[Disgraced_Shield]

Good day. This is my first post, and I came here because I ran into a flat-earther (what do you call yourselves?) in another corner of the web. He claimed to have a truth that the rest of us didn't, and when I asked him a few questions, he vanished. He truly was not a great representative of your community. So, I came here to ask my question in the hopes that I can get a legitimate answer for what I think is the biggest piece of the puzzle.

Apologies if this is covered somewhere else- I did a cursory check before I posted this. If it is, please feel free to redirect me.

Let's say that the science you're citing holds water. I cannot debate any of that, as I am not well versed in science. I was a history teacher- which is where my question derives from.

If I am reading this right, The entire theory hinges on a global conspiracy. The world's governments have known your truth for centuries, yet it is kept from us. The 'why' is much less relevant than the 'how.'

Human nature has demonstrated itself to be fickle and unreliable any number of times. Entire generations have been devastated by wars started over minor political, religious, and social ideologies. Governments of many global powers have been toppled time and again by coups and revolutions. (Russian, French, American Revolutions to name a few) With the ebb and flow of governmental control, how do you think it is possible for such a conspiracy to have been protected from the masses for so long? How is it possible that an overthrown government which has caused much malice with its populace- able to convince an incoming power to keep such a secret?

The mere scope of the conspiracy alone seems implausible. Far too much seems to rely on far too many people for there to have not been (by now) some sort of massive leak- a major player in the global community coming forth to decree that everything we know is wrong.

In the age where we are starting to turn an eye to privatized space flights, why would these companies not be shut down immediately by governments for fear of exposure of such a secret? Instead of having them killed off, private companies seeking to go to space for commercial or tourist purposes are flourishing.

It is for THIS reason that I remain skeptical of the idea that the earth is a flat plane. There might be others- again if I were of a scientific mind- but I am not, so I focus on what I know, and I know that throughout the course of history millions of people have been killed simply for the name by which they call God...yet there is a global political conspiracy to hide the shape of the very planet these problems exist on?

I just have yet to be convinced.

Thank you.

[Pete Svarrior]

I ran into a flat-earther (what do you call yourselves?)

Sorry, I realise this doesn't address the key point of your thread, but just to answer that bit real quick: "Flat Earther" (not necessarily capitalised, although frequently stylised that way here) or "FE'er" for short is probably the most commonly used term here. It's reasonably well understood in other Flat Earth communities too.

[Disgraced_Shield]

Thank you for that.

I'm also finding now that the ice wall that is supposed to encircle the disk that is earth is supposed to be guarded by the various Navies of the world? If so, that broadens the group of people on the inside of this particular conspiracy. Over the course of just a few decades, you're adding tens of thousands of military personnel to the mix. More chance to leakage of information, more chance of the entire thing being exposed.

The geopolitical implications of this vast conspiracy are unfathomable. You're talking about a level of cooperation that simply cannot exist- and proof of this claim can be obtained by even the most rudimentary study of history and its conflicts.

Again, I am not a student of science. I'm questioning the FE theory based on what the entire thing requires to operate- Human cooperation.

Across Religion
Across political boundaries.
Across social structures
Across political climate change.
Across time.

A secret between two or three or a hundred people for a year or two is easily kept.
Thousands of people over the course of hundreds of years? I can't believe that is even possible.

[sandokhan]

I can't believe that is even possible.

But it is possible.

The controversy/debate about the shape of the Earth is just the tip of the iceberg: the conspirators had to falsify the entire chronology of history in order to reach their goals.

They created the entire university system, the curriculum from its very first inception, they wrote the Bible and offered to the world...

As an example here is the inquisition at work right on the campus of UC Berkeley:

Many physicists who believe Einstein’s theory of relativity to be flawed have not been able to get their papers accepted for publication in most scientific journals. Eminent scientists are intimidated and warned that they may spoil their career prospects, if they openly opposed Einstein’s relativity. Distinguished British physicist Dr Louis Essen stated that physicists seem to abandon their critical faculties when considering relativity. He also remarked: ‘Students are told that the theory must be accepted although they cannot expect to understand it. They are encouraged right at the beginning of their careers to forsake science in favor of dogma.'


One of the most recent [suppression stories] comes from a new NPA member who, when doing graduate work in physics around 1960, heard the following story from his advisor: While working for his Ph.D. in physics at the University of California in Berkeley in the late 1920s, this advisor had learned that all physics departments in the U.C. system were being purged of all critics of Einsteinian relativity. Those who refused to change their minds were ordered to resign, and those who would not were fired, on slanderous charges of anti-Semitism. The main cited motivation for this unspeakably unethical procedure was to present a united front before grant-giving agencies, the better to obtain maximal funds. This story does not surprise me. There has been a particularly vicious attitude towards critics of Einsteinian relativity at U.C. Berkeley ever since.

And here is how the original set of Maxwell's equations was eliminated/censored from public view:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1639521#msg1639521



To find out how the entire chronology of history up to 1800 AD has been forged/falsified:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1638504#msg1638504


I'm also finding now that the ice wall that is supposed to encircle the disk...

There is no ice wall: much of the information contained in the official FAQ is completely wrong.

http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=3422.msg77284#msg77284

[Rayzor]

A secret between two or three or a hundred people for a year or two is easily kept.
Thousands of people over the course of hundreds of years? I can't believe that is even possible.

It's not possible,  because there is no conspiracy to hide the shape of the earth.  It is what it is.  A globe.   There are those who choose to believe it's flat, and good luck to them,  everyone is entitled to their own version of reality.

Where it get's interesting, is the convoluted thought processes required to maintain the belief in flat earth, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. 

Conspiracies are real enough,  but flat earth isn't a real one.

[sandokhan]

A globe.

You no longer have that option: the faint young sun and the comets' tail paradoxes tell us that the age of the heliocentrical planetary system is much younger than previously thought.


FAINT YOUNG SUN PARADOX:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1707290#msg1707290

It has not been solved at all, notwithstanding the best efforts of the most competent of scientists, nor can it be solved.


DATING METHODS OF THE PAST: ISOTOPES VS. COMETS:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1640735#msg1640735

The age of the Solar System must be less than the estimated upper age of comets.

Halley's comet, for example, could not exist as a comet for more than 120 revolutions.

120 x 75 = 9000 years



“It's a mystery to me how comets work at all,” said Donald Brownlee, principle investigator of NASA's Stardust Mission.
 
“The remarkable properties of comets are not even remotely explicable by any of the numerous ad hoc assumptions of ‘modern’ comet theory.”
— R A Lyttleton

"Comets are perhaps at once the most spectacular and the least well understood members of the solar system."
M. Neugebauer, Jet Propulsion Laboratory


Electric Comet Theory:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1619877#msg1619877

[Disgraced_Shield]

Again, looking past the science- because your science says one thing, and other science says another, you can't have a flat earth without a conspiracy.

You can't have a conspiracy this old, and this big, in the face of blossoming technologies and human awareness.

If the scientific data can't kill the flat earth theory, the political one absolutely does.

You're asserting that entire centuries of history have been rewritten, altered, and forged to protect a secret. Centuries encompassing major leaps in technological, scientific, and social enlightenment, an assertion I can't get behind.

I ask how a secret this big can be kept, and you tell me it's because its part of a bigger secret, and that doesn't compute.

You mention suppressed scientific data. Okay. Maybe. Maybe people are having their careers threatened for rubbing against the grain. Keep in mind though that certain elements of the scientific community at some point got behind the idea of Eugenics- so rubbing against the grain isn't always a great idea. Not only that, but you tell me that elements of the scientific community are members of a conspiracy to hide 'truth' for some reason, that they could be beholden to a secret society that dictates what is taught.

What's to say though, that these suppressed papers and studies aren't part of a conspiracy of their own, that the authors weren't beholden to people somewhere else?

Going back to the human aspect of this thing, you're still putting your faith into a systematic lie that is way too big to have succeeded. You're talking about the need for hundreds of thousands of people over the course of documented history keeping their mouths shut, even in the face of political upheaval, war, and technological advancements.

Exactly how big do you think this conspiracy is? Who is behind it? What is their motivation? What tactics do they use to prevent discovery in the age where I can unlock my car doors via satellite from 100 miles away with my cell phone?

[Disgraced_Shield]

I've also followed a bunch of the links you provided, and I've come to another conclusion.
Since the burden of proof is on your shoulders as challengers of the accepted and generally universal concept of an earth that is an oblate spheroid, you have to discount ALL photographs from either side of the argument.

Since one of the main points you continue to make is that all photos depicting a globular earth are doctored, in the interest of solid scientific method, you also need to assume that all photographs of that support a flat earth are also doctored, or you're cherry-picking arguments to suit your own needs.

You simply cannot refute any and all photos from one side of the argument, dismissing them as faked, while openly embracing ones that support another side just because they lend credence to your own ideas.

"All of your proof is doctored. All of my proof is good."

I will admit that I am completely in the camp of the spherical earth. I don't believe for a second that the earth is flat, although I've never shied away from a debate, and often relish the chance to be proven wrong so I can learn something.
But going back to my original points, I can't accept the FE model of the earth because it relies too heavily on a complete divergence from human nature.

[Rayzor]

A globe.

You no longer have that option: the faint young sun and the comets' tail paradoxes tell us that the age of the heliocentrical planetary system is much younger than previously thought.

I will follow up those links and see where it leads,  I always enjoy reading your posts, and let us see where the discussion leads.

But,  before embarking on the discussion of whether or not a conspiracy exists,  it should be recognized at the outset, that it it not logically possible to disprove conspiracy,  since any evidence of disproof can be considered part of the conspiracy.

So,  since, theoretically, conspiracy can never be disproved, only ever proved, is it any wonder that conspiracy theories tend to multiply and persist.

In the case of the flat earth conspiracy,  we face the same conundrum. 

Argument from personal incredulity,  might be invalid most of the time,  maybe this is one time it really is a valid argument.

[Jura-Glenlivet]

I am with the Shield on this. Generations of people from all walks of life all falling under this spell and no one breaking ranks, and for what? Some measure of control.
As yet I fail to see what use the controllers of the earth would gain by such an elaborate subterfuge, the whole of astronomy, most physics, geology, telecommunication, cartography, meteorology, historians the militaries, etc. not to mention the whole political system, policed with such inhuman meticulousness as to beggar belief. When early on they could have said “hey the worlds flat, and used all their resources to convince us of something else they wanted us to believe, the golden rule of lying, surely being, keep it simple.

It got me to wondering why people go for this complete change of world view, and having read quite a few responses over time, I think the link below holds a clue.




I remember a friend telling me once that when she read Carl Sagan "...we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people." (I prefer Monty Pythons Galaxy song for the same effect) That she felt ill, like she was standing on a cliffs edge, and then a feeling of intense sadness and almost horror.

This sensation of insignificance especially amongst those bought up to believe that the whole universe revolves specifically around them, to the extent that the being that supposedly designed and made the whole thing, watches their every move, can be so profoundly shocking (I think) as to induce the type of mania we see above. That this mania takes the form of an all pervasive and controlling force is a reflection of the kind of mind set they are used to, i.e. that of a religion.

That there are things that science struggles to answer (faint young sun, dark matter etc.) is the nature and attraction of science, a recently evolved member of the ape community struggling to understand its surroundings. To throw up ones hands when the answers don’t come easily and go back to a book written a few thousand years ago by some desert dwellers is capitulation.

[geckothegeek]

Thank you for that.

I'm also finding now that the ice wall that is supposed to encircle the disk that is earth is supposed to be guarded by the various Navies of the world? If so, that broadens the group of people on the inside of this particular conspiracy. Over the course of just a few decades, you're adding tens of thousands of military personnel to the mix. More chance to leakage of information, more chance of the entire thing being exposed.

The geopolitical implications of this vast conspiracy are unfathomable. You're talking about a level of cooperation that simply cannot exist- and proof of this claim can be obtained by even the most rudimentary study of history and its conflicts.

Again, I am not a student of science. I'm questioning the FE theory based on what the entire thing requires to operate- Human cooperation.

Across Religion
Across political boundaries.
Across social structures
Across political climate change.
Across time.

A secret between two or three or a hundred people for a year or two is easily kept.
Thousands of people over the course of hundreds of years? I can't believe that is even possible.

First of all, I noticed your comment that the "so-called ice ring" is guarded by "all the Navies of the world." I hadn't heard this before. But the general "flat earth" comment is that the guards are from NASA. I haven't seen any comments as to who guarded it before NASA ?

Also the main theme of flat earth seems to be to disregard all science and any evidence, especially photographs as "false" or "fakes". Some "flat earthers" have accused all scientists, and especially NASA as being demons, demon possessed , satan worshippers  or satanic persons if they "believe" that the earth is a globe.

[rayjett]

I also am a history major and my first question (when I began to take it seriously) was "just how MANY people who are alive today would have to know to keep this SECRET of SECRETS. Well the ONLY people to actually go up in space are NASA astronauts. And there is presumably one or more handlers for the astronauts. And maybe their bosses. That's still just a handful of people. (100-1000? out of 6 billion.)  An airplane pilot or navigator before a cartain date (1990's before everything became "automated" with "GPS") might have figured out that SOMETHING wasn't right, but who'd he tell? (Remember how they treated the first UFO spotting pilots?) Now as far as the world's governmtnts etc. being told I don't know. A small group (like say the Jesuit hierarchy) could have kept that secret until well into last century. Once people started exploring Antartica and once we started launching rockets then I am sure the secret was shared with the powers that be if not before. The "WHY" is easy:  CONTROL. How many of us have been waiting for the "star trek" world to become a reality? We have been pretty much distracted from reality. If you really think about it nothing has changed only your outlook. And now that you (are beginning to) see the truth you can start to ask the right questions in life. It's amazing to just go outside and look at the sun and/or moon.............

[Disgraced_Shield]

rayjet- if it WERE only a thousand or so people....maybe.
But earlier in this post thread, there was mention made of an entire century of history being edited and rewritten. Our forays into space haven't been going on for that long. Conspiracy theorists will be happy to tell you that this goes back to way before you and I time.

But looking at the 'control' aspect...that could one possibly hope to gain from something like this? What are the political and social aspects of control that could be levied against the masses with this particular piece of information? The information alone doesn't carry much of a payout.

Now lets discount history and the idea that centuries might have had their history rewritten, that conspirators were the ones that wrote the bible....etc.

Lets instead look to the future. Privatized space flight. A quick online search will yield literally dozens of companies from all over the world with their hands in that particular gain, either for commercial or tourism purposes. How can these companies be allowed to operate if they're threatening whomever is behind this- assuming they have such a powerful grip on our perceptions? Why wasn't Felix Baumgartner killed in a freak auto accident?

Lets pick further and go back to NASA.

....How can they be behind it when Russia has also sent humans into space? You'd have to tell me that the Russian and US Governments are in bed with each other on this one. These two countries couldn't agree on the color of the sky- if only for the sake of arguing it, and this has been the case long before space flight was a thing.

NASA doesn't have a monopoly on national space flight- and the concept is starting to become a plaything for the super-wealthy. It would seem to me if someone was really behind the curtain and trying to control what we know about the shape of the earth, they'd be awfully puckered in the butt right now, and more efforts would be taken to ground 'us.'

[Disgraced_Shield]

First of all, I noticed your comment that the "so-called ice ring" is guarded by "all the Navies of the world." I hadn't heard this before. But the general "flat earth" comment is that the guards are from NASA. I haven't seen any comments as to who guarded it before NASA ?

Apologies if this is inaccurate, but the chap that I ran into on another web site made this claim. It was really my first exposure to this whole 'world.' It was his commentary that drove me here, since when I asked him to clarify or explain.....he vanished, forcing me to look...well....here.

[Hoppy]

You are handicapped by the fact you are facing a conspiracy so monstrous that you cannot believe it exists.

https://m.facebook.com/notes/fred-earl-anthony-wyatt/new-world-order-elite-illuminati-government-quotes/10151761372229621

Read up on some of this stuff. Maybe some truth will penetrate your thinking.

[shaunm1963]

Mention is made of a conspiracy/cover-up/secret.

It isn't needed.

How many people in the 'western world' actually believed for years that the Native Americans were the primitive, scalp-collecting aggressors as 'seen' in cowboy films?

Most.

It wasn't that we were all told that that was the case. The spread of propaganda and brain-washing through the medium of film, TV and radio a 'belief' was established that has lasted for decades. Only now, because some people are asking the right questions are the real truths coming to light. Still, these real facts about native peoples current and historical are not widely broadcast. Although Native Americans Day was established, we still have Thanksgiving Day. There is also Un-Thanksgiving Day because there are people that claim that the real truth about the way the Native Americans were treated has been kept 'hidden', kept a 'secret', kept from the public 'MIND' for a very long time...it isn't difficult in the tight confines of this relatively small arena to sell an idea, to create a truth, so that it becomes fact, unquestionable....because why should the rulers make something up...

The moon-landings are in question.....look at the data being presented across the web and other media ....everything from cross-hairs, shadows, dust, same landscape different mission, and other issues...(see my comments elsewhere re. Dara O'Braian/Brian Cox re. current spacesuits only suitable for low orbit use), yet we have supposedly gone to the moon....!

And others on this thread have mentioned the treatment of scientists who don't comply with given dogma. Most comments disregarded, however.

You have to ask questions and not just believe what you think you know to be true simply, and especially because, the official, funded, franchised 'experts' tell you it's so. Have you read Darwin's Origin of Species?  Have you read Darwin's own comments on his ideas? If the book was only written today, and no concept of evolution existed, and it was pushed out on the web with the YouTuber attitude of question and doubt, do you really think that the world would be saying yes, Darwin is right???

No!

The so-called experts are all in the same staff-room. They do not allow any other viewpoint, no challenge to their authority. Very similar to the catholic Church a 1000 years ago, very similar to islamic doctrine today (don't attack me over this comment....islamic doctrine DOES NOT ALLOW FREE INTERPRETATION), very similar to any totalitarian state control.

I read a book years ago, in a series of science books by those thinkers who were not allowed in to the system, written by a scientist who studied the remains of mammoths up in the mountains of Norway, frozen and completely covered by marine shells...............his idea that, considering that there are so many references from across the 'Globe!!' (ha ha!) from different cultures referencing a global FLOOD, perhaps, he suggested, that there was indeed something in it........can anyone explain the presence of marine shells up in the Norwegian mountains??? But his idea was quashed and he was not allowed to practice in the Uni system. The truth has been established AND eventually they will discover the real reason for marine shells up mountains,  reasons that FIT-IN with this established framework of thought/belief.

The truth also includes a Big Bang Theory (and I don't mean Penny, Sheldon, and co.). A theory which is the root of all the rest of the truth, a theory which can never be proven true, a theory which has to somehow explain how something can come from nothing and (one day) suddenly come into existence.............isn't that bordering on magic? Almost begs that there is a creating pointy finger behind it all to help things along..........



However, I'm sure those that think everything is just right, will dismiss all these arguments and keep their heads in the sand. It's true that in this VILLAGE that "questions are a burden to others, the answers a prison to oneself......", and for all those that don't want their beliefs ruffled, "a still tongue makes a happy life"



However, I urge you all: Follow the Signs, Number Six

[Disgraced_Shield]

Saying that to question the existence of a conspiracy is a result of widespread propaganda seems a little watery to me. Nor does it address the mechanics of the conspiracy itself which I brought to the table.

Telling someone he's a sucker when he asks a question doesn't answer the question.

As a historian, I know full well how propaganda worked, and in fact continues to work on the populace.
However, also as a historian, I know full well the political landscape of the entire world truly doesn't lend itself to the keeping of such a massive secret, strictly because of the main component of it: Humans.

For the sake of fairness, I'm not even looking at the scientific evidence. BOTH the RE and the FE people are saying the exact same thing:

"Scientific evidence that supports your theory is wrong, doctored, and falsified. Scientific evidence that supports my theory is true, indisputable, and able to be replicated."

That being said, I'm ignoring it here. All of it. Ten minutes of research on the web could net published evidence that the earth was a tetrahedron made of cobalt if you were so inclined to look for it. That doesn't lend it any validity though.

From a strictly mechanical point of view, the FE theory can't hold water because it depends on a collaboration across time and geo-political boundaries that has got to be colossal in size.
One of your compatriots tells me that satellites and clouds are suspended artificially by cosmic-ray devices.
Suppose they are. Where are they? How many are there? Who installs, controls and maintains them?

Suppose sustained rocket and space flight is impossible as is also maintained on this site.
How many people have been involved in the program that have got to be involved in the conspiracy for it to work? How many members of the space program in a multitude of nations need to be 'in on it?'

....you're talking about thousands of people at so many levels of human societal existence that   the 'possibility' of a leak or a tell-all exposure evolves into a 'probability' in a matter of minutes and a 'sure thing' in just a space of a couple of days.

Still more- Privatized space flight, dozens of companies across nations are planning on space flights for commercial and tourist purposes. Wouldn't the conspirators have to come to these people on the sly and say "Yeah. uh...it's all a sham. You can't actually fly into space. Also, shh."

If that happens....more people are in the fold.

If this was still the 17 or 1800s and technology was still in a relative infancy, the idea that the whole thing is fabricated might hold more plausibility. But in an age where the answers to damn near every question you can think of asking are in your pocket, in an age where over a thousand active man-made satellites are in orbit around the earth- both government and private- you're starting to make it seem like there are more people IN the loop than OUT of it.

Hell, we're in an age where famous people can't have sex without it being on the internet in a few hours, yet a conspiracy that hides the shape of the planet I live on has yet to have the lid blown off it? 

[Charming Anarchist]

Let's say that the science you're citing holds water. I cannot debate any of that, as I am not well versed in science. I was a history teacher- which is where my question derives from.

You are a history teacher and you can not understand how an entire populace can be deceived?  Is that some kind of joke???

That reflects upon you more than anything else.  No need for science indeed!  All you have to do is look at the inordinate number of shills here in this forum and ask the obvious question:  What the hell are they doing here??   What are YOU doing here???

[Disgraced_Shield]

Let's say that the science you're citing holds water. I cannot debate any of that, as I am not well versed in science. I was a history teacher- which is where my question derives from.

You are a history teacher and you can not understand how an entire populace can be deceived?  Is that some kind of joke???

That reflects upon you more than anything else.  No need for science indeed!  All you have to do is look at the inordinate number of shills here in this forum and ask the obvious question:  What the hell are they doing here??   What are YOU doing here???

A: I understand how people can be deceived. The joke here is that you seem unable to grasp the idea that something so big would implode on itself. To simplify it- a balloon that gets too big will pop. The more technology and knowledge we have puts more air into that balloon- IF said balloon (conspiracy) exists. You're basically telling me that everyone in history except for a few hundred people on a web site have been the butt of a long con.

B: I'm here because I wanted information. I wanted to meet the people behind an idea. I'm here because I met a FE proponent on another web site and started doing my research. A legitimate scientific society will welcome a chance to teach others. You're just looking to run out everyone that doesn't agree with you. That's not science, that's a cult. If you're unwilling to debate, discuss, and yes accept new ideas of your own, then it looks like I came to the wrong place.

C: I don't like being dismissed as a shill any more than you like being dismissed as a kook. I'm willing to engage in debate because I enjoy learning. Even if I don't learn about the subject itself, I learn about the people around me. That's science. You're willing to corner up with your hackles raised at the first sign if dissension. That's telling.

[Charming Anarchist]

Even if I don't learn about the subject itself, I learn about the people around me.

The same goes with us.  You people are interesting, to say the least. 

For the life of me, I can not imagine why a sane person would commit as much effort as you have into discussing "science" that is more-than-obviously above your head.