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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2017, 08:23:52 AM »
The shooter was an old white guy.
I'm relieved.  Now a minority group can't be blamed.

If you do a search for "suicide bomber" you get a new incident almost every week. Also, you're a pretty shitty person for using this as political ammo.

Out of curiosity, why? When someone is hit and killed on a dangerous stretch of road, the family is usually one of the first people using the tragedy to try to improve the safety of that stretch of road. Following the 1968 Ronan Point gas explosion, building regulations were changed so that high-rise residential buildings could not have gas feeds. Following the recent Grenfell Tower fire in London, there has been a push to investigate all similar tower blocks for similar faults.

Why is using this, or any shooting, as an argument for a change in the law considered to be in 'bad taste'? Politicians aren't professional mourners, their job is to review the legislation to make people's lives better, if a mass-shooting gives the topic the attention and political drive to implement a change in the law to prevent future shootings, then they should take advantage of it. What that change looks like, or whether any change is needed is, of course, up for debate, but trying to shut down that debate out of some sort of bizarre fixation with 'taste' seems like a pretty shitty excuse to not do your job.

Changes to the fundamental rights of a population based on emotional reactions to tragedies typically aren't the best kind of changes.

It doesn't have to be an emotional reaction. There are plenty of logical arguments based on statistics and probability on both sides of the debate, but they never get much attention beyond people who passionately care one way or the other until something like this happens. I'm not suggesting that we leave legislation to hysterical Helen Lovejoy-types, but when the national media has shone a spotlight on the subject, and there are people who are impassioned enough to lobby their legislators and turn up to protests, then politicians who want to make a positive change (whatever that looks like) should be free to make the most of this situation without being accused of being 'a shitty person'

The Road Traffic Act 1934 was brought into effect in the UK following mass public outcry over a record number of casualties on Britain's roads. It reintroduced a speed limit, made tests compulsory, and included a number of other clauses which still inform British driving legislation today. In fact, reading about the battles underlying the Act, it's easy to see the similarities with America's gun control debate:

On the side of motor car controls, the Pedestrians' Association argued that busy main routes were, roads of ‘blood and tears’ because of the number of accidents.

On the side against controls, a Conservative MP railed against the pleas about 7,000 people a year dying on the roads by saying: "'Why such concern over 7,000 road deaths a year? More than 6,000 people commit suicide every year, and nobody makes a fuss about that."

Change only comes when people have an emotional investment in making it, insisting that we never talk about gun control or changes to legislation following a mass-shooting out of 'decency' or 'taste' is really just an effort to shut down the debate entirely.

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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2017, 11:14:36 AM »

Not changing the fundamental rights of a population (to kill each other) based on the needs of gun manufacturers profit margins and good old boy sentiments, despite the mounting tragedies, typically are the best kind of (non)changes.

Fixed that!
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

No one infers a god from the simple, from the known, from what is understood, but from the complex, the unknown, and the incomprehensible. Our ignorance is God; what we know is science. Robert Green Ingersoll

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2017, 11:17:14 PM »
It doesn't have to be an emotional reaction. There are plenty of logical arguments based on statistics and probability on both sides of the debate, but they never get much attention beyond people who passionately care one way or the other until something like this happens. I'm not suggesting that we leave legislation to hysterical Helen Lovejoy-types, but when the national media has shone a spotlight on the subject, and there are people who are impassioned enough to lobby their legislators and turn up to protests, then politicians who want to make a positive change (whatever that looks like) should be free to make the most of this situation without being accused of being 'a shitty person'

The Road Traffic Act 1934 was brought into effect in the UK following mass public outcry over a record number of casualties on Britain's roads. It reintroduced a speed limit, made tests compulsory, and included a number of other clauses which still inform British driving legislation today. In fact, reading about the battles underlying the Act, it's easy to see the similarities with America's gun control debate:

On the side of motor car controls, the Pedestrians' Association argued that busy main routes were, roads of ‘blood and tears’ because of the number of accidents.

On the side against controls, a Conservative MP railed against the pleas about 7,000 people a year dying on the roads by saying: "'Why such concern over 7,000 road deaths a year? More than 6,000 people commit suicide every year, and nobody makes a fuss about that."

Change only comes when people have an emotional investment in making it, insisting that we never talk about gun control or changes to legislation following a mass-shooting out of 'decency' or 'taste' is really just an effort to shut down the debate entirely.

This debate isn't as simple as adding some traffic tests or other measures. Owning weapons is a fundamental right in the United States, and is specifically stated to be so in a Constitutional amendment, while something like driving, as far as I know, is not considered to be a fundamental right in any nation.

The key here is that after something like this happens, certain politicians move in to use the emotional capital to pass legislation that limits the rights of people. I see gun control as no different than, say, demanding all of your citizens wear a camera at all times to prevent crime. The price of removing rights is always higher than some little added security.


Not changing the fundamental rights of a population (to kill each other) based on the needs of gun manufacturers profit margins and good old boy sentiments, despite the mounting tragedies, typically are the best kind of (non)changes.

Fixed that!

Gun manufacturers profit margins wouldn't be terribly affected by a consumer gun ban, since their biggest customer has been is will always be governments around the world. Many European countries might have distaste for our gun policy, but that distaste disappears when they order our weapons en masse for their own purposes.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 11:19:58 PM by Rushy »

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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2017, 08:18:20 AM »
Quote
This debate isn't as simple as adding some traffic tests or other measures. Owning weapons is a fundamental right in the United States, and is specifically stated to be so in a Constitutional amendment, while something like driving, as far as I know, is not considered to be a fundamental right in any nation.

It was when the laws were being debated in the early 20th century. There's a great quote from a Conservative MP who essentially said that any kind of traffic laws were a fundamental attack of an Englishman's right to go where and how he likes.

Quote
The key here is that after something like this happens, certain politicians move in to use the emotional capital to pass legislation that limits the rights of people. I see gun control as no different than, say, demanding all of your citizens wear a camera at all times to prevent crime. The price of removing rights is always higher than some little added security.

And I'd agree with you about not making people wear cameras, but if, following some horrific crime, a politician tried to use public anger and fear to push his 'All Cameras All the Time' policy, I would expect that people like you and I would argue the follies of that policy and debate it down. I would have little respect for the argument that even proposing the policy is in some way in poor taste.

As I said, I'm not taking a position on gun control or traffic regulation in this thread, I'm simply making the argument that trying to shut the debate down on etiquette grounds is really disingenuous.

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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2017, 08:51:15 AM »


Not changing the fundamental rights of a population (to kill each other) based on the needs of gun manufacturers profit margins and good old boy sentiments, despite the mounting tragedies, typically are the best kind of (non)changes.

Fixed that!

Gun manufacturers profit margins wouldn't be terribly affected by a consumer gun ban, since their biggest customer has been is will always be governments around the world. Many European countries might have distaste for our gun policy, but that distaste disappears when they order our weapons en masse for their own purposes.

You underestimate your addiction!

Number of firearms manufactured in the US in 2013 (for instance), 10,847,792. Number of those guns that stayed in the domestic market (US), 10,413,880, only about 4% exported. Of all the small arms the UK armed forces have, most are made either in the UK, Europe or in Canada the only US ones are sniper rifles.
 
The NSSF reports that the domestic firearms industry (US) is worth $42.9 billion, however the cost of fatal and non-fatal gun violence to the U.S, is estimated at $229 billion due to your retarded health system.

That is why serious gun control will never happen, not only will it cost the gun makers but all the attendants to its effects would suffer too. Quite a little industry, sell killing and maiming machines to the masses and call it freedom, and then build another billion-dollar industry to benefit from the carnage.

Edit; 2013 US exported small arms = $1.1 billion, Imports $2.5 billion, what Rushy not checking his figures again, surely not.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 09:21:15 AM by Jura-Glenlivet »
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

No one infers a god from the simple, from the known, from what is understood, but from the complex, the unknown, and the incomprehensible. Our ignorance is God; what we know is science. Robert Green Ingersoll

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2017, 02:47:32 PM »
You underestimate your addiction!

Number of firearms manufactured in the US in 2013 (for instance), 10,847,792. Number of those guns that stayed in the domestic market (US), 10,413,880, only about 4% exported. Of all the small arms the UK armed forces have, most are made either in the UK, Europe or in Canada the only US ones are sniper rifles.
 
The NSSF reports that the domestic firearms industry (US) is worth $42.9 billion, however the cost of fatal and non-fatal gun violence to the U.S, is estimated at $229 billion due to your retarded health system.

That is why serious gun control will never happen, not only will it cost the gun makers but all the attendants to its effects would suffer too. Quite a little industry, sell killing and maiming machines to the masses and call it freedom, and then build another billion-dollar industry to benefit from the carnage.

Edit; 2013 US exported small arms = $1.1 billion, Imports $2.5 billion, what Rushy not checking his figures again, surely not.

I was wrong. I was thinking of the weapons industry as a whole, instead of only looking at the numbers for small arms.

It was when the laws were being debated in the early 20th century. There's a great quote from a Conservative MP who essentially said that any kind of traffic laws were a fundamental attack of an Englishman's right to go where and how he likes.

The difference, again, being that "to go where and how he likes" is not a fundamental right.

And I'd agree with you about not making people wear cameras, but if, following some horrific crime, a politician tried to use public anger and fear to push his 'All Cameras All the Time' policy, I would expect that people like you and I would argue the follies of that policy and debate it down. I would have little respect for the argument that even proposing the policy is in some way in poor taste.

As I said, I'm not taking a position on gun control or traffic regulation in this thread, I'm simply making the argument that trying to shut the debate down on etiquette grounds is really disingenuous.

I can agree with that.

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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2017, 08:24:50 AM »
Quote
The difference, again, being that "to go where and how he likes" is not a fundamental right.

In the early twentieth century, it was. Apart from military bases and the like, an Englishman would have expected to go wherever they liked however they liked. There are even ancient rights of way which give you the right to walk over another man's land, so long as people have been doing that walk for long enough.

Quote
I can agree with that.

Glad we could agree.

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Offline Excelsior John

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Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2017, 04:58:47 AM »
This one in Las Vegas, Nevada where gun laws are super lax.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-lasvegas-shooting/at-least-50-dead-more-than-200-hurt-in-las-vegas-shooting-idUSKCN1C70FU?utm_source=34553&utm_medium=partner

It's sad but I'm so used to hearing about this stuff I just can't find myself caring anymore.

Still got shot by police and not a normal citizen though. :/
This brutul shooting is PROOF enuf that ALL guns must be band imediateley, and the pepel who sold them the guns lockd up in PRISIN! In my opinyin (wich is fact!) the primarey falt is on the evil rascist gunnut REPUBLICENS who only rasist gun cuntrul to carey owt there plan of GENASIDE agenst there oponints! And I find it SHAMFULL that Trump alowd this shooting to hapen undur his watch so a large chunk of the blame gos to him! But most importintley it turns owt the shootur was a MOSLUM! ISIL raveled that he had cunvertid to Mohamadenism six munths before the shooting thus furthur proofing that the vast majoritey of Islams are TERORISTS! We serousley need to do something abowt the Islam problum in America, baning the Islams mite be the WON thing I agree with Trump on! So the cawses of this shooting were Islam and Republicens!
The shooter was an old white guy.
I'm relieved.  Now a minority group can't be blamed.
Inded. If it had ben a person of coler like myself then the rascist fascist media networks wuld all be saying "oh look a black guy (they use that raciel slur cuz there rascist) shot up a bunch of pepel. All black (sorey) pepel are murdururs"! And this wuld especialey be true and intense undur a Trump presidinsey (aka Thurd Ryche reincarnatid!)! It reley is idiotick and irationel to blame a hole groop basd on the actions of won person wich is why I am a CHAMPEIN of tolerinse!
Viva la FES!
Quote from: Yaakov ben Avraham link=https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=59968.msg1544396#msg1544396
Excelsior:...You are clearly a reasonable and intelligent person.

Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2017, 07:24:55 AM »
This one in Las Vegas, Nevada where gun laws are super lax.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-lasvegas-shooting/at-least-50-dead-more-than-200-hurt-in-las-vegas-shooting-idUSKCN1C70FU?utm_source=34553&utm_medium=partner

It's sad but I'm so used to hearing about this stuff I just can't find myself caring anymore.

Still got shot by police and not a normal citizen though. :/
This brutul shooting is PROOF enuf that ALL guns must be band imediateley, and the pepel who sold them the guns lockd up in PRISIN! In my opinyin (wich is fact!) the primarey falt is on the evil rascist gunnut REPUBLICENS who only rasist gun cuntrul to carey owt there plan of GENASIDE agenst there oponints! And I find it SHAMFULL that Trump alowd this shooting to hapen undur his watch so a large chunk of the blame gos to him! But most importintley it turns owt the shootur was a MOSLUM! ISIL raveled that he had cunvertid to Mohamadenism six munths before the shooting thus furthur proofing that the vast majoritey of Islams are TERORISTS! We serousley need to do something abowt the Islam problum in America, baning the Islams mite be the WON thing I agree with Trump on! So the cawses of this shooting were Islam and Republicens!

I agree. All guns must be banned and outlawed. To the people who sold that old bastard those guns - they should be charged with accessory to murder. They facilitated the deaths of all those innocent people and to they even profited from it!!!! Disgusting!!!!

The politicians who refuse to ban the guns should also be locked up for sheer utter negligence for allowing this to happen in the first place. They are tasked with protecting the people. Not overseeing the slaughter of them. For shame!!

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Offline Excelsior John

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Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2017, 08:45:24 PM »
This one in Las Vegas, Nevada where gun laws are super lax.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-lasvegas-shooting/at-least-50-dead-more-than-200-hurt-in-las-vegas-shooting-idUSKCN1C70FU?utm_source=34553&utm_medium=partner

It's sad but I'm so used to hearing about this stuff I just can't find myself caring anymore.

Still got shot by police and not a normal citizen though. :/
This brutul shooting is PROOF enuf that ALL guns must be band imediateley, and the pepel who sold them the guns lockd up in PRISIN! In my opinyin (wich is fact!) the primarey falt is on the evil rascist gunnut REPUBLICENS who only rasist gun cuntrul to carey owt there plan of GENASIDE agenst there oponints! And I find it SHAMFULL that Trump alowd this shooting to hapen undur his watch so a large chunk of the blame gos to him! But most importintley it turns owt the shootur was a MOSLUM! ISIL raveled that he had cunvertid to Mohamadenism six munths before the shooting thus furthur proofing that the vast majoritey of Islams are TERORISTS! We serousley need to do something abowt the Islam problum in America, baning the Islams mite be the WON thing I agree with Trump on! So the cawses of this shooting were Islam and Republicens!

I agree. All guns must be banned and outlawed. To the people who sold that old bastard those guns - they should be charged with accessory to murder. They facilitated the deaths of all those innocent people and to they even profited from it!!!! Disgusting!!!!

The politicians who refuse to ban the guns should also be locked up for sheer utter negligence for allowing this to happen in the first place. They are tasked with protecting the people. Not overseeing the slaughter of them. For shame!!
Absiluteley! I dont wanna here any of that nonsense abowt "backgrownd checks" we need to BAN all of these murdur mashines! The only thing there good for is KILLING so I dont care abowt what some wite hick says abowt using them for "hunting" (wich shuld also be ilegal) or "targit practise", that is nuthing but an excuse for them to plan anuther mass shooting. And yes the gun shop ownurs and Republicens shuld not just be lockd up but shuld get HARSH sentinses for there crimes. Suporting gun rites is just as bad as comiting the shooting itself! Grete minds think alike Shifter!

And lets also not forget the majer role Islam playd. I dont get why NO medea netwurks are talking abowt the fact that he workd for ISIL!
Viva la FES!
Quote from: Yaakov ben Avraham link=https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=59968.msg1544396#msg1544396
Excelsior:...You are clearly a reasonable and intelligent person.

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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2017, 09:12:21 AM »
Oh Christ, EJ is back...

Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2017, 11:34:17 AM »
Oh Christ, EJ is back...

You better believe it. And consider him the 2nd coming of Christ when it comes to saving the flat earth collective. You are all like lost sheep wandering off. He is the Shepard that will bring us all back and together. This forum and the other one.

You think Revelations is the last chapter in the bible? You ain't seen nothing. Excelsior John will write a new chapter after the reunification of our societies. I look forward to reading it

Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2017, 08:54:32 PM »
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/11/05/562217575/multiple-casualties-reported-after-gunman-opens-fire-in-south-texas-church

More proof that God doesn't really help ya not die, even in his own house.

$10 says it's a white Christian guy and Fox will have to avoid it again.

Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2017, 05:52:56 AM »
It was a white atheist ex military nut job.

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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2017, 09:47:24 AM »
It was a white atheist ex military nut job.

Who, like so many previous terrorists had a history of domestic abuse...

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Offline Dither

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Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2017, 09:54:42 AM »
This is just so tragic, what kind of a person shoots a five year old child.
And in this case, the gun laws may have prevented an even worse atrocity by cutting short this nutjobs  rampage.

QUOTE:
A DPS official said in the press conference that the gunman was confronted by an armed civilian outside of the church.
A lie will make it around the world before the truth has time to put on its shoes.

Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2017, 11:14:30 AM »
This is just so tragic, what kind of a person shoots a five year old child.
And in this case, the gun laws may have prevented an even worse atrocity by cutting short this nutjobs  rampage.

QUOTE:
A DPS official said in the press conference that the gunman was confronted by an armed civilian outside of the church.


Outside...
So he left said church (ie. Finished murdering) before anyone showed up.


And what took him out?
Not a gun but crashing his car.


Sssooo....not really.  Any unarmed citizen can chase an armed one with a car.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 11:17:20 AM by Lord Dave »

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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2017, 02:33:52 PM »

And in this case, the gun laws may have prevented an even worse atrocity by cutting short this nutjobs  rampage.



I don’t know if bizarre covers it? The obsessive way many Americans are fervently hoping that some citizen somewhere, is going to finally draw a weapon and shoot the bad dude, so the whole of the gun lobby can rise as one, red faced and pointing, and declare gun ownership vindicated, even though, private guns have killed more of your own people (since 1968), than all the wars you have been involved in since the creation of the US, put together. (https://www.snopes.com/gun-deaths-wars/)

If this “quick draw McGraw” happens to be a square jawed, god fearing flag bearer (white), he will probably be POTUS within a decade and a return to OK Corral style shootouts will be assured. That countless more innocents will end up in boot-hill because of would be Wyatt Earp’s blazing away in Malls across the US when a car back fires or little Bubba’s balloon bursts, won’t matter in the slightest, as collateral damage is something you are more than happy to countenance in the name of freedom.

This is not normal in a civilised country.   


Edit; I keep forgetting Dither is an Ocker, this in no way invalidates this finely crafted point.
Edit; As Rushy is bound to rock up soon.
Dither, put a bloody hat with corks on your avatar or stop talking like a southern Baptist.     
   
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 08:43:41 AM by Jura-Glenlivet »
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

No one infers a god from the simple, from the known, from what is understood, but from the complex, the unknown, and the incomprehensible. Our ignorance is God; what we know is science. Robert Green Ingersoll

Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2017, 02:32:49 PM »
Trump calls Texas police incompetent; Claims "hundreds more" would have died with stricter gun laws.

((I made it intentionally misleading but yeah, if hundreds would have died then I would think the Texas police aren't very good.  I mean, he'd have to go and kill over 100 more people.  Even the most deadly shooting (just last month) got 50ish.  He'd really have to be out there for a long time and in a very crowded area to gun down hundreds more.

Also:
Stricter gun laws may have prevented said guy from getting the guns or not prevented the hero from having a gun (which was a rifle, which aren't usually banned anyway).  So his statement is just wrong in so many ways.

Oh and one again, the shooter killed himself.
So... those good guys with guns are looking pretty damn pathetic.

"Man, I'm such a bad shot that my enemy literally just shoots himself out of pity"
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 02:35:31 PM by Lord Dave »

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Offline Dither

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Re: Another mass shooting...
« Reply #39 on: November 18, 2017, 12:08:29 AM »
Dither, put a bloody hat with corks on your avatar or stop talking like a southern Baptist. 

The problem with guns is that they are too damn effective, society needs a return to knives and swords.
Just imagine trying to kill fifty innocent people with a cutlass, you'd definately work up a sweat.
Not to mention having to chase them all down because nobody's gonna stand in one spot and wait. 

Plus, it may take a few shooting range lessons to get some rough accuracy on a handgun.
But how many years will it take to learn to yield a scimitar? or brace a broadsword?
So I agree with you Jura, guns should be banned because its just too easy,
But now we have them, and that door can never be shut.
A lie will make it around the world before the truth has time to put on its shoes.