Gravity
« on: October 09, 2017, 08:41:04 PM »
If the Earth is flat, wouldn't gravity pull you towards the center of mass of the Earth, which, if you are near the edge, would not pull you perpendicular to the ground?

Re: Gravity
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2017, 08:45:42 PM »
If the Earth is flat, wouldn't gravity pull you towards the center of mass of the Earth, which, if you are near the edge, would not pull you perpendicular to the ground?

Disc Earth doesn't have gravity but substitutes Universal Acceleration: https://wiki.tfes.org/Universal_Acceleration

In the other hypothesis the Earth is infinite and gravity does exist, but since the Earth is a finite thickness it's evenly spread across the globe.

Both use 'Celestial Gravitation' to some degree to create the gravity variance that can be measured across Earth: https://wiki.tfes.org/Celestial_Gravitation

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Re: Gravity
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2017, 06:43:38 PM »
If the Earth is flat, wouldn't gravity pull you towards the center of mass of the Earth, which, if you are near the edge, would not pull you perpendicular to the ground?

In some other post, I pointed out that the FE'ers really have four options for "what is gravity":

1) Infinite disk earth with gravity.
2) Infinite disk earth with Universal Acceleration.
3) Finite disk earth with gravity.
4) Finite disk earth with Universal Acceleration.

The folks here at TFES.org seem mostly to be agreed on (2).   Personally, I think they'd be better off with (1).

The problem you describe would indeed be an enormous problem with (3) - so as far as I can tell, the "finite-flat-earth" people either haven't thought about it - or are going with (4).

Option (2) has problems though.  For UA to work would require an infinite energy source...and would either violate the law of conservation of momentum - or would require the earth to be sloughing off material from the underside at some prodigious rate as it accelerates.

So if *I* was an FE'er - I'd be going with option (1)...but all four approaches have problems with the variability of gravity over the Earth's surface (greater at poles than equator and less on top of tall mountains)...and falls apart when you consider tides.

A VERY few FE'ers claim that effect that we call "gravity" is caused by air pressure pushing down on things - but even their fellow FE'ers find that funny.  After all, if you put something under a bell jar and pump all of the air out, the object doesn't float.   So that's a bust.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Re: Gravity
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2017, 07:25:49 PM »
If the Earth is flat, wouldn't gravity pull you towards the center of mass of the Earth, which, if you are near the edge, would not pull you perpendicular to the ground?

In some other post, I pointed out that the FE'ers really have four options for "what is gravity":

1) Infinite disk earth with gravity.
2) Infinite disk earth with Universal Acceleration.
3) Finite disk earth with gravity.
4) Finite disk earth with Universal Acceleration.

The folks here at TFES.org seem mostly to be agreed on (2).   Personally, I think they'd be better off with (1).

The problem you describe would indeed be an enormous problem with (3) - so as far as I can tell, the "finite-flat-earth" people either haven't thought about it - or are going with (4).

Option (2) has problems though.  For UA to work would require an infinite energy source...and would either violate the law of conservation of momentum - or would require the earth to be sloughing off material from the underside at some prodigious rate as it accelerates.

So if *I* was an FE'er - I'd be going with option (1)...but all four approaches have problems with the variability of gravity over the Earth's surface (greater at poles than equator and less on top of tall mountains)...and falls apart when you consider tides.

A VERY few FE'ers claim that effect that we call "gravity" is caused by air pressure pushing down on things - but even their fellow FE'ers find that funny.  After all, if you put something under a bell jar and pump all of the air out, the object doesn't float.   So that's a bust.
I've honestly only ever seen (1) and (4) used. (4) seems most popular here (unless I've misread the wiki) and (1) is more popular over at theflatearthsociety.

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Re: Gravity
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2017, 08:09:47 PM »
If the Earth is flat, wouldn't gravity pull you towards the center of mass of the Earth, which, if you are near the edge, would not pull you perpendicular to the ground?

In some other post, I pointed out that the FE'ers really have four options for "what is gravity":

1) Infinite disk earth with gravity.
2) Infinite disk earth with Universal Acceleration.
3) Finite disk earth with gravity.
4) Finite disk earth with Universal Acceleration.

The folks here at TFES.org seem mostly to be agreed on (2).   Personally, I think they'd be better off with (1).

The problem you describe would indeed be an enormous problem with (3) - so as far as I can tell, the "finite-flat-earth" people either haven't thought about it - or are going with (4).

Option (2) has problems though.  For UA to work would require an infinite energy source...and would either violate the law of conservation of momentum - or would require the earth to be sloughing off material from the underside at some prodigious rate as it accelerates.

So if *I* was an FE'er - I'd be going with option (1)...but all four approaches have problems with the variability of gravity over the Earth's surface (greater at poles than equator and less on top of tall mountains)...and falls apart when you consider tides.

A VERY few FE'ers claim that effect that we call "gravity" is caused by air pressure pushing down on things - but even their fellow FE'ers find that funny.  After all, if you put something under a bell jar and pump all of the air out, the object doesn't float.   So that's a bust.
I've honestly only ever seen (1) and (4) used. (4) seems most popular here (unless I've misread the wiki) and (1) is more popular over at theflatearthsociety.

Hmmm - you know I could have sworn I'd seen pictures of an infinite plane earth on the Wiki - but now I can't find it.

Maybe you're right.

Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Gravity
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2017, 08:35:53 PM »
The folks here at TFES.org seem mostly to be agreed on (2).
Please stop spreading lies about us. It's extremely unhelpful, especially when it's been pointed out to you before.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!

If we are not speculating then we must assume

Offline Ga_x2

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Re: Gravity
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2017, 10:26:48 PM »
The folks here at TFES.org seem mostly to be agreed on (2).
Please stop spreading lies about us. It's extremely unhelpful, especially when it's been pointed out to you before.
would you mind pointing me to where on the wiki is the correct information? I happen to agree that 3d got that one probably wrong, but I can't blame him. If you spent half of the time you spend whining correcting the wiki with clear and univocal statements, you'd get almost no misrepresentations from people trying to nail jello to the wall.

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Re: Gravity
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2017, 01:34:29 AM »
The folks here at TFES.org seem mostly to be agreed on (2).
Please stop spreading lies about us. It's extremely unhelpful, especially when it's been pointed out to you before.
would you mind pointing me to where on the wiki is the correct information? I happen to agree that 3d got that one probably wrong, but I can't blame him. If you spent half of the time you spend whining correcting the wiki with clear and univocal statements, you'd get almost no misrepresentations from people trying to nail jello to the wall.

Aha!  I knew I'd seen it someplace:

    https://wiki.tfes.org/Atmolayer#Infinite_Earth

Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Offline Ga_x2

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Re: Gravity
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2017, 05:43:01 AM »
The folks here at TFES.org seem mostly to be agreed on (2).
Please stop spreading lies about us. It's extremely unhelpful, especially when it's been pointed out to you before.
would you mind pointing me to where on the wiki is the correct information? I happen to agree that 3d got that one probably wrong, but I can't blame him. If you spent half of the time you spend whining correcting the wiki with clear and univocal statements, you'd get almost no misrepresentations from people trying to nail jello to the wall.

Aha!  I knew I'd seen it someplace:

    https://wiki.tfes.org/Atmolayer#Infinite_Earth
figures  ;D
But then, it is presented with a big if. Truth is, you won't catch anyone making a definitive positive statement... The wiki is noncommittal on almost every topic, and most of the people know better than lending their side to fact-checking.. You have to end up giving credit to j-man for the courage of his convictions.

Re: Gravity
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2017, 12:23:13 PM »
 Gravity has always been one of the most perplexing things to me. However, gravity can pull everything towards the center but it isn't powerful enough to keep magnets apart.If I have a magnet strong enough placed on the top of my hand with the palms of the hand facing down, I would be able to lift an opposing magnet that is on the floor, being pulled by the magnetic force of gravity without any problem! #VierdYah

devils advocate

Re: Gravity
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2017, 02:10:12 PM »
Gravity has always been one of the most perplexing things to me. However, gravity can pull everything towards the center but it isn't powerful enough to keep magnets apart.

Gravity can also be beaten by a playing card - make a house of cards and you'll see that the cards on the higher levels are beating gravity in its attempts to pull them to the ground. Gravity is beaten by a child's helium balloon with no effort. Apply effort and gravity is thwarted in a big way with a jumbo jet. Don't stop at magnets, gravity gets defeated every day in countless ways but what is the relevance??? ???

Re: Gravity
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2017, 03:06:45 PM »
Gravity has always been one of the most perplexing things to me. However, gravity can pull everything towards the center but it isn't powerful enough to keep magnets apart.

Gravity can also be beaten by a playing card - make a house of cards and you'll see that the cards on the higher levels are beating gravity in its attempts to pull them to the ground. Gravity is beaten by a child's helium balloon with no effort. Apply effort and gravity is thwarted in a big way with a jumbo jet. Don't stop at magnets, gravity gets defeated every day in countless ways but what is the relevance??? ???

 The relevance would then lead you to believe that "gravity" isn't what we think it is. If you have a Helium balloon it will rise, but if the ballon has 50/50 air and Helium it floats! So clearly buoyancy creates the "gravity" effect we see. Depending on the medium in which you are in, gravities' effect changes, but ONLY depending on the medium in which you are in! :)  That would then lead us to rethink the force of gravity in space! How could we know the effect of gravity two objects have on one another if we don't know what the medium is made of?

devils advocate

Re: Gravity
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2017, 04:37:27 PM »
No its about forces equalling or overwhelming the pull of gravity. The helium pushes the balloon up countering the effect of gravity. The playing cards exert a force on the one above preventing the pull of gravity from pulling it down. As for the medium of space I'll have to hand that one over as I won't be good at explaining that (not that I am saying I have done a good job so far)  ;)
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 06:20:33 PM by devils advocate »

Re: Gravity
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2017, 04:54:36 PM »
No its about forces equalling or overwhelming the pull of gravity. The helium pushes the balloon up countering the effect of gravity. The playing cards exert a force on the one above preventing the pull of gravity from pulling it down. As for the medium of space I'll have to hand that one over as I won't be good at explaining that (not that I am saying I have a good job so far)  ;)
Seeing as gravity isn't the result of two mediums (what he appears to be attempting to present here is 'denpressure' and if you google that you can find out more about *that* particular insanity) wondering what the medium of space is seems largely irrelevant. Remember, gravity is a relatively weak attraction, dependent upon the size of the body. If you went to, say Jupiter, all of these things would be *much* harder to do. If gravity wasn't as relatively weak of a force as it is, you would have trouble simply walking!

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Re: Gravity
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2017, 02:25:18 AM »
Gravity has always been one of the most perplexing things to me. However, gravity can pull everything towards the center but it isn't powerful enough to keep magnets apart.If I have a magnet strong enough placed on the top of my hand with the palms of the hand facing down, I would be able to lift an opposing magnet that is on the floor, being pulled by the magnetic force of gravity without any problem! #VierdYah
It isn't a competition as if, a balloon floating has defeated gravity. Gravity is a force exerted on things by mass. Magnetism is a force that attracts things within magnetic fields. A magnet can attract metal or another magnet over a short range. But while the magnet can hold something, it still all exists in the Earth's gravitational field. Gravity is still working on both of them.

Think of an airplane. Gravity pulls the plane down and the lift created by the wings moving through the air pushes the plane up. Level flight is a balance between these two forces.

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Re: Gravity
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2017, 02:34:26 AM »
The answer to OP's question is pretty simple: gravity isn't real, so this is a non-issue.

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Re: Gravity
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2017, 02:44:35 AM »
The answer to OP's question is pretty simple: gravity isn't real, so this is a non-issue.
I just picked up a book and let go. It dropped toward the Earth. Gravity seems to still be working here. I'll let you explain to the OP that you think the floor was infinitely/universally accelerating towards the book driven by unknown and magical forces.

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Re: Gravity
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2017, 02:58:49 AM »
The answer to OP's question is pretty simple: gravity isn't real, so this is a non-issue.
I just picked up a book and let go. It dropped toward the Earth. Gravity seems to still be working here. I'll let you explain to the OP that you think the floor was infinitely/universally accelerating towards the book driven by unknown and magical forces.

You make it sound like uniform acceleration of the book in one direction is inherently less magical than it doing so in the other direction.

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Offline xenotolerance

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Re: Gravity
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2017, 03:39:09 AM »
dudes when you drop that book, it doesn't just accelerate toward the Earth, the Earth accelerates right back!

HOW SWEET IS THAT?

anyway gravity is super magical and cool imo:

Quote from: Wikipedia
Gravity is most accurately described by the general theory of relativity (proposed by Albert Einstein in 1915) which describes gravity not as a force, but as a consequence of the curvature of spacetime caused by the uneven distribution of mass. The most extreme example of this curvature of spacetime is a black hole, from which nothing -- not even light -- can escape once past the black hole's event horizon. However, for most applications, gravity is well approximated by Newton's law of universal gravitation, which describes gravity as a force which causes any two bodies to be attracted to each other, with the force proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them.
...
Every planetary body (including the Earth) is surrounded by its own gravitational field, which can be conceptualized with Newtonian physics as exerting an attractive force on all objects. Assuming a spherically symmetrical planet, the strength of this field at any given point above the surface is proportional to the planetary body's mass and inversely proportional to the square of the distance from the center of the body.

According to Newton's 3rd Law, the Earth itself experiences a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction to that which it exerts on a falling object. This means that the Earth also accelerates towards the object until they collide. Because the mass of the Earth is huge, however, the acceleration imparted to the Earth by this opposite force is negligible in comparison to the object's. If the object doesn't bounce after it has collided with the Earth, each of them then exerts a repulsive contact force on the other which effectively balances the attractive force of gravity and prevents further acceleration.
The apparent force of gravity on Earth is the resultant (vector sum) of two forces: The gravitational attraction in accordance with Newton's universal law of gravitation, and the centrifugal force, which results from the choice of an earthbound, rotating frame of reference. The force of gravity is the weakest at the equator because of the centrifugal force caused by the Earth's rotation and because points on the equator are furthest from the center of the Earth. The force of gravity varies with latitude and increases from about 9.780 m/s2 at the Equator to about 9.832 m/s2 at the poles.

yeah gravity is pretty cool.

getting way into it involves getting up to date on 20th century physics, which is a challenge. but you can do it! read some wikipedia articles for a start, maybe try some books

Offline mtnman

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Re: Gravity
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2017, 03:41:49 AM »
No magic in gravity. Mass attracts. Newton and Kepler figured it out a few hundred years ago.

If you believe in universal acceleration, please explain what is making the Earth accelerate. And why we observe star light shifted to the red end of the spectrum (things moving further away) rather than the opposite. If the Earth is accelerating, shouldn't you believe we are getting closer to the stars and other things we observe in the sky?