The Flat Earth Society
Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: jroa on April 07, 2015, 12:25:41 PM
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It is possible to be against Israel but not hate Jews. The two things are not mutually inclusive, even if Yaakov tries to cry, "anti-Semite" every time someone mentions something against the Zionist occupiers.
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JROA, that is digenuous at best, and downright dishonest at worst. "I don't hate Jews, but they shouldn't have a state of their own." is oxymoronic. Its like saying you don't mind the French, but France should not exist. As I have said many times, "Palestine" could have had a State in '48, '01, and in '08. They refused all times. Hamas calls for the ddestruction of Israel. The PA won't recognise it as a Jewish State. Until they do, they won't get their State.
Does Israel fuck up? Yes. No one denies that. But they admit it. That is what the Supreme Court is for, to which "Palestinians" often bring cases, which they often win. Try doing that in Tibet. The fact remains that most people who hate Israel also hate Jews, but try to hide it under pseudo-academic bullshit, you included.
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Once again, Yaakov, if I take over your house, and then offer to give you back the garage, one bedroom and a closet, you would say I was being unreasonable. Yet, when Israel does it, they call the other people ungrateful. Do you not see the irony?
Also, I watched some videos of little Palestinian kids (less than 10 years old) getting roughed up, arrested, and imprisoned by the IDF for allegedly throwing a rock. The same IDF just stands by and watches when a group of Jews attack and almost kill a small Palestinian child. How do you justify this?
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JROA, that is digenuous at best, and downright dishonest at worst. "I don't hate Jews, but they shouldn't have a state of their own." is oxymoronic. Its like saying you don't mind the French, but France should not exist. As I have said many times, "Palestine" could have had a State in '48, '01, and in '08. They refused all times. Hamas calls for the ddestruction of Israel. The PA won't recognise it as a Jewish State. Until they do, they won't get their State.
Does Israel fuck up? Yes. No one denies that. But they admit it. That is what the Supreme Court is for, to which "Palestinians" often bring cases, which they often win. Try doing that in Tibet. The fact remains that most people who hate Israel also hate Jews, but try to hide it under pseudo-academic bullshit, you included.
Uhh, no, Yaakov, being French in France is not the same as being Jewish in Israel. People who live in Israel are called Israelis, not Jews. Some are both Israeli and Jewish, just like how some are Islamic and Israeli.
The world should not make a special case for Israel just because its population happens to be more monolithic than most. Since the creation of Israel, it and its people have done nothing but stay engaged in a war with the surrounding area and it has almost always had the upper hand. It is more wealthy, more composed, and more militaristic than any country within a thousand miles. So yes, when people see their military killing civilians because they can't be bothered to check their targets, it comes to no surprise that the international criticism will come pouring in.
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I would not have a problem with Israel if they did not steal the land from Palestine, claim it was their divine right, and then proceed to treat the Palestinians like red headed step children.
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Like I said, "Palestinians" could have had their own state three times, and in fact they already DO have their own state. Its called Jordan. It is 70% "Palestinian". And ultimately, there are French People, and there are people with French citizenship. Very few people would call them French. There are Jews in Israel, and then there are people with Israeli citizenship. There is a difference. Israel has always been classified as a Jewish State, and that is probably going to become even more pronounced, when the proposed Nationality Law comes into effect, as it should.
You can this argument by yourselves. Because I know where I stand, and that I am right, and that we have had this out in my thread already several times, you can do it for yourself if you wish. I see no need to repeat myself. Enjoy.
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Palestine had a state before it was illegally taken from them. What if I took your car and then offered to give you back the cigarette lighter? Would you be happy with that?
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I bet Yaakov also wouldn't be happy if I airdropped fliers on his house informing him that I will blow up his house the next day. Blowing up his house is now okay because I warned him first. It also isn't murder because it is only murder if I consider it to be murder, therefore killing him is A-Okay.
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Palestine had a state before it was illegally taken from them. What if I took your car and then offered to give you back the cigarette lighter? Would you be happy with that?
But jroa! Palestinians doesn't have the divine right to that land! The Jews does! God said so!
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Let's please try to keep the religious element out of this. This thread is about Israel the country not being legitimate, not the Jewism religion.
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To a Jew, the religious elements are always relevant and present.
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To a Jew, the religious elements are always relevant and present.
Well, not to all of them, just a lot. The ones who are both Jewish and criticize Israel are oft referred to as "self-hating Jews" by religious profligates, including Yaakov.
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Anti-Israel is sometimes anti-semitism, but jews tend to assume that they're the same thing and that's kinda ridiculous. There are plenty of reasons to be against Israel without even taking religion into account.
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Israel is a country.
Jews are a group of people who are so insular in their ideas and beliefs that they don't even like marrying non-Jews.
One can hate one and not hate the other. Me? I'm not a fan of either. Mostly because Israel is run with the same ideas and beliefs that Jewish society runs on.
So in a way, being anti-Israel is like being anti-jew.
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JROA, that is digenuous at best, and downright dishonest at worst. "I don't hate Jews, but they shouldn't have a state of their own." is oxymoronic. Its like saying you don't mind the French, but France should not exist.
Should the Romani have a state of their own? If you don't happen to think so, does that necessarily entail you being anti-gypsy?
Plenty of Jews do not believe Israel should exist. In fact, back when Zionism first became a thing, the only people who opposed it were other Jews, given that they were the only people who knew or cared about the idea. Are the devoutly Orthodox members of the Neturei Karta or Satmar sect anti-Jewish?
That is just a stupid response. In fact, the Satmar and the Neturei Karta should NOT be allowed to live in Israel, in my opinion. Rejection of the State should get them a choice of deportation or death. Should the Romani have a State of their own? Yes, I am inclined to think they should. I know of no sensible Jew, not even Reform ones, who oppose Israel's existence, although I know a few self-hating ones who are stupid enough to support the people who throw rockets at us.
Here is what it comes down to, and it is as simple as this, to wit:
EVERY SINGLE MUSLIM ARAB in Greater Israel should be given free swimming lessons for one week. After that, they should be escorted to the Med. Sea and told to enjoy the water. They should be pointed West, and told that Algeria is that way. Plenty of free land that way. Greater Israel includes Israel within the Green Line, The Gaza Strip, the West Bank, ALL of Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights. Druze should be regarded as citizens. Christians should be allowed to live in Israel as resident aliens. Israel should be declared a Halachic State (one that follows Torah). The Dome of the Rock monstrosity should be blown up, and the Holy Temple should be rebuilt, and the Fire Offerings reinstated. Anyone who has any issues with any of this can take it up with the IDF and the nation's nuclear arsenal. Have a nice Jewish day.
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Well, if Israel is nuked then we can answer two questions.
1.Does God want them to have that land?
The answer being no since he didn't stop it from being uninhabitable.
2. Can you be anti-israel and not anti-Jew.
The answer being yes since there is no Israel anymore.
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Like I said, don't take it up with me. Take it up with the IDF. They haven't lost a single war since 1948, and G-d knows they've been in enough of them.
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Like I said, don't take it up with me. Take it up with the IDF. They haven't lost a single war since 1948, and G-d knows they've been in enough of them.
With good reason: Jews are Jerks.
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And the sheygetzim are any better? All we are doing is taking our land back from the Arabs, who stole it from the Romans, who stole it from us. I don't care what group of sheygetz took it, all I care is that they go away now. The fact that the current sheygetzim there now are Arab is beside the point. I wouldn't care if they were good little Episcopalians. They don't belong there. Israel belongs to the Jews.
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And the sheygetzim are any better? All we are doing is taking our land back from the Arabs, who stole it from the Romans, who stole it from us. I don't care what group of sheygetz took it, all I care is that they go away now. The fact that the current sheygetzim there now are Arab is beside the point. I wouldn't care if they were good little Episcopalians. They don't belong there. Israel belongs to the Jews.
Says only Jews.
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Well, its our land, so we are the only ones who matter. The rest of the world can go fuck itself.
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Well, its our land, so we are the only ones who matter. The rest of the world can go fuck itself.
Jews telling the world that Jews have a right to land because Jews said so.
Yes, I can see how everyone else would believe you.
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We didn't. G-d did. End of story.
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We didn't. G-d did. End of story.
According to Jews. How odd there were no other witnesses...
Or that God hasn't refreshed anything in 4,000 years. If God didn't exist, this story would have the same evidence.
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Well, he has refreshed. I'm not going to bother to explain, because I don't think you have the brains to understand. So there would really be no point. But there you are.
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Well, he has refreshed. I'm not going to bother to explain, because I don't think you have the brains to understand. So there would really be no point. But there you are.
Oh, so he's appeared again to all the Jews? I'm sure you can point to a news article...
Or is this a "If you see the signs" type of fantasy?
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Like I said, I am not going to bother to explain. I don't perceive your intellect to be high enough. Due to that difficulty, it wouldn't be worth my time.
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Yaakov is literally saying "ur retartet but u donut even no it and i walnut tell u y."
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I wish a man in the sky would tell me I'm part of his chosen people. Life is really tough as a heathen.
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So you quote mostly non-believing, atheist Jews, who long since betrayed their G-d and their People, and expect that to affect me how? And psychiatrists and scientists have knowledge on the subject exactly how? Ever heard of the logical fallacy known as "Appeal to Authority"? Linguists? Really? That is the best you can do? Political scientists? And the best one, the UN? The UN has been a joke since its creation! The US and Israel should withdraw from the UN and their building in New York should be blown up with everybody in it! They are a disgrace to the civilised world! And anti-Semitic to the core!
Dude, that was a joke of a response. And not a funny one.
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Dude, that was a joke of a response. And not a funny one.
Sort of like saying that millions of people should die because "no I'm not going to bother to explain it to you because I'm super duper smart and you're dumb."
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Yakkov:
Makes point of "Appeal to authority" logical fallicy.
Proceeds to claim right of land via authority item.(Torah).
Hilarity ensues.
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A man who believes in a being he can't even prove exists is prone to logical fallacies. Let's all act surprised.
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So you quote mostly non-believing, atheist Jews, who long since betrayed their G-d and their People, and expect that to affect me how?
I cited Orthodox Jews in my first post and you weren't satisfied with that either. There's just no pleasing you.
And of course atheists are too dense to know that the Orthodox that you cited don't believe in Israel, not because of anything to do with the "Palestinians", but because they believe that Israel can only exist when Moshiach comes. But that would require that atheists actually have the intelligence to do the research to know that.
You still haven't told us why you believe the Romani ought to have a state and which people are to be displaced for it. Should white North Americans have to return to Europe to make way for the new Amerindian state(s)? There's quite a lot of real estate to be seized and redistributed on the basis of prior ownership.
I am sure a place could be found. But that is not what we are discussing, is it?
Ever heard of the logical fallacy known as "Appeal to Authority"?
I can hum a few bars:
We didn't. G-d did. End of story.
That is a stupid response. The Deity is NOT an appeal to authority. Given that only about 16% of the human race is atheistic, and generally the stupider 16%, I think we can ignore their opinions safely.
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If God is not an authority, then how do you justify Israel's ownership by Jews?
You can't have it both ways. Either you appeal to God saying so, or you admit God has no say in it.
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No, you misunderstand. I am saying that he does not fall into the category of the logical fallacy of "Appeal to Authority". He is a legitimate authority.
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And of course atheists are too dense to know that the Orthodox that you cited don't believe in Israel, not because of anything to do with the "Palestinians", but because they believe that Israel can only exist when Moshiach comes. But that would require that atheists actually have the intelligence to do the research to know that.
I've listed Jews from across the religious spectrum that oppose Israel. The single, consistent factor that discounts them in your eyes is their opposition to Israel. Don't pretend any of this has to do with religious integrity after all that.
You, like most atheists, lack intellectual honesty. An Orthodox Jew who opposes Israel does it for entirely different reasons then a liberal self-hating Jew. But an atheist such as yourself is too dishonest, and too stupid, to see that.
I am sure a place could be found. But that is not what we are discussing, is it?
It was, but you keep trying to drop it. Like right now.
Actually no, the discussion was never about Gypsies, except in your mind. Like all atheists, who are too stupid to stay on subject, because they know they can't win, they have to bring in unrelated crap.
The Deity is NOT an appeal to authority.
It's literally an appeal to the very highest authority.
What I meant, and you would know this, if you had an intellect, is that it does not fit the category of the logical fallacy. Of course it is an appeal to a legitimate authority. No one disputes that.
Given that only about 16% of the human race is atheistic, and generally the stupider 16%, I think we can ignore their opinions safely.
This is another appeal to authority - that of the masses. It's otherwise known as argumentum ad populum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum).
One could make that argument. But again, given that atheists tend to make up the stupider part of society, I think we are safe in appealing to society's more intelligent element.
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And yakkov is gone.
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Hopefully permanently. We did it, FES!
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I understand the yaakov hate, really, I do, but that is no reason to shitpost. Stoppit.
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I'd like to see how the discussion goes without him...
So, Israel is a country and while it may be primarily Jewish, it is not run by Jewish law nor is it all Jewish. Thus, to dislike Israel can't be anti-semite.
Agree or disagree?
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Disagree. It's hypothetically possible for someone to assume the mindset of "I hate Jews, therefore I hate Israel".
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It is possible to be against Israel but not hate Jews.
I'm pro-Israel and moderately against Jews.
The Israeli are the less evil of the Jews.
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Well, that made interesting reading. I am a Jew, albeit perhaps not as harsh as that individual. I classify myself as generally Conservadox w/ slight Reform tendancies. I think one can disagree w/ individual things Israel does & not hate Jews. But opposing the EXISTENCE of Israel as a Jewish State is anti-Semitic, & most Israeli Jews would agree, including the secular ones. To use the earlier example, there are many people in France that aren't French, mostly from Muslim countries. But to oppose France's existence as the French State would be Francophobic. Please note I am using the WAP2 Interface on a dumbphone. No computer. It takes a LONG time to answer, & more than one post if answers are long. Do be patient.
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Well, that made interesting reading. I am a Jew, albeit perhaps not as harsh as that individual. I classify myself as generally Conservadox w/ slight Reform tendancies. I think one can disagree w/ individual things Israel does & not hate Jews. But opposing the EXISTENCE of Israel as a Jewish State is anti-Semitic, & most Israeli Jews would agree, including the secular ones. To use the earlier example, there are many people in France that aren't French, mostly from Muslim countries. But to oppose France's existence as the French State would be Francophobic. Please note I am using the WAP2 Interface on a dumbphone. No computer. It takes a LONG time to answer, & more than one post if answers are long. Do be patient.
Welcome back, Yaakov.