Offline model 29

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2017, 04:09:14 AM »
Don't assume then.  Go ahead and try it. 

Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2017, 04:25:21 AM »
honestly, i don't think you're really trying to understand what i'm saying, and you definitely haven't read the sources i posted with any care at all.  the paper in particular explains all of this and gives real-world examples of the phenomena that you can verify on your own.  see: section 3.  again, testing this yourself costs nothing but time and twine.  you don't have to take anyone's word for anything here.  do the experiment.

In your previous post you said "what you're failing to consider is that the night sky is not a euclidean space; it's a curved surface." Just what are you talking about? In RET the sky isn't a "curved surface". It's not a surface at all. What reason is there to think that we would see it as a surface around us? None.

What you have posted is a desperate attempt to claim that euclidean geometry doesn't apply to the universe.

you're being too literal.  or i'm not explaining myself well.  or both.

i'm not saying there's a literal surface on which everything is embedded.  i agree that the earth, moon, and sun, inhabit euclidean space.  i'm saying that the night sky is a geometric surface on which images of the sun, moon, and stars we see are projected.

think about a planetarium, which in this case is literally projecting light onto a physical surface.  why do they choose to project it onto a spherical surface?  why aren't planetariums cube-shaped?  or pyramid-shaped?  why always a spherical surface?

Don't you see how insane that is to arbitrarily declare that the celestial bodies are painted on some kind of surface? In your second post you claim that this is just how it appears to us. But why? Because astronomers need geometry to be completely different to explain how this could work? I see no reason, none at all, for why the bodies should appear to us as if they were painted on a surface. This claim is a complete astronomical fantasy.

so forget for a second about surfaces and projections and everything else, and let's just talk about how the night sky appears to you.  does it have any depth?  is the night sky 3-dimensional?  when you look at stars and the moon and all that, can you tell how far away they are by looking at them?

suppose you wanted to make a coordinate system for the night sky to be able to mark the location of everything you can see in it.  let's say you want to map the night sky or something.  how many parameters would you need to describe the location of a star in the sky/on the map?  would you need to specify depth in any way to find a star?

again, to be clear, i'm asking about the way things appear in the sky.  of course the stars are not painted onto anything.
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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2017, 04:25:56 AM »
Nirmala,

I read your message but, I am sorry, I don't really understand what you are trying to say at all, except that the large distances involved somehow make angles not work.

You are going to have to be a little more clear in why angles don't work on big scales.


The video suggests that the angle between the line connecting the earth and the moon and the line connecting the moon and the sun should be fairly sharp, say somewhere between 30 and 45 degrees. But if you draw the geometry to scale, you will discover that the angle between those two lines is extremely close to 90 degrees. With the light coming in from the west at almost 90 degrees to the moon up in the sky, the light and dark areas would be just as they were observed in the video.

If you did draw a line at 45 degrees to the line connecting the observer on the earth to the moon and then put the sun 93,000,000 miles away on that line, the sun would be way below the horizon, and the video would have to have been taken at night.

Try actually drawing something using a smaller scale with say a 1/32 inch earth, a small dot for the moon an inch away, and the sun 3 and 1/2 inches in diameter 30 feet away. Maybe if you actually drew it out and then imagined standing on the sphere of the tiny earth (humor me here) facing almost 90 degrees away from that distant sun, and then look up at the even tinier moon which is being lit up by that sun 30 feet away to the side.

If you can't visualize it, then you can't. But the geometry works for a model of the earth and sun in keeping with the round earth theory. And lo and behold, it actually corresponds to what the video shows! What a coincidence! Or maybe the round earth model with a sun 93 million miles is simply correct.

I have never seen any reasonable or consistent explanation for the phases of the moon with a flat earth model....and as the video suggests, the angles do not work if the sun is as close at it might appear to be. So which is true? The simple and consistent explanation using simple geometry, or the unexplained mystery that the moon's shape just changes up in the sky with no discernible relationship to the sun's light?

Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2017, 04:31:56 AM »
Tom, I have noticed that you are quite willing to question the information in the posts put up on here by round earth people, but that you rarely offer any explanations that actually make sense using a flat earth model. On the discusssion you and I had about flight paths in the southern hemisphere, you kept asking me for more and more data. And I provided it. But you never once presented either a flat earth map that matched the data or contradictory data that somehow supported your position.

And on here, you keep doubting and questioning the explanations offered for what is observed in the video, but you don't offer your own explanation.

Why do you think the moon appeared the way it did in the video? How do you explain that the angles do not "appear" correct?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2017, 05:57:53 AM »
Don't assume then.  Go ahead and try it.

It is night right now and I would need to find a time when the moon and sun are both in the sky together. By the time this happens I will probably have forgotten all about your experiment. It is really up to you to perform your own proposed experiments if you are trying to prove something that might help your argument, not ask your opponent to.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 06:24:14 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2017, 06:14:01 AM »
honestly, i don't think you're really trying to understand what i'm saying, and you definitely haven't read the sources i posted with any care at all.  the paper in particular explains all of this and gives real-world examples of the phenomena that you can verify on your own.  see: section 3.  again, testing this yourself costs nothing but time and twine.  you don't have to take anyone's word for anything here.  do the experiment.

What am I supposed to do in this experiment? Here is the quote again:

    “...the line connecting the horns of the moon, between its first quarter and full moon,
    for instance, does not appear to be at all perpendicular to the direction from sun to
    moon; we apparently think of this direction as being a curved line. Fix this direction
    by stretching a piece of string taut in front of your eye; however unlikely it may have
    to you at first you will now perceive that the condition of perpendicularity is satisfied”

Perhaps you can rephrase what we are supposed to do in this experiment. We hold up the string and align the ends with the moon and sun and pull it taught in front of our eyes? That would just create a straight line path between the sun and the moon.

Quote
i'm not saying there's a literal surface on which everything is embedded.  i agree that the earth, moon, and sun, inhabit euclidean space.  i'm saying that the night sky is a geometric surface on which images of the sun, moon, and stars we see are projected.

Why is there a geometric surface on which the images of the sun, moon, and stars are projected? You are just saying that it happens because it happens, without any real explanation.

If you create a scene in Maya or another 3D modeling program and place little balls all around your camera, are we looking at something projected on a "celestial sphere" when we pan around and look at those balls? Would it really make a difference if those balls are 1000 units away or 100,000,000 units away?

Quote
think about a planetarium, which in this case is literally projecting light onto a physical surface.  why do they choose to project it onto a spherical surface?  why aren't planetariums cube-shaped?  or pyramid-shaped?  why always a spherical surface?

A planetarium is just a movie on a curved screen. When we look up at the universe we are not looking at a movie on a screen. Can't you see that there is a difference?

Quote
so forget for a second about surfaces and projections and everything else, and let's just talk about how the night sky appears to you.  does it have any depth?  is the night sky 3-dimensional?  when you look at stars and the moon and all that, can you tell how far away they are by looking at them?

No, you cannot tell how far away they are.

Quote
suppose you wanted to make a coordinate system for the night sky to be able to mark the location of everything you can see in it.  let's say you want to map the night sky or something.  how many parameters would you need to describe the location of a star in the sky/on the map?  would you need to specify depth in any way to find a star?

again, to be clear, i'm asking about the way things appear in the sky.  of course the stars are not painted onto anything.

The stars would just be around you in euclidean space -- like in the 3D model example I mentioned above where you have some balls surrounding you. You look up, and you see some balls. You look right, and you see some more balls. If two of those objects were arrows pointing at each other, you would see them pointing at each other; you would not see them pointing away from each other. I don't see where the celestial sphere is a necessary consequence of this.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 04:28:22 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2017, 07:52:28 AM »
So you admit you don’t see what we’re saying (10th dan in missing the point), you won’t do the simple experiment that Gary and others have offered as you don’t know when the moon will be in the daytime sky, well the “children’s” moon is often in the sky,
 •  Look within a week or so of the date of full moon.
•  Before full moon, look for the daytime moon in the afternoon.
•  After full moon, look for the daytime moon in the morning
(waxing gibbous tonight 6th April so you are on, although being near the equinox the discrepancy won't be profound).

In the meantime answer Nirmala and my earlier point, does your model explain the problem you see with the angles?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 10:59:15 AM by Jura-Glenlivet »
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2017, 08:33:30 PM »
So you admit you don’t see what we’re saying (10th dan in missing the point), you won’t do the simple experiment that Gary and others have offered as you don’t know when the moon will be in the daytime sky, well the “children’s” moon is often in the sky,
 •  Look within a week or so of the date of full moon.
•  Before full moon, look for the daytime moon in the afternoon.
•  After full moon, look for the daytime moon in the morning
(waxing gibbous tonight 6th April so you are on, although being near the equinox the discrepancy won't be profound).

A full moon with the sun in the sky isn't supposed to ever happen in the Round Earth model. You want me to perform an experiment that cannot happen?

Why do I need to perform some kind of experiment to confirm someone else's argument? If you are making a claim that a certain experiment will confirm your argument, YOU need to do the experiment.

Quote
In the meantime answer Nirmala and my earlier point, does your model explain the problem you see with the angles?

I would say that the effect is a confirmation of the long-postulated Flat Earth mechanism which places the sun lower than it actually is over a Flat Earth. There are several mechanisms which have been proposed over the years. Mechanisms have been proposed ranging from an atmospheric effect, to the Electromagnetic Accelerator which bend light rays, to a perspective effect, and further analysis and consideration would need to be conducted to say which effect this observation most strongly supports. The video in the OP shows that the sun actually does appear lower than where the moon thinks it is. If this mechanism did not exist, the sun would at all times be above the surface of the earth and night and day could not exist.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 04:07:56 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2017, 08:48:01 PM »
So you admit you don’t see what we’re saying (10th dan in missing the point), you won’t do the simple experiment that Gary and others have offered as you don’t know when the moon will be in the daytime sky, well the “children’s” moon is often in the sky,
 •  Look within a week or so of the date of full moon.
•  Before full moon, look for the daytime moon in the afternoon.
•  After full moon, look for the daytime moon in the morning
(waxing gibbous tonight 6th April so you are on, although being near the equinox the discrepancy won't be profound).

A full moon with the sun in the sky isn't supposed to ever happen in the Round Earth model. You want me to perform an experiment that cannot happen?

Incorrect. At 66.5 latitude you can see both simultaneously because the moon is not directly on the ecliptic.

Quote
Why do I need to perform some kind of experiment to confirm someone else's argument? If you are making a claim that an experiment will confirm your argument, YOU need to do the experiment.

Because you only value first hand experience?


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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2017, 09:40:30 PM »
So you admit you don’t see what we’re saying (10th dan in missing the point), you won’t do the simple experiment that Gary and others have offered as you don’t know when the moon will be in the daytime sky, well the “children’s” moon is often in the sky,
 •  Look within a week or so of the date of full moon.
•  Before full moon, look for the daytime moon in the afternoon.
•  After full moon, look for the daytime moon in the morning
(waxing gibbous tonight 6th April so you are on, although being near the equinox the discrepancy won't be profound).

A full moon with the sun in the sky isn't supposed to ever happen in the Round Earth model. You want me to perform an experiment that cannot happen?

Incorrect. At 66.5 latitude you can see both simultaneously because the moon is not directly on the ecliptic.

Quote
Why do I need to perform some kind of experiment to confirm someone else's argument? If you are making a claim that an experiment will confirm your argument, YOU need to do the experiment.

Because you only value first hand experience?

Where have I ever said that? Don't you see me quoting Rowbotham all the time?

If you have an experiment for us that will confirm something you believe to be in your favor, it is your responsibility to perform the experiment. Telling us to go here, wait this long, and do this and that to perform some experiment which you blindly assume will produce a result favorable to your argument doesn't fly. Your claim, your burden.

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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2017, 09:45:41 PM »

See you didn't even bother to read what I put.

 •  Look within a week or so of the date of full moon.
•  Before full moon, look for the daytime moon in the afternoon.
•  After full moon, look for the daytime moon in the morning
(waxing gibbous tonight 6th April so you are on, although being near the equinox the discrepancy won't be profound).

And as you are as rigorous with your experiments (which beach?) as you are with your ability to to read and reason, it wouldn't amount to much.

As has been posted before, you ask for a good deal of proof/information from us (which you ignore or misquote), but when it comes to your explanations it's all just fairy dust and conjecture.

What matters here is not which way Tom will squirm as he loses another argument, that is a given. Just that any third party who is undecided sees. I went out this evening and did the string thing (well a retractable dog lead actually) and it works, I and I suspect others will do it and come to their own conclusions. Tom, you continue searching you-tube, and never go out and actually look up, we'll be here to put you right.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 10:04:51 PM by Jura-Glenlivet »
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2017, 10:12:21 PM »
So you admit you don’t see what we’re saying (10th dan in missing the point), you won’t do the simple experiment that Gary and others have offered as you don’t know when the moon will be in the daytime sky, well the “children’s” moon is often in the sky,
 •  Look within a week or so of the date of full moon.
•  Before full moon, look for the daytime moon in the afternoon.
•  After full moon, look for the daytime moon in the morning
(waxing gibbous tonight 6th April so you are on, although being near the equinox the discrepancy won't be profound).

A full moon with the sun in the sky isn't supposed to ever happen in the Round Earth model. You want me to perform an experiment that cannot happen?

Incorrect. At 66.5 latitude you can see both simultaneously because the moon is not directly on the ecliptic.

Quote
Why do I need to perform some kind of experiment to confirm someone else's argument? If you are making a claim that an experiment will confirm your argument, YOU need to do the experiment.

Because you only value first hand experience?

Where have I ever said that? Don't you see me quoting Rowbotham all the time?

If you have an experiment for us that will confirm something you believe to be in your favor, it is your responsibility to perform the experiment. Telling us to go here, wait this long, and do this and that to perform some experiment which you blindly assume will produce a result favorable to your argument doesn't fly. Your claim, your burden.
This is what science normally is about though. Someone makes a claim based on observation and write up a theory that supports the observation. Peers test it.

We're not making any claims. We're merely repeating what has been proven over and over. You claim its impossible. You claim that a model otherwise regarded as accurate is wrong. You claim the earth is flat. The burden of proof is really on you and what we're asking of you is really, really simple.
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Offline Boots

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2017, 10:14:55 PM »
The real question is, when is sex-pest going to swoop in to the rescue.

(I've got this junker)

Low content post. Warned.

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2017, 11:39:39 PM »
People who want to know the truth will experiment.  People who want to live a delusion will use YouTube videos to confirm it.

So, Tom, how do you explain the apparent  incorrect​ angle with your flat earth theory?

I just did some experimenting with a very bright flashlight far away and a golf ball.  If I put the flashing very far away I could duplicate the angles I saw today.

 Tom, by the way you can see the moon during day right now.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 12:20:11 AM by Flatout »

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Offline Rounder

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2017, 02:38:59 AM »
Why do I need to perform some kind of experiment to confirm someone else's argument? If you are making a claim that a certain experiment will confirm your argument, YOU need to do the experiment.

If you have an experiment for us that will confirm something you believe to be in your favor, it is your responsibility to perform the experiment. Telling us to go here, wait this long, and do this and that to perform some experiment which you blindly assume will produce a result favorable to your argument doesn't fly. Your claim, your burden.

I'll tell you why we want you to perform the experiment.  If one of us does it, you won't be convinced.  If many of us did it, heck if ALL of us did it, you wouldn't be convinced.  Mabe if YOU do it, you will be convinced.  Or maybe you can show us why it doesn't mean what we think it means.

This is the same reason we so very much want the DETAILS of your eponymous experiment: some among us (who did not propose it and do not believe it) want to attempt it and either be convinced, or show you why it doesn't mean what you think it means.
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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2017, 03:20:39 AM »
i think you're still misunderstanding what i'm trying to say.  i agree that all of these objects are in 3d, euclidean space.  the path light takes between the sun and the moon is a straight line.  i'm talking about the way this straight line path appears to us based on our perspective.

it's like watching an airplane fly into and out of view.  from our perspective on the ground, it comes into view at the horizon, makes an arced path across the sky, and then goes out of view at another bit of horizon.  the airplane flies a straight line path in 3d, euclidean space, but we see that path as an arc with each endpoint on the horizon.

now imagine that the straight line path of the airplane is a beam of light.  the path of the light beam is straight, but to us it looks curved.  it's just perspective.

A planetarium is just a movie on a curved screen. When we look up at the universe we are not looking at a movie on a screen. Can't you see that there is a difference?

why a curved screen, though?  why not a cube-shaped room, or a pyramid-shaped room, or a hexagon, or any other shape?  why do they all choose a spherical shape?

No, you cannot tell how far away they are.
precisely.  the night sky doesn't appear to us to have any depth.  it looks like a surface.  so all the 3d stuff way out in 3d outer space looks to us like it's on a 2d surface.  that's why the moon looks like a circle and not like a sphere.

you say i'm giving you no explanations, but i'm really just asking you to rely on some very basic observations about how things appear to us.  does the sky look 3d to you, or 2d?  if it looks 2d, but it's actually a 3d space, then do you think this might affect how things way out in space appear to you?

ultimately, your argument implicitly assumes that all straight lines always appear straight to us.  that no straight line path can ever appear curved.  you only have to look around your room to see that this isn't the case.  or read section 3 of the paper.  or both, i guess.  i mean you're probably gonna have to look around your room at some point anyway.  might as well get two birds stoned at once.

also the more i think about it, i'm not sure the twine thing will work.  but i can't tell if that's just because i'm picturing sun-moon orientations that aren't real.  i'll get some twine and try it the next time i see the moon out at dusk.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 03:29:41 AM by garygreen »
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Offline model 29

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2017, 03:33:57 AM »
Don't assume then.  Go ahead and try it.

It is night right now and I would need to find a time when the moon and sun are both in the sky together. By the time this happens I will probably have forgotten all about your experiment. It is really up to you to perform your own proposed experiments if you are trying to prove something that might help your argument, not ask your opponent to.
They were both in the sky together today.  You don't even really need the moon to be up.  With the sun 40 degrees or so up to your right, hold a ball up to your left, note the angle of it's "phase" and then turn your head toward the sun.  You'll get the effect with the ball regardless if the moon is up.

Anyway, I already tried it.  That's why I know what the results will be. 

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2017, 04:26:43 AM »
Don't assume then.  Go ahead and try it.

It is night right now and I would need to find a time when the moon and sun are both in the sky together. By the time this happens I will probably have forgotten all about your experiment. It is really up to you to perform your own proposed experiments if you are trying to prove something that might help your argument, not ask your opponent to.
They were both in the sky together today.  You don't even really need the moon to be up.  With the sun 40 degrees or so up to your right, hold a ball up to your left, note the angle of it's "phase" and then turn your head toward the sun.  You'll get the effect with the ball regardless if the moon is up.

Anyway, I already tried it.  That's why I know what the results will be.
I tried it today too.  The phase of the tennis ball was identical to the moon.

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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2017, 07:12:56 AM »


also the more i think about it, i'm not sure the twine thing will work.  but i can't tell if that's just because i'm picturing sun-moon orientations that aren't real.  i'll get some twine and try it the next time i see the moon out at dusk.

I think it's just perspective, when I went out, the moon in respect to the sun looked canted upwards, when I stretched the lead between the two it no longer did, as has been said your eyes perceive the sky as a dome when it isn't, just an optical illusion that the string cancels.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 02:47:14 PM by Jura-Glenlivet »
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2017, 04:14:25 PM »

Quote
In the meantime answer Nirmala and my earlier point, does your model explain the problem you see with the angles?

I would say that the effect is a confirmation of the long-postulated Flat Earth mechanism which places the sun lower than it actually is over a Flat Earth. There are several mechanisms which have been proposed over the years. Mechanisms have been proposed ranging from an atmospheric effect, to the Electromagnetic Accelerator, to a perspective effect, and further analysis and consideration would need to be conducted to say which effect this observation most strongly supports. The video in the OP shows that the sun actually does appear lower than where the moon thinks it is. If this mechanism did not exist, the sun would at all times be above the horizon and night and day could not exist.

Of course there is a simpler explanation for why the sun sets and why night and day exist that does not require several bizarre and illogical possible mechanisms to explain what we observe every day. The earth rotates away from it  ::)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 09:37:07 PM by Nirmala »