[The_Face_of_the_Earth]

Calling all Flat Earth experts. I am new to this whole FE thing so I just have one question that I can't seem to find an answer to. This summer I was lucky enough to be able to view totality of the Great American Eclipse. The only thing I can't figure out is if in the FEM the moon can not come in between the earth and the sun, what was covering up the sun? Is it the same shadow object that causes lunar eclipses? I'm just curious.

[Curious Squirrel]

Calling all Flat Earth experts. I am new to this whole FE thing so I just have one question that I can't seem to find an answer to. This summer I was lucky enough to be able to view totality of the Great American Eclipse. The only thing I can't figure out is if in the FEM the moon can not come in between the earth and the sun, what was covering up the sun? Is it the same shadow object that causes lunar eclipses? I'm just curious.

You won't find much traction here for anything other than the moon causing the Solar Eclipse. The moon phases are generally regarded as happening because of the moon bobbing up and down in it's orbit. Thus at the time of the solar eclipse (new moon phase) the moon is at it's lowest and can easily pass between the sun and the Earth below. I've only seen one other FE hypothesizer express the idea there was a shadow object at work with a solar eclipse, and the idea was largely rejected by the rest of the FE community.

[mtnman]

The totality was an awesome experience wasn't it!

In general I think we allow the FE faithful to answer these questions, but it seems that frequently they don't, which makes me wonder about the purpose of this site.

Some make the argument that the moon's orbit around the pole sometimes takes it below the sun's orbit allowing eclipses. But this would mean that the two orbits sometimes cross implying that they could collide.

But whatever explanation you get, be sure to ask how it also explains lunar eclipses when a round shadow can be see crossing the face of the moon.

[Tom Bishop]

The Solar Eclipse occurs when the Moon passes in front of the Sun and the observer. The Lunar Eclipse occurs when a body known as the Shadow Object passes between the Sun and the Moon.

https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Lunar_Eclipse

[mtnman]

Lunar response

The Solar Eclipse occurs when the Moon passes in front of the Sun and the observer. The Lunar Eclipse occurs when a body known as the Shadow Object passes between the Sun and the Moon.

https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Lunar_Eclipse

What empirical evidence do you have for this object? If is exists, it would have to periodically block our view of other objects (sun, stars, planets). How can its effects only be revealed during an eclipse?

[mtnman]

Solar response

The Solar Eclipse occurs when the Moon passes in front of the Sun and the observer. The Lunar Eclipse occurs when a body known as the Shadow Object passes between the Sun and the Moon.

https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Lunar_Eclipse

Your wiki animations show the sun and moon having the same orbital diameters. If they orbit at the same diameter from the uni-polar center and the same height, there would be a possibility of a collision.

Maybe they orbit at the same diameter but a different altitude (moon lower.)  With the moon orbiting once every ~28 days and the sun once a day, the sun would then pass over the moon once a day. Shouldn't some part of the Earth see an eclipse each day?

[Tom Bishop]

What empirical evidence do you have for this object?

The fact that there is a shadow on the moon is evidence that there is something to cast that shadow.

The Wiki article asserts that this may be a new object, or it may be a known object.

If is exists, it would have to periodically block our view of other objects (sun, stars, planets). How can its effects only be revealed during an eclipse?

The Shadow Object is thought to be a satellite of the sun that is always on the "day side" of the earth. We don't see any celestial bodies near the sun. Everything is washed out by the sun's light. Even when we see the moon in the daytime sky, we can only see it when it is far from the sun where daylight is not as intense.

Further question. Your wiki animations show the sun and moon having the same orbital diameters. If they orbit at the same diameter from the uni-polar center and the same height, there would be a possibility of a collision. Maybe they orbit at the same diameter but a different altitude (moon lower.)  With the moon orbiting once every ~28 days and the sun once a day, the sun would then pass over the moon once a day. Shouldn't some part of the Earth see an eclipse each day?

That animation is just for illustrative purposes and does not reflect actual movements or positions.

[mtnman]

The fact that there is a shadow on the moon is evidence that there is something to cast that shadow.

Agreed, spoiler alert, it's the Earth!

The Wiki article asserts that this may be a new object, or it may be a known object.

Your statement was 

a body known as the Shadow Object

When a new user asked a question your answer was definitive. When someone scratches the surface of that answer, you're saying it might be known or it might be new. Flat Earth science changes fast.

If is exists, it would have to periodically block our view of other objects (sun, stars, planets). How can its effects only be revealed during an eclipse?

The Shadow Object is thought to be a satellite of the sun that is always on the "day side" of the earth. We don't see any celestial bodies near the sun. Everything is washed out by the sun's light. Even when we see the moon in the daytime sky, we can only see it when it is far from the sun where daylight is not as intense.

This is not accurate. With proper instruments and filters the surface of the sun and objects transiting its surface are commonly photographed. Mercury and Venus regularly transit the surface of the sun (from our viewpoint). A Google image search will provide numerous examples. I have personally looked at sunspots through a telescope with a solar filter.

But getting back to your statement... If the mystery object is a satellite of the sun that means it orbits the sun, but you say it is always on the day side of Earth. How could this be? If it orbits the sun it should sometimes be on the far side of the sun and it should be visible just before sunrise or after sunset.

That animation is just for illustrative purposes and does not reflect actual movements or positions.

Perhaps the wiki should have more disclaimers. FE believers frequently refer readers to the wiki for your view on the facts of the world, but what is the use of that when on the other hand you tell people things there are just for illustrative purposes and can't be taken as representations of fact?

[StinkyOne]

What empirical evidence do you have for this object?

The fact that there is a shadow on the moon is evidence that there is something to cast that shadow.

The Wiki article asserts that this may be a new object, or it may be a known object.

If is exists, it would have to periodically block our view of other objects (sun, stars, planets). How can its effects only be revealed during an eclipse?

The Shadow Object is thought to be a satellite of the sun that is always on the "day side" of the earth. We don't see any celestial bodies near the sun. Everything is washed out by the sun's light. Even when we see the moon in the daytime sky, we can only see it when it is far from the sun where daylight is not as intense.

Further question. Your wiki animations show the sun and moon having the same orbital diameters. If they orbit at the same diameter from the uni-polar center and the same height, there would be a possibility of a collision. Maybe they orbit at the same diameter but a different altitude (moon lower.)  With the moon orbiting once every ~28 days and the sun once a day, the sun would then pass over the moon once a day. Shouldn't some part of the Earth see an eclipse each day?

That animation is just for illustrative purposes and does not reflect actual movements or positions.

Got any proof of this or is it more made up stuff that you have to patch onto your "theory" to make it match reality? (that's rhetorical - we both know your side is just making nonsense up)

You state we can't see anything close to the sun. How is it that we can see Mercury? What about Venus? The 'morning star' is easily visible. If the sun is shining on this shadow object, why isn't it illuminated? Why doesn't it ever block out the sun? These are easy to figure out solutions - please provide a workable orbital pattern for the moon, sun, and this shadow object. You're making a claim - prove it.

[mtnman]

At the very least we should seem some areas of stars blacked out by this mystery object.

I'm not even going to start talking about how there would have to be detectable gravitational effects from this undiscovered moon/satellite/whatever. Come to think of it, if it is a satellite of the sun, wouldn't that qualify it as a planet?

[mtnman]

A note for the original poster. This is an example of flat Earth thought processes. They hold the belief in a flat Earth to be their most sacrosanct principle.

Instead of drawing conclusion from facts and observations, the flatness is given from the start. Then reasons and explanations must be molded to somehow fit that conclusion.

In the lunar eclipse we are discussing here. Note that neither the wiki nor Tom's comments have a mention of observations, sightings, etc. Their flat model(s) can't explain the sun casting the Earth's shadow on the moon. And there is a shadow on the moon. Therefore, there must be an unobserved thing in space is casting the shadow.

[3DGeek]

The Shadow Object is thought to be a satellite of the sun that is always on the "day side" of the earth. We don't see any celestial bodies near the sun. Everything is washed out by the sun's light. Even when we see the moon in the daytime sky, we can only see it when it is far from the sun where daylight is not as intense.

Oooh!   I'd hoped someone would talk about the mysterious shadow object...and it's Tom!  That's a bonus!

So let me see if I have this right.

This "thing" orbits the sun...and you're saying that it does so sufficiently closely that it's always in the daytime sky.   So you're saying that it would NEVER block out stars or planets because the only time it would get between stars/planets and us would be during daylight when we can't see the stars/planets anyway.

Is that a correct summary?

So I have lot's more excitingly difficult questions here:

a) Why doesn't it block other objects such as Venus which is clearly visible in the daytime sky either just around dawn or just around dusk?  If Venus were mysteriously to vanish from the sky - I'm pretty sure someone would have mentioned it!

b) Why doesn't it block out stars during a midday-ish total solar eclipse when it would DEFINITELY be above the horizon and the sky is dark enough to see stars?  There ought to be a huge circle of blotted out stars...and there aren't.

c) Why does it never block out the sun itself if it's orbiting around the sun?

d) If it's close to the sun and casts a HUGE shadow over the moon during a lunar eclipse (the shadow is MUCH larger than the moon), then this object has to be much MUCH bigger than the sun.  Not 30 miles across - but (rough estimate) between 300 and 500 miles across.   We'd be able to see something that gigantic blotting out stars LONG after sunset and LONG before dawn.

e) During a lunar eclipse - the shadow cast by this object doesn't completely cover the moon - it's MUCH bigger than that - so the light blocked by the shadow object would also prevent sunlight from reaching naked-eye-visible outer-planets - Mars, Jupiter and Saturn...anything that's lit by the sun that happened to be close enough to the moon during a partial lunar ecllipse.    While you might argue that stars shine by their own light - we know that the planets show clear phases - even when viewed through binoculars...so they must be lit by the sun just as the moon is.   So if (say) Mars were next to the moon during a lunar eclipse - it OUGHT to be blotted out by the shadow of the shadow object...but it's clearly not...to the contrary - it's a "full Mars" for the same reason that the moon is always (nearly) full during a lunar eclipse.

...OK - I have LOTS of other problems with "The Shadow Object" - but that's enough typing for one day.

Any ideas Tom?   Magic perspective tying light rays into pretzels again?

[mtnman]

I expect Tom was already done with this thread, but we shall see.

[Tom Bishop]

The Wiki article asserts that this may be a new object, or it may be a known object.

Your statement was 

a body known as the Shadow Object

When a new user asked a question your answer was definitive. When someone scratches the surface of that answer, you're saying it might be known or it might be new. Flat Earth science changes fast.

I know what my statement was. The body which creates the shadow is the Shadow Object. That is definitive. Whatever casts the shadow is called the Shadow Object. What is not definitive is what the Shadow Object is.

This is not accurate. With proper instruments and filters the surface of the sun and objects transiting its surface are commonly photographed. Mercury and Venus regularly transit the surface of the sun (from our viewpoint). A Google image search will provide numerous examples. I have personally looked at sunspots through a telescope with a solar filter.

Mercury and Venus disappear immediately after transiting the sun, even with a solar filter.

But getting back to your statement... If the mystery object is a satellite of the sun that means it orbits the sun, but you say it is always on the day side of Earth. How could this be? If it orbits the sun it should sometimes be on the far side of the sun and it should be visible just before sunrise or after sunset.

It would only be visible if it is transiting the sun. If it is in the vicinity of the sun, but not transiting its surface, it is invisible.

We do not see the sun from its side, however. When the sun sets, we are not looking at the sun from its side in Flat Earth Theory, just as we never see the moon from its side. The rotation of objects in long distance perspective may be limited. See this discussion on the rotation of the moon.

[Tom Bishop]

Oooh!   I'd hoped someone would talk about the mysterious shadow object...and it's Tom!  That's a bonus!

So let me see if I have this right.

This "thing" orbits the sun...and you're saying that it does so sufficiently closely that it's always in the daytime sky.   So you're saying that it would NEVER block out stars or planets because the only time it would get between stars/planets and us would be during daylight when we can't see the stars/planets anyway.

Is that a correct summary?

Correct.

So I have lot's more excitingly difficult questions here:

a) Why doesn't it block other objects such as Venus which is clearly visible in the daytime sky either just around dawn or just around dusk?  If Venus were mysteriously to vanish from the sky - I'm pretty sure someone would have mentioned it!

Venus is not seen when it is close to the sun, it disappears into the brightness of the sky just like the moon does and anything else.

b) Why doesn't it block out stars during a midday-ish total solar eclipse when it would DEFINITELY be above the horizon and the sky is dark enough to see stars?  There ought to be a huge circle of blotted out stars...and there aren't.

Who says that all stars are visible during a Solar Eclipse?

What makes you think that this Shadow Object would need to be a "huge"?

c) Why does it never block out the sun itself if it's orbiting around the sun?

We never see the sun from its side, for the same reason we never see the moon from its side.

d) If it's close to the sun and casts a HUGE shadow over the moon during a lunar eclipse (the shadow is MUCH larger than the moon), then this object has to be much MUCH bigger than the sun.  Not 30 miles across - but (rough estimate) between 300 and 500 miles across.   We'd be able to see something that gigantic blotting out stars LONG after sunset and LONG before dawn.

Does a giant hand puppet shadow projected onto a wall mean that a giant hand must be creating that shadow?

e) During a lunar eclipse - the shadow cast by this object doesn't completely cover the moon - it's MUCH bigger than that - so the light blocked by the shadow object would also prevent sunlight from reaching naked-eye-visible outer-planets - Mars, Jupiter and Saturn...anything that's lit by the sun that happened to be close enough to the moon during a partial lunar ecllipse.

You are assuming that the sun, moon, shadow object and planets are all on the same plane.

[mtnman]

I know what my statement was. The body which creates the shadow is the Shadow Object. That is definitive. Whatever casts the shadow is called the Shadow Object. What is not definitive is what the Shadow Object is.

...

Mercury and Venus disappear immediately after transiting the sun, even with a solar filter.

...

It would only be visible if it is transiting the sun. If it is in the vicinity of the sun, but not transiting its surface, it is invisible.

Ok, so it's definitely a shadow object. An object that casts a shadow. An unknown, never directly observed planet that has never been seen blocking the view of any other object in the sky, including the sun which it orbits. Where is your empirical evidence? Beyond just a shadow.

You say it would be visible if transiting the sun. When has this been recorded?

Mercury and Venus can be seen in transit with a filter. Post/pre transit, perhaps not. But they are also visible before sunrise and after sunset. Why is this not the case with the shadow object/planet.

The order I learned was sun, Mercury, Venus, Earth. Where does the shadow planet orbit, within the orbit of Mercury or between the Earth and Venus. Does it orbit on the same plane as the other inner planets?

Are all the world's astronomers conspiring to hide it? I've never heard mention of it. And it's gravitational effects would have to be observed on the other inner planets.

[StinkyOne]

I know what my statement was. The body which creates the shadow is the Shadow Object. That is definitive. Whatever casts the shadow is called the Shadow Object. What is not definitive is what the Shadow Object is.

...

Mercury and Venus disappear immediately after transiting the sun, even with a solar filter.

...

It would only be visible if it is transiting the sun. If it is in the vicinity of the sun, but not transiting its surface, it is invisible.

Ok, so it's definitely a shadow object. An object that casts a shadow. An unknown, never directly observed planet that has never been seen blocking the view of any other object in the sky, including the sun which it orbits. Where is your empirical evidence? Beyond just a shadow.

You say it would be visible if transiting the sun. When has this been recorded?

Mercury and Venus can be seen in transit with a filter. Post/pre transit, perhaps not. But they are also visible before sunrise and after sunset. Why is this not the case with the shadow object/planet.

The order I learned was sun, Mercury, Venus, Earth. Where does the shadow planet orbit, within the orbit of Mercury or between the Earth and Venus. Does it orbit on the same plane as the other inner planets?

Are all the world's astronomers conspiring to hide it? I've never heard mention of it. And it's gravitational effects would have to be observed on the other inner planets.

Honestly, how a grown man who, BTW, demands excessive evidence for even the most basic assertions, can believe in a "shadow object" that has no observational evidence is beyond me. Tom, if it orbits so close to the sun that it is obscured by the glare, it would have to be roughly as large as the sun to cover the moon in shadow. If it was smaller, we would see a penumbra cast on the moon. Alsot, if it is that close to the sun, why is it not illuminated? Why doesn't it block the sun any other times?

[mtnman]

I get the impression that after he explained "there's a shadow object" we were supposed to say thanks for the explanation and move on to something else.

None of this stuff stands up to even a shallow examination.

[mtnman]

I look forward to empirical evidence of this shadow object you and your wiki claim explains lunar eclipses. As a reminder...

Empirical evidence IS positive evidence. It is the most powerful evidence you can have. You keep trying to convince us of illusions and such, but you seem to have a hard time actually demonstrating your wild claims.

Our standard of evidence is just fine. The person with the claim provides the evidence. You are expected to defend your claims.

[3DGeek]

So I have lot's more excitingly difficult questions here:

a) Why doesn't it block other objects such as Venus which is clearly visible in the daytime sky either just around dawn or just around dusk?  If Venus were mysteriously to vanish from the sky - I'm pretty sure someone would have mentioned it!

Venus is not seen when it is close to the sun, it disappears into the brightness of the sky just like the moon does and anything else.

We can see Venus transiting the sun - a simple, improvised pinhole camera allows you to see Venus as a black dot in front of the sun.

b) Why doesn't it block out stars during a midday-ish total solar eclipse when it would DEFINITELY be above the horizon and the sky is dark enough to see stars?  There ought to be a huge circle of blotted out stars...and there aren't.

Who says that all stars are visible during a Solar Eclipse?

What makes you think that this Shadow Object would need to be a "huge"?

Google the phrase: "stars visible during 2017 eclipse" - and you'll see approximately half a million hits - mostly from the estimated 5 million people who saw it -
 and some large number of people who are eclipse experts explaining what would be seen during the eclipse.  Yeah - stars and planets are quite visible during the minutes of totality of a total eclipse.   In fact, the famous first ever confirmation of Einsteins' theory of relativity came from measuring the position of a star during a total eclipse.

If stars were "missing" that would be expected to be visible - you could be REALLY sure that an astronomer or someone else who was familiar with the skies would have mentioned it during one of the 635 total eclipses that have happened over the past thousand years.   If that had happened then the existence of the shadow object would be an accepted part of mainstream science...but it's not.  There appears to be no record of anyone seeing this immense, mysterious dark circle hiding the stars.

Why does the shadow object need to be huge.  Well, as anyone who has seen a lunar eclipse will tell you, you see the edge of an obviously large shadow being cast over the moon.  You can see from the evident curvature of the shadow that it's MUCH bigger than the moon.  Now, if (as you claim) the shadow object is close to the sun then it has to be larger than the sun in order to cast a fairly hard-edged "umbral" shadow that's larger than the moon.  If the shadow object was smaller, it would need to be much closer to the moon than it is to the sun (as indeed it is in RET).  A small shadow caster, close to the sun would produce a VERY soft penumbral shadow...and that's not what we see.

I'll try to get around to drawing you a diagram...but it's late and tomorrow is Thanksgiving.

c) Why does it never block out the sun itself if it's orbiting around the sun?

We never see the sun from its side, for the same reason we never see the moon from its side.

I don't see the relevance of that remark.

d) If it's close to the sun and casts a HUGE shadow over the moon during a lunar eclipse (the shadow is MUCH larger than the moon), then this object has to be much MUCH bigger than the sun.  Not 30 miles across - but (rough estimate) between 300 and 500 miles across.   We'd be able to see something that gigantic blotting out stars LONG after sunset and LONG before dawn.

Does a giant hand puppet shadow projected onto a wall mean that a giant hand must be creating that shadow?

No - but the hand has to be bigger than the light source or else the shadow will be very soft-edged...blurry.   The shadow of the Earth...er "shadow object" is quite sharp - so either the object is close to the moon - or close to the light source AND larger than it.

e) During a lunar eclipse - the shadow cast by this object doesn't completely cover the moon - it's MUCH bigger than that - so the light blocked by the shadow object would also prevent sunlight from reaching naked-eye-visible outer-planets - Mars, Jupiter and Saturn...anything that's lit by the sun that happened to be close enough to the moon during a partial lunar ecllipse.

You are assuming that the sun, moon, shadow objects and planets are all on the same plane.

Well, the sun, moon and shadow object have to be in an almost exact straight line in order for a lunar eclipse to happen - and if that is the case then any single planet forms a plane with those three objects lying on one edge and the planet defining the orientation of the plane.   So, yeah - they're all in the same plane - by definition. Again, I don't see the relevance of that comment.

And while you're pondering those:

f) Why does the moon turn that gorgeous shade of orange/red as it approaches totality in a lunar eclipse?