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Offline RazaTD

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Real Scientific Experiment
« on: February 27, 2021, 01:09:03 PM »
Flat Earthers like to dismiss accepted scientific knowledge and make baseless claims without any scientific basis. They refuse to do any practical experiments on their own and only rest on YouTube videos or what their senses perceive.

For example, a common misconception that Flat Earthers have is that “water seeks its own level”. They have never made an effort to learn anything beyond a few YouTube videos.

Flat Earthers have still not been able to create a map of the World which shows how disinterested they are in gaining any real knowledge. It is literally one of the most important aspects of a model describing the shape of the World and even with the incredibly modern communication and travel technology of today, the Flat Earthers have not been able to make an accurate map of the World.

I have also noticed after interaction in this forum that when Flat Earthers are cornered they just leave the thread. They don’t want to be proven wrong because they don’t want to improve their knowledge. For example, two threads about Southern celestial pole were abandoned by Flat Earthers even prominent one after they realized they were wrong. Instead of improving their knowledge they chose to remain ignorant.

Why is there such a lack of scientific interest in this community? Why are Flat Earthers not joining effort to map out the surface of the Earth? You can disprove the Globe Earth map.
A rational man

Re: Real Scientific Experiment
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2021, 06:58:22 PM »
@razatd

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For example, a common misconception that Flat Earthers have is that “water seeks its own level”. They have never made an effort to learn anything beyond a few YouTube videos.

There is no "they".  Flat earth researchers are most often independent and they tend to differ substantially in both approach and conclusion as a result.  It sounds like you have some experience with youtubers - but none with earnest flat earth researchers.

Water's surface does indeed seek its level at rest and this is a demonstrable natural law of hydrostatics that has stood unchallenged for centuries.  In order to refute the law, you MUST repeatedly/rigorously measure water doing something other than that (at rest, under natural conditions, and barring irrelevant miniscus effects - which are also laws and don't in any way contradict the one we are evaluating). No one can or has, which is the reason the law still stands today.

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Flat Earthers have still not been able to create a map of the World which shows how disinterested they are in gaining any real knowledge.

Yes, I've often heard it said that cartogrophers are the true height of intellect and knowledge. "Give me a good map, and I won't need books or scientific study" - they say.

Essentially, no one is engaged with cartography (most especially not to determine the shape of the world - which is BELIEVED to be already known), and this is something you should understand.

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when Flat Earthers are cornered they just leave the thread. They don’t want to be proven wrong because they don’t want to improve their knowledge.

Yes, I'm sure that is the main reason that people end conversations with you - fear of improving their knowledge.

Many times people choose not to repeat themselves when they have said all that is relevant, other times - life gets in the way (sometimes I respond long after the fact when I get a chance).

This might come as a shock, but the last person who speaks does not "win" the conversation (you can't win a conversation, but you can lose it).  In many cases, they have simply ended it.

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Instead of improving their knowledge they chose to remain ignorant.

Old habits die hard!

Take yourself for instance.  You think (because you were taught, and are now repeating) the southern cross proves something about the shape of the world.

You have likely already been explained to  - that looking up to study the shape of what is in the polar opposite direction of you is both unscientific and powerful stupid.  But your habit persists, because you "learned" by conditioning through rote under the guise of education - and fixing what has been damaged by that process will take the same repetition that was required to ingrain it in you (in this case, against logic and reason)

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Why is there such a lack of scientific interest in this community?

You aren't talking about science, you are talking about cartography...  It ALSO isn't useful to determine the shape of the world, as that is in no way its purpose.  To try to misuse it in that way presumes measurements that have not been collected.

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Why are Flat Earthers not joining effort to map out the surface of the Earth?

Because mapping is NOT the same as measuring!  There are many flat earth researchers engaged in measuring the (local, typically) earth's shape and they have collected some very interesting findings!

One day, the maps will become a priority to fix / reconcile with reality.  However, we don't fix things unless they are broken.  If the map is useful (or we believe it is), then we keep using it. The shape of the world doesn't enter into it.  It's about bearing and duration - the distances can be completely incorrect (especially with local motion, for example - currents / jet-streams) and still be useful / "correct" enough for our purposes.

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You can disprove the Globe Earth map.

There are many flaws to harp on about existing maps and always has/will be - why bother? It doesn't have relevance to the shape of the earth.  If you want to know the shape of the world with certainty - you have to measure it rigorously (maps aren't for measuring the world, nor do you measure the whole world to make them)

Peter Winfield

Re: Real Scientific Experiment
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2021, 07:20:32 PM »
There are many flaws to harp on about existing maps and always has/will be - why bother? It doesn't have relevance to the shape of the earth.

If the earth is flat then a flat map is just a scaled down picture, and lots of information can be gained from it. Things like the length of the equator and tropics, the distance from the North Pole to the equator, the area of Australia and the USA, and so on. But if you don't want to put this on a map, you can just post the figure here, that would be fine. These are all easily measurable so the theory can be easily tested.

But when we say "map" what we often mean is "model". Where is the mathematical model of the flat Earth that can accurately predict the results of standard observations? A starting point would be a formula for the angle and inclination of the sun, and a formula for the motion of the stars. Hopefully these will be in the "very interesting findings" from all those flat Earth researchers.

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Offline Iceman

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Re: Real Scientific Experiment
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2021, 07:43:27 PM »



Water's surface does indeed seek its level at rest and this is a demonstrable natural law of hydrostatics that has stood unchallenged for centuries.  In order to refute the law, you MUST repeatedly/rigorously measure water doing something other than that (at rest, under natural conditions, and barring irrelevant miniscus effects - which are also laws and don't in any way contradict the one we are evaluating). No one can or has, which is the reason the law still stands today.

Jack can you provide a quote/written summary, an author/supporters, and the mathematical equation(s) for this law for forum members to evaluate?

Peter Winfield

Re: Real Scientific Experiment
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2021, 08:03:58 PM »
You think the southern cross proves something about the shape of the world.

It is the South Celestial Pole that proves something, because it is a fixed point in the sky that is always due south of every point on Earth. And the North Celestial Pole is a fixed point in the sky that is always due north of every point on Earth. The only way this is geometrically possible on a flat Earth is if every point on Earth is on a straight line.

I think the real problem is that there don't seem to be any mathematicians among the "flat Earth researchers" so there are no detailed equations in any flat Earth model. If you want to convince people that the Earth is flat, you have to get some serious mathematicians on board.

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Offline stack

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Re: Real Scientific Experiment
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2021, 09:24:27 PM »

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Why are Flat Earthers not joining effort to map out the surface of the Earth?

Because mapping is NOT the same as measuring! 

I don't know where you get your information from, but it would be nice if you provided a source, rather than you just saying so. Mappng is mapping. Measuring things goes into mapping. If you have an issue with that, go talk to some surveyors, NOAA, and all other geodesy orgs/individuals. They measure stuff, a lot of stuff, and make maps of that measured stuff. Pretty simple really.

What is geodesy?
Geodesy is the science of accurately measuring and understanding the Earth's geometric shape, orientation in space, and gravity field.

https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/geodesy.html

One day, the maps will become a priority to fix / reconcile with reality.  However, we don't fix things unless they are broken.  If the map is useful (or we believe it is), then we keep using it. The shape of the world doesn't enter into it. 

Actually, you are incorrect. The shape of the earth definitely enters into it. Take google, bing, yahoo, whomever maps for example. As has been shown to you numerous times, they use globe projections/distances in their depictions, routing, distances, navigation, etc. The "useful" maps you are using are actually based upon a globe earth. So yeah, they don't seem to be broken so I agree, keep using them.

Re: Real Scientific Experiment
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2021, 07:25:47 PM »
snip


jack44556677, anytime soon you can leave the premises without supervision, you should start your own show!