The Flat Earth Society

Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: Lord Dave on February 21, 2017, 12:15:51 PM

Title: It's legal to kill across country borders...
Post by: Lord Dave on February 21, 2017, 12:15:51 PM
I totally did not know this:
http://www.npr.org/2017/02/21/515625917/supreme-court-to-decide-if-mexican-nationals-may-sue-for-border-shooting

Summary:
Border Agent sees kids playing near the US/Mexico border.
Border agent grabs one through the fence, shoots at another hiding behind a concrete column holding up a railroad track.
Kid is shot in the head, dies, and border agents(who arrived later) leave.

The us refuses to extradite him or punish him in any way.  Border agent claims it was self defense cause he was surrounded by rock throwing kids.
Cell video says otherwise.

Title: Re: It's legal to kill across country borders...
Post by: Jura-Glenlivet on February 21, 2017, 12:34:07 PM

And then the US whines about everybody wanting to blow the fuck out of them
Title: Re: It's legal to kill across country borders...
Post by: Rama Set on February 24, 2017, 02:32:59 PM
Presumably this should require a declaration of war.
Title: Re: It's legal to kill across country borders...
Post by: Luke 22:35-38 on March 11, 2017, 02:10:13 AM
What the border agent did was wrong and should be convicted for murder if what you say is true. However how old are these "kids"? I'm in no way justifying what he did but I don't want to make it any worse than it should be.
Title: Re: It's legal to kill across country borders...
Post by: Luke 22:35-38 on March 11, 2017, 02:18:28 AM
According to OP's own article at least one of those "kids" are fifteen. At fifteen you can get a driver's permit in many states. When OP says "kids" the first image that comes to mind is a bunch 8-10 year olds playing tag. Being that the article admits that they were playing chicken with the border guards it causes me to think that maybe there's more to that than what the article states. Again, if what OP and the article says is true then he should be convicted. But as of now this whole thing raises some red flags.
Title: Re: It's legal to kill across country borders...
Post by: model 29 on April 06, 2017, 04:04:36 AM
How big were the rocks? 
Title: Re: It's legal to kill across country borders...
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 08, 2017, 09:50:05 PM
You would also be shot if you and your friends ganged up on a lone police officer and assaulted him with rocks. Where is the issue?
Title: Re: It's legal to kill across country borders...
Post by: Luke 22:35-38 on April 09, 2017, 01:42:21 AM
You would also be shot if you and your friends ganged up on a lone police officer and assaulted him with rocks. Where is the issue?

I see none.
Title: Re: It's legal to kill across country borders...
Post by: Jura-Glenlivet on April 10, 2017, 09:48:31 AM

As usual Bishop sees a lot of words and decides to rewrite them to fit his own view, in the mistaken belief that because he can't interpret them no one else can. The cellphone footage reportedly shows nobody surrounding the officer when he shoots at the boy 60 foot away and drops him, no charges as he's American and the boy is just a Mexican, and the guns & god brigade think that the penalty for throwing rocks should be execution, W.T.F. is wrong with you?
Title: Re: It's legal to kill across country borders...
Post by: Lord Dave on April 10, 2017, 02:19:10 PM
You would also be shot if you and your friends ganged up on a lone police officer and assaulted him with rocks. Where is the issue?


I dunno... Would you be afraid of rocks being thrown at a fence? 


The kids could not surround a man on the p
Opposite side of a fence without climbing it (which they did not do).  So thats one problem.  Second, the rocks would have to be thrown over the fence, which isn't impossible but it does make it much harder to hit the target.


So no, he was not justified.
Title: Re: It's legal to kill across country borders...
Post by: Luke 22:35-38 on April 10, 2017, 06:10:44 PM

As usual Bishop sees a lot of words and decides to rewrite them to fit his own view, in the mistaken belief that because he can't interpret them no one else can. The cellphone footage reportedly shows nobody surrounding the officer when he shoots at the boy 60 foot away and drops him, no charges as he's American and the boy is just a Mexican, and the guns & god brigade think that the penalty for throwing rocks should be execution, W.T.F. is wrong with you?

The key word is "reportedly" and rocks the size of grapefruit can be a lethal weapon.
Title: Re: It's legal to kill across country borders...
Post by: rooster on April 10, 2017, 11:05:38 PM
Well, he was 60 feet away. Plus, the kid was hiding, not actively throwing anything. The coward shot a child that was not a threat.

"Fifteen-year-old Sergio ran past Mesa and hid behind a pillar beneath the bridge on the Mexican side. As the boy peeked out, Agent Mesa, 60 feet or so away on the U.S. side, drew his gun, aimed it at the boy, and fired three times, the last shot hitting the boy in the head."
Title: Re: It's legal to kill across country borders...
Post by: Luke 22:35-38 on June 23, 2017, 07:16:53 AM
Well, he was 60 feet away. Plus, the kid was hiding, not actively throwing anything. The coward shot a child that was not a threat.

"Fifteen-year-old Sergio ran past Mesa and hid behind a pillar beneath the bridge on the Mexican side. As the boy peeked out, Agent Mesa, 60 feet or so away on the U.S. side, drew his gun, aimed it at the boy, and fired three times, the last shot hitting the boy in the head."

That's what the story said, that may not what actually happened.
Title: Re: It's legal to kill across country borders...
Post by: Pickel B Gravel on January 13, 2018, 10:15:22 PM
I totally did not know this:
http://www.npr.org/2017/02/21/515625917/supreme-court-to-decide-if-mexican-nationals-may-sue-for-border-shooting

Summary:
Border Agent sees kids playing near the US/Mexico border.
Border agent grabs one through the fence, shoots at another hiding behind a concrete column holding up a railroad track.
Kid is shot in the head, dies, and border agents(who arrived later) leave.

The us refuses to extradite him or punish him in any way.  Border agent claims it was self defense cause he was surrounded by rock throwing kids.
Cell video says otherwise.

Correct. A nation's laws don't apply to non-citizens. For example, an illegal immigrant in the USA can rape or murder and not face charges in the USA. Instead, he would be sent back to his country to be dealt with (if at all). This is one of the strongest cases opponents of illegal immigration have for their cause. But if I'm not mistaken, a noncitizen who does a crime against a nation is punished by said nation.
Title: Re: It's legal to kill across country borders...
Post by: Lord Dave on January 13, 2018, 10:37:06 PM
I totally did not know this:
http://www.npr.org/2017/02/21/515625917/supreme-court-to-decide-if-mexican-nationals-may-sue-for-border-shooting (http://www.npr.org/2017/02/21/515625917/supreme-court-to-decide-if-mexican-nationals-may-sue-for-border-shooting)

Summary:
Border Agent sees kids playing near the US/Mexico border.
Border agent grabs one through the fence, shoots at another hiding behind a concrete column holding up a railroad track.
Kid is shot in the head, dies, and border agents(who arrived later) leave.

The us refuses to extradite him or punish him in any way.  Border agent claims it was self defense cause he was surrounded by rock throwing kids.
Cell video says otherwise.

Correct. A nation's laws don't apply to non-citizens. For example, an illegal immigrant in the USA can rape or murder and not face charges in the USA. Instead, he would be sent back to his country to be dealt with (if at all). This is one of the strongest cases opponents of illegal immigration have for their cause. But if I'm not mistaken, a noncitizen who does a crime against a nation is punished by said nation.
False.
A nation's laws do apply if you comit the crime in said nation.
If I go to spain and kill someone, I will go to jail in spain.  If I am an illegal in the US, I could go to jail or be departed, depending on what the DA's office wants to do.  ICE may want me out sooner or be fine with me serving my sentance.  It varies case by case.


They can, however, transfer prisons to their home country if both nations agree.
Title: Re: It's legal to kill across country borders...
Post by: Baby Thork on January 13, 2018, 11:59:14 PM
None of this would have happened if you just hurried up and built that wall.
Title: Re: It's legal to kill across country borders...
Post by: Rama Set on January 14, 2018, 12:01:28 AM
Weirdly you can’t just go to the ATM for $6B dollars.
Title: Re: It's legal to kill across country borders...
Post by: Baby Thork on January 14, 2018, 12:12:43 AM
The Federal Reserve can just print it, and are very happy to accept US treasuries which the government can just print, in exchange. It goes like this.

Bring Bring, Bring Bring ...

"Hello, Federal Reserve."
"Hi, this is the US Treasury. We'd like some money. Can you conjure $6bn please?"
"Sure, and will you be paying in treasuries, Mr Treasurer?"
"Do bears shit in the woods? So you print your worthless paper, we'll print ours, we'll swap paper and then some idiots will take that paper and exchange it with us for real goods and services."
"Excellent. Pleasure doing fraud with you. Bye."

Title: Re: It's legal to kill across country borders...
Post by: Rama Set on January 14, 2018, 01:20:43 AM
I think you forgot the small part where the procurement has to be approved by Congress. No biggie...
Title: Re: It's legal to kill across country borders...
Post by: Baby Thork on January 14, 2018, 01:24:12 AM
Do you want dead Mexican kids or not? Back Trump and this all goes away ... along with the Mexicans.
Title: Re: It's legal to kill across country borders...
Post by: Lord Dave on January 14, 2018, 05:55:03 AM
Do you want dead Mexican kids or not? Back Trump and this all goes away ... along with the Mexicans.


1. Illegal crossing arrests are already down 70%.  Is that because crossings have decreased or apprehensions?  Fuck if I know.


2. The wall hasn't even been decided as far as I know.  Prototypes are built but thats it.


3. Drones, tunnels, all of which bypass walls.  Remember, the Great Wall of China failed to stop invasions.

Title: Re: It's legal to kill across country borders...
Post by: honk on January 14, 2018, 02:36:34 PM
The Federal Reserve can just print it, and are very happy to accept US treasuries which the government can just print, in exchange. It goes like this.

Bring Bring, Bring Bring ...

"Hello, Federal Reserve."
"Hi, this is the US Treasury. We'd like some money. Can you conjure $6bn please?"
"Sure, and will you be paying in treasuries, Mr Treasurer?"
"Do bears shit in the woods? So you print your worthless paper, we'll print ours, we'll swap paper and then some idiots will take that paper and exchange it with us for real goods and services."
"Excellent. Pleasure doing fraud with you. Bye."

No, the Fed can't "just print it." That's not how money creation works. And I don't think the word "treasuries" means what you think it does.
Title: Re: It's legal to kill across country borders...
Post by: Baby Thork on January 15, 2018, 01:19:50 AM
No, the Fed can't "just print it." That's not how money creation works. And I don't think the word "treasuries" means what you think it does.

That is exactly how money creation works and I know what treasuries are. So that you are up to speed ....

Quote from: http://www.investorwords.com/5057/Treasuries.html
Treasuries
Definition
Negotiable U.S. Government debt obligations, backed by its full faith and credit. Treasuries are issued by the U.S. government in order to pay for government projects.
Projects like building walls.

Does the FED buy these treasuries with the money it prints?
Quote from: https://www.thebalance.com/how-is-the-fed-monetizing-debt-3306126
How Is the Fed Monetizing the U.S. Debt?
When the Fed buys U.S. Treasuries, it allows the government to borrow more while keeping interest rates low.

A nation monetizes its debt when it converts debt to credit or cash. It frees up capital that's locked in the debt and puts it into circulation. The only way it can do this is with its central bank. The central bank purchases the government debt and replaces it with credit. The bank puts the debt on its balance sheet. It creates the credit out of thin air. A central bank is the only bank that can legally do this.

Next time on Baby Thork Educates honk ... honk learns how potato prints are made.
Title: Re: It's legal to kill across country borders...
Post by: Rama Set on January 15, 2018, 02:33:16 AM
There is still a need for a congressional mandate to procure the funds to build this wall.
Title: Re: It's legal to kill across country borders...
Post by: honk on January 15, 2018, 05:02:23 AM
Fair enough regarding "treasuries," which I had never heard being used like that before, and now that I have, I find it to be a vague, lazy term that undoubtedly causes all sorts of confusion - but regardless, people do use it like that, so I stand corrected. But what you're saying about the Fed is nonsense, and the article you linked doesn't support it at all. Creating credit, lowering interest rates, and buying securities to take them out of circulation are long-term strategies to help the nation control and manage its debt. It's not about creating a sum of discrete cash that the government can then take and spend on a project. To put it in terms that perhaps you'll appreciate, much of the money that the Fed works with isn't "real." It's hypothetical money that's owed to them, but realistically will never be paid, money that the government owes to debtors, but realistically will never pay, and so on.
Title: Re: It's legal to kill across country borders...
Post by: Baby Thork on January 15, 2018, 11:29:18 AM
Fair enough regarding "treasuries," which I had never heard being used like that before, and now that I have, I find it to be a vague, lazy term that undoubtedly causes all sorts of confusion - but regardless, people do use it like that, so I stand corrected. But what you're saying about the Fed is nonsense, and the article you linked doesn't support it at all. Creating credit, lowering interest rates, and buying securities to take them out of circulation are long-term strategies to help the nation control and manage its debt. It's not about creating a sum of discrete cash that the government can then take and spend on a project. To put it in terms that perhaps you'll appreciate, much of the money that the Fed works with isn't "real." It's hypothetical money that's owed to them, but realistically will never be paid, money that the government owes to debtors, but realistically will never pay, and so on.

Using treasuries like that is exactly where the term 'montetizing debt' comes from. That's how the banks were bailed out. That's how you ran up a $trillion debt on the F-35, and if the US wanted to, that's how they could fund a wall. With money that the FED magics into existence, in exchange for throwing the debt on the US tab which it will never pay off anyway.


There is still a need for a congressional mandate to procure the funds to build this wall.
Yes, you keep saying this. Obviously for the government to monetize debt, the government has to agree to monetize debt. The point of my post was that if the US got behind Trump and built the wall, you wouldn't have border issues like this.
Title: Re: It's legal to kill across country borders...
Post by: honk on January 15, 2018, 01:32:12 PM
That's how the banks were bailed out.

The banks were bailed out by the government buying their distressed securities. It had nothing to do with debt monetization.

Quote
That's how you ran up a $trillion debt on the F-35

This also had nothing to do with debt monetization. You're just pointing to examples of high spending from the government and blaming it on the Fed.
Title: Re: It's legal to kill across country borders...
Post by: Rama Set on January 15, 2018, 01:47:28 PM
That's how the banks were bailed out.

The banks were bailed out by the government buying their distressed securities. It had nothing to do with debt monetization.

Where do you think the cash came from? The fed doesn’t have trillions of dollars (https://www.federalreserve.gov/data/intlsumm/current.htm) just sitting in a bank account. They likely did a treasuries issue that was snatched up by the Chinese and Saudi Royal family.

Title: Re: It's legal to kill across country borders...
Post by: Baby Thork on January 15, 2018, 07:26:13 PM
In reality it is all done by the budget. Lets say the US decides to spend x amount.

The government looks at how much revenue it has from income taxes, medicare, corporate taxes ... every other form of tax yields very little.

It looks at this number and then says mmm, that number is x-y. But we need x. We have a shortfall of y. And we can't borrow any more ... unless we raise the debt ceiling. After a little brinkmanship and political posturing the government agrees to raise the debt ceiling by y and it issues treasuries to get the money. Now private investors and banks can buy this debt in a number of ways. T-bills, T-notes, T-bonds and CPI thingies that I confess I don't really understand as well. They are all types of treasuries.

The problem is, the yield on these 'investments' is at 300 year lows, and no one wants them because the FED has nailed the base rate to the floor. In fact many foreign powers are dumping US treasuries like never before. This leaves the government with only one place to go. The lender of last resort ... the Federal Reserve.

So the FED agrees to put those treasuries on its balance sheet, and it issues US dollars that pay for all the things the government wants. This is where F35 money comes from. The US puts the cost on its defense budget, and once the debt ceiling is raised, the FED prints the money and it ends up in the pockets of Lockheed Martin shareholders. Meanwhile the FED loads its balance sheet with all the treasuries that were printed when the debt ceiling rise was approved.

Now, bearing in mind the F35 is now running at $1.5 trillion or $1500 billion as a program, I really don't think there would be much issue with putting a paltry amount like $6 billion on the budget in order to get a much needed wall to keep out the despicable Mexicans. All it takes is political will. Money is not an issue.


If you are interested in how the UK does this, being a Brit I'm more familiar with our system than the US one. It is every bit as fraudulent, but for sheer comedy value, you have to look at how the EU does this. It is beyond fraud. It is downright ridiculous.