Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #280 on: June 22, 2014, 01:29:31 AM »
It costs money to think ideas through.
How much does it cost to realize that the great outdoors are dirty and dirt doesn't do solar panels any favors?
As opposed to putting solar panels inside walls where there is no sun?

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Offline markjo

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #281 on: June 22, 2014, 02:04:11 AM »
It costs money to think ideas through.
How much does it cost to realize that the great outdoors are dirty and dirt doesn't do solar panels any favors?
Dirt rubs off really easily. It can even wash off with rain.
How often does it rain in southern California, Arizona or New Mexico?  Also, dirt + rain = mud.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #282 on: June 22, 2014, 02:27:38 AM »
Dirt rubs off really easily. It can even wash off with rain.
But then we either need to very frequently (and very thoroughly) clean the roadways or accept that their effectiveness (of the solar panels and LEDs, at least) is going to be very variable. I'm convinced that the solar panels would be a relatively insignificant contribution to the grid anyway, so let's not worry about that; but do you really want to accept road markings that may turn out to be unreliable?

@Lorddave (sorry, too lazy to quote specific posts), fair enough, if we assume that the power to do all that stuff doesn't come from the solar panels themselves (my assumption that this would be the case comes from the Solar Roadways guy saying that if we covered all roads in mainland USA with solar panels, we could power the entire country solely off of that, as well as other claims on their page such as "we won't have to rely on foreign oil anymore!"), then everything is possible and merely highly impractical; but if that's the case, dare I ask why we even bother with the solar panels in the first place? A lit and heated road would be much cheaper, and the solar panel output is largely insignificant anyway. Why introduce an expensive and fragile element to the project if it doesn't serve much of a purpose?

How much does it cost to realize that the great outdoors are dirty and dirt doesn't do solar panels any favors?
As opposed to putting solar panels inside walls where there is no sun?
Well, there is also the option of putting them above the ground (e.g. on the roofs of houses). Sure, there will still be some dirt, but it's nothing compared to what's going on on a roadway.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2014, 02:33:09 AM by pizaaplanet »
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #283 on: June 22, 2014, 02:38:02 AM »
LOL  Shade trees lining a solar road/sidewalk.


...no solar panels on the roofs, though, because yes.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Offline rooster

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #284 on: June 22, 2014, 02:41:08 AM »
How often does it rain in southern California, Arizona or New Mexico?
Then get a sprinkler system. Honestly, you're not very imaginative.
 
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Also, dirt + rain = mud.
Sure, if it's stagnant but they already have a water run-off system planned.

...no solar panels on the roofs, though, because yes.
They keep saying it's less about a practical place to put solar panels and more about updating asphalt roads.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #285 on: June 22, 2014, 02:56:51 AM »
...no solar panels on the roofs, though, because yes.
They keep saying it's less about a practical place to put solar panels and more about updating asphalt roads.
Which is problematic. They don't want to come up with the best solution to problems, they simply want to force their own idea through.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #286 on: June 22, 2014, 02:58:10 AM »
They keep saying it's less about a practical place to put solar panels and more about updating asphalt roads.

By update, they apparently mean switching to an expensive and exceedingly bad alternative? Why not make asphalt hexagons? Why should we pave roads with rare resources that could be put to much better use?

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Offline rooster

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #287 on: June 22, 2014, 02:59:35 AM »
Which is problematic. They don't want to come up with the best solution to problems, they simply want to force their own idea through.
Unless they think it is the best solution. Maybe there are better solutions to asphalt roads but I don't see anyone else trying.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #288 on: June 22, 2014, 03:00:40 AM »
Dirt rubs off really easily. It can even wash off with rain.
But then we either need to very frequently (and very thoroughly) clean the roadways or accept that their effectiveness (of the solar panels and LEDs, at least) is going to be very variable. I'm convinced that the solar panels would be a relatively insignificant contribution to the grid anyway, so let's not worry about that; but do you really want to accept road markings that may turn out to be unreliable?
Well here's the question: How come dust and dirt don't obstruct the paint?  It's the same problem.  It's not like dust avoids  settling on paint but would settle on glass.

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@Lorddave (sorry, too lazy to quote specific posts), fair enough, if we assume that the power to do all that stuff doesn't come from the solar panels themselves (my assumption that this would be the case comes from the Solar Roadways guy saying that if we covered all roads in mainland USA with solar panels, we could power the entire country solely off of that, as well as other claims on their page such as "we won't have to rely on foreign oil anymore!"), then everything is possible and merely highly impractical; but if that's the case, dare I ask why we even bother with the solar panels in the first place? A lit and heated road would be much cheaper, and the solar panel output is largely insignificant anyway. Why introduce an expensive and fragile element to the project if it doesn't serve much of a purpose?
I disagree that the solar panels would be insignificant.  It would require a very high quantity but I think it would be a large amount of energy. 
It's financially impractical but I like the idea of our roads doing more than just providing a flat surface to drive on.    Plus I think the glass would provide an easier to maintain roadway than asphalt.  But I have no data to back it up.

Also, having utility tunnels next to/under every road can do nothing but be helpful.


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How much does it cost to realize that the great outdoors are dirty and dirt doesn't do solar panels any favors?
As opposed to putting solar panels inside walls where there is no sun?
Well, there is also the option of putting them above the ground (e.g. on the roofs of houses). Sure, there will still be some dirt, but it's nothing compared to what's going on on a roadway.
Putting them above the road would make roads into tunnels and be less than visually pleasing for most.
Putting them on roofs is great.  But no government or public agency can force such a thing.  Which is the problem.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #289 on: June 22, 2014, 03:02:53 AM »
Putting them on roofs is great.  But no government or public agency can force such a thing.  Which is the problem.

Uhh.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #290 on: June 22, 2014, 03:26:50 AM »
Putting them on roofs is great.  But no government or public agency can force such a thing.  Which is the problem.

Uhh.

Let me rephrase:
It would be publicly unpopular to mandate solar panels on privately owned roofs.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #291 on: June 22, 2014, 03:28:38 AM »
Let me rephrase:
It would be publicly unpopular to mandate solar panels on privately owned roofs.

Well, that really just depends on the area. I'm pretty sure there are some cities in California that would jizz themselves with smugness if solar panels were in the building code.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #292 on: June 22, 2014, 03:45:13 AM »
Which is problematic. They don't want to come up with the best solution to problems, they simply want to force their own idea through.
Unless they think it is the best solution. Maybe there are better solutions to asphalt roads but I don't see anyone else trying.
Do you mean like concrete roads?  You know, sorta like what you would need to replace the asphalt road with as a base for the solar tiles?
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

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Offline Shmeggley

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #293 on: June 22, 2014, 04:09:26 AM »
PP thinks he knows everything.
Nah, but I know basic electronic and electrical engineering, since it's vaguely related to my field of study. And precisely because I don't know everything, I refer you to the judgement of those much more proficient in these fields than myself.

Right, you provided a Thunderf00t link which Solar Roadways has already made a rebuttal to,

Just "posting a rebuttal" doesn't counter all the claims against an argument. Their rebuttal was prettty weak and mostly consisted of speculation about the amazing thing they haven't built yet.

Eg:

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What will an earthquake do to a Solar Roadway?

Basically, any such force that could destroy an asphalt or concrete road would have a similar result with a Solar Roadway. Power will not be lost however: only the damaged panels will stop producing.

They somehow magically know that their power distribution system is impervious to earthquakes. This alone is an innovation given the damage caused to existing power networks during such a catastrophe.

I'm pretty sure if it were impossible it would not have gotten as far as it has.

Yeah you might hope so.

The difference between impossible and improbable is so slender one could barely fit a cigarette paper between them.

It is possible to cover the (USA) country's roads in solar panels. As a consequence the country will be bankrupt. As a consequence the nations roads will be much worse (for driving on).

In an earthquake they will be absolutely fucked, because instead of just filling in cracks and repaving, they'll have to repair wiring, rebuild the maintenance channel, their drainage channels, and only then will they be able to bolt on new panels. It'll probably take 5 or 10 times as long to fix as a regular road.

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Offline rooster

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #294 on: June 22, 2014, 04:26:19 AM »
Do you mean like concrete roads?  You know, sorta like what you would need to replace the asphalt road with as a base for the solar tiles?
Disadvantages of Concrete Roadways
Paving cost: The paving cost of the concrete road is little higher compared to asphalt paving.
Maintenance Problem: In case the concrete road breaks, the whole concrete slab needs to be replaced.
Safety features: In rainy and the winter season vehicles tend to slip or slide on concrete road due to rain and snow. (Well that's kind of a deal breaker right there)

They have some advantages but not many and definitely nothing significant. They boast about long durability but I rarely ever see a beautiful expanse of concrete road, it's mostly janky af where it's all roughly patched together like a quilt.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2014, 04:47:38 AM by rooster »

Offline Shmeggley

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #295 on: June 22, 2014, 04:44:05 AM »
Don't know if it's been brought up yet, but how well will this work on curved roads? If your road goes over a hill for example, aren't the gaps going to get bigger? And at the bottoms of hills, the gaps could close completely and jam the edges, no? I suppose you could have different sized tiles depending on the situation, but of course that's going to add yet another complication.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #296 on: June 22, 2014, 04:50:33 AM »
Disadvantages of Concrete Roadways
Paving cost: The paving cost of the concrete road is little higher compared to asphalt paving.
Maintenance Problem: In case the concrete road breaks, the whole concrete slab needs to be replaced.
Umm... You do realize that the solar roadway is essentially built on top of a concrete roadway, don't you?
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

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Offline Shmeggley

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #297 on: June 22, 2014, 05:07:06 AM »
Well here's the question: How come dust and dirt don't obstruct the paint?  It's the same problem.  It's not like dust avoids  settling on paint but would settle on glass.
The lines get dirty all the time. And faded. That's why we're always repainting them.

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I disagree that the solar panels would be insignificant.  It would require a very high quantity but I think it would be a large amount of energy. 

So far the numbers I've seen don't seem to support this.
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It's financially impractical but I like the idea of our roads doing more than just providing a flat surface to drive on. 
You may as well have stopped at "it's financially impractical". A lot of people like this idea, obviously, and I think it's neat too. But jetpacks are also a really neat idea.
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  Plus I think the glass would provide an easier to maintain roadway than asphalt.

Yikes no. When somebody invents a machine that busts up the broken glass on a damaged Solar Roadway and spits out fresh tiles behind it, then you can say that. They already have machines that do this for asphalt roads.

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But I have no data to back it up.

Welp.

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Also, having utility tunnels next to/under every road can do nothing but be helpful.

It's not like we really need it though. Putting stuff underground is way harder than putting it above ground, hence why we generally have power poles and telephone poles, not power and telephone tunnels.

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Offline rooster

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #298 on: June 22, 2014, 05:15:07 AM »
Umm... You do realize that the solar roadway is essentially built on top of a concrete roadway, don't you?
Sigh. And how does that matter? Concrete as the road surface is the problem, concrete as a foundation for a different road surface is not a problem.

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Offline rooster

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #299 on: June 22, 2014, 05:17:27 AM »
Don't know if it's been brought up yet, but how well will this work on curved roads? If your road goes over a hill for example, aren't the gaps going to get bigger? And at the bottoms of hills, the gaps could close completely and jam the edges, no? I suppose you could have different sized tiles depending on the situation, but of course that's going to add yet another complication.
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How do you make hills, curves, and crowns with flat hexagons?

Our first prototype was a 12-foot by 12-foot square. While it worked, its size and shape posed some problems, including the building of curves and hills.

We shrank our design to the shape of a hexagon that covers about four square feet. Our hexagon and half-hexagon (trapezoid) shapes allow us to construct curves. If we find we need other shapes for odd spaces as we progress, we will add them.