[timterroo]

Serious question. Why do you like Trump so much?

- Trump is not a politician. He is a businessman who gave up billions of dollars to drain the swamp.

If this is true, and I doubt it is, regardless whether or not he gave up any money, he's still filthy rich. The fact that he gives up his salary as president is evidence of that. If he can give away $500,000/year, chances are he makes substantially more than that.

[Pete Svarrior]

If this is true, and I doubt it is, regardless whether or not he gave up any money, he's still filthy rich.

Interestingly enough, a common argument among his detractors is that he's not rich at all. They'd tell you that he has relatively little wealth, and that most businesses he's ever held went bankrupt.

The fact that he gives up his salary as president is evidence of that. If he can give away $500,000/year, chances are he makes substantially more than that.

Then again, there aren't many rich people who would donate $500k to the US government. Indeed, most of them would happily take the extra dosh. What gives?

[timterroo]

If this is true, and I doubt it is, regardless whether or not he gave up any money, he's still filthy rich.

Interestingly enough, a common argument among his detractors is that he's not rich at all. They'd tell you that he has relatively little wealth, and that most businesses he's ever held went bankrupt.

The fact that he gives up his salary as president is evidence of that. If he can give away $500,000/year, chances are he makes substantially more than that.

Then again, there aren't many rich people who would donate $500k to the US government. Indeed, most of them would happily take the extra dosh. What gives?

Don't forget Trump is a brilliant con-artist. He makes his money off scandalous business deals and tax loop-holes. Giving away his salary is part of his game. Plenty of rich people give away thousands of dollars to charities and government organizations, I thought this was common knowledge actually. It's a giant tax break for the wealthy, or maybe they do have a genuine heart - I don't want to be the judge of that. It's def a tax break though.

I think the reason Trump doesn't want to release his tax returns to the public is not because he's hiding the (un-known) fact that he's poor, I think it's because the amount of tax breaks he has would outrage even most rightest of the rights.

Edit:

Trump also does things to deliberately make you go, "WTH?" and he's the talk of the media. All eyes on Trump... There's one thing Trump loves more than anything else.... Trump.

[Pete Svarrior]

It's a giant tax break for the wealthy, or maybe they do have a genuine heart - I don't want to be the judge of that. It's def a tax break though.

That's the thing, though. He's not donating his salary to charity. He's simply not taking it.

[Rama Set]

It's a giant tax break for the wealthy, or maybe they do have a genuine heart - I don't want to be the judge of that. It's def a tax break though.

That's the thing, though. He's not donating his salary to charity. He's simply not taking it.

To be fair, we don't know if he literally isn't receiving a cheque or if he is taking it and donating it back.  Considering Trump's track record with truth and accuracy, I would not be surprised in the slightest if the latter were true or even if he were taking it and just lying about it.

[timterroo]

It's a giant tax break for the wealthy, or maybe they do have a genuine heart - I don't want to be the judge of that. It's def a tax break though.

That's the thing, though. He's not donating his salary to charity. He's simply not taking it.

To be fair, we don't know if he literally isn't receiving a cheque or if he is taking it and donating it back.  Considering Trump's track record with truth and accuracy, I would not be surprised in the slightest if the latter were true or even if he were taking it and just lying about it.

Indeed. He doesn't release his tax returns, so we can't really know can we?

I did find this article, for what it's worth (didn't spend a lot of time looking).

https://www.vox.com/2020/3/4/21164477/trump-donates-salary-hhs-coronavirus

Supposedly, as Trump donates his quarterly salary to HHS, he simultaneously attempts to gut them from the core by cutting 10 percent of their budget amounting to billions. That's Trump for you.

[Tumeni]

Serious question. Why do you like Trump so much?

- Trump is not a politician. He is a businessman who gave up billions of dollars to drain the swamp.

Beyond it being a catchphrase from DJT's 2016 campaign, what does that actually MEAN to you?

You agree, then, that he has no qualifications, nor civic/public service which would suit him to taking up the role of the highest office in the land? He's merely a businessman. And one with a trail of failed businesses, at that ...

- Trump is a King David character, perhaps morally ambiguous on the surface, but holds good values ...

Which are WHAT, exactly?

[Tom Bishop]

>"Trump MIGHT be getting tax breaks based on my personal speculation."

>Trump has "failed businesses" yet is a successful billionaire.

All we see are deliberate and speculative attempts to smear. There is clearly an illogical bias against President Trump. Where did you get your information from, exactly? You guys consistently link to opinion pieces as your source of knowledge, and show an inability to think for yourself. Now try arguing that Trump is bad with the assumption that those opinion pieces you get your information from are biased liars. Can't be done. You are a parrot to what you read, the opinions of others, and instantly believe this propaganda.

You agree, then, that he has no qualifications, nor civic/public service which would suit him to taking up the role of the highest office in the land? He's merely a businessman

Trump is a highly successful businessman; practically a general who commands the executives of his company into success.

Lifetime politicians are not something we want anymore. They tend to be corrupt hacks. After all, who wants to go into politics growing up? Children with egos seeking power. Teenagers who are biased towards socialism and weird extremes and want to "change things". People only rarely go into politics to serve the public and keep and maintain what America's founding fathers already created. The politicians self select and are bad from the start.

Trump is a billionaire and already has enough power to do as he wishes. He cannot be bought, which speaks volumes for his suitability as President.

[Rama Set]

You complain of people speculating then assert Trump is a billionaire despite there being no public record of his wealth.  You are also speculating.  One doesn't need to speculate about Trump's bankruptcy's as those are a matter of public record.

Trump is a billionaire and already has enough power to do as he wishes. He cannot be bought, which speaks volumes for his suitability as President.

Of course he can be bought.  Often greedy people are quite vulnerable to have their greed exploited. Thinking that being a billionaire makes him beyond reproach is about as silly a position as you can hold.

[Tom Bishop]

You complain of people speculating then assert Trump is a billionaire despite there being no public record of his wealth.  You are also speculating.  One doesn't need to speculate about Trump's bankruptcy's as those are a matter of public record.

Trump is widely acknowledged by financial authorities as a billionaire. You are speculating that he is not a billionaire.

Of course he can be bought.  Often greedy people are quite vulnerable to have their greed exploited. Thinking that being a billionaire makes him beyond reproach is about as silly a position as you can hold.

Not really. The paltry sums politicians often compromise their ideals for isn't going to do anything for Trump. When conducting shady dealings there is a risk-reward element which depends on your wealth. Trump doesn't need to be in politics for money, while lifetime politicians do. It is unlikely a billionaire is going to compromise on his core ideals and risk public exposure of quid-pro-quo or bribery for a bit of cash.

[Rama Set]

Trump is widely acknowledged by financial authorities as a billionaire.

Trump is widely acknowledged by political authorities as a terrible president.  But you encouraged people to think for themselves.  Follow the evidence.  You should take your own advice.  Incidentally Bernie Madoff was widely regarded as a hedge fund wizard.

You are speculating that he is not a billionaire.

I did nothing of the sort.

Not really.

Yes really.

The paltry sums politicians often compromise their ideals for for isn't going to do anything for Trump. When conducting shady dealings there is a risk-reward element which depends on your wealth. Trump doesn't need to be in politics for money, while lifetime politicians do. It is unlikely a billionaire is going to compromise on his core ideals and risk public exposure of quid-pro-quo for a bit of cash.

Power and influence are also rewards.  You trying to limit this discussion to only money speaks to a massive blind spot in your thinking.

[timterroo]

>"Trump MIGHT be getting tax breaks based on my personal speculation."

Almost any reputable news outlet has reported on Trump's negotiated tax breaks for Trump Tower, and other hotels and casinos. It's common knowledge. Trump has had literally billions of dollars in tax breaks.

>Trump has "failed businesses" yet is a successful billionaire.

Because he is a successful con-artist. A very good negotiator, and exploiter. These are not my opinions. These allegations are based on sound, documented evidence.

There have been many clever scandals that have made people millions, why would it surprise you if Donald Trump was capable of such trickery?

Now try arguing that Trump is bad with the assumption that those opinion pieces you get your information from are biased liars. Can't be done. You are a parrot to what you read, the opinions of others, and instantly believe this propaganda.

I believe it is bad that Trump has removed "the most regulations ever" in order to temporarily boost jobs at the expense of the environment and what I consider to be an American way of living - enjoying the great outdoors without being poisoned by river/lake or air pollution.

Is it a good thing to ignore our ecosystem? 

Do you like breathing without choking on lunges full of chemicals from air pollution (look at China).

Do you like water?

How about growing food that isn't contaminated with radioactive pollution or toxic chemical additives.

Is it a good thing to trade temporary economic success for all of that?

I didn't get any of this from media propaganda. You can look at other industrialized countries to see what happens if you ignore your ecosystem. If you want to talk about deaths from coronavirus, let's talk about deaths from air pollution. That is a greater threat to China than the virus is.

Trump is a billionaire and already has enough power to do as he wishes. He cannot be bought, which speaks volumes for his suitability as President.

Trump is an ego-maniac with narcissistic personality disorder, and border-line sociopath. This is based on evidence from individuals who have worked closely with Trump, and based on my opinion after listening to the man speak, and act. Being a billionaire does not give someone the ability to lead a nation. Especially when he has gained his wealth from inheritance first, then from scandalous business deals and exploitation.

Edit:

I figured you'd want some evidence of my claims for Trump's psychopathology, so let's take this:

At Trump's rally, he comments that we should slow down testing. To me, it seemed he was joking, and his people backed him up by saying he was joking. However, when speaking to the media, he said, very seriously and sternly, "Let me be clear. I do not kid."

So..... obviously he's got something twisted, or he's a troll, right? Either way, it's not doing the country any good.

[Tom Bishop]

Trump is widely acknowledged by political authorities as a terrible president.  But you encouraged people to think for themselves.  Follow the evidence.  You should take your own advice.  Incidentally Bernie Madoff was widely regarded as a hedge fund wizard.

Bernie Madoff was a hedge fund wizard until someone showed that he was not. But that deception doesn't make Warren Buffet's hedge fund a fraud. You are pleading with false equivalencies.

Power and influence are also rewards.  You trying to limit this discussion to only money speaks to a massive blind spot in your thinking.

What greater power or influence does a president have to seek? Is President Trump's presidential power going to be extended if he starts engaging in shady political deals with people wanting an edge in business?

I didn't get any of this from media propaganda.

And yet I've heard of all of that before, in the form of liberal media opinion pieces.

[Lord Dave]

1. As I understand it, Trump is redirecting his salary to  government departments, taking only the required $1.   In essence, this puts his income as poverty.  Unless he still receives money from his company.

2. Trump is a billionaire on paper mostly due to his property holdings.  We do not know if he really is one as we have no idea of his debt.  For all we know his clubs are barely able to break even with paying debts.  Note that he loves to golf at his own clubs, which infuses the club with alot of tax payer cash with food and lodging required for his security detail.  None of which is free to America.

[timterroo]

I didn't get any of this from media propaganda.

And yet I've heard of all of that before, in the form of liberal media opinion pieces.

Wait.... when you say you've "heard all of that before in liberal media as opinion", are you referring to Trump's removing of regulations? Because that's nobody's opinion, that's a verifiable fact.

Are you strawmaning, Tom? Or is this a red-herring? I never was too great with debate terms.

[honk]

>Trump has "failed businesses" yet is a successful billionaire.

Because he is a successful con-artist. A very good negotiator, and exploiter. These are not my opinions. These allegations are based on sound, documented evidence.

I'd argue he owes his wealth less to his own hustling and more to the fact that he inherited a fortune from his father, as the NYT reported on a couple of years ago, and was discussed here at the time - "discussed" meaning that I brought it up and literally everyone else brushed it off as unimportant or unworthy of condemnation. I happen to think it's very significant that Trump, someone who owes much of his political success to the popular perception that he's a great businessman, has been a spoiled rich kid all his life and not the self-made man he's always dishonestly claimed to be. Trump's supposed business acumen is fiction, just as much fiction as it would be if Kiefer Sutherland were to run for president calling himself Jack Bauer and hyped his experience of fighting terrorists and protecting America as reasons to vote for him.

[Tumeni]

Trump's 13 worst business failures (note that these are just the worst; it's not an exhaustive list)

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/donald-trumps-13-biggest-business-failures-59556/

Bernie Madoff was a hedge fund wizard until someone showed that he was not.

Trump is a "billionaire", until someone shows that he is not.

Why won't he show the world his tax returns, if he has nothing to hide?

[Rama Set]

Bernie Madoff was a hedge fund wizard until someone showed that he was not.

No Bernie Madoff was always a con man that made people believe otherwise.  The truth doesn't change because he portrays himself as something.

But that deception doesn't make Warren Buffet's hedge fund a fraud. You are pleading with false equivalencies.

Warren Buffet has a significant portion of his wealth as a matter of public record.  He is verifiably a billionaire.  You are speculating Trump to be one.

What greater power or influence does a president have to seek?

There are always incremental gains to be made.  President is a temporary role and often president's seek to profit off their post once they are no longer in office.

[AATW]

Serious question. Why do you like Trump so much?

- Trump is not a politician. He is a businessman who gave up billions of dollars to drain the swamp.

- Trump is a King David character, perhaps morally ambiguous on the surface, but holds good values and ultimately knows what is right for his country. More like a normal human, rather than a fake politician.

I'm going to leave the rest as none of it is why you like Trump, it's why you don't like the alternative. Which is fine to an extent. It's the same here, a lot of people voted for Johnson because they couldn't abide the thought of Corbyn being PM, and vice versa. Increasingly it does feel like we are forced to choose the least bad option because there isn't a good one. But I'm not interested in why you don't like the other party or why you do like the Republicans, I specifically want to know what you admire about Trump.

Why do you see him not being a politician as a good thing? I mean, running the economy is a big part of running a country admittedly but there are many other aspects which he has no obvious qualifications for. There's much debate about whether he is a good businessman. He's worth a lot of money certainly - although how much is impossible to know as he almost certainly inflates his true worth. What is on record is that he has had a lot of bankruptcies and his business empire was built based on money he inherited. He didn't build up a business from nothing like other entrepreneurs.
And is he draining the swamp? That was one of his catch phrases but has he done that? He's employed members of his family to senior roles and routinely sacks people who disagree with them - I'd suggest that's a sign of weakness and insecurity, not strength. How would you say he has drained the swamp?
And how has he given up billions? His businesses are still running, he hasn't given all his money away. He's not taking a salary so I'll give him that but that isn't billions.

Morally ambiguous is being kind. I don't disagree he loves the country but I see little evidence of good values. It's interesting that you hand wave away the "grab 'em by the pussy" comment. You dismiss it as a joke but that is rather undermined by the numerous women who have made allegations against him, his disturbing comments about his own daughter and his boasting about going backstage and into young girls' dressing rooms while involved with Miss Teen USA. It's interesting you say that if anyone else had said it then it wouldn't have caused a ripple. I completely disagree. I think it's only because Trump said it and his fans are such apologists for him that he got away with it

He claims to be a Christian but to me his recent waving around of a Bible was a shameless attempt to get evangelical Christians on board - a tactic which is depressingly effective. He claimed that the Bible was his favourite book but then when asked which was his favourite bit said "all of it" and declined to name a single verse or passage. The whole bit of that interview was like a kid trying to do a book report on something he patently had never read. He also said that he doesn't feel the need to ask God for forgiveness so if he is a Christian then he hasn't quite "got" it. As a friend from church often used to say about him "by their fruit...". What fruit do you see in Trump's life? Now, I'm not saying that it discounts him as a president, but one thing I really don't like about him is how he affects this veneer of Christianity to appeal to a certain type of voter who see him as "their guy".

There's the fact he refuses to release his tax returns which implies he's up to something there - I believe I'm right in saying he's the only president not to do so.

Then there's the lying, the endless, compulsive lying. Now all politicians lie of course but Trump lies like a child does, just obvious lies.
He reminds me of a story my niece told me of baby sitting a couple of friend's kids, one shoved the other over right in front of my niece and when she asked why he did it, he just said "didn't!", despite her literally watching him do it. It's kinda funny when a child does it, completely baffling when an adult does.

There's the constant self aggrandisement. The constant claims that he knows more about <x>, or he understands more about <x> than anyone. It's just a weird claim when he's talking about complex topics which he can't possibly be an expert on.

I said this before but look up the symptoms of a narcissistic personality disorder and tell me he doesn't suffer from them.

[totallackey]

Serious question. Why do you like Trump so much?

- Trump is not a politician. He is a businessman who gave up billions of dollars to drain the swamp.

- Trump is a King David character, perhaps morally ambiguous on the surface, but holds good values and ultimately knows what is right for his country. More like a normal human, rather than a fake politician.

I'm going to leave the rest as none of it is why you like Trump, it's why you don't like the alternative. Which is fine to an extent. It's the same here, a lot of people voted for Johnson because they couldn't abide the thought of Corbyn being PM, and vice versa. Increasingly it does feel like we are forced to choose the least bad option because there isn't a good one. But I'm not interested in why you don't like the other party or why you do like the Republicans, I specifically want to know what you admire about Trump.

Why do you see him not being a politician as a good thing? I mean, running the economy is a big part of running a country admittedly but there are many other aspects which he has no obvious qualifications for. There's much debate about whether he is a good businessman. He's worth a lot of money certainly - although how much is impossible to know as he almost certainly inflates his true worth. What is on record is that he has had a lot of bankruptcies and his business empire was built based on money he inherited. He didn't build up a business from nothing like other entrepreneurs.
And is he draining the swamp? That was one of his catch phrases but has he done that? He's employed members of his family to senior roles and routinely sacks people who disagree with them - I'd suggest that's a sign of weakness and insecurity, not strength. How would you say he has drained the swamp?
And how has he given up billions? His businesses are still running, he hasn't given all his money away. He's not taking a salary so I'll give him that but that isn't billions.

Morally ambiguous is being kind. I don't disagree he loves the country but I see little evidence of good values. It's interesting that you hand wave away the "grab 'em by the pussy" comment. You dismiss it as a joke but that is rather undermined by the numerous women who have made allegations against him, his disturbing comments about his own daughter and his boasting about going backstage and into young girls' dressing rooms while involved with Miss Teen USA. It's interesting you say that if anyone else had said it then it wouldn't have caused a ripple. I completely disagree. I think it's only because Trump said it and his fans are such apologists for him that he got away with it

He claims to be a Christian but to me his recent waving around of a Bible was a shameless attempt to get evangelical Christians on board - a tactic which is depressingly effective. He claimed that the Bible was his favourite book but then when asked which was his favourite bit said "all of it" and declined to name a single verse or passage. The whole bit of that interview was like a kid trying to do a book report on something he patently had never read. He also said that he doesn't feel the need to ask God for forgiveness so if he is a Christian then he hasn't quite "got" it. As a friend from church often used to say about him "by their fruit...". What fruit do you see in Trump's life? Now, I'm not saying that it discounts him as a president, but one thing I really don't like about him is how he affects this veneer of Christianity to appeal to a certain type of voter who see him as "their guy".

There's the fact he refuses to release his tax returns which implies he's up to something there - I believe I'm right in saying he's the only president not to do so.

Then there's the lying, the endless, compulsive lying. Now all politicians lie of course but Trump lies like a child does, just obvious lies.
He reminds me of a story my niece told me of baby sitting a couple of friend's kids, one shoved the other over right in front of my niece and when she asked why he did it, he just said "didn't!", despite her literally watching him do it. It's kinda funny when a child does it, completely baffling when an adult does.

There's the constant self aggrandisement. The constant claims that he knows more about <x>, or he understands more about <x> than anyone. It's just a weird claim when he's talking about complex topics which he can't possibly be an expert on.

I said this before but look up the symptoms of a narcissistic personality disorder and tell me he doesn't suffer from them.

Trump stated positions indicated the closest thing available to having a "hands off" approach to the economy.

That is why I voted for him.

That, and the idea he would start to pull us out of Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan.