[juner]

Junker, if you believe the number involved in the conspiracy is so small, can you speak to any of my specific concerns laid out in the OP? Sailors, pilots, meteorologists, etc? And among those who do know, what's their motivation for keeping it a secret?

Why would any of those people need to know, or be able to confirm the shape of the Earth? I don't understand the concern.

[rubberbands]

I've already argued for this a few times in this thread, but I'll summarize again here.

Sailors and pilots because they need to know where they are and where they're going. If the Earth is shaped differently, then all their maps are wrong, so it's a miracle that they all get to the right destinations at the right times -- or, their maps are right, and they're all in on the conspiracy. And many of them (claim to) travel on routes that appear completely implausible if a typical flat-earth map is used (e.g. pretty much anything in the southern hemisphere).

Meteorologists, because we can use satellites to track weather patterns across the world and across large bodies of water. You can easily find live weather maps of wind speed, temperature and the likes (such as this). This is evidence of the same vein as "we've been to space and we have pictures", except these would be vastly more difficult to fake. There are people who analyze these patterns and use them to predict the weather for a living. You'd think they'd be able to tell if the data weren't matching up to what they saw in real life.

These people aren't rare. You should be able to find some all around the world. Most nations in the world should be able to figure this out, especially if you guys all were able to (that is to say, you're probably mostly in fields that are totally unrelated to the shape of the earth). And as much as you say a nation like North Korea isn't advanced enough to figure it out, you're not giving them enough credit. They have been able to make nuclear weapons, so they do have some pretty advanced scientists, even if the majority of their citizens live in terrible conditions.

[juner]

I've already argued for this a few times in this thread, but I'll summarize again here.

Sailors and pilots because they need to know where they are and where they're going. If the Earth is shaped differently, then all their maps are wrong, so it's a miracle that they all get to the right destinations at the right times -- or, their maps are right, and they're all in on the conspiracy. And many of them (claim to) travel on routes that appear completely implausible if a typical flat-earth map is used (e.g. pretty much anything in the southern hemisphere).

Can you provide an example? Sailors absolutely do not need to know the shape of the Earth to maintain the vessel they are traveling in. It isn't like they're a group of PHDs sitting around documenting planetary motion. They wake up, do a job, and go to sleep, then repeat. Please provide some specifics regarding what they do that is beyond following a set of instructions provided by someone else.

Meteorologists, because we can use satellites to track weather patterns across the world and across large bodies of water. You can easily find live weather maps of wind speed, temperature and the likes (such as this). This is evidence of the same vein as "we've been to space and we have pictures", except these would be vastly more difficult to fake. There are people who analyze these patterns and use them to predict the weather for a living. You'd think they'd be able to tell if the data weren't matching up to what they saw in real life.

I suppose this is why weather predictions are always spot on... 

These people aren't rare. You should be able to find some all around the world. Most nations in the world should be able to figure this out, especially if you guys all were able to (that is to say, you're probably mostly in fields that are totally unrelated to the shape of the earth). And as much as you say a nation like North Korea isn't advanced enough to figure it out, you're not giving them enough credit. They have been able to make nuclear weapons, so they do have some pretty advanced scientists, even if the majority of their citizens live in terrible conditions.

You are right that they are not rare. There are a bunch of regular people doing regular jobs who aren't notable or remarkable in any way. You are right, I don't give NK enough credit. Forgive me for not believing the same state media that says their supreme leader finishes a round of golf with 18 consecutive hole in ones, and that he gets re-elected with 100% of the vote...

[rubberbands]

They wake up, do a job, and go to sleep, then repeat.

Are you saying that sailors and pilots don't actually know where they're going? They just blindly drive their crafts according to some pre-written directions without actually knowing where they are? In order for them to be able to do their jobs, they obviously need to know their location at all times. To argue otherwise is practically absurd. And while they don't need to know the shape of the Earth, they do need to know the distance from Point A to Point B, and those distances differ wildly between FE and RE models. As a prime example, take the distance from Australia to South America -- on a globe, you just cross the relatively short Pacific, while on the conventional FE disc model, you need to traverse the entire outside of the disc to make that trip. Do you really think sailors and pilots can't tell the difference?

I suppose this is why weather predictions are always spot on... 

That isn't an answer to anything I said. Predicting the weather a week or even a few days from now is a totally different thing to having the current weather conditions mapped, worldwide -- which is something we do have. And again, we can see storm patterns, etc., moving smoothly from Australia to South America in a manner that would be incredibly confusing if that requires traversing the perimeter of a disc.

Forgive me for not believing the same state media...

I'm not asking you to trust their media; we have independent evidence that they have developed nuclear weapons. Yes, the country is awful and filled to the brim with propaganda, but those in power do have access to sophisticated technology -- as do those in power in most other nations. If even a few know the truth, why would they want to keep it quiet? For that matter, why does the US want to keep it quiet? What are they gaining from this that they couldn't do more efficiently?

[Pete Svarrior]

we have independent evidence that they have developed nuclear weapons.

We do? Could you present it? The international community would love to not have to continue speculating and trying to figure it out! You might even get some money out of it if you bring it to the government!

[rubberbands]

This isn't news. Can we focus on my actual points?

[Pete Svarrior]

This isn't news.

Clearly it must be news, since Wikipedia knows nothing about North Korea having nuclear weapons...

Can we focus on my actual points?

No, we can't, because your "actual points" rely on a lie. Underground nuclear tests are not nuclear weapons.

[Catnip]

Hah, not surprising that you guys didn't answer my questions. It's funny, the lengths you go to in order to hide the truth. There's no point, I'm just trying to understand. It's our earth, why can't we know what it's shaped like?

[Wezzoid]

Oh God now sexwarrior has joined in the distraction/evasion tactics! Stop avoiding the questions by picking out any minor fault. The questions were posed using generic examples to illustrate the general argument as simply as possible. You know this. You're not stupid. Neither are the people you're debating with so stop being disingenuous and either tackle the issue honestly or get out of the way and let some other forum members try.

[rubberbands]

Please, people. My points don't rely on North Korea having nuclear weapons at all -- that was merely an answer to Junker saying that they had very little technological capacity, which is clearly false whether they have nuclear weapons or not. (Also, the wikipedia page very clearly and unambiguously states that they do.)

But my actual points are more about the pilots, sailors, meteorologists, etc. These points still haven't really been addressed. 

[juner]

Please, people. My points don't rely on North Korea having nuclear weapons at all -- that was merely an answer to Junker saying that they had very little technological capacity, which is clearly false whether they have nuclear weapons or not. (Also, the wikipedia page very clearly and unambiguously states that they do.)

But my actual points are more about the pilots, sailors, meteorologists, etc. These points still haven't really been addressed.

You made the claim that these professions have and require knowledge of the shape of the earth to do their jobs. I'm asking for proof of that. You made a claim that you need to provide evidence for. I'm refuting the original claim, saying that these professions rely on technology, and make decisions based on what the instrumentation tells them.

When you start making additional claims outside that scope as some kind of further evidence, they are fair game, especially when they don't hold up to scrutiny.

[rubberbands]

You made the claim that these professions have and require knowledge of the shape of the earth to do their jobs.

I'm actually not making that claim. The claim I'm making is subtly different -- it's that these professions make heavy use of a globe model in their everyday work and would definitely notice if this model weren't accurate.

On a round Earth, the shortest distance from Sydney to Lima is 7964 miles. On a Flat Earth, modeled by the Azimuthal Equidistant projection, it's almost 14000 miles (see badly made image below) -- nearly twice as long! And that involves going over land, so any sea route would be even longer. Are you expecting me to believe that professional pilots and captains can't tell the difference between 7,000 and 14,000 miles?

The fact that pilots and ship captains need to know their whereabouts is such a basic, common-sense, indisputable fact that I've had trouble finding any website that would bother to explicitly state that. If you're saying that these people who pilot these craft for a living follow their directions so blindly that they don't actually know how far they're going or where on Earth they are, then I think you need to provide some evidence for that yourself. Never mind the fact that people have navigated the seas, including in the Southern Hemisphere, using round-Earth-based maps since well before anything like GPS was invented. You can't say that they were just blindly following the directions of their technology. Furthermore, if you subscribe to the Azimuthal Equidistant map as the correct representation of the Earth, there's the Vendee Globe race to consider, which either goes around a relatively small Antarctica, or circles the circumference of an enormous disc.

Then there are the live meteorological maps that I've linked a few times. The fact that the data fits perfectly onto a globe Earth means that it necessarily fits imperfectly on any other shape. If the weather data coming across the Pacific didn't match up with reality, South American meteorologists would realize it.


Here's my map showing the distance from Sydney to Lima (very approximately). Really, anyone with a shred of common sense can see this map couldn't possibly be the way the world literally looks -- even the landmass of Australia is terribly stretched.

[juner]

Yes, the projection map is a reference and obviously not to scale or 100% accurate. Unfortunately, there is no official flat earth map; this has been stated numerous times. I don't see the merit in the rest of the claims if the premise is using that map. I suppose you can take solace in that there isn't an official map at this time. The rest of it is unremarkable. Of course systems using RE maps will have models that fit it.

[rubberbands]

Well, so far, the Round Earth map does seem to be 100% accurate. And the problem isn't just with the Azimuthal Equidistant map -- any flat map will have a similar problem. There is simply no way to make a flat-earth map that is compatible with all the distances we observe on a round earth.

Of course systems using RE maps will have models that fit it.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this. If you're saying that, whatever the actual map of the Earth looks like, our RE models will fit the data -- then you believe the Earth is round. If you don't believe the Earth is round, then you must believe the RE map models won't fit the actual map of the Earth. They are by their very nature incompatible. And, as the evidence I've been presenting suggests, the RE map works. People use it successfully for all sorts of things -- the only alternative is that the conspiracy is much larger than you're willing to say. And if the RE map works, the world is round. It's as simple as that.

[juner]

Are you suggesting that all of these people use globes when navigating or modeling navigation data? What type of maps do you think they use? If we reference the OP, it is suggested such a conspiracy must be vast. There has been zero evidence provided that is the case.

[rubberbands]

I'm suggesting people use maps which correspond to a round-earth model rather than a flat-earth model. If they do, and they get from place to place accurately, then the earth must be round, since the round earth model works. If they still get from place to place properly but the earth isn't round, then they must be using flat-earth maps, and as such are in on a conspiracy. We can agree, I think, that they get from place to place accurately. Therefore, according to that reasoning, either the earth is round or there is a conspiracy converting up the fact that it is flat, and most pilots and sailors must be in on it. Can you find anything wrong with this reasoning?

[Pete Svarrior]

I don't understand why RE'ers get so upset when someone calls them out on a lie, or a simple factual error. If you weren't lying, admit you were wrong, amend or retract your claim, and we can all move on. However, we can't move on when you insist that something that's untrue serves as evidence of your claim and descend to evasion tactics when that's pointed out to you.

[rubberbands]

I'm sorry SexWarrior, but I'm not aware of any place where I have lied or where I have been called out on a lie. I have made the following logical argument:

-We observe planes and ships navigating themselves to their destinations accurately and on time

-If these planes and ships are using round-Earth maps, then those RE maps clearly work (since they got them to the right place at the right time). Therefore, the Earth is round.

-If the world is flat, and these planes and ships still arrive on time, they must be using flat-Earth maps. Hence, they must be in on a conspiracy.

The evidence I'm resting this argument on is essentially the fact that international trade happens. I think that's something we can all agree on. The rest follows from that. Where am I being dishonest, and where have I been called out on a lie?

[juner]

I can't think of a single instance where a pilot I've interacted with referenced a map when flying from A to B.

[Pete Svarrior]

I'm sorry SexWarrior, but I'm not aware of any place where I have lied or where I have been called out on a lie.

You claimed that it is well-known that North Korea has nuclear weapons. In reality, it is well-known that it probably doesn't, although there is some speculation that it might.

You also claimed that planes and ships rely on "RE maps". The only map that truly represents the RE model is a globe. Can you name one modern ship or plane that uses a globe for navigation, rather than a projection which is representative of neither FE nor RE?