[Tom Bishop]

You have not completely researched our position about the Universal Accelerator. The slight differences are caused by celestial gravitation affecting the device at different altitudes.

These things are used in geology, mining and oil exploration. From ground level. You can't explain them away with altitude differences.

I will restate what I said in an earlier post.

If the variance of gravity was actually explained by influence from "heavenly bodies", then it would be a function of altitude from the Earth's surface. (100 feet above ground, 100 feet closer to the stars). This device would still serve no purpose.

You have not shown any examples to support that positon. Who discovered a precious metal or oil deposit with a gravimeter?

Oil hunters also reportedly use dousing rods in an effort to find oil. The fact that thry might carry such equipment is not evidence that it actually works.

The image above shows quite well there are gravity differences that aren't dependent upon height. Look at the gravity increase in the ocean to the south of Africa. Or the variation on Antarctica from the spot south of Africa compare to the spot south of Australia. Or the very large decrease that covers India/Sri Lanka. It clearly isn't a simple function of height.

Any variation at sea level can be explained by the distribution of celestial gravitation above or below the earth, and does not directly conclude that the phenomenon is a result of the attraction of mass at all.

[Tom Bishop]

Going back to the topic of finding oil wells, the success-rates of the gravimeter devices that are alleged to find oil wells are dismal. In the 70's and 80's the company which invented the oil-sniffing gravimeter techniques was shown to be fraudulent. This company changed its name and still exists today.

The main reason these fraud techniques and devices are still used is because they are being used in conjunction with other techniques such as the study of seismic activity, compressed air gun methods, electrical resistivity experiments, and study of the earth's magnetic field.

Similarly, the police have been using psychics to solve murders for many years. But this is not proof of psychic powers. Psychics continue to be consulted and murder cases continue to be solved because other techniques are used in conjunction.

[Curious Squirrel]

You have not completely researched our position about the Universal Accelerator. The slight differences are caused by celestial gravitation affecting the device at different altitudes.

These things are used in geology, mining and oil exploration. From ground level. You can't explain them away with altitude differences.

I will restate what I said in an earlier post.

If the variance of gravity was actually explained by influence from "heavenly bodies", then it would be a function of altitude from the Earth's surface. (100 feet above ground, 100 feet closer to the stars). This device would still serve no purpose.

You have not shown any examples to support that positon. Who discovered a precious metal or oil deposit with a gravimeter?

Oil hunters also reportedly use dousing rods in an effort to find oil. The fact that thry might carry such equipment is not evidence that it actually works.

The image above shows quite well there are gravity differences that aren't dependent upon height. Look at the gravity increase in the ocean to the south of Africa. Or the variation on Antarctica from the spot south of Africa compare to the spot south of Australia. Or the very large decrease that covers India/Sri Lanka. It clearly isn't a simple function of height.

Any variation at sea level can be explained by the distribution of celestial gravitation above or below the earth, and does not directly conclude that the phenomenon is a result of the attraction of mass at all.

How can a consistent difference from the norm at sea level, be explained by stars which rotate in the sky above?

[mtnman]

You have not shown any examples to support that positon. Who discovered a precious metal or oil deposit with a gravimeter?

Oil hunters also reportedly use dousing rods in an effort to find oil. The fact that oil hunting hucksters might advertise that they use such equipment on their craft to the oil companies is not evidence that it actually works.

Ok, I will look for some examples to post.

Regardless of the detail of examples I may or may not find, I will restate the original question again, which no FE believer has answered.

Why would these devices exist if there was no gravity? In UA, they simply could not work.

[mtnman]

from http://www.geosoft.com/media/uploads/resources/ee_energy_2014-web.pdf

Just like the commonplace airborne gravity survey, an airborne
gravity gradiometry survey responds to the gravitational pull of
large masses on an accelerometer. Here’s how it works: Fly over a
particularly dense object, such as a rich underground ore deposit,
and you register a spike. Traditional gravimeters measure the force
exerted on them from one direction only, usually straight down. If
a survey does not fly directly over an anomaly but slightly to one
side, the odds it will detect that anomaly decrease sharply. Gravity
gradiometers, on the other hand, measure forces from the sides as
well, greatly improving the ability to detect objects.
Dan DiFrancesco, Business Development Manager for
Gravity at Lockheed Martin, U.S.A., explains that the technology
originated with a US military project in the 1970s: a navigation
tool for Trident nuclear submarines. When the Cold War ended,
the project was declassified and gradiometers became available
for commercial use.

From the Oil and Gas Journal, January 1996: http://www.ogj.com/articles/print/volume-94/issue-4/in-this-issue/refining/technology-gravimeter-yields-rock-density-for-cavern-during-operations.html

Technology Gravimeter yields rock density for cavern during operations

From Encyclopedia Britannica https://www.britannica.com/topic/Earth-exploration

In most cases, the density of sedimentary rocks increases with depth because the increased pressure results in a loss of porosity. Uplifts usually bring denser rocks nearer the surface and thereby create positive gravity anomalies. Faults that displace rocks of different densities also can cause gravity anomalies. Salt domes generally produce negative anomalies because salt is less dense than the surrounding rocks. Such folds, faults, and salt domes trap oil, and so the detection of gravity anomalies associated with them is crucial in petroleum exploration. Moreover, gravity measurements are occasionally used to evaluate the amount of high-density mineral present in an ore body. They also provide a means of locating hidden caverns, old mine workings, and other subterranean cavities.

Use of Gravimetry for Direct Exploration for Oil and Gas. From Petroleum Geology: A digest of Russian literature on Petroleum Geology Геология Нефти Vol. 3 (1959), No. 12B. (December), Pages 728-733 I. O. Tsimel’zon.  http://archives.datapages.com/data/rus_pet_geol/data/003/003012b/728_pg030728.htm

The important problem of clarifying the possibility of direct exploration for oil and gas has recently become prominent in the
Soviet Union. Together with data from scientific research organizations and special experimental and field investigations, much
information on the use of the various geophysical methods for direct oil and gas exploration is gained from analysis of several old
detailed surveys, although they were made for the purpose of finding oil-gas structures and not for the specialized task of direct oil
and gas exploration. Such surveys include variometer and, in particular, gravimeter surveys of several gas districts of south
Dagestan.

I have presented industry and reference articles on these devices. You can continue to explain this away claiming gravity from the stars or that I haven't presented valid sources. But it doesn't really matter. It's clear that these devices exist and are useful. And that they can't be explained in a UA theory.

I wish for you and any objective reader to compare what I presented here to the amount of evidence FE belief presents for the existence of a shadow object orbiting the sun. An object which can only be detected by a shadow, which FE believers can't accept being caused by the Earth. Your double standard of evidence is obvious.

[Tom Bishop]

How can a consistent difference from the norm at sea level, be explained by stars which rotate in the sky above?

It is unknown what is below the earth in FET. You are also assuming that it is caused by the individual masses of the stars rather than the energy of the system itself.

from http://www.geosoft.com/media/uploads/resources/ee_energy_2014-web.pdf

Just like the commonplace airborne gravity survey, an airborne
gravity gradiometry survey responds to the gravitational pull of
large masses on an accelerometer. Here’s how it works: Fly over a
particularly dense object, such as a rich underground ore deposit,
and you register a spike. Traditional gravimeters measure the force
exerted on them from one direction only, usually straight down. If
a survey does not fly directly over an anomaly but slightly to one
side, the odds it will detect that anomaly decrease sharply. Gravity
gradiometers, on the other hand, measure forces from the sides as
well, greatly improving the ability to detect objects.
Dan DiFrancesco, Business Development Manager for
Gravity at Lockheed Martin, U.S.A., explains that the technology
originated with a US military project in the 1970s: a navigation
tool for Trident nuclear submarines. When the Cold War ended,
the project was declassified and gradiometers became available
for commercial use.

An article explaining how the concept works is not an example of where it has worked.

From the Oil and Gas Journal, January 1996: http://www.ogj.com/articles/print/volume-94/issue-4/in-this-issue/refining/technology-gravimeter-yields-rock-density-for-cavern-during-operations.html

Technology Gravimeter yields rock density for cavern during operations

Again, there is no evidence showing that the gravimeter has worked. Were the surrounding rocks sampled to verify the readings? No statement of such.

From Encyclopedia Britannica https://www.britannica.com/topic/Earth-exploration

In most cases, the density of sedimentary rocks increases with depth because the increased pressure results in a loss of porosity. Uplifts usually bring denser rocks nearer the surface and thereby create positive gravity anomalies. Faults that displace rocks of different densities also can cause gravity anomalies. Salt domes generally produce negative anomalies because salt is less dense than the surrounding rocks. Such folds, faults, and salt domes trap oil, and so the detection of gravity anomalies associated with them is crucial in petroleum exploration. Moreover, gravity measurements are occasionally used to evaluate the amount of high-density mineral present in an ore body. They also provide a means of locating hidden caverns, old mine workings, and other subterranean cavities.

More sweeping statements. Were the rocks ever sampled to verify their densities? There is no such claim.

Use of Gravimetry for Direct Exploration for Oil and Gas. From Petroleum Geology: A digest of Russian literature on Petroleum Geology Геология Нефти Vol. 3 (1959), No. 12B. (December), Pages 728-733 I. O. Tsimel’zon.  http://archives.datapages.com/data/rus_pet_geol/data/003/003012b/728_pg030728.htm

The important problem of clarifying the possibility of direct exploration for oil and gas has recently become prominent in the
Soviet Union. Together with data from scientific research organizations and special experimental and field investigations, much
information on the use of the various geophysical methods for direct oil and gas exploration is gained from analysis of several old
detailed surveys, although they were made for the purpose of finding oil-gas structures and not for the specialized task of direct oil
and gas exploration. Such surveys include variometer and, in particular, gravimeter surveys of several gas districts of south
Dagestan.

Where is it claimed that any of the gravimeter surveys were fruitful?

I have presented industry and reference articles on these devices.

These people operate under the guise of scientists and advertise to wealthy people that they can find them billions of dollars of oil. They make everything sounds so good and certain, but the gravimeter was never proven to be capable of discovering anything in the ground. These people are not running controlled experiments. There has never been an experiment where someone buries a large mass and then looks at the readings of a gravimeter. The existence of articles describing how gravimeters could theoretically find something in the ground or measure a density is not evidence that it has done so.

You speak of this industry as if it were respectable and proven, when in fact it was fraught with fraud. See this article in the New York Times. Do real scientists go around wanting millions of dollars to find you billions in oil deposits?

The professionals in this industry are known as "doodlebuggers" -- pseudoscientists who claim to be able to find oil and make you rich with methods ranging from dousing rods to gravimeters to energy fields. You may have been led to believe that this is a genuine science field comprised of respectable professionals, but it is not.

https://gscretirees.wordpress.com/2011/04/25/what-is-a-doodlebugger/

A doodlebugger is someone in the seismograph business, aka petroleum exploration and oil exploration.

While some at the top end of the business–those who have their feet under the table for meals, call themselves doodlebuggers; in fact the doodlebugger is the guy out in the field getting dirty. That isn’t to take anything away from those working in data processing, interpretation, and management. Everyone has a job and it takes everyone to make it work. However, for the purpose of this explanation, doodlebuggers are the field people.

Most people have no idea what a seismograph crew does, which is just as well.  Farmers here in the U.S. think that seismograph crews are traveling bands of gypsy-like felons who tell them lies, promise to drill free water wells, leave gates open, tear up the pasture with their heavy equipment, then blow town in the dark of night without keeping any of their promises.

But in truth, seismograph crews do other things too. If the farmer has a daughter, she might run off with one of the jug hustlers from Laurel, Mississippi.  The farmer’s son may well be lured away from back-breaking farm work, only to find himself toting eight strings of geophones and a cable reel through the Atchafalaya Swamp, in South Louisiana.

If one reads the advertising and web pages published by the seismograph companies, one gets the impression that the business is comprised only of dedicated and professional scientists. Such propaganda has steered many a lad off the interstate and onto a washboard road with no place to turn around. For many, it has been a step up.

[StinkyOne]

Any variation at sea level can be explained by the distribution of celestial gravitation above or below the earth, and does not directly conclude that the phenomenon is a result of the attraction of mass at all.

A few questions on CG - do the sun and moon exert it? Are they affected by it? Does it pull like gravity?

[mtnman]

I asked a simple question. If there is no gravity, why do devices exist to measure gravity. Tom, I don't care if they work or not.

They exist. They have been around for decades. Scientists at a university in Scotland are working to make smaller and less expensive versions of them. And you just want to claim they don't work. Or they have never worked. Or oil explorers are crooked. Or someone has a catchy name for crooked oil explorers. All to keep "answering" with posts that obfuscate or change the subject.

If someone believed in gravity, invented the device, then found it didn't work. That would have been the end of it. Yet these devices persist. I'm really done with this subject. I think the lengths you go to in order to avoid just answering the original question are answer enough for me.

[Tom Bishop]

I asked a simple question. If there is no gravity, why do devices exist to measure gravity. Tom, I don't care if they work or not.

They exist. They have been around for decades. Scientists at a university in Scotland are working to make smaller and less expensive versions of them. And you just want to claim they don't work. Or they have never worked. Or oil explorers are crooked. Or someone has a catchy name for crooked oil explorers. All to keep "answering" with posts that obfuscate or change the subject.

If someone believed in gravity, invented the device, then found it didn't work. That would have been the end of it. Yet these devices persist. I'm really done with this subject. I think the lengths you go to in order to avoid just answering the original question are answer enough for me.

You do realize that, objectively, you are the crazy person coming here and claiming the existence of a magic device that can detect bodies far beneath the earth.

I have shown you that this device and its techniques were birthed in fraud, yet you think it is me that needs to show that the device does not work. The articles you have posted say that the gravimeter "could" or "can" detect structures, and none state that it did detect something.

Where is the basic science showing that the device has ever actually successfully detected something below the earth? Generic articles discussing the theory of how it could or can work is not good enough. Asking "why do these devices exist" is not good enough.

We may as well look up "how do dowsing rods work" if that is your qualifier for truth. At least those spook devices have a few success stories claiming to have discovered things, which seems to be more than we can say for these gravimeter devices.

And, apparently, based on the tone of your logic, we just need to ask "why do dowsing rods exist if they don't work," and just like that they are proven to work. Who knew science was so easy?

[mtnman]

To paraphrase Arthur C Clark, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic to a flat Earther.

So your solution is that these devices have never worked, and they were always fraudulent. And I suppose that everyone that has worked on them, and continues to improve them must have been part of the fraud, or conspiracy. If someone that believes these things wants to call me crazy, I welcome it.

The more I think about it, this chain of thinking is actually similar to the whole pictures from space thing. Pictures from space show the round Earth not a flat Earth, so they must all be labeled as fake. Spacecraft don't really fit in a flat world, so they must be fake also. These devices don't fit with your belief system, therefore they must be discredited, or least have some measure of plausible doubt attached so that the FE faithful feel comfortable ignoring them.

It's all just really sad.

[Rounder]

You do realize that, objectively, you are the crazy person coming here and claiming the existence of a magic device that can detect bodies far beneath the earth.

That's rich, after you claim it can measure the imaginary phenomenon of your choice:

Any variation at sea level can be explained by the distribution of celestial gravitation above or below the earth, and does not directly conclude that the phenomenon is a result of the attraction of mass at all.

[Tom Bishop]

To paraphrase Arthur C Clark, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic to a flat Earther.

So your solution is that these devices have never worked, and they were always fraudulent. And I suppose that everyone that has worked on them, and continues to improve them must have been part of the fraud, or conspiracy. If someone that believes these things wants to call me crazy, I welcome it.

The more I think about it, this chain of thinking is actually similar to the whole pictures from space thing. Pictures from space show the round Earth not a flat Earth, so they must all be labeled as fake. Spacecraft don't really fit in a flat world, so they must be fake also. These devices don't fit with your belief system, therefore they must be discredited, or least have some measure of plausible doubt attached so that the FE faithful feel comfortable ignoring them.

It's all just really sad.

The father of these gravity sniffing devices and techniques for finding underground deposits was a con-man who used his con-devices to bilk people out of millions of dollars!

How it is not necessary to show that these devices work at all?

[mtnman]

How about this. I'll stop talking about gravimeters if you stop quoting Samuel Rowbotham (I heard he was a con man also). But I can't prove it 

[Tom Haws]

You do realize that, objectively, you are the crazy person coming here and claiming the existence of a magic device that can detect bodies far beneath the earth.

Actually, no. The results of gravimeter measurements are a necessary part of the Global Positioning System. You see, the earth is not really a globe nor quite even an ellipsoid, but rather an uneven mess that's approximately ellipsoidal. A global database of gravimetry is necessary to correlate the X,Y,Z coordinate of GPS direct positioning to geographic locations and elevations.

[mtnman]

Actually, no. The results of gravimeter measurements are a necessary part of the Global Positioning System.

That's interesting, thanks for adding that information. But I don't think the FE faithful will be convinced. I've had discussions with some of them that swear GPS is done with towers and balloons. (Since they don't believe in satellites)

[Tom Haws]

Actually, no. The results of gravimeter measurements are a necessary part of the Global Positioning System.

That's interesting, thanks for adding that information. But I don't think the FE faithful will be convinced. I've had discussions with some of them that swear GPS is done with towers and balloons. (Since they don't believe in satellites)

You are welcome. Interesting.

[nickrulercreator]

FE also holds that there is still gravitational influence by heavenly bodies.

If this is true (according to you), why can Earth not have a significant gravitational influence on us as well? What differs the stars and planets (and moon) from Earth?