[Tom Bishop]

According to the Round Earth model the inner planets, specifically Venus and Mercury, are orbiting the sun closer than the Earth and the outer planets are. The night side of the earth is pointing away from the sun, yet it is possible to see Venus and Mercury at night.

Here is a scale model found on Wikipedia (click to enlarge):



Assuming that the Round Earth is always half lit by the sun as so:



With the lit side of the earth always pointing towards the sun, how could we see Mercury and Venus at night?

Venus can be seen at times all throughout the night. See this article as an example Planet Venus Visible All Night Long This Weekend:

This weekend, Venus should appear in the western sky at sunset, weather permitting, and should be visible as a dazzling sky watching target nearly all night long.

This is curious. How is Venus viewable "all night long"?

[Roundy]

Dammit Tom, I thought this would be irrefutable, but it was actually pretty easy to find an explanation.

https://www.space.com/15279-venus-weekend-skywatching-tips.html

We'll get em next time.

[Tom Bishop]

They have "explanations" for everything. But we can clearly see that the physical geometry of the scene makes midnight viewing impossible.

The Space.com link self admits that seeing Venus in the middle of the night should be impossible, and provides some sort of convoluted "explanation" without illustration.

Venus's nightly view

Some astronomy guidebooks will tell you that because Venus is a so-called "inferior" planet — a world  that is closer to the sun than Earth — that you can never see it in the middle of the night. But this week, for many locations, Venus will be visible at the witching hour and for some localities well beyond the stroke of midnight!

The reason that this is possible is two-fold:

First, although Venus has started its march back toward the sun's vicinity, this process initially is rather slow. Indeed, this week Venus' elongation from the sun measures 44 degrees; just 2 degrees shy of its greatest elongation that it attained about three weeks ago. (Your closed fist held at arm's length covers about 10 degrees of the sky).

In the interim, Venus has been progressing eastward along the ecliptic and in the process also moving northward through that part of the sky that the sun itself will be traversing during May and June. In other words, Venus has been describing a high arc across the sky, which is why at sunset it appears from mid-northern latitudes to be nearly halfway from the horizon to the point directly overhead (the zenith).

This explanation is not clear. It is supposed to describe something that is impossible.

I found an image from the New Jersey Institute of Technology which illustrates, with a top-down view, the idea of Venus being at or near "the greatest elongation from the sun," as Space.com tries to use as an explanation.



How does this image or concept allow us to see Venus at night, all throughout the night?

[Tom Bishop]

That was their "first reason". Lets see what their "second reason" is.

The other reason is that because the length of daylight is increasing, the sun is setting progressively later.  But a more important factor came into play on the second Sunday in March (the 11th) when most places in North America observed the start of Daylight Saving Time.

Indeed, pushing the clock ahead forestalled (for an hour) the setting of the sun, as well as the setting of Venus. So, for example, from New York City, this week Venus would appear to set at 10:36 p.m. Eastern Standard Time, but adding the extra hour delays Venus’ setting until 11:36 p.m. Eastern Daylight Time (EDT).

But over the April 15th, 2012 weekend, the weekend in question, the length of the day for mid-northern latitudes (I chose San Francisco) was just under 13 hours according to http://www.solartopo.com/daylength.htm



This is even worse for their "explanation".

[Devils Advocate]

So you are happy to take this websites data of sunrise/set then? I recall that when such websites were used to argue against you their evidence was refuted.

As to your point, yes with your diagram as drawn seeing the planet at night would be impossible, but by shifting said planet up or down it would be clearly visible from the dark side of earth......try again

[Tom Bishop]

So you are happy to take this websites data of sunrise/set then? I recall that when such websites were used to argue against you their evidence was refuted.

As to your point, yes with your diagram as drawn seeing the planet at night would be impossible, but by shifting said planet up or down it would be clearly visible from the dark side of earth......try again

We are constantly told that these calculators are based on Round Earth Theory, and should be correct according to your model (I actually believe it is based on patterns and trends, but I digress). The results, according to the RE authorities, are correct for the Round Earth model, and not wrong in a way that makes planets visible that should not be visible.

Venus has an orbital inclination of only 3°23'40" degrees, and Mercury has an orbital inclination of only 7°00'16" degrees. How does this make it more possible?

[Devils Advocate]

Maybe flag up your concerns to an astronomical authority, for you Americans I guess NASA would be your first choice? If you've stumbled on something as big as this they'll thank you I'm sure.

I've seen Saturn through a telescope, rings and all, very fleeting as it flashed across the viewfinder mind, a wonderful moment! The world of astronomy is a huge arena which has only just had it's surface scratched, issues like the one you've raised can only help us all better understand it I guess.

[Tom Bishop]

"I give up, astronomy is wrong."

Is that the answer we are hearing?

[Devils Advocate]

Certainly not from me, Simply that when out in scale the universe is sooooooo old and soooooo BIG that our understanding of it is still in its infancy. But difference to it being wrong.   

[HorstFue]

First issue with the article:
The headline is a bit exaggerated, if you read the text thoroughly, at a place 30°N Venus will set about 3.5 hours after the sun.

Painting diagrams and sketches could be a rather tedious job. Something better:
The rise and set of Venus follows the same principles as the sun rise and set.

First iteration: The direction to Venus is about 45° behind the direction to the sun. So Venus rise and set will be 3 hours (globe will turn 45° in 3 hours) after sun rise and set. That already comes near the 3.5 hours for places 30°N

Second iteration: Tilt of earth axis, solstice: Due to these 45° also the "season" for Venus is different than that for the sun.
At summer solstice the earth axis is tilted towards the sun, we observe the longest days, longest time between sun rise and set. Currently there's no solstice for the sun, but for Venus. The earth axis is tilted towards Venus, so maximizing time between Venus rise and set.
I'm not sure, if I could calculate it exactly, so an estimation. For places about 49°N, daytime at summer solstice is 4 hours longer (total about 16 hours) than at equinox. So sunset is delayed by about 2 hours. Same thing applied for Venus could give another hour or more for the Venus setting. This comes near those 5.5 hours for places 60°N, like mentioned in the article.

And third iteration: Daylight saving time will shift the clock another hour. But this is only a clock shift.

[AATW]

They have "explanations" for everything. But we can clearly see that the physical geometry of the scene makes midnight viewing impossible.

It really is quite amazing how confident you are in your understanding of things like this.
Especially given the number of different things you didn't understand about a simple experiment with a laser and boat despite 3 people trying to explain it to you.
And all the while you kept shouting that it was us who didn't understand before realising you were wrong...

[Devils Advocate]

They have "explanations" for everything.

How does this image or concept allow us to see Venus at night, all throughout the night?

Please Tom, give us YOUR explanation. What do you think is going on in our solar system, please give us a diagram of your flat earth and how the planet's interact, at least that would offer an alternative to the mainstream for a devils advocate to consider...

[model 29]

Position of Venus in it's orbit in relation to Earth, Earth's axis tilt/season, high enough latitudes... I'm not seeing a problem.

[Tom Bishop]

The earth spins on its axis. It doesn't change where day and night is.



The problem is that someone located in the night area of the above image are seeing Mercury and Venus at late hours in their sky.

They have "explanations" for everything.

How does this image or concept allow us to see Venus at night, all throughout the night?

Please Tom, give us YOUR explanation. What do you think is going on in our solar system, please give us a diagram of your flat earth and how the planet's interact, at least that would offer an alternative to the mainstream for a devils advocate to consider...

The Flat Earth Theory is a fledgling new theory that is under development. The Round Earth Theory, as we are told, is a certainty.

The theory that Mercury and Venus orbit close to the sun as inner planets must be true. The argument of "well, Copernicus was wrong about the placement of Mercury and Venus" cannot be made. If Mercury and Venus are not where they are asserted to be then it all falls apart.

NASA has claimed to have sent space probes to visit Mercury and Venus. They claimed to have made calculations under the RET model to get them there. Why haven't they told us that they are not really the inner planets that are orbiting closer to the sun?

If you cannot explain this, then it does more than show that astronomy is wrong. It also shows that NASA is a fraud.

[Devils Advocate]

The earth spins on its axis. It doesn't change where day and night is.



The problem is that someone located in the night area of the above image are seeing Mercury and Venus, which are orbiting closer to the sun, in their sky.

They have "explanations" for everything.

How does this image or concept allow us to see Venus at night, all throughout the night?

Please Tom, give us YOUR explanation. What do you think is going on in our solar system, please give us a diagram of your flat earth and how the planet's interact, at least that would offer an alternative to the mainstream for a devils advocate to consider...

Flat Earth Theory is a theory that is under development. Round Earth Theory, as we are told, is a certainty.

The theory that Mercury and Venus orbits the sun MUST to be true. The argument of "well, Copernicus was wrong about the placement of Mercury and Venus" cannot be made.

NASA has claimed to have sent probes to visit Mercury and Venus. They claimed to have all of the RET calculations that got them there. Why haven't they told us that they aren't really the inner planets that are orbiting closer to the sun?

If you cannot explain this, then it does more than show that astronomy is wrong. It also shows that NASA is a fraud.

How does what you're asking mean they aren't inner planets???

[Curious Squirrel]

The earth spins on its axis. It doesn't change where day and night is.



The problem is that someone located in the night area of the above image are seeing Mercury and Venus, which are orbiting closer to the sun, in their sky.

They have "explanations" for everything.

How does this image or concept allow us to see Venus at night, all throughout the night?

Please Tom, give us YOUR explanation. What do you think is going on in our solar system, please give us a diagram of your flat earth and how the planet's interact, at least that would offer an alternative to the mainstream for a devils advocate to consider...

The Flat Earth Theory is a fledgling new theory that is under development. The Round Earth Theory, as we are told, is a certainty.

The theory that Mercury and Venus orbit close to the sun as inner planets must be true. The argument of "well, Copernicus was wrong about the placement of Mercury and Venus" cannot be made. If Mercury and Venus are not where they are asserted to be then it all falls apart.

NASA has claimed to have sent space probes to visit Mercury and Venus. They claimed to have made calculations under the RET model to get them there. Why haven't they told us that they are not really the inner planets that are orbiting closer to the sun?

If you cannot explain this, then it does more than show that astronomy is wrong. It also shows that NASA is a fraud.

If we cannot explain this, nothing. Looks to me like everything was explained in that article, you simply fail to grasp it once again. You just recently showed how difficult a simple bit of geometry was for you to understand, and I'm still not sold you actually get it. Why is it on us to give you an education on these subjects? If you're going to object to something, you need to at least show you understand what you're talking about first. Which at this point? It's not clear you have.

To put it plainly, I grok the idea behind how it works. Something to do with the angles, and the late night viewing is because of daylight savings time. The second being a key part of this. But as I've told other people asking more technical questions like this, if you want in depth technical information on these sorts of things? Try a forum like Quora. IF someone with the knowledge/expertise happens to be around here, I'm sure they'd be up for helping sort some of this out. But while I think I've got a handle on what's going on here, after the last attempt to explain something far simple, I doubt I could explain it well enough for you to accept/get it too. My inability to do that says nothing about the veracity of this or NASA however.

I'd also like to gently remind you, midnight local time =/= midnight solar time the vast majority of the time.

[model 29]

The earth spins on its axis. It doesn't change where day and night is.



The problem is that someone located in the night area of the above image are seeing Mercury and Venus, which are orbiting closer to the sun, in their sky.

There is no problem if you understand it and can envision it in 3-d.

[Macarios]

This is not to scale.
It only shows the basic principle how can we see Venus at night.



EDIT:
For more details one would need more accurate drawing in 3D.
Maybe something similar to this:

[Tumeni]

Tom; please refer once or twice more to reply #9, and model it for yourself in 3D, taking into account axial tilt as well as position of Venus.

Showing us 2D diagrams which may or may not be applicable for the particular time of year don't cut it.

In pure 2D terms, the angle between the Sun-Earth line and Earth-Venus line is around 36 degrees, and if the Earth were perfectly aligned perpendicular to the orbital planes, that would determine how far into night Venus could be seen. But the Earth isn't aligned this way. Put the axial tilt toward Venus, and all of a sudden, it's visible to more of the Earth at Northern latitudes.

[Macarios]

Especially given the number of different things you didn't understand about a simple experiment with a laser and boat despite 3 people trying to explain it to you.
And all the while you kept shouting that it was us who didn't understand before realising you were wrong...

First, this is not about laser and boat.

Second, he DOES understand these things, but his understanding is ruining his "proof".
He's not stupid at all.