time.

Unfortunately you are not analyzing the FoR properly. The light emitted from the Earth will carry all the vectors that contribute to the Earth's motion.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: freeemind on October 13, 2017, 08:23:57 PM
When the interference is detected in a Sagnac experiment you have a rotating frame which is... Non-inertial!  Looks like SR is not even relevant. Fortunately GR can explain the result.

When the interference is NOT detected in the Sagnac experiment (when stationary) you have the rotating EARTH!!! which is even non-inertial system then ALSO in this case the SR is not even relevant. Un-Fortunately for you the GR theory is only crap.. xD

Tell me, how the MM experiment should be interpreted. When you consider the observations of astronauts and satellites of the Earth's motion I think you must reconsider your silly conclusions.

In the M-Gale experiment has been simulated the earth's angular-speed and in THAT case the interferences were DETECTED!!! (as born coordinates confirms) then if the EARTH is rotating the M-m experiments MUST have wrong results... try to research in the right way please....

Rotational Velocity IS a relevant factor but, with Diffraction and barring other encumbrances, returning photons at the detectors should still be possible.  The MAJOR factors which I believe to be insurmountable to the LLR experiments would be the Orbital Velocity of Earth around the Sun (30km/s), the Velocity of the Solar System through the Milky Way (220km/s) and the Velocity of the Milky Way through the Universe (600km/s).  If ANY of these velocities are even CLOSE to correct...  the laser pulse will never even hit the Moon at all unless the Moon is positioned either in front or behind the Earth relative to the direction of travel when the pulse is fired.  Even then, we would get dramatically different distancing results based on which of those 2 positions the Moon were occupying at the time.

Unfortunately you are not analyzing the FoR properly. The light emitted from the Earth will carry all the vectors that contribute to the Earth's motion.

You say FoR..  Is that Frame of Reference?  Please clarify.  Are you implying that a light pulse fired from Earth to the Moon will have a travel path similar to that of a ball thrown sideways from a moving vehicle (albeit without the vertical arc)?  That would imply that light has mass, would it not?
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on October 14, 2017, 01:01:32 AM
Yes, apologies. FoR means frame of reference. For an observer on Earth, light would take a straight line path from the emitter to the moon. For an observer in a different perspective the light may indeed appear to curve. In this case, the acceleration would be coordinate acceleration though, and not proper acceleration and does not require anything other than a non-inertial FoR.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: freeemind on October 15, 2017, 05:41:05 AM
Yes, apologies. FoR means frame of reference. For an observer on Earth, light would take a straight line path from the emitter to the moon. For an observer in a different perspective the light may indeed appear to curve. In this case, the acceleration would be coordinate acceleration though, and not proper acceleration and does not require anything other than a non-inertial FoR.

I appreciate the clarification.  I will explore this further as you have piqued my interest! :-B
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: freeemind on October 21, 2017, 12:08:05 AM
Yes, apologies. FoR means frame of reference. For an observer on Earth, light would take a straight line path from the emitter to the moon. For an observer in a different perspective the light may indeed appear to curve. In this case, the acceleration would be coordinate acceleration though, and not proper acceleration and does not require anything other than a non-inertial FoR.

It is apparent that a beam of light will bend exactly as a body would if thrown horizontally with a velocity equal to that of light...  but only in a gravitational
field.  In the 240k mile (approx) vacuum of space between Earth and the Moon, there would be no horizontal travel arc at all.  Therefore, in the 1.3 sec it takes to reach the Moon, the Moon will have traveled 780km through space (using 600k km/s speed of Milky Way).  Thoughts?
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on October 21, 2017, 11:53:23 AM
First, the path of light can bend between any two noninertial FORs. Second, the Earth is hurtling through the Milky Way at precisely the same speed as the moon, the sun and all the other objects under the sun's gravitational influence and can therefore be ignored.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Lord Dave on October 21, 2017, 06:16:00 PM
Yeah, I mean, if photons ignored Frame of Reference stuff like that, then any laser you fired would always be off.
Title: Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
Post by: Rama Set on October 21, 2017, 11:34:57 PM
Yeah, I mean, if photons ignored Frame of Reference stuff like that, then any laser you fired would always be off.

Exactly, the speed of light is constant, not the vector.