The Flat Earth Society

Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 24, 2014, 06:15:43 PM

Title: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 24, 2014, 06:15:43 PM
In the Heaven thread, someone actually suggested this. If anyone has any questions about Jews & Judaism, I'll try to answer. I'm neither the most brilliant nor the most foolish Jew in the world. I like to think I'm reasonably well informed. If I can't answer your question, I'll tell you that too. So, fire ahead. If nobody does, that won't offend me either. This is just an offer.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on January 24, 2014, 06:41:37 PM
What's the deal with airplane peanuts?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 24, 2014, 06:43:54 PM
Please elaborate. I haven't been on a plane in yrs.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on January 24, 2014, 08:04:03 PM
If the body is a temple meant to be kept pristine, e.g. don't get tattoos,  why are small Jewish boys subjected to ceremonial genital mutilation, thus damaging the temple?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 24, 2014, 08:45:26 PM
Duck, interesting! I never looked @ it that way. The command in the Scripture was given. No explanation. However, the Jewish Bible, to my knowledge, & correct me if I'm off on this, says nothing about body as temple business. That's Pauline, NT Christian stuff. Getting circumcised differentiated us then & now from those not of the Covenant. The same is true of NOT shaving or getting tatoos. For Christians, something had to replace the Temple, so the temple of the Holy Ghost did (the body). For Jews, the Jerusalem Temple will be rebuilt in the days of Messiah.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 24, 2014, 10:10:04 PM
Saddam, when do you plan on engaging in coitus w/ your nearest female relative in order to continue the inbreeding from which you so obviously come?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Thork on January 24, 2014, 10:14:48 PM
For Christians, something had to replace the Temple, so the temple of the Holy Ghost did (the body).
We call it a church.

When do you plan on fucking off back to whatever website you came from?
Stop being butthurt that we picked up a Jew. They are everywhere. Whilst he is here, he isn't thinking up ways to hoard gold.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on January 24, 2014, 10:20:29 PM
Stop being butthurt that we picked up a Jew. They are everywhere. Whilst he is here, he isn't thinking up ways to hoard gold.

But maybe bitcoins.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: EnigmaZV on January 24, 2014, 10:25:15 PM
Why is completing an electrical circuit considered "work" and is forbidden by some on the sabbath?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 24, 2014, 10:40:58 PM
Well, the Orthodox classify that as 'starting a fire'. So, by their standard, its ok for me to walk 38 blocks to shul, but not to get in a car & drive or even ride there! Go figure. I don't classify myself as strictly Orthodox, or any movement. I consider that they all have good things to offer. I re: myself as moderately traditional, but I do ride on Sabbath. If I owned a car, I'd drive, & did, when I did own one.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Excelsior John on January 24, 2014, 10:42:23 PM
In the Heaven thread, someone actually suggested this. If anyone has any questions about Jews & Judaism, I'll try to answer. I'm neither the most brilliant nor the most foolish Jew in the world. I like to think I'm reasonably well informed. If I can't answer your question, I'll tell you that too. So, fire ahead. If nobody does, that won't offend me either. This is just an offer.
Yeah I have a question: why the flip do jewish people act like jewish is a race when it is a religion?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Thork on January 24, 2014, 10:43:57 PM
In the Heaven thread, someone actually suggested this. If anyone has any questions about Jews & Judaism, I'll try to answer. I'm neither the most brilliant nor the most foolish Jew in the world. I like to think I'm reasonably well informed. If I can't answer your question, I'll tell you that too. So, fire ahead. If nobody does, that won't offend me either. This is just an offer.
Yeah I have a question: why the flip do jewish people act like jewish is a race when it is a religion?
So they can accuse you of being racist when you question their despicable actions. See Israel.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 24, 2014, 10:45:27 PM
1/32 is ignored. Everybody else, please continue.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 24, 2014, 11:32:14 PM
Seeing what Thork said, I'll respond to that. Jews are not, and never have been, a race, nor do we pretend to be. We are an ethnic group, which is quite different. A Jew shares DNA with another Jew that he does not share with you. A Levite shares DNA with another Levite that he does not even share with other Jews. A Cohen shares even closer DNA with another Cohen that he does not share with Levites or other Jews, although Cohens are Levites and both of them are Jews. I shan't go on at length because I've discussed this matter to the point of wanting to vomit in other threads, on both Flat Earth websites. As far as doing things with which a person might disagree, anyone can disagree with a given action of the State of Israel without being anti-Semitic. But when one expects Israel to act differently than other nations might act when faced with similar circumstances, that IS anti-Semitic, and needs to be called out.

So, that having been said, I think I've responded to Thork reasonably well. Responding to 1/32 isn't necessary. He is ignored. The rest of you, please continue. I won't respond to 1/32 unless one of you does, like Thork did. Otherwise, he will be ignored.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on January 24, 2014, 11:48:32 PM
It's not anti-Semitic since, by definition Arabs are a Semitic people as well. But please keep on trying to appropriate it. It would be difficult for other nations to be in the position that Israel believes itself to be since there can be only one land of milk and honey right?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 24, 2014, 11:56:13 PM
If you prefer, I shall use the term "anti-Jewish". We did not not invent the term "anti-Semite". That was a German in the late 19th Century who hated Jews. He called himself an anti-Semite. It wasn't Hitler, who was Austrian. I forget the dude's name, actually. I could probably find it, but I don't care to. You're right. Arabs are Semites, and there are a few more people that are as well, or at least that use Semitic languages (some various folk in Ethiopia).
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Excelsior John on January 25, 2014, 01:42:26 AM
In the Heaven thread, someone actually suggested this. If anyone has any questions about Jews & Judaism, I'll try to answer. I'm neither the most brilliant nor the most foolish Jew in the world. I like to think I'm reasonably well informed. If I can't answer your question, I'll tell you that too. So, fire ahead. If nobody does, that won't offend me either. This is just an offer.
Yeah I have a question: why the flip do jewish people act like jewish is a race when it is a religion?
So they can accuse you of being racist when you question their despicable actions. See Israel.
Exacley I have much disdan for israel they STOL the lands from the palastinens!!!
1/32 is ignored. Everybody else, please continue.
Yakoov (hear ill call you "Jewish is a race ::)" for now on ;D) if your going to make a thred were we can ask jewish dude a question you gota be able to anser everey question. Looks pretey bad on your part and I think/know evereyone here can agre with me
Seeing what Thork said, I'll respond to that. Jews are not, and never have been, a race, nor do we pretend to be. We are an ethnic group, which is quite different. A Jew shares DNA with another Jew that he does not share with you. A Levite shares DNA with another Levite that he does not even share with other Jews. A Cohen shares even closer DNA with another Cohen that he does not share with Levites or other Jews, although Cohens are Levites and both of them are Jews. I shan't go on at length because I've discussed this matter to the point of wanting to vomit in other threads, on both Flat Earth websites. As far as doing things with which a person might disagree, anyone can disagree with a given action of the State of Israel without being anti-Semitic. But when one expects Israel to act differently than other nations might act when faced with similar circumstances, that IS anti-Semitic, and needs to be called out.

So, that having been said, I think I've responded to Thork reasonably well. Responding to 1/32 isn't necessary. He is ignored. The rest of you, please continue. I won't respond to 1/32 unless one of you does, like Thork did. Otherwise, he will be ignored.
Thats onley becuz jewish has a supa crazey rule were you can onley marey felow jewish people. (rascism much?) and thats why there so geneticeley in comon. Its stil a religon. Its like how cathlics can onley marey cathliks. Idiot
It's not anti-Semitic since, by definition Arabs are a Semitic people as well. But please keep on trying to appropriate it. It would be difficult for other nations to be in the position that Israel believes itself to be since there can be only one land of milk and honey right?
Jewish is a Semitic religon not a Semitic people
If you prefer, I shall use the term "anti-Jewish". We did not not invent the term "anti-Semite". That was a German in the late 19th Century who hated Jews. He called himself an anti-Semite. It wasn't Hitler, who was Austrian. I forget the dude's name, actually. I could probably find it, but I don't care to. You're right. Arabs are Semites, and there are a few more people that are as well, or at least that use Semitic languages (some various folk in Ethiopia).
What?!! Etheopeins are AFRICAN AMERICANS not semitic!!!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 25, 2014, 01:45:10 AM
1/32 is being ignored. The rest of you, please continue.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on January 25, 2014, 01:55:23 AM
When is Israel secretly planning to nuke a populated city and blame it on Iran? I know they have some sort of secret Jew News Network they broadcast on Jew frequencies.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Thork on January 25, 2014, 01:56:37 AM
It's so nice to just read a long string of "You are ignoring this user. Show me the post." messages.
Yeah, you are all ignoring him, and posting it ad nausium every time he posts is a real treat for everyone else. ::)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on January 25, 2014, 01:57:35 AM
How do you ignore users? I can't find the button for it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Benjamin Franklin on January 25, 2014, 01:57:52 AM
Yaakov, in your opinion, what is the best way to achieve peace in the middle east? I know it's a broad question, so feel free to focus on just Israel and Palestine.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 25, 2014, 02:07:55 AM
IRUSH, no comment. Benjamin, that is a DANGEROUS question. My own distaste for Arabs of any variety, and Muslims of any sort, means that my solution to the Israeli-Palestinian problem would be to compensate all Arabs in Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip monetarily for any property they own and then deport them to the Arab country of their choice, of which their are 22. I am NOT the best person to ask that question, and I shall freely admit that my reactions are utterly beyond rational. I can feel my blood boil just thinking about it.

I apologise, Benjamin. I don't mean to be harsh. I'm no Nazi, I'm not into murder, or any crazy batshit stuff like that. But I freely admit that my reaction is not at all fair or rational by most people's standards. Forgive my inability to communicate on that subject. Ask me ANYTHING else but that, please.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 25, 2014, 03:02:33 AM
Israel is handling the situation far more delicately than I would, by NOT engaging in what is politely termed 'population transfer'. In fact, notice that any Arab, even in the Occupied Territories, can stand on a street corner w/ a picture of Netanyahu that says, 'Netanyahu sucks ass.' That's his legal right. Try to do that in Saudi Arabia, or pretty much ANY Arab country, w/ a pic of its leader. 'The Ayatollah sucks ass.' Ok, not Arab, but you get my point. You go bye-bye real quick.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on January 25, 2014, 03:16:48 AM
Israel is bordering on genocide. I'm sorry, but you can't pretend they're entirely justified
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 25, 2014, 03:26:20 AM
If Israel were bordering on genocide, they'd have succeeded. How many Arabs of the Occupied Territories have been killed? I want numbers, real figures. Not just fuzzy 'Oh, people die.' No shit. Every yr, Israel prevents app. 800 terrorist attacks on its soil. The latest was intended for the US Embassy. Funny, the Chinese have been far more brutal to Tibet in their occupation there, I don't hear anyone saying genocide there. When I see the Jordan River run red w/ blood like the rivers of Rwanda in '94, which I won't, then I'll take a claim like that seriously.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 25, 2014, 03:31:26 AM
Mind you, I'm not saying that military occupation is fun. Not for Arabs, Tibetans, or for the Irish (until '98). Life sucks sometimes. But occupation & genocide are two different things.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on January 25, 2014, 03:32:52 AM
If Israel were bordering on genocide, they'd have succeeded. How many Arabs of the Occupied Territories have been killed? I want numbers, real figures. Not just fuzzy 'Oh, people die.' No shit. Every yr, Israel prevents app. 800 terrorist attacks on its soil. The latest was intended for the US Embassy. Funny, the Chinese have been far more brutal to Tibet in their occupation there, I don't hear anyone saying genocide there. When I see the Jordan River run red w/ blood like the rivers of Rwanda in '94, which I won't, then I'll take a claim like that seriously.

You don't hear people arguing about Tibet because it isn't controversial. Everyone with an opinion on the matter, more or less, agrees that China is guilty of disgusting human rights violations.

Anyway, I'm sure all of the dead children were evil terrorists out to get the pure, innocent Israelites

All I'm saying is that you can't pretend that Israel isn't at least half at fault
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 25, 2014, 03:44:41 AM
Let me point out that occupation sucks. It also happens that the Arabs of the OT like to build rocket launchers next to kindergartens. Then, when kiddies die, they blame the IDF. This has been verified by the UN & other international forces.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 25, 2014, 03:49:10 AM
& I never said Israel didn't fuck up on occasion. & when they do, their own Supreme Court is pretty good @ calling them out on it. & Israel is the only occupying power in the world that allows the occupied to sue in Israeli Courts, & they often win when they do.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 25, 2014, 04:01:54 AM
Well, I think we've tangled assholes enough on that topic. I did warn you all that I could get quite heated on the subject of the Arab-Israeli problem. I strongly suggest we move on to other issues. Politics is fine, just not THOSE politics.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on January 25, 2014, 05:09:07 AM
IRUSH, no comment.

I'll find out your Jew secrets eventually. You might as well give them up now.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: rooster on January 25, 2014, 05:32:36 AM
IRUSH, no comment.

I'll find out your Jew secrets eventually. You might as well give them up now.
I actually lol'd.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on January 25, 2014, 10:35:07 AM
Please elaborate. I haven't been on a plane in yrs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzE7xN65E7Q

Why are Teh Jews obsessed with finding little bugs in salad? I mean, we figured out about 200 years ago that we're covered with crawling bugs (http://insects.about.com/od/ticksmites/f/Do-We-Really-Have-Bugs-Living-In-Our-Eyebrows.htm), right?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on January 25, 2014, 10:57:58 AM
You’re a Jew. If there was another wailing wall, exactly like the one in Jerusalem, but close to taco stands and cheap prescription drugs, would you still be able to wail at it?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on January 25, 2014, 12:47:44 PM
Getting circumcised differentiated us then & now from those not of the Covenant.
Don't basically all American males get circumcised? A fair few people from Islamic countries that I know have also been circumcised. It doesn't seem to differentiate you at all, unless all you care about is being different from Europeans.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 25, 2014, 01:57:08 PM
From what I understand, Americans did that for about 30 yrs as a cleanliness measure, but no longer do so much any more. The Arabs are the children of Ishmael, Abraham's oldest by Hagar, & like him, do it @ age 13. Other Muslims do the same. I've read Qur'an & some of the Sunnah of the Prophet & have seen the command to circumcise, but never the reason. In the Bible, the reason is clear: to make him part of the Covenant. Why by that method I don't know. But why Muslims do it is irrelevant, ultimately. They not of the Covenant. We are. What Scripture tells us to do, we do.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on January 25, 2014, 02:17:32 PM
From what I understand, Americans did that for about 30 yrs as a cleanliness measure, but no longer do so much any more.
I can't claim to be certain of this, but as far as I know it's still a thing. Perhaps the Americans in this thread could weigh in?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on January 25, 2014, 02:45:26 PM
It is definitely still fairly normal in America.  My sister had a boy a little over a year ago and they circumcised him.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on January 25, 2014, 02:47:56 PM
I hope you slapped her.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on January 25, 2014, 04:03:27 PM
From what I understand, Americans did that for about 30 yrs as a cleanliness measure, but no longer do so much any more. The Arabs are the children of Ishmael, Abraham's oldest by Hagar, & like him, do it @ age 13. Other Muslims do the same. I've read Qur'an & some of the Sunnah of the Prophet & have seen the command to circumcise, but never the reason. In the Bible, the reason is clear: to make him part of the Covenant. Why by that method I don't know. But why Muslims do it is irrelevant, ultimately. They not of the Covenant. We are. What Scripture tells us to do, we do.

The Bible (Old Test) talks about The Covenant? Doesn't that mean it covers everyone, Jews, Christians, Muslims?

Also you didn't answer my last question.  :'(
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Hoppy on January 25, 2014, 05:49:32 PM
Why do Jews have a big nose?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: bj1234 on January 25, 2014, 06:30:50 PM
So they can smell the gold easier? ;D

What is the reason for not eating dairy product with meat products?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: rooster on January 25, 2014, 06:42:02 PM
From what I understand, Americans did that for about 30 yrs as a cleanliness measure, but no longer do so much any more.
I can't claim to be certain of this, but as far as I know it's still a thing. Perhaps the Americans in this thread could weigh in?
Yep, still pretty normal. The one person I was aware of being uncircumcised had British parents. Americans are starting to catch on that it's a totally useless practice but still mostly happens for the social norm of it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 25, 2014, 06:49:30 PM
Please repeat the last question. The son of the Promise was Isaac, & his son Jacob [Israel] (who got the birthright from his father), & his sons the Twelve Tribes of Israel were those of the Covenant. God did make of the Children of Ishmael a great nation, but they were not of the Covenant. The meat-dairy thing is a derivative of the Torah law of not boiling a kid in its mother's milk. The Rabbis made the law stronger to 'put a fence around the Torah'. If you didn't break the stricter law, you couldn't break the written one. This also explains why I'm traditional, but not precisely Orthodox.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 25, 2014, 06:53:32 PM
Fap, little bugs in salad? I've never encountered that. But if one is going to use ranch dressing, which is dairy, bugs might count as meat, I suppose.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Roundy on January 25, 2014, 07:36:41 PM
Why do Jews have a big nose?

Because air is free.

@Yaakov: Just out of curiosity do you keep kosher?  Why do the kosher laws exist (or is it even a case of rationality vs "God says this so this"?  I'm just curious; my mother has a theory about kosher law that it was originally about cleanliness in many cases (like, pigs and shellfish, being such utterly filthy animals), although she maintains that the meat and milk combo is purely a matter of ethics.  What do you think?

For the record I'd die before permanently giving up bacon, lobster, and cheeseburgers, but as I'm sure I've made clear I'm not a religious Jew.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 25, 2014, 08:06:05 PM
Roundy, I keep as close to kosher as possible. By this I mean that I avoid the forbidden animals. Because kosher slaughtered beef is not available in my city, I do eat regular beef. But when I can, I look for the kosher label on products like canned goods. As far as why kosher exists, I think your mother has something there. For example, lobster & other forbidden seafood are usually bottom-feeders, ie, they eat shit. However, it does ultimately come down to 'God said so.' I had no idea you were Jewish @ all. Cool. My family isn't religious either.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 25, 2014, 08:16:27 PM
I believe that no Jew has the right to tell another Jew how to be a Jew. For example, I'm @ a certain point & level of observance right now. I used to be less kosher. I want to be more kosher. But living in my city that is not possible w/o kosher markets & being in a tiny apt w/ a kitchen that can never be made kosher. I don't want some arrogant Orthodox prig telling me I'm not a good Jew. So I'll never tell a non-religious Jew that they are not a good Jew. If they want my help in becoming what I think is a better Jew, hey, they've got it, but otherwise, I respect where they're @, where I once was. We have to work together, & infighting is just stupid.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Thork on January 25, 2014, 08:25:28 PM
I believe that no Jew has the right to tell another Jew how to be a Jew.
What about Moses?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 25, 2014, 08:33:36 PM
Thork, obviously, that's different, wise-ass! But I walked into that I guess. LOL.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on January 25, 2014, 08:37:41 PM
A bacon lobster cheeseburger sounds delicious.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 25, 2014, 09:50:42 PM
Irush, forget about kosher laws, that just sounds nasty.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spoon on January 25, 2014, 10:03:44 PM
A bacon lobster cheeseburger

would eat.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on January 27, 2014, 10:57:53 AM
Would you invite me for dinner?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 27, 2014, 11:02:31 AM
Sure, why not?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on January 27, 2014, 11:04:21 AM
I might offend your religious family.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on January 27, 2014, 04:40:18 PM
A bacon lobster cheeseburger sounds delicious.
Yes, it does.
http://www.yummly.com/recipe/Surf-n_-turf-burger-_grilled-burger-with-lobster-and-bacon_-367955
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/CWR0k32_B-OE0tHlilRMSjQqYKa-n4TkS02fWufn9cYtZN8IkBr3npU4YTDgTlZSVgBbX4-8UuZKz0ZHsxtXHC8=s730)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on January 27, 2014, 05:55:38 PM
It doesn't look as delicious as it sounds.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Alchemist21 on January 27, 2014, 06:33:52 PM
How do you even fit that into your mouth?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Roundy on January 28, 2014, 02:12:07 AM
Somewhat ironic: kosher salt is one of the ingredients.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on January 28, 2014, 02:39:48 AM
Oops.  Looks like you have to add your own cheese.  :-[
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on January 28, 2014, 04:49:57 AM
Would you stone a guy for picking up sticks on a Saturday?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spoon on January 28, 2014, 05:12:15 AM
y r jew?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 28, 2014, 05:40:28 AM
Pizza, full Torah Observance is only possible in the days of Messiah. Spoon, I'm uncertain as to what your question means. If you are asking 'Why are you a Jew', well, because I am. If you mean, why am I an Observant Jew when my family isn't & I wasn't raised as such, the answer is multi-faceted. But, in simplest terms, I am a Jew because God has called me to serve Him in that unique way. He has never abandoned His People Israel, & I believe it is my duty to uphold my end of the Covenant, as He has upheld His.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on January 28, 2014, 05:47:16 AM
Actually, I don't wanna have dinner with you.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spank86 on January 28, 2014, 09:32:11 AM
Why do Jews have a big nose?

Because air is free.

@Yaakov: Just out of curiosity do you keep kosher?  Why do the kosher laws exist (or is it even a case of rationality vs "God says this so this"?  I'm just curious; my mother has a theory about kosher law that it was originally about cleanliness in many cases (like, pigs and shellfish, being such utterly filthy animals), although she maintains that the meat and milk combo is purely a matter of ethics.  What do you think?

For the record I'd die before permanently giving up bacon, lobster, and cheeseburgers, but as I'm sure I've made clear I'm not a religious Jew.

Interesting idea although Pigs are actually pretty clean animals. I seem to remember hearing somewhere a suggestion that it was mostly stuff that would go bad quickly in a hot climate and so the laws were to prevent people from getting sick from gone off food?

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 28, 2014, 03:10:30 PM
Do you have any idea what pigs will eat? They are scavenging animals. Hardly a clean beast.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on January 28, 2014, 03:12:21 PM
If they are domesticated, they will eat what you feed them.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: rooster on January 28, 2014, 03:14:26 PM
I just think pig tastes nasty regardless. I never eat it pork.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 28, 2014, 03:32:50 PM
Rama, that is true. ANYTHING you feed them.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on January 28, 2014, 03:58:27 PM
Rama, that is true. ANYTHING you feed them.

Yeah!  So if you feed a pig quality food are they dirty animals?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 28, 2014, 04:14:54 PM
Well, I suppose not. But ask your avg hog farmer what he feeds his pigs. I live in Iowa. Hogs are big business around here as you would guess. They are cheap to feed & raise, cheaper by far than cattle. If farmers were to have to start treating pigs like cattle, their meat would cost as much as beef. The incentive to own them would disappear. So, given what they eat in the wild, & what humans are inclined to give to them even under domestication, I think the designation of the pig as 'filth' stands.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spank86 on January 28, 2014, 04:23:00 PM
Do you have any idea what pigs will eat? They are scavenging animals. Hardly a clean beast.

Well being as they're omnivorous they'll eat anything but in the diet of wild pigs carrion and other refuse would form an extremely small part.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 28, 2014, 04:25:21 PM
Hm, I was told differently. But even a small part is still a part.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spank86 on January 28, 2014, 04:30:59 PM
Hm, I was told differently. But even a small part is still a part.

Cows eat grass they've pissed on.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 28, 2014, 04:40:32 PM
I assume that's true. All animals, by virtue of being witless beasts, do things that people would not do.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spank86 on January 28, 2014, 04:57:40 PM
I assume that's true. All animals, by virtue of being witless beasts, do things that people would not do.

Exactly. Making pigs generally no more unclean in their diet than other animals.

Cows are a good example in many ways, the whole BSE issue in England was allegedly exacerbated by the delightful process of feeding them (in part) their deceased brethren.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 28, 2014, 05:07:29 PM
Yes. I agree. But a cow, when left to its own devices, feeds on grass (even peed-upon, I'll grant). A pig, when left to its own devices, feeds on God knows what.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spank86 on January 28, 2014, 06:07:04 PM
Yes. I agree. But a cow, when left to its own devices, feeds on grass (even peed-upon, I'll grant). A pig, when left to its own devices, feeds on God knows what.
Acorns, roots, tubers, and yes the occasional carrion (otherwise known as meat... potentially meat from a dead cow that's eaten peed upon grass, ewww).
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on January 28, 2014, 07:43:30 PM
Yes. I agree. But a cow, when left to its own devices, feeds on grass (even peed-upon, I'll grant). A pig, when left to its own devices, feeds on God knows what.

The potential for eating dubious food stuffs is an unimportant consideration. Why are t you considering what they actually eat?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on January 28, 2014, 08:10:15 PM
Do you have a pouch of jew gold hanging from your neck?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on January 28, 2014, 08:18:47 PM
I am a Jew because God has called me to serve Him in that unique way.
Did God tell you to be mean to EJ?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 28, 2014, 11:49:40 PM
EJ called me to be mean to EJ. As for what animals usually eat v. what they could eat, I'll grant your point. In theory, its probably possible to negate the need for some of the kosher laws depending on how you keep, & what you feed, a pig. But I don't see farmers doing that. & there is also the point that the laws exist & should be followed because God told us to, reason irrelevant. Of COURSE I have a pouch of Jew gold hanging from my neck! I'd never leave home w/o it! [Says the man on Disability who barely has 2 pennies to rub together].
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on January 28, 2014, 11:52:07 PM
If you met someone who could prove they were an Amalachite would you rape and/or kill them?  Or do you think you killed them all the first time?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 29, 2014, 12:02:14 AM
Well, if you don't ask questions that would cross a Rabbi's eyes! To my knowledge, Amalekites do not exist. I have heard some argue that the Arabs of the Occupied Territories are Amalekites. I don't accept this myself. If they DID exist, would that call for a holy war against them? Good God, I don't know how to answer a question like that! Thank God they don't, is all I can say.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Hoppy on January 29, 2014, 01:23:34 AM
Do you have a pouch of jew gold hanging from your neck?
Yes.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on January 29, 2014, 01:26:07 AM
Why would you doubt that you should wage war with any Amalekite you encounter?  Do you think God was ambiguous in what he felt the lot of the Amalekites should be?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 29, 2014, 02:25:21 AM
That is a fair question. How to answer questions like this is why there different forms of Judaism. For example, Orthodoxy believes the Temple will be rebuilt & the animal sacrifice restored. For them, killing an Amalekite, if 1 existed, would be obligatory. The Reform believe the Synagogue replaced the Temple. Similarly, the command of the Prophets later in the Bible to love thy neighbour outweighs the command to kill. The prophetic emphasis on God as a universal God, rather than just the God of Israel, makes him God of the Amalekites (if any) just as much as God of the Jews. So the question is, is Judaism a religion of set immutable laws that must be followed come hell or high water, or is it a philosophy such that the spirit of the law changes as people change in their understanding of themselves, each other, & their God? We have seen that Orthodoxy & Reform have 2 very different answers to this question. My own answer is in the middle somewhere. Some would call me a Conservative Jew. I prefer to avoid
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 29, 2014, 02:28:25 AM
denominational labels. I am a moderately traditional Jew. I prefer to work out my salvation w/ respect for all the various understandings of Judaism that exist, & to take the best of each.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Roundy on January 29, 2014, 03:33:17 AM
What is your opinion of atheists?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 29, 2014, 03:45:46 AM
My brother & his wife are both atheists. I'm certainly not in agreement w/ them, but I respect their right to hold their views. Most atheists I've known have been sincerely unable to commit to belief in a Deity for which they can find no empirical proof. I don't blame them. Although I am willing to accept religious &/or philosophical proofs for God's existence, I understand that others are not prepared to do this.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Alchemist21 on January 29, 2014, 07:20:38 AM
How does the Jewish faith view interfaith marriages?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on January 29, 2014, 07:32:56 AM
Pizza, full Torah Observance is only possible in the days of Messiah.
Why?

Also, I was wondering about you, personally. Would you do it if you saw someone disrespecting the Sabbath?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spank86 on January 29, 2014, 08:05:36 AM
Why would you doubt that you should wage war with any Amalekite you encounter?  Do you think God was ambiguous in what he felt the lot of the Amalekites should be?
Genetics perhaps?

By this time it would be extremely unlikely for anyone to be purely Amalekite in the absence of a lot of inbreeding.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 29, 2014, 02:33:14 PM
Alchemist, Orthodoxy & the Conservative movement forbid such marriages. In the event that 2 persons wish to marry in the Jewish community, the non-Jew must become a Jew. The Reform & Reconstructionist movements permit intermarriage. Pizza, no, I would not. Then again, I don't live in a place like KJ either. Try going through there in a bathing suit, or even your woman not covering her head. You might get stuff thrown @ you. The reason Torah will not be in full force til Messiah comes is because the Jewish Commonwealth cannot be set up, or the Temple rebuilt & dedicated, w/o him. & it is the Jewish Kingdom of Israel in the reign of Messiah that will impose Torah Observance.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on January 29, 2014, 02:37:42 PM
How does the Jewish faith view interfaith marriages?

My mom did that. My dad is Catholic and my mom is Jewish. It really depends on the community. The relatively progressive jewish community of Atlantic City was fine with it. She works in a hasidic community, though, and from my understanding hasidic jews who do the same thing get exiled.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on March 21, 2014, 08:16:13 PM
hasidic jews who do the same thing get exiled.

Without irony.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DDDDAts all folks on March 21, 2014, 10:50:48 PM
I don't think I know any Jewish people.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on March 21, 2014, 11:31:21 PM
How do I get rid of dry and flaky skin under my beard?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DDDDAts all folks on March 21, 2014, 11:45:10 PM
remove beard
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on March 22, 2014, 12:15:20 AM
Unacceptable.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on March 22, 2014, 12:32:44 AM
Does Jerry Seinfeld channel his jokes through YHWH?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Thork on March 22, 2014, 01:12:33 AM
How often do you have to sing Hava Nagila?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Thork on March 26, 2014, 10:27:04 PM
Where is that tardy Jew? We have questions.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on March 27, 2014, 06:04:46 PM
Hello. Sorry for my rather lengthy absence. Greetings. Back now.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lemon on March 27, 2014, 06:06:07 PM
How does one become a Jew? Considering it's a religion, it'd have to be possible. Also, I have a phobia of going through the different pages of threads, so if you already answered, just let me know.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on March 27, 2014, 06:59:36 PM
How does one become a Jew? Considering it's a religion, it'd have to be possible.

Be born a Jew. Because Judaism is a religion it's possible to be born a Jew.

You can convert, but that not really the same thing. You basically become one of those "familiars" from the Blade films.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on March 27, 2014, 11:08:55 PM
Yes, one can convert to Judaism, & be accepted into the Jewish Faith & People. Because being Jewish encompasses being culturally, ethnically, & religiously Jewish, conversion to Judaism requires more work than most faiths which do not have the ethnic or cultural components. Each movement of Judaism has differing requirements for conversion. For that matter, each Rabbi does things a bit differently. Furthermore, conversion by one movement doesn't guarantee acceptance by other movements. It can be complicated. However, all conversions will require 1-3 yrs prep time during which there must be learning about Jewish Faith & life. Generally, the more liberal the movement, the shorter the conversion process. If you wish particular information about a movement's requirements, let me know & I shall endeavour to provide it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 14, 2014, 02:50:13 PM
Let us mark the passing of 3 innocent people for the Sanctification of the Holy Name of God. Although 2 were not Jews, the coward who shot them outside a Jewish community center didn't know that. As for the shooting @ the assisted living facility, her identity is unknown @ present. But she too died as a Jew, whether she was one or not. May they all make an aliah to God on High, & may their innocent deaths teach us the value of life. And may the coward who perpetrated this act against innocents be punished to the fullest extent of the law, & may his name be forever blotted out from memory.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on April 14, 2014, 03:36:29 PM
Let us mark the passing of 3 innocent people for the Sanctification of the Holy Name of God.

Context please. Sigh. Googles. OK.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/14/us-usa-kansas-shooting-idUSBREA3C0MX20140414

Although 2 were not Jews, the coward who shot them outside a Jewish community center didn't know that.

True. But they're still not Jews. Knowing or not knowing something does not change the state of the thing known.

As for the shooting @ the assisted living facility, her identity is unknown @ present. But she too died as a Jew, whether she was one or not.

No she didn't.

Basically the guy was a dick. I'm sure he'll get the full wrath of the law (assuming the people shot were white). But that doesn't mean you get to auto convert the deceased to your favourite deity of choice. That seems crass and disrespectful to me.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 15, 2014, 03:07:27 AM
No one's trying to auto-convert anyone. It turns out the 3rd person was Catholic. But all 3 were perceived to be Jews. That is why they were killed. They should be honoured accordingly in their final rest. I hope @ their funerals, someone from the Jewish community makes it a point of being present. Their sacrifice should not go unnoticed.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on April 15, 2014, 05:47:47 PM
No one's trying to auto-convert anyone. It turns out the 3rd person was Catholic. But all 3 were perceived to be Jews. That is why they were killed. They should be honoured accordingly in their final rest.

No they shouldn't.

I hope @ their funerals, someone from the Jewish community makes it a point of being present. Their sacrifice should not go unnoticed.

They didn't make any sacrifice. I get sick of this word "sacrifice" that gets thrown around. They were shot. A retard had a gun and they were shot. They didn't choose to get shot. It was a thing that happened to them. They were shot. The world is not a better place thanks to them being shot.

If a Jewish person attends the funeral it should be at the behest of the family, not because he wants to "make a point". Would you expect a Walmart manager to attend the funeral of a person shot outside a Walmart?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on April 16, 2014, 06:05:58 AM
jroa told me all jews listen to Twisted Sister. Is this true?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 16, 2014, 07:43:42 AM
No it isn't. I've never heard their music.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 25, 2014, 08:30:39 AM
Yaakov, are the Jews literally Satan? Brother Nathanael seems to think so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAXiqIOTl6Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fuIXc74Zn0
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on August 25, 2014, 09:06:39 AM
I like his beard
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 25, 2014, 10:23:51 AM
Well, one, Israel has no territorial designs beyond what it currently controls (in terms of her Government). Even those of us who do would limit greater Israel to Israel Proper, The Gaza Strip, The Golan Heights, and the West Bank. Saying anything about wanting everything from Morocco to Israel just makes him look like a schmuck.

Given that "the Synagogue" has never been a threat in Russia, the statement re: Putin is just stupid. In fact, in the latest mess in Ukraine, the Right Wing Government in Kiev has been heavily Neo-Nazi influenced, to point that the Chief Rabbi of the city has ordered the Jewish community there to flee the city, and preferably the country. Many of them have actually gone to Putin's Russia to seek support.

Our friend Nathanael is clearly an idiot. He knows very little about Judaism. In fact, he knows so little about it that I wonder if his claim to having been a Jew isn't invented bullshit. If its actually true, then he must have been in one of those shuls where worship has taken a back seat to social justice. That would be a Reform Temple for one. For two, there are very few that have fallen into that trap, probably just the same percentage of churches that have.

He does have a neat beard. Rather like my own.



Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on August 25, 2014, 10:58:52 AM
post pics of your beard
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 25, 2014, 11:13:05 AM
I mean, God, yes, there has always been a streak of anti-Semitism in Russia. That can't be denied. The Czars followed anti-Semitic policies (most of them) as did the Soviet Government, but Putin never has. I've never heard a Jew, Russian or otherwise, complain about Putin in particular. A lot of Russian Jews would like to leave Russia, but that is not because they hate Putin per se. That is because a lot of people generally would like to leave Russia, because her economy is a mess, opportunities there are limited, and one can do better elsewhere. It has nothing to do with Putin currying favour with Russian Orthodoxy. That is to be expected. He's a Russian. What would you expect him to do, curry favour with Confucianism? I mean, really! People can be stupid!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on August 25, 2014, 11:21:12 AM
Is it true that Jews are greedy money-grubbers?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: The Terror on August 25, 2014, 12:39:32 PM
Why did you study undercover at a Mosque for 2 years?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on August 25, 2014, 01:21:22 PM
Know thy enemy?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on August 25, 2014, 07:56:01 PM
Why did you study undercover at a Mosque for 2 years?

Adding on, if you went to Mosque, did the prayers, and followed the rituals doesn't that mean you're going to Hell for having another god before your Jewish god?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lemon on August 25, 2014, 08:04:21 PM
Yahweh was a god damn war god.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on August 25, 2014, 08:27:09 PM
Why did you study undercover at a Mosque for 2 years?

Adding on, if you went to Mosque, did the prayers, and followed the rituals doesn't that mean you're going to Hell for having another god before your Jewish god?
Since Jews and Muslims both worship the God of Abraham, I doubt it.  If he's going to Hell, it's probably for being a jerk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Abraham
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on August 25, 2014, 09:05:17 PM
And I thought Jews don't believe in Hell.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 25, 2014, 09:05:35 PM
Most of us don't believe in hell, so the question is moot. & knowing my enemy was the point.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on August 25, 2014, 10:10:44 PM
Most of us don't believe in hell, so the question is moot. & knowing my enemy was the point.
So they were your enemy BEFORE you learned about them.

How interesting...
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 25, 2014, 10:41:05 PM
I knew about them already. I just confirmed my views. Nothing to see here, carry on...
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 25, 2014, 11:13:30 PM
So they were your enemy BEFORE you learned about them.
Just like America and Iraq (◕‿◕✿)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Snupes on August 26, 2014, 12:34:27 AM
What do you think of this piece of wonder?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RihOOLx919s
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 26, 2014, 12:51:20 AM
Only Weird Al can do that! That was fucking hilarious! I haven't laughed that hard in weeks!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on August 26, 2014, 01:30:03 AM
Most of us don't believe in hell, so the question is moot.

I can comprehend the idea of hell, therefore it exists.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on August 26, 2014, 08:04:28 AM
Did the Hall of cost really happen?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on August 26, 2014, 11:06:47 AM
Is it true that Jews are greedy money-grubbers?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on August 27, 2014, 10:00:39 AM
Why does this:

Quote
The fact is, persons related to modern Jews by ethnic and religious ties (commonly called Hebrews and Israelites) have resided in that territory of the Levant for 4500 years, at various times ruling over it as an independent state.

Give Jews the right to their own country?  And by whose authority? 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 27, 2014, 11:21:18 AM
Well, very simply, because permanent residence in a place, particularly with the control of a nation in that territory through history, is widely deemed by international legal theorists to give one claims on said land. And the Jewish claim on that land is definitely superior to the Arab claim to it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Thork on August 27, 2014, 11:26:34 AM
Well, very simply, because permanent residence in a place, particularly with the control of a nation in that territory through history, is widely deemed by international legal theorists to give one claims on said land. And the Jewish claim on that land is definitely superior to the Arab claim to it.
Because God said so?

I think if you look at the biological traits of both parties, you'd be hard pushed to make a case for Jews being from that area, when all of their neighbours have distinctly different physical characteristics.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 27, 2014, 11:31:59 AM
You evidently don't study much, or even get out much. Jews that ARE from that area share DNA with Jews from other parts of the world. It has been proven that although Jews are a mixed bag, they all share some ancestry from the Levant. You obviously have your head in your ass. And Levites, do with themselves, and Cohanim do with themselves. You really need to get out more. Perhaps a visit to your proctologist is in order.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on August 27, 2014, 11:49:44 AM
Is it true that Jews are greedy money-grubbers?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 27, 2014, 05:09:21 PM
Most of us don't believe in hell, so the question is moot.
Wasn't Sheol basically hell during the Second Temple period? What happened to that?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on August 27, 2014, 05:15:28 PM
Did the Hall of cost really happen?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 27, 2014, 05:22:29 PM
Well, some of us do believe in Sheol, but that is not Hell as Muslims and Christians understand the term. I personally believe in a Sheol, if you will.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on August 27, 2014, 05:29:51 PM
Is it true that Jews are greedy money-grubbers?
Still waiting for an answer, Yaakov.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 27, 2014, 06:28:47 PM
Its a stupid question.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on August 27, 2014, 07:35:00 PM
Its a stupid question.
Irrelevant.  You are the one who invited everyone to "Ask a Jew anything."  So, I guess that you're obligated to either answer the question yourself or pass it off to another Jew to answer.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 27, 2014, 07:42:07 PM
Neither I nor any other Jew is obligated to answer a retarded question. Grow up, put on your fucking big girl panties or big boy shorts, and act like an adult.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on August 27, 2014, 07:43:03 PM
You made the title ask a Jew anything. Stop trying to jew your way out of answering questions.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 27, 2014, 07:43:31 PM
Ooh, anti-semitism at its best.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on August 27, 2014, 07:59:40 PM
Basic externalization of negative factors. Instead of admitting you're a terrible person, you'd rather think people that hate you specifically instead hate Jews in general.

also:

Is it true that Jews are greedy money-grubbers?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lemon on August 27, 2014, 08:01:29 PM
I hate when people cry anti-semitism when it isn't. Israel isn't all Jews (regardless of your opinion on it) and disliking a single Jew (without using all-jew insults) isn't anti-semitism.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: The Terror on August 27, 2014, 08:13:47 PM
Is racism wrong?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on August 27, 2014, 10:02:31 PM
Neither I nor any other Jew is obligated to answer a retarded question. Grow up, put on your fucking big girl panties or big boy shorts, and act like an adult.
Moving the goal posts, are we?  Maybe you should have said "Ask a Jew anything but a retarded question", but you didn't, so you're the one who needs to suck it up and remember where you are.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 27, 2014, 10:07:30 PM
Well, some of us do believe in Sheol, but that is not Hell as Muslims and Christians understand the term. I personally believe in a Sheol, if you will.
My (very limited) understanding is that the original understanding of Sheol was the abode of the dead to which all people eventually go, regardless of how good or evil they were; but it seems like later on (the Second Temple period) this interpretation was altered to suggest that Sheol is divided into compartments for the good and evil. Is this inaccurate?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 27, 2014, 10:52:23 PM
PIZA, as far as I am aware, that is inaccurate. But the problem is the following. Judeo-Christian understandings of the afterlife were, as you are no doubt aware, heavily influenced by two things: Zoroastrianism from Persia, and Grecian philosophy. In fact, Judaism developed ideas of Hades, which as you no doubt also know was the Greek abode of the dead, also where people were neither happy nor unhappy.

Judaisam and Christianity were both influenced by the Greeks, but Christians followed that up with HEAVY Roman thinking, especially in the West. We Jews got a lot less of that. To this day, most Jews do not acknowledge a hell-like place or region.

But that is not universal. Little in Judaism is. Some Jews do believe in Hell, albeit a minority. I would say the majority of us do believe in an Afterlife, but I have known some who don't. And even those of us who do don't worry about it all that much. Where we end up is rather irrelevant in the end. The fundamental fact is that, with or without an Afterlife, the Law of Moses must still be followed.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on August 28, 2014, 01:19:07 AM
If I wrote a book, titled it "Judaism is bad, mmkay? By: God" would you be forced to follow its every whim?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on August 28, 2014, 01:54:54 AM
Its a stupid question.
Why are you afraid of answering the question though? A simple yes or no would do.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 28, 2014, 02:39:43 AM
IRUSH, I would be forced to conclude that you are an idiot, not that I haven't already, but... Beardo, ok, I'll deal with the question, stupid though it may be. Do Jews have that reputation? Yes, they do. Is there a cause? Yes. In an age where Jews could be and often were forced to leave countries they had lived in for centuries (England, 1290, Spain, 1492, Portugal, 1493, various parts of Russia on a regular basis throughout the years on up into the early 20th century, the same with parts of Poland and Lithuania, etc), they very quickly learned to keep as much of their monetary wealth in liquid assets as possible. What this fundamentally meant was keeping it in gold and other precious metal, jewels, and paper money and coin.

What it comes down to, is you can't carry land! Anyone stupid enough to keep land was going to lose it when they next were forced to move. If you kept your shit in portable wealth, you could move from say, Russia to America, and still land on your feet when you got here.

I don't know why this question isn't obvious. I mean, seriously, how hard can this be to figure out? But, any way, that's the best answer I can give. It has nothing to do with Jews wanting more money than the next guy. It has to do with our tendency of being told to leave a place with only what we can carry. So, we learned to carry our wealth, if any. We also got damn good and helping out our own. If one Jew is in need, other Jews will usually help him. That's just the way it is. We work that way.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on August 28, 2014, 02:42:14 AM
Is there anybody here, apart from you, who isn't an idiot?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 28, 2014, 02:47:27 AM
Well, Lord Wilimore is not, and there are several more who are not. But there are several who are. I simply see myself as filling a social need by pointing out who the idiots are.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on August 28, 2014, 02:49:36 AM
We are all truly indebted to you for this valuable service. In fact, you probably already know exactly how much we owe you, since you're a Jew lmao
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 28, 2014, 02:56:14 AM
Ah, yes, let me see, that will cost you $22.34. Joking aside though, I think my answer to that question was sufficient. It is not a topic I like to discuss for obvious reasons. But, alright. There you are.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 28, 2014, 03:16:26 AM
Only "Palestinians" could agree to the same exact cease-fire that they had refused weeks ago, after watching 2,100 of their people die, and call it a victory. These people are truly, without a doubt, at least in leadership, the dumbest, sorriest ass fuckers on earth.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on August 28, 2014, 04:18:45 AM
Are the Jews a race of people or followers of a religion? I've seen it go both ways. Furthermore, if I convert to Judaism do I become a Jew? Or am I a white man practicing Judaism?

Also, on a more personal note, how is your marriage? Are there any things you can't do in bed because you're a Jew or is it pretty much free reign? Who usually wears the pants in a Jew relationship? Is it God?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: The Terror on August 28, 2014, 09:36:03 AM
Can you make a golem?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 28, 2014, 01:23:51 PM
Judaism is an ethnoreligious group. A person converting to Judaism is joining the ethnoreligious group. So a Caucasian man, or a Black man, or an Australian Aboriginal man (not that I've ever known any) who became a Jew would be classified a Jew in the full sense of the word.

Some things shouldn't be done in bed like having sex during your wife's monthly flow, or anal sex (forgive me for putting it so bluntly). I don't know of anything else that is directly forbidden in the sexual realm. Traditionally, the man was the "biblical head of his household" in an Orthodox Jewish home, and in such homes, that is often still the case. But in more modern environments, that is oft-times no longer the case, and the couple is more egalitarian. In my home, we are more egalitarian.

Of course, even in the more traditional home, God is considered ultimately to be the head of household. Its kind of odd, because on one hand, traditional Jews are taught that women are closer to God in some ways. They don't have to pray as much, and synagogue attendance for them is not required the way it is for men. At the same time, because they don't do those things, they are generally not as learned.

Part of the problem lies in their different responsibilities. As keepers of the home they don't have time to read the holy books the way men do. All we have to do is work. Our job is actually much easier than theirs. Lets just say its complicated.

Now, the last question about making golems is truly stupid.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on August 28, 2014, 01:49:10 PM
What do you have against stupid questions?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: The Terror on August 28, 2014, 02:54:36 PM


Now, the last question about making golems is truly stupid.

They had a golem on the X Files.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on August 28, 2014, 04:05:47 PM
Now, the last question about making golems is truly stupid.
So you're saying that Judah Loew ben Bezalel didn't create a golem to defend the Prague ghetto? ???
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 28, 2014, 04:11:21 PM
Was this in the X Files?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: garygreen on August 28, 2014, 04:51:11 PM
Read further for clarification. I'm not suggesting we DELIBERATELY bomb civilians. I am suggesting we take away ISIL's ability to make war. If that means knowing that some civilians are going to turn into dogmeat, so be it.

Why do you believe that we shouldn't deliberately bomb Arab civilians?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on August 28, 2014, 06:53:20 PM
IRUSH, I would be forced to conclude that you are an idiot, not that I haven't already,

If you think that it is a dumb idea, why are you already doing it?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on August 30, 2014, 11:27:22 AM
I have a question about something you said.

You spoke of how Jews bought land from absentee Arab landlords and implied that everyone was OK with the sales.
If Muslims want all Jews dead, why did those Arabs (who were likely Muslim) not only approve the sale but not slaughter the infadels immediately?  Aren't they commanded by God to murder?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 30, 2014, 11:44:21 AM
Most of them were not Arabs, but Turkish. They were USUALLY part of the Turkish administration or upper crust of society who could have given a shite about who owned what where in "Palestine", whether they were Jews or Felahin. The Turkish may be Muslim, but they are first, Turkish. That has ALWAYS made them a little strange. As non-Arabs, they have some different motives than the Arabs do.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on August 30, 2014, 12:51:23 PM
Most of them were not Arabs, but Turkish. They were USUALLY part of the Turkish administration or upper crust of society who could have given a shite about who owned what where in "Palestine", whether they were Jews or Felahin. The Turkish may be Muslim, but they are first, Turkish. That has ALWAYS made them a little strange. As non-Arabs, they have some different motives than the Arabs do.
And what about the Muslims nearby?  Why did they not slaughter the Jews?

Also, did you just claim the existence of a moderate Muslim?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: The Terror on August 30, 2014, 03:00:43 PM
Was this in the X Files?

No, the Prague story is on Wikipedia.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 31, 2014, 01:58:15 AM
LORD DAVE, Ever heard of the Hebron Massacre of I think 1929? And Turks are confusing. I don't know what they are, but given Erdogan's antics, I don't know how much I trust their so-called "moderation".

As far as Golems go, that is entirely new one me. I admit! It must Kabbalistic stuff. I'll look into it and get back to you.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on August 31, 2014, 02:14:50 AM
Where can I get a good bacon cheeseburger?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on August 31, 2014, 02:22:00 AM
The Bible forbids that you wear clothing made of multiple materials. Do you attempt to follow this? If so, how clearly do you define multiple materials?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 31, 2014, 04:40:04 AM
At this point, I do not attempt to follow this. My level of observance is my own. At some point, I may attempt to follow it. But, for the most part, I usually wear cotton pants and cotton shirts. I don't wear wool except rarely in winter, as its too damned hot, even that time of year. A Jew's observance is always his own. No other Jew would ever ask him about it, except maybe his own Rabbi. I am not offended by the question, but it would not be asked within the community.

Multiple materials are defined as exactly that: different cloths. Leather is not a cloth, so someone can wear cotton and leather shoes, for example, but not cotton pants and a polyester shirt. The prohibition refers to CLOTHING, not protective gear for the feet (ie, shoes), or things like that. Mind you, this is, of course, all interpreted. I suppose there might be some who have disagreements with the interpretations.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on August 31, 2014, 04:52:06 AM
Is the rule taboo to talk about? The Bible does put forth a lot of rules to live by and some are strangely specific. Is it ever considered that some of the rules may be worded incorrectly, or the meaning of certain words has evolved over the years and twisted the original meaning? For example, you make a specific distinction between clothing and shoes. What if that is not the case?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on August 31, 2014, 04:52:25 AM
Why would "materials" only refer to "cloths"? Why are shoes not clothing? Why don't you take this rule seriously?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 31, 2014, 04:30:56 PM
I shall try to answer the questions, and then must go offline for a few days, as I am violently sick with God only knows what. The rule is not taboo to talk about. It is not even taboo to ask another Jew about his level of observance, although it is only rarely done. What IS taboo is to make value judgements ABOUT another Jew's level of observance. This is considered to be extremely rude, and will be quickly met with a "Go fuck yourself" response. Its like going into someone's house as their guest and criticising the decor.

It is, of course, perfectly legitimate to ask, if one is a guest in another Jew's home, what level of kosher they keep, so you know whether you are able to partake of the food. But, usually, asking isn't necessary. If you are an Orthodox Jew and you are in a Reform Jew's home, you can probably be pretty sure that he doesn't keep strict kosher to the degree that you do.

In terms of what are classified as clothes and what are not, I suppose that definition COULD have changed over the years. In fact, to be honest, it probably has. Could that have caused "issues"? Perhaps so. I just go with the most common interpretation, and leave it at that.

For me its not that I don't take the rule seriously. I fact I do. Its that I am trying to follow the other 612 (quite literally; there are 613 Commandments of the Law), and something has to give!

Seriously, it is hard for a Jew, almost impossible, to follow all the commandments (of which for men currently performable today in the absence of a Temple there are about 230, and for a female about 270 [the laws on female cleanliness provide a few more for her]). So, we do the best we can. We are not perfect. But every day we strive for greater observance, and to be better Jews.

I appreciate the questions, sincerely. But I have to ask for a pause for a few days, as I am very sick with some kind of bronchial infection that is just making me want to lie abed and get well. I shall come back when I feel better. Thanks.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on August 31, 2014, 04:45:00 PM
LORD DAVE, Ever heard of the Hebron Massacre of I think 1929? And Turks are confusing. I don't know what they are, but given Erdogan's antics, I don't know how much I trust their so-called "moderation".
You mean the massacre spread by misinformation about Jews taking control of Muslim areas? 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on August 31, 2014, 06:01:25 PM
Well, very simply, because permanent residence in a place, particularly with the control of a nation in that territory through history, is widely deemed by international legal theorists to give one claims on said land. And the Jewish claim on that land is definitely superior to the Arab claim to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pKMV6e5kEo
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on August 31, 2014, 06:20:28 PM
My level of observance is my own. ... A Jew's observance is always his own.

First: How can you claim any moral authority if each person gets to follow the religion however they like? Eg I'm a Christian but I still enjoy murdering.

Second: This is bullshit and you're living in a make believe world. The more religious the community the more that community, and not just its leaders, will judge its members.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I00Em_R2uU

NB it's pretty hard to google anything negative about judaism without links being returned that baww about WWII. Just sayin'.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 01, 2014, 12:06:53 PM
FAPP, humourous, but rather inaccurate as these things go. There haven't been any nuclear bombs going off (yet). As far as moral authority, perhaps I should have specified that outside the ultra-Orthodox community things tend to be as I have described them. And further, just because a Jew's observance is his own doesn't mean that we all don't try for greater observance and obedience. Most of us, except the very lax Reform types, do.

The only thing I meant by "a Jew's observance is his own" is that another Jew does not typically judge a person's observance, unless he is that person's Rabbi or other spiritual leader (Cantor, or rarely, some other office). This is NOT to say that a Jew can get away with what he wants and still call himself a good Jew. That would be foolish, as you correctly note.

I'll sign off again for a day or too, as I've exhausted what strength I had to type this much.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 01, 2014, 02:08:30 PM
I wish to clarify, for the record, AGAIN,  what I said, so the willfully stupid can't interpret it the wrong way. EVERY  religious Jew that I have ever met has ALWAYS been trying for greater observance of the commandments. The moral ones come first. Not murdering, not taking shit that isn't yours, not screwing your neighbour's wife, these are obviously big ones. Ritual commandments come later, after you have trained yourself in the "don't fuck over your buddy" rules. This is where you get to not eating pigs, and other certain things, and wearing certain clothes with other clothes, and so-forth.

Even making the statement that a Jew can get away with murder but claim to be a good Jew is just stupid. And before we get started on Israel, please note that that subject has been covered to death, and Hamas is claiming a victory. So let them have their so-called "victory". I expect, of course, in about 3 more years we'll all be back at this point, just as we have twice before (not counting this time for a total of three times). But, hey, let them have their "victory".

I have to run. Sick though I am, I have things to do with my equally sick wife, like getting groceries for the week.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 01, 2014, 02:38:35 PM
Incidentally, I know this is a complete non sequitur, but whatever happened to Excelsior John?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 01, 2014, 02:49:03 PM
Well, very simply, because permanent residence in a place, particularly with the control of a nation in that territory through history, is widely deemed by international legal theorists to give one claims on said land. And the Jewish claim on that land is definitely superior to the Arab claim to it.

God told me in a dream that he was giving me your car. I expect the keys in the mail by next week.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 01, 2014, 02:53:40 PM
Even making the statement that a Jew can get away with murder but claim to be a good Jew is just stupid.

No it is not stupid, it is quite germane actually. On the one hand, the moral commandments are the most important to master first but on the other hand when you break Israeli's break it by killing school children it is ok. It is an insidious double standard and you ought to feel like a fool for subscribing to a system of belief that is so sociopathic.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 01, 2014, 02:54:38 PM
Well, very simply, because permanent residence in a place, particularly with the control of a nation in that territory through history, is widely deemed by international legal theorists to give one claims on said land. And the Jewish claim on that land is definitely superior to the Arab claim to it.

Isn't possession 9/10ths of the law? 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 01, 2014, 02:58:40 PM
If the "Palestinians" do not want their people to end up in body bags, then they need to stop throwing rockets at Israel. Simple solution to the problem."When it is quiet in Israel, it will be quiet in Gaza." And no, idiotic sayings with no basis in legal fact won't get you very far in real life.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 01, 2014, 03:15:11 PM
If the "Palestinians" do not want their people to end up in body bags, then they need to stop throwing rockets at Israel. Simple solution to the problem."When it is quiet in Israel, it will be quiet in Gaza." And no, idiotic sayings with no basis in legal fact won't get you very far in real life.

If the "Israelis" do not want their people to end up in body bags, then they need to stop slaughtering children. Simple solution to the problem. "When it is quiet in Gaza, it will be quiet in Israel."
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 01, 2014, 03:20:25 PM
If the "Palestinians" do not want their people to end up in body bags, then they need to stop throwing rockets at Israel. Simple solution to the problem."When it is quiet in Israel, it will be quiet in Gaza." And no, idiotic sayings with no basis in legal fact won't get you very far in real life.

What does your statement have to do with being a good Jew other than reinforcing the wrathful zeal that Israeli's sometimes apply to being immoral?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 01, 2014, 03:22:51 PM
The difference is, Israel doesn't attack civilians with intent. They attack military targets that Hamas sets around civilians. Then those civilians die. Then Hamas complains. Waah fucking waah. Whatever. Last I checked, Israel did not attack Gaza until Gaza started throwing rockets. So, like I said, waah fucking waah.

It doesn't, RAMA SET, but I knew that someone would bring up the topic, so I thought that cutting them off at the pass might be a good idea.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 01, 2014, 03:31:15 PM
http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/avedah2.html (http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/avedah2.html)

Quote
Jewish law recognizes that property may become ownerless by one of two means: (1) abandonment, which is an express renunciation by the former owner of his ownership; or (2) express or implied "forsaking hope" of reclaiming an object which one has legal title, but not possession by the owner of that item. Abandonment is effective only for property in one's own possession at the time of abandonment. By contrast, forsaking hope is applicable to both lost and stolen property; it is a relinquishment of the right to have the property returned. It results from external, involuntary circumstances which have placed the property beyond the possession of the owner, and the owner's realization that he is unlikely to ever recover his property. These juridical concepts in Jewish law find nearly perfect analogy in the common law doctrines of relinquishment and abandonment.  For example, after abandonment in Jewish law and abandonment in common law, the finder of lost property can properly exercise dominion over the object, thereby vesting title and absolute ownership in himself.

Based on this and the history of the area being taken and conquored by various empires over the years Jews can easily be seen as having implied "forsaking hope" and the only right they have to the land is what was granted to them by the UN.  And that's basically a gift that the people who lived there (the rightful owners) rejected.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 01, 2014, 04:12:54 PM
The difference is, Israel doesn't attack civilians with intent. They attack military targets that Hamas sets around civilians. Then those civilians die. Then Hamas complains. Waah fucking waah. Whatever.

Sounds like you need to work on being a good Jew.

Quote
Last I checked, Israel did not attack Gaza until Gaza started throwing rockets. So, like I said, waah fucking waah.

Except when it is Jewish settlers invading lands they are forbidden by treaty to settle mirite?

Quote
It doesn't, RAMA SET, but I knew that someone would bring up the topic, so I thought that cutting them off at the pass might be a good idea.

You did a terrible job of cutting off any lines of inquiry. In fact all you did was bring it to the fore. Well played Trollstein.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 01, 2014, 07:19:25 PM
QUOTE: "Based on this and the history of the area being taken and conquored by various empires over the years Jews can easily be seen as having implied "forsaking hope" and the only right they have to the land is what was granted to them by the UN.  And that's basically a gift that the people who lived there (the rightful owners) rejected."

Except that no Jew at any time ever relinquished hope of a return to Jerusalem and the Holy Land. In fact, it has been said in Passover Seders across the world EXCEPT in Eretz Israel, "Next year in Jerusalem." All Jews knew that it would be ours again eventually. So the principle of abandoning hope does not apply.

Israel has no settlers in Gaza, and has not had any since 2005. There is not a single Jew in the territory.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on September 01, 2014, 07:20:44 PM
I thought you were too sick to post.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 01, 2014, 07:29:30 PM
I'm back on my feet again, at least temporarily. And someone answer my question. What happened to my good pal EJ?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lemon on September 01, 2014, 08:17:53 PM
Sorry if this has been asked.

Are you a Jew convert or were you "born" a Jew?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 01, 2014, 09:36:32 PM
I was born in the Covenant.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 02, 2014, 01:04:13 AM
QUOTE: "Based on this and the history of the area being taken and conquored by various empires over the years Jews can easily be seen as having implied "forsaking hope" and the only right they have to the land is what was granted to them by the UN.  And that's basically a gift that the people who lived there (the rightful owners) rejected."

Except that no Jew at any time ever relinquished hope of a return to Jerusalem and the Holy Land. In fact, it has been said in Passover Seders across the world EXCEPT in Eretz Israel, "Next year in Jerusalem." All Jews knew that it would be ours again eventually. So the principle of abandoning hope does not apply.

Israel has no settlers in Gaza, and has not had any since 2005. There is not a single Jew in the territory.
Couple of things.

1. Jerusalem is not Israel. 
2. This is said even by modern Jews IN Jeruselem.
3. This is not a statement of ownerhip.  Jews can celebrate passover in a place without owning it.

So the meaning is worthless yet its still uttered which indicates habit, not declaration.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 02, 2014, 02:27:33 AM
To my knowledge, Jews in Jerusalem do NOT include those words in Passover Seders. Furthermore, in Orthodox & Conservative prayer books, daily prayers are rendered for the return of our People to Israel, as well as a prayer for the State of Israel. It seems pretty clear that Jews always claimed ownership of the Land.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 02, 2014, 02:54:06 AM
Israel has no settlers in Gaza, and has not had any since 2005. There is not a single Jew in the territory.

None in Gaza but plenty in East Jerusalem and West Bank which are almost unanimously condemned as illegal by all articles if international law and the international community; they are also in violation if the Geneva Convention.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 02, 2014, 09:59:07 AM
And that is relevant how? The UN has long ago failed in its purpose, let them bleat about "international law" all they wish. The fact is, The Arabs lost both East Jerusalem AND the West Bank fair and square in a war that the Arabs started (the Six Day War, in which, yes, Israel attacked first, but then, what would you do if hostile armies were surrounding your borders with every clear intention of attacking you). This was confirmed by their loss in a war that they DEFINITELY started, namely, the Yom Kippur War. You don't get land back when you start wars and lose them.

Your reliance on laws that don't apply to circumstances won't get you very far in the modern age. I strongly recommend instead that you grow up, put on your big boy pants, act your age, and look at the world as it really is, rather than as you think it should be in your whiny, anti-Semitic (or if you prefer, I'll use the term "Judeo-phobic") little pea-brain.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 02, 2014, 10:32:40 AM
And that is relevant how? The UN has long ago failed in its purpose, let them bleat about "international law" all they wish
Let's hope most of your kin do not subscribe to these views. UN member states outnumber Israel quite significantly.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 02, 2014, 10:38:01 AM
Indeed, but the US, which has veto power, tends to feel the way I do. I mean, seriously, The US and Israel play the game in the UN, but that's about the extent of it. You know it and I know it. The fact is, the UN buildings in the US and in Switzerland should be bombed to holy hell, as should the international court at the Hague. The people in them should be given thirty minutes to exit first. And then if the rest of the world wants to be assholes to Israel, fine, let them. Then the USA and Israel can turn the Middle East into a parking lot and build a kosher Wal-Mart there. This should have been done along time ago. All of the Middle East except Israel should have been made a parking lot after the 241 Marines were killed in Lebanon. Very simple. Both Israel and the US have nukes. We wouldn't have to use them , though. Fire-bombing, and carpet bombing, should be enough.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 02, 2014, 10:53:05 AM
Holy shit, you don't just want Israel dead, you want the whole world dead.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on September 02, 2014, 11:16:13 AM
Do you like Pizza?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 02, 2014, 11:18:33 AM
Provided its made with kosher ingredients, yes.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on September 02, 2014, 11:31:15 AM
What's that?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 02, 2014, 12:03:18 PM
What's that?

A rabbi has to kiss a baby's penis before the food can be cooked.

Indeed, but the US, which has veto power, tends to feel the way I do. I mean, seriously, The US and Israel play the game in the UN, but that's about the extent of it. You know it and I know it. The fact is, the UN buildings in the US and in Switzerland should be bombed to holy hell, as should the international court at the Hague. The people in them should be given thirty minutes to exit first. And then if the rest of the world wants to be assholes to Israel, fine, let them. Then the USA and Israel can turn the Middle East into a parking lot and build a kosher Wal-Mart there. This should have been done along time ago. All of the Middle East except Israel should have been made a parking lot after the 241 Marines were killed in Lebanon. Very simple. Both Israel and the US have nukes. We wouldn't have to use them , though. Fire-bombing, and carpet bombing, should be enough.

I'm not sure you understand the more subtle points of diplomacy.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 02, 2014, 02:08:49 PM
And that is relevant how? The UN has long ago failed in its purpose, let them bleat about "international law" all they wish. The fact is, The Arabs lost both East Jerusalem AND the West Bank fair and square in a war that the Arabs started (the Six Day War, in which, yes, Israel attacked first, but then, what would you do if hostile armies were surrounding your borders with every clear intention of attacking you). This was confirmed by their loss in a war that they DEFINITELY started, namely, the Yom Kippur War. You don't get land back when you start wars and lose them.

Your reliance on laws that don't apply to circumstances won't get you very far in the modern age. I strongly recommend instead that you grow up, put on your big boy pants, act your age, and look at the world as it really is, rather than as you think it should be in your whiny, anti-Semitic (or if you prefer, I'll use the term "Judeo-phobic") little pea-brain.

I am anti-semitic because I think a country should honor the treaties it signs? 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lemon on September 02, 2014, 04:43:29 PM
Israelis tend to throw out accusations of anti-Semitism like it's Christmas and we're all orphans.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on September 02, 2014, 04:45:04 PM
What's that?

A rabbi has to kiss a baby's penis before the food can be cooked.
A disturbing notion.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 02, 2014, 04:48:39 PM
What's that?

A rabbi has to kiss a baby's penis before the food can be cooked.
A disturbing notion.

Anti-semite
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 02, 2014, 05:21:02 PM
I thought we weren't allowed to post in here? That was odd. My Nintendo browser indicated that this thread was being locked. Unless I accidentally clicked on the wrong one. And, to fill you in: the ancient practice of a rabbi not kissing a baby's penis after the bris but cleaning the blood with his mouth is based on the incorrect understanding the saliva was a sanitary thing that would help prevent infection in the baby's penis.

Far from being intended as anything perverted, it was intended to be a healthful thing. Now that modern science has proven that this is NOT the case, very few rabbis or mohels engage in the practice. Most prefer the medically approved method of wiping with alcohol or some other sanitary thing that kills germs. The few that do continue the practice are the few that simply refuse to budge regardless of the times, much like a Christian Fundamentalist, who might insist on the idea that humans co-existed with dinosaurs, despite evidence to the contrary.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 02, 2014, 05:37:47 PM
And no, we don't raise the cry of anti-Semitism unless that's what it is. Criticism of Israel is one thing. But when you start demanding that Israel behave in a way that NO other nation would behave, THAT is anti-Semitism. Any nation on earth, when directly attacked with rockets, would respond by sending troops to stop those rockets. Any government that failed to do this would be very quickly removed from power by its own people, either democratically or by force, for failure to lead.

And, yes, yes, I know, I am going to hear about Occupation. Well, Israel left Gaza in 2005. Completely left it. And had to partially re-enter in terms of taking control of the borders, the skies, and the water in 2007 when a terrorist organisation was given control by the people who live there.

A good rule of thumb is the following: If you don't want your neighbours to become alarmed and take control of your shit, don't elect terrorists as your leaders. This applies whether you live in Gaza or in Mexico.

I mean, come on, people, think. How hard is it to come up with common sense rules regarding people that want to fuck up your day?

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 02, 2014, 05:56:44 PM
And no, we don't raise the cry of anti-Semitism unless that's what it is. Criticism of Israel is one thing. But when you start demanding that Israel behave in a way that NO other nation would behave, THAT is anti-Semitism. Any nation on earth, when directly attacked with rockets, would respond by sending troops to stop those rockets. Any government that failed to do this would be very quickly removed from power by its own people, either democratically or by force, for failure to lead.

And, yes, yes, I know, I am going to hear about Occupation. Well, Israel left Gaza in 2005. Completely left it. And had to partially re-enter in terms of taking control of the borders, the skies, and the water in 2007 when a terrorist organisation was given control by the people who live there.

A good rule of thumb is the following: If you don't want your neighbours to become alarmed and take control of your shit, don't elect terrorists as your leaders. This applies whether you live in Gaza or in Mexico.

I mean, come on, people, think. How hard is it to come up with common sense rules regarding people that want to fuck up your day?



The please tell me how I was being Anti-Semitic.  I think any nation that sanctions their citizens to squat on land whose rights have been signed away by bi-lateral treaty is not behaving properly.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on September 02, 2014, 06:42:19 PM
Israel is literally perfect and anyone who dislikes it simply does so because it has Jews in it. But don't say it's a Jewish state, or they'll counter with "we do have some arabs, so we're totally like, not a Jewish state."
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 02, 2014, 08:13:50 PM
Israel has always stated that land would possibly be used for the natural growth of settlements. Aside from that, treaties cease to be valid when one of the signatories starts launching rockets at the other. Then, all is fair in love and war.

Incidentally, I am not an Israeli, but an English Jew living in the American Midwest State of Iowa.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on September 02, 2014, 10:44:44 PM
I'm back on my feet again, at least temporarily.

What's this? A Jew back from the dead?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 03, 2014, 12:50:46 AM
To my knowledge, Jews in Jerusalem do NOT include those words in Passover Seders. Furthermore, in Orthodox & Conservative prayer books, daily prayers are rendered for the return of our People to Israel, as well as a prayer for the State of Israel. It seems pretty clear that Jews always claimed ownership of the Land.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/274826/jewish/Next-Year-in-Jerusalem.htm
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/holidays/Jewish_Holidays/Passover/The_Seder/Conducting_a_Seder/After_the_Meal/Next_Year_in_Jerusalem.shtml
http://www.vox.com/cards/everything-need-to-know-passover-moses-seder/why-are-you-supposed-to-say-next-year-in-jerusalem

Those three links seem to contradict your knowledge.
It seems that they see Jerusalem as an Ideal, a wish, or with a rebuilt temple.

Quote
Furthermore, in Orthodox & Conservative prayer books, daily prayers are rendered for the return of our People to Israel, as well as a prayer for the State of Israel.
Can you give me the name of the prayer because I can't seem to find any that pray for the return of people to Israel.


I'd like to point out that the US has had a very real and threatening buildup of weapons at it's doorstep.
Cuban Missile Crisis.  Not that I expect you to understand.

I'm really really glad that JFK wasn't a Jew.  I'd have never been born.  Of course, Israel would have been destroyed in the process.  So maybe there would be peace by now?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 03, 2014, 03:12:34 AM
JFK was prob. the single worst thing that ever happened to the US. Much as I don't recommend assassinating people in general, in his case (& his brother) it was a blessing. Look up the Artscroll Siddur & Siddur Sim Shalom for prayers re: the State of Israel & returning to our Land. I'm too sick to do it for you right now, as those books are in boxes yet to be unpacked.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 03, 2014, 10:33:13 AM
JFK was prob. the single worst thing that ever happened to the US. Much as I don't recommend assassinating people in general, in his case (& his brother) it was a blessing.
Citation needed.

Quote
Look up the Artscroll Siddur & Siddur Sim Shalom for prayers re: the State of Israel & returning to our Land. I'm too sick to do it for you right now, as those books are in boxes yet to be unpacked.
Both of these are modern prayer books.  The Siddur Sim Shalom even touts passages celebrating Israel's existance and has works about the holocaust.

I'll wait until you can give me an actual prayer name, not a book published in the last 20 years.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 03, 2014, 11:21:06 AM
You really aren't that bright. Both books are modern, but especially in the case of the Artscroll, the prayers have gone mostly unchanged in about 500 years. Granted, the Prayer for the State of Israel is fairly new, no one disputes that. The Baum Prayer Book is actually the one I have. There isn't much difference between that and the Artscroll Siddur.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lemon on September 03, 2014, 02:18:09 PM

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 03, 2014, 02:30:52 PM
Even if that WERE accurate, which it is not, I am not an Israeli. By the way: Godwin's Law. You lose.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lemon on September 03, 2014, 02:34:52 PM
Do I lose or does Godwin win? I'm going to go with the latter. Regardless, it is common to compare Israel to Nazi Germany due to the similarities.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 03, 2014, 03:13:35 PM
Since there are no similarities, the comparison falls under Godwin's Law. Israel is NOT engaging in genocide. The "Palestinian" population has increased at least 4-fold since 1948, from 750,000 to 4,000,000 today. This number does not include Israeli Arabs.

If Israel wanted to commit genocide, it would be VERY easy to do. The so-called "Palestinians" are confined in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. It would not be hard to carpet bomb both areas to smithereens within about a week, thus eliminating the residents.

Lets face it: Hitler killed 6 million Jews in 12 years, 2/3 of Europe's Jews. If Israel is trying to commit genocide, and can't even do as well as Hitler did, then they obviously suck at it, since they have had 47 years to try.

The so-called "Palestinian Territories" are the only occupied territory in the world where the occupied are allowed to bring suit against the occupier in the occupier's Supreme Court, where in fact, they often win. Try doing that in Tibet.

So, yes, you do lose based on Godwin's Law, and you end up looking like a schmuck.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 03, 2014, 03:27:45 PM
Good so then you admit that it is an occupied territory as opposed to Israel's domain.  We are getting somewhere.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 03, 2014, 03:31:49 PM
I freely admit it is occupied territory. But it belongs to Israel. The fact is, all the "Palestinians" living there should be deported, with six months living wages, and eminent domain for any property they would lose, to the Arab country of there choice. Those who refuse to leave should be shot. The IDF HAS to occupy it since the wrong people are squatting there. Hence the need for military occupation. But yes, it is a military occupation. No one disputes that.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 03, 2014, 06:50:43 PM
You really aren't that bright. Both books are modern, but especially in the case of the Artscroll, the prayers have gone mostly unchanged in about 500 years. Granted, the Prayer for the State of Israel is fairly new, no one disputes that. The Baum Prayer Book is actually the one I have. There isn't much difference between that and the Artscroll Siddur.
It was new and in crisp modern writing.  Or so the description said.
I can't read the books for their prayer content without purchasing said book.  So if you would be so kind as to ...

Wait.  500 years?  That's it?
What happened to the previous 1,200?  Or 3,500?  Wouldn't a prayer having faith in returning to Israel have to be almost 2,000 years old for Jews to not have lost hope?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on September 03, 2014, 07:41:24 PM
The fact is, all the "Palestinians" living there should be deported, with six months living wages, and eminent domain for any property they would lose, to the Arab country of there choice.
What if their Arab country of choice is Palestine?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 03, 2014, 09:30:07 PM
LORD DAVE, as soon as I am feeling better, I shall access my books. The prayers of the Siddur assumed FINAL FORM around 500 years ago. Since then, the book hasn't altered. However, most of the prayers in it go back much further, 1000, 1500, even 2000 or more years.

Yes, I do see your problem. Knowing how expensive those books are, I wouldn't want to purchase them either unless I had some use for them beyond a discussion with someone online. I have the Baum Siddur that I got hold of here and there, the content of which is basically the same as the Artscroll. Only the Introduction and whatnot would be different. The footnoting might also be different.

I'll see what I can find in the next few days when I feel better. Not today though. For the moment, I shall withdraw my accusation of your not being that bright. (:
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on September 03, 2014, 10:51:26 PM
The fact is, all the "Palestinians" living there should be deported,

Why are you putting Palestinians in scare quotes?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lemon on September 03, 2014, 10:52:38 PM
The fact is, all the "Palestinians" living there should be deported,

Why are you putting Palestinians in scare quotes?

Maybe because he sees them as Arabs that don't belong there and as such there isn't really a Palestinian? Only Arabs living in Israel under unique conditions?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 03, 2014, 10:53:34 PM
Lemon, that is correct.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on September 03, 2014, 10:59:08 PM
OK imma put "Israelis" is scare quotes too.

Because they're only Jews living in Palestine under unique conditions.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on September 03, 2014, 11:19:11 PM
Since The United States rightfully belongs to England, I'm going to start referring to its occupants as "American"s".
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 12:46:27 AM
The word "Palestine" was invented by the Romans after they defeated the Jews and exiled most of them (not all) from the Land. The renamed the Land "Syria Palestina" to indicate that it was under the ultimate authority of the Syrian governorate.

If there has EVER, at any time, been a "State of Palestine", at any time in history, I will hand you a map. You will point to me where this internationally recognised state existed. And no, Philistia does not count, because the residents were not Arabs, as the current residents are.

You will tell me what kind of government ruled there. You will tell me the names of any leaders they had before Yassir Arafat. You will be able to inform me of the currency they used. You will tell me of their history, the wars they fought and won or lost, and the territory gained or lost as a result thereof.

Surely, these basic questions would not be hard to answer if there ever was an independent "Palestine" in history.

Oh, I'm sorry. You can't? Why not? Oh, because there never was such a state. Really. So if such a state never existed, then how does a nationality called "Palestinian" come to exist? Nationalities exist because nations exist that contain them. So, if "Palestine" was never a nation, then there were never "Palestinians", but only Arabs residing in a territory that the Romans once called "Syria Palestina".

So, now you look like a schmuck.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on September 04, 2014, 01:15:05 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine

It seems to exist, but only as a de jure state.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 02:33:43 AM
It exists only because some liberal western mind says it does. Like I said, name me one of its leaders before Arafat. Tell me what currency it used or uses? What form of government did it ever have in history? What wars has it ever won or lost? What other history has occurred that has affected this putative "State of Palestine"? Who, other than the UN, gave the "State of Palestine" any legitimacy at all? And before you say that the UN gave Israel legitimacy, to be honest, that is bullshit.

Israel established her territory, declared independence, and fought a war against five Arab armies to maintain that independence. All the UN did was acknowledge the already existing facts on the ground. Even if it hadn't, Israel would likely have told the UN to go fuck itself.

The UN is a waste of time and resources. It serves no purpose except to give tyrants a place to put themselves on display. The building in the US should be evacuated and imploded. The US should strike the buildings in Switzerland and the ICC in the Hague, after giving everybody a day's notice to exit the area. That accomplished, then the West should stop pussyfooting around with cowards who chop off heads of innocent journalists. In return for one journalist, we should go to Iraq, round up 100 ISIS sympathisers, and shoot them.

It IS that simple.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on September 04, 2014, 02:41:40 AM
You really need to work on your ability to say relevant things.

It exists only because some liberal western mind says it does.

Political borders can only be created by people. God doesn't give out land.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on September 04, 2014, 03:02:00 AM
The UN is the only reason Israel actually exists today and you know it.  Had the UN not given the Jews Israel and they were to try to invade Palestine to form their nation, they would have been rightfully slaughtered for being aggressors trying to steal other people's rightfully owned land.  You even mentioned that the Jews were defeated and kicked out of Israel by the Romans, last time I checked that means they lost all previous claims.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 03:22:58 AM
Given that even though most Jews were exiled from "Syria Palestina", but NOT all, and that Jews never gave up claim to the Land, they never did lose previous claims. The UN only recognised the accomplished fact that Israel had already achieved by declaring independence and then fighting a war against five invading armies and winning it. So no, they DID fight that war to form their nation, and they were NOT slaughtered, rightfully or not. They actually won. You aren't that bright, are you?

If you don't believe in God, that is your issue. I choose to accept that God DOES indeed give out land. It sounds like the problem is yours, not mine.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on September 04, 2014, 03:59:09 AM
The belief that God gave land to any group is what will continue the strife there. 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 05:52:38 AM
Sounds like personal issues to me.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on September 04, 2014, 05:57:42 AM
Sorry Yaakov, but it appears your god just gave me your land. I'm giving you a fair warning to leave right now or I viciously murder you. This is okay and morally sound because I'm warning you first.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 06:15:30 AM
IRUSH, my recommendation is that you see a psychiatrist. So far as I know, the only People in history ever to be so honoured were the Jews. Granted, a case MIGHT be made for the Japanese with their native Shinto Faith. As a Jew, I know ONLY what God has taught me, and expects of me and my People. We know nothing about what he has or has not taught non-Jews, and what he does or does NOT expect from them, aside from following the Noahide Laws, which we know he expects of all humans.

And since the Revelation on Mt. Sinai was to 2 million people, and not just to Moses, I trust it a lot more than I do your purported nonsense. So, yes. Do see a psychiatrist. Soon.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on September 04, 2014, 06:17:11 AM
IRUSH, my recommendation is that you see a psychiatrist. So far as I know, the only People in history ever to be so honoured were the Jews. Granted, a case MIGHT be made for the Japanese with their native Shinto Faith. As a Jew, I know ONLY what God has taught me, and expects of me and my People. We know nothing about what he has or has not taught non-Jews, and what he does or does NOT expect from them, aside from following the Noahide Laws, which we know he expects of all humans.

And since the Revelation on Mt. Sinai was to 2 million people, and not just to Moses, I trust it a lot more than I do your purported nonsense. So, yes. Do see a psychiatrist. Soon.

Oh, I see. You, personally, pick and choose who God talks to. That sounds like a sin to me. Hold on, let me ask God, who is currently appearing to me in the form of a rainbow colored unicorn.


God says that is undoubtedly a sin.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on September 04, 2014, 06:20:25 AM


And since the Revelation on Mt. Sinai was to 2 million people, and not just to Moses, I trust it a lot more than I do your purported nonsense. So, yes. Do see a psychiatrist. Soon.

Damn. 2 million people? No possible way Judaism could be wrong now.


Why don't such miracles and revelations happen in modern times? Has Yahweh abandoned us?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 06:21:54 AM
That is not at all what I said, but you will be a schmuck and interpret it that way. God chooses who he speaks to. But until I start seeing real evidence, like Scriptures, and whole new philosophies and nations rising from your purported visions, I won't hold my breath. VAUXHALL, I'll get to your question tomorrow, since it is legitimate.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 04, 2014, 10:25:51 AM
LORD DAVE, as soon as I am feeling better, I shall access my books. The prayers of the Siddur assumed FINAL FORM around 500 years ago. Since then, the book hasn't altered. However, most of the prayers in it go back much further, 1000, 1500, even 2000 or more years.

Yes, I do see your problem. Knowing how expensive those books are, I wouldn't want to purchase them either unless I had some use for them beyond a discussion with someone online. I have the Baum Siddur that I got hold of here and there, the content of which is basically the same as the Artscroll. Only the Introduction and whatnot would be different. The footnoting might also be different.

I'll see what I can find in the next few days when I feel better. Not today though. For the moment, I shall withdraw my accusation of your not being that bright. (:
Wait.  How do you not know the prayer name?  Or even a quote?  Aren't you Jewish?  Do you not recite it?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 11:15:49 AM
I'm Jewish, yes. But I've only been observant the last few years. And Hebrew is NOT my first language by any means. I can recite it fine in Shul. But I don't read the alphabet well, and prefer to use transliterated versions of the Siddur when I can get them. As for prayer titles, prayers usually get the titles of whatever their first word in Hebrew is. Because my Hebrew is questionable, I have to look that kind of thing up. I was able to find my Baum Prayer Books. I shall look up that information when my medication starts working, and I stop coughing.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 04, 2014, 12:38:44 PM
Nothing like a fly by night Zionist.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 03:58:38 PM
It should be noted as per the rather comical video on page 10 that no one ever really claimed the land as their home except the Jews. The Romans regarded it as a backwater province of the Empire that they hated being sent to and considered it a punishment if they were. The Muslim empires, Arab and Turkish, felt likewise. The Crusaders regarded the land as holy because Jesus came from there, but no one in their right mind wanted to stay. They all wanted to conquer it, and then return to Europe and let some other poor bastard have the job of governing the place. Only the Jews have EVER wanted the land as uniquely their own, until VERY recently, when the Arabs living there suddenly, without notice or historical precedent, started calling themselves "Palestinians". This term did not even exist until after the nationality was made up for it. Previously, the Arabs had been Egyptians in the Gaza Strip and Jordanians in the West Bank. It was only when Israel conquered these territories in the Six Day War, and even later, when both Egypt and Jordan gave up claims to the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, that the term "Palestinian" began to be bandied about. Yassir Arafat was born in Cairo, served in the Egyptian Armed Forces, and went to college in Cairo. That makes him, by pretty much every definition of the word, an Egyptian citizen. Inventing a new nationality, no matter how nice it sounds, simply doesn't work.

And let's be honest enough to admit it. Arabs and Jews don't fucking like each other. All this shit about sitting around a campfire holding hands and singing "Cumbaya" might work fine in fairy tales, but they don't work in the hard core reality of real life. Netanyahu said it correctly, whether you love him or hate him. "We (the Israelis) live in a tough neighbourhood." We can prattle on about whether Israel should or should not exist, and whether Arabs should or should not be in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, and yada, yada, yada. But the FACTS, my friends, are as follows:

1. Israel DOES exist. There is nothing that is going to occur that will stop it from existing. (a), it has the support of the United States, which it will always have, because there are enough Jews here to influence the government through AIPAC and so-forth. (b), there are enough Christian Zionists who also, for their own weird reasons, support Israel and also influence the government. (c) Israel has what is pretty much the best trained functional military in the world. Anyone who fucks with it ends up being turned into dogmeat. (d) Israel's continued existence will be guaranteed by the more moderate regimes of the Middle East, such as Jordan, Egypt, Turkey, and even Saudi Arabia, because, as much as these countries despise Jews, they know that the so-called "Palestinians" under Hamas or even under the PA are a bunch of pond scum that can't govern themselves. They know that "Palestinians" are all, for the most part, wannabe terrorists in training to blow shit up. Anybody who dresses up their baby in suicide bomber gear is fucked up, and these nations know that.

2. There is no possibility of a "Palestinian" State alongside Israel. Egypt doesn't trust it to exist in the Gaza Strip, Jordan doesn't want it in the West Bank, and Israel doesn't want it anywhere. No other part of the world wants it either, for the above reasons.

I would continue, but I have to run. An important phone call just came in. Chat with you all later.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lemon on September 04, 2014, 04:36:02 PM
I'm impressed by how much you just wrote, regardless of content.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on September 04, 2014, 04:52:00 PM
Desire to reside in a location does not trump ownership.  No American wants to live in Louisiana, it's a backward shit hole, this doesn't mean we would be okay with the UN handing it back to the French.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 07:04:33 PM
Jews have always owned Eretz Israel. Throughout 4500 years of history, Jews have had the longest connection to the land than any other group in history. As indicated above, the Arabs, and later the Turks, treated it as a backwater. They are newcomers to the territory, displacing the native Jewish population. Only in the 20th century, AFTER the establishment of the State of Israel, did any Arab begin to think of himself as a "Palestinian". Until 1967, the West Bank was under Jordanian rule, and the Gaza Strip was controlled by Egypt. Neither nation had any real desire to control either area. Both considered the areas as backwaters, basically pits to which incompetents got sent to administrate. The people living there were treated the same as the land in which they lived.

The only reason that anybody gives a rat's ass about the "Palestinian" problem is the left over anti-Semitism of bygone days. For the most part, it is politically incorrect in the US to hate Jews (some Jew hatred is tolerated in Europe, but not too much; more in the Eastern part than in the West, but not huge amounts thereof, at least not at present). However, it is politically ok in both Europe and in the US to hate Israel.

Of course, the people who hate Israel claim not to hate Jews. They claim that their hatred is reserved only for "Zionism" or for "Israel" or for some PC term such as "apartheid" even though there is absolutely no similarity between the South African variety of racial separation and anything that occurs in Israel and the Occupied Territories. It should be noted that the UN, however useless it may be, even said that their earlier declaration that Zionism was racism was in fact not true. That statement was retracted in the early 1990's.

Even the claim that hating Israel's governmental decisions, while possibly valid in its own way (after all, no one has to agree with every decision a government makes), often turns into Jew hatred. The people who despise the Government of Israel end up demanding that said Government behave in ways that NO government on Earth would behave. Israel already treats the Arabs of the Occupied Territories far better than any occupying power ever has in history.

In what other part of the world, at any time in history, has an occupying power allowed the occupied population to bring suit against it, even against the military itself, in that power's own Supreme Court, which in fact, often renders decisions IN FAVOUR of the occupied? Try doing that in Tibet.

What occupying power unilaterally leaves a territory as Israel did in 2005, pulling ALL of its military, citizens, etc, leaving its entire civilian infrastructure in place for the native population to use as they saw fit? They left a fully functioning horticultural industry, which of course, Hamas destroyed in order to use the materials for weapons against Israel. THAT is why, two years later, Israel had to retake control of the borders, the water border, and the air of Gaza, NOT because they wanted to. Hamas was importing weapons for use against Israel.

What military power fights a war that actually warns civilians to get out of the way before dropping ordnance on buildings and the like, which Israel does by leaflets, phone calls, text messages, and roof knocking? The fact that civilians end up killed is because Hamas refuses to let them leave, and even uses them as shields, and often puts military material in civilian things such as schools and mosques?

What other Government, when rockets are raining down on their civilian population, would be told to NOT do anything to stop it? If Mexico were shooting rockets at San Diego and Los Angeles, and other cities in the Southwest USA, the USA WOULD respond by bombing the living shit out of them, and everyone knows it. But for some reason, Israel is expected to take it.

So, I ask you my friends, to think. Think long and hard. What is the new anti-Semitism? I put it to you: it is the hatred of Israel that is so talked about at our left wing universities. It is the new style mindset that sits in the minds of our liberal politicians both here Stateside and in Europe. It is obviously in the mind of the radical Nazi minded Right, but they have their own weird racial theories that every sane person knows are crazy.

No, I tell you my friends, it is the supposedly enlightened left that we must fear today. So what will you do? Continue to be blinded by the bullshit? You can do that. And you can stand before God on Judgement Day and be asked, where were you when the one State in the Middle East that is worth a shit got stomped on, and to face another Holocaust, and yes, they won, because they always have, Jews are like that, they always find a way to kick some ass, but how many had to die first? Or will you stand now and fight for that State and what is right and decent against all the dictators and kings and other assholes that dominate that region and the horrors they represent? The choice is yours. If you make the wrong one, your future may be what an ISIS defector just said today.

First, they will make a caliphate of the Arab world. Then, they will go after other countries. Make your choice. And make it now.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on September 04, 2014, 08:15:24 PM
The US wouldn't indiscriminately bomb civilians with military targets. You have to minimize civilian casualties in a conflict these days or else you are seen to be a vile country, see Israel. No one is arguing they shouldn't defend themselves, just that they shouldn't be looking civilians by the thousands.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 08:22:12 PM
Read Paragraph Seven (7).
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on September 04, 2014, 08:24:30 PM
It's irrelevant.  You don't kill the hostages to solve a hostage situation.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 08:30:46 PM
If someone is using a rocket launcher to kill your people, and you have to stop that from happening, and you know there are people there, and you want them to leave, but they do not leave, then it is your right to remove the rocket launcher, even if you know that the people attached to it will die as a result. This is what happens in wars. At least, this is what happens in wars that are fought in any sane way. The USA and Britain did not apologise for bombing Berlin or Dresden. The USA did not apologise for bombing Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Shit happens, dude. That's why its not a good idea to fight a war when you know you can't win it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on September 04, 2014, 08:31:48 PM
I'm still waiting for an answer to my question. If it was somewhere in that drivel up there then forgive me.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on September 04, 2014, 08:44:42 PM
The US has repeatedly been criticised for the use of nuclear weapons.  Notice how those were the only two times a nation has actually used nuclear weapons.  Also, Israel has lost how many civilians in this current conflict, I'd have to double check but I think it's on the scale of 10s. The threat is there but Israel has a solid defense system to where they don't have to worry too much.  Meanwhile thousands of Palestinians have been murdered by Israeli rockets.  UN establishments have been targets of Israel.  The first time it happens you might be able to say oops, but the UN should have stepped on Israel the second time it happened.  They have zero concern for human life other than their own.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 08:48:56 PM
QUOTE: "Damn. 2 million people? No possible way Judaism could be wrong now.


Why don't such miracles and revelations happen in modern times? Has Yahweh abandoned us?"

I'm sorry! I forgot about that question. I shall try to answer it. Many people have asked themselves that. Why don't miracles of that nature occur today? Well, I can't say why they don't occur to non-Jews.

Here's the thing, Vauxhall. As a Jew, I know what God has commanded me, as a Jew, to do. I know what He has taught us, as our God, and we, as his People, to expect in our relationship with him. This not to say that I have direct telephone line to the Deity (boy, wouldn't that be nice). It is merely to say that the Jewish Bible contains within it all the revealed material that God has given to the People Israel. That material is what we NEED to know in order to please God, and to live up to our part of the Covenant. The Talmud and all that just explain the Bible. And God knows, the Talmud itself is 20 volumes long and takes up a HUGE amount of space on a bookshelf! And that is not the ONLY literature. There is so much that our Rabbis and other scholars have written trying to understand and probe and explain the Bible, and the Jewish Law, and Custom, and Jewish Life, and so-forth.

So why hasn't God caused miracles like that sort of thing to happen now? For us, the answer is simple: they are not necessary. As the Sages say: After Malachi, the Prophecy passed out of Israel. Now we live by what we have. We don't need more.

As for the non-Jews? I don't know. I don't know what God has taught them, or not taught them. I don't know what prophets or sages or wise ones he may have sent to them, although I expect that he did indeed send people. I am inclined to believe that men such as the Buddha, Mahavira, Gandhi, Confucius, and so-forth, were sent by God as Prophets to their own people, and that they taught them in ways that they could understand. But that is pure speculation on my part. I could be full of crap on that. I don't know.

I hope that answers your question. I apologise for not responding sooner.

Duck, as I said, when Israel suspects that Hamas is hiding something in a school, UN or otherwise (as they so often do, even in UN schools, as has been proven on more than one occasion), that renders it a valid military target. And since the UN has no right to even exist, the notion of them stomping on anybody is a bad joke.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on September 04, 2014, 08:59:22 PM
The member nations of the UN would surely say it has a right to exist but whatever.  Would you be condemning hamas for the murder of civilians if an Israeli military target was hit along with an Israeli school killing 25 children?  Ignore any real life evidence of anything and deal with the hypothetical.  I'm sure you would so you should be equally condemning Israel's murder of thousands.  Regardless of evacuation notices and such, if intelligence says civilians are present, an alternate method needs to be employed of removing the threat.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 09:01:24 PM
The key difference being that Israel doesn't put military shit anywhere near civilian shit. See that difference?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on September 04, 2014, 09:05:55 PM
You obviously didn't read my post or know what a hypothetical is.  Go back and read it again and give an honest answer.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 09:10:56 PM
I know what a hypothetical is. But such a hypothetical could never occur for a couple of reasons.

1. Jews are not stupid (for the most part).
2. Jews are ethical (for the most part).
3. Jews are strategically minded (for the most part).

In other words, a smart, ethical, strategically thinking Jew knows that it is very unwise to put civilians around military equipment. However, A Jew ALSO knows that if you DO put civilians around military equipment, and your enemy comes and bombs your shit, and kills your civilians that should not have been around your military equipment, you have no one to blame but yourself.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 04, 2014, 09:49:28 PM
In the US, when someone with rockets is firing on a position, the US government sends in elite soldiers to neutralize the threat.
In Israel, they just blow up the area around the rocket and hope it works.

Imagine if the US simply bombed abbottabad instead of just sending in Seal Team 6?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on September 04, 2014, 09:53:59 PM
The word "Palestine" was invented by the Romans after they defeated the Jews and exiled most of them (not all) from the Land.

The sense of entitlement is strong in this one.

Dude. Borders change. Please get over yourself.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 04, 2014, 09:56:38 PM
There is a difference between a valid military target and carte Blanche to kill everyone inside said target. See Duck's comment about collateral damage if you are confused. The development of the smart bomb was, in part, to alleviate this concern.

As to your claim that Jew's have always owned Israel, that is false and your own history bears that out. The Jews came down as a bunch of murderers and left no one alive and/or unraped.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 10:01:07 PM
The problem with that is that Abbottabad was ONE target. Israel is facing hundreds. You can't send special forces in to take out hundreds of targets. The next comment about borders has already been dealt with and needs no response here.

Frankly, a legitimate military target renders anything in it a part of that target. Collateral damage is unfortunate, but such is life. See the bombing of Berlin or Dresden as an example. 

As for the manner in which the Hebrews ENTERED the Land, 4500 years ago, wars were fought pretty fucking brutally. Such is life. Get over it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on September 04, 2014, 10:06:26 PM
As for the manner in which the Hebrews ENTERED the Land, 4500 years ago, wars were fought pretty fucking brutally. Such is life. Get over it.

You seem to be arguing that might is right.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 04, 2014, 10:07:42 PM
No, I am just acknowledging reality.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on September 04, 2014, 10:12:10 PM
Frankly, a legitimate military target renders anything in it a part of that target. Collateral damage is unfortunate, but such is life. See the bombing of Berlin or Dresden as an example. 

You mean the two events that are considered by many to be prime examples of overzealous and unnecessarily crude military action?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 04, 2014, 10:13:39 PM
ITT: A Jew claims that violent retaliations are justified when the target hates you.

Yaakov is literally Muslim.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on September 04, 2014, 10:18:26 PM
No, I am just acknowledging reality.

So acknowledge the reality that Jewish people aren't going to get their own country.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on September 04, 2014, 10:55:45 PM
If someone is using a rocket launcher to kill your people, and you have to stop that from happening, and you know there are people there, and you want them to leave, but they do not leave, then it is your right to remove the rocket launcher, even if you know that the people attached to it will die as a result. This is what happens in wars.
No.  This is why we have special forces (Mossad).

At least, this is what happens in wars that are fought in any sane way.
You seem to have a rather unusual definition of "sane".

The USA and Britain did not apologise for bombing Berlin or Dresden. The USA did not apologise for bombing Hiroshima or Nagasaki.
Different war, different times and different weapons.  Precision munitions did not exist during WWII.

Shit happens, dude. That's why its not a good idea to fight a war when you know you can't win it.
Apparently you don't realize that wars are not fought just on the battlefield any more.  These days wars are also fought in the media.  Dirty little secrets from both sides have a much easier time finding the light of day.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 04, 2014, 11:18:47 PM
No, I am just acknowledging reality.

So we should tell Jews to "just get over" the Hocaust then. Fair enough. I will give them your number if they have a problem with that.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 04, 2014, 11:51:31 PM
In the US, when someone with rockets is firing on a position, the US government sends in elite soldiers to neutralize the threat.
In Israel, they just blow up the area around the rocket and hope it works.

Imagine if the US simply bombed abbottabad instead of just sending in Seal Team 6?

Well, but the American military has talent. The Israeli military just has anger issues. It's not a fair comparison.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 05, 2014, 01:18:52 AM
In the US, when someone with rockets is firing on a position, the US government sends in elite soldiers to neutralize the threat.
In Israel, they just blow up the area around the rocket and hope it works.

Imagine if the US simply bombed abbottabad instead of just sending in Seal Team 6?

Well, but the American military has talent. The Israeli military just has anger issues. It's not a fair comparison.
I guess.
I mean, Israel has some of the most advanced weapons, not the most advanced soldiers.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 05, 2014, 01:28:11 AM
In the US, when someone with rockets is firing on a position, the US government sends in elite soldiers to neutralize the threat.
In Israel, they just blow up the area around the rocket and hope it works.

Imagine if the US simply bombed abbottabad instead of just sending in Seal Team 6?

Well, but the American military has talent. The Israeli military just has anger issues. It's not a fair comparison.
I guess.
I mean, Israel has some of the most advanced weapons, not the most advanced soldiers.

And they get the weapons from us. They have nothing of their own to add to the equation.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 05, 2014, 01:52:24 AM
Actually, yes, I've thought that for now, Jews do need to get over the Holocaust. Its about damn time. I mean, yes, we need to remember it, acknowledge it, pray for the victims and so-forth, but put on our big-boy pants and quit making ourselves the "oh feel sorry for me" group.

As far as the Mossad goes, again, you can't send even them (and yes, they are acknowledged as about the best special forces/CIA/FBI like group in the world) to take out 50 to a hundred targets at once. I notice no one brought that into the equation. Given that Israel has won every single war or conflict it has ever fought except the one it was not allowed to fight (the Suez matter), saying they lack talent is simply stupid.

Many, but not all, of their weapons, come from the USA. They invented quite a few of their own, the Uzi being one example.

So, children, grow up. Please observe the note to all the children: the adults are talking! If you can't be one, then go away.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on September 05, 2014, 01:55:37 AM
And they get the weapons from us. They have nothing of their own to add to the equation.

They received  their nuclear arsenal from South Africa during its Apartheid days (Israel supported Apartheid a lot, not surprising). This is right around the same time that JFK vehemently opposed giving Israel nukes because he knew they aren't powerful enough to maintain them and the country is too radical. Didn't take too long for them to assassinate him once that political stance was taken.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on September 05, 2014, 01:58:18 AM
As far as the Mossad goes, again, you can't send even them (and yes, they are acknowledged as about the best special forces/CIA/FBI like group in the world) to take out 50 to a hundred targets at once.
No, but they can take out a few in such a way as to "teach the others a lesson".
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 05, 2014, 02:07:01 AM
Except NO ONE has ever even SUGGESTED that JFK was assassinated by Israel except for your paranoid dumb ass. I mean, I have said, either in this thread or another, that the death of JFK was probably the best thing that ever happened to this country, along with the death of his brother. I don't normally encourage the murder of political leaders, but in their cases, I don't think  there were any alternatives.

And Israel has proven that it handles its nuclear weapons (which it doesn't admit to having) very well, and it has never used them. Not that it really could. I mean, think about it. Using a nuclear weapon in the Middle East would result in Israel being subject to its own bomb's fallout. Its only purpose is to scare. It is either too early to use, or to late to be of any use, or impossible to use.

Re: the apartheid issue, again, there is no similarity between Arabs in Israel and the apartheid system of racial separation that occurred in S. Africa. Arabs of the Occupied Territories are NOT citizens of Israel, and therefore, do not have rights to live in Israel, or to work there, or to vote, or what-have-you. They have far more rights under military occupation than ANY military occupying power has EVER given the occupied in the history of the world. Just compare their situation with Tibet for an example. Please note that Arab citizens of Israel have full rights, and enjoy full status as citizens, with Arabic being an official language, with full rights to practice their faiths, excused from service in the military except by choice, and full voting rights, with representatives in the Knesset.

If killing 2100 people isn't enough to teach so-called "Palestinians" a lesson, what the Hell makes you think that taking out  5-10 rocket launchers will do it? Are you that abysmally stupid?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on September 05, 2014, 02:49:05 AM
If killing 2100 people isn't enough to teach so-called "Palestinians" a lesson, what the Hell makes you think that taking out  5-10 rocket launchers will do it? Are you that abysmally stupid?
No, but you apparently are.  If you can take out rocket launchers without killing 2100 innocent civilians teaches the lesson that you can destroy your targets and still be a member of the civilized world.  After all, only barbarians intentionally cause unnecessary pain and suffering to their enemies.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 05, 2014, 04:19:36 AM
Why, in the name of all sane things, would you send special forces to take out rocket launchers, to risk their lives, when said launchers will only be rebuilt somewhere else within days? Far better to simply fight a real war and get it over with. Besides, Hamas seems to have claimed victory. How the Hell you claim victory after losing 2100 people, half of them militants, I don't begin to comprehend, but ok, fine.

And yes, I said half. The UN, which has no business even existing, says 30%, but then, we all know how trustworthy the great UN is. Such examples as Saudi Arabia, Syria, Cuba, and China have sat on the Human Rights Council. So, with those stellar nations advising all on how to behave ourselves regarding human rights issues, you'll pardon me if I consider the UN a bad fucking joke.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on September 05, 2014, 04:50:44 AM
Hamas isn't trying to eradicate Israel through conventional means anymore, they have targeted something far harder to repair.  Hamas has targeted Israel's reputation on the global stage and has succeeded in making them look like ruthless murders who show no concern for civilian lives.  So far they have done a great job of poking the nest to get them good and angry.  If Israel doesn't change, nations will start to turn on it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 05, 2014, 05:16:30 AM
To which the proper response is to pound them into dogmeat. And then demonstrate the facts of the matter. The truth is the truth. If civilians die, it is the fault of Hamas. If other countries are too stupid to see that, that sounds like a personal problem. Nobody will turn on Israel.

There are several reasons WHY nobody will turn on Israel. They can be summed up as follows:

1. Israel is the heart of Silicon Valley. Yes, I know that is a term used to refer to Central California, but in reality, Israel is producing a huge amount of computer know-how that other countries are then using.

2. Israel is one of the major inventors of new medical technology in the world. Of course, this is to the benefit of the world.

3. Israel invents the best weapons and defence mechanisms on Earth. The Iron Dome may have been financed by the USA, but it was invented and made by Israelis.

4. Israel has developed the best security systems in the world in terms of their airport, their planes, and their general security nationwide. This knowledge is of course used by other countries.

5. Jews make up .02% of the world's population, but have received 22% of all the Nobel Prizes awarded. The world cannot live without Jewish know-how and it knows it. If the world stops supporting Israel, we'll just say fuck you, and take our ball and go home.

You see, my friends, much as the Gentile would like, they can't survive without us. We could survive without you. Our lives would be very different, and probably much harder, but we could do it. You could not survive without us. Our existence greases the society in which you live.

The fact that in the past you restricted us to lending money is an indicator of how much you need us. Somebody had to do it. So you made it our job. And then blamed us because after 500 years, we got good at it!

And ultimately, you need someone you can treat as a scapegoat. You need someone to hate. Without that target to blow shit back, your little pea-brains would likely explode.

Jews have always done the hardest work in the Goy world. We're designed for it. God (at least in my opinion) created Jews to be the whipping boy of the human race so you all could feel fucking good about yourselves. But, then, in 1948, we got ours. And that's what pisses you off. Well, get the fuck over it.

You can hate us as Jews. You can hate Israel as the Jewish State. But fundamentally, deep down in that black pit of a heart you have, you know I am right. Goyim use us as a reason to justify their own poor performance in the world  they inhabit. Welcome to real fucking life. And when their own nations are fucked up, especially as bad as they are in the Middle East (pretty much every nation there is a shithole), they now have the Jewish State to blame and criticise, thus drawing attention away from the real facts, namely, that the other Middle Eastern nations suck big green donkey dick.

So, put on your big-boy pants or big-girl panties, suck it the fuck up, and accept it, you need us far more than we need you. Deal with it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 05, 2014, 09:52:39 AM
Do you think Jews are smarter than everyone else?  Because that's what I'm seeing in your comment.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 05, 2014, 11:49:37 AM
Not inherantly, no. Its not some sort of blood driven thing that says "my race is better than your race" or some crazy batshit stuff like that. But as a culture, we have ALWAYS prized education far more than the majority have. In an age when 95% of Europe was illiterate, EVERY Jewish male could AT LEAST read Hebrew. To this day, the average Jew is far more likely to be college educated than his non-Jewish counterpart, etc, etc.

So no, not inherantly. But culturally, yes, we prize that sort of thing far more than most cultures. Certainly we prize it more than Muslims, who make up 23% of the world's population but have earned only 1% of the Nobel Prizes to date. Of course, I am sure that if they offered prizes in such categories as "how to build a good suicide bomber vest", or "how to turn a plane into a missile", or even the cruder "how to blow shit up", why, then they probably would be at the top of their game!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on September 05, 2014, 12:28:15 PM
Why, in the name of all sane things, would you send special forces to take out rocket launchers, to risk their lives, when said launchers will only be rebuilt somewhere else within days?
Well, they could also take out the militants running those rocket launchers while they're there.  Besides, if you prove that rocket launchers in civilian neighborhoods aren't safe, then maybe they'll stop setting them up there.

Far better to simply fight a real war and get it over with.
And even better than that would be to limit collateral damage to innocent civilians as well as your own national reputation.

How the Hell you claim victory after losing 2100 people, half of them militants, I don't begin to comprehend, but ok, fine.
By making Israel look like brutal savages who have no regard for civilian casualties.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 05, 2014, 12:46:50 PM
QUOTE: "Well, they could also take out the militants running those rocket launchers while they're there.  Besides, if you prove that rocket launchers in civilian neighborhoods aren't safe, then maybe they'll stop setting them up there."

They know full well, as Israel does, as you do, that they can build those things right back there in about 15 minutes. That is a pointless argument.

QUOTE: "And even better than that would be to limit collateral damage to innocent civilians as well as your own national reputation."

Again, I submit to you that taking the time and effort to find 5 or ten rockets and spend the time and money required to destroy them at great risk to your own people, highly trained people, when they can be rebuilt within 15 minutes, does not seem logical or a in any way a smart way of fighting a war.

QUOTE: "By making Israel look like brutal savages who have no regard for civilian casualties."

Just because the rest of the world wants to have any reason they can find for continued Israel hatred and Jew hatred doesn't mean we as Jews have to watch Israel commit political suicide. That WOULD be just outright felony stupid.


Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on September 05, 2014, 01:07:09 PM
The majority of the world didn't hate Israel, but it is making it damn hard not to.  Everything that has been invented by a Jew would probably have been invented by a non-Jew eventually, even possibly at the same time. There isn't a single race or nationality that the world needs to keep going, someone else is always waiting to fill in the void.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 05, 2014, 01:41:56 PM
As I said, the world needs Jews just to have a convenient whipping boy, if nothing else. But I'll give you one thing that ALL of Western Civilisation depends upon. Hell, for that matter, so do the Muslims, even if they hate to admit it. Without it, none of you would be where you are today. So, let me grant that you could invent everything you have without our help (which I doubt, but for the sake of argument, fine). There is one thing you could not have created. The Jewish Bible (the Old Testament to you Christian influenced types). Without that, your entire worldview falls apart.

Without the Hebrew Bible, you would only have Greek philosophy, which in and of itself is not enough to keep a civilisation of any sort afloat long term. The fact is, they denigrated women and promoted homosexuality as ideal. That alone was a fatal fault that would have (eventually) destroyed their way of life. The Greeks were fine philosophers, and great artists, and so-forth, but their morality was in the toilet.

The pagan Germanics and Norse could not have welded themselves into a unified force without the fiction of "the Holy Roman Nation" and all that, which harks back to Roman Empire, which itself was Christianised, which religion came from guess what, Judaism!

Fundamentally, without Judaism as a motive force, Western Civilisation (and the Muslims as well, but that is a different conversation) breaks down. This is a fact that simply cannot be denied. Welcome to real life.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 05, 2014, 03:09:00 PM
Certainly we prize it more than Muslims, who make up 23% of the world's population but have earned only 1% of the Nobel Prizes to date.

The Nobel Prize is not the only nor the most accurate measure of the level of education of a culture.  It was probably euro-centric for a good part of its history, and it is limited to only a few fields of study.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 05, 2014, 03:33:08 PM
So, answer me a simple question: in the last 300 years, what, other than oil and thoroughbred horses, of value has the Muslim World managed to produce? Ok, I'll grant, Persian rugs, and Persian kitties are nice. The last are nice and cuddly.

But seriously, the Middle East especially,and Muslims generally, have not been able to produce one thing of value that the world couldn't live without in 300 years. All they have done in 300 years is basically get in the way and piss the rest of the world off.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 05, 2014, 03:50:05 PM
So, answer me a simple question: in the last 300 years, what, other than oil and thoroughbred horses, of value has the Muslim World managed to produce? Ok, I'll grant, Persian rugs, and Persian kitties are nice. The last are nice and cuddly.

But seriously, the Middle East especially,and Muslims generally, have not been able to produce one thing of value that the world couldn't live without in 300 years. All they have done in 300 years is basically get in the way and piss the rest of the world off.

Naguib Mahfouz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naguib_Mahfouz)

Also, why do you have to make a contribution to the world at large to be considered educational?  Productivity is not the only index to measure education by.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 05, 2014, 04:17:13 PM
Part of the 1% I've already accounted for, thank you.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 05, 2014, 04:29:51 PM
Part of the 1% I've already accounted for, thank you.

Don't move the goalposts.  You asked:

So, answer me a simple question: in the last 300 years, what, other than oil and thoroughbred horses, of value has the Muslim World managed to produce?

So you were wrong.  Moving on.

By the way, do you hold the same contempt for developing countries that you hold for Islamic countries?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 05, 2014, 04:48:19 PM
I just looked at the list of Jew Nobel pre winners and why they won.

Its not exactly unique research.  Hell, most of Jews win in Economics.
So.... Yeah.

Also, Muslims have won a few peace prizes, like for brokering peace between Egypt and Israel.
Weird, a Muslim who didn't want to wipe out Israel and Jews.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 05, 2014, 06:04:17 PM
Like I said, I already accounted for the 1% who DO receive Nobel Prizes, so that does not figure into the argument. As far as developing states, no, not generally. And its pretty bad when you have so many Muslims who want to kill Jews and wipe out Israel that the rare one who doesn't has to be given a Nobel fucking Peace Prize.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on September 05, 2014, 06:12:13 PM
And its pretty bad when you have so many Muslims who want to kill Jews and wipe out Israel that the rare one who doesn't has to be given a Nobel fucking Peace Prize.

The Muslim wasn't given the prize for not wanting to kill Jews, though.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 05, 2014, 06:14:15 PM
Well yes, Anwar Sadat was, and so was Yassir Arafat, but that is beside the point.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 05, 2014, 06:40:45 PM
The reverse is exactly why the three Israeli Peace Prize winners won the award.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 05, 2014, 07:18:48 PM
Well, yes, that is to be expected. And look where it got any of the five. NOWHERE. The only peace that will ever exist between Israel and its neighbours is the one where Israel says, "Don't fuck with me, because if you do, I will blow your ass to smithereens, so just say thank you for my civilisation and move along."
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on September 05, 2014, 08:01:40 PM
So, answer me a simple question: in the last 300 years, what, other than oil and thoroughbred horses, of value has the Muslim World managed to produce? Ok, I'll grant, Persian rugs, and Persian kitties are nice. The last are nice and cuddly.

But seriously, the Middle East especially,and Muslims generally, have not been able to produce one thing of value that the world couldn't live without in 300 years. All they have done in 300 years is basically get in the way and piss the rest of the world off.
Islam pretty much brought Europe out of the dark ages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_contributions_to_Medieval_Europe
You're welcome.
Title: Re: Ask a Zionist anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on September 05, 2014, 09:06:03 PM
Can a mod please change the title to "Ask a Zionist anything"
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Shane on September 05, 2014, 09:29:20 PM
So, answer me a simple question: in the last 300 years, what, other than oil and thoroughbred horses, of value has the Muslim World managed to produce? Ok, I'll grant, Persian rugs, and Persian kitties are nice. The last are nice and cuddly.

But seriously, the Middle East especially,and Muslims generally, have not been able to produce one thing of value that the world couldn't live without in 300 years. All they have done in 300 years is basically get in the way and piss the rest of the world off.
Islam pretty much brought Europe out of the dark ages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_contributions_to_Medieval_Europe
You're welcome.

literally 300 years ago
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on September 05, 2014, 09:41:14 PM
What is the "Muslim World"? For comparison, what has the Jewish World produced?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on September 05, 2014, 11:00:44 PM
What is the "Muslim World"? For comparison, what has the Jewish World produced?

(http://www.jacquelinejules.com/images/hanukkah/Dreidel.jpg)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 05, 2014, 11:42:44 PM
What is the "Muslim World"? For comparison, what has the Jewish World produced?

(http://www.jacquelinejules.com/images/hanukkah/Dreidel.jpg)

(http://www.hoffmans.com/v/vspfiles/photos/11216-2T.jpg)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on September 05, 2014, 11:43:40 PM
What is the "Muslim World"? For comparison, what has the Jewish World produced?

(http://www.jacquelinejules.com/images/hanukkah/Dreidel.jpg)

(http://www.hoffmans.com/v/vspfiles/photos/11216-2T.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/rjLq6VW.jpg)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 06, 2014, 02:25:39 AM
I said the last 300 years, not the last 1000. No one, not even me, disputes that Islam at one time had some level of relevance in the  world. We probably could have done without it, but admittedly, it would have taken longer for us to achieve the things we did. I never argued that.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on September 06, 2014, 03:21:30 AM
When I said the world needs no single group of people to continue, I was talking about today, not as if Jews never existed.  One could make an argument that without religion we would be a more peaceful species, see Jews and Muslims blowing each other up for an example.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 06, 2014, 03:32:56 AM
Well, lets see, as I said, the Jews gave us the Old Testament, the Polio vaccine, 22% of all the Nobel Prizes (which isn't bad, since they make up .02% of the population of the world), etc. Most of what Gentiles watch on TV and in the cinema was created by Jews (Seinfeld, anyone?, Star Trek [both Shatner and Nimoy are Jews], and God knows what else, much of which is good, and much of which admittedly isn't),  pretty much the entire psychiatric profession, and quite a few other things. The banking system, oddly enough, was NOT. Although Jews are widely seen as money lenders, that was a profession forced on them by Christians, who made it illegal for Jews to work in any others when dealing with non-Jews. Jews could only buy, sell, and repair appliances and the like, and lend money. After 500 years of it, they did get good at it. There are, of course, well known Jewish bankers, and Jewish financiers. That does come from this. However, MOST of the banking system in the USA is in Gentile hands, despite what misguided persons want to believe.

What is the Muslim World. It is that part of the Word that is predominantly Muslim. That should NOT be too hard to figure out. The Jewish World doesn't exist except for Israel, which is the only majority Jewish nation IN the world. The Christian world, also called the Western World, is obvious as well.

Duck, you can make that argument all you want, until the entire human race has been fed to the dogs. The fact is that if humans didn't fight about religion, they would fight about something else. In fact, Jews and Muslims are not, and NEVER have, fought about religion, really. Its mostly about money, power, and pussy. These are the three things men (as in males of the species) want more than anything else. They may use religion as a motive force to get them, but that is what they want. Religion is a cover. Or Nationalism. Or Capitalism. Or Communism. Or Whateverism. In fact, Judaism is one of the few religions that tries to tame the inherant desire for all three. I don't have the time to get into it here, but Judaism tries through its Mitzvot to tame men's (and women's) lusts for things such as money, power, and pussy through disciplinary methods that are far more efficient than any other religion I've ever studied, and I can fairly say I've studied just about all the major ones. You and I can have that conversation if you like, but NOT here. Send me a private message if you so desire. I am not about to get into that in a public forum.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 06, 2014, 05:00:13 AM
Apparently it cannot blunt their desire for bloodshed.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 06, 2014, 05:20:02 AM
RAMA, that was just a stupid response. No one desires bloodshed. But Jews do desire to keep their own blood from being shed. And lets face it: If the choice comes down to dying for your country or making the other poor bastard die for his (non)country (in the case of the "Palestinians"),  any sane person will choose the latter. And we've already discussed the need to fight a conventional war, rather than try to send in the Mossad to take out 10 rocket launchers that can be replaced in 15 minutes. So don't go there.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on September 06, 2014, 11:32:14 AM
Yaakov, would it be safe to say that you've never been a member of anyone's military?  If so, then that would explain an awful lot.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on September 06, 2014, 12:27:15 PM
How much must a jew jew in order to jew jew jew?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 06, 2014, 01:14:09 PM
MARK, I don't know how that is relevant. I do understand human psychology whether I have or have not been in a military force. I agree that it is not easy to find someone who is willing to shoot another person in the head. On the other hand, it isn't hard, either. It just is. I'm not going to answer the question, because I don't think it needs answering. I may have been, I may not have been. It doesn't change the fundamentals of my thinking.

BEARDO, any more of that shit, and I report it to the moderators. I can handle a lot, but outright anti-semitic shit you can keep to your own f-----g self.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on September 06, 2014, 01:47:16 PM
Are all jews completely devoid of a sense of humour, or is it just you?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lemon on September 06, 2014, 02:09:59 PM
Do you consider Jew converts to be real Jews?

How do you feel about Noahides?

Thought I might as well as you these questions.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 06, 2014, 03:30:15 PM
MARK, I don't know how that is relevant. I do understand human psychology whether I have or have not been in a military force. I agree that it is not easy to find someone who is willing to shoot another person in the head. On the other hand, it isn't hard, either. It just is. I'm not going to answer the question, because I don't think it needs answering. I may have been, I may not have been. It doesn't change the fundamentals of my thinking.

You obviously did not serve, at least in wartime, because everyone I know who has have been profoundly changed by the experience.

Quote
BEARDO, any more of that shit, and I report it to the moderators. I can handle a lot, but outright anti-semitic shit you can keep to your own f-----g self.

That was not anti anything, it was absurd. Relax man.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on September 06, 2014, 04:02:48 PM
BEARDO, any more of that shit, and I report it to the moderators. I can handle a lot, but outright anti-semitic shit you can keep to your own f-----g self.

Anti-semitism is not against the rules.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on September 06, 2014, 04:46:28 PM
VAUXHALL, of course dinosaurs existed. The story of Creation, while accurate in its own way, was NOT intended to be scientific. The first 11 chapters of Genesis (at least in my opinion, and in the opinion of many scholarly persons, both Jewish and Christian) can be taken as Pre-history, legendary material. Although some of it may be literally true, a lot of it is clearly legendary material that is similar to other stuff you find in narrative stories throughout the Middle East.

I know the Rabbis of Blessed Memory had a way to adjust for the existence of dinosaurs, but I'd have to look it up to find out what it was, and those books are still packed. However, there WAS an explanation given to explain how the dinosaurs did indeed exist before Adam and Eve existed. I'll see what I can find. I am feeling better, but now my wife is ill, and I must tend to her, and continue to care for my own self to make sure we both get totally well. But in between that, I will TRY to learn more about the matter.

And again, I don't know WHY God does or does NOT appear to non-Jews. I do have an idea why he no longer appears to us, as I explained. And who knows, maybe, just maybe, he will deem it appropriate to return the prophecy to Israel.

There is certainty that at some time in the future, things WILL happen that involve Israel and the Jews. The return of the Jews to Israel, the Coming of Messiah (no, not Jesus, or any other god), the rebuilding of the Temple, the Battle of Armageddon, the bringing about of World Peace, etc, all have been foretold in our Scriptures. It WILL happen. Its merely a question of when.

So in that sense, you can say that the prophecy WILL return to Israel. Its just a matter of when.

Are you saying that humans existed before dinos? That's a pretty ground breaking discovery, if true. However, there is no evidence to suggest that humans predate dinosaurs, or that humans and dinosaurs lived together. I would like to see this dinosaur explanation that the Rabbis of Blessed Memory provide, so if you can find it that would be great.

Also, the Old Testament predicts the coming of a Messiah... yet you don't think it's Jesus. Why not? It seems like Jesus fits the description you've provided pretty well.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 06, 2014, 06:59:29 PM
QUOTE: "Do you consider Jew converts to be real Jews? How do you feel about Noahides? Thought I might as well as you these questions."

LEMON, of course converts are real Jews! David's grandmother Ruth was a convert. A convert is to be treated as no different than any other Jew. A Jew by Choice in many ways is more courageous than a Jew by Birth. Noahides are certainly admirable persons. They are not Jews, as they have never sought to be. They worship in Synagogues, but they are welcome to have a ham sandwich afterword for lunch. Jewish Law ONLY applies to Jews. It does not apply to non-Jews, even Righteous Ones, such as Noahides, or other Righteous Among the Nations.


QUOTE: "Are you saying that humans existed before dinos? That's a pretty ground breaking discovery, if true. However, there is no evidence to suggest that humans predate dinosaurs, or that humans and dinosaurs lived together. I would like to see this dinosaur explanation that the Rabbis of Blessed Memory provide, so if you can find it that would be great.

Also, the Old Testament predicts the coming of a Messiah... yet you don't think it's Jesus. Why not? It seems like Jesus fits the description you've provided pretty well."

I would suggest to you that anyone who believes that humans predated dinosaurs, or even co-existed with them, should probably take a Seventh Grade Science course. If their belief persists thereafter, then they should probably seek an appointment with a psychiatrist.

The first 11 chapters of Genesis are NOT a science book. They seek to explain through story and imagery how humans came to be and how we came to understand God. Most of those chapters, while POSSIBLY having a grain of truth in them (like the Flood, which has similar stories throughout the world, and can therefore be taken as possibly true) are intended to tell a story,

I have heard other arguments, of course. One argument goes that the "days of Creation" were not literal 24 hour days but could have been eons of time. Thus, each "day" could account for whole ages of existence, in which the animal kingdoms had their lives and deaths, starting with primordial ooze, moving through the waters, then the amphibian types, then the reptiles, including dinosaurs, then the mammals, then us (the highest form of mammal). Its a possibility.

I don't claim to know all the answers. If I knew all that, I would be God, which I most manifestly am not! I'll see what I can find on the Rabbis, but it may take some time, as I am still unpacking.

Regarding the Messiah, actually, Jesus doesn't fit the definition at all. The Messiah shall come, born of two human parents (not a virgin birth to a mother and God). He shall be a descendant of King David (which Jesus likely was, I'll grant, but ascent to the Throne of David goes through the father's line, NOT the mother's, so if Jesus had no human father, then he cannot ascend the Throne of David, and adoption does not count according to Jewish Law). He shall bring about world peace (which Jesus did not do). He shall either rebuild the Temple, or dedicate a newly built one (the Temple was destroyed after his death). He shall re-establish the Davidic Kingdom of Israel (in 70 CE, the Romans defeated the Jews in the last of the Roman-Jewish Wars and exiled most but not all of them from the Land) and restore all Jews to the Land (see above). I could go on, but I think I've made my point.


Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 06, 2014, 08:16:40 PM
As I said, the world needs Jews just to have a convenient whipping boy, if nothing else. But I'll give you one thing that ALL of Western Civilisation depends upon. Hell, for that matter, so do the Muslims, even if they hate to admit it. Without it, none of you would be where you are today. So, let me grant that you could invent everything you have without our help (which I doubt, but for the sake of argument, fine). There is one thing you could not have created. The Jewish Bible (the Old Testament to you Christian influenced types). Without that, your entire worldview falls apart.

Without the Hebrew Bible, you would only have Greek philosophy, which in and of itself is not enough to keep a civilisation of any sort afloat long term. The fact is, they denigrated women and promoted homosexuality as ideal. That alone was a fatal fault that would have (eventually) destroyed their way of life. The Greeks were fine philosophers, and great artists, and so-forth, but their morality was in the toilet.

The pagan Germanics and Norse could not have welded themselves into a unified force without the fiction of "the Holy Roman Nation" and all that, which harks back to Roman Empire, which itself was Christianised, which religion came from guess what, Judaism!

Fundamentally, without Judaism as a motive force, Western Civilisation (and the Muslims as well, but that is a different conversation) breaks down. This is a fact that simply cannot be denied. Welcome to real life.

Sorry, but did you just admit that Jews are responsible for a good portion of the horrible things in the world?  Including the very Muslims that hate them?

Also:
1,000 years seems to be a pretty good time for a civilization.

And the Roman Empire was doing pretty good without Christianity.  In fact, Christianity of the Roman Empire accounts for the destruction of multiple cultures and some very unpleasant things being done to people.

Finally:
My world view operates just fine without the Jewish Bible or Christian values.  In fact, most civilizations went along just fine without Christianity, Jeudaism, or Islam.  They fell apart when the gold seeking conqueror of Christianity (thanks Jews) wiped them off the map.

I mean, you call upon the Greeks as morally terrible but your only evidence seems to be their acceptance of homosexuality.  I personally consider a religion that gains political power and uses that power to get money for the sake of greed, torture people for the sake of power, and conquer of less technologically developed cultures for the sake of both.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 06, 2014, 11:05:16 PM
I would suggest to you that the Arabs do not hate the Jews because the Arabs are Muslim and we are religiously otherwise. I would suggest that that hatred goes back to Abraham's two sons, Isaac (the Son of the Promise, and father of the Jewish People), and Ishmael (the father of the Arab People). THAT is how far back you need to look, NOT to Mohammed.

And I never said I hated Christianity. Sure, it was pretty brutal to us, but it has since grown out of most of that crap. EVERYBODY has been brutal to us at one point or other, whether they descended from us religiously or not. The Greeks were, the Romans were, the Muslims were and are, The Christians were, and rarely still are, I could go on...

About Islam. It is descended spiritually from Judaism if you read the Qur'an. You can tell that the book is a rip-off of the the Old and New Testaments, as well as apocryphal beliefs coming from both Jewish and Christian traditions. Mohammed was and was not an idiot. he incorporated a lot of raw material into the Qur'an, but got a lot of the beliefs wrong in the process. For example, his concept of the Christian Trinity is totally nonsense. I remember that when I read it, vs how it is actually taught in the Church of England, I couldn't believe it was the same idea. I don't agree with the Trinitarian belief, of course, but if you are going to reject a belief, at LEAST get what your rejecting right for heaven's sake!

As far as conquering people for the sake of power, and the like, I agree, Christianity did that. But so did Alexander the Great. He was culturally Greek. It was under his successors that one of the three began to persecute us, ultimately bringing about the Maccabees and their rebellion, and the story of Hanukah. So don't tell me the Greeks couldn't do it. They could and did. And probably would have continued if they had not been stopped by us, and by later forces putting their empire to an end (ie, the Romans, and so-forth).

Lets face it, man. Men (as in males) want three things: money, power, and pussy.They will use whatever they have as an excuse to get those three things, whether its Nationalism, Capitalism, Communism, Religion (be it Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or etc), or Whateverism. In fact, Judaism is the one religion out of all the ones I've studied (and I've studied most of the major world religions in pretty thorough detail), that does a fairly good job of instilling a control over the desire for these three things (money, power, and pussy) by disciplinary techniques that doesn't take away one's proper use of them, but does discourage their IMPROPER use. Other religions don't seem to do as well regulating that, in my mind. They either allow libertinism or encourage total repression of the urges.

So, no, I don't think Judaism created the things I hate. Judaism had it right. Things that came out of Judaism would have been fine if they had maintained the broadness of mind that the Rabbis of Blessed Memory always had in understanding humans and the world around us. With Jews, you get the real deal. We don't play. Christianity is like margarine vs real butter, and Islam barely even counts as religion, in my mind. But take this info and do what you like.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 07, 2014, 01:12:18 AM
I will take this information and choose to strongly dislike Jews.  I will only like those Jews who I get to know and like on a personal level, but until then, I dislike all Jews.

You have made one more enemy today.  Congrats.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on September 07, 2014, 01:12:47 AM
I will take this information and choose to strongly dislike Jews.  I will only like those Jews who I get to know and like on a personal level, but until then, I dislike all Jews.

You have made one more enemy today.  Congrats.


omg literally anti-semitism
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on September 07, 2014, 01:30:04 AM
Yaakov, what is your opinion on the mentally handicapped? Are they favored by God? Do they get into heaven? Or do you think they should be euthanized humanely?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 07, 2014, 01:58:47 AM
LORD DAVE, I would recommend growing up, and acting like an adult. So, one more enemy. Take a number, get in line, asshole.

The mentally handicapped have a share in the World to Come (Paradise). Their condition is certainly NOT their fault, and they should be cared for humanely. Their human rights do not end just because they have mental issues.

I don't know what "favoured of God" would mean, exactly. How does being mentally damaged in some way make you favoured or NOT favoured of God? For whatever reason that we don't understand, God makes certain people with what we as humans perceive to be as weaknesses. Are they weaknesses? I don't know. Maybe the boy with Autism can show me something special about his specialty of trains that I would never have known before. Maybe the girl with Down's can make me stop and look at a flower differently than I might have otherwise.

We talk about people Learned in Torah as favoured of God. Are they? Or did they just set their mind to doing a thing and get darn good at it? What about someone who is good in his or her profession? Or a good father or mother? And so-forth.

All these things make you "favoured of God". Why? Because all humans are favoured of God, until they create odious philosophical concepts or religions that make them NOT favoured of God. When people start blowing shit up, cutting off heads, and doing other horrible things of that nature, then they must be fought, so that not all hope is lost from the world.

Yes, I speak of Muslims. But they are NOT born as bad people any more than you and I are. It is their odious belief structure that turns into that kind of thing.

Back to the mentally handicapped. Good God, why would I want to kill them? That's insane! Respect for all life forbids that! The only reason I want to take out Muslims is so they don't take me out first. If they turn peaceful toward me, I will deal them peace in return. It IS that simple.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on September 07, 2014, 02:10:18 AM
I am glad you don't agree with killing the mentally handicapped. Many cultures have killed slow people at birth or during adolescence because they were viewed as evil or vile in some way. It is good to know that my man YHWH smiles upon them because I have several in my family.

One thing I don't understand though. You say that "everyone is favored by God until they start killing people and blowing things up", which you attribute to Muslim extremist ideology. However, you are on record all over this forum supporting the murder of these people and even innocents who are caught in the crossfire. From what you have said it seems like you, Yaakov, would not be favored by God.

Is God OK with killing people who kill people? OR is this just a huge double-standard?

If God is OK with killing people who kill people: Shouldn't these killers of killers be killing themselves?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 07, 2014, 02:18:27 AM
LORD DAVE, I would recommend growing up, and acting like an adult. So, one more enemy. Take a number, get in line, asshole.

Are you suggesting that Adults don't hate others based on the opinions expressed by someone claiming to represent the group in some fashion?  Because I got some horrible news for you if that's the case...
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 07, 2014, 02:25:33 AM
BLANKO, I am inclined to agree that it IS literal anti-Semitism. The only reason I choose not to report it to Moderators is that I don't want the moderators to know my e-mail address at present. I know the Administrators have it. But the Moderators only get it apparently when you submit a Moderation Report request. Because I like to tread rather lightly on the "Net" I'll avoid sending him to Mods.

Besides, I've had far more important people hate me in the world either because I'm a Jew OR for personal reasons. So, LORD DAVE,  I tell you what. Why don't you bend over and crack a smile for us, asswipe. Just because you've got shit for brains doesn't mean the rest of us are in that boat.

Actually, as pointed out, VAUXHALL, in one other thread, I tend to keep myself limited to one or two threads, since I know my views are pretty hard-core.

I think the Bible (as in the Jewish Bible) is pretty clear that it permits execution for murder. If someone murders another person without cause, the community of Israel was duty bound to take that person's life.

Remember, VAUXHALL. whether you care to admit it or not, ISIS, Al Quaeda, Al Shabaab, Boko Haram, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc, have told us that they are at war with us. They deserve credit for one thing. The bastards are honest. They've never lied to us or anyone else about how they feel. They WANT to destroy Western Civilisation. In the words of a recent ISIS defector. "First they will make a Caliphate of the Arab World. Then they will go after other countries."

When someone does you the favour of TELLING you that he doesn't fucking like you, that he intends to convert you, force you to live as a second-class citizen and pay a tax, or kill you, and when he informs you that he is GOING to take over your shit no matter what he has to do to achieve that, it is best that you take him seriously. And I mean, VERY seriously.

Under those circumstances, the enemy is being bluntly straightforward and honest. It is best we do so as well. The ONLY way to deal with that kind of honesty is honesty of our own. Namely, the kind that says, "Ah, no. You are not taking over my shit, I am not converting, paying a Jizya tax, or being killed. And I will kill you to prevent those things from happening." They want to be Shahids (Martyrs)? Good. Then lets make them such.

I choose to live by the principle that says the following: rather than dying for my country or ideals or whatever, I should prefer to make the other poor bastard die for his.

The Torah, and the entire Jewish Bible, takes account for punishing murder, and also for defending the House of Israel in war. And yes, Jews everywhere are, or should be, at war with ISIS and EVERYTHING they represent. And guess what: Picking up a fucking weapon, and being prepared to use it, may become necessary to defend yourself and all you hold dear whether you are a Jew, a Christian, an Israeli, or an American. These ISIS bastards want all of us paying Jizya, converted, or dead. I choose none of the three.

Actually, no, DAVE. I'm merely suggesting that your a pompous, blowhard, asshole. Get over yourself.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on September 07, 2014, 05:24:46 AM
I don't hate you Yaakov. I was just messing around. Calm down.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 07, 2014, 12:49:44 PM
BEARDO, relax. I overreacted. You're cool.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on September 07, 2014, 01:15:58 PM
BLANKO, I am inclined to agree that it IS literal anti-Semitism. The only reason I choose not to report it to Moderators is that I don't want the moderators to know my e-mail address at present. I know the Administrators have it. But the Moderators only get it apparently when you submit a Moderation Report request. Because I like to tread rather lightly on the "Net" I'll avoid sending him to Mods.

I don't know where you got that idea. Moderators do see your email.

Also, again, no action will be taken against anti-semitism unless it's a targeted insult or deliberately off-topic. If we had a policy of punishing people for disdain against specific ethnicities, then you would have been banned several times over, you can be sure of that.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 07, 2014, 01:37:42 PM
BLANKO, you might have a point on that last. I thought only admins had my e-mail. Oh, well. Doesn't matter. I still don't feel the need to report him. He's an ass. I deal with them regularly.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on September 07, 2014, 02:11:07 PM
I would suggest to you that the Arabs do not hate the Jews because the Arabs are Muslim and we are religiously otherwise. I would suggest that that hatred goes back to Abraham's two sons, Isaac (the Son of the Promise, and father of the Jewish People), and Ishmael (the father of the Arab People). THAT is how far back you need to look, NOT to Mohammed.

And this is why religion poisons everyithing.

Someone wrote a storybook once, in which they simplistically claimed one group of people are decended from one person and another group of people are descended from another. The odds alone for this to be true are staggeringly improbable.

There is no evidential basis for your story book. You'll get along with people a lot more, and your life will be easier, if you don't cling to its idiotic, medieval and feudal notions of tribal hatred.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 07, 2014, 03:02:40 PM
Yaakov, you've insulted me, other members, arabs, muslims, and most of the people on the planet multiple times.  You have implied that most jews believe as you do: that the jewish people are superior.  You call anyone who challenges the cultural, intellectual, and moral superiority of the Jew, "children".   

You think anyone who dislikes jews is either anti-semite or barbarians.

If this kind of behavior is what it means to be an adult, then call me Huck Finn.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on September 07, 2014, 03:16:28 PM
But Dave! The Jews are Gods chosen! Of course they are superior!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 07, 2014, 03:54:35 PM
And I would suggest, FAPP, that you have a personal problem. The Bible (The Jewish Bible) has continued to be proven correct on everything it has talked about. Archaeology has indicated so far that as far back as we can go, the Bible has been accurate. I have no doubt that Abraham will be proven as well when archaeology has gone back far enough to do it.

Since Israelite Faith dates BACK to Abraham himself, it is rather difficult to argue that he never existed. If he never had existed, where would Hebrew Faith have come from? He WAS the first Hebrew! It should be noted that Judaism is not just a religion. It is a civilisation. Religion may be its most important element, but that is NOT all there is to it. And it never would have existed if it had not for Abraham following his God's command to leave his home in Ur and make for Canaan.

Judaism has been around for 4500 years. Abraham was around 4500 years ago. What else could it have been?

QUOTE: "Yaakov, you've insulted me, other members, arabs, muslims, and most of the people on the planet multiple times.  You have implied that most jews believe as you do: that the jewish people are superior.  You call anyone who challenges the cultural, intellectual, and moral superiority of the Jew, "children".   

You think anyone who dislikes jews is either anti-semite or barbarians."

Actually, I grant I've insulted Muslims and Arabs. I have NOT insulted others on the planet. I have NOT implied anything about what other Jews think or do not think. I have insulted you, because I do think you are an idiot, yes. Other members in some cases, yes, in other cases no. Yes, anybody who dislikes Jews is by definition an anti-Semite and yes, a barbarian. what else would you call them? If I hated Black people (I don't) I would be called racist. What other word would there be for it? And yes, I do perceive my own culture as somewhat superior to others, but that is natural. Any person who DOESN"T see their own culture as superior to others is going to commit cultural suicide. That is a case of Felony Stupid.

So, for the record. I don't like Arabs, or Muslims generally. I do think Lord Dave is a fucktard. Anyone who dislikes Jews IS an anti-Semite, just as anyone who disliked Blacks would be a racist. And any rational human should prefer his own culture to that of another. To further clarify, I am an English Jew. I prefer the English and Jewish civilisations as the most civilised as of the world.

I know, I know, that is going to sound not Politically Correct. Well, tough shit. Wake up, my friends. Political Correctness is NOT one of my strong points.




Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 07, 2014, 05:38:44 PM
Why would Abraham have to exist for Judaism to exist?  People make up fictions to suit their needs all the time.

How far back has archaeology in Israel gone?  I mean there is still no archaeological proof for the Temple of Solomon which was supposedly destroyed in 537BC.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 07, 2014, 06:37:09 PM
Actually that would be 587-586 BCE. And the only reason that that subject hasn't been looked into more closely is because of the, yes, you guessed it, Muslims, whose Dome of the Rock currently defaces Temple Mount. It should be removed piece by piece so as not to damage the grounds beneath it and restored in Mecca or Medina. Refusal for this offer means it should be removed piece by piece and then blown up.

There is some evidence for the Exodus, albeit not in the numbers the Bible uses, which may be taken as symbolic. THAT is how far back it goes.

As far as the Temple goes, they were doing research recently, looking for the Ark of the Covenant, trying to find it, and were coming very close to finding it, when they had to stop because the so-called "Palestinians" began to riot. IF they were to find the Ark, that would prove that we had rights to the Temple Mount. Instead of simply shooting the rioters (the best option in my opinion), they found it PC to stop research. The reason I say "coming very close" is because they had reached a door beyond which the evidence in the Bible, if I am not mistaken (and I might be; I might be referring to some other source) indicated the Ark would be.

As for Abraham, you do make a good argument. However, Jews and Arabs are clearly related to each other. They are both Semitic, and share certain things in their common descent that neither of them shares with non-Jews/non-Arabs. I may not like the Arab, but he is unfortunately a half-brother. I'm guessing he got his savagery from his Egyptian slave side.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 07, 2014, 07:06:59 PM
Actually that would be 587-586 BCE. And the only reason that that subject hasn't been looked into more closely is because of the, yes, you guessed it, Muslims, whose Dome of the Rock currently defaces Temple Mount. It should be removed piece by piece so as not to damage the grounds beneath it and restored in Mecca or Medina. Refusal for this offer means it should be removed piece by piece and then blown up.

There is some evidence for the Exodus, albeit not in the numbers the Bible uses, which may be taken as symbolic. THAT is how far back it goes.

As far as the Temple goes, they were doing research recently, looking for the Ark of the Covenant, trying to find it, and were coming very close to finding it, when they had to stop because the so-called "Palestinians" began to riot. IF they were to find the Ark, that would prove that we had rights to the Temple Mount. Instead of simply shooting the rioters (the best option in my opinion), they found it PC to stop research. The reason I say "coming very close" is because they had reached a door beyond which the evidence in the Bible, if I am not mistaken (and I might be; I might be referring to some other source) indicated the Ark would be.

As for Abraham, you do make a good argument. However, Jews and Arabs are clearly related to each other. They are both Semitic, and share certain things in their common descent that neither of them shares with non-Jews/non-Arabs. I may not like the Arab, but he is unfortunately a half-brother. I'm guessing he got his savagery from his Egyptian slave side.

If they found the Ark, wouldn't they have to demonstrate its supernatural powers before you could make any claims about it proving the Bible? Otherwise it would just be an old fancy chest that legends were written about.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: canofpepsi on September 07, 2014, 07:09:25 PM
If they found the Ark, wouldn't they have to demonstrate its supernatural powers before you could make any claims about it proving the Bible? Otherwise it would just be an old fancy chest that legends were written about.
the bible proves the bible, we need nothing more
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 07, 2014, 07:44:31 PM
Actually, I agree with Tausami. And I think that's what A LOT of people are VERY afraid of. And I don't know that I can accept the idea that the Bible proves the Bible. That sounds like awfully circular logic to me. I mean, I agree, often-times there are things in the text historically that do verify things that were reported earlier. But you HAVE to have external witnesses also. You can't just have a closed circuit there. That's like North Korea only allowing its people to use in-country intranet, rather than internet. They end up not knowing anything about what's going on in the world, or even in their own country.

If the Bible cannot stand up to external view, what is its value? Any decent Bible timeline will show both Biblical events and secular events drawn from history. Archaeology will prove the Bible right, eventually, though it may take a long time to get there. CANOFPEPSI, faith is a good thing, and I admire it, but blind, dumb faith is a bad idea for anybody, Jewish or otherwise. We have to let secular wisdom inform our faith, or we are fools.

So, there you are. I'm not advocating a complete secularisation of holy things. That would be absurd. As an example, I do not agree with 95% of the so-called 'modern biblical scholarship" of the last 120 years or so. But some limited application of both Literary and Historical Criticism to the Bible is NOT a bad thing! Granted, that can be overdone.

Liberation theology and the Fundamental Option for the Poor is relevant, although it too, can be turned into something a bit to radical. But fundamentally, religion of any sort has to open itself to criticism of its own behaviour, and criticism of its own holy texts. To do otherwise is to negate its own purpose in the world of ideas.

A lot of people in this thread have taken a dislike to me. That's fine. I can live with that. I have very strong views, and I believe they are correct ones. But not everyone in Judaism agrees with me. In fact, the majority probably do not, at least not with the stridency that I hold them. And many would adamantly disagree.

But, the purpose of this thread is NOT so you like me. The purpose of the thread is to debate and come away more knowledgeable. I have given you my own personal opinions on all kinds of shite. If anyone has questions generally for Judaism as a whole, I shall try to answer them, irrespective of my personal beliefs. But note that my beliefs are PART of what make up Judaism. I am on the right wing, granted. And there are some on the radical left wing of Judaism. That's ok. I don't judge them for how they choose to be Jewish, as long as they afford me the same courtesy. Most people fall into the vast middle.

And you will find that, aside from the conflicts in the Middle East, I am generally a fairly rational human being. I have ALWAYS admitted here and elsewhere that this IS NOT a subject  that I can discuss rationally, just because I get so infuriated by it. Pick any other topic, and we can have a constructive conversation. But this one... well, that's harder.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 07, 2014, 07:47:47 PM
Actually that would be 587-586 BCE. And the only reason that that subject hasn't been looked into more closely is because of the, yes, you guessed it, Muslims, whose Dome of the Rock currently defaces Temple Mount. It should be removed piece by piece so as not to damage the grounds beneath it and restored in Mecca or Medina. Refusal for this offer means it should be removed piece by piece and then blown up.

There is some evidence for the Exodus, albeit not in the numbers the Bible uses, which may be taken as symbolic. THAT is how far back it goes.

As far as the Temple goes, they were doing research recently, looking for the Ark of the Covenant, trying to find it, and were coming very close to finding it, when they had to stop because the so-called "Palestinians" began to riot. IF they were to find the Ark, that would prove that we had rights to the Temple Mount. Instead of simply shooting the rioters (the best option in my opinion), they found it PC to stop research. The reason I say "coming very close" is because they had reached a door beyond which the evidence in the Bible, if I am not mistaken (and I might be; I might be referring to some other source) indicated the Ark would be.

As for Abraham, you do make a good argument. However, Jews and Arabs are clearly related to each other. They are both Semitic, and share certain things in their common descent that neither of them shares with non-Jews/non-Arabs. I may not like the Arab, but he is unfortunately a half-brother. I'm guessing he got his savagery from his Egyptian slave side.

They are related to each other because they are from the same piece of land not necessarily because there were two brothers named in the bible. This is the problem with cherry-picking bible passages to be historical without outside support. You are assuming on no evidence that the life of Abraham is historical and not metaphorical. Why?  The only reason I can see is because you need it to support your supposedly privileged place in God's order. No covenant and the Jews are nothing more than a small tribe of particularly war-loving people who worshipped an obscure thunder god which the Roman's brought to prominence.

If you were rational, this would be your default position until there is evidence to show Abraham actually existed. 

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 07, 2014, 08:09:36 PM
Again, your argument is well turned. But there IS a Covenant, and has been one for 4500 years. As long as there have been Jews, there has been a Covenant. Go back to any point in the entire history of the Jewish People. You will find a Covenant People. Until such time in the historical timeline as we don't exist (ie, before our existence), there was a People, the Jews, who embodied the Covenantal ideal. I am not going to convince you. And that is fine. I don't have to. This is what I believe. You can choose to disagree with it. But it is rational based on my understanding of history. As long as Jews have been Jews (and before that Israelites, and before that Hebrews), there has been a Covenant. That Covenant had to start somewhere. And Hebrews began to exist with Abraham. Archaeology will one day prove me right. Until then, I am not going to lose any beauty sleep about it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on September 07, 2014, 08:58:57 PM
And I would suggest, FAPP, that you have a personal problem. The Bible (The Jewish Bible) has continued to be proven correct on everything it has talked about.

You have got to be shitting me. This is the moment when we all realise we're not engaged in conversation with a rational person.

Anyway...

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Scientific_errors_in_the_Bible (cool segway back to this site btw)
http://biblebabble.curbjaw.com/errors.htm
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/science/long.html

The Bible was written by people that pretty much shat themselves every night in fear that the sun might never come back. You need to understand and accept this fact.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 07, 2014, 09:11:22 PM
I NEVER suggested that the Bible was a science book! I don't know WHERE you got that idea. Using the Bible to explain Creation, or anything like that, is absurd. The first 11 chapters of Genesis are legendary material. Anyone knows that. Nor do I think God was being a biology teacher when he told us what to eat! Again, telling us the Earth is flat is nothing beyond explaining what we are looking at. God is not trying to prove any lesson there. A bat is not a bird. So what? It looked like a bird to the Hebrews when it was in the air. Why tell them it was a rodent and confuse them as to what they should be eating or not?

I was referring to historical events, you idiot, not science. The fact that Jews were enslaved in Egypt, and left. The fact that they entered Canaan by means both military and peaceful. The whole timeline on that sort of thing. If God had wanted to teach us science he'd have dropped my Seventh Grade Science Teacher Mr. Dart down there, not the Bible! God, you really are a dumbshit!

And no, the people that did write the Bible were not so stupid as to believe that the sun wouldn't come back. How stupid can you be, you dipshit? They already knew it would. They, and their ancestors had lived on the planet long enough to invent the written word, which takes awhile. Just because you aren't that bright doesn't give you the right to insult the rest of us with your idiocy.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 07, 2014, 09:18:48 PM
Again, your argument is well turned. But there IS a Covenant, and has been one for 4500 years. As long as there have been Jews, there has been a Covenant. Go back to any point in the entire history of the Jewish People. You will find a Covenant People. Until such time in the historical timeline as we don't exist (ie, before our existence), there was a People, the Jews, who embodied the Covenantal ideal. I am not going to convince you. And that is fine. I don't have to. This is what I believe. You can choose to disagree with it. But it is rational based on my understanding of history. As long as Jews have been Jews (and before that Israelites, and before that Hebrews), there has been a Covenant. That Covenant had to start somewhere. And Hebrews began to exist with Abraham. Archaeology will one day prove me right. Until then, I am not going to lose any beauty sleep about it.

You are welcome to believe that, but it is inherently irrational. Surely you can recognize that?  There is no good evidence for a covenant other than your culture claiming it is so. It is no different than any other group that claims to have a privileged relationship with the supernatural. Until such time as there is non-anecdotal evidence for a covenant, it should be viewed as large scale narcissism and treated as such.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 07, 2014, 09:19:12 PM
This is the moment when we all realise we're not engaged in conversation with a rational person.
I think this is something we were aware of for a long time now.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 07, 2014, 09:35:51 PM
RAMA SET, our culture has claimed it to be so for 4500 years, which is about how far back Abraham lived. I mean, between you, me, and the fence post, if you don't believe in God, which is COMPLETELY irrational (in fact, the most rational belief would be Agnosticism), then nothing will convince you. And if you don't believe in the God of the Jews, well, then I guess you can say we're full of it. But if you are a believer in the God of the Jews (ie, if you are Christian or Muslim), you have a very hard time even justifying your existence, frankly.

I mean, to take on Christianity as an example. 1.5 billion rational persons believe that a Jewish Rabbi is God and yet they are not Jews. WHAT? That makes no sense at all, but ok.

FAPP and PIZA, anyone who can categorically deny the existence of God is completely irrational. You have no more proof that God does NOT exist than I have that he does. In fact, I have more circumstantial proof that he does. To be fair, of course, I would acknowledge that the most rational, albeit the laziest, argument to hold is Agnosticism. But Atheism is just outright a sign of stupidity. I have readily admitted that on the whole Arab-Israeli matter, I am NOT rational. So, you have won no points there.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 07, 2014, 09:44:49 PM
How are you determining a) How long Jews have been claiming a covenant and b) How long ago Abraham is purported to live?

For the record I am agnostic, but I consider the likelihood of the Abrahimic conception of god to be vanishingly small. The only conception I could buy in to is Deistic and if that is the case there is nothing in that conception that would change my life. It is just adding an idea before the Big Bang.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on September 07, 2014, 09:56:07 PM
I NEVER suggested that the Bible was a science book!

Yes you did:

And I would suggest, FAPP, that you have a personal problem. The Bible (The Jewish Bible) has continued to be proven correct on everything it has talked about. Archaeology has indicated so far that as far back as we can go, the Bible has been accurate.

I don't know how you can prove something accurate without looking at the predictions made and measuring them against reality. This is science. Your back-pedalling amuses me.

FAPP and PIZA, anyone who can categorically deny the existence of God is completely irrational.

Incorrect. A person that accepts the existence of some vaguely described phenomenon without any evidence to its existence is completely irrational.

You have no more proof that God does NOT exist than I have that he does.

I'm not making the claim that God does not exist. I'm making the claim that I have seen no evidence to suggest he does. A self contradictory book, complete with talking flora and fauna, does not count.

I have readily admitted that on the whole Arab-Israeli matter, I am NOT rational. So, you have won no points there.

Never get into a butt fucking contest with someone who likes getting butt fucked. Lesson learned.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 07, 2014, 10:54:39 PM
Actually, I grant I've insulted Muslims and Arabs. I have NOT insulted others on the planet. I have NOT implied anything about what other Jews think or do not think. I have insulted you, because I do think you are an idiot, yes. Other members in some cases, yes, in other cases no. Yes, anybody who dislikes Jews is by definition an anti-Semite and yes, a barbarian. what else would you call them? If I hated Black people (I don't) I would be called racist. What other word would there be for it? And yes, I do perceive my own culture as somewhat superior to others, but that is natural. Any person who DOESN"T see their own culture as superior to others is going to commit cultural suicide. That is a case of Felony Stupid.

So, for the record. I don't like Arabs, or Muslims generally. I do think Lord Dave is a fucktard. Anyone who dislikes Jews IS an anti-Semite, just as anyone who disliked Blacks would be a racist. And any rational human should prefer his own culture to that of another. To further clarify, I am an English Jew. I prefer the English and Jewish civilisations as the most civilised as of the world.

I know, I know, that is going to sound not Politically Correct. Well, tough shit. Wake up, my friends. Political Correctness is NOT one of my strong points.
You also said that without Jews, no one else would have made the scientific they did.  (Like the polio Vacccine)  That's insulting.  You've also said you disregard international law and what the UN does yet then go run to it when you defend the Jewish claim to the land now known as Israel.

Also, hating Jews for being a Jew is anti-Semite.  Hating Jews for their culture of arrogance and self entitlement is not.  It's like if you hated Muslims for wanting to tax other religions like their beliefs say.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 07, 2014, 11:37:18 PM
You have no more proof that God does NOT exist than I have that he does.
Indeed. If we did, we would be getting some sort of award for proving that informal logic as we know it is completely moot.

We do not need to categorically deny the existence of a god. We merely reject the notion, since it's unsubstantiated. Similarly, you cannot disprove my claim that I'm a millionaire, but it doesn't make you irrational to just take my word for it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 07, 2014, 11:58:05 PM
Last I checked, I never went to the UN to defend Israel. Israel created itself by winning its War for Independence against five Arab armies. If the UN had NOT recognised it, Israel would likely have told it to go fuck itself.

The Polio vaccine was invented by a Jew. Would a non-Jew have invented it? Probably, but it would have been more years, and a lot of deaths later.

FAPP, again, I was referring to the historical aspects of the book, not the so-called scientific, which the book never claimed to be about.

There is plenty of anecdotal evidence for the existence of God. Now, whether that God be the Abrahamic God, or some other, that gets us into a WHOLE different argument. I'm prepared to discuss that with you, but not in this thread. I'm not here to prove or disprove the existence of God, nor any type of God in particular.

QUOTE from Rama Set: "How are you determining a) How long Jews have been claiming a covenant and b) How long ago Abraham is purported to live?

For the record I am agnostic, but I consider the likelihood of the Abrahimic conception of god to be vanishingly small. The only conception I could buy in to is Deistic and if that is the case there is nothing in that conception that would change my life. It is just adding an idea before the Big Bang."

I am determining about how long Jews have claimed a Covenant simply from the historical fact that our People, as a People, have existed for 4500 years (more or less). The New Year as of 25 September will be 5775. Of course, the year indicates the supposed year of the world (Anno Mundi), ie, the year of Creation. Of course, that comes from a literal reading of Genesis which we don't accept any more than any other rational person today. I CAN'T prove Abraham existed. I think his existence will be proven AT SOME POINT, but it obviously can't be done now.

Any good history book will tell you about the history of the Hebrews. It starts about 4500 years ago. We are pretty much the culture with the oldest monotheistic religion on Earth. Akhenaten MAY have been earlier (I'm not sure) but his beliefs did not survive him.

So there you have it, friends. Carry on! A fine discussion! Absolutely fine! (SNIFFS AT MY CIGAR TO DETERMINE HOW GOOD IT IS).

And again, rejecting the notion of God's existence outright is illogical since you cannot prove the non-existence thereof. Perhaps we can both agree to a certain amount of illogic, since, as I indicated, the most logical, albeit intellectually laziest, argument would be Agnosticism. However, I still believe that the Atheist is more illogical than the Theist, because the Theist at least has circumstantial evidence backing him.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 08, 2014, 12:11:42 AM
I asked you how you ascertained the length of time the Jews have been claiming a covenant, and you said from a history book. That is not so much a how as a where. How is it known that the historicity of this claim is substantial? 

The Anecdotal evidence for God is terrible evidence.

There is no circumstantial evidence for God anymore than there is circumstantial evidence that God does not exist. Imposing an interpretation on circumstances, such as the precise conditions for life, is not evidence for God.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 08, 2014, 12:12:35 AM
Why is it relevant that the guy who discovered the Polio vaccine was a Jew?

And again, rejecting the notion of God's existence outright is illogical since you cannot prove the non-existence thereof. Perhaps we can both agree to a certain amount of illogic, since, as I indicated, the most logical, albeit intellectually laziest, argument would be Agnosticism. However, I still believe that the Atheist is more illogical than the Theist, because the Theist at least has circumstantial evidence backing him.

Why is Agnosticism intellectually lazy? I consider it merely scientific. Needing to rationalize your beliefs doesn't make them better, indeed quite the opposite. Agnosticism requires no sketchy, philosophical rationalization. This is a good thing.

What circumstantial evidence supports theism?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 08, 2014, 12:17:18 AM
Agnosticism is not lazy at all because unlike a faith based acceptance or a blind rejection of the supernatural, it requires an investigation in to the heart of the matter.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on September 08, 2014, 12:24:42 AM
FAPP, again, I was referring to the historical aspects of the book, not the so-called scientific, which the book never claimed to be about.

Nope you said "everything it talked about". The Bible talks about a lot of stuff, much of it retarded. Maybe you'd like to back-pedal some more and recognise that the Bible hasn't been proven correct on everything it talks about.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 08, 2014, 12:43:03 AM
QUOTE: "I asked you how you ascertained the length of time the Jews have been claiming a covenant, and you said from a history book. That is not so much a how as a where. How is it known that the historicity of this claim is substantial?"

So, if you claim otherwise, then fine. I shall endeavour to find sources. Here is one: "Judaism claims a historical continuity spanning more than 3,000 years. Judaism has its roots as a structured religion in the Middle East during the Bronze Age.[14] Of the major world religions, Judaism is considered one of the oldest monotheistic religions.[15][16]" (Wikipedia)

That was the easiest to find, of course. I can probably find more if I look harder. Now that says 3000 years. Now the Bible places Abraham's existence at about 2000 BCE. That would push it back about to 4000 years. The Rabbis have always told me about 4500 years.

But lets take the smallest number. 3000 years. Fine. So for at least 3000 years, Judaism has existed in some form (as ancient Hebrew Faith, Israelitic Faith, or Judaism). The core doctrine of this Faith is the Covenant. God made one with Abraham. If you reject Abraham, fine. Then Isaac. Then Jacob. You could even reject all three.

But eventually you get to Moshe (Moses). The fact is there are archaeological indicators that a people came out of Egypt, albeit not in the numbers the Bible uses, which may be taken as symbolic. There is proof that Hebrews entered and took possession of Canaan through both military and some non-military action during the time that the Exodus and following are supposed to have occurred according to the first six books of the Bible.

Even if you reject the Patriarchs, by the time Moses comes along, you have to accept that the Hebrews developed a covenantal relationship with what they perceived as their God. Even if you don't believe in God (and that is your prerogative of course), you have to acknowledge that they did (and do), and felt (and feel) themselves to be in a special relationship with said deity. Was Moshe real? Well, I certainly believe he was. Do I have proof of that? Not personally. Is there proof? I don't know. I am not an archaeologist. I am historian, but of Renaissance British history, not the ancient history of the Levant.

So, that's that. Regarding Agnosticism, it doesn't require an investigation into anything. It merely requires saying, "I can't prove either way definitively. Therefore I shall not worship." That is rather lazy to me.

FAPP, you are as stupid as you look. If you misunderstood my meaning, I was referring to archaeology. That subject can prove or disprove historical claims. Only rarely (and very rarely at that) can it be used to prove or disprove scientific claims. So, please, for the sake of all of us present, do cease to be a fucktard, ok?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 08, 2014, 12:55:34 AM
It merely requires saying, "I can't prove either way definitively. Therefore I shall not worship." That is rather lazy to me.
Please worship Big Papa Franklin, a guy I just made up. I didn't really establish much about him yet, but I know that he is either green or large, but definitely not both. He totally exists and will be the next big religion in a few hundred years; and if you doubt it, you're lazy.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 08, 2014, 01:02:47 AM
As indicated, philosophical laziness in refusing to investigate the meaning and cause of existence is, in my mind, unacceptable. As a Jew, I certainly believe that there are more answers out there, although I don't claim to know what they are. I believe that all moral persons must uphold belief in one God, ultimately.

I would encourage non-Jews to investigate the Noahides. That is the best choice, in my mind, if one is not a Jew. But that is up to the individual, and I hardly think that anyone should be rewarded or penalised for their religious beliefs or lack thereof.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on September 08, 2014, 01:09:55 AM
and I hardly think that anyone should be rewarded or penalised for their religious beliefs or lack thereof.

Wait a minute...
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 08, 2014, 01:11:23 AM
Allow me to clarify. If Muslims were peaceful, and didn't like to blow shit up, I would deal them the hand of peace. I don't object to their religion, I object to their desire to make all of us follow it. So yes, I shall kill them, in pure self defence.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on September 08, 2014, 01:13:00 AM
You shall personally kill them?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 08, 2014, 01:23:48 AM
If I am forced to pick up a weapon at some time in my life, and defend my family and loved ones, and my Faith and country, yes, I shall. I am not in the Army, US or IDF (and I am an American Jew; well, English, but I live in America, so chew on that). I don't want to kill anybody. I don't particularly like guns much, or the idea of blowing someone's head off (rather messy, that). But I shall. If the bastards come for me, and tell me I have to pay the jizya tax, I will blow their fucking brains out.

I am in no medical shape for military service. If I were, I would go to Israel now and join the IDF. But I'm 40 years old and have already had one heart attack. Trust me, if I could contribute to the defence of Israel I would. I would even go to Israel and become a settler in the West Bank. But my wife is a Lutheran. She doesn't even begin to understand this shit, let alone comprehend the idea of wanting to go into the kind of danger that would entail. What little she knows about this terrifies her already.

Why did I marry a Lutheran? Simply because I loved her. I attend a Synagogue that is a blend of Conservative and Reform. The Rabbi is transdenominational. I am probably the most Orthodox leaning in the shul. But that's the way things are. I married her in the Lutheran Church. We will have a Synagogue ceremony soon (which shows you the Rabbi is less than Orthodox).

I married because I loved her. It went beyond being a Jew. What was I supposed to do? Say no to the best thing that ever happened to me just because she's not a Jew? Even I'm not that stupid!

So there you are. Will I personally kill the bastards? Damn straight, if I have to. If they come for me, yes I will. And in the words of an ISIS defector: "First they will make a Caliphate of the Arab World. Then they will go after other countries."
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 08, 2014, 01:27:07 AM
I'm sure the Israelis appreciate you trolling an internet forum in their defence. Perhaps you should spread the truth to /pol/ and /r/conspiracy, they love Jews.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 08, 2014, 01:30:50 AM
 QUOTE: "Perhaps you should spread the truth to /pol/ and /r/conspiracy,"

I'm not sure what you're even talking about. Then again, you are an ass. And clearly a bit anti-Semitic. I've a good idea. Go fuck yourself.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 08, 2014, 01:38:23 AM
Yes, I do.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 08, 2014, 01:41:35 AM
Hating Jews is the exact definition of anti-semitism.  Your argument is ridiculous, Dave.

Really?
I thought it was like Racism where you hate them but for no reason.

So what's the hatred of Muslims?  Or are Jews special?

How do I hate the Jewish culture of being an asshole without being anti-semite?  Is that even possible?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 08, 2014, 01:45:38 AM
Hating Jews is the exact definition of anti-semitism.  Your argument is ridiculous, Dave.

Really?
I thought it was like Racism where you hate them but for no reason.

So what's the hatred of Muslims?  Or are Jews special?

Of course Jews are special. It takes a certain type of mental state to condemn 1.6 billion people to death.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 08, 2014, 01:53:08 AM
There is no Jewish culture of being an asshole.  There are assholes in every ethnicity.
Yes but yaakov is showing me that Jewish culture is about believing yourself superior in almost every way.  If he is the standard for Jewish culture, doesn't that make it a culture of assholes? 

I mean, sure, every culture has them but I don't know of any culture that tries to.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 08, 2014, 01:55:20 AM
QUOTE: "Really? I thought it was like Racism where you hate them but for no reason. So what's the hatred of Muslims?  Or are Jews special? How do I hate the Jewish culture of being an asshole without being anti-semite?  Is that even possible?"

LORD DAVE, much as I don't like you, your questions are legitimate. Judaism is the Civilisation of the Jewish People. It is more than just the religion, although that is probably its single largest element. But Jews are the only People in the world who practice it. If one converts to Judaism, that means one is joining a Civilisation. I would encourage you to read Mordecai M. Kaplan's seminal book on the subject "Judaism as a Civilization" for more on that. The reason hatred of Jews for any reason is classified as anti-Semitism is because Jews are the only people who practice Judaism.

Islam is different. Hating Muslims can be classified as a religious prejudice. 23% of all Muslims in the world are Arabs. The rest of them are something else. One can easily become Muslim without being Arab. Although Muslims do refer to themselves as the Muslim Ummah (the Muslim Nation), they are not so regarded by non-Muslims, I suspect because there are so many of them that their cultures have remained quite divergent. Jews are a much smaller number, so most of us have similar cultures, albeit with considerable variation (Ashkenazi vs Sephardi, and even further with the Ethiopic Jews, and so-forth).

However, Jews EVERYWHERE, no matter how far apart their culture, have markers in their DNA that indicate they are Jews. I have DNA that I share with other Jews that I don't share with you. And the Cohanim have DNA that they share with each other that they don't even share with other Jews, as do the Levites. So we are an ethnoreligious group. The Muslims are not. THAT is the difference.

I'm not going to say that the hatred between Jews and Muslims is any nicer because one is religious and the other is ethnoreligious. And in the Middle East, it is more ethnoreligious anyway, since the problem is specifically Arab vs Jew (as Arab Christians don't always like us either, although some do).

But that is your answer, if it helps.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 08, 2014, 01:57:50 AM
QUOTE: "Of course Jews are special. It takes a certain type of mental state to condemn 1.6 billion people to death."

You are as stupid as you look. I don't condemn them to death. If they dealt the hand of peace I would deal it back in a heartbeat. It is the fact that they want to make me a Muslim, make me pay a tax, or kill me that makes me want to fight them. Don't you fucking read?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 08, 2014, 02:22:46 AM
QUOTE: "Yes but yaakov is showing me that Jewish culture is about believing yourself superior in almost every way.  If he is the standard for Jewish culture, doesn't that make it a culture of assholes? I mean, sure, every culture has them but I don't know of any culture that tries to."

Do keep in mind that my views on this particular subject (the Arab-Israeli Conflict) are particularly strident, even for a Jew. Most Jews find the problem distasteful, and would prefer it not exist, but the methods of solving it are various. Many still believe in the Two-State Solution. I did once myself, when I was young and idealistic.

I think the majority of Jews don't know how to deal with it. Even I don't advocate wiping them out. I'm not a Nazi, much as you might prefer to think otherwise. My solution is, as I have said many times, population transfer. A removal of all Arabs from Greater Israel (with the possible exception of those who would take a specific oath of allegiance to the Israeli State) to the Arab country of their choice, with six months living wage for them and their families, and eminent domain for any property they may lose.

As far as the Muslim World is concerned, and how the West (including Israel) must deal with it, we must contain it. Organisations like ISIS must be destroyed without mercy. Total war must be fought against them and anyone supporting them anywhere in the world. Boko Haram, Al Quaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc must be forced to learn that they cannot pull their shit without being completely eliminated. After that has been done, the Muslim World must be given a choice. Either coexist with the West under civilised terms, or be contained to their own part of the world and not be allowed out of it. And lets face it: I think most of them will agree. They are NOT stupid. They know how to see a deal when they've got one.

So no, I don't want to kill every one I see. I have never said that. I admit, I get a little itchy when my dander gets up, but lets reason together and be rational people.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 08, 2014, 02:27:17 AM
SADDAM, I saw that a long time ago. I never said my views on that subject were standard. They are a bit strident, even for Jews.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 08, 2014, 02:31:45 AM
LORD DAVE, as far as being superior to others, I didn't suggest that either. What I did suggest, and perhaps I did so badly, is that the civilisation of Judaism has given rise to all of Western Civilsiation that you are a part of. Would Western Civilsation still exist without it? Yes. That is Obvious. But it would be completely unrecognisable compared to what it now is. You may prefer that it be that way, I don't know. But I submit to you that we live in the best of all possible worlds. That is a philosophical claim with which you may disagree, and that is your right, but it is the claim I am making.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on September 08, 2014, 02:38:15 AM
But I submit to you that we live in the best of all possible worlds.

Really? You can't think of anything at all that could possibly be improved upon?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 08, 2014, 06:03:19 AM
QUOTE: "Of course Jews are special. It takes a certain type of mental state to condemn 1.6 billion people to death."

You are as stupid as you look. I don't condemn them to death. If they dealt the hand of peace I would deal it back in a heartbeat. It is the fact that they want to make me a Muslim, make me pay a tax, or kill me that makes me want to fight them. Don't you fucking read?
Converting to Islam might actually make people like Jews more. Overnight the Israel problem would be gone.

Looks like ISIS are on to something here..
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 08, 2014, 10:34:31 AM
VINDICTUS, again, you're a schmuck. ALEX, of course I can. But each improvement entails a weakening in some other aspect of life. Something has to give. I mean, yes, life does need improvement. But when you take it all in all, it is as best as it can be without messing things up even more.

VINDICTUS,  were you born this stupid, or did you take a class to get that way? Get over it, man! Israel is here to stay. Just because you are one of the haters doesn't matter, Dude. All it does is make you look like a dumbass. Not that you don't ALREADY look like one, at least in the picture provided, but this just confirms that you are indeed as stupid as you look. Israel isn't going anywhere, and despite your girly-man attempts to give into the Muslims, does not give up the way you obviously do.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 08, 2014, 11:44:13 AM
Well, folks, Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) just sealed the deal to permanent conflict. He has said he would recognise Israel, but NOT as a Jewish state. Of course, Israel will never accept peace under those terms. So the "Palestinians" get their state, but Jews do not get theirs? That's an interesting thought. So, because of a decision just made by the "unity government", any peace between "Palestinians" and Israel is now a dead letter. Israel is many things, but they aren't stupid. They aren't going to commit political suicide by allowing a "Right of Return" of "Palestinians" to Israel proper. That might be allowed to a "Palestinian" state, but not to Israel within the Green Line.

Well, now you know who to blame when you ask why there is no peace between Israel and the "Palestinians". Israel is more than happy to recognise a "Palestinian" state (which I think is unwise, but ok, fine). It is those same "Palestinians" who won't return the favour. So now you know who to blame.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 08, 2014, 04:33:54 PM
If he is the standard for Jewish culture

I have detected the flaw in your argument.
I wish I could agree but so far those who follow Jewish culture over their native country's culture seem to be very similar to Yaakov here. Kiryas Joe here in New York being a fine example as is Israel.

Also, why is it so bad for Israel to not be a Jewish state?  Don't want a dirty Muslim or Christian to become PM?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 08, 2014, 07:45:26 PM
Kiryas Joel is a bit weird by ANYONE'S standards, even Israel's, and, as radical as you mistakenly perceive me to be, even me. And in Israel, Jewish culture IS the native country's culture. And my next question would be this: Would Saudi Arabia want a Jewish King? Jews have ONE nation, and a small one at that, to call theirs. We intend to keep it, even if 2/3 of us don't live there. Its nice to know we can. I'm certainly not giving the country to the Arabs, who would destroy it, just as they did Gaza, and every other part of the world they're in charge of.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on September 08, 2014, 10:50:39 PM
FAPP, you are as stupid as you look.

You don't know what I look like. Your move Kasparov.

If you misunderstood my meaning, I was referring to archaeology.

My mistake. When you said everything I thought you meant everything. Silly me. Next time I'll know that when you say stuff you probably won't mean the stuff you're saying and so I won't point out the withdrawal of Napoleonic magnitude lest you rightly call me a fucktard.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 08, 2014, 11:04:35 PM
I'll bet you're a good golfer. Go practice on your putz.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on September 08, 2014, 11:10:22 PM
I'll bet you're a good golfer. Go practice on your putz.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Bob_hope_lackland_afb.jpg)

Ladies and Gentlemen. Mr Bob Hope.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 08, 2014, 11:52:55 PM
You evidently missed what I said. Well, I shall leave you to get a good Yiddish-English dictionary.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 09, 2014, 01:16:32 AM
You evidently missed what I said. Well, I shall leave you to get a good Yiddish-English dictionary.

You evidently missed that fapp got what you said and that his answer was the picture.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 09, 2014, 01:31:37 AM
The answer makes no sense. I still think he needs to practice on his putz. Maybe Bob Hope needs to practice on his, too. But Mr. Hope was not a Jew. What is his point? I still think he needs to work on his Yiddish.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on September 09, 2014, 02:37:40 AM
What does great YHWH think about one of your favorite past times? Cursing.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 09, 2014, 02:42:54 AM
Given that I choose to do it in English, Yiddish, or Spanish, and not in L'shan HaKodesh (the Holy Tongue; ie, Hebrew), I suspect God is probably a bit more concerned with other, shall we say, more pressing matters (you know, revolutions, civil wars, starvation, minor things like that).
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 09, 2014, 02:44:27 AM
Don't forget invasion of the Gaza strip.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 09, 2014, 02:45:55 AM
Since that was justified, I'm not worried about it. They launched rockets. Personally, I'd have carpet-bombed the shit-hole out of existence.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 09, 2014, 02:49:11 AM
Your God likely doesn't smile on the murder of innocents. No one cares what you think.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 09, 2014, 02:52:08 AM
In fact, since 68 Jews were killed, 6800 "Palestinians" should have been killed. In addition to the ones dying in combat, male adult prisoners from the prison population should have been executed. 100 for every 1. And Israel apparently doesn't give a rat's ass what an anti-semite like you thinks.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 09, 2014, 02:55:45 AM
Israel doesn't matter. But a divine being capable of eternally punishing you does. Think carefully about which one you would like to please.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on September 09, 2014, 02:56:41 AM
So you pick and choose what rules to follow, Yaakov?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 09, 2014, 03:01:43 AM
Given how the Divinity handled Amalek, and reminded us NEVER to forget him, and to wipe him from the Earth at all costs, and given that "Palestinians" are descended from Amalekites, my solution of deportation is far more gentle than they actually deserve.  In fact, I often worry that God might punish me for my gentleness. But I can't bring myself to annihilate all of them if they submit to being deported. I am even willing to give them 6 months wages for them and their family and eminent domain for property lost.

So, look up the word "Amalekite". And "Amalek". Then you will see what I mean. Until then, shut your cake-hole.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 09, 2014, 03:04:22 AM
If God didn't want them here, he'd remove them. Checkmate, buddy.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 09, 2014, 03:06:28 AM
You are obviously a poor chess player. God helps those who help themselves. If what you said were true, the Hebrews would never have had to fight to get into the Holy Land way back in Joshua's time! EPIC FAIL!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 09, 2014, 04:00:40 AM
Well, despite the poor attempt at checkmate, nevertheless, the conversation is still a fine one! Absolutely fine! Well played. I must close and be off for the night, but do fire away, lads! I look forward to morning!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 09, 2014, 04:09:20 AM
Maybe it's a sign that not even God wants the Jews in the middle east.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 09, 2014, 11:16:18 AM
Wow. You really aren't doing yourself any favours. God gave us the Land. He never said it would be easy. But some schmuck like you coming along and saying that God doesn't want us there after we are there is like saying the sky isn't blue. It merely implies that you are a fucktard. I mean, I knew that already, but you are rendering it more and more obvious.

The Ingathering of the Jews has started. It will continue, in spite of anti-Semites like you and your refusal to admit that fact. And, read Zechariah 8:23.  You might find it enlightening.

"The LORD of Hosts says this: "In those days, 10 men from nations of every language will grab the robe of a Jewish man tightly, urging: Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."  HCSB.

Now this verse refers specifically to the fringes that Religious Jewish men wear on the corner of their garments (I wear them myself).This is a reminder to all of commandments that we must follow.  And in the end of Ages, when men do not know where to look, they will turn their eyes to us, for we are with God, moreso than any other People Group.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 09, 2014, 11:20:17 AM
He obviously didn't give you the land when you have to cut bloody swathes of it from other countries.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 09, 2014, 12:49:47 PM
Man, you are as stupid as you look. He has us do that to punish them for being so wicked. Have you ever even READ the first six books of the Old Testament?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 09, 2014, 01:29:30 PM
Given how the Divinity handled Amalek, and reminded us NEVER to forget him, and to wipe him from the Earth at all costs, and given that "Palestinians" are descended from Amalekites, my solution of deportation is far more gentle than they actually deserve.  In fact, I often worry that God might punish me for my gentleness. But I can't bring myself to annihilate all of them if they submit to being deported. I am even willing to give them 6 months wages for them and their family and eminent domain for property lost.

So, look up the word "Amalekite". And "Amalek". Then you will see what I mean. Until then, shut your cake-hole.

So I guess God ain't so ethical after all. He really is an angry God who promotes genocide.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 09, 2014, 01:45:10 PM
So I guess God ain't so ethical after all. He really is an angry God who promotes genocide.
No, it's just that the killing of the wicked is ethical.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMbLI81QXFk
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 09, 2014, 02:07:37 PM
Well, certainly of the Amalekites when they were identifiable as such. Now that they no longer ARE identifiable as such, the question is debatable. The origin of the "Palestinians" themselves is questionable. When I called them descendants of Amalek, I did so for the sake of argument. They themselves often try to say that they are indigenous to "Palestine". IF they were, that would make them Amalekites, yes.

My own personal belief, and what most scholars, Jewish and otherwise say, is that they are Arabs. That they arrived in Holy Land after the year 632 CE with the invading armies from Arabia and took up residence there. Which means that they shouldn't be "genocided" (to coin a new word) out of existence (which is rather brutal) but simply removed and put where they belong, with other Arabs. But if they insist on calling themselves "natives", then yes, treat them as Amalekites and deal with them accordingly.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on September 09, 2014, 02:26:44 PM
I'd say that 1,400 years of living there gives them a strong claim to being natives.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 09, 2014, 02:49:13 PM
And I'd say that 4500 years of living there gives the Jews a stronger claim.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 09, 2014, 03:09:58 PM
The origin of the "Palestinians" themselves is questionable.
Even if that's true, it doesn't matter. No one cares how they got where they are. The problem here is that they exist, and you're not letting them live in peace in their homes.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 09, 2014, 04:30:26 PM
Well, certainly of the Amalekites when they were identifiable as such. Now that they no longer ARE identifiable as such, the question is debatable. The origin of the "Palestinians" themselves is questionable. When I called them descendants of Amalek, I did so for the sake of argument. They themselves often try to say that they are indigenous to "Palestine". IF they were, that would make them Amalekites, yes.

My own personal belief, and what most scholars, Jewish and otherwise say, is that they are Arabs. That they arrived in Holy Land after the year 632 CE with the invading armies from Arabia and took up residence there. Which means that they shouldn't be "genocided" (to coin a new word) out of existence (which is rather brutal) but simply removed and put where they belong, with other Arabs. But if they insist on calling themselves "natives", then yes, treat them as Amalekites and deal with them accordingly.

You understand how deranged it is to approve of the genocide of any ethnic or religious group yes?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 09, 2014, 05:05:17 PM
Jews are literally nazis
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 09, 2014, 07:43:02 PM
Man, you are as stupid as you look. He has us do that to punish them for being so wicked. Have you ever even READ the first six books of the Old Testament?

That's stupid. Why would an omnipotent being want us flawed creatures to painfully kill thousands of other humans? He can just snap them out of existence if He wanted. Your old testament is written by morons and followed by them too.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on September 09, 2014, 09:30:23 PM
I suspect God

Wait. Didn't you used to type "g-d" because you were paranoid about God reading this forum and getting angry that you wrote his name.

Times have changed man. I remember when you used to fear God.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 09, 2014, 09:58:24 PM
He thinks Israel is God, and they're busy wiping out the innocent Palestinians. So he doesn't need to worry.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on September 10, 2014, 02:13:39 AM
But I submit to you that we live in the best of all possible worlds.
The optimist thinks that we live in the best of worlds.  The pessimist is afraid that it's true.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 04:10:15 AM
I've got about five minutes to reply to all of you. VERY busy day.

QUOTE: "Even if that's true, it doesn't matter. No one cares how they got where they are. The problem here is that they exist, and you're not letting them live in peace in their homes."

Population transfer, while not pleasant, has often been used to resolve diplomatic issues. The Sudeten Germans after WWII. Many Muslims in India, and Hindus in Pakistan in 1947 ring a bell right now.

QUOTE: "You understand how deranged it is to approve of the genocide of any ethnic or religious group yes?"

I'm inclined to agree, which is probably why the Amalekites are no longer identifiable, thus rendering the commandment null.

QUOTE: "Jews are literally nazis."

Godwin's Law. You lose.

QUOTE: "Wait. Didn't you used to type "g-d" because you were paranoid about God reading this forum and getting angry that you wrote his name. Times have changed man. I remember when you used to fear God."

Actually, no, I have never held to that radically Orthodox approach, although when quoting something, I have generally not changed it if that is how it is written. I would recommend reading a little closer.

QUOTE: "He thinks Israel is God, and they're busy wiping out the innocent Palestinians. So he doesn't need to worry."

That's just a stupid thing to say, but then, we've already determined that you ARE as stupid as you look.

QUOTE: "The optimist thinks that we live in the best of worlds.  The pessimist is afraid that it's true."

I am neither. I simply acknowledge the world as it is, without placing a value judgment on it. It is neither good nor bad that we live in the best of all possible worlds. It is what it is.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 10, 2014, 05:09:51 AM
Godwin's law isn't a logical fallacy. That's like saying "Universal gravitational constant! You lose".

Quote
That's just a stupid thing to say, but then, we've already determined that you ARE as stupid as you look.

At least we agree that wiping out innocent Palestinians is very stupid.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 10, 2014, 05:15:21 AM
Population transfer, while not pleasant, has often been used to resolve diplomatic issues. The Sudeten Germans after WWII. Many Muslims in India, and Hindus in Pakistan in 1947 ring a bell right now.

That seems to have worked out swimmingly for India and Pakistan.  No sectarian violence between those countires right?

Quote
QUOTE: "You understand how deranged it is to approve of the genocide of any ethnic or religious group yes?"

I'm inclined to agree, which is probably why the Amalekites are no longer identifiable, thus rendering the commandment null.

And yet, you would carry out the commandment if you identified and Amalekite.  You don't see a quandary here do you?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on September 10, 2014, 06:07:33 AM
Yaakov always says he has time restrictions but manages to post often. He must be on Jew time.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 10, 2014, 10:25:21 AM
It occurred to me a few nights ago as I played candy crush that the Jews seem to be behaving in a way to compensate for something.  Then his comment of .2% of the population clicked:
Jews are trying to compensate for a failing culture and religion.

Of the major religions in the world, jeudaism is second to last only by Ba'al.  The Jewish population, while not in decline, isn't even keeping up with population growth.  Statistics aren't easy to come by but their low populatiin tells me they have a very low conversion rate.

Based on this, I feel their religion is failing and they compensate by trying to seem more important than they are.


Also, if they were God's chosen people, God gave them a crappy piece of land.  North America or even France would have been much better.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on September 10, 2014, 10:28:14 AM
Yeah, who wants to live in a desert anyway?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 11:46:27 AM
QUOTE:"Godwin's law isn't a logical fallacy. That's like saying "Universal gravitational constant! You lose".

Not quite. But it is widely recognised as a law that you cannot easily break without losing an argument. So, again, Godwin's Law. You lose.

QUOTE:"That seems to have worked out swimmingly for India and Pakistan.  No sectarian violence between those countires right?"

The only reason sectarian violence exists is because of the failure to remove ALL of the Muslims from India.

QUOTE: "It occurred to me a few nights ago as I played candy crush that the Jews seem to be behaving in a way to compensate for something.  Then his comment of .2% of the population clicked: Jews are trying to compensate for a failing culture and religion.
Of the major religions in the world, jeudaism is second to last only by Ba'al.  The Jewish population, while not in decline, isn't even keeping up with population growth.  Statistics aren't easy to come by but their low populatiin tells me they have a very low conversion rate. Based on this, I feel their religion is failing and they compensate by trying to seem more important than they are.
Also, if they were God's chosen people, God gave them a crappy piece of land.  North America or even France would have been much better."

Well, one, we don't want a high conversion rate. Two, .2% of the population is not unusual for a small nation. Imagine being a Rohingya, which nation is small enough to NOT have its own nation, but to be ruled (rather badly) by Myanmar. Or how about a tiny tribe of naked Natives in the Venezuelan rain forest?

What you consider crappy is classified as pretty choice by large numbers of people. Israel, with proper irrigation, has some of the richest farmland in the world.Everything from dates and nuts to oranges and other fruits is produced exported from the Land. Granted, a weakness is the supply of water, but that IS and has ALWAYS BEEN a perennial problem that will hopefully be resolved evolved eventually. You obviously have little knowledge about that which you speak.


QUOTE: "And yet, you would carry out the commandment if you identified and Amalekite.  You don't see a quandary here do you?"

Not at all. During the day when biblical law was interpreted more strictly, nobody, neither the Hebrews, nor their enemies were inclined to be gentle about the way they fought. So if Amalek were tring to kill off the Hebrews, then it was only appropriate that the Hebrews should return the favour. It is our modern age that seems to consider that inappropriate, probably do to the rise of weapons of mass destructive power. Even on a personal level, the damage you can do with a broadsword vs what you can do with a submachine gun is clearly much less.

Would I carry out the commandment to eliminate Amalek if I found it? I'm not so sure. Since the Bible indicates that they are from the Holy Land, the only other choice would be to deport them. And again, the most likely candidate for being them if they do still exist is the "Palestinians". But that does seem to fly in the face of logic, which show the "Palestinians" to be Arab, despite their claims of being descended from pretty much everybody who ever resided in the Holy Land!

To be honest, I think God knew what he was doing  I suspect he knew that a time would come when people would no longer wish to murder their neighbour's family because of his ethnic or religious ties, so, up to a certain point, he allowed for that, but once human values changed he found a way to render the commandment null.



Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spanner34.5 on September 10, 2014, 12:55:01 PM
It seems from earlier posts, you support the genital mutilation of Jewish male children.

Does his extend to female infant genital mutilation?

Do you recommend that we all mutilate the genitals of our children?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 01:04:08 PM
Male circumcision is not mutilation and never has been. It is widely done in the the USA by non-Jews simply as a health measure, to aid in the cleaning of the penis.

There has never been any practice of female cutting of any sort by Jews.

On a male, the pain, if any, is very brief.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lemon on September 10, 2014, 01:04:45 PM
If you echo the Nazis so precisely (this isn't saying Israel does or doesn't) then Godwin's law is fucking stupid, as you ARE echoing the Nazis and to not learn from history is the height of idiocy.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 01:08:27 PM
Since I am NOT advocating genocide, but population transfer, a very different thing, which would involve no deaths, Godwin's Law applies quite well here.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: jroa on September 10, 2014, 01:14:05 PM
My girl friend loves my uncircumsised penis.  Why do people do that?  It is barbaric and unnatarul.  Are you from the stone age, Yaakov? 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 01:16:48 PM
I REALLY could have done without knowing what your GF likes or does not like, friend. In Iowa, we call that TMI. Like I said, the Stone Age has nothing to do with it. Actually, the practice started in about the Bronze Age, although today it is carried on by Jews and Muslims for religious reasons and by many Americans for health reasons.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lemon on September 10, 2014, 01:19:36 PM
I myself am actually notJewish.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 01:22:10 PM
Well, good for you. Greetings! I suspect we agree on practically nothing, however. In fact, I suspect you're not religious. Your choice. Even if you were, we probably STILL wouldn't agree on much. That is ALSO ok. Put four Jews in a room, get five opinions. Happens all the time. Doesn't bother me any.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on September 10, 2014, 01:27:49 PM
Since I am NOT advocating genocide, but population transfer, a very different thing, which would involve no deaths, Godwin's Law applies quite well here.

Right, genocide is just your backup plan if the transfer doesn't work.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 01:29:28 PM
No, I wouldn't do that. I would go to forced transfer, at that point.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spanner34.5 on September 10, 2014, 01:31:22 PM
Male circumcision is not mutilation and never has been. It is widely done in the the USA by non-Jews simply as a health measure, to aid in the cleaning of the penis.

There has never been any practice of female cutting of any sort by Jews.

On a male, the pain, if any, is very brief.
It appears that your definition of mutilation disagrees with mine.

It also appears that your definition of mutilation disagrees with dictionaries.
QUOTE
Some ethnic groups practice ritual mutilation, e.g. circumcision, scarification, burning, flagellation, tattooing, or wheeling, as part of a rite of passage. In some cases, the term may apply to treatment of dead bodies, such as soldiers mutilated after they have been killed by an enemy.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 01:37:51 PM
Since your dictionary was presumably written without any input from Jews, it reflects a non-Jewish, possibly even slightly anti-Semitic, approach to the English language. I am sure if you looked up the Hebrew word "bris" in a Hebrew dictionary, it would not describe the term as a "mutilation". So it is all in how you perceive words. I'm not going to worry my head about what you, or your dictionary says, to be bluntly honest with you. I have better things to do with my time.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spanner34.5 on September 10, 2014, 01:52:29 PM
Or, myself and the dictionary could be anti mutilation of children.

It is time that people of any religion admitted that their religion is not perfect.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 01:54:38 PM
Like I said, it depends on the dictionary. Gotta run for now.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 10, 2014, 02:15:19 PM
Like I said, it depends on the dictionary. Gotta run for now.

Is this the sort of academic standard you hold yourself to?  If so, did you already eat the gum that your diploma was wrapping or can I have it?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 02:59:04 PM
QUOTE: "Is this the sort of academic standard you hold yourself to?  If so, did you already eat the gum that your diploma was wrapping or can I have it?"

Well, ask yourself. What would it say in a Hebrew dictionary (I mean a standard issue one, printed by say, Barron's, or what-have-you) under the word "bris"? In what dictionary in English does male circumcision get defined as mutilation? Oxford? Merriam-Webster? What edition? How much Political Correctness went into writing said dictionary? How much possible anti-Semitism is there in the dictionary? These are all valid questions to ask, and a failure to ask them is a failure to engage yourself academically with the question. I realise that Americans (most of them) tend to be idiots who accept whatever they are spoon-fed by CNN and MSNBC, of course (except for the wild Tea Party Right who go for Faux News). That is why you never hear REAL news in this country.

As regards the way the English language is spoken in this country, I have no respect for it. When someone says something so stupid as "The university alums were happy", they should be arrested. The correct word is of course, "alumni". But, God forbid we should use the language correctly.

Another example. " And now I introduce the Chair of our department." The proper word would be, of course, "Chairman", or maybe "Chairwoman". What kind of an idiot wants to reduce the head of a department to a piece of furniture? Again, PC bullshit.

Or the idiots in our lovely gossip magazines who use words like "vaycay" and other words of that nature that should be declared illegal under penalty of being fined. For once I actually agree with the French, who have a language police.

So when people start manipulating language to meet their political needs, I tend to simply pass them off as fucking retarded. Its that simple.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 10, 2014, 03:11:19 PM
First off, apologies, I thought your dictionary comment was referring to multiple definitions of the word "true".

As to the "bastardization" of English I daresay that the flexibility it employs and has always employed is what allowed it to become so prevalent. It is hard to master, but can also communicate simple ideas very easily. It is the ultimate tool in cultural warfare, which I am sure you can appreciate, given your field of interest.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 03:20:55 PM
I certainly do appreciate that English has been, and still is used for cultural warfare. I simply despise the bastardisation of any language. I speak two, and have some familiarity with a third, although I admit, that last was a LONG time ago. And of course Hebrew, at least for prayer.

I just hate to see people deliberately destroy English either through 1, laziness, or 2, deliberate political attempts to fuck with it. In the first case they need to be educated how to behave. In the second case they need to be cited and fined as they would be in France. I actually do agree with the idea of having Language Police (I don't know that they are called that per se). The Government in France actually enforces laws in  France such that if a merchant has a sign on his window that is written in garbled French, or bastardised French, they can be cited and fined for it. I am all in favour of that.

Apologies accepted, thank you.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 10, 2014, 05:02:51 PM
But if you were that stringent with English you may never have had someone like Shakespeare.  Besides, it sounds like too strong a limit on freedom of expression.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 05:31:29 PM
Its one thing to allow poetic license. Its another thing entirely to allow laziness of political agenda. And freedom of expression should not trump the language being maintained in dignity and respect. Say whatever you want, but say it in a manner that wouldn't make your English teacher vomit.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 10, 2014, 06:21:33 PM
Its one thing to allow poetic license. Its another thing entirely to allow laziness of political agenda. And freedom of expression should not trump the language being maintained in dignity and respect. Say whatever you want, but say it in a manner that wouldn't make your English teacher vomit.

What sort of punishment do you propose for those who violate the sanctity of the English language?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 06:40:39 PM
The same they use in France. Fining.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 10, 2014, 07:05:03 PM
The same they use in France. Fining.

what law are you referring to.  I can't find anything on this.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 07:40:16 PM
France has laws in place that forbid the bastardisation of the language, particularly the use of Anglicised French on signage in public.  If such signage is found, the merchant in question can be cited and fined. The use of foreign languages on signage, in music, websites, etc, is also severely limited.

See the Toubon Law.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 10, 2014, 08:17:11 PM
We need similar laws for racist Jews on the internet.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 10, 2014, 08:35:27 PM
France has laws in place that forbid the bastardisation of the language, particularly the use of Anglicised French on signage in public.  If such signage is found, the merchant in question can be cited and fined. The use of foreign languages on signage, in music, websites, etc, is also severely limited.

See the Toubon Law.

The Toubon Law only mandates the use of French in all government, commercial and public communications.  There is nothing I can see that speaks to the quality of French to be used.

http://www.humanities360.com/index.php/toubon-law-and-the-languages-of-france-1649/
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on September 10, 2014, 09:49:07 PM
Haven't we learned everything this tard has to teach?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 09:59:49 PM
QUOTE: "We need similar laws for racist Jews on the internet." Since Jews are not a race, the comment itself is stupid, but then, you are as stupid as you look.

In regard to the Toubon Law, it also applies to the bastardisation of French. I will attempt to find some information on that for you (and for me). I had read it it a few months ago, but I'm darned if I remember where.

FAPP, you are the fucktard here, not me. Grow up.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 10, 2014, 10:01:59 PM
As to the "bastardization" of English I daresay that the flexibility it employs and has always employed is what allowed it to become so prevalent.
Uh, no. English is actually a relatively poor language as long as flexibility and communicative power goes. The British Empire is what allowed English to become prevalent:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/The_British_Empire.png/640px-The_British_Empire.png)

Compare with the modern Anglosphere:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/Anglospeak.svg/640px-Anglospeak.svg.png)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 10:11:04 PM
PIZAA, that is a dumb thing to say. English is the second most widely spoken language on Earth today, after Mandarin. And Mandarin is spoken largely as an official language in countries in Asia. English is spoken as an official language in countries all over the world.

There were two reasons for the spread of English. 1, was indeed the spread of the British Empire. But the second reason was the fact that English assimilated so many words from so many different languages and continues to do so now. English to this day contains the largest vocabulary of pretty much any language in existence. Denying this is plain stupid.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 10:38:21 PM
It appears I mistook France for Quebec. The Charter of the French Language not only guarantees that French shall be the official language of Quebec, but even goes so far as to suggest that French has to be written larger than English (or other languages) on signage, and that if possible, French should be to the left of other languages on signage, and that words from other languages like names be conformed to French grammar (see the following quote in which the language authorities actually did NOT get their way, oddly enough, but I am guessing that what I read a few months back was a time when they did).

QUOTE: "Levying fines of up to $7000 per offence, Charter enforcers were widely labelled in the English media as the "language police" or "tongue troopers". While the Office québécois de la langue française (OQLF) provides several warnings[citation needed] before resorting to legal sanctions, allegations that it has abused its powers has led to charges of racism and harassment.[29] The OQLF took action against stores retailing imported kosher goods that did not meet its labelling requirements, an action perceived in the Jewish community as an unfair targeting that coincided with a high-profile case against the well-known Schwartz's delicatessen, the owner of which was subjected to failed legal action by the OQLF due to the apostrophe in his sign, which remains.[30] In 2002, there were reported cases of harassment of allophone merchants who refused to speak French.[31]" {Wikipedia}

And no, I did not choose the quote because it pertained to a Jew. That was incidental.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 10, 2014, 10:56:11 PM
But they are not particularly safeguarding against bastardization so much as ensuring French's prevalence. Indeed, anyone in Quebec who has heard uttered "le weekend" knows that Québécois french can be just as mutt-like as English.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 11:00:29 PM
Yes, you can say what you like, but try writing it on a sign.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: fappenhosen on September 10, 2014, 11:08:56 PM
FAPP, you are the fucktard here, not me. Grow up.

Is that Yiddish. I am keen to know more about Jews.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 10, 2014, 11:28:19 PM
Well, one, we don't want a high conversion rate.
Well that seems silly.  What, don't want to save people or something?

Quote
Two, .2% of the population is not unusual for a small nation. Imagine being a Rohingya, which nation is small enough to NOT have its own nation, but to be ruled (rather badly) by Myanmar. Or how about a tiny tribe of naked Natives in the Venezuelan rain forest?
Umm.... what small nation?  That's THE WHOLE WORLD!  0.2% of the WORLD POPULATION is Jewish, in and out of Israel. 

Quote
What you consider crappy is classified as pretty choice by large numbers of people. Israel, with proper irrigation, has some of the richest farmland in the world.Everything from dates and nuts to oranges and other fruits is produced exported from the Land. Granted, a weakness is the supply of water, but that IS and has ALWAYS BEEN a perennial problem that will hopefully be resolved evolved eventually. You obviously have little knowledge about that which you speak.
It really isn't.
http://wcfcourier.com/business/local/nation-s-richest-farmland-soil-touted-by-illinois-iowans-object/article_c3c72757-9e8e-53d1-b2ec-a73bb915bf8e.html
http://www.eoearth.org/view/article/152375/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_Israel

Quote
Only 20% of the land area is naturally arable.

Israel has also invested a lot in agricultural technology meaning the land isn't very good for farming without technology.  Thanks God.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 11:36:46 PM
QUOTE: "Well, one, we don't want a high conversion rate."
 
"Well that seems silly.  What, don't want to save people or something?"

Judaism has NEVER claimed that one needs to saved from anything. Judaism is the civilisation of the Jewish People. Aside from people born Jewish, and those few called to join us as Jews by Choice, we have little interest in making other Jews out of non-Jews. Why would we. That would be like the theoretical tribe in Venezuela wanting to make more little tribal members out of non-tribal members. What would be the point?

I never said that Israel didn't take a lot of work to make it arable. It certainly does. It is, after all, a desert. Although the environment during the Bronze Age was likely wetter and more amenable to farming. Hence the designation "The Land of Milk and Honey". But once you put the work into it, you get some pretty damn good results, and the Kibbutzim and the Moshavim have borne this out.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 10, 2014, 11:37:02 PM
Well, one, we don't want a high conversion rate.
Well that seems silly.  What, don't want to save people or something?

Yahweh prefers a small, dedicated group to... well, basically what Christianity has become. He doesn't want millions of people identifying as his people and not actually caring. In fact, I'm of the impression that there are passages in the Bible where he straight up murders his own congregations because they got too large.
_______

Judaism: where if bad things happen to you and you're not Jewish, they happened because you're not jewish. If bad things happen to you and your jewish, you're not a good enough jew. If bad things happen to you and you're a good jew, too bad.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on September 10, 2014, 11:37:41 PM
Is there any truth to the claim that the world is run by a bunch of evil Zionists?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 10, 2014, 11:39:16 PM
Is there any truth to the claim that the world is run by a bunch of evil Zionists?

If there wasn't any truth to it people wouldn't say it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 10, 2014, 11:47:33 PM
QUOTE: "Is there any truth to the claim that the world is run by a bunch of evil Zionists?"

Do refer to "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" for a clever forgery of a book that supposedly laid out the plan for Jews to take over the world. The book was actually composed by the Okhrana, the Czarist Secret Police, toward the end of the 19th Century. That is where that got started, though.

QUOTE: "Judaism: where if bad things happen to you and you're not Jewish, they happened because you're not jewish. If bad things happen to you and your jewish, you're not a good enough jew. If bad things happen to you and you're a good jew, too bad."

None of which are true, but ok.

QUOTE: "Yahweh prefers a small, dedicated group to... well, basically what Christianity has become. He doesn't want millions of people identifying as his people and not actually caring."

This gets us into the whole "Chosen People" business, which is misunderstood by Jews and non-Jews alike.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 11, 2014, 01:00:43 AM
QUOTE: "Well, one, we don't want a high conversion rate."
 
"Well that seems silly.  What, don't want to save people or something?"

Judaism has NEVER claimed that one needs to saved from anything. Judaism is the civilisation of the Jewish People. Aside from people born Jewish, and those few called to join us as Jews by Choice, we have little interest in making other Jews out of non-Jews. Why would we. That would be like the theoretical tribe in Venezuela wanting to make more little tribal members out of non-tribal members. What would be the point?
Power?
Also, so Judaism isn't a religion?

Quote
I never said that Israel didn't take a lot of work to make it arable. It certainly does. It is, after all, a desert. Although the environment during the Bronze Age was likely wetter and more amenable to farming. Hence the designation "The Land of Milk and Honey". But once you put the work into it, you get some pretty damn good results, and the Kibbutzim and the Moshavim have borne this out.
So God gave your people a desert and said "Have fun with that?"  I honestly think God hates Jewish people.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 11, 2014, 01:08:06 AM
QUOTE: "Power? Also, so Judaism isn't a religion?"

Judaism is the Civilisation of the Jewish People. Religion is perhaps its single largest component, but it is more than just religion. It is the religion, customs, manner of life, and folkways of the Jews. I would encourage you to read "Judaism as a Civilization" by Mordecai M. Kaplan, the seminal work on the subject, for more on that.

As far as power goes, I suppose you could say that. But that has never really been an aim of the Jewish People. We have always wanted to look after ourselves, yes. But power as such has never been an aim of ours, anti-semitic claims aside.

As for giving us a desert, like I said, in the Bronze Age, it wasn't as dry. They called it the Fertile Crescent for a reason.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Hoppy on September 11, 2014, 01:37:40 AM
Is there any truth to the claim that the world is run by a bunch of evil Zionists?
Yes.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 11, 2014, 03:29:14 AM
As for giving us a desert, like I said, in the Bronze Age, it wasn't as dry. They called it the Fertile Crescent for a reason.

That's not how deserts work.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on September 11, 2014, 04:05:03 AM
I am still impatiently awaiting a battle between the just forces of the Levee and the evil and greedy zionist forces of the Yaakov.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 11, 2014, 04:34:30 AM
VINDICTUS, remember, you ARE as stupid as you look. Weather patterns change in 4500 years, dipshit.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 11, 2014, 04:40:05 AM
English to this day contains the largest vocabulary of pretty much any language in existence. Denying this is plain stupid.
Well... "denying" this would be acknowledging simple facts.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on September 11, 2014, 05:16:48 AM
Hungarian is the most likely candidate for having the most words. They have well over 1 million unique (as in unique ideas. e.g. push, pushed, and pushing is not considered three unique words, they're only one word) with roughly 20% of Hungarian being untranslatable because other languages don't have words to cover their ideas. As for English itself, it is the third most spoken language in the world. Both Mandarin and Spanish take precedence over it. The only reason English is prevalent at all in the world is actually the USA's economic domination. If you want to make money, you want to do business with the US, and that normally includes learning English.

I'm actually surprised Yaakov isn't trying to argue that Hebrew is the bestest language ever.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 11, 2014, 08:12:42 AM
VINDICTUS, remember, you ARE as stupid as you look. Weather patterns change in 4500 years, dipshit.

Paradise doesn't turn into a desert in 4500 years. It's humorous that Israel still insists on squabbling over such a crappy place to live.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 11, 2014, 10:34:15 AM
 Regarding Hebrew, it may be the L'shan HaKodesh (the Holy Tongue). Some Orthodox even say it was the language of Creation. Whatever its benefits or lack thereof on a religious level, as a secular language, it has nothing in particular to recommend itself per se.

VINDICTUS, aside from being as stupid as you look, and putting words in my mouth, remember. You ARE the weakest link.

Basque is another one, as is Khmer, with an insane number of words. But nevertheless, I had always heard that English had every other language beat simply for the number of foreign words it has embraced.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: sandokhan on September 11, 2014, 03:13:43 PM
I am still impatiently awaiting a battle between the just forces of the Levee and the evil and greedy zionist forces of the Yaakov.

I am here.

What debate?


yaakov wrote:

Do refer to "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" for a clever forgery of a book that supposedly laid out the plan for Jews to take over the world. The book was actually composed by the Okhrana, the Czarist Secret Police, toward the end of the 19th Century. That is where that got started, though.

No, Okhrana did not do it.

It is a work copied from The Dialogue in Hell Between Machiavelli and Montesquieu (by Maurice Joly), no matter what others say (http://www.savethemales.ca/maurice_joly_plagiarized_proto.html ):

https://archive.org/stream/truthaboutthepro00londiala#page/n0/mode/2up


And even Maurice Joly copied the Dialogues from Jacob Venedy's work Machiavelli, Montesquieu and Rousseau:

http://mailstar.net/toolkit.html
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 11, 2014, 04:19:55 PM
QUOTE: "Sources for the Protocols
The Protocols is a fabricated document purporting to be factual. It was originally produced in Russia between 1897 and 1903, possibly by Pyotr Ivanovich Rachkovsky, head of the Paris office of the Russian Secret Police, and unknown others.[3][4]

Source material for the forgery consisted jointly of Dialogue aux enfers entre Machiavel et Montesquieu or Dialogue in Hell Between Machiavelli and Montesquieu, an 1864 political satire by Maurice Joly[5] and a chapter from Biarritz, an 1868 novel by the antisemitic German novelist Hermann Goedsche, which had been translated into Russian in 1872.[6]

A major source for the Protocols was Der Judenstaat by Theodor Herzl although, paradoxically, early Russian editions of the Protocols assert that they did not come from a Zionist organization.[7] The text, which nowhere advocates for Zionism, resembles a parody of Herzl's ideas.[8]" {Wikipedia}
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 11, 2014, 11:21:43 PM
So, where were we? What else is up for discussion? NOT counting the crap about "Nobody cares" And locking the thread, the conversation has been fine! Quite fine! What else is up next?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lemon on September 12, 2014, 03:39:56 PM
Is one still Jewish if only by heritage (i.e. Jewish parents)? I don't practice at all and I wouldn't consider myself Jewish but other people do.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 12, 2014, 05:17:10 PM
LEMON, one is still halakhically Jewish (Jewish according to Jewish Law) unless one changes one's religion (ie becomes a Christian, a Hindu, a Buddhist, etc). Simply not believing in God does not make one not a Jew. In the eyes of the religious authorities, one might be a "bad" Jew, but one is still a Jew.

As far as non-Jews go, that depends. Certainly some anti-Semite assholes will consider you a Jew no matter what you do. Edith Stein was Roman Catholic nun who died in Auschwitz because she was an ethnically Jewish person, irrespective of the fact that she had converted to the Catholic Church many years before the Nazis were even heard of.

As a Jew, you still have the Right of Return. You can still go to Israel and claim citizenship there if you so desire, unless you change your religion and become a non-Jew. In this case, you would no longer have the Right of Return.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 12, 2014, 06:12:12 PM
Lots of Catholics were killed in the holocaust, but mostly for dissidence.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 12, 2014, 06:16:56 PM
Rama Set, you are quite correct, of course, but in her case, she died for being a Jew.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on September 12, 2014, 08:05:17 PM
Wouldn't that lends credence to a Jewish bloodline and not just a religion?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 12, 2014, 08:40:02 PM
Well, as I have pointed out on numerous occasions, Judaism is a Civilisation. I would encourage you to read the book "Judaism as a Civilization" by Mordecai M. Kaplan, the seminal work on the subject. There is no doubt that Jews comprise an ethno-religious group. We are similar to Latinos in that we can and do come from any race. But Jews by Birth have DNA that they share with each other that they do not share with non-Jews. Obviously, Jews by Choice do not have those DNA markers. But usually they marry other Jews, and their children acquire those markers.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on September 12, 2014, 08:45:39 PM
What happens to a birth Jew when they no longer believe in the religion? Are they no longer a Jew?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 12, 2014, 08:49:40 PM
 One is still halakhically Jewish (Jewish according to Jewish Law) unless one changes one's religion (ie becomes a Christian, a Hindu, a Buddhist, etc). Simply not believing in God does not make one not a Jew. In the eyes of the religious authorities, one might be a "bad" Jew, but one is still a Jew.

As far as non-Jews go, that depends. Certainly some anti-Semite assholes will consider you a Jew no matter what you do. Edith Stein was Roman Catholic nun who died in Auschwitz because she was an ethnically Jewish person, irrespective of the fact that she had converted to the Catholic Church many years before the Nazis were even heard of.

As a Jew, you still have the Right of Return. You can still go to Israel and claim citizenship there if you so desire, unless you change your religion and become a non-Jew. In this case, you would no longer have the Right of Return.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on September 12, 2014, 08:55:59 PM
That repost didn't answer my question. Is a Jew by birth still a Jew if they no longer believe in Judaism?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 12, 2014, 09:05:23 PM
Yes, a Jew by birth is still considered a Jew if they reject the religion. The only way that they are no longer classified as a Jew is if they actively join a non-Jewish religion. In this case, they would obviously be ethnically Jewish. Their DNA doesn't change. But they would lose all rights within the Jewish community, and that includes any rights that the State of Israel extends to Jews, including the Right of Return.

Although they are obviously still an ethnic Jew, for all intents and purposes, they are treated as whatever they have decided to be (a Hindu, or Christian, or Muslim, or whatever). Essentially, they are treated as a non-Jew. And the State of Israel treats them as such for legal purposes.

On the other hand, if a Jew by Birth becomes an atheist, he remains a Jew ethnically and culturally, and continues to be so regarded within the Jewish community. Although the religious authorities may consider him a "bad" Jew, he IS still a Jew in both the ethnic and cultural sense of the word, and this is also recognised for legal purposes by the State of Israel, where he retains his Jewish identity, and is still allowed the Right of Return, and any other rights that Israel extends to Jews.

Its all rather complicated, and gets into the VERY complicated question of "who is a Jew?". And trying to answer that question thoroughly would keep us here for about the next six weeks. If you like, I can attempt to discuss that with you. Just say the word. But I daresay my wife will be coming home from work shortly, so I must buzz off for a bit. I'll be on a bit longer, and then be back later or tomorrow.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 12, 2014, 09:08:36 PM
What genetic markers make a Jew, a Jew?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on September 12, 2014, 09:13:13 PM
So then there are ethnic Jews and then there are religious Jews.  So the Catholic nun could have been killed for being a Jew because of heritage even if she became a "non-Jew" from religious conversion.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 12, 2014, 09:15:29 PM
I am not a geneticist, so I can't answer that question in the scientific sense that I think you're asking it. But there are markers in the DNA that Jews share with other Jews that they don't share with non-Jews. Furthermore, (an order of Priests) Levites within the Jewish community share markers with each other that they don't share even with other Jews. And Cohanim (a higher order of Priests) share an even tighter set of markers with each other that they do NOT share with Levites or other Jews. I don't know the details, again, because I'm not a scientist. You would have to ask somebody whose specialty is genetics. 

Please note that in the absence of a Temple, the Levites and the Cohanim don't have duties per se. They at present get certain honours in the shul, and say certain blessings over the congregation (or delegate someone else to do it). If the Temple is ever rebuilt, then they would have certain responsibilities, of course.

DUCK, yes, and Edith Stein died in Auschwitz for precisely that reason. She was an ethnic Jew, and the fact that she had converted to Catholicism long before the Nazis were heard of was not enough to save her.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 12, 2014, 09:52:08 PM
I did some reading on the subject.

You are wrong.  While there are genetic markers not commonly found in other groups they are all found in groups originating in the northern fertile crescent.  This includes non-jew Palestinians.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Hoppy on September 12, 2014, 09:58:49 PM
What genetic markers make a Jew, a Jew?
A pointed crooked nose.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 12, 2014, 10:28:00 PM
QUOTE: "I did some reading on the subject.

You are wrong.  While there are genetic markers not commonly found in other groups they are all found in groups originating in the northern fertile crescent.  This includes non-jew Palestinians."

I'm not sure what reading you did, but you are full of it. Jews live all over the world. If in fact you were correct, then "Palestinians" would have the same frequency of incidence of Tay-Sachs Disease as Ashkenazi Jews do, along with other interesting genetic disorders. Even other Jews don't have the same problems, so go figure.

The fact remains that Jews are an ethnic group. You can argue this all you want, and you will lose the argument, no matter how many times you argue it. Jews from Ethiopia share genetic markers with Jews from Iraq and Jews from Germany that they do not share with "Palestinians" (or anyone else for that matter).

I would encourage you to read something intelligent, and then get back to me when you actually know what you are talking about. I realise that might be difficult for you, but do try.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 12, 2014, 11:10:36 PM
QUOTE: "I did some reading on the subject.

You are wrong.  While there are genetic markers not commonly found in other groups they are all found in groups originating in the northern fertile crescent.  This includes non-jew Palestinians."

I'm not sure what reading you did, but you are full of it. Jews live all over the world. If in fact you were correct, then "Palestinians" would have the same frequency of incidence of Tay-Sachs Disease as Ashkenazi Jews do, along with other interesting genetic disorders. Even other Jews don't have the same problems, so go figure.

The fact remains that Jews are an ethnic group. You can argue this all you want, and you will lose the argument, no matter how many times you argue it. Jews from Ethiopia share genetic markers with Jews from Iraq and Jews from Germany that they do not share with "Palestinians" (or anyone else for that matter).

I would encourage you to read something intelligent, and then get back to me when you actually know what you are talking about. I realise that might be difficult for you, but do try.

I'm not sure I would consider genetic abnormalities which are the result of inbreeding to be genetic markers. Wouldn't that definition extend to saying that European royalty is (or at least was) its own ethnic group?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 12, 2014, 11:19:47 PM
QUOTE: "I did some reading on the subject.

You are wrong.  While there are genetic markers not commonly found in other groups they are all found in groups originating in the northern fertile crescent.  This includes non-jew Palestinians."

I'm not sure what reading you did, but you are full of it. Jews live all over the world. If in fact you were correct, then "Palestinians" would have the same frequency of incidence of Tay-Sachs Disease as Ashkenazi Jews do, along with other interesting genetic disorders. Even other Jews don't have the same problems, so go figure.

The fact remains that Jews are an ethnic group. You can argue this all you want, and you will lose the argument, no matter how many times you argue it. Jews from Ethiopia share genetic markers with Jews from Iraq and Jews from Germany that they do not share with "Palestinians" (or anyone else for that matter).

I would encourage you to read something intelligent, and then get back to me when you actually know what you are talking about. I realise that might be difficult for you, but do try.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews

Have fun.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 13, 2014, 02:25:07 AM
Well, given that Arabs are sons of Abraham by Ishmael, & Jews are sons of Abraham by Isaac (the 2 men were half-brothers), this does stand to reason. Ought to smack my head for not thinking of this. Of course Arabs & Jews are related. But they are still separate, albeit related, ethnic groups. So yes, you're partly right, I'll grant the point. But I stand by what I said re: the Levites, the Cohanim, & Jews generally, & their various DNA markers. The Samaritans are obvious. They are mixed, half Israelite & half Assyrian, mostly.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 13, 2014, 06:01:08 AM
Do you know that Arabs and Jews are not literally the direct descendants of the sons of Abraham?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 13, 2014, 06:24:39 AM
Do you know that Arabs and Jews are not literally the direct descendants of the sons of Abraham?

If he were intelligent enough to realise this, he wouldn't be a Muslim hating Jew.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 13, 2014, 11:55:36 AM
Well, given that Arabs are sons of Abraham by Ishmael, & Jews are sons of Abraham by Isaac (the 2 men were half-brothers), this does stand to reason. Ought to smack my head for not thinking of this. Of course Arabs & Jews are related. But they are still separate, albeit related, ethnic groups. So yes, you're partly right, I'll grant the point. But I stand by what I said re: the Levites, the Cohanim, & Jews generally, & their various DNA markers. The Samaritans are obvious. They are mixed, half Israelite & half Assyrian, mostly.
Why do Jews usually like to mate only with other Jews despite a world wide distribution of Jews and such low population numbers?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 13, 2014, 12:29:59 PM
VINDICUS, remember, you lack the level of intelligence that your picture would indicate that you do. And I see no reason to dispute the tradition attribution of descent for Arabs and the Jews just because an atheist suggests it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 13, 2014, 03:57:48 PM
VINDICUS, remember, you lack the level of intelligence that your picture would indicate that you do. And I see no reason to dispute the tradition attribution of descent for Arabs and the Jews just because an atheist suggests it.

Agnostic thanks.

I say this not because I doubt the existence of God but because suggesting that the entire population of Arabs and Jews began only 5000 years ago with one man is ridiculous on its face.

Seriously. This is YEC style nonsense.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on September 13, 2014, 04:24:12 PM
Yaakov, do you take all parts of the Bible literally?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 13, 2014, 06:03:17 PM
Actually, no, I do not.  But Judaism has been around for about 4500 years as an existing Faith tradition separate from others. And that is about how far back Abraham is said to have lived (perhaps a bit further back).
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on September 13, 2014, 07:19:27 PM
What determines which parts of the Bible are absolute fact and which parts are simply metaphors or analogies? As far as I know, the Bible doesn't make a point of differentiating between fact and fiction.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on September 13, 2014, 07:52:40 PM
Can I become a Jew?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 13, 2014, 10:37:04 PM
BEARDO, you could if you were willing to put in the time for a conversion class.

QUOTE: "What determines which parts of the Bible are absolute fact and which parts are simply metaphors or analogies? As far as I know, the Bible doesn't make a point of differentiating between fact and fiction."

A VERY good question, that! You are are right, of course. The raw text of the Scripture doesn't tell us anything like that. We rely on scholars who know what they are talking about. And of course, its always difficult to find scholars who understand the modern techniques without given into the liberal BS, but also understand the wisdom of our Fathers.

Its a fine balance. How do you accept the wisdom of the Rabbis of Blessed Memory while still applying the historical-critical method to the Bible? How do you do the last while still recognising that God is still ultimately responsible for the Bible and the historical-critical method can be overdone with regards to the Biblical text?

Those are hard questions to answer. But answer them we must if we are to remain faithful as Jews, and faithful as academics to our field of study (whatever that may be).
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 13, 2014, 10:45:25 PM
So you have no good criteria?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 13, 2014, 10:52:32 PM
So you have no good criteria?
Does anyone?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lemon on September 13, 2014, 10:57:16 PM
How do you view Irish people? And separately, if you care, how do you view Republic of Ireland and Israel relations?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 13, 2014, 11:15:35 PM
LORD DAVE and RAMA SET, both valid questions. I think each person tries to answer that one for himself, at least to a point. All Jews put great pride in education. But the kind of education one gets will be determined by what kind of Jew you are. Are you Orthodox? Then you will probably end up with Yeshiva.

Are you Reform? Then probably a public education and Hebrew school on Sunday. And of course, university studies. A Conservative? Similar, but with more of an interest on traditional Jewish teaching.

But who makes the decisions about what the criteria are? Well, in the field of religion, it is the religious authorities, and the scholars who teach. That is true no matter what religion you belong to, so far as I know.

For us, I would say its the Rabbis of Blessed Memory that determined the realms of permitted inquiry. But for a Jew, that almost anything. The only thing you CAN'T touch is the basic phrase: "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One." the rest of it is up for argument, although I personally am not inclined to debate it much, because of my Orthodox tendencies.

I have nothing against the Irish. I know next to nothing about how Israel and the Irish Republic have related or failed to relate over the years. I do know that I have little use for the Catholic Church, but that's another issue altogether. There are plenty of Irish that would disagree with me on that, and recently, plenty that would agree with me!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 13, 2014, 11:57:18 PM
Don't you think the criteria for what is literally true in the Bible should rely upon archaeological techniques and stringent tests of historicity rather than the teachings of an understandably biased source?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 14, 2014, 12:01:39 AM
Don't you think the criteria for what is literally true in the Bible should rely upon archaeological techniques and stringent tests of historicity rather than the teachings of an understandably biased source?


Jews are God's chosen and therefore perfect in their knowledge.  Why would they need anything else?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 14, 2014, 12:33:25 AM
Don't you think the criteria for what is literally true in the Bible should rely upon archaeological techniques and stringent tests of historicity rather than the teachings of an understandably biased source?


Jews are God's chosen and therefore perfect in their knowledge.  Why would they need anything else?

Because people think they are dicks?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lemon on September 14, 2014, 08:40:54 AM
There's too many Muslims flooding into Europe. What did the Holy Roman Empire even mean? Apparently nothing. #smh
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 14, 2014, 11:33:47 AM
LEMON, I agree with you on that. RAMA SET, I'm inclined to agree with you, insofar as it is possible. But remember, they had a hard time finding a Jeep in the Sinai Peninsula from the Yom Kippur War recently because it had been buried in 50 feet of sand. So, of necessity, there are going to be limitations on what archaeology is able to accomplish at any one time.

And remember that the historicity of things when you're dealing with Judaism and the Jews is a little different than when you're dealing with younger civilisations. The Jewish civilisation is 4500 years old. We have maintained our culture and way of life far longer than most civilisations have on this planet, except the Chinese and possibly the Hindu (the Hindu being about the same age, and the Chinese being about 1500 years older).

Our civilisation has passed down our history through oral AND written traditions for 4500 years. When you see that the Written Torah is backed by the Oral Torah (the Oral Traditions of our Fathers), the history therein becomes a bit harder to dismiss out of hand. I am not suggesting that further research shouldn't be done. Of course it should. But what I am suggesting is that Torah gets the benefit of the doubt until such time as it is proven definitively true (most likely) or definitively false (highly unlikely).
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 14, 2014, 11:40:00 AM
LEMON, I agree with you on that. RAMA SET, I'm inclined to agree with you, insofar as it is possible. But remember, they had a hard time finding a Jeep in the Sinai Peninsula from the Yom Kippur War recently because it had been buried in 50 feet of sand. So, of necessity, there are going to be lim
itations on what archaeology is able to accomplish at any one time.

And remember that the historicity of things when you're dealing with Judaism and the Jews is a little different than when you're dealing with younger civilisations. The Jewish civilisation is 4500 years old. We have maintained our culture and way of life far longer than most civilisations have on this planet, except the Chinese and possibly the Hindu (the Hindu being about the same age, and the Chinese being about 1500 years older).

Our civilisation has passed down our history through oral AND written traditions for 4500 years. When you see that the Written Torah is backed by the Oral Torah (the Oral Traditions of our Fathers), the history therein becomes a bit harder to dismiss out of hand. I am not suggesting that further research shouldn't be done. Of course it should. But what I am suggesting is that Torah gets the benefit of the doubt until such time as it is proven definitively true (most likely) or definitively false (highly unlikely).
So because Jews can read and write, the Torah must be true?
You do know that speaking what's written doesn't count as proof right?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 14, 2014, 11:58:35 AM
DAVE, you evidently have no idea what you are talking about. The Oral Torah contains many things that the written Torah does not.

QUOTE OF MINE FROM ANOTHER THREAD: "Since the very foundational aspects of Jewish existence are based on the Exodus, it is difficult to conclude that such never occurred. Very much like the Chinese Civilisation, where the first three dynasties were determined to be mythical, now the third of those has been proven historical through archaeological and historical research. I expect the first two will as well. The same will occur with the Exodus in time.

To be blunt, and perhaps a bit rude, people don't just invent founding myths that endure for 4500 fucking years. You can invent shit that might endure for 50, or even a 100 years, but not for 4 and half a millenia. And ultimately, since the Book of Exodus has been around for 4500 years, and the atheistic/agnostic mindset only for about 250, I would submit that it is the latter upon whom the burden of proof rests. If you wish to argue that Exodus never happened, and challenge the accepted tradition of Jewish, Christian, and even Muslim civilisation by so arguing, then you'd better buy a damned good bow, and put some excellent arrows in your quiver, and be prepared to go to battle. While you're at it, be prepared not only to lose said battle, but be prepared to look like an asshole doing it.

And the claim that "modern biblical scholarship" has proven that Exodus was written 600 years after the event won't get you far with about 80% of the Jewish religious world (the non-religious Jewish world doesn't give a rat's ass one way or the other), and it won't get you too far with most of the Christian world, or any of the Muslim world (not that I care about the latter, but, I'm simply making a point). Most of us regard "modern biblical scholarship" as a joke. It was established largely BY atheists and agnostics, so it holds essentially no value because its deliberate intent from the beginning is to disprove the text, rather than look at it objectively.

I could go on, but I think I have made my point." END QUOTE.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 14, 2014, 01:04:00 PM
1. Argument from age.  Logical fallacy.
2. If they contain different things then they can't back each other up.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but the oral Torah has been written down at least once yes?  So its not exactly hard to keep straight.

And 4,500 years?  Are you judging this simply from the estimated age of the book you get your ideas from or were you there?

And if the former, doesn't that say more about how Jews are incapable of change than it does to prove a point about history?  Following a book's rules about culture for longer than any civilization should?

Oh!  And wouldn't that mean that while Muslims are in the 7th century, you're well in the BCE?  Meaning you are more barbaric than them?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 14, 2014, 01:15:46 PM
The Oral Torah is collected in 20 volumes of Talmud, which take up a shit-ton of space on a library shelf. I would recommend reading an encyclopedia entry on the age of the Jews.

As for the comment about the Muslims, do note that Jews are capable of change. We no longer execute for adultery, and the like. Muslims still LIVE in the Seventh Century. We refer to the Torah as the basis of legislation, but amend it as necessary to reflect life in the modern world, much as the United States no longer considers the Negro 3/5 of a person, or permits slavery, etc etc, but has amended its constitution to reflect changes in life in the modern age.

As far as keeping Oral Torah straight, its harder than a non-Jew thinks. Just because its been written down, in many cases, no firm decisions have been decided on its issues. They continued to be debated today. In some cases, firm decisions have been made, but in many, different decisions are made when the situation comes up depending on the circumstances.

Since human beings, and civilisations, do not always operate logically, application of the rules of logic cannot always apply. By that standard, they would have given up the search for the first three dynasties of China since for many, many years they had found NOTHING. But they did not, and eventually, the research paid off.

At present, I must sign off. Have a pleasant day, people.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 15, 2014, 12:05:00 AM
The Oral Torah is collected in 20 volumes of Talmud, which take up a shit-ton of space on a library shelf. I would recommend reading an encyclopedia entry on the age of the Jews.

As for the comment about the Muslims, do note that Jews are capable of change. We no longer execute for adultery, and the like. Muslims still LIVE in the Seventh Century. We refer to the Torah as the basis of legislation, but amend it as necessary to reflect life in the modern world, much as the United States no longer considers the Negro 3/5 of a person, or permits slavery, etc etc, but has amended its constitution to reflect changes in life in the modern age.

As far as keeping Oral Torah straight, its harder than a non-Jew thinks. Just because its been written down, in many cases, no firm decisions have been decided on its issues. They continued to be debated today. In some cases, firm decisions have been made, but in many, different decisions are made when the situation comes up depending on the circumstances.

Since human beings, and civilisations, do not always operate logically, application of the rules of logic cannot always apply. By that standard, they would have given up the search for the first three dynasties of China since for many, many years they had found NOTHING. But they did not, and eventually, the research paid off.

At present, I must sign off. Have a pleasant day, people.

Quote
When you see that the Written Torah is backed by the Oral Torah
Quote
As far as keeping Oral Torah straight, its harder than a non-Jew thinks.  Just because its been written down, in many cases, no firm decisions have been decided on its issues. They continued to be debated today. In some cases, firm decisions have been made, but in many, different decisions are made when the situation comes up depending on the circumstances.
I hope you notice the contradiction here.

So what you're saying is that you DON'T have the same culture as 4,500 years ago, the Oral Torah is debated and thus is not valid evidence of anything, and the written Torah doesn't back up the Oral in all places, giving that little evidence.

Also, didn't Egyptian Myth endure for quite a few thousand years?
Greek Mythology still persist to this very day.  Though it was believed to be true for a few thousand years as well.
And isn't Hinduism the oldest religion in the world?

I submit that people do invent religions that persist for thousands of years.  People are, after all, easily led.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 15, 2014, 12:41:20 AM
DAVE, you evidently have no idea what you are talking about. The Oral Torah contains many things that the written Torah does not.

QUOTE OF MINE FROM ANOTHER THREAD: "Since the very foundational aspects of Jewish existence are based on the Exodus, it is difficult to conclude that such never occurred. Very much like the Chinese Civilisation, where the first three dynasties were determined to be mythical, now the third of those has been proven historical through archaeological and historical research. I expect the first two will as well. The same will occur with the Exodus in time.

To be blunt, and perhaps a bit rude, people don't just invent founding myths that endure for 4500 fucking years. You can invent shit that might endure for 50, or even a 100 years, but not for 4 and half a millenia. And ultimately, since the Book of Exodus has been around for 4500 years, and the atheistic/agnostic mindset only for about 250, I would submit that it is the latter upon whom the burden of proof rests. If you wish to argue that Exodus never happened, and challenge the accepted tradition of Jewish, Christian, and even Muslim civilisation by so arguing, then you'd better buy a damned good bow, and put some excellent arrows in your quiver, and be prepared to go to battle. While you're at it, be prepared not only to lose said battle, but be prepared to look like an asshole doing it.

And the claim that "modern biblical scholarship" has proven that Exodus was written 600 years after the event won't get you far with about 80% of the Jewish religious world (the non-religious Jewish world doesn't give a rat's ass one way or the other), and it won't get you too far with most of the Christian world, or any of the Muslim world (not that I care about the latter, but, I'm simply making a point). Most of us regard "modern biblical scholarship" as a joke. It was established largely BY atheists and agnostics, so it holds essentially no value because its deliberate intent from the beginning is to disprove the text, rather than look at it objectively.

I could go on, but I think I have made my point." END QUOTE.

Please quote normally. It's unnecessarily hard to read your posts. 

Anyway, how are any of those arguments not equally valid for Hinduism, which is several millennia older than Judaism?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on September 15, 2014, 01:02:56 AM
Please quote normally. It's unnecessarily hard to read your posts. 

He can't. He accesses the internet through an old wooden rotary phone.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 15, 2014, 01:26:39 AM
Please quote normally. It's unnecessarily hard to read your posts. 

He can't. He accesses the internet through an old wooden rotary phone.
Amish Paradise?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 15, 2014, 02:04:43 AM
Actually, no, Hinduism is at most only about 1000 years older than Judaism, making that ONE millenium older, rather than several.

And I submit that although modern Rabbinic Judaism is certainly more developed than the ancient tribal Hebrew religion that Abraham adopted in Ur and went to Canaan with, or that Moses met God with in a Burning Bush, it is still the same recognisable Faith, and the same recognisable People practicing that Faith. Ancient Hinduism at this date 4500 years ago (about the time of Abraham) was a religion of the ancient Indo-Aryans occupying, if memory serves, the Northern part of the sub-continent. It was half of modern Hinduism, namely, the Brahmanistic half. It took about 2 and half millenia for the darker skinned Dravidians from Southern India to mix with their Indo-Aryan neighbours, producing the modern Indian, modern day Hinduism, and the caste system, with its multiple emphases on cleanliness, religious rankings, and even its preference to keep the skin colour separate.

So in that sense, Judaism being a recognisable Faith then compared to what it is now, it IS the oldest religion.

Egyptian and Greek myth were never coherent collections of writings per se. They were randomised collections, with competing stories that conflicted with each other, and vied for acceptance throughout the existence of both pagan systems.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: sandokhan on September 16, 2014, 01:24:10 PM
yaakov wrote:

So in that sense, Judaism being a recognisable Faith then compared to what it is now, it IS the oldest religion.


Edwin Johnson (http://www.egodeath.com/edwinjohnsonpaulineepistles.htm#_Toc54460029 ):

But what is not yet understood is the true epoch of the beginning of Hebrew literature -- in other words, the rise of a class of literary men among the Jewish people. It has now been long a growing opinion that the Biblical books are much later than the "tradition" from the "Revival of Letters" has alleged them to be. Some critics, like Ernest Havet and Maurice Vernes, have lowered some of the books many centuries on the chronological scale. In this way the public mind has to some extent been prepared for the conclusion which I venture to announce, that the Hebrew literature is distinctly a modern literature.

 In the first place, it is utterly impossible to trace the existence of Hebrew books among the Jewish people themselves beyond the epoch which I roughly date as "about 400 years ago," or the beginning of the Age of Publication. It is, indeed, alleged that the first Hebrew book was printed at a place called Soncino, near Cremona, a little earlier; but the student will discover, as before, that the fifteenth century dates are not to be trusted, and that sixteenth-century dates are very dubious.

But in general terms let me say that all our information about the Hebrew books from Hebrews themselves is sixteenth-century information. Only from the Age of Publication is any light cast upon the preceding darkness, and it is a light which convinces us that the Hebrew Letters were then a novel invention in the world. In Christian circles it is difficult to trace even the faint beginnings of Hebrew study in the earlier half of our sixteenth century. If the date of the Alcala Polyglott be true, Hebrew was of course known at that time to a limited number of monastic scholars, and was treated by them with no reverence, but merely as an instrument of ecclesiastical dominion. Their Latin version, so-called, is not a version or translation, but a sort of travesty of the Hebrew meaning. And I, at least, cannot conceive that such a thing could have been done had the Hebrew Scriptures been long in existence, and their meaning generally understood.

I have already pointed out what I hold to be the keybook to the system of Latin or Christian literature, the "List of Illustrious Men." Is there any corresponding keybook to the system of Hebrew literature? Undoubtedly there is; but that book is not the Hebrew Bible, which does not contain from end to end a solitary date, in the ordinary sense of the word, that can be used for purposes of science. Books alleged to be of Divine authority, and to contain a tradition from the creation itself, necessarily do not admit of being dated as matter-of-fact compositions are.

But now close the Bible, and open the other traditional books of the Hebrews, for which no Divine authority is claimed, and all becomes clear. The Cabbala, or Tradition, proves to be no tradition at all, but an invention of the Revival of Letters. The key-book is the "Sepher Juchasin" or "Book of Families," written in unpointed Hebrew, and attributed to the pen of one of the Sephardim or Spanish and Portuguese Jews, the Rabbi Abraham Zacuth or Zacuto. Though this little book has, never been translated, its contents have passed into various compilations, and may be conveniently consulted -- for example, in the Latin works of Wolf or of Bartolocci. The book is said to have been written about the year 1502 of our chronology.

Now, what is the programme of this work? It professes to contain a history of the events of the world from the Creation down to the time of the author. In particular, it contains the list of the alleged illustrious Hebrew scholars, and so corresponds to the Latin list to which I have so often referred. If you wish for particulars about Moses Maimonides, or any other famed writer, this list must be consulted, or one of the later lists based upon it. There is no dispensing with it. If it be a genuine record of ancient and mediaeval times, Hebrew antiquity is proved. If, on the other hand, it be, like the Latin list, a mere invention designed to produce the illusion of antiquity, the whole system is discovered to be a modern invention. I have no hesitation in saying that, tried by any possible test, the "Book of Families" is an invention of the Revival of Letters. Not only have no early records been discovered on which it is based, but the later Hebrew writers of the Age of Publication entirely confirm the opinion of the recency of the system.

I say that the admissions of the solitary Rabbi, Elias Levita, of whom a story is told that he gave lessons to Luther in Rome, are sufficient of themselves to establish the truth. What is the meaning of the admission that the vowel points are recent, but that the written language is still in a crude and imperfect state? What is the meaning of the admission that the Hebrew had ceased to be a spoken tongue in the mouth of the people, and that it had become the mere possession of literary men? It means that the Hebrew was the recent work of art of literary men. The Rabbis were in the same inconsistent position with all priestly scholars: they had to maintain the antiquity and sacredness of books which they knew to be fresh and of human origin. The truth, as usual, escapes for the initiated eye, and, possibly, was intended to escape by some of the more enlightened and truth-loving of these scholars.

The tales of "Palestinian" and "Babylonian" schools are but tales. I once thought that there were Spanish schools of Hebrew learning in the eleventh or twelfth century of our chronology; but, on detecting the fable of Zacuto's work, I found that notion must also be abandoned. Nor can I so much as make out anything definite about Jewish culture so late as 1492, when the great exodus from Spain is said to have taken place. The Hebrew accounts of that event are very slight, and appear to have been written down near the middle of the sixteenth century.

Another very important book for the understanding of the rise of Hebrew literature is the chronicle ascribed to the R. Joseph, another of the Sephardim, who is said to have lived in exile at Avignon and at Genoa. Here is a man who may be said to "write Bible," so thoroughly is he steeped in Hebrew poetical imagery. He is one of the best guides to the Bible extant; and, as his work has been done into English, it should be studied by all who wish to arrive at the truth. He is another powerful indirect witness against the antiquity of Hebrew letters.

Another fact that should be added to the sum of evidence is the bad state of the text of the early-printed Hebrew Bibles. Can you conceive it possible that a text which had been long in use, and had been jealously guarded by the pastors and rulers of the people, should come from the Press teeming with errors, and bearing all the marks of rush and haste? To me this is not conceivable. In short, it would be weakness to labour the argument, once clearly stated. It is this: The phenomena of Hebrew letters during the Age of Publication (or sixteenth century) forbid us to suppose that they are an invention of much earlier date.

Again: According to the Christian tradition, which my readers will find in the handbooks, the first Christian scholar who learned Hebrew from Jewish teachers was none other than our notorious Hieronymus, or imaginary Jerome, the mouthpiece of the monks of the Age of Publication.

Once more: When you understand the "Jerome" works to be of that time, many a cloud rolls away, many an enigma is solved. Through this imaginary scholar we learn that the monks had unpointed Hebrew before them; that, consequently, the same word might be read Roim, shepherds, or Reim, lovers; that another word might be read either as Salem or Salim, because "very rarely do the Hebrews use vowels, and the words may be pronounced differently, according to the caprice of the readers and the variety of regions;" that the Hebrew word DBR, without vowels, may be understood as dabar, word, or as daber, pest; that SM may either be understood as placed (sam), or as there (sham); and so on ("Hieron. Ep. ad Damasum," 125; "Ad Evag." 126; "Comm. ad Heb. 111., 5," and so on).

Further: It is through the Talmud alone that we can know what the Jewish scholars wished their people to believe about the Bible; and, certainly, the collection of Jewish lore called by that name was not heard of until the early Age of Publication, when it was denounced by Christian scholars as entirely inconsistent with Christianity. The Talmudic tracts give evidence that mere Hebrew caligraphy is still imperfect, and that correct readings have not been fixed, in many a passage. The good Rabbis veil their critical observations, such as they are, under the figure of the "Tradition of Moses from Mount Sinai."


Israel Finkelstein (University of Tel-Aviv), Bible Unearthed

http://books.google.ro/books?id=lu6ywyJr0CMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=israel+finkelstein+bible+unearthed&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4DgYVNPGD6viywOQ94HACA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=israel%20finkelstein%20bible%20unearthed&f=false

The Bible Unearthed begins by considering what it terms the 'preamble' of the bible "the Book of Genesis" and its relationship to archaeological evidence for the context in which its narratives are set. Archaeological discoveries about society and culture in the ancient near east lead the authors to point out a number of anachronisms, suggestive that the narratives were actually set down in the 9th-7th centuries:

   * Aramaeans are frequently mentioned, but no ancient text mentions them until around 1100BCE, and they only begin to dominate Israel's northern borders after the 9th century BCE.

    * The text describes the early origin of the neighbouring kingdom of Edom, but Assyrian records show that Edom only came into existence after the conquest of the region by Assyria; before then it was without functioning kings, wasn't a distinct state, and archaeological evidence shows that the territory was only sparsely populated.

    * The Joseph story refers to camel-based traders carrying gum, balm, and myrrh, an unlikely event for the first millennium, but quite common in the 8th-7th centuries BCE, when Assyrian hegemony enabled this Arabian trade to flourish into a major industry.

    * The land of Goshen has a name that comes from an Arabic group who only dominated the Nile Delta in the 6th and 5th centuries.

    * The Egyptian Pharaoh is portrayed as fearing invasion from the east, even though Egypt's territory stretched to the northern parts of Canaan, with its main threat consequently being from the north, until the 7th century

The book comments that this corresponds with the documentary hypothesis, in which textual scholarship argues for the majority of the first five biblical books being written between the 8th and 6th centuries.

Finkelstein and Silberman argue that instead of the Israelites conquering Canaan after the Exodus (as suggested by the book of Joshua), most of them had in fact always been there; the Israelites were simply Canaanites who developed into a distinct culture. Recent surveys of long-term settlement patterns in the Israelite heartlands show no sign of violent invasion or even peaceful infiltration, but rather a sudden demographic transformation about 1200 BCE in which villages appear in the previously unpopulated highlands;these settlements have a similar appearance to modern Bedouin camps, suggesting that the inhabitants were once pastoral nomads, driven to take up farming by the Late Bronze Age collapse of the Canaanite city-culture.


Dr. Gunnar Heinsohn has already demonstrated in his best known work (http://www.specialtyinterests.net/heinsohn.html ) that the entire historical period of 2100 BC - 600 BC was invented:

"Heinsohn has made a very important contribution to the revisionist debate by focussing attention on the evidence of stratigraphy outside Egypt. Dayton had uncovered many examples in museums around the world where near identical ancient artefacts of very similar styles and manufacturing techniques were given dates which varied sometimes by as much as 1000-1500 years. Heinsohn, from an extensive study of archaeological reports from most of the better known sites across Asia Minor, showed how these anachronisms had arisen. At site after site, archaeologists had artificially increased the age of the lower strata by inserting, without supporting evidence, 'occupation gaps' of many centuries. They did this in order to meet the expectations of excessive antiquity among historians, who had used Biblically derived dates for Abraham (c. 2100), initially seen as broadly contemporary with the great Assyrian king Hammurabi. Using this elongated time frame, great empires of the past such as the Sumerians, Akkadians and Old Babylonians were invented by late 19th C and early 20th C scholars to fill the historical voids. The ancient Greek and Roman historians, not surprisingly, knew nothing of these ancient peoples. Sumerian, said Heinsohn, 'is the language of the well known Kassite/Chaldeans, whose literacy deserves its fame'.

He showed that the Bronze Age started in China and Mesoamerica some 1500 years later than in the Near East and proposed this gap be largely closed by lowering the ages of the Mediterranean civilisations. He cited the Indus Valley where the early period civilisations, dated from Mesopotamian seals to c. 2400BC, sit right underneath the Buddhist strata of 7-6C. Seals from Mesopotamia are found in the Indus valley and in Mesopotamia there are seals from the Indus Valley. So the excavators have to say they have an occupation gap of some 1700 years. Thus some sites only about 30km apart have chronologies some 1500 years apart. But in the same strata, supposedly 1500 years apart, they frequently find the same pottery.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 16, 2014, 03:21:46 PM
You are making the mistake of assuming I accept ANY "modern day liberal Biblical scholarship". I do not. My rejection of that essentially puts your entire post into the round file, although I don't deny that the original core text may have been embroidered by later hands in the following centuries after Moses finished writing it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on September 16, 2014, 04:39:36 PM
sandokhan, you should really cite your sources for the unquoted parts of your post.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: sandokhan on September 17, 2014, 01:12:39 PM
I could bring here the overwhelming evidence which does show that the Exodus, as is described in the Bible, could never have taken place at all.

However, I will bring to your attention something you have no knowledge about, something new to our discussion.


THE SANTORINI (THERA) ERUPTION AND THE EXODUS

The extraordinary research performed by Dr. Max Bichler (Atomic Institute of Vienna) which demonstrates that the fallout from the eruption of the Thera volcano (Santorini), including volcanic ash and pumice, reached Egypt.

http://www.planet-austria.at/0xc1aa500d_0x0005a45f.pdf


This means that the eruption of the Santorini volcano is the basis of the twelve plagues depicted in the Exodus.

http://www.greeka.com/cyclades/santorini/santorini-volcano/biblical.htm

However, this leads to a huge problem, unsolved to this day, as the date proposed for the eruption of Thera is in the decade 1630–1620 BC, and is based on radiocarbon dating, dendrochronology, ice core measurements, and similar scientific investigations.

A later date was proposed for the eruption of Thera is in the range of 1535–1525 BC, and is “based chiefly on ceramic sequences and Egyptian synchronisms”.


If the natural disasters described in the Exodus chapters did also occur some 50-150 years earlier, why is their account missing in those books/chapters?

If the Thera volcano eruption did cause the plagues described in the Exodus, then this leads directly to the huge problem which is unsolved to this day, and which involves questions relating to the very foundation of the heliocentric planetary system.


Various authors proposed the theory that the planet Venus caused the pole shift which in turn lead to the stupendous catastrophe documented by Dr. Adam Maloof (Princeton).

The main proof comes from the Ammizaduga Venus tables which show that the orbit followed by Venus in the past was markedly different from that observed in the present.

http://www.skepticfiles.org/neocat/ammi.htm

Charles Ginenthal (Sagan and Velikovsky) has a great deal to
say about the Ammizaduga tablets, pp 281 - 284, quoting Livio C.
Stecchini's "The Velikovsky Affair":

     "The Venus tablets of Ammizaduga is the most striking document
     of early Babylonian astronomy.  These tablets, of which we
     possess several copies of different origin, report the dates
     of the helical rising and setting of the planet Venus during
     a period of 21 years...

     "Since the first effort at explanation of Archibald Henry
     Sayce in 1874, these figures have challenged the wit of a
     score of experts of astronomy and cuneiform philology.
     (Father Franz Xavier) Kugler (1862 - 1929), a recognized major
     authority on Babylonian and biblical astronomy, chronology and
     mythology, opposed the contention of those who claim that
     these documents must be dismissed as nonsense."  [because they
     do not conform to present orbital patterns for Venus]

 "Let me give some typical passages from the tablet:

 
     "In the month of Sivan, on the twenty fifth day, Ninsianna
     [that is, Venus] disappeared in the east; she remained absent
     from the sky for two months, six days; in the month Ulul on
     the 24'th day, Ninsianna appeared in the West - the heart of
     the land is happy. In the month Nisan on the 27'th day,
     Ninsianna disappeared in the West; she remained absent from
     the sky for seven days; in the month Ayar on the third day,
     Ninsianna appeared in the east - hostilities occur in the
     land, the harvest of the land is successful.


     "The first invisibility mentioned in these lines involves a
     disappearance in the east, an invisibility of two months, six
     days, and a reappearance in the west.  This seems to be a
     superior conjunction. The second invisibility involves a
     disappearance in the west, an invisibility of seven days, and
     a reappearance in the east.  This seems to be an inferior
     conjunction.  Most of the data in groups one and three on the
     tablet are of this form.  But the lengths and spacings of
     these invisibilities have a certain irregularity about them,
     and they do not conform to the manner in which Venus moves at
     present.

     "The data given in the second group on the tablet do have
     regularity - even too much regularity to be believable, - but
     they do not conform to the present state of affairs
     either.....

Adam Maloof (Princeton) and Lonnie Thompson (Ohio State University) confirm that a stupendous catastrophy occurred some 5200 years ago.

http://www.mayanendoftheworldplanetx.com/Pages/videostudio.html

Princeton University geoscientist, Adam Maloof investigates 2012 Maya prognostications, in response to the many queries he has received concerning the possibility of an upcoming geographical poleshift. Dr. Maloof's specialities include paleogeography, the study of continental plate transmigrations. In these National Geographic video clips, he travels from the frigid Arctic to the scorching outbacks of Australia to the dense forrest of Central America, to investigate geologic evidence and traditions of any pass geographic poleshift.

His research revealed not one but two important discoveries; one poleshift transpired slowly over a million years( posing no threat to life on earth) while the other happened abruptly some 5200 years ago(approximately the end of the Maya's last Great Cycle, when the last "world" ended.) Perhaps a coincidence, but it was enough for Dr. Maloof to pursue and study the ancient Maya legacy in greater depth. A journey that would take him from Dresden Germany, home of the famous Dresden Codex (one of four codices that survived the Inquisition) to the ancient ruins of Chi'chen Itza.

To understand how these ancient people with such remarkable mathematical and astronomical skills, were inclined to prognosticate the future with such conviction. Their obsession with cycles and climate change, their beliefs that all major cycles began and ended with global destruction.

With the aid of notable Paleoclimatologist, Lonnie Thompson from Ohio State University, they venture to the summit of the Quelccaya ice caps of the Peruvian Andes at sixteen thousand feet, to unlock secrets trapped in the glaciers for over five thousands years. While continents apart, from ice core samples at Mt. Kilimanjaro, Africa to "Otzi The Iceman" from the Austrian Alps, all corroborate a global disaster at the end of the last Long Count cycle and provide possible insight on what may happen at the end of this current Great Cycle.

Full video can be seen in the National Geographic 2012 The Final Prophecy documentary.



Billions of tons of ice would have fallen on the polar regions, flash-freezing everything in little more than an instant.
 
This, at last, would explain the mystery of the mammoths found frozen where they stood. The mammoth, contrary to belief, was not a cold region animal, but one which lived in temperate grasslands.
 
Somehow those temperate regions were frozen in a moment. Some mammoths have been found frozen in the middle of eating! There you are munching away and the next thing you know you’re an ice lolly. If this ionized ice did rain down, the biggest build up would have been nearest to the magnetic poles because they would have had the most powerful attraction. Again, that is the case. The ice mass in the polar regions is greater at the poles than at the periphery and yet there is less snow and rain at the poles to create such a build up.


It is proposed that the carefully documented proofs of the catastrophe actually describe the end of the last Ice Age, which occurred some 3.500 years ago (and not 5.200 years ago).


http://www.immanuelvelikovsky.com/mammoth.pdf (THE EXTINCTION OF THE MAMMOTH)

"The sudden extermination of mammoths was caused by a catastrophe
and probably resulted from asphyxiation or electrocution. The immediately
subsequent movement of the Siberian continent into the polar region is probably
responsible for the preservation of the corpses.

"It appears that the mammoths, along with other animals, were killed by
a tempest of gases accompanied by a spontaneous lack of oxygen caused by fires
raging high in the atmosphere. A few instances later their dying or dead bodies
were moving into the polar circle. In a few hours northeastern America moved
from the frigid zone of the polar circle into a moderate zone; northeastern Siberia
moved in the opposite direction from a moderate zone to the polar circle. The
present cold climate of northern Siberia started when the glacial age in Europe
and America came to a sudden end."

http://asis.com/users/stag/starchiv/transcriptions/ST110Velikovsky.html (exceptionally documented)

The sudden shift in the direction of the axis of Earth would have meant a slowing down of the velocity of the diurnal rotation of the Earth, and there would have no way for the Earth to regain the same velocity of the diurnal rotation as before, after Venus departed to a different orbit.

http://www.world-mysteries.com/sci_2.htm (superb documentation)







Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 02:18:40 PM
First off, there were 10 Plagues, not 12. Second, the dating of the Exodus has always been questionable. Saying it happened during the time of Raameses II is the most popular thing to do, but not necessarily the accurate thing to do. The biblical text does not name the Pharaoh under whom it took place. Since Raameses II was one of the most powerful monarchs ever to sit upon a throne ANYWHERE in the world at anytime in history, I suspect it happened at some different time.

Could a volcano have caused it? I don't see why not. Would that change the traditional dating? Sure. So what? Your point is? God can easily untilise natural events to make supernatural things occur. I see nothing unusual about that. It seems to me that, to paraphrase Shakespeare, "me thinketh that the man doth protest too much". You are grasping at straws. How's that working out for you?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: sandokhan on September 17, 2014, 02:37:08 PM
The quote with the 12 plagues was included just as it appeared in the work cited.

There are no straws here, just a total destruction/demolition of your main argument: that Judaism is the oldest religion.

The proofs coming from the natural sciences are very clear: the stupendous catastrophe which did cause the extinction of the mammoths could not possibly have occurred in a heliocentric system.


Let me put an end to this thread right now.

WHO WROTE THE BIBLE?

Independent but nearly simultaneous proposals by H. B. Witter, Jean Astruc, and Johann Gottfried Eichhorn separated the Pentateuch into two original documentary components, both dating from after the time of Moses. Others hypothesized the presence of two additional sources. The four documents were given working titles: J (Jahwist/Yahwist), E (Elohist), P (Priestly), and D (Deuteronomist). Each was discernible by its own characteristic language, and each, when read in isolation, presented a unified, coherent narrative.

The documentary hypothesis has more recently been refined by later scholars such as Martin Noth (who in 1943 provided evidence that Deuteronomy plus the following six books make a unified history from the hand of a single editor), Harold Bloom, Frank Moore Cross and Richard Elliot Friedman.

1 and 2 Samuel were written BEFORE the priestly version was invented (the priestly version was written according to the official chronology at least 600 - 800 years after the Exodus; this version which consists of, among other numerous passages, the whole book of Leviticus, Exodus chapters 25-32, 35-40, Numbers 3-10, 15-20, 27-30, 35-36, Deuteronomy 18, Joshua 22):

http://www.awitness.org/contrabib/torah/latedate.html (one of the very best)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestly_source

http://islamworld.net/torah.html

http://www.voltairenet.org/article160971.html


Also the book of Judges, chapters 13 and 21 contradict directly the laws/regulations written down in the book of Leviticus.

The author of the books of 1 and 2 Samuel and the book of Judges HAD NO KNOWLEDGE of the laws/regulations in the Leviticus/Numbers/Exodus, as these were created well after the (J) and (E) versions.


http://www.talkreason.org/articles/letter1.cfm (COMPLETE DEMOLITION OF THE EXODUS STORY)


https://web.archive.org/web/20100307232900/http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/biblewho6.htm (tremendous research, one of the very best)

https://web.archive.org/web/20090420173322/http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/biblewho1.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/20111108153953/http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/biblewho3.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/20091116035925/http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/biblewho4.htm




https://web.archive.org/web/20100909121008/http://www.hindurevolution.org/01/monotheismju03.htm (exceptionally documented)

https://web.archive.org/web/20120803000912/http://www.hindurevolution.org/01/monotheismju04.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/20120427132146/http://www.hindurevolution.org/01/monotheismju01.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/20120801224058/http://www.hindurevolution.org/01/monotheismju02.htm


https://web.archive.org/web/20100822060346/http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/biggestsecret/tales_timeloop/tales_timeloop09.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/20100318002654/http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/biggestsecret/biggestsecretbook/biggestsecret04.htm



https://web.archive.org/web/20071025011345/http://www.arts.mcgill.ca/jewish/30yrs/rendsburg/index.html

A third model developed, much more radical in its approach.  The archaeological evidence now was interpreted to demonstrate that the Israelites did not originate outside the land, but were in origin Canaanites who had shifted gears.  Israelite pottery was indistinguishable from Canaanite pottery; Israelite architecture was indistinguishable from Canaanite architecture; Israelite water systems were indistinguishable from Canaanite water systems; and so on. All of this meant that the Israelites were Canaanites.

Bible Unearthed (Finkelstein/Silberman)

The Bible Unearthed begins by considering what it terms the 'preamble' of the bible, the Book of Genesis, and its relationship to archaeological evidence for the context in which its narratives are set. Archaeological discoveries about society and culture in the ancient near east lead the authors to point out a number of anachronisms, suggestive that the narratives were actually set down in the 9th-7th centuries:

   * Aramaeans are frequently mentioned, but no ancient text mentions them until around 1100BCE, and they only begin to dominate Israel's northern borders after the 9th century BCE.
    * The text describes the early origin of the neighbouring kingdom of Edom, but Assyrian records show that Edom only came into existence after the conquest of the region by Assyria; before then it was without functioning kings, wasn't a distinct state, and archaeological evidence shows that the territory was only sparsely populated.
    * The Joseph story refers to camel-based traders carrying gum, balm, and myrrh, an unlikely event for the first millennium, but quite common in the 8th-7th centuries BCE, when Assyrian hegemony enabled this Arabian trade to flourish into a major industry.
    * The land of Goshen has a name that comes from an Arabic group who only dominated the Nile Delta in the 6th and 5th centuries.
    * The Egyptian Pharaoh is portrayed as fearing invasion from the east, even though Egypt's territory stretched to the northern parts of Canaan, with its main threat consequently being from the north, until the 7th century

The book comments that this corresponds with the documentary hypothesis, in which textual scholarship argues for the majority of the first five biblical books being written between the 8th and 6th centuries.

Finkelstein and Silberman argue that instead of the Israelites conquering Canaan after the Exodus (as suggested by the book of Joshua), most of them had in fact always been there; the Israelites were simply Canaanites who developed into a distinct culture.Recent surveys of long-term settlement patterns in the Israelite heartlands show no sign of violent invasion or even peaceful infiltration, but rather a sudden demographic transformation about 1200 BCE in which villages appear in the previously unpopulated highlands;these settlements have a similar appearance to modern Bedouin camps, suggesting that the inhabitants were once pastoral nomads, driven to take up farming by the Late Bronze Age collapse of the Canaanite city-culture.


No historical David/Solomon

http://prophetess.lstc.edu/~rklein/Doc6/dsmyth.htm

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/0160Solomon.php


Next time we meet, we will discuss the extraordinary astronomical proofs which show that the Council of Nicaea could not have taken place before the year 876-877 AD, which destroy your arguments as to the dating of the Exodus.



EDIT


Also, the quote from Jeremiah 7:22 contradicts directly the laws/regulations of the Leviticus. There have been attempts to explain this quote (Jeremiah 7:22 For in the day that I brought your ancestors out of Egypt, I did not speak to them or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices...) within the context of figurative language, an argument which can be contradicted immediately:

https://web.archive.org/web/20090713230842/http://www.awitness.org/lostmess/fprophet.html

http://www.awitness.org/essays/levjer.html
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 02:53:40 PM
You are again assuming that I accept any "modern liberal Biblical scholarship". I do not. Moses wrote the first five books of the Hebrew Bible. Joshua wrote the Sixth. I could go on, and name the writers of each, but I shan't bother. I don't accept the whole concept of three authors writing the Pentateuch. At most, there may have been some embroidering of numbers, and that may actually have been done by Moses himself as part of a Kabbalistic understanding Exodus.

So, you are not going to win here. If I were you, I would stop trying to bother. All you are doing is making yourself look like an ass.

I've studied "modern liberal Biblical scholarship" just as you have. In fact, I probably know more about it than you do, having been educated in a liberal Catholic university, where religion and theology courses were required. I also studied for ministry at one point. So don't try to lecture me about current liberal theology. I already know it better than you do. I simply am not stupid enough to accept it as you do.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: sandokhan on September 17, 2014, 02:56:29 PM
I have already won.

Moses did not write any books, let alone the book of Exodus, please read the very carefully documented proofs.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 02:57:39 PM
I've studied "modern liberal Biblical scholarship" just as you have. In fact, I probably know more about it than you do, having been educated in a liberal Catholic university, where religion and theology courses were required. I also studied for ministry at one point. So don't try to lecture me about current liberal theology. I already know it better than you do. I simply am not stupid enough to accept it as you do.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: sandokhan on September 17, 2014, 03:13:36 PM
The ample proofs presented here do show that you were stupid enough to accept that Moses wrote the book of Exodus.

Do yourself a favor and read this:

http://www.awitness.org/contrabib/torah/latedate.html

Or the extraordinary book, Bible Unearthed, written by Dr. Israel Finkelstein:

http://books.google.ro/books?id=lu6ywyJr0CMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=israel+finkelstein+bible+unearthed&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4DgYVNPGD6viywOQ94HACA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=israel%20finkelstein%20bible%20unearthed&f=false


You might just learn something.





Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 03:37:01 PM
I see no purpose in reviewing stuff that I was forced to swallow in liberal left-wing unversity courses by professors that basically hated white, straight, male, Jewish persons. And ultimately God, of course. I had to read that shit once. I am all too familiar with the J, P, E, D, bullshit, and all the crap about the Bible not being written when tradition says it was, and the Exodus not having occurred, and yada, yada, yada.

My response? Bite me. Hell, I'm even familiar with the claims that Mark wrote his Gospel first, and that Matthew and Luke borrowed from him and some unknown document they call Q (from the German "Quelle" meaning "Source"). Well, of course, this is stupid. No one has ever found this mysterious "Q" document. Now, I am no Christian, but come on! How can you possibly make the claim that the Gospel writers used a source that you don't even know exists! That is just fucktarded!

So, Finkelstein can bite me. So can you, while you're at it. I've read all this shit before. I don't see the need to pollute my brain with further shit.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 17, 2014, 03:46:02 PM
Arguments from Authority and Ad Hominem attacks.  Very convincing arguments, Yaakov, to be certain.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 03:53:18 PM
I see no arguments from authority at all. Ad homs, yes, intended ones. Unless you count tradition as an authority (I'm not so sure I do, at least not a valid one per se). I mean, ok, it has a vote, but not a veto, lets put it that way.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 17, 2014, 03:56:46 PM
I see no arguments from authority at all. Ad homs, yes, intended ones. Unless you count tradition as an authority (I'm not so sure I do, at least not a valid one per se). I mean, ok, it has a vote, but not a veto, lets put it that way.

This argument from authority:

I've studied "modern liberal Biblical scholarship" just as you have. In fact, I probably know more about it than you do, having been educated in a liberal Catholic university, where religion and theology courses were required. I also studied for ministry at one point. So don't try to lecture me about current liberal theology. I already know it better than you do. I simply am not stupid enough to accept it as you do.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 04:03:06 PM
That's not an argument. That is simply a statement of fact. He keeps trying make a "teachable moment" out his blathering, like he's leading me to the Great Well of Enlightenment, or something. Well, the truth is, I've been there, done that, bought the T-shirt, and the hat. I don't need his "teachable moments". I probably DO know more about the subject than he does.

Again, I am not trying to make any arguments with my statement. I am not even trying to say that I can prove that Moses wrote the Torah based on the fact that I know more about "modern liberal Biblical scholarship" than he does. I am simply making the acknowledgement that I do indeed have more knowledge on the subject than he does. Again, there is no argument being offered, but simply a point being made.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 17, 2014, 04:28:49 PM
That's not an argument. That is simply as statement of fact. He keeps trying make a "teachable moment" out his blathering, like he's leading me to the Great Well of Enlightenment, or something. Well, the truth is, I've been there, done that, bought the T-shirt, and the hat. I don't need his "teachable moments". I probably DO know more about the subject than he does.

Again, I am not trying to make any arguments with my statement. I am not even trying to say that I can prove that Moses wrote the Torah based on the fact that I know more about "modern liberal Biblical scholarship" than he does. I am simply making the acknowledgement that I do indeed have more knowledge on the subject than he does. Again, there is no argument being offered, but simply a point being made.

Many arguments take the form of statements of fact, but what matters is the ends to which you made this statement of fact.  Near as I can tell you were stating something akin to the following:

"I have seen it all before, so whatever you are arguing has been considered by me and I deem it wrong."

This interpretation is borne out by you following post:

I see no purpose in reviewing stuff that I was forced to swallow in liberal left-wing unversity courses by professors that basically hated white, straight, male, Jewish persons. And ultimately God, of course. I had to read that shit once. I am all too familiar with the J, P, E, D, bullshit, and all the crap about the Bible not being written when tradition says it was, and the Exodus not having occurred, and yada, yada, yada.

My response? Bite me. Hell, I'm even familiar with the claims that Mark wrote his Gospel first, and that Matthew and Luke borrowed from him and some unknown document they call Q (from the German "Quelle" meaning "Source"). Well, of course, this is stupid. No one has ever found this mysterious "Q" document. Now, I am no Christian, but come on! How can you possibly make the claim that the Gospel writers used a source that you don't even know exists! That is just fucktarded!

So, Finkelstein can bite me. So can you, while you're at it. I've read all this shit before. I don't see the need to pollute my brain with further shit.

Where you do not refute any salient points, but merely discuss how distasteful it was to have to learn about these authors work's.  Again, your argument boils down to, "I have seen it all before (a.k.a. I am an authority) and it is wrong."; which of course is the essence of an argument of authority.  Until you provide some substantial rebuttal, Sandokhan is not worthy of any of the Ad Hominems you are heaping on him.  I never thought I would see the day that I defended Sandokhan, but there is no limit to your troll.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 04:37:36 PM
Well, I'm not claiming to be an authority, because I am not trying to convince him that he is wrong. I am simply trying to tell him that he shouldn't bother trying convince me that I am. Frankly, I don't care what he believes or does not believe. It is of no concern to me. This thread is called "Ask a Jew Anything". The purpose of said thread is for people to come in and ask me what Jews believe about a given thing, or why Jews do or do not do a thing. I am not here to argue whether or or not Judaism is true. I am here to simply present the breadth of Jewish Faith and Practice to the non-Jewish population. If someone has a constructive disagreement, well, that is fine, we can discuss that, but I am in no mood to continually defend my beliefs from someone who doesn't want to learn, but only to tear down.

I don't give a rat's ass what he believes. And I am not trying to make him accept my beliefs. My ad homs are to indicate that I think he is a fucktard, not to make him accept my beliefs. There is a difference there.

So no, I am not attempting to argue a damned thing.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 17, 2014, 04:54:28 PM
Cool story bro.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 04:57:47 PM
Remember what I have said repeatedly on this thread. Jews neither know, nor particularly care, what God has or has not taught non-Jews. We know what God has taught us, and what he expects of us. What lies beyond that is quite beyond our paygrade, and none of our concern.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 17, 2014, 05:01:29 PM
I see no arguments from authority at all. Ad homs, yes, intended ones. Unless you count tradition as an authority (I'm not so sure I do, at least not a valid one per se). I mean, ok, it has a vote, but not a veto, lets put it that way.

This argument from authority:

I've studied "modern liberal Biblical scholarship" just as you have. In fact, I probably know more about it than you do, having been educated in a liberal Catholic university, where religion and theology courses were required. I also studied for ministry at one point. So don't try to lecture me about current liberal theology. I already know it better than you do. I simply am not stupid enough to accept it as you do.
Considering his own ad Hominems he throws about his own professors, im not sure he considers his education valid.  By his own insults, he probably knows only wrong things about the subject.

Jew question: why would a Jew learn christianity from a god hating atheist, then worship in a mosque, then claim to be a Jew?


Remember what I have said repeatedly on this thread. Jews neither know, nor particularly care, what God has or has not taught non-Jews. We know what God has taught us, and what he expects of us. What lies beyond that is quite beyond our paygrade, and none of our concern.
Unlesss its to kill Jews.  Amirite?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 05:15:22 PM
I have studied practically every religion on the planet at one time or other. This involved visiting the mosque for a time. And since I attended a Catholic university, I knew that would involve taking religion courses. Which I wouldn't have minded had they actually taught true Catholic doctrine rather than the liberal bullshit that they actually taught. Fortunately, outside of the Religion Dept, the university in question was an excellent one, and my philosophy major (one of the few universities in the country where the majority of philosophy profs are theists) and my history major were conservative, traditional, and brilliant.

Remember that I was raised completely NON-Observant. I was less Jewish than anybody I ever knew. I began exploring spirituality when I was about 12, but I didn't start with Judaism. I came to my own Faith late. My family did not encourage me to explore Judaism at all. That was a decision I made completely on my own, comparatively recently. In fact, where I lived, there was no synagogue, so I ended up starting my search in churches.

This journey for some Jews is NOT unusual. I always knew my ethnicity was Jewish, but it was essentially in a coma, and I never looked to the religion to succor me, since I lived in a totally non-Jewish environment. Why would I? What was there to appeal to me, until I came into contact with Jews? So it was much later, after exploring Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism that I finally turned  to Judaism.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on September 17, 2014, 05:16:21 PM
I have studied practically every religion on the planet at one time or other.

What do you think about Theistic Satanism?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 05:35:28 PM
Theistic in what sense? In the sense that they actually acknowledge the existence of the Abrahamic God but choose to worship the rebellious angel Satan? Frankly, I think that there have been VERY FEW persons that actually have done this in history. And the few that have have generally had serious psychological and/or psychiatric problems. Most of the people down through history that have been accused of this have been old women that pissed somebody off. On the rare occasions that they have been religious non-conformists, they have usually been Jews or primitive pagans, not Satanists.

And when you do find the very rare real Theistic Satanist, again, they are usually messed up. But as a Jew, I don't acknowledge the existence of a rebellious angel turned Devil. Satan is the Prosecuting Attorney of God's Heavenly Court. Read the Book of Job for more on this. So, since I don't acknowledge the Christian or Muslim Devil, or a place of eternal punishment called Hell, I certainly consider a person who tries to worship such a being to be very messed up indeed.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 17, 2014, 05:42:27 PM
I have studied practically every religion on the planet at one time or other. This involved visiting the mosque for a time. And since I attended a Catholic university, I knew that would involve taking religion courses. Which I wouldn't have minded had they actually taught true Catholic doctrine rather than the liberal bullshit that they actually taught. Fortunately, outside of the Religion Dept, the university in question was an excellent one, and my philosophy major (one of the few universities in the country where the majority of philosophy profs are theists) and my history major were conservative, traditional, and brilliant.

Remember that I was raised completely NON-Observant. I was less Jewish than anybody I ever knew. I began exploring spirituality when I was about 12, but I didn't start with Judaism. I came to my own Faith late. My family did not encourage me to explore Judaism at all. That was a decision I made completely on my own, comparatively recently. In fact, where I lived, there was no synagogue, so I ended up starting my search in churches.

This journey for some Jews is NOT unusual. I always knew my ethnicity was Jewish, but it was essentially in a coma, and I never looked to the religion to succor me, since I lived in a totally non-Jewish environment. Why would I? What was there to appeal to me, until I came into contact with Jews? So it was much later, after exploring Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism that I finally turned  to Judaism.
This explains a few things.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 05:45:46 PM
You are quite welcome.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 17, 2014, 05:52:01 PM
I can't believe I just read a thread and found sandokhan to have a significantly more convincing argument than his opponent. I need to go lie down.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on September 17, 2014, 05:56:12 PM
I can't believe I just read a thread and found sandokhan to have a significantly more convincing argument than his opponent. I need to go lie down.

Of course his argument is more coherent, it's copy-pasted from various places on the web. I would say you're not agreeing with sandokhan, more so that you're agreeing with the various people he has plagiarized.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 06:04:10 PM
As I said to him, it depends on whether or not you accept the claims of modern liberal biblical scholarship. I don't. So none of his arguments affect me in any way. And to give him credit, he didn't plagiarise. He did quote and give credit from where the quotes were derived. Granted, the whole argument was based on those quotes, but still.

But his argument presupposes that his interlocutor is on the same page he is. I am not. I don't except any of the "biblical research" that liberal scholars have made since the middle of about the 19th Century, or at least very little of it. So he can't argue with me on it. There is no hoping to convince me. The whole conversation is pointless.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 17, 2014, 07:13:46 PM
As I said to him, it depends on whether or not you accept the claims of modern liberal biblical scholarship. I don't. So none of his arguments affect me in any way. And to give him credit, he didn't plagiarise. He did quote and give credit from where the quotes were derived. Granted, the whole argument was based on those quotes, but still.

But his argument presupposes that his interlocutor is on the same page he is. I am not. I don't except any of the "biblical research" that liberal scholars have made since the middle of about the 19th Century, or at least very little of it. So he can't argue with me on it. There is no hoping to convince me. The whole conversation is pointless.

(http://mamamarmalade.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/fingers-in-ears.jpg)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 07:25:45 PM
By that I meant my conversation with him. NOT the rest of you.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 08:57:51 PM
VINDICTUS, remember, you are indeed as dumb as you look. Refusing to accept modern day liberal biblical scholarship is simply refusal to be taken in by the claptrap that is put out by man-hating, white-hating, mostly Jew-hating, and straight-bating Left-wing batch of morons who call themselves intellectuals.

Anyone who is stupid enough, again to use a Christian example, to accept that Matthew and Luke used Mark and a hypothetical "Q" document to write their own books, even though the "Q" document has NEVER been found, and no one has any clear idea what may have been in it, shouldn't be allowed out in public.

So, anyone who rejects the traditional Mosaic authorship of the Torah without extraordinary good reason (which these "scholars" have been unable to provide) should also not be allowed in public.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 17, 2014, 09:06:33 PM
VINDICTUS, remember, you are indeed as dumb as you look. Refusing to accept modern day liberal biblical scholarship is simply refusal to be taken in by the claptrap that is put out by man-hating, white-hating, mostly Jew-hating, and straight-bating Left-wing batch of morons who call themselves intellectuals.

Anyone who is stupid enough, again to use a Christian example, to accept that Matthew and Luke used Mark and a hypothetical "Q" document to write their own books, even though the "Q" document has NEVER been found, and no one has any clear idea what may have been in it, shouldn't be allowed out in public.

So, anyone who rejects the traditional Mosaic authorship of the Torah without extraordinary good reason (which these "scholars" have been unable to provide) should also not be allowed in public.

You can't just go and say "I don't accept that entire branch of research, because the people in charge of it are jerks. Therefore, it doesn't matter how much evidence you provide." That's not how logical arguments work. In fact, it's about five different logical fallacies rolled into one.

Please provide evidence that biblical scholarship is
Quote
claptrap that is put out by man-hating, white-hating, mostly Jew-hating, and straight-bating Left-wing batch of morons who call themselves intellectuals.
and, more importantly, that it is inaccurate. Or, just say that you don't especially care what the reality of the situation is because you prefer your version of events. Either of those is fine, but don't say the second and pretend you mean the first.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 09:14:43 PM
QUOTE: "Anyone who is stupid enough, again to use a Christian example, to accept that Matthew and Luke used Mark and a hypothetical "Q" document to write their own books, even though the "Q" document has NEVER been found, and no one has any clear idea what may have been in it, shouldn't be allowed out in public."

That is a perfect example of the "scholarship" I am talking about.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 17, 2014, 09:18:23 PM
QUOTE: "Anyone who is stupid enough, again to use a Christian example, to accept that Matthew and Luke used Mark and a hypothetical "Q" document to write their own books, even though the "Q" document has NEVER been found, and no one has any clear idea what may have been in it, shouldn't be allowed out in public."

That is a perfect example of the "scholarship" I am talking about.

You sound a lot more biased than you do logical
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 09:47:29 PM
Lets be honest. In what universe is an argument like that logical? If a court of law were trying to figure out how two different people wrote their books, any books, not necessarily the Gospels, and I as an attorney were to say to the Judge, "Sir, they used a third book that we have, and then a fourth document that no one has ever found. But we know it must exist.", how far do you think I'd get? Seriously.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 17, 2014, 10:49:46 PM
Lets be honest. In what universe is an argument like that logical? If a court of law were trying to figure out how two different people wrote their books, any books, not necessarily the Gospels, and I as an attorney were to say to the Judge, "Sir, they used a third book that we have, and then a fourth document that no one has ever found. But we know it must exist.", how far do you think I'd get? Seriously.

It's very much like the Chinese Civilisation, where the first three dynasties were determined to be mythical, now the third of those has been proven historical through archaeological and historical research. I expect the first two will as well.



Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 11:39:44 PM
Actually, no, the comparison fails. its one thing to HAVE SOMETHING in your hand. A tradition, a long-standing idea, that people have believed, at that has been the basis of your civilisation. Then history comes along and says, "guess what? You were right for the last 2000 years." Its another thing to totally invent shit up out of whole cloth to try to explain your shoddy "scholarship" and your incompetence.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 18, 2014, 12:03:47 AM
Actually, no, the comparison fails. its one thing to HAVE SOMETHING in your hand. A tradition, a long-standing idea, that people have believed, at that has been the basis of your civilisation. Then history comes along and says, "guess what? You were right for the last 2000 years." Its another thing to totally invent shit up out of whole cloth to try to explain your shoddy "scholarship" and your incompetence.

Just as easily as a lie can be perpetrated for 2,000 years, so too can a truth be hidden for 2,000 years.

Greek and Egyptian Mythology was considered factual religion and lasted for quite some time.  It was never proven false yet we think of it as such.  Do you know why?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 18, 2014, 12:04:53 AM
You have not shown any shoddy scholarship. Just an idea you disagree with.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 12:42:00 AM
Notice, I have never denied that certain aspects of Greek mythology were true. Remember Heinrich Schliemann. I don't know enough about the Egyptian stuff, although if the Bible is any witness, the God of Israel was doing what he did for several purposes, one of which was to show the weaknesses of Egyptian religion. But I can't pass judgement on it myself. Obviously a lot of it was fantastical, like gods with the head of a falcon, or that of a cat,or what-have-you. This is the kind of thing Erich von Daniken believes in, but not me.

Their scholarship is shoddy because they had bubkis, and they pulled "Q" out of their arse. When they were asked to explain what it was, they said "it must have been some collection of the sayings of Jesus". Where did they come to that conclusion? Moses, when he wrote the Exodus, had participated in the events he describes. Why the 2 million figure instead of a more believable smaller figure? I don't know, although I suspect there may be Kabbalistic meaning, or we all may be full of it, and reading badly garbled texts. The Masoretic Text is said to be the best we have, and that's what we all use. But is it possible, that however well preserved, somebody got numbers wrong? That Numbers recorded 600,00 men over the age of 20 when it should have said 60,000? Now, I am NOT making that claim. I just pulled that number out of MY arse to make a point. Or maybe there was a point to make using gematria (the art of using Hebrew letters to write numbers, each letter representing a number, much like Roman letters).

Now, PLEASE note, I am NOT claiming to know the answer. I am merely claiming that the Exodus occurred, and we will one day find evidence of that. Whether it involved 2 million persons or 60,000 persons, or 600,000 military age men, or 60,000 military age men (which is quite different than 60,000 persons total), I don't know. I have recently heard a claim for 60,000 total. But I don't remember where, and its not really important. Again, I merely claim, the Exodus occurred, and we will find proof of that eventually, just as Schliemann did with Troy.

On the other hand, good luck finding proof of a "Q", which NO ONE ever talked about until somebody invented the idea in their pea-brain in the 19th Century to explain how Mark came to be written first (which is crap; I expect the Catholic Church is right when they say that Matthew was first, and possibly originally in Hebrew, although the oldest copies that Christians possess are in Greek).

All it does is complicate matters to try to explain that Mark wrote first and that Matthew and Luke then plagiarised from not one, but TWO sources, one of which nobody has even heard of until the 19th fucking century, and even then, only in theory! You have to go back to Ockham's Razor. The simplest answer is the true one.

In both the Exodus AND in the question of the writing of the Gospel, Ockham's Razor can be applied. In the case of Exodus, our Forefathers 3500 years ago bound our culture together by the celebration of the Passover. Even the Christians celebrate the Sacrifice of the Paschal Lamb (Jesus). Easter would have no meaning if it weren't for the background of the Passover, the passing from bondage to freedom. Even the Muslims in the Qur'an acknowledge that it happened. They tell the story a bit differently, and inaccurately, but they do tell it.

Now, I won't convince you, and that's fine. I don't care at this point. Obviously it is much easier to apply Ockham's Razor to the Gospel. Which is easier to believe? That Matthew wrote first, or that Mark wrote first, and that Matthew and Luke borrowed from him and a document that some guy just made up in his head because no one has ever seen the damned thing?

Well, I've prattled on enough. Time to wait for responses. Enjoy.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spoon on September 18, 2014, 12:43:54 AM
Do you subscribe to the book of Genesis? There's some fucked up stuff in there that makes the God of Abraham's creation story seem on par with Greek/Norse/Roman mythology.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 12:59:49 AM
I believe the first 11 chapters of Genesis to be indecipherable. I do think there was a Flood, if for no other reason then that most major cultures in the world have a Flood story. As for the Creation, I'm not sure what I think about that. The talking Serpent and all that. I certainly do think that God can permit a serpent to talk if that is what he wishes to do. And in the Garden, perhaps ALL the animals talked. I don't know. Unfortunately, the Book of Genesis doesn't give us a lot of information. However, I can say that with the Sun and the Moon not having been created until the Fourth Day, you have to take at least the first three days as not necessarily being 24 hours in duration. They could have been whole eons of time for all I know.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 18, 2014, 01:49:55 AM
Quote
Now, PLEASE note, I am NOT claiming to know the answer. I am merely claiming that the Exodus occurred

This would seem to be a great big contradiction.

Quote
On the other hand, good luck finding proof of a "Q", which NO ONE ever talked about until somebody invented the idea in their pea-brain in the 19th Century to explain how Mark came to be written first (which is crap; I expect the Catholic Church is right when they say that Matthew was first, and possibly originally in Hebrew, although the oldest copies that Christians possess are in Greek).
No one talked about Germs until the 19th century either.  Just saying...

Quote
You have to go back to Ockham's Razor. The simplest answer is the true one.
Ok.
The simplest answer is that, aside from a few historical bits, most of it is fake.  Done. 


Quote
They tell the story a bit differently, and inaccurately, ...
Citation needed. 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spoon on September 18, 2014, 03:13:55 AM
I believe the first 11 chapters of Genesis to be indecipherable. I do think there was a Flood, if for no other reason then that most major cultures in the world have a Flood story. As for the Creation, I'm not sure what I think about that. The talking Serpent and all that. I certainly do think that God can permit a serpent to talk if that is what he wishes to do. And in the Garden, perhaps ALL the animals talked. I don't know. Unfortunately, the Book of Genesis doesn't give us a lot of information. However, I can say that with the Sun and the Moon not having been created until the Fourth Day, you have to take at least the first three days as not necessarily being 24 hours in duration. They could have been whole eons of time for all I know.

I'm talking more about the sons of god taking human mistresses and the resulting demigod offspring (chapter 6), the Nephilim (chapter 6), the whole deal where Noah got drunk and got raped/seen(?) by Ham, resulting in Noah cursing Canaan and his descendants (chapter 9), and God's apparent ignorance, limited power etc. seen throughout Genesis. I am reading a translation said to be most true to the original Hebrew, and it reads just like any other creation myth; flawed gods, fantastic creatures, unanswered questions.

You can't just discredit the first 11 chapters of Genesis either. It is referenced constantly throughout the rest of the old testament.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 06:24:48 AM
Ah. Thank you for clarifying. I don't know what translation you're using, but the Hebrew does NOT imply that Ham raped Noah, but that he saw him & shamed him. Re: the 'sons of god', the most recent Jewish translation goes w/ 'divine beings', the meaning being unclear. They may be referring to Djinn, which have free will, rather than Angels, which do not. But certainly Djinn could produce Nephilim w/ human girls. I see no problem w/ this. As for God being limited, I'm not so sure. That may have simply been his way of sparing us from things beyond our comprehension, or better yet, the other way round. He knew we could take it then, so he gifted us w/ his Presence in ways he would never do now, as now, we'd never get it!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 18, 2014, 01:11:44 PM
What's your opinion on Lot and his daughters? Is there a Jewish interpretation of that passage that isn't completely fucked up?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 01:51:57 PM
The story of Lot (note that in Hebrew this name is pronounced with a long "o" sound rather than a short one) and his daughters is found in Genesis 19:30-38. Obviously, as you said, it seems pretty fucked up. The most flattering explanation that I have heard given of it is that, after the destruction of the Cities on the Plain (of which there were five; the Bible describes the destruction of two of them, namely Sodom and Gomorrah, but two more were also eliminated, Zoar alone being spared), Lot's daughters believed that entire human race had been wiped out.

If you read the text closely, it says, starting with verse 31: "And the first-born said unto the younger: 'Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth.'"[/u]emphasis mine. The point that was made when we talked about it was that Lot's daughters believed that all human life EVERYWHERE had been wiped off the face of the earth. They believed that they and their father were it, and that it was up to them to repopulate the planet. So THAT is why they committed incest with their father, not because they particularly wanted to. I have read further about what caused the destruction of the Cities on the Plain, and some have theorised that it might have been a nuclear explosion. It certainly is possible. God has certainly been known to be behind some pretty crazy shit back in the day, and if you believe that God allowed Oppenheimer to create the thing that wiped out two Japanese cities, well, why couldn't he have sent angels to do the same thing  back then? 

But, to answer your question, yes, it is nasty that the girls did the wham, bam thank you Ma'am with their Dad. I can't think of a single Jew today who wouldn't agree with me. There are probably all kinds of explanations for it, and I don't have my books out to look up those explanations, as they are still packed from moving (I hope that changes in the next few days, but with a sick wife, I don't want to go banging about). But we had a discussion about this in Shul awhile back, and this was what we discussed, was the idea that the girls thought that they and their Dad were the only three people left on Earth. And who wouldn't after a nuclear explosion destroys five whole cities. I suppose, if you believe its your responsibility to recreate the race, you might consider doing it with Dad after all. I don't know. Sounds a bit odd to me, too. Does that help?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Thork on September 18, 2014, 03:30:41 PM
I have read further about what caused the destruction of the Cities on the Plain, and some have theorised that it might have been a nuclear explosion. It certainly is possible. God has certainly been known to be behind some pretty crazy shit back in the day, and if you believe that God allowed Oppenheimer to create the thing that wiped out two Japanese cities, well, why couldn't he have sent angels to do the same thing  back then? 
That is probably he most retarted thing you have come out with. Nuclear explosion? Why would angels build a nuclear bomb? First, they have divine power and blow away a city with a fart and a naked flame. Second, if they have to observe physics, why would they pick a 20th century dirty weapon? Why not a 50th century one that is more precise and has no fall out?

It is disputed that the cities ever existed at all, but if they did and I had to opt for desrucion, I'd pick volcano or earthquake. Probably volcano as fire and brimstone is mentioned and Lot's wife is turned to stone (covered in ash/pumice)

My opinion is that Lot took his daughters and then blamed them. From that perspective the story starts to make a whole lot more sense.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 03:38:53 PM
THORK, first, I strongly recommend that you make use of the spell-check device on this system. "Retarted" is not a word. Nor did I say that Angels built a nuclear bomb. I said they caused a nuclear explosion. That's quite different, although the damage done is the same. And the only people that dispute whether the Cities on the Plain ever existed or not are "modern day liberal scholars" whose "scholarship" is entirely shoddy, and not worth the paper it is printed on IMHO.

And your opinion has not been asked for. Frankly, I could give a rat's ass what your opinion is. TAUSAMI asked for a Jewish response to the biblical story, and I gave him one. I could give a flying fuck about your interpretation.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Thork on September 18, 2014, 04:19:38 PM
THORK, first, I strongly recommend that you make use of the spell-check device on this system. "Retarted" is not a word.
One day, when you lrn2internet, you will read this back and feel silly.

Nor did I say that Angels built a nuclear bomb. I said they caused a nuclear explosion.
That is one hell of an interpretation. I mean you are literally reading one thing, and coming to the conclusion of another. This is how sneaky Jews have used religion for war for thousands of years. It does not say anything about nuclear explosions in the Bible or any other religious text. Stop being a retart.

IMHO.
Which at this stage isn't worth very much.

And your opinion has not been asked for. Frankly, I could give a rat's ass what your opinion is. TAUSAMI asked for a Jewish response to the biblical story, and I gave him one. I could give a flying fuck about your interpretation.
This isn't your forum and I can give an opinion on anything I so choose. Its likely to be backed with a little more education than yours.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 04:26:07 PM
Someone who can't even spell "retard" correctly is not likely to have an advanced degree. I do. Notice also, fucktard, I did not say whether I thought it was a nuclear explosion. I said some scholars have interpreted it as such. Remember, you are a fucktard. You can give your opinion, but be advised that nobody cares. One, you are not a Jew, so you know nothing about the Jewish response, which is the purpose of this thread. Two, you are stupid enough to believe the Earth is flat. That automatically indicates that you have no advanced education, or, if you do, that you are what we here in Iowa call an educated idiot.

So, I call bullshit on you claiming any kind of an education. I think you are full of it. You do know how to  make up a good story, though. Keep at it, old boy. I'm sure you can fool at least a few people.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on September 18, 2014, 05:09:46 PM
Someone who can't even spell "retard" correctly is not likely to have an advanced degree. I do.
Apparently they didn't teach you about memes when you earned your advanced degree.  I'd ask for a refund.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 05:12:55 PM
I'd understand if he only misspelled it once. But he spells it incorrectly every time he uses the word. And I do know what a meme is in the Dawkins sense of the word. And its kind of a stupid idea, really.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 18, 2014, 05:18:48 PM
Someone who can't even spell "retard" correctly is not likely to have an advanced degree. I do. Notice also, fucktard, I did not say whether I thought it was a nuclear explosion. I said some scholars have interpreted it as such. Remember, you are a fucktard. You can give your opinion, but be advised that nobody cares. One, you are not a Jew, so you know nothing about the Jewish response, which is the purpose of this thread. Two, you are stupid enough to believe the Earth is flat. That automatically indicates that you have no advanced education, or, if you do, that you are what we here in Iowa call an educated idiot.

So, I call bullshit on you claiming any kind of an education. I think you are full of it. You do know how to  make up a good story, though. Keep at it, old boy. I'm sure you can fool at least a few people.

You think angel's caused a nuclear explosion and you are condescending about education levels.  Sounds legit.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 05:21:03 PM
I didn't say angels did anything. I am saying that the Four Cities on the Plain may have been destroyed by means of a nuclear explosion. How that may have occurred is not my province to explain. I am only telling you what some scholars have suggested.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Thork on September 18, 2014, 05:28:24 PM
I am saying that the Four Cities on the Plain may have been destroyed by means of a nuclear explosion.
There were 5 cities. Sodom and Gomorrah were allied with the cities of Admah, Zeboim and Bela. Also angels don't use nukes, Fucktart.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 18, 2014, 05:37:46 PM
I didn't say angels did anything. I am saying that the Four Cities on the Plain may have been destroyed by means of a nuclear explosion. How that may have occurred is not my province to explain. I am only telling you what some scholars have suggested.

Now who is retarted:

Nor did I say that Angels built a nuclear bomb. I said [angels] caused a nuclear explosion.

You will note that quote clearly state that angels caused a nuclear explosion.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 18, 2014, 05:38:16 PM
I'd understand if he only misspelled it once. But he spells it incorrectly every time he uses the word. And I do know what a meme is in the Dawkins sense of the word. And its kind of a stupid idea, really.

So you don't know what an internet meme is.  Got it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Thork on September 18, 2014, 05:49:03 PM
Forget it. He has logged off to count his money.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 05:58:24 PM
There were five cities. Only four were destroyed. Thork, at least read the book first. With your limited intelligence, I realise that may be difficult for you. I know you are barely literate, given that you can't spell the word "retard", but come on now.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Thork on September 18, 2014, 06:02:09 PM
There were five cities. Only four were destroyed.
So how are the two daughters able to claim that there were no men left on earth? There is another city full of men, left intact.

Maybe all 5 were destroyed, and you are wrong?
Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodom_and_Gomorrah#Deuterocanonical_references
Wisdom 10:6 refers to Five Cities, including Sodom, or Pentapolis: "Wisdom rescued a righteous man when the ungodly were perishing; he escaped the fire that descended on the Five Cities."
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 06:05:52 PM
That is actually a good question. According to the talk I've followed, and the reading I've done, the girls thought that Zoar was going to be next on the list for God's wrath. The idea was that Lot got out of the city (really, a town; it was smaller than the other four) because he was afraid to stay there. And the girls, once they had left the town, found NO men or, for that matter, humans at all.  Mind you, I am not defending what they did. I am merely explaining their rationale. By no means do I mean to express approval.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on September 18, 2014, 06:11:53 PM
I'd understand if he only misspelled it once. But he spells it incorrectly every time he uses the word. And I do know what a meme is in the Dawkins sense of the word. And its kind of a stupid idea, really.


If you seriously aren't understanding this, I recommend doing a forum search for the world 'retarted'. And maybe a google search for the word 'meme'.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 06:20:05 PM
So there's 26 references to people who can't spell the word "retarded" correctly. That is ridiculous. Meanwhile, a meme is defined as the following:

QUOTE: "A meme (/ˈmiːm/ meem)[1] is "an idea, behavior, or style that spreads from person to person within a culture."[2]" (Wikipedia).

I don't see the point.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on September 18, 2014, 06:22:59 PM
So there's 26 references to people who can't spell the word "retarded" correctly. That is ridiculous. Meanwhile, a meme is defined as the following:

QUOTE: "A meme (/ˈmiːm/ meem)[1] is "an idea, behavior, or style that spreads from person to person within a culture."[2]" (Wikipedia).

I don't see the point.

your retarted
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 06:32:13 PM
I am going to sign off for a bit. I've been on this thing for a long time. I think I shall go read a book or something. I'll be back later, and respond to any further questions then. Ciao for now!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Thork on September 18, 2014, 06:45:28 PM
He's gone to count money.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 18, 2014, 07:07:15 PM
Just because it is too painful to watch Yaakov stumble through this anymore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_meme

Quote
An Internet meme (/ˈmiːm/ MEEM) is an activity, concept, catchphrase or piece of media which spreads, often as mimicry, from person to person via the Internet.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 18, 2014, 07:58:05 PM
He's gone to count money.

I wonder if he yells at Muslims IRL as well.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 30, 2014, 12:23:34 AM
Do you let other men shake your wife's hand?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 30, 2014, 01:58:01 AM
That's the first time I've gotten that question. The answer is, yes. She is a non-Jew, and I don't force her to comport herself with Jewish manners. As long as she comports herself with the proper conservativism of a non-Jew, I can live with that. I myself do not shake other women's hands, unless I am forced into it in some way (ie, if it would appear grossly rude to refuse). Generally, I try to put myself in a physical stance such that I can hold my hands behind my back and when the hand comes out, and I can kindly explain that it is my custom not to shake hands with women outside the family. With Jewish women, this is not a problem, even if they are the liberal type. With non-Jewish women, this may or may not be possible. It depends on the situation.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on September 30, 2014, 06:21:37 AM
Do you wear a Kippah?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 30, 2014, 11:23:12 AM
Yes, I do.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on September 30, 2014, 01:10:04 PM
I've been wondering how they are kept in place. They look like they could fall off at any moment.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 30, 2014, 01:33:39 PM
I use hair clips. Some people use barrettes. A bald person can use double sided tape that is made for the skin.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 30, 2014, 01:43:23 PM
That's the first time I've gotten that question. The answer is, yes. She is a non-Jew, and I don't force her to comport herself with Jewish manners. As long as she comports herself with the proper conservativism of a non-Jew, I can live with that. I myself do not shake other women's hands, unless I am forced into it in some way (ie, if it would appear grossly rude to refuse). Generally, I try to put myself in a physical stance such that I can hold my hands behind my back and when the hand comes out, and I can kindly explain that it is my custom not to shake hands with women outside the family. With Jewish women, this is not a problem, even if they are the liberal type. With non-Jewish women, this may or may not be possible. It depends on the situation.

Doesn't this strike you as immature?  Or do you feel you have no control over your sexual urges?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 30, 2014, 02:11:25 PM
Its not a question of maturity at all. Its a question of what's appropriate or not. It is not appropriate to touch women that are outside one's family (ie, not one's wife, mother, sister, or other immediate family relative). Gentiles have similar rules, they just don't extend them as far as we do. For example, you would not want your wife to show affection to another man in certain ways. We simply take the thing a little further. Notice that when Jews lived among Jews we had fewer incidences of men and women cheating on their spouses (at least, reported incidences), and fewer divorces, and definitely lower ratings of alcoholism than the general population. Now that we live with non-Jews, our alcoholism rate is only slightly lower than the general population.

The rules are good for all concerned. They reduce the risk of misunderstanding between two people that can result in incredible pain and sorrow to three or even four people. It is unwise to change things without EXTREMELY good reason to do so.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 30, 2014, 02:32:33 PM
Its not a question of maturity at all. Its a question of what's appropriate or not. It is not appropriate to touch women that are outside one's family (ie, not one's wife, mother, sister, or other immediate family relative). Gentiles have similar rules, they just don't extend them as far as we do. For example, you would not want your wife to show affection to another man in certain ways. We simply take the thing a little further. Notice that when Jews lived among Jews we had fewer incidences of men and women cheating on their spouses (at least, reported incidences), and fewer divorces, and definitely lower ratings of alcoholism than the general population. Now that we live with non-Jews, our alcoholism rate is only slightly lower than the general population.

Do you have a citation for your rates of divorce and alcoholism?  How are you causally linking divorce rates to hand-shaking?

Quote
The rules are good for all concerned. They reduce the risk of misunderstanding between two people that can result in incredible pain and sorrow to three or even four people. It is unwise to change things without EXTREMELY good reason to do so.


This is a general ethical choice and I think you would be hard pressed to show it as empirical fact.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 30, 2014, 02:51:41 PM
I don't have any citations. That' something I've always heard older Jews state, particularly the ones that lived through the Holocaust, and previously lived in Shtetls. The casual link between hand-shaking and divorce is simply saying that a handshake CAN become (not necessarily WILL become) something more than that.

You are right. It is an ethical choice. Is there an empirical fact outcome? Perhaps none that I personally can prove, since I am not a statistician. I'm sure someone could look at the date and come up with proof one way or the other.

But ultimately, why don't we touch our neighbour's wife? Because the Torah has been interpreted as telling us not to. I can't recall if its in the text itself, or if one has to go to the Talmud to find it. But the Torah of God has been interpreted as requiring very strict rules about our consideration of the other sex. Since not touching one's wife during her menses is in Torah, I expect the rest of it is too. I would look the matter up now, but I am in a bit of a hurry.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on September 30, 2014, 04:39:17 PM
Does this apply to gay Jews?
What about women?  Can they touch men who are not their family?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 30, 2014, 05:16:05 PM
I don't have any citations. That' something I've always heard older Jews state, particularly the ones that lived through the Holocaust, and previously lived in Shtetls. The casual link between hand-shaking and divorce is simply saying that a handshake CAN become (not necessarily WILL become) something more than that.

You are right. It is an ethical choice. Is there an empirical fact outcome? Perhaps none that I personally can prove, since I am not a statistician. I'm sure someone could look at the date and come up with proof one way or the other.

But ultimately, why don't we touch our neighbour's wife? Because the Torah has been interpreted as telling us not to. I can't recall if its in the text itself, or if one has to go to the Talmud to find it. But the Torah of God has been interpreted as requiring very strict rules about our consideration of the other sex. Since not touching one's wife during her menses is in Torah, I expect the rest of it is too. I would look the matter up now, but I am in a bit of a hurry.

From what I saw, the prohibition on familar touching of those outside your family is in Leviticus.

This whole thing just smacks of the kind of irrationality that plagues the religious.  Once again, you have decided that one law in the Torah (no familiar touching of those outside your family) should still apply, but others should not (Execution for breaking the Sabbath), with no particularly good criteria.  They are all in the Torah, why dont you follow them all?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 30, 2014, 06:57:22 PM
Well, to be blunt, if you violate the Sabbath in some parts of the world (say, KJ), the only reason they WON'T execute you is because they don't have the authority to do so. If they could, I expect they probably would.

Israel is governed largely by secular Jews who don't even worry about touching across gender lines, let alone other violations of the  Torah. So that's not relevant.

I would strongly advise you, if you are ever in KJ, or any place like it (there are several such communities in the USA, and quite a few in Israel), DON'T go and break the rules of Torah. You will be ridden out of town on a rail at the very least, and possibly worse. For example, show up to KJ some time, ladies, wearing daisey dukes and a halter-top and start wandering around. I can pretty much assure you that within about five or ten minutes, you WILL get stones thrown at you until you either one, leave, or two, are seriously injured or killed. And no, don't expect some "good Samaritan" to call the outside authorities to help you. Won't happen. The same is true for men who misbehave or get into mischief.

So, remember. Just because the Jews you SEE don't kill each other for violating Sabbath doesn't mean it couldn't happen. It just means that the Jews you see in the public eye are the liberal Jews or the non-religious Jews. The same Jews that touch each other outside the family are the ones who don't worry about violating the sabbath. The ones who won't touch each other are the same who would not violate the Sabbath, and so would do fine in some place like KJ.

And as men are to women, so women are to men. The restrictions are the same. Gay Jews are not contemplated in this scheme of things, obviously. When the text was written, no one really gave that much thought, I don't suppose. At the time, homosexuality was understood to be forbidden outright under penalty of death. As we've come to differently understand human sexualities, I am not sure what that may or may not do to the traditional standards. Probably nothing. Since the majority of men are straight, as are the majority of women, I expect that there won't be much change in the question of who may touch whom, especially since the Bible has spoken clearly on the matter. The Bible never spoke clearly on the matter of homosexuality. But on the matter of who can touch whom, it does.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 30, 2014, 06:58:57 PM
Well, to be blunt, if you violate the Sabbath in some parts of the world (say, KJ), the only reason they WON'T execute you is because they don't have the authority to do so. If they could, I expect they probably would.

Israel is governed largely by secular Jews who don't even worry about touching across gender lines, let alone other violations of the  Torah. So that's not relevant.

I would strongly advise you, if you are ever in KJ, or any place like it (there are several such communities in the USA, and quite a few in Israel), DON'T go and break the rules of Torah. You will be ridden out of town on a rail at the very least, and possibly worse. For example, show up to KJ some time, ladies, wearing daisey dukes and a halter-top and start wandering around. I can pretty much assure you that within about five or ten minutes, you WILL get stones thrown at you until you either one, leave, or two, are seriously injured or killed. And no, don't expect some "good Samaritan" to call the outside authorities to help you. Won't happen. The same is true for men who misbehave or get into mischief.

So, remember. Just because the Jews you SEE don't kill each other for violating Sabbath doesn't mean it couldn't happen. It just means that the Jews you see in the public eye are the liberal Jews or the non-religious Jews. The same Jews that touch each other outside the family are the ones who don't worry about violating the sabbath. The ones who won't touch each other are the same who would not violate the Sabbath, and so would do fine in some place like KJ.

And as men are to women, so women are to men. The restrictions are to men. Gay Jews are not contemplated in this scheme of things, obviously. When the text was written, no one really gave that much thought, I don't suppose. At the time, homosexuality was understood to be forbidden outright under penalty of death. As we've come to differently understand human sexualities, I am not sure what that may or may not do to the traditional standards. Probably nothing. Since the majority of men are straight, as are the majority of women, I expect that there won't be much change in the question of who may touch whom, especially since the Bible has spoken clearly on the matter. The Bible never spoke clearly on the matter of homosexuality. But on the matter of who can touch whom, it does.

How is this not completely barbaric?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 30, 2014, 07:02:43 PM
Please note the revision in my last paragraph. And no, it is not barbaric at all. It is a way of governing people, and keeping the passions from ruling. What's more, it seems to have worked for 4500 years.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on September 30, 2014, 07:03:02 PM
And Jews think themselves better than Muslims...
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 30, 2014, 07:05:56 PM
The difference is that we don't want to impose our beliefs on non-Jews. The Muslims do.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: EnigmaZV on September 30, 2014, 07:38:00 PM
The difference is that we don't want to impose our beliefs on non-Jews. The Muslims do.

Well, to be blunt, if you violate the Sabbath in some parts of the world (say, KJ), the only reason they WON'T execute you is because they don't have the authority to do so. If they could, I expect they probably would.

How do you reconcile these two statements?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 30, 2014, 07:41:02 PM
Annnd Yaakov just explained how some Jews are just as bad as some Muslims. Oy vey!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on September 30, 2014, 07:43:49 PM
What is KJ?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 30, 2014, 08:09:46 PM
KJ is Kiryas Joel, a town in New York that is 99% Jewish, nearly all of the Satmar Hasidic group, that essentially dominates everything to do with the town . And I reconcile the statements by saying that the people of KJ aren't seeking to make non-Jews live there. Yes, they are a bit nasty toward their neighbours, and they do want to expand, but not so as to acquire the land and property in which non-Jews are now living. Rather, they want to acquire what is now empty land and then build on it to allow their ever growing population room to expand.

But yes, if you are stupid enough to go into an area that is predominantly Jewish, and attempt to impose your beliefs on the native population, then you deserve whatever happens to you, including stoning, frankly. I have no problem if the people in KJ want to stone the hypothetical girl wearing Daisy Dukes in the middle of town.

In fact, I wouldn't even object to Muslims in London feeling the same way, except for one minor difference. They took over a portion of the main city that people have to travel through. Nobody HAS to travel to or through KJ. It is easily avoidable. Plus, I'm not worried about the people of KJ being good citizens. They don't feel the need to blow shit up. The Muslims do. But if the Muslims wanted to be left alone and follow their own unusual customs, it wouldn't bother me at all as such. I just don't trust the bastards.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 30, 2014, 08:17:17 PM
KJ is Kiryas Joel, a town in New York that is 99% Jewish, nearly all of the Satmar Hasidic group, that essentially dominates everything to do with the town . And I reconcile the statements by saying that the people of KJ aren't seeking to make non-Jews live there. Yes, they are a bit nasty toward their neighbours, and they do want to expand, but not so as to acquire the land and property in which non-Jews are now living. Rather, they want to acquire what is now empty land and then build on it to allow their ever growing population room to expand.

But yes, if you are stupid enough to go into an area that is predominantly Jewish, and attempt to impose your beliefs on the native population, then you deserve whatever happens to you, including stoning, frankly. I have no problem if the people in KJ want to stone the hypothetical girl wearing Daisy Dukes in the middle of town.

In fact, I wouldn't even object to Muslims in London feeling the same way, except for one minor difference. They took over a portion of the main city that people have to travel through. Nobody HAS to travel to or through KJ. It is easily avoidable. Plus, I'm not worried about the people of KJ being good citizens. They don't feel the need to blow shit up. The Muslims do. But if the Muslims wanted to be left alone and follow their own unusual customs, it wouldn't bother me at all as such. I just don't trust the bastards.

They are not native to KJ and they are governed by the laws of the USA.  Why dont they have to follow them?  Throwing a rock at someone for not following their religious belief is utterly illegal, immoral and unconstitutional.  They should be deported and if they don't want to leave, they should be shot. (Sound familiar?)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 30, 2014, 08:22:54 PM
Actually, they are native to Kiryas Joel. It was founded in 1979, and that is when the Grand Rabbi (who selected the location for it) and the families that initiated the profect moved there after the land was bought. You can't be more native than that.

Throwing said rock is certainly not immoral to the person throwing it. It is not in the constitution one way or the other. Whether its illegal or not may or may not depend on whether you're standing inside KJ or not.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 30, 2014, 08:39:55 PM
Actually, they are native to Kiryas Joel. It was founded in 1979, and that is when the Grand Rabbi (who selected the location for it) and the families that initiated the profect moved there after the land was bought. You can't be more native than that.

They are in New York right and subject to the laws of that state and the USA?

Quote
Throwing said rock is certainly not immoral to the person throwing it.
  So what?  The law is an unreasonable infringement on someone's right to life.  There are very few acts that could be considered so obviously immoral as throwing a rock at someone for not conforming to their beliefs.  This is getting more barbaric by the minute.

Quote
It is not in the constitution one way or the other.

You are not allowed to make unreasonable restrictions on people's freedom of religion in the States.  I guarantee you, not a judge in the country would find that it is a reasonable restriction to pelt someone with rocks.

Quote
Whether its illegal or not may or may not depend on whether you're standing inside KJ or not.

Nope.  Criminal activity is governed by the State legislature.  What are you smoking man?

Interesting to read that there have been a number of cases brought against KJ for impinging constitutional rights, all of which they have lost, and there is currently a case to dissolve the municipality on the grounds that it is a corrupt theocracy in practice.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 30, 2014, 08:56:26 PM
Actually, I tend to agree more than disagree, but that has been their position, and they may have lost all the court cases, but they continue to exist. I suspect probably for several reasons:

1. They probably have appealed each case from hell to breakfast.
2. I expect that given the behaviour of Muslims both in England AND here, there is likely a tendency among officials not to want to get involved.
3. Anyone who does get involved risks being accused of anti-Semitism or worse.

And on a personal level, I'll be honest. You go into somebody's shit, you should probably do as the Romans do. That's just a personal opinion, and I'm not saying they should back it up with stoning (that's a bit much), but still, its called, be a little sensitive, fucker, or go home.

I have to go. I'll see you all later.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 30, 2014, 08:59:23 PM
And on a personal level, I'll be honest. You go into somebody's shit, you should probably do as the Romans do. That's just a personal opinion, and I'm not saying they should back it up with stoning (that's a bit much), but still, its called, be a little sensitive, fucker, or go home.

Exactly.  They should conform to the laws of the USA.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 30, 2014, 09:16:31 PM
Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiryas_Joel,_New_York
According to 2008 census figures, the village has the highest poverty rate in the nation. More than two-thirds of residents live below the federal poverty line and 40% receive food stamps

Yep, religion sure is great.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 30, 2014, 09:17:43 PM
Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiryas_Joel,_New_York
According to 2008 census figures, the village has the highest poverty rate in the nation. More than two-thirds of residents live below the federal poverty line and 40% receive food stamps

Yep, religion sure is great.

That is not so much a symptom of religiosity so much as cultural xenophobia I think.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on September 30, 2014, 09:24:40 PM
That's true, I'm just trying to stir the pot. I should have specified Judaism for greater rustles.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 30, 2014, 11:21:32 PM
Fair enough. I don't know why a pack of Jewish barbarians would be great though.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 30, 2014, 11:34:09 PM
Well, most of us know Vindictus is as stupid as he looks. But it is true that they do have the highest poverty rate in the USA. That again, is not so much from religion as it is from the social rules that give them VERY large families with only one income. It tends to be from an over literal interpretation of religion, if anything.

But it does also have its roots in xenophobia as well. Most Jews in America tend to regard KJ as kind of the the unwelcome stinky dog that sits under the hutch and barks at everybody, that nobody really wants, but can't bring ourselves to get rid of. As much as they may give the rest of us a rather bad name, they are still family.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on September 30, 2014, 11:40:21 PM
Well, most of us know Vindictus is as stupid as he looks.

I have no idea how he looks so.. Yeah.

Quote
But it is true that they do have the highest poverty rate in the USA. That again, is not so much from religion as it is from the social rules that give them VERY large families with only one income. It tends to be from an over literal interpretation of religion, if anything.

Their social rules come from their religion.

But it does also have its roots in xenophobia as well. Most Jews in America tend to regard KJ as kind of the the unwelcome stinky dog that sits under the hutch and barks at everybody, that nobody really wants, but can't bring ourselves to get rid of. As much as they may give the rest of us a rather bad name, they are still family.
[/quote]

Which is exactly why Sam Harris said religious moderates are the issue. If moderates weren't pussies then all the rock throwing religious nut bags would be banished to the annals of history.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 30, 2014, 11:55:58 PM
Well, the people of KJ aren't really harming anyone. If you don't like the way they live, don't go there. No one is required to go there. It is not necessary to pass through KJ to get where you are going. In fact, its rather out of the way. The only time KJ ever comes up as a problem is when the Township of Monroe comes up, because it is by far the largest Village in the Township. This gives it a disproportionate amount of power in the Township electoral and other political processes. And when everyone votes the way the Grand Rabbi asks them to vote, this can be interpreted as undercutting the democratic principles on which the Republic was founded. Frankly, I am inclined to agree. Am I sure as to how to solve the situation? Not at all. If KJ became its own Township, that may make as many problems for the other three villages as it solves. I am not from KJ, and don't keep up with local politics. I have a hard enough time following what happens here in Iowa.

But I would like to see the residents of KJ be able to live the life to which they are accustomed, and to do so with only minimal interference on the life of the Gentile population, or for that matter, only minimal influence of the Gentiles on the Jewish population.

Surely, there must be a way. It must only be found.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 01, 2014, 12:13:45 AM
Yeah. Move to Israel.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 01, 2014, 12:32:29 AM
New York most likely tolerates such a barbaric town for the same reason Europe tolerates Muslim communities. The authorities fear retributive backlash in the form of "ow, my religious rights!" even though it's an obvious case of the religion pushing on other people, not the opposite. And Yaakov, you can't say "well, just don't go there." This is a civilized country where anywhere one goes, they will (or at least should) receive their rights. No religious text trumps federal law.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on October 01, 2014, 03:38:52 AM
Actually, they are native to Kiryas Joel. It was founded in 1979, and that is when the Grand Rabbi (who selected the location for it) and the families that initiated the profect moved there after the land was bought. You can't be more native than that.

Throwing said rock is certainly not immoral to the person throwing it. It is not in the constitution one way or the other. Whether its illegal or not may or may not depend on whether you're standing inside KJ or not.

Wait. So these Americans are native to their town and therefore can't morally be deported from it, but Palestinians are not native to their land and can morally be deported from it? How is that in any way logical?

It doesn't really matter if the person who threw the rock thought it was moral. Moral relativism is bullshit. It doesn't really matter whether or not Hitler thought he was doing the right thing. Any hypothetical people throwing stones at women for wearing revealing clothes should be imprisoned for attempted (or, if they actually kill the person, 1st degree) murder and probably hate crimes. I'd be upset if they got less than 10 years.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 01, 2014, 04:49:58 AM
New York most likely tolerates such a barbaric town for the same reason Europe tolerates Muslim communities. The authorities fear retributive backlash in the form of "ow, my religious rights!" even though it's an obvious case of the religion pushing on other people, not the opposite. And Yaakov, you can't say "well, just don't go there." This is a civilized country where anywhere one goes, they will (or at least should) receive their rights. No religious text trumps federal law.

Like I said, no Jew outside of KJ likes to admit KJ even exists to non-Jews. The fact that I am even willing to do so in this forum makes me unusual by most Jewish standards. KJ is part of the family. That doesn't mean we have to LIKE it being a part of the family. They take being Jewish a little further than is necessary, by all counts.

I mean, look. I used to travel to the Jewish part of Nashville. It was 85% Jewish. People respected the Sabbath insofar as most places were not open Saturdays, and those that were were delicate about it. Most groceries offered Kosher food, and made a point to keep non-kosher stuff out of the way. Most places of work would never have attempted to compel a Jew to work on the Sabbath. The Synagogues were all respected, and had places of honour in the section of town.

It was great. And ten minutes away by car, you were back in Gentile Nashville land. And everybody got along fine. KJ deliberately seems to intentionally stoke anger among Gentiles. I'm not sure how much of that is the fault of KJ, and  how much of that is due to the impatience of the Gentile population. Frankly, I think its a little of both.

I mean, lets be straight with each other. A shtetl, which is what KJ is, exists so that the Jews living there can more easily function without giving discomfort to non-Jews. If I am the kind of Jew that needs to live a strict, almost cloistered life among my fellow Jews, without contact with the non-Jewish world, speaking only Yiddish and Hebrew (or mostly such), and never stepping foot outside the Jewish world, spending all my time working for my Jewish employer and praying at the Shul, and studying in Yeshiva, then would it not be better if I lived with other Jews?

Would it not be easier for you? As a non-Jew, do you really want to live among such people, who would make your lives so difficult? If I work for you, and I demand my religious rights, to pray three times a day at work, to have all the Jewish holidays off from work, to demand a separate kitchen in the breakroom so that I can eat kosher, aren't you going to welcome the chance for me to live elsewhere in the state?

I'm not that extreme. I consider myself fairly traditional, but by no means to that level. Granted, I don't work. I don't know whether I could work or not in the Gentile world. As a professor, maybe. I have before. But a normal 9-5 job? Where I would have to ask permission to pray three times a day? I don't know. Where I would need permission for my holidays? Well, that would be a bit of a problem. I suppose it would depend. So, being on disability, and being an academic and writer may be a blessing at the moment, although I eventually hope to make money from writing, and get off the disability.

Anyway, I think you see my point. I have to run at the moment, as its time for bed. But consider the above before you judge KJ too harshly. See you all tomorrow.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 01, 2014, 08:19:14 AM
They bus their people to the nearest mall once a week.
They buy a lot of stuff.
Then return much of it the next week.

They're rude, angry, and constantly attempting to gain more things such as water.  m.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20140409/NEWS/140409680&template=wapart


And annexing territory.
www.co.orange.ny.us/content/124/1362/16386/16492.aspx
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 01, 2014, 09:56:29 AM
If KJ is poor, does that mean they don't have any Jew Gold?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 01, 2014, 11:11:24 AM
If KJ is poor, does that mean they don't have any Jew Gold?
KJ is not technically poor.  The people who live there are poor but the township is not.  This is because, as I understand it, the township owns all the money the people generate.  Or at least most of it.

This allows them to maintain food stamps and welfare status while allowing the town to have enough money to casuAlly build a $45 million dollar water pipe to take water from two towns AND enough money to bump the pipe size up after the project was approved.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 01, 2014, 12:02:19 PM
Yes, I have heard about the alleged shopping practices. IF that is true,  then that is clearly quite rude. The key word being IF. I'm also familiar with them attempting to annex territory. They say they are doing it to accomodate their increasing popuation's need for water. Their neighbours say that it would from the property values of their (the neighbour's) own housing if high rise) apts were built on the land that currently is natural land, with nothing on it. My own opinion on that is mixed. Clearly people need a place to live. I would need to study to situation out before I determined whether KJ needed for land or not. I simply can't answer that. I don't think the neighbour's home values are relevant at all. What IS relevant is, do people have a place to live or not? If yes, then don't annex shit. If no, then take the territory. Its that simple.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 01, 2014, 01:09:33 PM
Yes, I have heard about the alleged shopping practices. IF that is true,  then that is clearly quite rude. The key word being IF. I'm also familiar with theme attempting to annex territory. They say they are doing it to accomodate their increasing popuation's need for water. Their neighbours say that it would from the property values of their (the neighbour's) own housing if high rise) apts were built on the land that currently is natural land, with nothing on it. My own opinion on that is mixed. Clearly people need a place to live. I would need to study to situation out before I determined whether KJ needed for land or not. I simply can't answer that. I don't think the neighbour's home values are relevant at all. What IS relevant is, do people have a place to live or not? If yes, thebn don't annex shit. If no, then take the territory. Its that simple.
There is no if.  My wife saw them every week at Macy's.

And if KJ has so many people on welfare, why should they be allowed to increase their population so much?  They should just move to Israel.  Or better yet, be relocated to Israel with 6 months pay.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 01, 2014, 01:12:13 PM
Yes, I have heard about the alleged shopping practices. IF that is true,  then that is clearly quite rude. The key word being IF. I'm also familiar with theme attempting to annex territory. They say they are doing it to accomodate their increasing popuation's need for water. Their neighbours say that it would from the property values of their (the neighbour's) own housing if high rise) apts were built on the land that currently is natural land, with nothing on it. My own opinion on that is mixed. Clearly people need a place to live. I would need to study to situation out before I determined whether KJ needed for land or not. I simply can't answer that. I don't think the neighbour's home values are relevant at all. What IS relevant is, do people have a place to live or not? If yes, thebn don't annex shit. If no, then take the territory. Its that simple.

No it's not that simple. There are laws in the USA don't you know. Just because a bunch of barbaric fundamentalists don't care does not mean they are exempt.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 01, 2014, 01:42:22 PM
Well, from what I am reading, it sounds like they are attempting to follow at least form of law in the process of annexation. Obviously. They would have to be. It would be rather hard to just walk into a place and take it in this country, although in other countries it could be done. Now, as to whether they are following the spirit of things, I suppose that depends on who you talk to. But the very fact that they ARE American citizens means you can't deport them. "Palestinians" are not Israeli citizens. They can and should be deported. Of course, that does not speak for the 22% of Arabs within the Green Line who are, and who I would be inclined to let remain in Israel as long as they took an oath of obedience to the Israeli State, many of whom have already done so.

So there are very few similarities between "Palestinians" who are NOT citizens of Israel and residents of KJ who ARE citizens of the USA. Even if they do behave badly, and I have seen no proof that they do per se, they are still operating at least under form of law. But, as I have said before, they have managed to get themselves quite a reputation, I know that, even in the Jewish community. Someone said awhile ago that if I had heard of KJ, I either lived in the area, or they were quite (in)famous. Well, truth be told, its the latter. I live in Iowa.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 01, 2014, 01:46:15 PM
Palestinians were citizens of where they were living until it was taken from them no?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 01, 2014, 03:01:11 PM
Ah, not really. Egypt controlled the Gaza, and Jordan controlled the West Bank. These territories were taken by Israel in wars started by Arabs, and lost by them. At a later time, both Egypt and Jordan gave up claims to both areas. According to the much vaunted international law, when a country gives up territory in a formal way, the obligation of said country is to allow its citizens to move into the territory it still controls. So, for example, if the United States were to formally surrender control of California to California itself or to any other entity, any American citizen would have to right to move into American territory still claimed by the United States. Neither Egypt nor Jordan permitted the "Palestinians" to do that. Therefore, the "Palestinians" became stateless, since both the Gaza and the West Bank were under, and in the case of the West Bank still is under, the military administration of Israel. They did NOT summarily gain the right to independence, which they had NEVER claimed before. In fact, "Palestine" had always claimed to be a part of Syria throughout most of its history until the establishment of the State of Israel.

As stateless persons, "Palestinians" are citizens of nowhere and nothing, and have no claim to a nationality. International law gives them that right, which means that Egypt and Jordan are both obligated to fulfill their duties, and by not doing so, both nations are derelict in their duties. That may be unfortunate for the people involved, but it is hardly Israel's problem. Since it has been MADE Israel's problem, Israel has no choice but to deal with the problem in a military manner.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 01, 2014, 04:32:43 PM
I don't think you should start citing International Law to support Israeli claims. It has not looked favorably on it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on October 01, 2014, 04:36:46 PM
Actually, they are native to Kiryas Joel. It was founded in 1979, and that is when the Grand Rabbi (who selected the location for it) and the families that initiated the profect moved there after the land was bought. You can't be more native than that.
I don't think that's what native means.  How can you be native to a place where you weren't born?  ???
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 01, 2014, 08:24:12 PM
One question that's been bugging me for some time about Jews...

How many Jews does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 01, 2014, 08:34:20 PM
I can cite international law as much as I like. The fact that the so-called "arbiters" of international law are anti-Semitic and anti-Israel is not my fault. So what you are telling me is that when it works in the favour of non-Jews, international law can be used. But when it doesn't, it can't be? My only response to that is, go fuck yourself. If the UN wasn't such a hypocritical fucking joke that needed to be abolished straightaway, Israel would be judged in the right 90% of the time. I used your much vaunted international law to prove a point, and make you look stupid, and I succeeded. Ultimately, I believe that the UN and the ICC should be abolished and their buildings incinerated, preferably with the members still in them. So like I said, go fuck yourself.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 01, 2014, 08:39:05 PM
Wow! Chill.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 01, 2014, 08:45:24 PM
I can cite international law as much as I like. The fact that the so-called "arbiters" of international law are anti-Semitic and anti-Israel is not my fault. So what you are telling me is that when it works in the favour of non-Jews, international law can be used. But when it doesn't, it can't be? My only response to that is, go fuck yourself. If the UN wasn't such a hypocritical fucking joke that needed to be abolished straightaway, Israel would be judged in the right 90% of the time. I used your much vaunted international law to prove a point, and make you look stupid, and I succeeded. Ultimately, I believe that the UN and the ICC should be abolished and their buildings incinerated, preferably with the members still in them. So like I said, go fuck yourself.

YHWH called. He's disappointed in all the foul language you've been using. He will flood 4 cities because of this.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 01, 2014, 09:20:48 PM
I can cite international law as much as I like. The fact that the so-called "arbiters" of international law are anti-Semitic and anti-Israel is not my fault. So what you are telling me is that when it works in the favour of non-Jews, international law can be used. But when it doesn't, it can't be? My only response to that is, go fuck yourself. If the UN wasn't such a hypocritical fucking joke that needed to be abolished straightaway, Israel would be judged in the right 90% of the time. I used your much vaunted international law to prove a point, and make you look stupid, and I succeeded. Ultimately, I believe that the UN and the ICC should be abolished and their buildings incinerated, preferably with the members still in them. So like I said, go fuck yourself.

Relax man.  You previously rejected the rulings of international law when they were against Israel, and now choose to hold them up when they are against Palestinians, this is hypocrisy at its finest.  You just can't have it both ways is all I am saying.  So although you may think you made me look stupid, I dont think anyone agrees with you (except perhaps KJers, but they dont have interwebs I imagine), and you are being pretty uncivil.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 01, 2014, 11:16:08 PM
I can find a whole country that agrees with me. Its called Israel. You may have heard of it. And a good portion of the US and Canada seem to as well, unless you count the idiot President we currently have, with his Left-wing minions who don't have a clue how to conduct foreign policy. A trained fucking polar bear with a oujia board and a set of dice could do a better job.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 02, 2014, 12:40:23 AM
I can find a whole country that agrees with me. Its called Israel. You may have heard of it. And a good portion of the US and Canada seem to as well, unless you count the idiot President we currently have, with his Left-wing minions who don't have a clue how to conduct foreign policy. A trained fucking polar bear with a oujia board and a set of dice could do a better job.
I'd say this was an argument ad populum but at 0.12% of the total population I don't think that counts.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 02, 2014, 02:41:28 AM
And I would say that since humans are not always logical, you must be prepared to accept that neither side will be necessarily. And since "Palestinians" are only one step up from the higher primates... I mean, seriously. Only the latest models can actually talk. The rest of them are still swinging from their tails.

But that is beside the point. The point remains that they don't belong there, and never will. All "Palestinians" in Greater Israel must be deported, and those who refuse to leave must be forced out at gun point. Its a very simple problem with an easy solution, really.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on October 02, 2014, 02:58:14 AM
And since "Palestinians" are only one step up from the higher primates... I mean, seriously. Only the latest models can actually talk. The rest of them are still swinging from their tails.
Wow.  With an attitude like that, it's no wonder the Palestinians hate you.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 02, 2014, 03:39:41 AM
Take a number, wait in line...
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 02, 2014, 04:48:47 AM
This is hilarious.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 02, 2014, 05:28:07 AM
I can find a whole country that agrees with me. Its called Israel. You may have heard of it. And a good portion of the US and Canada seem to as well, unless you count the idiot President we currently have, with his Left-wing minions who don't have a clue how to conduct foreign policy. A trained fucking polar bear with a oujia board and a set of dice could do a better job.

Following this logic, since Muslims have more countries agreeing with them than you do, they must be correct?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 02, 2014, 05:45:41 AM
But the Jews are the chosen people! How can they be wrong???
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 02, 2014, 06:18:13 AM
And since "Palestinians" are only one step up from the higher primates... I mean, seriously. Only the latest models can actually talk. The rest of them are still swinging from their tails.
Wow.  With an attitude like that, it's no wonder the Palestinians hate you.

In the immortal words of Tom Lehrer: Everybody hates the jews.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 02, 2014, 10:00:58 AM
My only response to that is, go fuck yourself. If the UN wasn't such a hypocritical fucking joke that needed to be abolished straightaway, Israel would be judged in the right 90% of the time. I used your much vaunted international law to prove a point, and make you look stupid, and I succeeded. Ultimately, I believe that the UN and the ICC should be abolished and their buildings incinerated, preferably with the members still in them. So like I said, go fuck yourself.

Hey, Yaakov, remember this?

Yaakov, please keep the personal insults out of your posts. You're welcome to think that Thork/Saddam/everyone is a terrible sub-human, and you're welcome to express these views in Angry Ranting and Complete Nonsense, but this is not something that will be allowed in the upper fora. You've been warned about this before by Junker and you've clearly ignored it, so next time we're gonna have to start handing out short bans.

I'm sorry, but I feel that we've already pushed the line quite far by being so patient with you. Two-day ban it is.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 02, 2014, 10:10:59 AM
2 days is a bit soft, isn't it?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 02, 2014, 10:14:31 AM
2 days is a bit soft, isn't it?
If it doesn't work, subsequent bans will get bigger.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spanner34.5 on October 02, 2014, 01:14:54 PM
Male circumcision is not mutilation and never has been. It is widely done in the the USA by non-Jews simply as a health measure, to aid in the cleaning of the penis.

There has never been any practice of female cutting of any sort by Jews.

On a male, the pain, if any, is very brief.
It appears that your definition of mutilation disagrees with mine.



It also appears that your definition of mutilation disagrees with dictionaries.
QUOTE
Some ethnic groups practice ritual mutilation, e.g. circumcision, scarification, burning, flagellation, tattooing, or wheeling, as part of a rite of passage. In some cases, the term may apply to treatment of dead bodies, such as soldiers mutilated after they have been killed by an enemy.
Anyone promoting genital mutilation of children, male or female, should be banned forever.

Consenting adults should be allowed to mutilate themselves, if they wish. Subjecting minors is just plain wrong!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 04, 2014, 10:29:35 AM
QUOTE: "Anyone promoting genital mutilation of children, male or female, should be banned forever. Consenting adults should be allowed to mutilate themselves, if they wish. Subjecting minors is just plain wrong!"

 Ok. Let's deal with this rude and immature comment first, shall we (NOTE TO CENSORS: Not an insult to the person who made the remarks, but rather a commentary on the remarks themselves; there is a difference)?

Point One: 1. I am sure that if you looked up the word "bris" in a Hebrew dictionary, you would get a different definition. Point Two: 2. Male circumcision is practiced by non-Jews often in the USA as a health measure to aid in the cleaning of the penis. It causes very little or no pain, and in no way damages the penis. FGM, on the other hand, serves no valid purposes, is not backed by ANY religious practices whatsoever, and causes permanent and lasting harm to the female genitalia, aside from being horrifically painful. Conclusion: My advice, Spanner, would be to grow up, and cease to be an anti-Semitic, uninformed child, and begin to act like an adult (NOTE TO CENSORS: Also not an insult, but rather, a fair observation on the maturity or lack thereof of a person). That would benefit us all.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 04, 2014, 02:57:59 PM
(NOTE TO CENSORS: Also not an insult, but rather, a fair observation on the maturity or lack thereof of a person)

No, I don't think so. Have another break.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 04, 2014, 08:47:05 PM
Well,  Spanner clearly doesn't understand Jews. I won't go so far as to call him anti-Semitic (yet), and I won't call him a child, which he obviously is not. And it appears that the Moderators tend to  be a little sensitive on this forum when it comes to perceived insults. As for not understanding Jews, that is a common problem. Spanner is hardly the first, nor will he be the last, to have that problem.

Circumcision, as most people know, is an ancient practice, performed by religious requirement by both Jews and Muslims. Jews always do it at day 8 of a male child's life. Muslims do it at varying ages, sometimes as late as 13 years old (which is how old Ishmael was when it was done to him [OUCH]). When done to an infant, there is only minor pain, and no damage done to the penis.

When done to a thirteen-year-old or other older person, it is minor surgery, and does hurt, and requires a recovery period of anything from several days to a few weeks depending on the person. Even urinating can be painful, and as for sex, forget about it. In fact, a Jewish parent is doing his son a favor by doing it in their infancy when the pain is minor, the recovery period only about 2 days or less, and the need for sex non-existent. Urination is not painful after the experience, even during the first two days, from what I am told. Far better to do it when one is 8 days old then when one is an adult or older child. God! Who in their right mind would want to do it then!

So all that having been said, is there anything left to be said on this?

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on October 04, 2014, 08:54:10 PM
There's a non-zero risk of complications with can lead to the amputation of the penis or even death. How can you justify that? We're talking about newborn babies here and you want to risk seriously disfiguring or killing them?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 04, 2014, 08:57:27 PM
[...]and no damage done to the penis.

Um... did nobody teach you what circumcision does?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 04, 2014, 09:03:31 PM
And it appears that the Moderators tend to  be a little sensitive on this forum when it comes to perceived insults.
Sensitive? We've literally ignored your shit for months.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 04, 2014, 09:05:11 PM
1. Circumcision LOWERS the risk of getting HIV/AIDS from a female partner.
2. "Injury to the penis or glans. With sharp instruments and human tissue, injury is always a possibility and, to parents, a big concern. Historically there have been rare instances of amputation or partial amputation of the glans or penis, but this is a freak occurrence. In fact, a 2010 British review of more than 16 studies on infant circumcision worldwide found a zero percent rate of serious complications. More common is a partial circumcision, where some foreskin is left, which can cause irritation, phimosis, and problems that may require revision surgery later." Quotation from http://www.parenting.com/health-guide/circumcision/circumcision-risks
3."Consider hygiene. Circumcision makes it easier to clean the penis, although it is not difficult to learn to clean under the foreskin. If an uncircumcised penis isn’t properly cleaned, smegma can accumulate under the foreskin and cause infection or adhesions. According to the AAP, it is proper hygiene that is critical to an infant’s health, not his circumcision status." same source.

I am well aware of what circumcision does to the penis. It does NOT harm the penis. It removes the foreskin, which is NOT a part of the penis itself, but rather, is the foreskin, which is separate.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on October 04, 2014, 09:06:03 PM
Yaakov, most forums would have permabanned you about a thousand posts ago. Don't complain about the mods. They're very nice to you.

Also, posting under an alt after getting banned is poor form. At least pretend to be someone else.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 04, 2014, 09:15:41 PM
It does NOT harm the penis. It removes the foreskin, which is NOT a part of the penis itself, but rather, is the foreskin, which is separate.

It becomes separate only once you remove it.

At least pretend to be someone else.

I wouldn't prefer that. It's easier for us that he's clear about who he is.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 04, 2014, 09:23:07 PM
I choose to NOT insult anybody, as that has been the request. Any other Jew who saw this thread would probably go ballistic on here. Between the statements about counting Jew gold, and owning the Bank of England, and all that, along with the anti-Israel garbage, there is enough anti-Semitism to make Hitler proud. But hey, I choose to engage the thread anyway, and not lose my cool. And I admit that I have at times been a bit uncharitable myself. I apologise for that. There is no excuse for me to be an alter kacker, even if some people here are less than kind. So, perhaps we could all take a break from being harsh to each other, and lets have a genuine discussion with each other, and be reasonable, shall we?

There is very little holding the foreskin to the penis, actually. Its a separate piece of flesh entirely, attached by a small piece of skin near the tip, and a ring of skin at the base, and not much more than that.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 04, 2014, 09:27:59 PM
There is very little holding the foreskin to the penis, actually. Its a separate piece of flesh entirely, attached by a small piece of skin near the tip, and a ring of skin at the base, and not much more than that.

By that logic, your eyes aren't really a part of your head.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on October 04, 2014, 09:36:47 PM
I choose to NOT insult anybody, as that has been the request. Any other Jew who saw this thread would probably go ballistic on here. Between the statements about counting Jew gold, and owning the Bank of England, and all that, along with the anti-Israel garbage, there is enough anti-Semitism to make Hitler proud. But hey, I choose to engage the thread anyway, and not lose my cool. And I admit that I have at times been a bit uncharitable myself. I apologise for that. There is no excuse for me to be an alter kacker, even if some people here are less than kind. So, perhaps we could all take a break from being harsh to each other, and lets have a genuine discussion with each other, and be reasonable, shall we?

There is very little holding the foreskin to the penis, actually. Its a separate piece of flesh entirely, attached by a small piece of skin near the tip, and a ring of skin at the base, and not much more than that.

We're just telling the truth. It's not our fault you've been brainwashed by your rabbis.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 04, 2014, 09:59:53 PM
Actually, IMHO, the Censors, had they been truly neutral, would have banned several people by now right along with me, but in their cases, for being grossly anti-Semitic. Just the anti-Israel crap would be enough to do it. All of you failing to even consider facts in the Israel/"Palestinian" situation would be enough. For example, the absolutely absurd accusation of genocide, when in fact the "Palestinian" population has multiplied by four times since '67, is enough in and of itself to prove that the other accusations should at least be reconsidered. The fact that a "Palestinian" right now can take a picture of Netanyahu and write on it that "Netanyahu sucks ass" and go and hold it up in public, with nothing happening to him, is a clear indicator that for an Occupying Power, Israel is remarkably tolerant. Try anything similar in Tibet. For that matter, try it in ANY Muslim country of the Middle East, Arab or Persian, for that matter. The fact that the same "Palestinian", if he has an objection to his treatment by the Occupying Power, can sue said Occupying Power in that Power's own Supreme Court, and has a good chance of winning his case (many "Palestinians" have), is quite remarkable for an Occupying Power. I have to go for a moment. But when I come back, I can have more of these factoids available to show that as far as Occupying Powers go, Israel is a pretty decent one.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 04, 2014, 10:08:35 PM
Between the statements about counting Jew gold, and owning the Bank of England
Lol.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 04, 2014, 10:09:17 PM
Anti-semitism isn't against the rules m8

You'll just have to accept the fact that not everyone is as obsessed with your religion as you are.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 04, 2014, 10:14:16 PM
>gets banned for offensive language
>makes alt account with offensive language
>doesn't get banned

If I break one rule, that's no bueno, if I break two, that's legit. Okay.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 04, 2014, 10:21:12 PM
So, anti-Semitism is allowed, but if I say anything against the Muslims, that's not allowed. I see how it is... Political Correctness at its best.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 04, 2014, 10:26:47 PM
>gets banned for offensive language
>makes alt account with offensive language
>doesn't get banned

If I break one rule, that's no bueno, if I break two, that's legit. Okay.

Feel free to report rule breaking if and when you see it.

So, anti-Semitism is allowed, but if I say anything against the Muslims, that's not allowed. I see how it is... Political Correctness at its best.

You weren't banned for not liking muslims.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 04, 2014, 10:29:28 PM
So, anti-Semitism is allowed, but if I say anything against the Muslims, that's not allowed. I see how it is... Political Correctness at its best.

Jews are in control of everything. The only reason that you would ever lose control of a situation (e.g. get banned) is because you're not Jewing hard enough. It wasn't that you said anything against Muslims, its just that you obviously didn't say enough. Ignite the rage inside and please the Jew overlords.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 04, 2014, 10:41:44 PM
Yaakov, where does your new username come from? Is this another one of your jew names?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 05, 2014, 12:40:03 AM
So, anti-Semitism is allowed, but if I say anything against the Muslims, that's not allowed. I see how it is... Political Correctness at its best.

Jews are in control of everything. The only reason that you would ever lose control of a situation (e.g. get banned) is because you're not Jewing hard enough. It wasn't that you said anything against Muslims, its just that you obviously didn't say enough. Ignite the rage inside and please the Jew overlords.

Commenting on a remark that utterly ridiculous would just make me equally ridiculous. Welcome to anti-Semitism at its best, is all I can say.

Yaakov, where does your new username come from? Is this another one of your jew names?

My real Hebrew name is indeed Yaakov ben Avraham. Yonah ben Amittai is the full name of the Prophet Jonah in Hebrew.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 05, 2014, 12:46:38 AM
This thread is proof that Yakkov is either a terrible person, a terrible jew, or the best jew ever.

Either way, Yakkov is not someone I personally like.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 05, 2014, 12:55:06 AM
This thread is proof that Yakkov is either a terrible person, a terrible jew, or the best jew ever.

Either way, Yakkov is not someone I personally like.

I think advocating mass genocide is enough to consider them a pretty bad person ::)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 05, 2014, 12:59:08 AM
This thread is proof that Yakkov is either a terrible person, a terrible jew, or the best jew ever.

Either way, Yakkov is not someone I personally like.

I think advocating mass genocide is enough to consider them a pretty bad person ::)

There's no difference between killing a city of humans and killing the ants in an ant mound, which people do every day.

And don't start with the "ants are a lower lifeform, they're barely sentient" nonsense.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 05, 2014, 01:08:16 AM
DAVE, you don't have to like me. I don't personally give a rat's ass whether you do or not. The fact is, a sizable number of the people in the room (notice I do NOT say a majority, or most) have indicated signs of either anti-Semitism, or at the least, gross ignorance. The remarks made about Israel are sufficient to prove that. Furthermore, the comments about Jews owning everything in the world, and controlling everything, when we make up less than .02% of the population, are not only anti-Semitic, they are just outright stupid.

How does that work? How does that tiny percentage of people manage to control the entire planet? I mean, damn, either non-Jews are incredibly stupid (which I don't believe for a minute), or we are incredibly brilliant (which is true, but still, we aren't brilliant enough for that) or both, for us to accomplish that! But we haven't done too well, since we managed to get 6 million of us killed in 12 years. How does a population that controls the world manage to get fully 1/4 of its population annihilated by one Austrian small-time corporal turned dictator that couldn't even write grammatical German, and couldn't even get accepted to art school?

I mean, you are all beginning to sound more silly by the moment, the more anti-Semitic you get. I'm beginning to think that nothing more even need be said. I started this thread to answer legitimate questions about Jews and Judaism, rather than absurd ones. So, ask away. But put an end to the foolish ones.

Vindictus, you have, as usual, failed to see the point. I have at no time advocated genocide. Again, Israel has never engaged in the practice. Given that the "Palestinian" population has multiplied by 4 times in 47 years, lets face it, they're doing a piss-poor job of it if that is what they are attempting to do. If Israel truly wanted to eliminate every "Palestinian", it could be accomplished within a week. Intensive carpet bombing or fire bombing would do the job quite nicely.  I realise you regularly fail to see my point. I've gotten used to that, so don't expect me to be overly surprised.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on October 05, 2014, 01:11:17 AM
Actually, IMHO, the Censors, had they been truly neutral, would have banned several people by now right along with me, but in their cases, for being grossly anti-Semitic. Just the anti-Israel crap would be enough to do it. All of you failing to even consider facts in the Israel/"Palestinian" situation would be enough. For example, the absolutely absurd accusation of genocide, when in fact the "Palestinian" population has multiplied by four times since '67, is enough in and of itself to prove that the other accusations should at least be reconsidered. The fact that a "Palestinian" right now can take a picture of Netanyahu and write on it that "Netanyahu sucks ass" and go and hold it up in public, with nothing happening to him, is a clear indicator that for an Occupying Power, Israel is remarkably tolerant. Try anything similar in Tibet. For that matter, try it in ANY Muslim country of the Middle East, Arab or Persian, for that matter. The fact that the same "Palestinian", if he has an objection to his treatment by the Occupying Power, can sue said Occupying Power in that Power's own Supreme Court, and has a good chance of winning his case (many "Palestinians" have), is quite remarkable for an Occupying Power. I have to go for a moment. But when I come back, I can have more of these factoids available to show that as far as Occupying Powers go, Israel is a pretty decent one.

You didn't get banned for being an Islamophobe. There are worse people than you on this forum. You got banned for constantly insulting everyone. It's not cool, dude. It's just not cool.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 05, 2014, 01:13:00 AM
This thread is proof that Yakkov is either a terrible person, a terrible jew, or the best jew ever.

Either way, Yakkov is not someone I personally like.

I think advocating mass genocide is enough to consider them a pretty bad person ::)
They aren't advocating mass genocide, just forced relocation and encampment.  You know, like the Indians.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 05, 2014, 01:15:39 AM
Actually, IMHO, the Censors, had they been truly neutral, would have banned several people by now right along with me, but in their cases, for being grossly anti-Semitic. Just the anti-Israel crap would be enough to do it. All of you failing to even consider facts in the Israel/"Palestinian" situation would be enough. For example, the absolutely absurd accusation of genocide, when in fact the "Palestinian" population has multiplied by four times since '67, is enough in and of itself to prove that the other accusations should at least be reconsidered. The fact that a "Palestinian" right now can take a picture of Netanyahu and write on it that "Netanyahu sucks ass" and go and hold it up in public, with nothing happening to him, is a clear indicator that for an Occupying Power, Israel is remarkably tolerant. Try anything similar in Tibet. For that matter, try it in ANY Muslim country of the Middle East, Arab or Persian, for that matter. The fact that the same "Palestinian", if he has an objection to his treatment by the Occupying Power, can sue said Occupying Power in that Power's own Supreme Court, and has a good chance of winning his case (many "Palestinians" have), is quite remarkable for an Occupying Power. I have to go for a moment. But when I come back, I can have more of these factoids available to show that as far as Occupying Powers go, Israel is a pretty decent one.

You didn't get banned for being an Islamophobe. There are worse people than you on this forum. You got banned for constantly insulting everyone. It's not cool, dude. It's just not cool.

I don't think that was the point of my quote. The point was to say that being anti-Semitic toward a Jew is as insulting as I was toward some of you, which I have admitted to, and for which I have apologised. If the Censors had been truly neutral, they'd have banned others for their anti-Semitic insults thrown at me, which are just as hurtful and nasty as my insults were toward others.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 05, 2014, 01:23:43 AM
This thread is proof that Yakkov is either a terrible person, a terrible jew, or the best jew ever.

Either way, Yakkov is not someone I personally like.

I think advocating mass genocide is enough to consider them a pretty bad person ::)
They aren't advocating mass genocide, just forced relocation and encampment.  You know, like the Indians.

Forced relocation, yes, in a sense. But done humanely, as has had to be done before. The Germans of the Sudentenland after 1945, Some of the Muslims of India, and nearly all of the Hindus of Pakistan after 1947, being a few that ring bells right off hand. 750,000 Jews that lived in Arab countries all being deported to Israel in 1948 being some more. The difference is the Jews weren't kindly relocated, but forced out with nothing but what they could carry.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on October 05, 2014, 01:25:29 AM
Commenting on a remark that utterly ridiculous would just make me equally ridiculous. Welcome to anti-Semitism at its best, is all I can say.
Or, it could mean that you have finally given in to the ridiculousness of this place.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 05, 2014, 01:33:43 AM
This thread is proof that Yakkov is either a terrible person, a terrible jew, or the best jew ever.

Either way, Yakkov is not someone I personally like.

I think advocating mass genocide is enough to consider them a pretty bad person ::)
They aren't advocating mass genocide, just forced relocation and encampment.  You know, like the Indians.

Forced relocation, yes, in a sense. But done humanely, as has had to be done before. The Germans of the Sudentenland after 1945, Some of the Muslims of India, and nearly all of the Hindus of Pakistan after 1947, being a few that ring bells right off hand. 750,000 Jews that lived in Arab countries all being deported to Israel in 1948 being some more. The difference is the Jews weren't kindly relocated, but forced out with nothing but what they could carry.
I'm not sure any forced relocation is humane.  I mean, what if every jew was forced to move to Israel with 6 months pay?  (what level exactly?)  I mean, we'd be ripping families apart if they're mixed religion.  We'd be destroying lives.  I've moved against my will before.  I did not enjoy the experience.  I can't imagine anyone enjoying it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 05, 2014, 01:45:14 AM
But Dave! Don't you know that Muslims are insignificant sub-human garbage? Why would it matter if their lives would be destroyed if it meant that the glorious chosen people were to regain their holy promised land?!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 05, 2014, 01:49:39 AM
There's no difference between killing a city of humans and killing the ants in an ant mound, which people do every day.

And don't start with the "ants are a lower lifeform, they're barely sentient" nonsense.

Ants are territorial and hostile. They bring it upon themselves.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 05, 2014, 02:31:57 AM
I'm not expecting anyone to enjoy it. Nor do I consider Muslims as necessarily sub-human, although I don't want to be anywhere near them. I do consider them to be dangerous, since the Quran, which I have read three times, but I suspect you have not read at all, tells them they must convert me, force me to pay the Jizyah tax, or kill me. In Israel, there ARE no mixed religious marriages, or at least VERY few, since they are not permitted. Each religious faith is responsible for its own marriages. In Judaism, this means that Orthodox Judaism has responsibility for ALL Jewish marriages, and other life cycle events, that occur in Israel. If I want to live in Israel, and I get married in a Reform synagogue in that country, said marriage is NOT recognised by the state. If I leave the country and get married in the closest Reform Synagogue (which is in Cyprus) or in any other country, and then return to Israel, the State WILL recognise the marriage.

As far as Muslim marriages, and Christian marriages, and Druze marriages, each community is responsible for its own marriages. Muslims only allow men to marry non-Muslim girls, women are not allowed to marry outside the faith. Druze cannot marry out, and Christians tend to vary. But since no, or at least very few, Jewish girls would ever marry a non-Jewish male just because of social pressure, and few Muslim men would marry a Jewish girl, and so-on and so-forth, all these rules create an interlocking set of social rules and religious regulations that very few people of ANY religion are inclined to break, even the non-religious Jews, who actually make up a sizable portion of the population. There IS NO SECULAR MARRIAGE IN ISRAEL.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 05, 2014, 02:33:09 AM
There's no difference between killing a city of humans and killing the ants in an ant mound, which people do every day.

And don't start with the "ants are a lower lifeform, they're barely sentient" nonsense.

Ants are territorial and hostile. They bring it upon themselves.

So are Muslims. And heathens.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 05, 2014, 03:29:05 AM
Vindictus, you have, as usual, failed to see the point. I have at no time advocated genocide. Again, Israel has never engaged in the practice. Given that the "Palestinian" population has multiplied by 4 times in 47 years, lets face it, they're doing a piss-poor job of it if that is what they are attempting to do. If Israel truly wanted to eliminate every "Palestinian", it could be accomplished within a week. Intensive carpet bombing or fire bombing would do the job quite nicely.  I realise you regularly fail to see my point. I've gotten used to that, so don't expect me to be overly surprised.

I'm not talking about the Palestinians, I don't even need to go there. You've repeatedly advocated the genocide of muslims around the world.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: garygreen on October 05, 2014, 03:37:36 AM
the Quran, which I have read three times, but I suspect you have not read at all, tells them they must convert me, force me to pay the Jizyah tax, or kill me.

Have you ever actually been to an Arab nation and engaged its inhabitants in any civil discourse?  You're aware that not a single Arab state applies a Jizya tax, yes?

You're conflating both the official political rhetoric of nations like Iran, and the totally Medieval philosophy of ISIS, with the thoughts, feelings, and opinions, of the 'typical' Arab citizen.  It's completely bogus.  Arab citizens are as peaceful as any other.  They overwhelmingly have zero interest in converting anyone or killing anyone for any reason.

I've never read the Quran.  I dunno what it says; but, you've mentioned previously that there are writings/laws/whatever in the Torah to which modern Judaism no longer adheres.  Is it so difficult for you to believe that maybe some of the more Medieval aspects of the Quran are also no longer applicable or practiced in modern Islam? 

You clearly don't think it's fair for someone to label you as a barbarian because the Torah commands you to stone to death adulterers, homosexuals, and disobedient children.  Obviously.  Your faith doesn't practice those commandments anymore except in small pockets of extremists (which you actually defend, oddly enough).  The exact same thing is true for Islam.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 05, 2014, 04:06:42 AM
I have not advocated the genocide of Muslims around the world. I have advocated their complete subjugation. Nor do I apologise for that. They would do nothing less to us. As they say, "First the Saturday people, then the Sunday people." Of course, you have probably never heard the phrase, but every Jew has. And any Christian who has lived long enough in the Middle East has heard it.

But, like most Americans, you have an idealised view of Muslims. You have obviously not read the Qur'an. That's a shame, because you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Anyone who tries to talk about Islam without having read their chief text should probably shut their yap. In fact, unless one can cite Hadith with some sufficiency, I suggest not opening one's yap at all. Of course, in your case, you would probably be hard-pressed to even know what Hadith are. Never mind asking, I'll tell you.

Hadith are the collected sayings of the "Prophet" Mohammed, which were collected by four schools of thought in Islam. The one I know best happens to be Sahi al Bukhari. There are three others in the Sunni (which basically means "Orthodox") sect of Islam, and five more in the Shia sect of Islam. Shia does not mean "heretic", but they are considered to be such by the larger Sunni population, because they engage in practices that are considered to be out of line with standard Islam, such as saint worship, and other such practices.

I could go on at length, but I think I've said enough. Since this is a Jewish thread, I would prefer not to pollute it with the practices of a religion that borders on the pagan, if it doesn't actually become such in its Shia variety. Anyway, there you are. Again, Vindictus, your failure to see the point does not shock me in the least.

Gary, in fact, there are countries in the Arab world that are even LESS tolerant than the Qur'an. At least the Qur'an tolerates Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians. Try being any one of those things in Saudi Arabia. Try being anything other than a Muslim if you are a citizen of that country. The punishment for such is death. And they don't screw around. They carry it out.

And tell the average "Palestinian" how much interest he has in seeing himself live in peaceful co-existence with Jews. They have made it painfully clear, to the tune of 93% of them, that they want to see us "pushed into the sea". They continue to teach their children that "Palestine" is the only country there. The maps that are in their textbooks do not show Israel at all. And those same books describe Jews as apes and pigs, and some of them include Holocaust denial as part of the lesson plans.

Gary, I strongly advise you NOT to yap at me about how the Arab in the street feels about the Jew. I already know the answer to that. The only reason The average Arab nation doesn't require the Jizyah tax is because there ARE no Jews or Christians there to pay it! Egypt has some Christians, where martyrdom occurs regularly. Morocco is a major exception, and treats its Jews well. Iran routinely persecutes its religious minorities. Those are the only three nations in the Middle East at this point that have to worry about minorities. Originally, you were right. The Jizyah was not required, but in Iraq under Saddam, minorities always had to duck. If they did, they were usually left alone. Now, their situation is dire.

Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Morocco, Syria, and that's about it for Middle Eastern nations. The rest of them are about 99% Muslim or greater. And except for Morocco, it sucks to be you if you live in any of them. So, just because you don't have to pay the Jizyah tax (yet), doesn't mean you are free from abuse. Lebanon is the only country that is truly multi-confessional, and its a mess.

And note that except for Iran and Morocco, NO single Middle Eastern country permits Jews to reside there or even enter the territory at all. Saudi Arabia will not even permit me to lay over in the Riyadh Airport on my way to South Africa or any place else. Most other Arab nations behave accordingly. In theory, Egypt will, but there are only about 500 Jews living there. There are no other Arab countries that have Jews in them, to my knowledge. So tell me about how Jews are treated by Arabs. And in Iran, Jews have to duck constantly.

And yes, I have spoken personally to Muslims and even studied in a Mosque for two years. Didn't tell them I was a Jew, but that's beside the point.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 05, 2014, 05:33:30 AM
It boils down to two cultures that think they're superior to each other and as a result attempt to extinguish the opposing "inferior" culture. Since Israel already has nukes, I say ship a few to Hamas and see what happens. The nukes will stabilize the region, either by nuclear deterrent, or by removing the entire populace via a fireball.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 05, 2014, 06:25:53 AM
We (Murica) can't just start handing out nukes. That could back fire catastrophically. I say we cut out the middleman and nuke them first.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: xasop on October 05, 2014, 09:31:57 AM
Yaakov/Yonah, we don't ban people the moment they break rules. We ban people who have been issued (and who have ignored) warnings on the matter. Banning is not a tool of punishment, it is a tool of correction, and should be used as a last resort. That's also why we didn't ban your alt straight away, but we will do so if you continue to break the same rule.

That's the last I'll say of this here, because it's off-topic. If you honestly feel that moderators have acted unfairly, please create a thread in Suggestions & Concerns, which is the appropriate forum for that. Preferably include links to the posts that you find incriminating, as supporting evidence, so that we can try to make an impartial assessment of the situation. Moderators are people too; they make mistakes, and they don't automatically understand everyone's point of view. S&C is the appropriate place to identify and deal with such issues.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 05, 2014, 09:43:00 AM
I have not advocated the genocide of Muslims around the world. I have advocated their complete subjugation. Nor do I apologise for that.

Oh come on. You've repeatedly said that you want to kill all muslims to prevent them from killing you.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 05, 2014, 12:15:36 PM
According to wiktravel.org:

Quote
Islam is the state religion of Saudi Arabia. Although no law specifically requires Saudi citizens or passport holders to be Muslim, public observance and proselytism of religions other than Islam are forbidden.

wikitravel.org/en/Saudi_Arabia

You are allowed to be in Saudi Arabia so long as you don't practice jeudaism.  Which shouldn't be hard for someone who spent two years as a Muslim.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 05, 2014, 01:14:18 PM
LORD DAVE, you have made my point for me. Thank you. VINDICTUS, ah, whatever.

PARSIFAL, you know, I'm not contesting the fact that I was banned. To be honest, I deserved it, at least the first time. I just believe that several other people deserved it along with me. I appreciate that my alt, as you put it, has been left alone. I am trying not to insult anyone here with it. I agree this is off-topic, which doesn't mean it can't be discussed here. However, I can slide on over to S&C if you like. BEFORE I do, I would ask that you read through the thread yourself, and for good measure, the one on ISIS and the Middle East, and observe the rampant, disgusting level of anti-Semitism you will find in both of them.

EDIT: It should be noted that when I am told that anti-Semitism is not against the rules, basically that means that my very identity as a person can be insulted and degraded, but I am not allowed to insult back. My immediate question to that is simple: what kind of BS is that? That sounds pretty damned unreasonable. So, read the above threads, and see just how insulting it got in both of them before you judge me too harshly. Then come talk to me in a private message if you wish, or here. I'm open to either. And do note that I do NOT question my banning. As I said, I deserved it, at least the first time. And then, if you ask me to go over to S&C, and point out specific posts, I'll be happy to do that. But try to be fair to me first.

After that, fire off a message to me, telling me HONESTLY what you think. If, after that, its necessary for me to go and manually point out what I'm talking about, I'll do that. But I figure you should be able to read reasonably well, and see this for yourself, since you seem to be a pretty smart fellow.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 05, 2014, 03:00:44 PM
And it should be pointed out, that yes, Israel has nukes. Sure. But could they ever use them? No. The time for Israel to actually use a nuke would be either too early or too late. Anyone it might consider using one against lives too close. The fallout would affect Israel itself. And if Israel used it, even without the above problem, it would be accused of starting a war. If it waited until it was attacked to use one, it would no longer matter. The victory would probably be pyrrhic. So Israel has them simply to say to other countries in the area, "Fine. Attack us. Destroy us. We will take your ass down with us, and most of our neighbours along with us both."

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 05, 2014, 04:03:41 PM
LORD DAVE, you have made my point for me. Thank you.
And what point did I make exactly?  Because last time I checked, you don't need to practice jeudaism to be a Jew.  You said something similar yourself.  So unless you wish to claim that you are physically incapable of not openky practicing your religion for a few days, you can visit Saudi Arabia just as I can.

Quote
PARSIFAL, you know, I'm not contesting the fact that I was banned. To be honest, I deserved it, at least the first time. I just believe that several other people deserved it along with me. I appreciate that my alt, as you put it, has been left alone. I am trying not to insult anyone here with it. I agree this is off-topic, which doesn't mean it can't be discussed here. However, I can slide on over to S&C if you like. BEFORE I do, I would ask that you read through the thread yourself, and for good measure, the one on ISIS and the Middle East, and observe the rampant, disgusting level of anti-Semitism you will find in both of them.
Anti-American isn't against the rules either.  And being jewish is a culture isn't it?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 05, 2014, 04:13:44 PM
I suggest that you refer to the law codes of Saudi Arabia. If you are known to be Jewish at all, you are not permitted to enter the Kingdom. Atheist Jews are no different than other Jews, or for that matter other atheists, since atheists can be executed for denial of God's existence. Furthermore, if you have ever visited Israel in such manner that your passport bears a stamp from that country, you also will not be permitted entry to Saudi Arabia for any reason whatsoever.

I am NOT going to take the time to hunt down the laws for you. If you want to do that, that is your problem, not mine. I already know Saudi law from discussion with Arabs at the Mosque. And no, I was never a Muslim. I studied it for two years. there is a difference.

Being Jewish is ethno-religious. That is the difference. It is more than just being a culture.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 05, 2014, 06:11:51 PM
I suggest that you refer to the law codes of Saudi Arabia. If you are known to be Jewish at all, you are not permitted to enter the Kingdom. Atheist Jews are no different than other Jews, or for that matter other atheists, since atheists can be executed for denial of God's existence. Furthermore, if you have ever visited Israel in such manner that your passport bears a stamp from that country, you also will not be permitted entry to Saudi Arabia for any reason whatsoever.

I am NOT going to take the time to hunt down the laws for you. If you want to do that, that is your problem, not mine. I already know Saudi law from discussion with Arabs at the Mosque. And no, I was never a Muslim. I studied it for two years. there is a difference.
Ooohhhh, so they did what you feel should be done to Muslims.  Guess they're just better than you at keeping "inferior" religions out eh?

Quote
Being Jewish is ethno-religious. That is the difference. It is more than just being a culture.
You have stated quite clearly that a Jew is still a Jew even if they don't practice.

I think you and Muslims are more alike than you want to admit.  In fact, aside from Muslims backing up their talk with action as well as astronger conviction to their faith,  I'm at a difficulty to see the difference between you and the average Muslim.
Guess that's how you blended so well eh?  Those Jewish traits just don't show in you do they?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: garygreen on October 05, 2014, 06:59:16 PM
big wall of text

So you've never visited an Arab nation.  Got it.

I'm not interested in discussing the Saudi monarchy or any other repressive government.  The fact that many Arabs live under oppressive regimes isn't to me a rational justification for advocating for violence against Arab citizens or speaking of them as subhumans. 

I'm interested in discussing your sole possible justification for advocating for violence, that Arabs represent an existential threat to Jews.  You claim that the Quran commands all non-Muslims to submit to Islam in conversion, taxation, or death.  You claim to be well-versed on the Quran, so perhaps you could point me to the relevant passages that demonstrate the accuracy of this characterization. 

I've been doing a bit of reading myself, and I have yet to find an academic source that agrees with you.  I keep finding descriptions like this one from Quran commentator Muhammad Asad: (http://muhammad-asad.com/Message-of-Quran.pdf)
Quote
The term jizyah, rendered by me as "exemption tax", occurs in the Qur'an only once, but its meaning and purpose have been fully explained in many authentic Traditions. It is intimately bound up with the concept of the Islamic state as an ideological organization: and this is a point which must always be borne in mind if the real purport of this tax is to be understood. In the Islamic state, every able-bodied Muslim is obliged to take up arms in jihad (i.e., in a just war in God's cause) whenever the freedom of his faith or the political safety of his community is imperilled: in other words, every able-bodied Muslim is liable to compulsory military service. Since this is, primarily, a religious obligation, non-Muslim citizens, who do not subscribe to the ideology of Islam, cannot in fairness be expected to assume a similar burden. On the other hand, they must be accorded full protection of all their civic rights and of their religious freedom: and it is in order to compensate the Muslim community for this unequal distribution of civic burdens that a special tax is levied on non-Muslim citizens (ahl adh-dhimmah, lit., "covenanted" [or "protected"] people", i.e., non-Muslims whose safety is statutorily assured by the Muslim community). Thus, jizyah is no more and no less than an
exemption tax in lieu of military service and in compensation for the "covenant of protection" (dhimmah) accorded to such citizens by the Islamic state. (The term itself is derived from the verb jazd, "he rendered [something] as a satisfaction", or "as a compensation [in lieu of something else]" - cf. Lane II, 422.)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: garygreen on October 05, 2014, 07:05:33 PM
Oh, and you're just plain wrong with all of this nonsense about Saudi Arabia.  Jews can travel to Saudi Arabia.  Israelis cannot.  They also won't let in anyone with an Israeli visa, but you can just request a duplicate passport from the State Dept.  Use duplicate to go to Israel.  Use regular one to go to Saudi Arabia.  Problem solved.  No one will try and kill you for being a Jew.  That's absurd.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 05, 2014, 10:20:47 PM
Saudi Law makes it clear that no Jew can enter the Kingdom for any reason whatsoever. In fact, during the first Gulf War, when our soldiers were there to defend them, that law had to be placed in temporary abeyance so that our soldiers who were Jewish would be allowed to be deployed there. My brother who was in the military was aware of this problem. So I would encourage you to get your facts straight on the matter.

I too, have read the argument you quoted regarding the Jizyah tax. Read the following for a response.

QUOTE: "Jews in Islamic Countries:
The Treatment of Jews
(Updated September 2011)

Jews in Islamic Countries: Table of Contents | Jewish Refugees | Arab Anti-Semitism

Print Friendly and PDF
   


Arabs sometimes claim that, as "Semites," they cannot possibly be anti-Semitic. This, however, is a semantic distortion that ignores the reality of Arab discrimination and hostility toward Jews. Arabs, like any other people, can indeed be anti-Semitic.

The term "anti-Semite" was coined in Germany in 1879 by Wilhelm Marr to refer to the anti-Jewish manifestations of the period and to give Jew-hatred a more scientific sounding name.(1) "Anti-Semitism" has been accepted and understood to mean hatred of the Jewish people.

While Jewish communities in Arab and Islamic countries fared better overall than those in Christian lands in Europe, Jews were no strangers to persecution and humiliation among the Arabs and Muslim. As Princeton University historian Bernard Lewis has written: "The Golden Age of equal rights was a myth, and belief in it was a result, more than a cause, of Jewish sympathy for Islam."(2)

Muhammad, the founder of Islam, traveled to Medina in 622 A.D. to attract followers to his new faith. When the Jews of Medina refused to convert and rejected Muhammad, two of the major Jewish tribes were expelled; in 627, Muhammad's followers killed between 600 and 900 of the men, and divided the surviving Jewish women and children amongst themselves.(3)

The Muslim attitude toward Jews is reflected in various verses throughout the Koran, the holy book of the Islamic faith. "They [the Children of Israel] were consigned to humiliation and wretchedness. They brought the wrath of God upon themselves, and this because they used to deny God's signs and kill His Prophets unjustly and because they disobeyed and were transgressors" (Sura 2:61). According to the Koran, the Jews try to introduce corruption (5:64), have always been disobedient (5:78), and are enemies of Allah, the Prophet and the angels (2:97­98).

The Dhimmi
Still, as "People of the Book," Jews (and Christians) are protected under Islamic law. The traditional concept of the "dhimma" ("writ of protection") was extended by Muslim conquerors to Christians and Jews in exchange for their subordination to the Muslims. Peoples subjected to Muslim rule usually had a choice between death and conversion, but Jews and Christians, who adhered to the Scriptures, were allowed as dhimmis (protected persons) to practice their faith. This "protection" did little, however, to insure that Jews and Christians were treated well by the Muslims. On the contrary, an integral aspect of the dhimma was that, being an infidel, he had to openly acknowledge the superiority of the true believer--the Muslim.

In the early years of the Islamic conquest, the "tribute" (or jizya), paid as a yearly poll tax, symbolized the subordination of the dhimmi. Later, the inferior status of Jews and Christians was reinforced through a series of regulations that governed the behavior of the dhimmi. Dhimmis, on pain of death, were forbidden to mock or criticize the Koran, Islam or Muhammad, to proselytize among Muslims or to touch a Muslim woman (though a Muslim man could take a non­Muslim as a wife).

Dhimmis were excluded from public office and armed service, and were forbidden to bear arms. They were not allowed to ride horses or camels, to build synagogues or churches taller than mosques, to construct houses higher than those of Muslims or to drink wine in public. They were not allowed to pray or mourn in loud voices-as that might offend the Muslims. The dhimmi had to show public deference toward Muslims-always yielding them the center of the road. The dhimmi was not allowed to give evidence in court against a Muslim, and his oath was unacceptable in an Islamic court. To defend himself, the dhimmi would have to purchase Muslim witnesses at great expense. This left the dhimmi with little legal recourse when harmed by a Muslim.(4)

Dhimmis were also forced to wear distinctive clothing. In the ninth century, for example, Baghdad's Caliph al-Mutawakkil designated a yellow badge for Jews, setting a precedent that would be followed centuries later in Nazi Germany.(5)

Violence Against Jews
At various times, Jews in Muslim lands were able to live in relative peace and thrive culturally and economically. The position of the Jews was never secure, however, and changes in the political or social climate would often lead to persecution, violence and death. Jews were generally viewed with contempt by their Muslim neighbors; peaceful coexistence between the two groups involved the subordination and degradation of the Jews.

When Jews were perceived as having achieved too comfortable a position in Islamic society, anti-Semitism would surface, often with devastating results: On December 30, 1066, Joseph HaNagid, the Jewish vizier of Granada, Spain, was crucified by an Arab mob that proceeded to raze the Jewish quarter of the city and slaughter its 5,000 inhabitants. The riot was incited by Muslim preachers who had angrily objected to what they saw as inordinate Jewish political power.

Similarly, in 1465, Arab mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in "an offensive manner." The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco.(6)

Other mass murders of Jews in Arab lands occurred in Morocco in the 8th century, where whole communities were wiped out by Muslim ruler Idris I; North Africa in the 12th century, where the Almohads either forcibly converted or decimated several communities; Libya in 1785, where Ali Burzi Pasha murdered hundreds of Jews; Algiers, where Jews were massacred in 1805, 1815 and 1830 and Marrakesh, Morocco, where more than 300 hundred Jews were murdered between 1864 and 1880.(7)

Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in Egypt and Syria (1014, 1293-4, 1301-2), Iraq (854-859, 1344) and Yemen (1676). Despite the Koran's prohibition, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death in Yemen (1165 and 1678), Morocco (1275, 1465 and 1790-92) and Baghdad (1333 and 1344).{8}

As distinguished Orientalist G.E. von Grunebaum has written:
It would not be difficult to put together the names of a very sizeable number of Jewish subjects or citizens of the Islamic area who have attained to high rank, to power, to great financial influence, to significant and recognized intellectual attainment; and the same could be done for Christians. But it would again not be difficult to compile a lengthy list of persecutions, arbitrary confiscations, attempted forced conversions, or pogroms.(9)

The situation of Jews in Arab lands reached a low point in the 19th century. Jews in most of North Africa (including Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and Morocco) were forced to live in ghettos. In Morocco, which contained the largest Jewish community in the Islamic Diaspora, Jews were made to walk barefoot or wear shoes of straw when outside the ghetto. Even Muslim children participated in the degradation of Jews, by throwing stones at them or harassing them in other ways. The frequency of anti-Jewish violence increased, and many Jews were executed on charges of apostasy. Ritual murder accusations against the Jews became commonplace in the Ottoman Empire.(10)

By the twentieth century, the status of the dhimmi in Muslim lands had not significantly improved. H.E.W. Young, British Vice Consul in Mosul, wrote in 1909:
The attitude of the Muslims toward the Christians and the Jews is that of a master towards slaves, whom he treats with a certain lordly tolerance so long as they keep their place. Any sign of pretension to equality is promptly repressed.(11)

The danger for Jews became even greater as a showdown approached in the UN over partition in 1947. The Syrian delegate, Faris el-Khouri, warned: "Unless the Palestine problem is settled, we shall have difficulty in protecting and safeguarding the Jews in the Arab world."(12)

More than a thousand Jews were killed in anti-Jewish rioting during the 1940's in Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Syria and Yemen.(13) This helped trigger the mass exodus of Jews from Arab countries.

Sources:
1. Vamberto Morais, A Short History of Anti-Semitism, (NY: W.W Norton and Co., 1976), p. 11; Bernard Lewis, Semites & Anti-Semites, (NY: WW Norton & Co., 1986), p. 81.
2. Bernard Lewis, "The Pro-Islamic Jews," Judaism, (Fall 1968), p. 401.
3. Bat Ye'or, The Dhimmi, (NJ: Fairleigh Dickinson University Press, 1985), pp. 43-44.
4. Bat Yeor, pp. 30, 56-57; Louis Gardet, La Cite Musulmane: Vie sociale et politique, (Paris: Etudes musulmanes, 1954), p. 348.
5. Bat Yeor, pp. 185-86, 191, 194.
6. Norman Stillman, The Jews of Arab Lands, (PA: The Jewish Publication Society of America, 1979), pp. 59, 284.
7. Maurice Roumani, The Case of the Jews from Arab Countries: A Neglected Issue, (Tel Aviv: World Organization of Jews from Arab Countries, 1977), pp. 26-27.
8. Bat Ye'or, p. 61
9. G.E. Von Grunebaum, "Eastern Jewry Under Islam," Viator, (1971), p. 369.
10. Bernard Lewis, The Jews of Islam, (NJ: Princeton University Press, 1984) p. 158.
11. Middle Eastern Studies, (1971), p. 232.
12. New York Times, (February 19, 1947).
13. Roumani, pp. 30-31."

Source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Jews_in_Arab_lands_(gen).html
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: garygreen on October 06, 2014, 04:05:24 AM
Saudi Law makes it clear that no Jew can enter the Kingdom for any reason whatsoever. In fact, during the first Gulf War, when our soldiers were there to defend them, that law had to be placed in temporary abeyance so that our soldiers who were Jewish would be allowed to be deployed there. My brother who was in the military was aware of this problem. So I would encourage you to get your facts straight on the matter.

Again, the actions of a theocratic, absolute monarchy are not rational reasons to advocate for violence against Arabs or to speak of them as subhumans.

That said, you're wrong.  I've watched you be wrong with my own eyes.  Israelis are not permitted into Saudi Arabia.  Anyone with an Israeli visa is not permitted into Saudi Arabia.  American citizens of any religion are typically permitted into Saudi Arabia.  Once there, no one will try to kill you for being a Jew.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2011/06/delta-saudia-arabia-and-jewish-travellers
Quote
It is true that some Jewish travelers—usually people who were born in Israel or who have evidence of travel to Israel on their passports—sometimes have trouble obtaining visas for Saudi Arabia and some other Middle Eastern countries. This is not a new development. But there are ways to get around the restriction, and Jewish travelers can fly to Saudi and have done so in the past.

That's cool that the Jewish Geocities Library compiled of a list of all the times some Arabs were shitty to some Jews, though.  Sweet paper.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 06, 2014, 04:55:03 AM
I'll keep that in mind the next time the law has to be put into abeyance so that American soldiers can defend the Kingdom. Granted, it is possible that the law has been in abeyance since 1991. But I do know that up to that date, a Jew could not enter the Kingdom, because they had to place Saudi laws into abeyance in order to permit our soldiers of Jewish Faith to do so. It is possible that this was never changed. Again, get your facts straight. And I will get mine up to date.

And I'll be sure that after I claim my Israeli Right of Return that I try to get around Saudi Law forbidding my entry to the Kingdom. Not that I have any desire to enter such a hole in the first place. But the point is not that. The point is to indicate that with the exception of Israel, most of the nations of the Middle East are savage pits of wrath where it basically sucks to be you unless you are a Muslim. Israel is the ONLY democracy in the Middle East, and the ONLY country that allows freedom of religion to its citizens. Even to the so-called "Palestinians", it allows considerable freedom, given that they are under military occupation. I have indicated that earlier in the thread.

Let's be honest, and call a spade a spade. Most ME countries live under some level of Sharia. Depending on the country, this can be more or less. Saudi Arabia represents one extreme, and Turkey represents the other. Most fall in the middle somewhere. But, with the exception of Turkey (and even they have been flirting with it a little), ME countries other than Israel expect their people to adhere to a code designed for the Seventh Century. Adultery? Cut your head off. You're a woman and you get raped? Well, too bad you can't prove it was rape, must have been your fault. Cut your head off, or at the very least, an honour killing. If you aren't a Muslim, well, it DEFINITELY sucks to be you. Welcome to Egypt, where it is a noted fact that Coptic girls are kidnapped every day and forcibly converted and married to their Muslim kidnappers.

The only country that treats its minorities at all well is Morocco, from what I understand. For whatever reason, the present King's father invited Jews to live in the Kingdom, and promised full civil rights. There are now 5,000 of them there. And they are treated well, I gather. Iran treats her minorities as second class citizens, but mostly leaves them be if they stay very quiet and duck.

So, out of all the countries in the Middle East, which is the only one that is civilised, and treats its citizens equally? Israel. There are Arabs serving in the Knesset. There are Arabs on the Supreme Court. There are Arabs who serve (voluntarily) in the IDF (they are NOT subject to the draft, as Jews are). All citizens in Israel are allowed to practice their faiths openly, and access to the Holy Sites are guaranteed.

So, don't whine to me about Muslims and Arabs until I start seeing countries like the KSA treat me with the same respect that Israel treats Arabs. Don't even go there with me.
Title: Is the Exodus True?
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 06, 2014, 06:49:53 AM
QUOTE: "Israel’s Population at the Exodus

What was the population of Israel at the Exodus from Egypt. When one looks at the figures given in the Bible, it appears that there could have been as many as two and a half million people (if one includes the women and the children). Is this possibly correct?
 
The Book of Numbers in two places (once at the beginning of the Exodus and again at the end) shows a population of adult males to number just over 600,000. There can be no doubt that these figures in both accounts in Numbers are correct, but this would not square with some other historical data that are found in the account of the Exodus. [See Appendix Six for information on this matter.]

The key to understand the true approximation of the number of people is given in the Bible itself. It concerns one census of people upon which all the rest hinges. What is that census? It is that of the firstborn. We are told how many firstborn there were from a month old and upwards (including even the oldest of the men who were firstborn, and remember that some actual firstborn children could be substituted with others if the need arose—Genesis 48:14; I Chronicles 5:1,2—even daughters could take on the role in certain cases—Numbers 27:1–11). The census of firstborn showed there were 22,273 (Numbers 3:40-43). This means there were that many firstborn who made up the population of Israel. Yet a full third of that number would have been underage and had yet produced no families of their own, and another third would have been old and beyond the age of child bearing and they would have fewer family members. If we say that about a third of the firstborn would have had families (male and female) under their control, then each family would (we are guessing here) might have 8 to 10 members in it. Eight to ten times the one third having families would equal about 70,000 people (and with youngsters and oldsters added to them it would be no more than 120,000 (not two and a half million).

And in the episode with the Moabites just before the Israelites entered the land of promise (Numbers 25:9) they lost 24,000 men (Paul said 23,000 but that was from the initial plague ("in one day," I Corinthians 10: eight) and not the 1000 or so that died afterwards. This reduced the population of Israel to about 95,000 people (both males and females) who crossed over the Jordan into the Land of Canaan. It is interesting that when the twelve tribes of Israel went to war with the Midianites near the end of the Exodus, Joshua asked for only 1000 men from each tribe (Numbers 31:1-5). This number fits in nicely with a total population of about 40,000 men who were capable of making war when Israel crossed the River Jordan. And what do we have Joshua telling us just after Israel crossed the Jordan and just before they attacked the city of Jericho? Notice it carefully. Joshua said: "About forty thousand prepared for war passed over before the Lord unto battle, to the plains of Jericho" (Joshua 4:13).

But what about the prodigious numbers of men mentioned in the two censuses (one at the beginning of the Exodus and the other at the end) which yielded just over 600,000 men, which would give a total population (with women and children) of about two and a half million? This can easily be understood if one will recognize a peculiar way the biblical people looked on their ancestors. Note this point carefully. When Abraham died, he was said to be "gathered to his people" (Genesis 25: eight). This same expression is said of others when they died. Ishmael (Genesis 25:17), Isaac (Genesis 35:29), Jacob (Genesis 49:33). And though Moses and Aaron were brothers, each of them were gathered to their own people (that is, people who were ascribed to them). Note how God said to Moses: "die in the mount whither you go up, and be gathered unto your people; as Aaron your brother died in mount Hor, and was gathered unto his people" (Deuteronomy 32:50). In the case of Jacob being "gathered to his people," he specifically requested that he be buried in the cave of his fathers in the land of Canaan because he and his posterity had inherited that cave and that land from the time of Abraham (Genesis 49:29-33).

The Bible tells us that God has what he calls "The Book of Life" (better, it means "The Book of the Living" and it is so rendered in Psalm 69:28). This book in heaven contained the names of the righteous dead (as well as those then alive and in good standing in the community of Israel), but it was still called "The Book of the Living" even though the majority of people written in the book were in fact dead. Among those in the book were the people of Abraham (who were worthy), those of Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron etc., etc. Now the genealogical tables maintained by the Israelites were similar. Note that when Moses asked for the number of the men at the census in Israel, he asked the leaders of the tribes to "declare their PEDIGREES after their families" (Numbers 1:18). In the census of just over 600,000 men, the total number also included all the names they had in the genealogical tables (who were also destined in the resurrection to inherit the Land of Canaan) who were their ancestors—the dead as well as the living.

The apostle Paul used this same principle in reverse when he stated that Levi was in the loins of Abraham his father (though he was a fourth generation descendant) when Abraham met Melchizedek (Hebrews 7:9,10). This aggregate number of people (both living and dead) recorded in the genealogical tables and counted in the censuses of Israel reached back to include Abraham and all his early family, because when Abraham died even he was "gathered to his people" (Genesis 25: eight). Yes, even the earlier ancestors of Abraham were included, and the tables no doubt embraced various family names (this is, pedigrees) that could have reached back to Noah, and even to Adam himself.

When Jacob went to Egypt there were about 70 people who went with him (Exodus 1:5), but they multiplied exceedingly (Exodus 1:7). In five or six generations, until the time of Moses, there could have been almost 500,000 Israelite men who were living when Moses was born. At that time, Pharaoh began to kill the males of the Israelites when they were born (though the midwives at first did not obey Pharaoh— Exodus 1:17) and there was a great reduction in Israelite population just before the Exodus. However, if one would count all the Israelites from the time of Jacob unto Moses (counting the names in "the pedigrees" as Moses commanded) and add the number of Israelites at the Exodus about 120,000, then the figures given in the two censuses can be reasonably understood. In a word, the Israelites counted the names of their pedigrees (the Israelites and their ancestors who were dead but still to inherit the land)."

Source: http://www.askelm.com/secrets/sec095.htm

QUOTE: "The Population at the Exodus

In Question Ninety-Five I answer the so-called problem of the population of Israel at the Exodus that has given people so much trouble over the centuries. To keep my answer short for the question itself, I did not present some of the problems that scholars have had to face if one takes the men of the two censuses to be living men who accompanied Moses with the rest of the Israelites out of Egypt. We get into imponderable difficulties if we do so. The answer I give in Question Ninety-Five presents the most reasonable explanation of this matter. But let us look at some of the problems that Question Ninety-Five attempts to answer.

In the first place, when Israel left Egypt they had 603,550 armed men for war if all of those men were living at the time (Numbers 1:46). This number included all able bodied men from the age of twenty (Numbers 1:45) to the age of retirement at year fifty (Numbers 4:3;John 8:57) or sometimes sixty (Leviticus 27:7). But if all the women, children and older people over fifty (or sixty) are included, the number of Israelites who left Egypt must have numbered about two and a half million. This is a vast amount of people going into a desolate desert area east of Egypt. Let us assume for a moment that all the men of the census were indeed living at the time and were not a part of the pedigree records that were mentioned by Moses which also included (the dead and the living). Let us look at the difficulties if we reckon all the men as then living.

Moses took the Israelites along the regular roads of communication. They went by “the way [highway] of the wilderness of the Red Sea” (Exodus 13:18); “the way [highway] of Mount Seir unto Kadesh-barnea” (Deuteronomy 1:2); “and the king’s highway” (Numbers 21:22). These roads in the latter part of their journey connected various settlements with water wells, springs and mountain passes. They were usually constructed by governments for military and commercial purposes. The ancient roads were similar to ones today in their routings but they had no asphalt coverings for high speed transport. They were normally graded roadbeds which wagons or caravans could use. Israel used the well-traveled roads in their journeys from Egypt to Palestine. And herein comes the first difficulty.

When our American west was being settled, wagon trains followed the various trails. A typical wagon train could have had some 250 people in it and was a quarter of a mile or so in length. Thus, if a wagon train were extended to a mile in length, there could theoretically be nearly 1000 people in it (though in practical terms there would no doubt be less). But Israel supposedly numbered two and a half million people if all the people of the censuses were then living. But Moses promised the king of Edom that “we will not pass through the fields, or vineyard. . .we will not turn to the right hand nor to the left” (Numbers 20:17). In other words, Moses said that Israel would stay directly on the narrow road through the country of Edom. If one mile of road could hold about 1000 Israelites with wagons, etc. (which is very reasonable), then the length of the Israelite march would be at least 2,500 miles long. Such a length of people would stretch from Egypt to the border of China. This, of course, is hardly possible. Even if the wagons went ten abreast, the train would still be 250 miles long. If they journeyed a hundred wagon abreast, such a massive wagon train of Israelites would still be 25 miles long. As anyone can see, Israel would never have been able to stay on the roads with such a mass of people. Yet Moses told the king of Edom that Israel would never step off a single road through his territory.

A Further Difficulty

After traveling some six weeks into a desolate wilderness, the Israelites came in contact with the Amalekite army (Exodus 17: eight). Israel had in their army no less than 600,000 men (that is, if the men were all living men)—more than all the combined armed forces of Great Britain today. And yet, the armies of Amalek were able to defeat Israel while the hands of Moses remained unlifted (Exodus 17:11). Israel finally prevailed and conquered the Amalekites. But herein lies a problem. For any army to defeat another in normal combat, the winning army usually has a superior force. Were there also some 600,000 Amalekite soldiers out in the middle of the Sinai desert as well? While Israel had miraculous water and food to sustain them alive in such a desolate environment, did the heathen Amalekites also have the miraculous food and water supplies? How could such a vast heathen army provide for itself in such hostile conditions?

Of course, with the explanation that I have given in Question Ninety-Five, this is not a problem of importance.

Another Dilemma

If all those 600,000 men were living men, then we have other difficulties. Soon after the defeat of the Amalekite army, Jethro, the father-in-law of Moses, met him not far from Mt. Sinai (Exodus 18). Jethro was amazed that Moses had yet to establish a chain of command in judging Israel. He hastened him to initiate a rulership of men over thousands, hundreds, fifties and tens (Exodus 18:21) so that Moses would not be worn out by trying to settle all the judicial affairs of 2 1/2 million people. But this information represents a major problem. Israel had already been on their journey some six weeks and they numbered about the size of the city of Los Angeles on the move (that is, as I have been pointing out, if the men were all living men). Would it not be impossible to muster such a prodigious quantity of people into some kind of orderly march without various chains of command already established? This is a major difficulty as anyone would admit who looks closely at the matter.

Another Perplexity

After wondering forty years in the wilderness, Israel invaded the land of Canaan under the leadership of Joshua. Though all the first men of war died in the wilderness, a new generation of Israelite men numbering 601,730 were armed for war (Numbers 26). This means there were still about two and a half million people who crossed the River Jordan and were responsible for capturing the city of Jericho (again, if all the men were living men). But this does not square with the facts. Look at this.

The ruins of Jericho (the city that Joshua conquered) are still to be seen today. There can be no doubt of the identification of the site. When I have taken people to Israel and show the ruins of ancient Jericho, they express amazement at its smallness. It’s an area of about ten acres. Professor Kenyon, who excavated the site from 1952 to 1956, says that the greatest population that Jericho could possibly have had was 3,000 souls. The area of Jericho was a little under two square city blocks. If we allow that Jericho had a population of 3,000 people, then the Israelites would have outnumbered those Canaanite residents over 800 to one if all the men were living. Some have wondered why God had to cause the walls to tumble down when Israel had such an extraordinary advantage.

Let’s put it another way. On New Year’s Day in Pasadena, California there is the annual Rose Bowl football game. About 106,000 people can sit in the stadium bleachers. Suppose the ancient city of Jericho were placed in the center of the Rose Bowl stadium, one would have to have 24 times the New Year’s spectators to equal the amount of Israelites who conquered little Jericho. No miracle would have been necessary to subdue Jericho.

The former Prime Minister of modern Israel, David Ben-Gurion, saw the problem of having so many men as recorded in the censuses. He thought his ancient forefathers of the Exodus did not number 600,000 armed men for the war, but only 600. If that were so, the logistical problems associated with the above examples could be better dealt with. However, with only 600 Israelite soldiers leaving Egypt (or some 2,500 people when the women, children, and older people are included), the Egyptian Pharaoh could hardly have said “Behold, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we” (Exodus 1:9). BenGurion’s suggestion would also be counter to Bible information which says Jethro, Moses’ father-in-law, told Moses to divide up judicial responsibility among the Israelites into thousands, hundreds, fifties, and tens (Exodus 18:21). The thousands that Jethro had reference to certainly represent more than 600.

And there are further problems. Some scholars have shown that since Jethro did not suggest that Moses place rulers over “a hundred thousand,” over “fifty thousand,” or even over “ten thousand,” Jethro may have been aware that Moses’ army of men were less than ten thousand in number. This is because Jethro’s suggestion started out only with thousands (and then downward). However, we are told that 40,000 (not 600,000) did in fact cross the Jordan River (Joshua 4:13).

These are some examples of some of the problems with Israel’s population at the Exodus if one does not read what Moses said carefully. Indeed, Moses was including in each of the censuses the pedigrees of the Israelites (and these genealogical tables listed people with the living Israelites who could have numbered the actual amount of men Moses mentioned). In truth, Moses included the dead (the pedigrees) as well as those living in his census accounts. This means that even though the dead were dead, they still were reckoned by Moses (and by God) as having their inheritance along with the living Israelites to the Land of Canaan. This was simply a way in which all were guaranteed their right of inheritance, and in the resurrection from the dead which will occur under the leadership of the new Joshua (Jesus, that is Christ Jesus), all Israel and all Christians will indeed inherit the promises. Read Question Ninety-Five again for the biblical answer to these so-called problems."

Source: http://www.askelm.com/secrets/sec107.htm

Although this is a Christian response, it contains much good information, so I thought I would include it here. Please note that I have written the number "8" as "eight" because the machine kept registering it as an emoticon.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 06, 2014, 07:25:18 AM
tl;dr
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on October 06, 2014, 05:35:07 PM
The Buddhist treatment of Christians in Burma is sufficient justification for my serial killings of American Buddhists (note for law enforcement officers: this is an analogy. I am not actually a serial killer)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 06, 2014, 10:16:28 PM
sandokhan is yaakov's alt.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 06, 2014, 10:26:14 PM
I freely admit that Yonah and Yaakov are the same person. But I don't know Sandokhan at all.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 07, 2014, 08:09:07 AM
There used to be a muslim on the old site for some time. I'm sure you two would have gotten along well.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 07, 2014, 08:35:18 AM
Ah, I remember him! Can't remember the name though.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 07, 2014, 08:46:58 AM
It was something muslimy.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spanner34.5 on October 07, 2014, 11:18:06 AM
QUOTE: "Anyone promoting genital mutilation of children, male or female, should be banned forever. Consenting adults should be allowed to mutilate themselves, if they wish. Subjecting minors is just plain wrong!"

 Ok. Let's deal with this rude and immature comment first, shall we (NOTE TO CENSORS: Not an insult to the person who made the remarks, but rather a commentary on the remarks themselves; there is a difference)?

Point One: 1. I am sure that if you looked up the word "bris" in a Hebrew dictionary, you would get a different definition. Point Two: 2. Male circumcision is practiced by non-Jews often in the USA as a health measure to aid in the cleaning of the penis. It causes very little or no pain, and in no way damages the penis. FGM, on the other hand, serves no valid purposes, is not backed by ANY religious practices whatsoever, and causes permanent and lasting harm to the female genitalia, aside from being horrifically painful. Conclusion: My advice, Spanner, would be to grow up, and cease to be an anti-Semitic, uninformed child, and begin to act like an adult (NOTE TO CENSORS: Also not an insult, but rather, a fair observation on the maturity or lack thereof of a person). That would benefit us all.
An interesting rant. I have never posted anything anti-semitic and never will.

I will react no more to someone whose opinion I despise.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 07, 2014, 12:40:59 PM
Ok, let me break it down for you. Anybody who can't figure out the difference between FGM and standard male circumcision can be clearly defined as anti-Semitic. Anyone who would illegalise one of the primary rituals of our Faith can be defined as an anti-Semite. I don't know how you get around either of those two things. Ergo, you are posting things that are anti-Semitic. Ergo, you are an anti-Semite. I am not trying to insult you, I am just defining what you are.

I don't care whether you respond to me or not. That sounds like a personal issue if you ask me. By not responding to me, you have acknowledged the superiority of my argument. Thank you. Have a pleasant day.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 07, 2014, 01:55:59 PM
Saddam, you are illogical. No further comment is necessary. And by the way: Godwin's Law. You lose.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 07, 2014, 05:59:38 PM
Ok. Now that the ban has expired, I shall return as Yaakov, with thanks to the Censors for allowing me to be Yonah. I shall attempt to behave myself as Yaakov. Let me assure my mates here that Yonah is indeed Yaakov, but there are no other alts out there. As you can see, I'm not very good at pretending to be someone else. :)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on October 07, 2014, 06:21:47 PM
We're allowed to completely circumvent our bans with alts?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 07, 2014, 06:24:20 PM
We're allowed to completely circumvent our bans with alts?

No.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 07, 2014, 06:24:30 PM
Is that a question for a Jew, or just a general question directed to no one in particular? If the latter, please stay on topic and ask a Jew anything.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 07, 2014, 06:25:03 PM
Alex, I suspect the answer to that is generally, No. I think they were tolerant of me because they might have realised that I would shut up. They happened to be right. Plus, they realised they could shut me up if I stepped out of line even slightly. I chose not to. I wouldn't try it, if I were you.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on October 07, 2014, 06:27:26 PM
We're allowed to completely circumvent our bans with alts?

No.

Did you and the other censors arrange a special agreement for Yonah/Yaakov, then?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 07, 2014, 06:31:02 PM
We're allowed to completely circumvent our bans with alts?

No.

Did you and the other censors arrange a special agreement for Yonah/Yaakov, then?

He didn't circumvent a ban.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 07, 2014, 06:32:16 PM
Ok, there's a conspiracy going on then.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 07, 2014, 06:33:28 PM
Of course there is, Dodo. The world is flat! There are evil people who want to make us believe it is round! Haven't you heard that yet? *GRIN*
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on October 07, 2014, 06:33:33 PM
He didn't circumvent a ban.

Yaakov was banned again on Oct. 4th. He registered as Yonah the same day and continued posting.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 07, 2014, 06:35:52 PM
He didn't circumvent a ban.

Yaakov was banned again on Oct. 4th. He registered as Yonah the same day and continued posting.

Indeed, as there was no ban imposed on Yonah. What did he circumvent, exactly?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 07, 2014, 06:36:44 PM
Yaakov was banned. Whoever is in control of Yaakov created Yonah to circumvent the ban on his original account. Are you trying to say that Yaakov and Yonah are not the same person??  ???

The plot thickens.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on October 07, 2014, 06:37:23 PM
He didn't circumvent a ban.

Yaakov was banned again on Oct. 4th. He registered as Yonah the same day and continued posting.

Indeed, as there was no ban imposed on Yonah. What did he circumvent, exactly?

I thought the purpose of a ban was to keep a particular person from posting for a certain amount of time, not a particular account.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 07, 2014, 06:39:22 PM
He didn't circumvent a ban.

Yaakov was banned again on Oct. 4th. He registered as Yonah the same day and continued posting.

Indeed, as there was no ban imposed on Yonah. What did he circumvent, exactly?

I thought the purpose of a ban was to keep a particular person from posting for a certain amount of time, not a particular account.

Not this ban.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 07, 2014, 06:40:44 PM
In short, Yaakov makes up 75% of the this entire forum's discussions. If he was banned this whole place would cease to function. You guys made the right choice.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 07, 2014, 07:04:05 PM
Yaakov, why do you think theists gets so offended when people offend their religion, when literally no one gives a crap when theists offends atheism?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 07, 2014, 07:05:41 PM
Because there's about 1 atheist (not non-religious) to every 10 theists in pretty much every country around the world.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 07, 2014, 07:07:49 PM
Because there's about 1 atheist (not non-religious) to every 10 theists in pretty much every country around the world.

Um, no. A lot of European countries are 50%+ atheist.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 07, 2014, 07:08:50 PM
Because there's about 1 atheist (not non-religious) to every 10 theists in pretty much every country around the world.

Um, no. A lot of European countries are 50%+ atheist.

Atheist or non-religious? Regardless, everyone knows America is the whole world, eurofag.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 07, 2014, 07:11:51 PM
Because there's about 1 atheist (not non-religious) to every 10 theists in pretty much every country around the world.

Um, no. A lot of European countries are 50%+ atheist.

Atheist or non-religious? Regardless, everyone knows America is the whole world, eurofag.

Atheistic religions aren't particularly common in Europe, so I don't know why you're asking.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 07, 2014, 07:13:34 PM
BEARDO, it really depends on where you live, and what kind of theist you are. If you live in say, Pakistan, and you're a Catholic, you'd better not get offended at anything, or you will rapidly be told to shut the fuck up and do what your told by the Muslim majority, and if you don't like it, you will go bye-bye real quick. If you live in Ireland, and you are a Jew, you won't go bye-bye, but if you make your objections known too loudly, you will experience considerable social pressure to conform by shutting the fuck up.

If you live in Estonia, which is one of the most atheist countries in the world, nobody really gives a flaming fuck who says what. And anybody who gets too nasty, irrespective of their beliefs or lack thereof tends to get laughed at. In this country (the US), most Americans are theistic. We also have the highest "church" attendance of any Western nation in the world. I put the word "church" in quotes because I mean churches, temples, synagogues, etc. 86% of our population claims to be Christian. 46% attends a house of worship of some sort 2 times a month or more. In an environment like that, being an atheist is not likely to be easy, except in certain environments, like college campuses, which are known for their liberalism. I think you get my point.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Snupes on October 07, 2014, 09:22:31 PM
Because there's about 1 atheist (not non-religious) to every 10 theists in pretty much every country around the world.

Um, no. A lot of European countries are 50%+ atheist.

Atheist or non-religious? Regardless, everyone knows America is the whole world, eurofag.

Atheistic religions aren't particularly common in Europe, so I don't know why you're asking.
Are you implying that if someone is non-religious, they have to be atheist?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 07, 2014, 11:12:19 PM
It's an important distinction, I'm sure many people here identify as non-religious but not atheist. Sometimes they're still counted a Christian despite not practicing/believing.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Snupes on October 07, 2014, 11:24:50 PM
Or would consider themselves deist or something.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 07, 2014, 11:27:43 PM
It's an important distinction, I'm sure many people here identify as non-religious but not atheist. Sometimes they're still counted a Christian despite not practicing/believing.

Some of us also practice Agnostic-atheist-new-age-Christianism.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 07, 2014, 11:43:25 PM
And by 'here' I meant Australia. Most people here are atheist heathens.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 08, 2014, 01:35:28 AM
Ok, let me break it down for you. Anybody who can't figure out the difference between FGM and standard male circumcision can be clearly defined as anti-Semitic.
So ignorance of medical procedures is anti-jew now?  Damn.  At this rate simply being non-jew will be anti-jew.

Quote
Anyone who would illegalise one of the primary rituals of our Faith can be defined as an anti-Semite.

Not all who are circumsized are Jews.  Therefore it is not Jew specific and can not be considered an attack on your faith.  Much like making alcohol illegal isn't an attack on communion.  (Wine is the blood of Jesus and all that)
Quote
I don't know how you get around either of those two things. Ergo, you are posting things that are anti-Semitic. Ergo, you are an anti-Semite. I am not trying to insult you, I am just defining what you are.
I was wrong, the next step is to label anything YOU don't understand as anti-jew.  I'd hate to be an astrophysicist in Israel right now.

Quote
I don't care whether you respond to me or not. That sounds like a personal issue if you ask me. By not responding to me, you have acknowledged the superiority of my argument. Thank you. Have a pleasant day.
For someone who says they don't care what others think, you seem to be very sensitive to what we say.  Almost as though your trying to prove your superiority yet can't understand why everyone isn't agreeing with you.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 08, 2014, 01:48:32 AM
Question: why do you call Jew haters anti-semite when Semite refers to more than just Jews and the person who associated anti-semite (incorrectly) to only be about Jew hating was a proto Nazi?  Why not just say "anti-jew" and deny the Nazis of their word?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 08, 2014, 04:30:15 AM
Question: why do you call Jew haters anti-semite when Semite refers to more than just Jews and the person who associated anti-semite (incorrectly) to only be about Jew hating was a proto Nazi?  Why not just say "anti-jew" and deny the Nazis of their word?

The rest of what you said wasn't worth a response. This, however, is a worthwhile question. Whatever I may think of the origin of the word, the fact remains that, in the English language, and in several others, the word "anti-Semite" has come to be accepted as being the appropriate word to describe a person who despises Jews. It doesn't matter that the term is not scientific. Its just like the fact that we still tend to divide the human species into races, even though most of us know that race itself has no meaningful relevance from an anthropological or scientific point of view.

The fact that the term "anti-Semite" refers to a person who hates Jews, even if that person is an Arab, and is therefore a Semite, is not my problem. Welcome to the joys of the language.

QUOTE: "MYTH

“Arabs cannot be anti-Semitic as they are themselves Semites.”

FACT

The term “anti-Semite” was coined in Germany in 1879 by Wilhelm Marr to refer to the anti-Jewish manifestations of the period and to give Jew-hatred a more scientific sounding name.1 “Anti-Semitism” has been accepted and understood to mean hatred of the Jewish people. Dictionaries define the term as: “Theory, action, or practice directed against the Jews” and “Hostility towards Jews as a religious or racial minority group, often accompanied by social, economic and political discrimination.”2

The claim that Arabs as “Semites” cannot possibly be anti-Semitic is a semantic distortion that ignores the reality of Arab discrimination and hostility toward Jews. Arabs, like any other people, can indeed be anti-Semitic.

“The Arab world is the last bastion of unbridled, unashamed, unhidden and unbelievable anti-Semitism. Hitlerian myths get published in the popular press as incontrovertible truths. The Holocaust either gets minimized or denied....How the Arab world will ever come to terms with Israel when Israelis are portrayed as the devil incarnate is hard to figure out.”

— Columnist Richard Cohen3

1Vamberto Morais, A Short History of Anti-Semitism, (NY: W.W Norton and Co., 1976), p. 11; Bernard Lewis, Semites & Anti-Semites, (NY: WW Norton &Co., 1986), p. 81.
2Oxford English Dictionary; Webster’s Third International Dictionary.
3Washington Post, (October 30, 2001)."


Source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFtreatment.html#n1
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 08, 2014, 04:31:35 AM
Because there's about 1 atheist (not non-religious) to every 10 theists in pretty much every country around the world.

Um, no. A lot of European countries are 50%+ atheist.

Atheist or non-religious? Regardless, everyone knows America is the whole world, eurofag.

Atheistic religions aren't particularly common in Europe, so I don't know why you're asking.
Are you implying that if someone is non-religious, they have to be atheist?

No.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 08, 2014, 05:10:11 AM
QUOTE: "Are you implying that if someone is non-religious, they have to be atheist?"

"No." END QUOTE.

This is an interesting discussion. What exactly constitutes "Religious" vs "Observant" vs "Spiritual" vs anything else, for that matter? Lets look at the three words I've quoted specifically.

Religious: People normally associate this word with a person who belongs to an established denomination (in the US, Christianity, but it can apply to non-Christian beliefs as well) of a Faith, and who observes its beliefs, and follows its doctrinal rules strictly. Often times, these are people who pray in response to issues, and they expect a response from God as a result of their religiosity. So, in the case of a religious Jew, if his car goes off a bridge, and he prays to survive, and in fact does, he will account it to prayers answered due to his religiosity.

Observant: This word generally is associated with people, particularly Jews, who observe the rituals of their Faith with extreme punctuality, not because they expect a response from God, but because they have been told to do so by the Deity, irrespective of His response or lack thereof. Therefore, if the Observant Jew goes off the bridge, and lives to tell about it, he probably won't choose to account it to God. In other words, he believes in God, but is hardly arrogant enough to think that God plans his day around his troubles. He will account his living to the fact that he managed to get the door open fast enough to get the hell out of the damned car before it sank.

Spiritual: This describes a person who believes in a Higher Power of some sort, but essentially creates his own belief structure. It is very hard to categorise this person, because there are as many types of "spirituality" as their are "spiritual persons". The word can be used in a more orthodox sense to refer to the spirituality of the Catholic Church, or Tibetan Buddhists, or Sunni Muslims, or the Jews, or what have you, but for the purpose of this discussion, we will use the first definition, in opposition to the first two words above. If the spiritual person goes off the bridge and lives, he will probably thank the divine spark within him for keeping his spirit alive to do more good for others that much longer, or some such thing as that. It differs with each "spiritual person".

In a nutshell, there you have it, friends.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 08, 2014, 07:13:46 AM
Question: why do you call Jew haters anti-semite when Semite refers to more than just Jews and the person who associated anti-semite (incorrectly) to only be about Jew hating was a proto Nazi?  Why not just say "anti-jew" and deny the Nazis of their word?

The rest of what you said wasn't worth a response.
I'm glad you admit the superiority of my argument.  Thanks. :)

Quote
This, however, is a worthwhile question. Whatever I may think of the origin of the word, the fact remains that, in the English language, and in several others, the word "anti-Semite" has come to be accepted as being the appropriate word to describe a person who despises Jews. It doesn't matter that the term is not scientific. Its just like the fact that we still tend to divide the human species into races, even though most of us know that race itself has no meaningful relevance from an anthropological or scientific point of view.

The fact that the term "anti-Semite" refers to a person who hates Jews, even if that person is an Arab, and is therefore a Semite, is not my problem. Welcome to the joys of the language.

QUOTE: "MYTH

“Arabs cannot be anti-Semitic as they are themselves Semites.”

FACT

The term “anti-Semite” was coined in Germany in 1879 by Wilhelm Marr to refer to the anti-Jewish manifestations of the period and to give Jew-hatred a more scientific sounding name.1 “Anti-Semitism” has been accepted and understood to mean hatred of the Jewish people. Dictionaries define the term as: “Theory, action, or practice directed against the Jews” and “Hostility towards Jews as a religious or racial minority group, often accompanied by social, economic and political discrimination.”2

The claim that Arabs as “Semites” cannot possibly be anti-Semitic is a semantic distortion that ignores the reality of Arab discrimination and hostility toward Jews. Arabs, like any other people, can indeed be anti-Semitic.

“The Arab world is the last bastion of unbridled, unashamed, unhidden and unbelievable anti-Semitism. Hitlerian myths get published in the popular press as incontrovertible truths. The Holocaust either gets minimized or denied....How the Arab world will ever come to terms with Israel when Israelis are portrayed as the devil incarnate is hard to figure out.”

— Columnist Richard Cohen3

1Vamberto Morais, A Short History of Anti-Semitism, (NY: W.W Norton and Co., 1976), p. 11; Bernard Lewis, Semites & Anti-Semites, (NY: WW Norton &Co., 1986), p. 81.
2Oxford English Dictionary; Webster’s Third International Dictionary.
3Washington Post, (October 30, 2001)."


Source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFtreatment.html#n1
So if anti-semite eventually came to mean the proper term (anyone whose language root is Semite) then will you call yourself anti-semite as you hate Palestinians who are part of this group?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 08, 2014, 11:13:15 AM
It's an important distinction, I'm sure many people here identify as non-religious but not atheist. Sometimes they're still counted a Christian despite not practicing/believing.

Often people "count as Christian" because they are members of a church due to having been born that way. I, for instance, am legally a Christian because I'm a member of the evangelical Lutheran church of Finland, but I also happen to be an atheist because I don't believe in God, which happens to be the only necessary factor in atheism.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 08, 2014, 11:20:02 AM
It's an important distinction, I'm sure many people here identify as non-religious but not atheist. Sometimes they're still counted a Christian despite not practicing/believing.

Often people "count as Christian" because they are members of a church due to having been born that way. I, for instance, am legally a Christian because I'm a member of the evangelical Lutheran church of Finland, but I also happen to be an atheist because I don't believe in God, which happens to be the only necessary factor in atheism.
Ever thought about canceling your membership? I did it a couple of years ago.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 08, 2014, 11:21:07 AM
I don't remember if I'm a Christian. I didn't do communion at school and I'm not sure if I was baptised church of England.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 08, 2014, 11:24:52 AM
It's an important distinction, I'm sure many people here identify as non-religious but not atheist. Sometimes they're still counted a Christian despite not practicing/believing.

Often people "count as Christian" because they are members of a church due to having been born that way. I, for instance, am legally a Christian because I'm a member of the evangelical Lutheran church of Finland, but I also happen to be an atheist because I don't believe in God, which happens to be the only necessary factor in atheism.
Ever thought about canceling your membership? I did it a couple of years ago.

I've thought about it, but I don't really care enough to go through with it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 08, 2014, 12:48:25 PM
Those State Churches can be a real bitch. You are automatically a member unless you take the time and trouble to say you are not. At least in Scandinavia. The English and the Scottish Churches are not that way, to my knowledge. But the Lutheran State Churches  of Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Iceland can b e a pain to get out of, because legally you are born into them.

LORD DAVE, actually, no, you have no argument. Hence, no need to respond.

Regarding your proposal on the evolution of the word "anti-Semite", that is also a non-argument, since the word is highly unlikely to ever make such an evolution. Ergo, I am not going to have to worry about it. I already despise "Palestinians", and have never denied it. That, in present day parlance, makes me anti-"Palestinian", and possibly anti-Arab, although I have less of a problem with non-"Palestinian" Arabs.

Lets face it. Even other Arabs despise the "Palestinians". The only reason "Palestinians" have any support at all in the world is because Arabs hate Jews more than they despise the "Palestinians". But if the Jews did not exist, no self-respecting Arab would want anything to do with a "Palestinian", who at the best are classified as half-breeds by other Arabs, given their Canaanite heritage, and at worst are basically considered to be lower than the dust. I'm not trying to be insulting or nasty. I'm just telling it like it is.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 08, 2014, 12:59:28 PM
LORD DAVE, actually, no, you have no argument. Hence, no need to respond.
Denial won't help you in the long run.

Quote
Regarding your proposal on the evolution of the word "anti-Semite", that is also a non-argument, since the word is highly unlikely to ever make such an evolution. Ergo, I am not going to have to worry about it. I already despise "Palestinians", and have never denied it. That, in present day parlance, makes me anti-"Palestinian", and possibly anti-Arab, although I have less of a problem with non-"Palestinian" Arabs.

Lets face it. Even other Arabs despise the "Palestinians". The only reason "Palestinians" have any support at all in the world is because Arabs hate Jews more than they despise the "Palestinians". But if the Jews did not exist, no self-respecting Arab would want anything to do with a "Palestinian", who at the best are classified as half-breeds by other Arabs, given their Canaanite heritage, and at worst are basically considered to be lower than the dust. I'm not trying to be insulting or nasty. I'm just telling it like it is.
Language changes often so its quite likely that the meaning of the word will change.  Hopefully before you die.

Also: why is it OK to be anti-muslim but jot anti-jew? 
And: do you feels Jews are given special treatment because of the holocaust and if so, is that fair?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 08, 2014, 01:34:41 PM
Its ok to be anti-Muslim because they have a habit of blowing shit up and taking hostages when they don't like something. We don't. Neither do the Christians. As for the question regarding the Holocaust, I won't deny, sometimes we ARE given a pass because of it, the same way Negroes in the USA are given a pass because of slavery.

Is that fair? Well, it depends what you are being given a pass for. If you are being given a pass for bad behaviour, then no, it is not fair, and I shall acknowledge that some Jews do act like alter kackers and then excuse it on grounds of the victim mentality. My response to that is, "Dude! Grow the fuck up! The Holocaust ended 69 years ago. Quit whining."

Now, what about the nation of Israel? I only have a few minutes before I have to leave, so let me make this quick. The State of Israel is NOT perfect. One can, and should, be willing to criticise, or listen to constructive criticisms of the various policies of the State of Israel without automatically screaming "anti-Semitism!".

HOWEVER, and this is key, there is a difference between constructive criticism, and criticism for its own sake. To criticise Israel constructively is once thing. To criticise it because it is Israel is something yet again, and that IS anti-Semitism, and needs to be called out as such.

Israel is, facts be known, one of the kindest occupying powers in the history of the world. I challenge anybody to find me an occupying power that would allow the occupied to criticise the leaders of the occupiers, to sue in the occupier's supreme court, to request review of any action the occupying military takes, etc. You will be hard-pressed to find any occupying power in the world other than Israel that permits this.

I challenge anyone to find me a more moral army than Israel's. Israel does everything it can to try to get civilians out of the way, by dropping leaflets, by phone calls, text messages, roof knocking... find me another army that does the same.

Now, is the IDF perfect? NO! When it fucks up, should it be called out? YES! I think every Jew, Israeli and otherwise, would agree. But all told, Israel as a nation, and its army, are a helluva lot more moral than just about any other country you are going to find.

So, do some Jews demand unfair treatment because of the Holocaust? Yes. Is that unfair? Damn straight it is, and they should learn to shut the fuck up, because they make us ALL look bad. But we are NOT all that way. I have to go. I'll be back later today. See you then.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 08, 2014, 02:15:24 PM
Its ok to be anti-Muslim because they have a habit of blowing shit up and taking hostages when they don't like something.
So it's ok to be anti-x if they do things you don't like?  What if they started blowing up say... nazis?  You'd have to still be anti-muslim right?  Because they're blowing shit up and taking hostages when they don't like Nazis?  Or maybe Palistinians?  What if they blew them up and took hostages?  Wouldn't you have to still be anti-muslim?  And what about American Muslims who don't blow shit up and take hostages when they don't like something?  (and most muslims at that)  I'm only guessing but based on what I see in suicide bombings, mortar attacks, and active combat units, I'd wager the total amount of Muslims who blow shit up and take hostages isn't even reaching the millions yet.  Are you anti-muslim because a minority blow shit up and take hostages when they don't like something?

Quote
We don't. Neither do the Christians.
Uuuuhhh.....
I'm pretty sure Israel (Jews) have blown up plenty of things they don't like.  Most notably in the Arab world.  Not sure they left hostages though but they do have POWs.  Does that count?


As for the question regarding the Holocaust, I won't deny, sometimes we ARE given a pass because of it, the same way Negroes in the USA are given a pass because of slavery.

Quote
Is that fair? Well, it depends what you are being given a pass for. If you are being given a pass for bad behaviour, then no, it is not fair, and I shall acknowledge that some Jews do act like alter kackers and then excuse it on grounds of the victim mentality. My response to that is, "Dude! Grow the fuck up! The Holocaust ended 69 years ago. Quit whining."
What is ok to be given a pass for?

Quote
Now, what about the nation of Israel? I only have a few minutes before I have to leave, so let me make this quick. The State of Israel is NOT perfect. One can, and should, be willing to criticise, or listen to constructive criticisms of the various policies of the State of Israel without automatically screaming "anti-Semitism!".

HOWEVER, and this is key, there is a difference between constructive criticism, and criticism for its own sake. To criticise Israel constructively is once thing. To criticise it because it is Israel is something yet again, and that IS anti-Semitism, and needs to be called out as such.

Israel is, facts be known, one of the kindest occupying powers in the history of the world. I challenge anybody to find me an occupying power that would allow the occupied to criticise the leaders of the occupiers, to sue in the occupier's supreme court, to request review of any action the occupying military takes, etc. You will be hard-pressed to find any occupying power in the world other than Israel that permits this.

I challenge anyone to find me a more moral army than Israel's. Israel does everything it can to try to get civilians out of the way, by dropping leaflets, by phone calls, text messages, roof knocking... find me another army that does the same.

Now, is the IDF perfect? NO! When it fucks up, should it be called out? YES! I think every Jew, Israeli and otherwise, would agree. But all told, Israel as a nation, and its army, are a helluva lot more moral than just about any other country you are going to find.

So, do some Jews demand unfair treatment because of the Holocaust? Yes. Is that unfair? Damn straight it is, and they should learn to shut the fuck up, because they make us ALL look bad. But we are NOT all that way. I have to go. I'll be back later today. See you then.
So Israel IS a conquer and occupying nation.  Gotcha.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 08, 2014, 09:51:42 PM
QUOTE: "So it's ok to be anti-x if they do things you don't like?  What if they started blowing up say... nazis?  You'd have to still be anti-muslim right?  Because they're blowing shit up and taking hostages when they don't like Nazis?  Or maybe Palistinians?  What if they blew them up and took hostages?  Wouldn't you have to still be anti-muslim?  And what about American Muslims who don't blow shit up and take hostages when they don't like something?  (and most muslims at that)  I'm only guessing but based on what I see in suicide bombings, mortar attacks, and active combat units, I'd wager the total amount of Muslims who blow shit up and take hostages isn't even reaching the millions yet.  Are you anti-muslim because a minority blow shit up and take hostages when they don't like something?"

Ok. First, Muslims don't dislike Nazis. In fact, one of the best-selling books in many Muslim countries for years has been Mein Kampf. 2nd, they don't like Jews. Their Qur'an tells then NOT to like Jews. Those are the facts of life. And the majority don't have the cajones to force the minority to STOP blowing shit up and taking hostages. Ergo, you have to treat them all alike.

Jews only blow shit up in the Arab world when the Arab world attacks them first, or plans on attacking them first (as in the Six Day War). Israel fights defensive wars. They have no designs on other countries' territory. POW's do not count as hostages, since they are taken in accordance with the laws of war.

I never denied that Israel has conquered and occupied territory. It is their right. The Land of Israel belongs to the Jews. The "Palestinians" have no rights there at all, and should be forcibly deported. Those who refuse to leave peacefully should be forced out at gunpoint. Greater Israel SHOULD be conquered, and occupied. There is no question there. Nor have I ever suggested otherwise. You can't be accused of having designs on another country's territory when its your country that was stolen from you and you are taking back what is rightfully yours.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 08, 2014, 10:50:18 PM
Ownership of land is construct of man. To insist that Jews somehow own a section of arid desert because 'holy text' is flat out retarded.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 08, 2014, 11:00:06 PM
Well, at least you can spell the word ''retarded" correctly. That's a start. Frankly, it has less to do with the text, and more to do with the fact that the Jews took the land from the Canaanites. The Bible's history is more or less accurate in terms of the Israelites entering Canaan and taking the land from the people who lived there before. The people who lived in Canaan, and were the ancestors of modern "Palestinians" (according to "Palestinians" themselves, not me), were savage animals that engaged in human sacrifice, temple prostitution, and other social ills that the Israelites wiped out, thereby doing the world a service. Now, if you take my perspective (and that of most scholars, for that matter), "Palestinians" are a blend of Canaanite and Arab ancestry. The Canaanites deserved what they got, and still would. The Arabs are invaders in a land that is not theis, so they have to leave. So long, goodbye, auf wiedershen, etc. Have a good life, but don't have it in Greater Israel, thank you very much.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 08, 2014, 11:01:28 PM
Why don't the opposing groups just go halfsies on the land?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 08, 2014, 11:25:18 PM
Israel has tried that. SEVERAL times. In 1947, British Mandate Palestine, which was Jordan,Israel, West Bank, and Gaza Strip, was supposed to be divided in half, the Jews said yes, the Arabs said no. Then Jordan was created as an Arab state. Then What was left of Palestine, today's Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza was supposed to go in half. The Jews said yes, the Arabs said no. Then the Jews said fuck it, and declared independence in the land they then controlled, and were summarily attacked by 6 Arab armies. They won the war, and ended up with more land than they would have had if the Arabs had said yes the second time. In 2001, Israel proposed to Yasir Arafat that he take 96% of the West Bank including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip for an independent State of Palestine. The asshole started the Second Intifada instead. Israel evacuated the Gaza Strip in 2005. They promptly were repaid by thousands of rockets being rained on their country. Now they have to control the ports of entry and the airspace of the territory to prevent this.

EVERY SINGLE TIME Israel tries to give the "Palestinians" a damn thing, they get bitten in the ass for it. So now, the Jews aren't giving a damn thing. Let the bastards suffer. That's what they deserve anyway.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 08, 2014, 11:42:53 PM
So Jews have virtually no land. They are then offered 50% of the pie and the Arabs get upset. The same offer is made again, the Arabs are still upset. The Jews, supported with massive foreign aid (for some retarded reason) win a bunch of wars, benevolently preside over the ghettoization of the native Arabs and then offer the Arabs less than 50%. The Arabs are still upset, so the Jews silently allow apocalyptic zionists to encroach on the ghetto and build a wall around the rest. Is that about right?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 08, 2014, 11:46:30 PM
Well, at least you can spell the word ''retarded" correctly. That's a start. Frankly, it has less to do with the text, and more to do with the fact that the Jews took the land from the Canaanites. The Bible's history is more or less accurate in terms of the Israelites entering Canaan and taking the land from the people who lived there before. The people who lived in Canaan, and were the ancestors of modern "Palestinians" (according to "Palestinians" themselves, not me), were savage animals that engaged in human sacrifice, temple prostitution, and other social ills that the Israelites wiped out, thereby doing the world a service. Now, if you take my perspective (and that of most scholars, for that matter), "Palestinians" are a blend of Canaanite and Arab ancestry. The Canaanites deserved what they got, and still would. The Arabs are invaders in a land that is not theis, so they have to leave. So long, goodbye, auf wiedershen, etc. Have a good life, but don't have it in Greater Israel, thank you very much.

The Jews didn't take the land at all. It's a much more messy history than that, as many different groups of people eventually coagulated into a Jewish community back then (including Canaanites themselves). Besides, who gives a fuck what happened thousands of years ago? The area has changed hands numerous times since then.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 08, 2014, 11:48:29 PM
Sounds like the Jews are just as bad as the Arabs in this situation.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 08, 2014, 11:59:08 PM
Jews and Arabs are both humans? Well, colour me surprised!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 09, 2014, 12:47:19 AM
So Jews have virtually no land. They are then offered 50% of the pie and the Arabs get upset. The same offer is made again, the Arabs are still upset. The Jews, supported with massive foreign aid (for some retarded reason) win a bunch of wars, benevolently preside over the ghettoization of the native Arabs and then offer the Arabs less than 50%. The Arabs are still upset, so the Jews silently allow apocalyptic zionists to encroach on the ghetto and build a wall around the rest. Is that about right?

Actually, the Jews got NO foreign aid except from other Jews until AFTER the War for Independence. Israel then began receiving aid from the United States which has been steady since. I believe Germany and Britain also help. But I don't think they get much from elsewhere. And given the fact that Arabs don't belong in Greater Israel anyway, the fact that Israel was willing to share is pretty cool to me. I have no sympathy for th bastards. But within the Green Line, 22% the population IS Arab, and they are happy. They vote, serve in the Knesset, serve (voluntarily; they are NOT subject to the draft as Jews are) in the IDF, they serve in on the Supreme Court, and have all the other rights and duties of citizens. And they are happy as such. Ask the avg Arab citizen of Israel if he would rather live elsewhere in the ME. He will think you are high. So don't sit there and lecture me about the big bad Jews. Show me a country in the Middle East that treats its Jews as well as Israel treats its Arab citizens. "Palestinians" are not citizens, but occupied persons. They get what they have been dishing out, and they have to FUCKING LIKE IT! I have no sympathy for them.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 09, 2014, 12:57:20 AM
What would you say to the accusation that Judaism has caused more problems than it has solved? Arguably it has lowered the quality of life across the entire planet by a significant margin due to wars, in-fighting, and petty rules.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 09, 2014, 01:12:34 AM
So Jews have virtually no land. They are then offered 50% of the pie and the Arabs get upset. The same offer is made again, the Arabs are still upset. The Jews, supported with massive foreign aid (for some retarded reason) win a bunch of wars, benevolently preside over the ghettoization of the native Arabs and then offer the Arabs less than 50%. The Arabs are still upset, so the Jews silently allow apocalyptic zionists to encroach on the ghetto and build a wall around the rest. Is that about right?

Actually, the Jews got NO foreign aid except from other Jews until AFTER the War for Independence. Israel then began receiving aid from the United States which has been steady since. I believe Germany and Britain also help. But I don't think they get much from elsewhere. And given the fact that Arabs don't belong in Greater Israel anyway, the fact that Israel was willing to share is pretty cool to me. I have no sympathy for th bastards. But within the Green Line, 22% the population IS Arab, and they are happy. They vote, serve in the Knesset, serve (voluntarily; they are NOT subject to the draft as Jews are) in the IDF, they serve in on the Supreme Court, and have all the other rights and duties of citizens. And they are happy as such. Ask the avg Arab citizen of Israel if he would rather live elsewhere in the ME. He will think you are high. So don't sit there and lecture me about the big bad Jews. Show me a country in the Middle East that treats its Jews as well as Israel treats its Arab citizens. "Palestinians" are not citizens, but occupied persons. They get what they have been dishing out, and they have to FUCKING LIKE IT! I have no sympathy for them.
By Arabs you mean non-Muslims right?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 09, 2014, 01:41:17 AM
Actually, no. The vast majority of Arabs in Israel are indeed Muslim. They are simply among the civilised of the batch.

What would you say to the accusation that Judaism has caused more problems than it has solved? Arguably it has lowered the quality of life across the entire planet by a significant margin due to wars, in-fighting, and petty rules.


I would say that it is rather difficult to say that .02% of the population has caused too many problems for the world. In fact, given that 22% of all Nobel Prizes belong to Jews, I would say that we have had a very powerful influence for good on the world. And given the fact that most of the world gets its basic codes of ethics from Mosaic legislation (the Ten Commandments and related codes of law) (including even the Muslims), I would further say that we have been a pivotal force for ethical and moral values. Even the UN, as useless as it is, at its very best, has tried to live according to the dictates of the Jewish Scripture. Look at  what is printed on the outside of the building. Its a quote from Isaiah. "Nation shall not take up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." I would say your remark simply demonstrates gross ignorance at best, or deliberate malice at worst.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 09, 2014, 01:48:54 AM
Actually, no. The vast majority of Arabs in Israel are indeed Muslim. They are simply among the civilised of the batch.
Woah, hold on.  You said and have been saying that all Muslims are bad.  Now you're contradicting that?  WTF?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 09, 2014, 02:11:04 AM
I'm not overly fond of them. But I've always said that if Arab citizens of Israel in the Green Line are willing to take an oath of citizenship and obedience to the Israeli State, then I'm inclined to let them stay there. There are some good Muslims. The trouble is, the ones that are usually don't have the cajones to fight the ones who are assholes. But, if you can find me those who do, then I am happy to revise my opinions. I never said my opinions were immutable.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 09, 2014, 02:15:45 AM
So Jews have virtually no land. They are then offered 50% of the pie and the Arabs get upset. The same offer is made again, the Arabs are still upset. The Jews, supported with massive foreign aid (for some retarded reason) win a bunch of wars, benevolently preside over the ghettoization of the native Arabs and then offer the Arabs less than 50%. The Arabs are still upset, so the Jews silently allow apocalyptic zionists to encroach on the ghetto and build a wall around the rest. Is that about right?

Actually, the Jews got NO foreign aid except from other Jews until AFTER the War for Independence. Israel then began receiving aid from the United States which has been steady since. I believe Germany and Britain also help. But I don't think they get much from elsewhere. And given the fact that Arabs don't belong in Greater Israel anyway, the fact that Israel was willing to share is pretty cool to me. I have no sympathy for th bastards. But within the Green Line, 22% the population IS Arab, and they are happy. They vote, serve in the Knesset, serve (voluntarily; they are NOT subject to the draft as Jews are) in the IDF, they serve in on the Supreme Court, and have all the other rights and duties of citizens. And they are happy as such. Ask the avg Arab citizen of Israel if he would rather live elsewhere in the ME. He will think you are high. So don't sit there and lecture me about the big bad Jews. Show me a country in the Middle East that treats its Jews as well as Israel treats its Arab citizens. "Palestinians" are not citizens, but occupied persons. They get what they have been dishing out, and they have to FUCKING LIKE IT! I have no sympathy for them.

I wasn't complaining about the Jews, just trying to get the facts straight.  You know the assertion that the Arabs "don't belong in Greater Israel" is a huge part of the problem.  There you go waving your holy book like it should have any effect on international discourse.  It is fine that you believe internally some truly horrific and bizarre shit, and it is fine that muslims, chirstians and hindus do the same, but it has no place in the affairs of nations, as it can only serve to divide, enflame and enrage people against one another.  Especially religions, like Judaism, that so clearly define an in-group and an out-group. 

If my little tongue-in-cheek precis of the last 60 years of Israeli history did not illuminate the extremely obvious and logical reasons why Arabs are pissed off with Israel, then I doubt that you will ever desire peace and good will.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 09, 2014, 09:16:23 PM
QUOTE: "I wasn't complaining about the Jews, just trying to get the facts straight.  You know the assertion that the Arabs "don't belong in Greater Israel" is a huge part of the problem.  There you go waving your holy book like it should have any effect on international discourse.  It is fine that you believe internally some truly horrific and bizarre shit, and it is fine that muslims, chirstians and hindus do the same, but it has no place in the affairs of nations, as it can only serve to divide, enflame and enrage people against one another.  Especially religions, like Judaism, that so clearly define an in-group and an out-group. 

If my little tongue-in-cheek precis of the last 60 years of Israeli history did not illuminate the extremely obvious and logical reasons why Arabs are pissed off with Israel, then I doubt that you will ever desire peace and good will."

Your "little tongue-in-cheek precis of the last 60 years of Israeli history" did not illuminate anything other than your own ignorance. Jews have had a continuous presence in Greater Israel for 4500 years. The Bible is simply a record that proves this. Even if you don't believe in God, the Bible is accurate on the subject of the idea that Jews became masters of Canaan under Joshua.

Archaeology (as Netanyahu pointed out at the UN the other day) and history demonstrate that Israel is the homeland of the Jew, that was stolen from him by others. Now it belongs to us again, by rights. Forget about God, if you wish. The fact remains that the land is ours, and the Arabs can go screw themselves. There are 22 countries they can live in if they wish, and only ONE, TINY Jewish state. So, as far as I am concerned, the Arabs can take their complaints and $0.75 American, and go a buy a cup of f-----g coffee. That is all their opinion is worth. And peace can only be had with Arabs when you force them into submission and obedience, straight up. That is what we need to do.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spoon on October 09, 2014, 09:56:20 PM
Jewish dietary restrictions are literally retarted. Why can you not mix dairy and meat?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 09, 2014, 10:41:43 PM
Ok, aside from y'all's inability to spell the word "retarded", let me break it down for you. In the Torah, There is a commandment that states, "you shall not boil a kid (the young of a goat) in its mother's milk."

Now, here is where a principle can be demonstrated. The Torah gives certain commandments. But the Rabbis who EXPLAINED the Torah wanted to "build a fence around the Torah". The idea was that if you didn't break the laws surrounding the laws, you would never get close enough to breaking the laws themselves. Now that probably doesn't make much sense. Let me explain.

So, you have the Torah, with its rules that allow or forbid certain things. You don't want to break those rules. Then, around that, you have a set of rules that exist such that, if you follow that larger set of rules, you won't come anywhere close to breaking Torah rules.

The rule you asked about is one of those. Its not in the Torah. Its one of those that the Rabbis legislated as a rule that builds a fence around the Torah. If you can't even mix milk and meat on your plate, you certainly aren't going to be able to boil a kid in the milk of its mother!

Now, before you ask the question, DO I mix milk and meat? Yes, I do. I follow strictly biblical commandments, unless I see extraordinarily good reasons to follow Rabbinically ordained ones. Obviously, if I am at Shul, or an Orthodox Jew's home, then I will follow the more strict practices. But in my personal life, I tend to disregard Rabbinical laws unless I see the value in them peronally, and there are many that I do. But there are many that I don't, and this is one of them.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 09, 2014, 11:25:37 PM
that's just retarted
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Thork on October 09, 2014, 11:48:01 PM
I thought we'd had a holocaust and Adolfplanet had wiped all the jews from this forum?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: xasop on October 10, 2014, 01:08:50 AM
I also happen to be an atheist because I don't believe in God, which happens to be the only necessary factor in atheism.

Incorrect. That is the only necessary factor in nontheism, which includes both agnosticism and atheism.

Agnostics don't believe in God, but they also don't believe in the absence of God. Atheists subscribe to the belief that God does not exist, in addition to not holding the belief that God exists.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 10, 2014, 03:05:31 AM
Ok, aside from y'all's inability to spell the word "retarded", let me break it down for you. In the Torah, There is a commandment that states, "you shall not boil a kid (the young of a goat) in its mother's milk."

Now, here is where a principle can be demonstrated. The Torah gives certain commandments. But the Rabbis who EXPLAINED the Torah wanted to "build a fence around the Torah". The idea was that if you didn't break the laws surrounding the laws, you would never get close enough to breaking the laws themselves. Now that probably doesn't make much sense. Let me explain.

So, you have the Torah, with its rules that allow or forbid certain things. You don't want to break those rules. Then, around that, you have a set of rules that exist such that, if you follow that larger set of rules, you won't come anywhere close to breaking Torah rules.

The rule you asked about is one of those. Its not in the Torah. Its one of those that the Rabbis legislated as a rule that builds a fence around the Torah. If you can't even mix milk and meat on your plate, you certainly aren't going to be able to boil a kid in the milk of its mother!

Now, before you ask the question, DO I mix milk and meat? Yes, I do. I follow strictly biblical commandments, unless I see extraordinarily good reasons to follow Rabbinically ordained ones. Obviously, if I am at Shul, or an Orthodox Jew's home, then I will follow the more strict practices. But in my personal life, I tend to disregard Rabbinical laws unless I see the value in them peronally, and there are many that I do. But there are many that I don't, and this is one of them.

All things considered, due to commercialization of farms, the probability of you eating beef while simultaneously drinking milk from its mother is ridiculously high.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on October 10, 2014, 03:35:01 AM
Jewish dietary restrictions are literally retarted. Why can you not mix dairy and meat?
From what I heard, it was essentially an issue of cross contamination.  Wooden bowls, utensils and such were common back in the day and could be very difficult to clean as thoroughly as you might like.  Bits of dairy products could get caught in the tiny cracks of the wood and contaminate the meat or vice versa.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 10, 2014, 03:46:10 AM
Agnostics don't believe in God, but they also don't believe in the absence of God. Atheists subscribe to the belief that God does not exist, in addition to not holding the belief that God exists.
Yeah, no. This is a common mistake propagated by religious people, possibly because it lets them use convenient tactics like "but you can't prove that there is no god!"

Atheism is the rejection of the belief in the existence of any deities, but it does not make any assertion about the non-existence of gods either. A person holds the belief or makes the claim that no deities exist is an antitheist, or a gnostic atheist.

An agnostic is a person who acknowledges that they cannot be certain of their position on theism, as there is no real evidence to conclude god or no god, while a gnostic would make a claim that they know their position is correct. An agnostic may be a theist, atheist, or antitheist (or anything else).

(A)gnosticism is essentially independent of (a)theism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFfrhiL4gwU
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 10, 2014, 11:38:15 AM
IRUSH, that risk does not exist on a kosher farm.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 10, 2014, 12:47:25 PM
Well. As much as I am NOT fond of Muslims, I think the choices this year for the Nobel Peace Prize were brilliant. Malala Yousefsai (sp?) of Pakistan and the Hindu gentleman of India were perfect. Gandhi would have been proud. This marks the second time that a Muslim has won a Nobel Prize, the first time being one in Literature. This also marks the youngest Peace Prize recipient ever, with Malala being just 17.

I truly am VERY happy to see them both win, especially young Malala. She has a proud and bright future ahead of her. But a Hindu of India and a Muslim of Pakistan winning together is truly brilliant, given the history of bad blood between those religions and those countries. May God bless them both, and may the cause of peace be advanced between both countries and their respective faiths. Omein.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 10, 2014, 01:14:13 PM
You are still a bigot. This is the equivalent of saying "I am not a bigot, I have a Muslim friend"
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 10, 2014, 01:34:26 PM
Actually, I do have a Muslim friend, but that is beside the point. I never denied not liking Muslims, and the fact that Malala is a wonderful child who deserved this award, and is a compliment to her people, her faith, and to the human race does not change the fact that most Muslims are dangerous. The fact that I have a good Muslim friend doesn't change that either.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 10, 2014, 01:49:17 PM
most muslims?  as in over 500M?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 10, 2014, 01:51:51 PM
Pretty much, yes. I personally think they are not a threat as long as they stay in their part of the world. But in our country, or other non-Muslim nations, they are dangerous, and must be deported forthwith.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: jroa on October 10, 2014, 02:48:08 PM
Yaakov, why do Jews cut their penises off?  Serious question. 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 10, 2014, 03:17:16 PM
First off, let me specify that we don't cut off our penises, and neither do Muslims, who also have the rite of circumcision. Now, as to WHY God ordered Abraham to remove the foreskin of Isaac's penis at age 8 days, and at the same time remove the foreskin of Ishmael's penis (Ishmael was 13 years old; OUCH!), I don't know. The Bible simply says that God ordered Abraham to do it. He also had to do it to himself (MAJOR OUCH!). The Bible only says that God commanded it as a mark to indicate that Jews were in the covenant relationship with God.

Now, Jews are the children of Isaac, and have continued to perform this act to infants at the age of 8 days. Arabs are the descendants of Ishmael and continue to do this ceremony on boys at the age of 13 years. Now, Ishmael was NOT the son of the Promise, Isaac was. Hence the Bible said that Ishmael would become a great nation, which he did, founding the 12 Tribes of Arabia. So he was not neglected by God, but he was not the son of the Promise in the way that Isaac was.

But back to circumcision as a commandment. The Bible doesn't explain, why that as opposed to something else. Now, it is possible that the Talmud does. I have not examined the subject. I don't have the Talmud in my library, because I can't afford it, quite frankly. The whole collection of 20 odd books costs several hundred dollars. I do have a compendium of Jewish Law that might explain it, or at least attempt to. I shall do some research in my compendium, and perhaps visit the library at the shul and see what I can find in the Talmud. Perhaps the Rabbi can explain it to me as well. I shall tell you my answer if and when I get one.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: jroa on October 10, 2014, 03:36:48 PM
Kind of seems like a scam.  Once you cut your penis, you can't grow it back, so they have you. 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 10, 2014, 03:42:03 PM
It depends on where you live. In America, many infants are circumcised so that they can better clean their penis, and so that they are less likely to catch HIV/AIDS and other STDs from a female partner, as circumcision has proven to reduce this problem as well. So, in a country where many are circumcised, a person's lack of foreskin will not be remarked on. Now, I suppose if you live in a country wherein circumcision is not practiced much, you might have some issues if you drop your pants in front of other persons (say, in the military for a "nuts and butts" exam). Certainly it was easy for the Nazis to figure out who the Jewish men were. All they had to do was require a man to drop his pants. Non-Jewish German men at that time did not circumcise their boys.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 10, 2014, 03:51:37 PM
Circumcision decreases the penis's sensitivity with regards to sex.  This story was likely created to quell the pleasure of sex at an early age.

AIDS/HIV did not exist (or were not know of) at the time so that's not a reason.

Its also possible that Abraham was a sick bastard who decided to mutilate the penis of his sons out of insanity or mental illness and y'all assumed God said so.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: jroa on October 10, 2014, 03:58:07 PM
It depends on where you live. In America, many infants are circumcised so that they can better clean their penis, and so that they are less likely to catch HIV/AIDS and other STDs from a female partner, as circumcision has proven to reduce this problem as well. So, in a country where many are circumcised, a person's lack of foreskin will not be remarked on. Now, I suppose if you live in a country wherein circumcision is not practiced much, you might have some issues if you drop your pants in front of other persons (say, in the military for a "nuts and butts" exam). Certainly it was easy for the Nazis to figure out who the Jewish men were. All they had to do was require a man to drop his pants. Non-Jewish German men at that time did not circumcise their boys.

Why do Jews worry so much about STDs?  Are you permiscuous? 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 10, 2014, 05:24:11 PM
I don't have the Talmud in my library, because I can't afford it, quite frankly. The whole collection of 20 odd books costs several hundred dollars.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/talmud.htm#t01

For free!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 10, 2014, 06:08:31 PM
Thank you Rama Set. PLEASE NOTE: This is the Babylonian Talmud only. There is also a Palestinian Talmud. The two of them together make up the whole Talmud. They were each prepared in parts where Jews were then living (during the approximate years 500 BC-500 AD). Please also scroll up and read the brief intro to the site that Rama Set so kindly provided.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 10, 2014, 07:05:50 PM
Circumcision decreases the penis's sensitivity with regards to sex.  This story was likely created to quell the pleasure of sex at an early age.

AIDS/HIV did not exist (or were not know of) at the time so that's not a reason.

Its also possible that Abraham was a sick bastard who decided to mutilate the penis of his sons out of insanity or mental illness and y'all assumed God said so.
If you're cutting children's penises because a voice told you so, then yeah you're probably crazy.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 10, 2014, 08:30:56 PM
I expect other STD's did exist, however, even though HIV/AIDS didn't. It does, from what I have been told, desensitize the penis a bit. I would suggest that denial of God's existence makes one crazy.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 10, 2014, 10:00:54 PM
I expect other STD's did exist, however, even though HIV/AIDS didn't.
Since blood tests didn't exist either, any STD would have been one that has easily identifiable symptoms.  And such women with those were loose and not worth marrying.  And as we all know, it was a sin to have sex out of wedlock and all married women are virgins on their wedding day so this, theory doesn't hold water.

Quote
It does, from what I have been told, desensitize the penis a bit.

It does.


Quote
I would suggest that denial of God's existence makes one crazy.

I'm crazy for other reasons.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on October 10, 2014, 10:50:34 PM
Quite

I don't have the Talmud in my library, because I can't afford it, quite frankly. The whole collection of 20 odd books costs several hundred dollars.

So you're willing to advocate the extermination or relocation or Muslims for your faith, but not pay a few hundred dollars? I see.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 10, 2014, 11:25:17 PM
If someone claimed to be God, what would convince you that it really is God?  Like if you found a burning bush that spoke to you (like Moses) how would you know it's God and not a guy with a speaker in a burning bush?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 11, 2014, 04:38:20 AM
I expect other STD's did exist, however, even though HIV/AIDS didn't. It does, from what I have been told, desensitize the penis a bit. I would suggest that denial of God's existence makes one crazy.

It's crazy to reject something that's completely unverifiable?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 11, 2014, 04:57:02 AM
QUOTE: "Since blood tests didn't exist either, any STD would have been one that has easily identifiable symptoms.  And such women with those were loose and not worth marrying.  And as we all know, it was a sin to have sex out of wedlock and all married women are virgins on their wedding day so this, theory doesn't hold water."

Well, for an interesting take on prostitution, read about Judah and Tamar in Gen. 38.

I don't anticipate being spoken to by a voice in a burning bush. So the point is irrelevant. And remember, the bush burned but was not consumed. First off, SOMEONE wouldn't convince me. SOMEONE implies a human being. We don't believe that humans can be God. We leave that to the Christians, who believe that Jesus is God.

So anything claiming to be God would have to be non-human or non-animal, presumably non-corporeal. So, how would YOU determine it was God?

And yes, it is crazy to believe that the entire universe and all that therein lies is an accident. Again, for further argumentation, read Anselm's Argument of Ontology.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Shane on October 11, 2014, 05:42:49 AM
The God argument is bad. The universe can not exist without creation but God can.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 11, 2014, 06:07:13 AM
And yes, it is crazy to believe that the entire universe and all that therein lies is an accident. Again, for further argumentation, read Anselm's Argument of Ontology.

But then what created God? If everything has a beginning, then God must too. If God is eternal, then why can't the Universe also be eternal?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 11, 2014, 12:08:30 PM
Except we know that the universe is NOT eternal. Rather, it started with the Big Bang about `13.8 billion years ago.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 11, 2014, 01:09:53 PM
So the big bang and the age of the universe is perfectly solved in your mind, but God is necessary as well? What a strange view you have there.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 11, 2014, 01:15:35 PM
Except we know that the universe is NOT eternal. Rather, it started with the Big Bang about `13.8 billion years ago.

Who said the universe was created by accident. A lack of intelligent will does not automatically make something accidental. That is a non-sequitur. It is a mistake commonly made when conceptualizing evolution through natural selection. Based on our current knowledge the creation of the universe was likely non-random.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 11, 2014, 02:08:49 PM
QUOTE: "Since blood tests didn't exist either, any STD would have been one that has easily identifiable symptoms.  And such women with those were loose and not worth marrying.  And as we all know, it was a sin to have sex out of wedlock and all married women are virgins on their wedding day so this, theory doesn't hold water."

Well, for an interesting take on prostitution, read about Judah and Tamar in Gen. 38.
Unless it says that prostitutes are perfectly ok to marry, its irrelevant to the discussion or why God would give you foreskin then say "cut it off" a few thousand years after doing so.  Doesn't make much sense now does it?

Quote
I don't anticipate being spoken to by a voice in a burning bush. So the point is irrelevant. And remember, the bush burned but was not consumed. First off, SOMEONE wouldn't convince me. SOMEONE implies a human being. We don't believe that humans can be God. We leave that to the Christians, who believe that Jesus is God.

So anything claiming to be God would have to be non-human or non-animal, presumably non-corporeal.
God can't appear to you as a human, animal, or other physical object?  Wow, your god is pretty limited.  (Appear being not the same as IS.  So Jesus IS a human but God could appear to you looking like an old man who can walk through walls) 

Quote
So, how would YOU determine it was God?
I can't.  To determine someone or something is God, I have to first believe that God exists.  I do not. 
You, however, do.  Hence why I'm asking you.  I mean, if Moses accepted a burning bush with a disembodied voice, why can't you?  I'm sure he didn't think he'd see one either.

Quote
And yes, it is crazy to believe that the entire universe and all that therein lies is an accident. Again, for further argumentation, read Anselm's Argument of Ontology.
Except God.  He was totally an accident. 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 11, 2014, 05:45:17 PM
Except we know that the universe is NOT eternal. Rather, it started with the Big Bang about `13.8 billion years ago.

Who said the universe was created by accident. A lack of intelligent will does not automatically make something accidental. That is a non-sequitur. It is a mistake commonly made when conceptualizing evolution through natural selection. Based on our current knowledge the creation of the universe was likely non-random.

You would have to find a very good explanation to prove to me that the creation of the Universe was non-random, and yet non-intelligent. That is one of the dumbest things I think I've ever had the misfortune of every hearing. Not that you are dumb, which you are clearly not, but that the statement you uttered was.

QUOTE: "Since blood tests didn't exist either, any STD would have been one that has easily identifiable symptoms.  And such women with those were loose and not worth marrying.  And as we all know, it was a sin to have sex out of wedlock and all married women are virgins on their wedding day so this, theory doesn't hold water."

Well, for an interesting take on prostitution, read about Judah and Tamar in Gen. 38.
Unless it says that prostitutes are perfectly ok to marry, its irrelevant to the discussion or why God would give you foreskin then say "cut it off" a few thousand years after doing so.  Doesn't make much sense now does it?

Quote
I don't anticipate being spoken to by a voice in a burning bush. So the point is irrelevant. And remember, the bush burned but was not consumed. First off, SOMEONE wouldn't convince me. SOMEONE implies a human being. We don't believe that humans can be God. We leave that to the Christians, who believe that Jesus is God.

So anything claiming to be God would have to be non-human or non-animal, presumably non-corporeal.
God can't appear to you as a human, animal, or other physical object?  Wow, your god is pretty limited.  (Appear being not the same as IS.  So Jesus IS a human but God could appear to you looking like an old man who can walk through walls) 

Quote
So, how would YOU determine it was God?
I can't.  To determine someone or something is God, I have to first believe that God exists.  I do not. 
You, however, do.  Hence why I'm asking you.  I mean, if Moses accepted a burning bush with a disembodied voice, why can't you?  I'm sure he didn't think he'd see one either.

Quote
And yes, it is crazy to believe that the entire universe and all that therein lies is an accident. Again, for further argumentation, read Anselm's Argument of Ontology.
Except God.  He was totally an accident. 

God COULD appear as a human, or anything else for that matter. However, that would NOT be in line with how God has chosen to reveal himself to the Jewish People for 4500 years. So I suspect that doing so would be very unlikely. Praying to a human or animal is directly forbidden in Judaism. I don't think that God would appear as something to which Jews are forbidden to pray.

Foreskin was ordered to be removed as a sign of being part of the Covenant. Why that and not something else, I am uncertain. I don't particularly care, however. It is what it is. The benefits to it outweigh the negatives.

God was not an accident, since he has ALWAYS existed, without beginning, and without end.

As for determining that something was God if I saw it, I have no frame of reference for doing that, as I have never had the experience. I recommend you read Torah. That might give you some ideas as to how certain people handled the issue.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on October 11, 2014, 06:05:38 PM
Except we know that the universe is NOT eternal. Rather, it started with the Big Bang about `13.8 billion years ago.

Who said the universe was created by accident. A lack of intelligent will does not automatically make something accidental. That is a non-sequitur. It is a mistake commonly made when conceptualizing evolution through natural selection. Based on our current knowledge the creation of the universe was likely non-random.

You would have to find a very good explanation to prove to me that the creation of the Universe was non-random, and yet non-intelligent. That is one of the dumbest things I think I've ever had the misfortune of every hearing. Not that you are dumb, which you are clearly not, but that the statement you uttered was.

How exactly are you defining the word random?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 11, 2014, 06:14:13 PM
>causality is a stupid idea

uhhh lol

Also, the big bang couldn't have been accidental if there isn't a god, because accidents are unexpected or unintentional events and there would have to be a cognitive being with the ability to expect or have the intent for something else in order for an event to be an accident. As for whether or not it was random, it's impossible to know so I don't know why it would be stupid to believe either way. It's not like random events are particularly remarkable, especially since the big bang theoretically had an unlimited amount of time to occur at random - which makes its occurrence given a long enough timespan a near certainty.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 11, 2014, 06:21:35 PM
You would have to find a very good explanation to prove to me that the creation of the Universe was non-random, and yet non-intelligent. That is one of the dumbest things I think I've ever had the misfortune of every hearing. Not that you are dumb, which you are clearly not, but that the statement you uttered was.
The creation of snowflakes is non-random and non-intelligent.  Just saying.

Quote
God COULD appear as a human, or anything else for that matter. However, that would NOT be in line with how God has chosen to reveal himself to the Jewish People for 4500 years. So I suspect that doing so would be very unlikely. Praying to a human or animal is directly forbidden in Judaism. I don't think that God would appear as something to which Jews are forbidden to pray.
Jews can pray to burning bushes?

Quote
Foreskin was ordered to be removed as a sign of being part of the Covenant. Why that and not something else, I am uncertain. I don't particularly care, however. It is what it is. The benefits to it outweigh the negatives.
So did Abraham remove his own foreskin?
Also, isn't that kind of Gay?  I mean, how do jewish men identify other jewish men?  Why they have to look at each other's penises right?
And what about women?  Not allowed to be in a Covenant?
And did God confirm this with anyone else other than Abraham?  If someone came upp to you and said "God came to me as a tree shaking without wind and told me to cut my arm to show servitude."  Would you?

Quote
God was not an accident, since he has ALWAYS existed, without beginning, and without end.
Replace God with Universe.  Just because the earliest we have is a big bang, doesn't mean that was the start nor does it mean that this is the only universe to have ever existed.

Quote
As for determining that something was God if I saw it, I have no frame of reference for doing that, as I have never had the experience. I recommend you read Torah. That might give you some ideas as to how certain people handled the issue.
So basically you believe God exists but God himself couldn't prove it to you.  No wonder he doesn't talk to you.

Also: Every way in the Torah can be faked using modern technology.  Not sure it applies.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 11, 2014, 06:33:20 PM
ran·dom
ˈrandəm/Submit
adjective
1.
made, done, happening, or chosen without method or conscious decision.
"a random sample of 100 households"
synonyms:   unsystematic, unmethodical, arbitrary, unplanned, undirected, casual, indiscriminate, nonspecific, haphazard, stray, erratic; More
antonyms:   systematic
STATISTICS
governed by or involving equal chances for each item.
(of masonry) with stones of irregular size and shape.
2.
informal
odd, unusual, or unexpected.
"I find it impossible to not laugh at such a random guy"

>causality is a stupid idea

uhhh lol

Also, the big bang couldn't have been accidental if there isn't a god, because accidents are unexpected or unintentional events and there would have to be a cognitive being with the ability to expect or have the intent for something else in order for an event to be an accident. As for whether or not it was random, it's impossible to know so I don't know why it would be stupid to believe either way. It's not like random events are particularly remarkable, especially since the big bang theoretically had an unlimited amount of time to occur at random - which makes its occurrence given a long enough timespan a near certainty.

Since NOTHING, not even time, existed before the Big Bang, other than God, there was NO TIME in which something could have occurred randomly.

You would have to find a very good explanation to prove to me that the creation of the Universe was non-random, and yet non-intelligent. That is one of the dumbest things I think I've ever had the misfortune of every hearing. Not that you are dumb, which you are clearly not, but that the statement you uttered was.
The creation of snowflakes is non-random and non-intelligent.  Just saying.

Quote
God COULD appear as a human, or anything else for that matter. However, that would NOT be in line with how God has chosen to reveal himself to the Jewish People for 4500 years. So I suspect that doing so would be very unlikely. Praying to a human or animal is directly forbidden in Judaism. I don't think that God would appear as something to which Jews are forbidden to pray.
Jews can pray to burning bushes?

Quote
Foreskin was ordered to be removed as a sign of being part of the Covenant. Why that and not something else, I am uncertain. I don't particularly care, however. It is what it is. The benefits to it outweigh the negatives.
So did Abraham remove his own foreskin?
Also, isn't that kind of Gay?  I mean, how do jewish men identify other jewish men?  Why they have to look at each other's penises right?
And what about women?  Not allowed to be in a Covenant?
And did God confirm this with anyone else other than Abraham?  If someone came upp to you and said "God came to me as a tree shaking without wind and told me to cut my arm to show servitude."  Would you?

Quote
God was not an accident, since he has ALWAYS existed, without beginning, and without end.
Replace God with Universe.  Just because the earliest we have is a big bang, doesn't mean that was the start nor does it mean that this is the only universe to have ever existed.

Quote
As for determining that something was God if I saw it, I have no frame of reference for doing that, as I have never had the experience. I recommend you read Torah. That might give you some ideas as to how certain people handled the issue.
So basically you believe God exists but God himself couldn't prove it to you.  No wonder he doesn't talk to you.

Also: Every way in the Torah can be faked using modern technology.  Not sure it applies.

Snowflakes are created by God, each one of them, and are NOT random in any way. There IS an intelligence behind them.

No, Jews cannot pray to burning bushes. Your point is well made. But, it is far more likely that someone would worship a person as a saint or something if they thought it was God, as the Christians do with Jesus. Besides that, we do not believe that the bush was God. We believe that God was in the bush, if you will. But your point is well taken. Suffice it to say that we do not worship any kind of image. Our God is utterly incorporeal.

Abraham actually did circumcise himself. Women are part of the Covenant, but there is no physical indicator of that.

Modern technology did not exist 4500 years ago. Your point?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 11, 2014, 06:39:48 PM
ran·dom
ˈrandəm/Submit
adjective
1.
made, done, happening, or chosen without method or conscious decision.
"a random sample of 100 households"
synonyms:   unsystematic, unmethodical, arbitrary, unplanned, undirected, casual, indiscriminate, nonspecific, haphazard, stray, erratic; More
antonyms:   systematic
STATISTICS
governed by or involving equal chances for each item.
(of masonry) with stones of irregular size and shape.
2.
informal
odd, unusual, or unexpected.
"I find it impossible to not laugh at such a random guy"

ok?

Quote
Since NOTHING, not even time, existed before the Big Bang, other than God, there was NO TIME in which something could have occurred randomly.

[citation needed]
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 11, 2014, 06:40:52 PM
There was no measurement for time before the big bang, yes. "Time" is an abstract concept and its existence is relative to the person observing it. Time as you know it is not necessary for the big bang to happen.

But if we go by your logic, there was "NO TIME" for God to do shit either. So looks like we're at a stalemate logically, but of course you're going to claim that God works outside of time and space... to which I say: bullshit.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 11, 2014, 06:45:23 PM
There was no measurement for time before the big bang, yes. "Time" is an abstract concept and its existence is relative to the person observing it. Time as you know it is not necessary for the big bang to happen.

But if we go by your logic, there was "NO TIME" for God to do shit either. So looks like we're at a stalemate logically, but of course you're going to claim that God works outside of time and space... to which I say: bullshit.

measurement of time = time

wow i learned some thing new!!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 11, 2014, 06:48:28 PM
There was no measurement for time before the big bang, yes. "Time" is an abstract concept and its existence is relative to the person observing it. Time as you know it is not necessary for the big bang to happen.

But if we go by your logic, there was "NO TIME" for God to do shit either. So looks like we're at a stalemate logically, but of course you're going to claim that God works outside of time and space... to which I say: bullshit.

measurement of time = time

wow i learned some thing new!!

Are you trying to say that time is not an abstract concept? I'm confused by your snide coolness.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 11, 2014, 06:51:35 PM
Is Jew gold worth more than plain gold?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 11, 2014, 06:59:16 PM
There was no measurement for time before the big bang, yes. "Time" is an abstract concept and its existence is relative to the person observing it. Time as you know it is not necessary for the big bang to happen.

But if we go by your logic, there was "NO TIME" for God to do shit either. So looks like we're at a stalemate logically, but of course you're going to claim that God works outside of time and space... to which I say: bullshit.

measurement of time = time

wow i learned some thing new!!

Are you trying to say that time is not an abstract concept? I'm confused by your snide coolness.

I'm just wondering why you think "abstract concept" means anything in this context, or how you followed that to the conclusion that its existence is relative to observation

I guess time didn't exist before humans came around, wow!!!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 11, 2014, 07:00:01 PM
There was no measurement for time before the big bang, yes. "Time" is an abstract concept and its existence is relative to the person observing it. Time as you know it is not necessary for the big bang to happen.

But if we go by your logic, there was "NO TIME" for God to do shit either. So looks like we're at a stalemate logically, but of course you're going to claim that God works outside of time and space... to which I say: bullshit.

measurement of time = time

wow i learned some thing new!!

Are you trying to say that time is not an abstract concept? I'm confused by your snide coolness.

I'm just wondering why you think "abstract concept" means anything in this context, or how you followed that to the conclusion that its existence is relative to observation

I guess time didn't exist before humans came around, wow!!!

Maybe this will help you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time

& http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tree_falls_in_a_forest
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 11, 2014, 07:05:40 PM
There was no measurement for time before the big bang, yes. "Time" is an abstract concept and its existence is relative to the person observing it. Time as you know it is not necessary for the big bang to happen.

But if we go by your logic, there was "NO TIME" for God to do shit either. So looks like we're at a stalemate logically, but of course you're going to claim that God works outside of time and space... to which I say: bullshit.

measurement of time = time

wow i learned some thing new!!

Are you trying to say that time is not an abstract concept? I'm confused by your snide coolness.

I'm just wondering why you think "abstract concept" means anything in this context, or how you followed that to the conclusion that its existence is relative to observation

I guess time didn't exist before humans came around, wow!!!

Maybe this will help you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time

& http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tree_falls_in_a_forest

It doesn't, please explane
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 11, 2014, 07:05:59 PM
No.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 11, 2014, 07:19:23 PM
The existence of time is completely dependent on observation. If an entity does not exist that can observe a passage of time (e.g. retain some form of memory or recording of the past) then the past effectively does not exist. This is true unless you can provably show a passage of time without observation. You would need experimental evidence of a chronoton or some other form of "time particle." Otherwise, time really doesn't exist, only the present exists. The future or past is an invention of the human mind.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 11, 2014, 07:20:53 PM
The question of "If a tree falls in a forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound?", is reminiscent of the issue of the minyan in Judaism. To have a full quorum for prayer, there must be 10 adult males in the Orthodox tradition, or 10 adult persons (men or women) in the Conservative tradition. If there are less, the service is shortened drastically.

I have often wondered at this. It seems to me that, even if there is only one Jew praying, what about the countless Angels singing glory to God as well, with whom (notice I did not say TO WHOM) we pray? Why aren't they counted? Note that the Reform do NOT count the Minyan. The service is the same if there are 2 Jews or 50 Jews.

So back to the tree. Of course it makes a noise. Even if you aren't there, SOMETHING is. Another human, or a fox, or a rodent, or SOMETHING is there! It wouldn't break in a vacuum. And even if it did, the Angels would be there to hear it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 11, 2014, 07:21:43 PM
The existence of time is completely dependent on observation. If an entity does not exist that can observe a passage of time (e.g. retain some form of memory or recording of the past) then the past effectively does not exist.

It's impossible to tell whether you're being ironic or not.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 11, 2014, 07:25:55 PM
Time is hypothesized to be the 4th dimension. I think scientists came to this conclusion because of time dilation. So it's something. Maybe it's just a byproduct of mass? The measurement of time and the passage of time is entirely relative to the person observing it, however. That's not going to change. Like Rushy said, unless you can prove that there are time particles or some other such thing then I don't understand the point you're trying to make, Blanko.

And Yaakov, what if there are no rodents to observe the tree? Please don't cite angels.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 11, 2014, 07:37:41 PM
The measurement of time and the passage of time is entirely relative to the person observing it, however.

Not the existence of it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 11, 2014, 07:39:47 PM
The measurement of time and the passage of time is entirely relative to the person observing it, however.

Not the existence of it.

I personally agree, but that is still debatable.

Sorry for my poor word choice.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 11, 2014, 07:42:07 PM
The measurement of time and the passage of time is entirely relative to the person observing it, however.

Not the existence of it.

I personally agree, but that is still debatable.

Sorry for my poor word choice.

It's as debatable as saying that your observations are incorrect and that time doesn't exist at all, period. After all, you couldn't possibly prove otherwise :^)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 11, 2014, 07:43:18 PM
Exactly.

Time hurts my head.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 11, 2014, 07:43:34 PM
Except we know that the universe is NOT eternal. Rather, it started with the Big Bang about `13.8 billion years ago.

That was the beginning of the observable Universe, yes. There are many theories regarding how our Universe came about, none of them involve a God.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 11, 2014, 07:44:02 PM
Except we know that the universe is NOT eternal. Rather, it started with the Big Bang about `13.8 billion years ago.

That was the beginning of the observable Universe, yes. There are many theories regarding how our Universe came about, none of them involve a God.

What about creation science?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 11, 2014, 07:47:55 PM
Except we know that the universe is NOT eternal. Rather, it started with the Big Bang about `13.8 billion years ago.

That was the beginning of the observable Universe, yes. There are many theories regarding how our Universe came about, none of them involve a God.

What about creation science?

No such thing. Creation myth is more accurate.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 11, 2014, 07:52:17 PM
The measurement of time and the passage of time is entirely relative to the person observing it, however.

Not the existence of it.

Prove it. Prove to me that time is a literal, concrete object that exists regardless of observation.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on October 11, 2014, 07:59:42 PM
The measurement of time and the passage of time is entirely relative to the person observing it, however.

Not the existence of it.

Prove it. Prove to me that time is a literal, concrete object that exists regardless of observation.

Nobody made that claim.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 11, 2014, 08:02:49 PM
Nobody made that claim.

Except that Blanko is claiming that time would still exist if no one was there to see it while simultaneously saying it is an abstract idea. Abstract ideas don't exist outside of the human mind, which is why they are abstract in the first place. So yes, Blanko did make that claim.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on October 11, 2014, 08:10:40 PM
Nobody made that claim.

Except that Blanko is claiming that time would still exist if no one was there to see it while simultaneously saying it is an abstract idea. Abstract ideas don't exist outside of the human mind, which is why they are abstract in the first place. So yes, Blanko did make that claim.

Please show me where Blanko or anybody else made the claim that time is an object.

Furthermore, "time" is just an abstraction of a real phenomenon. Matter and energy can change without being observed, and time is just that: the movement of energy and matter.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 11, 2014, 08:15:23 PM
Fuck off and take it to the other thread.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 12, 2014, 10:35:17 AM
QUOTE from Vaux: "And Yaakov, what if there are no rodents to observe the tree? Please don't cite angels."

Why can't I cite Angels? The Talmud, and the Qur'an both cite Angels and Djinn. Angels are made of Light, and Djinn are made of Smokeless Fire.  Humans are made of Dust (sometimes translated as Clay).

Your refusal to accept either Djinn or Angels does not speak for their non-existence, but rather, for your own ignorance of their existence. Judaism and Islam acknowledge belief in both. Christianity at least acknowledges belief in Angels and rebellious Angels (Demons), as does Islam. Judaism doesn't accept that idea, hence the lack of belief in Hell. Other religions also cite belief in Angels. Among them are Mormonism, Zoroastrianism, various forms of Hinduism, Yazidis, and other related groups in Iraq and surrounding countries.

The fundamental fact is that a good 90% of the world is theistic. Even the Buddhist world, at least in its Tibetan form, is theistic. To deny the existence of God, to espouse open atheism, is to be a small minority. Although I don't dispute your right to do so, I certainly don't believe that the onus is on me to prove my case. The Ontological Argument has already done that.

I don't accept "Creation Science" any more than Richard Dawkins does. Frankly, I consider it a load of crap. Even assuming I accepted a literal interpretation of Genesis (and I am not so sure that I do), the text never claimed to be a frigging science book. Those who take it as such have their head stuck in their ass, in my own opinion.

But to stop me from mentioning Angels and Djinn just because you yourself do not believe in them is simply absurd. What if a Djinn decided to make its presence known, as they are sometimes known to do?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 12, 2014, 03:27:40 PM
QUOTE from Vaux: "And Yaakov, what if there are no rodents to observe the tree? Please don't cite angels."

Why can't I cite Angels? The Talmud, and the Qur'an both cite Angels and Djinn. Angels are made of Light, and Djinn are made of Smokeless Fire.  Humans are made of Dust (sometimes translated as Clay).

Your refusal to accept either Djinn or Angels does not speak for their non-existence, but rather, for your own ignorance of their existence. Judaism and Islam acknowledge belief in both. Christianity at least acknowledges belief in Angels and rebellious Angels (Demons), as does Islam. Judaism doesn't accept that idea, hence the lack of belief in Hell. Other religions also cite belief in Angels. Among them are Mormonism, Zoroastrianism, various forms of Hinduism, Yazidis, and other related groups in Iraq and surrounding countries.

The fundamental fact is that a good 90% of the world is theistic. Even the Buddhist world, at least in its Tibetan form, is theistic. To deny the existence of God, to espouse open atheism, is to be a small minority. Although I don't dispute your right to do so, I certainly don't believe that the onus is on me to prove my case. The Ontological Argument has already done that.

I don't accept "Creation Science" any more than Richard Dawkins does. Frankly, I consider it a load of crap. Even assuming I accepted a literal interpretation of Genesis (and I am not so sure that I do), the text never claimed to be a frigging science book. Those who take it as such have their head stuck in their ass, in my own opinion.

But to stop me from mentioning Angels and Djinn just because you yourself do not believe in them is simply absurd. What if a Djinn decided to make its presence known, as they are sometimes known to do?
And what do you base the existence of angels and djinn on?  Is it because your Rabbi said so?  Is it because a 4,000 year old book says so?  Or is it because everyone around you says so?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 12, 2014, 03:59:39 PM
QUOTE from Lord Dave: "And what do you base the existence of angels and djinn on?  Is it because your Rabbi said so?  Is it because a 4,000 year old book says so?  Or is it because everyone around you says so?"

And upon what do you base their non-existence on?

I base their existence on the experience of many men in Scripture. I base the existence of Djinn on my own personal experience, which I shall not explain to you, except to say that I believe it to be a valid experience of the existence of a Djinn. And, said 4,000 yo book has been around far longer than you or me, and will continue to be around long after we are dust. I have seen no reason to accept the attacks of idiots the like of Richard Dawkins, whose name will be forgotten within a year or two of his death, I expect.

The name of Moses, however, has not been forgotten in 4500 years. So ask me which one I trust more, Moses or Richard Dawkins. I think my point has been made.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 12, 2014, 04:19:29 PM
QUOTE from Lord Dave: "And what do you base the existence of angels and djinn on?  Is it because your Rabbi said so?  Is it because a 4,000 year old book says so?  Or is it because everyone around you says so?"

And upon what do you base their non-existence on?
The same thing I base the non-existence of Unicorns.  Do YOU believe in Unicorns?  And Dragons?  Maybe the Easter Bunny?  Or what about Santa Clause?  They have stories about them.  Heck, we have tons of pictures AND they're believed by more people than all the Jews in the world.

Quote
I base their existence on the experience of many men in Scripture. I base the existence of Djinn on my own personal experience, which I shall not explain to you, except to say that I believe it to be a valid experience of the existence of a Djinn. And, said 4,000 yo book has been around far longer than you or me, and will continue to be around long after we are dust. I have seen no reason to accept the attacks of idiots the like of Richard Dawkins, whose name will be forgotten within a year or two of his death, I expect.

The name of Moses, however, has not been forgotten in 4500 years. So ask me which one I trust more, Moses or Richard Dawkins. I think my point has been made.
Neither have the great Pharos of Egypt, or the Gods of Olympus, or even Norse Gods.  Are they just as real?

Believing in the words of someone who had stuff written about them 4,000 years ago is not very credible as a source.  For all you know, Moses may not even be his real name.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 12, 2014, 05:16:15 PM
"Name
Moses' name is given to him by Pharaoh's daughter: "He became her son, and she named him Moshe (Moses)." This name may be either Egyptian or Hebrew. If connected to an Egyptian root, via msy "to be born" and ms, "a son", it forms a wordplay: "he became her son, and she named him Son." There should, however, be a divine element to the name Moses (bearers of the Egyptian name are the "son of" a god, as in Thutmose, "son of Thut"), and his full name may therefore have included the name of one of the Egyptian gods. If the name is from a Hebrew root, then it is connected to the verb "to draw out": "I drew him (masha) out of the water," states Pharaoh's daughter, possibly looking forward to Moses at the well in Midian, or to his role in saving Israel at the Red Sea. Most scholars agree that the name is Egyptian, and that the Hebrew etymology is a later interpretation.[11]" {Wikipedia}.

Therefore I expect his name was Moshe, but derived from the Egyptian, since his foster mother was Egyptian. I seriously doubt she would have called him anything in Hebrew. The fact that the word is also a word in Hebrew (meaning something else, of course), is coincidental, and lucky for us, particularly insofar as that "something else" has something to do with narrative of his birth (being drawn out of the water).

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 12, 2014, 06:39:57 PM
If I were to base my worldview on a book, I think LotR would be better. At least it's more internally consistent.

Also, Dawkins is a world renown scientist. He has published heaps of literature (atheist books aside) and even has a foundation in his name. I don't think he'll be forgotten quickly.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 12, 2014, 06:48:35 PM
Interestingly enough, the author of LotR was an EXTREMELY devout Roman Catholic. JRR Tolkien rejected most of Vatican II, especially the changes to the Mass, particularly the use of the vernacular, insisting on responding to his Priest in Latin, even after the service was being done in English.

So, when I hear people talking about JRR Tolkien being more consistent than the Bible, I laugh, because they are unknowingly making fools of themselves.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 12, 2014, 07:02:55 PM
Interestingly enough, the author of LotR was an EXTREMELY devout Roman Catholic. JRR Tolkien rejected most of Vatican II, especially the changes to the Mass, particularly the use of the vernacular, insisting on responding to his Priest in Latin, even after the service was being done in English.

So, when I hear people talking about JRR Tolkien being more consistent than the Bible, I laugh, because they are unknowingly making fools of themselves.

What? I said his mythos was more internally consistent. There's entire websites devoted to pointing out the inconsistencies in the Bible, not so for the Tolkienverse. It was written by one man throughout his lifetime, and while he wasn't always consistent, it was more consistent than a text authored by dozens of people over hundreds of years.

Besides, it's just plain cooler. The Abrahamic God ranges from a crazy murderer to a benevolent retart. Eru is significantly less bizarre.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 12, 2014, 07:17:21 PM
Eri is practically deistic with only a couple of interventions since the beginning of Ëa.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Fortuna on October 12, 2014, 07:30:45 PM
Why do you believe in something that has no verifiable evidence?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 12, 2014, 07:33:14 PM
What an original question, Andrew.


Short answer, faith.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 12, 2014, 07:47:25 PM
The fact that you can't spell "retard" right speaks volumes. That is precisely the point. I won't speak for the so-called "New Testament". It is not a book I believe in, it is not a part of my Faith, and I consider it as irrelevant to my life as I do the Qur'an or the Bhagavad-Gita.

But, looking at the Jewish Bible alone of 24 Books (the Protestants divide these books differently and come up with 39, but the text is the same), the fact that they were written by so many people, and yet, are as consistent as they are is quite amazing. I estimate that the Hebrew Bible had approximately 25 authors in total. Looking at the text the way Protestants divide it, into 39 individual books (Jews count the Minor Prophets, of which there are 12, as one book, and they count 1 and 2 Kings, and 1 and 2 Samuel, and 1 and 2 Chronicles, and Ezra and Nehemiah, as each being one book), one can see that there is considerable unity in the text. Of course, your modern day so-called "liberal biblical scholars" would say otherwise. Not that that is particularly relevant, given that they can't even get the New Testament right regarding the so-called "Q" source. How could I possibly expect them to get the Divine Word right?

You telling me that there are websites devoted to the inconsistencies of the Bible is about as relevant as informing me that in reality, the Pope is indeed Catholic. I am aware of the websites, and have read quite a few of them. Invariably they are critical of Christianity, rather than Judaism, so they spend most of their time on the New Testament, or on a Christian interpretation of the Hebrew Bible.

Keep in mind, I have read the New Testament twice, which I expect is probably at least once or twice more than you have. I have  read the Hebrew Bible once in full, and the Torah twice, which again, is probably at least once or twice more than you have. And in Shul we go through the entire Torah once a year. So, that should count as well.

My inevitable conclusion to the Hebrew Scriptures is the following: If there is something in it that you do not understand, or that appears inconsistent, this is due to your lack of understanding. I would advise seeking out resources that are reliable, both pro and con, to bring to the matter, and exploring the true meaning of the text, and without taking the verses out of context. In fact, if at all you find verses that make no sense, don't just read those, but rather, read the entire chapter in which they appear, and perhaps the chapter before, and the chapter after. This will give you a background for what the author is trying to say.

But remember, and THIS IS KEY: if you fail to comprehend the text, it is not because of a weakness in the text. It is because your mind is failing to comprehend. There IS an answer. It is your duty to find it. That is the simple answer to that. It really isn't that hard.

Allow me to demonstrate by way of example. The Torah has often been used to display the idea that Moses did not write all of it, or for that matter, any of it. Instead, we are told that the Yahwist Source, the Elohist Source, the Priestly Source, and Deuteronomist Source wrote it (JEPD Sources). These sources later were redacted into one complete volume that we today know as the Pentateauch.

In a word, BULLSHIT. Moses wrote the Torah. Moses led the people out of Egypt. As far as numbers go, that is a debatable question. For an interesting take on that, read the following:  Source: http://www.askelm.com/secrets/sec095.htm

And the following:  Source: http://www.askelm.com/secrets/sec107.htm

Both are Christian sources, but contain much good information.

Anyway, why did Moses refer to God as "YHWH" at one point and as "Elohim" at another point? I don't know, and frankly, I don't care much. It was how he chose to do it, or how God told him to do it. Perhaps it had to do with the nature of God being first God, and later, friend. I am not sure. But both titles are acceptable to God.

And why would Deuteronomy have to be written separately from the other four books? There is absolutely no reason to assume this unless you have an agenda to push. And why would the Priests need to write their stuff separately? Moses WAS a Priest. He was uniquely qualified for writing that material as well as the rest of it. So, what is the major malfunction here?

The rest of the Hebrew Bible has no contradictions that can't be explained. It is your duty to see that they are, rather than questioning the text. So, grow up, put on your big-boy pants, and get to work!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 12, 2014, 08:13:51 PM
Eri is practically deistic with only a couple of interventions since the beginning of Ëa.

Yes, except he doesn't dare people to kill their kids before yelling "LOL JKS! Cut your doodle instead".
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 12, 2014, 08:43:16 PM
"Name
Moses' name is given to him by Pharaoh's daughter: "He became her son, and she named him Moshe (Moses)." This name may be either Egyptian or Hebrew. If connected to an Egyptian root, via msy "to be born" and ms, "a son", it forms a wordplay: "he became her son, and she named him Son." There should, however, be a divine element to the name Moses (bearers of the Egyptian name are the "son of" a god, as in Thutmose, "son of Thut"), and his full name may therefore have included the name of one of the Egyptian gods. If the name is from a Hebrew root, then it is connected to the verb "to draw out": "I drew him (masha) out of the water," states Pharaoh's daughter, possibly looking forward to Moses at the well in Midian, or to his role in saving Israel at the Red Sea. Most scholars agree that the name is Egyptian, and that the Hebrew etymology is a later interpretation.[11]" {Wikipedia}.

Therefore I expect his name was Moshe, but derived from the Egyptian, since his foster mother was Egyptian. I seriously doubt she would have called him anything in Hebrew. The fact that the word is also a word in Hebrew (meaning something else, of course), is coincidental, and lucky for us, particularly insofar as that "something else" has something to do with narrative of his birth (being drawn out of the water).

This doesn't prove that he was actually named Moses or Moshe.

Also:
The fact that you can't spell "retard" right speaks volumes. That is precisely the point. I won't speak for the so-called "New Testament". It is not a book I believe in, it is not a part of my Faith, and I consider it as irrelevant to my life as I do the Qur'an or the Bhagavad-Gita.

But, looking at the Jewish Bible alone of 24 Books (the Protestants divide these books differently and come up with 39, but the text is the same), the fact that they were written by so many people, and yet, are as consistent as they are is quite amazing. I estimate that the Hebrew Bible had approximately 25 authors in total. Looking at the text the way Protestants divide it, into 39 individual books (Jews count the Minor Prophets, of which there are 12, as one book, and they count 1 and 2 Kings, and 1 and 2 Samuel, and 1 and 2 Chronicles, and Ezra and Nehemiah, as each being one book), one can see that there is considerable unity in the text. Of course, your modern day so-called "liberal biblical scholars" would say otherwise. Not that that is particularly relevant, given that they can't even get the New Testament right regarding the so-called "Q" source. How could I possibly expect them to get the Divine Word right?

You telling me that there are websites devoted to the inconsistencies of the Bible is about as relevant as informing me that in reality, the Pope is indeed Catholic. I am aware of the websites, and have read quite a few of them. Invariably they are critical of Christianity, rather than Judaism, so they spend most of their time on the New Testament, or on a Christian interpretation of the Hebrew Bible.

Keep in mind, I have read the New Testament twice, which I expect is probably at least once or twice more than you have. I have  read the Hebrew Bible once in full, and the Torah twice, which again, is probably at least once or twice more than you have. And in Shul we go through the entire Torah once a year. So, that should count as well.

My inevitable conclusion to the Hebrew Scriptures is the following: If there is something in it that you do not understand, or that appears inconsistent, this is due to your lack of understanding. I would advise seeking out resources that are reliable, both pro and con, to bring to the matter, and exploring the true meaning of the text, and without taking the verses out of context. In fact, if at all you find verses that make no sense, don't just read those, but rather, read the entire chapter in which they appear, and perhaps the chapter before, and the chapter after. This will give you a background for what the author is trying to say.

But remember, and THIS IS KEY: if you fail to comprehend the text, it is not because of a weakness in the text. It is because your mind is failing to comprehend. There IS an answer. It is your duty to find it. That is the simple answer to that. It really isn't that hard.

Allow me to demonstrate by way of example. The Torah has often been used to display the idea that Moses did not write all of it, or for that matter, any of it. Instead, we are told that the Yahwist Source, the Elowist Source, the Priestly Source, and Deuteronomist Source wrote it (JEPD Sources). These sources later were redacted into one complete volume that we today know as the Pentateauch.

In a word, BULLSHIT. Moses wrote the Torah. Moses led the people out of Egypt. As far as numbers go, that is a debatable question. For an interesting take on that, read the following:  Source: http://www.askelm.com/secrets/sec095.htm (http://www.askelm.com/secrets/sec095.htm)

And the following:  Source: http://www.askelm.com/secrets/sec107.htm (http://www.askelm.com/secrets/sec107.htm)

Both are Christian sources, but contain much good information.

Anyway, why did Moses refer to God as "YHWH" at one point and as "Elohim" at another point? I don't know, and frankly, I don't care much. It was how he chose to do it, or how God told him to do it. Perhaps it had to do with the nature of God being first God, and later, friend. I am not sure. But both titles are acceptable to God.

And why would Deuteronomy have to be written separately from the other four books? There is absolutely no reason to assume this unless you have an agenda to push. And why would the Priests need to write their stuff separately? Moses WAS a Priest. He was uniquely qualified for writing that material as well as the rest of it. So, what is the major malfunction here?

The rest of the Hebrew Bible has no contradictions that can't be explained. It is your duty to see that they are, rather than questioning the text. So, grow up, put on your big-boy pants, and get to work!
Please stop this.  We're far more intelligent than you seem to assume.  We know, all too well, that you're being delusional if you honestly believe that "My Faith isn't wrong, you're just stupid/ignorant" is a valid argument. 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 12, 2014, 11:36:13 PM
Eri is practically deistic with only a couple of interventions since the beginning of Ëa.

Yes, except he doesn't dare people to kill their kids before yelling "LOL JKS! Cut your doodle instead".

Well he did annihilate the Great Armament of the Numenorians, so Eru was not exactly the nicest God ever.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 13, 2014, 12:28:52 AM
Eri is practically deistic with only a couple of interventions since the beginning of Ëa.

Yes, except he doesn't dare people to kill their kids before yelling "LOL JKS! Cut your doodle instead".

Well he did annihilate the Great Armament of the Numenorians, so Eru was not exactly the nicest God ever.

They sailed to Valinor in order to start a war, I think they got what they deserved.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 13, 2014, 03:20:04 AM
Eri is practically deistic with only a couple of interventions since the beginning of Ëa.

Yes, except he doesn't dare people to kill their kids before yelling "LOL JKS! Cut your doodle instead".

Well he did annihilate the Great Armament of the Numenorians, so Eru was not exactly the nicest God ever.

They sailed to Valinor in order to start a war, I think they got what they deserved.

Yaakov'd.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 13, 2014, 03:25:32 AM
QUOTE: "Please stop this.  We're far more intelligent than you seem to assume.  We know, all too well, that you're being delusional if you honestly believe that "My Faith isn't wrong, you're just stupid/ignorant" is a valid argument."

Well, you are clearly ignorant as the nature of Judaism. You seem to perceive Judaism as a Religion like any other. It is not. Judaism, as I have said many times, is the Civilisation of the Jewish People. Its largest component may be Religion, but it is hardly only that. Our Civilisation is such that it combines aspects of Religion with Culture, Philosophy, and even Folkways. So you take something as sublime as the Bible and combine it with inane aspects of the Yiddishkeit such as Yiddish jokes, and you have the beginnings of Judaism as a Civilisation. Of course, there is much more. Everything about being a Jew can be classified as "practicing Judaism", from eating and drinking to praying. Your claim of knowing anything all too well, that I am delusional, is simply you being ignorant. It holds valid only in your mind.

Keep in mind that Jews saw God on Mt. Sinai. We had a National Theophany. Unlike every other religion on the planet, who depend on one person to have seen God (whom they then identify as a Prophet), we as a People saw God. You can read about this in the book of Exodus. I would recommend the book to you, even if you are a non-believer, since you might learn a little something.

But Jews as a People accepted the Commandments of Torah. We were the only nation to do so. God made us a People for Himself. As such, we are His Chosen, to be a Light unto the Nations. We have brought Monotheism to the world, and stand before  God as the mediator between God and a sinful race. We are the Priesthood, if you will, of the human race.

It is said that you can tell the moral qualities of a nation by how it treats its Jews. That is the bellwether. If a nation treats its Jews well, then you can generally expect that said nation will be a nation wherein law and order will abide, and where none shall be afraid. In a land where the Jews are brutalised, you will generally see that other people end up treated the same way.

For more reference to "Judaism as a Civilization", see the book of that title, written in America by Mordecai M. Kaplan, the seminal work on the subject. Originally written in 1934, the text has remained in print ever since, as it is the magnum opus of the founding father of Reconstructionist Judaism.

Fundamentally,the Atheist comes into the impossible situation that, no matter how hard he tries, he cannot prove the non-existence, or even probable non-existence, of God. The Theist, on the other hand, can prove the probable existence of God. This has been done often in theological discourse.

And when the Atheist attempts to criticise the Hebrew Scriptures, he runs into the problem that we use the same text all over the world, namely, the Masoretic Text. Although other texts are sometimes used for reference, ultimately, the Masoretic Text is taken as standard. Given that Christianity has no idea what standard they use (in fact, it varies from denomination to denomination), this makes Judaism much more pleasant to study.

The text of the Jewish Bible is remarkably consistent for having app. 25 authors over a period of about 2600 years from Moshe to Malachi. If you are having a hard time "getting it", that is an issue within you, not the Bible.

The fact is, you are grossly ignorant of Judaism as a Civilisation. I would say that for someone who denies believing  in God, you seem to spend an AWFUL amount of time here and in other threads attempting to refute belief in God. Sucks to be you that you aren't very successful. The only people who agree with you are people who already agreed with you at the get-go.

So where does that leave us? Oh, yes, the claim that I am delusional. How so? Given that app. 90% of the world believes in a Higher Power, I would suggest to you that someone who believes that the Universe and all that therein is came about by accident is TOTALLY delusional. If NOTHING exists, then how can SOMETHING come to exist, without an Uncaused Cause? Read up on your Plato, then come talk to me. And Read up on your Hebrew Scriptures. Then come talk to me.

By the way, could we eliminate the LotR from discussion? Take it to another thread!


Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 13, 2014, 04:09:37 AM
In order:

1. Your immersion if your delusional belief in to your culture does not make it truer, only sadder.

2. Your only source for a national revelation is self referential and totally unreliable as such.

3. People can make current remarks about how cultures treat Jews and so on, but no serious thinker would imply morality is tied to treatment of Jews as there are moral cultures that would not have had contact with Jews until the last century or two. It is only a sassy intellectual exercise no different in intellectual  substance than this very thread.
 
4. Academics have shown by the always ethno-centric nature of religion and the spontaneous nature with which they can pop up (e.g. Cargo cults) that God is likely not to exist. As with all things in the scientific realm, there are no absolutes. We save those for you, the religious fanatic.

5. Atheists and agnostics spend a lot of time rebutting religious folk because of the dangerous and heinous thoughts that the religious utter, like casting aspersions on the millions of lawful and good Muslims because of the actions of some thousands.

6. 90% believe in some higher power ergo there must be God is utterly fallacious and goes by the name Argumentum ad Populem.

7. Again, I must stress that although creation need not be willful the laws of physics do not create phenomena by accident. Please learn the difference.

8. There have been many good arguments against the impossibility of an uncaused cause. Look them up your ignorance combined with acrimony and self-righteousness is unbecoming.

9. Eru's judgement upon the Great Armament was unjust because it was imposed upon a majority that were likely conscripted by the lords of Numenór. However, it was likely his last act in Eä and was obviously to preserve its unfolding cosmic harmony and as such could be viewed as righteous.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 13, 2014, 04:13:51 AM
Unlike every other religion on the planet, who depend on one person to have seen God (whom they then identify as a Prophet), we as a People saw God.

But Yaakov, you haven't seen god. That must mean you weren't the chosen people after all.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 13, 2014, 04:47:47 AM
Unlike every other religion on the planet, who depend on one person to have seen God (whom they then identify as a Prophet), we as a People saw God.

But Yaakov, you haven't seen god. That must mean you weren't the chosen people after all.

I don't have to have. When my Forefathers saw God, they accepted the Torah for them and their descendants.

In order:

1. Your immersion if your delusional belief in to your culture does not make it truer, only sadder.

Your statement is utterly illogical. The Jew's very continued existence against all odds is proof of that. And your claim that my culture is delusional is not backed up by any evidence. The fact is undeniable that a sizable number of persons SAW GOD at Mt. Sinai. You can do with that what you wish.

2. Your only source for a national revelation is self referential and totally unreliable as such.

I am again inclined to disagree. Since the history of my People is both oral and written, it is very likely to be as true as Troy. Remember Heinrich Schliemann. You have a whole nation that saw the Deity. That is hard to gainsay. I don't think its self referential at all. In fact, we have learned from experience how to wrestle with God. We know our forefathers saw him in the deserts of Sinai, but we also know that in the Holocaust, he was silent. So, we have learned to struggle with him. But we have never denied what our forefathers have told us. An entire nation for 4500 years doesn't lie about things like that and get away with it.

3. People can make current remarks about how cultures treat Jews and so on, but no serious thinker would imply morality is tied to treatment of Jews as there are moral cultures that would not have had contact with Jews until the last century or two. It is only a sassy intellectual exercise no different in intellectual  substance than this very thread.

I am, of course, speaking of those cultures that have had frequent interaction with Jews. Actually there was a survey done of 190 countries, in which it was determined that 26% of adults worldwide harboured anti-Semitic feelings. The largest percentage was in the "Palestinian" Territories, where it was 93%. The lowest was in Laos, where it was at 0.02%. Any serious thinker would consider the morality of a culture that has harboured Jews in its territory for a long period of time to be partially determined by how it has treated said Jews.
 
4. Academics have shown by the always ethno-centric nature of religion and the spontaneous nature with which they can pop up (e.g. Cargo cults) that God is likely not to exist. As with all things in the scientific realm, there are no absolutes. We save those for you, the religious fanatic.

Since the fact that religion popping up has nothing whatsoever to do with whether God actually exists or not, the whole point is irrelevant. Some savage on Papua New Guinea after WWII building fake aeroplanes to entice "the gods" back is no commentary on whether a Supreme Being actually exists or not. Any "academic" who says it is probably received his credentials from a Cracker Jack box. As I said in an earlier post, the Atheist has no proof or even probable proof that God does not exist. At least the Theist has probable proof that he does.

5. Atheists and agnostics spend a lot of time rebutting religious folk because of the dangerous and heinous thoughts that the religious utter, like casting aspersions on the millions of lawful and good Muslims because of the actions of some thousands.

Of course, I'll keep in mind the dangerous thoughts of the atheists during the French Revolution, or the Russian, or the Chinese, or the Cambodian, or the Ethiopian, or... Lets see how many millions of people State sponsored Atheism has managed to kill. In Russia, some 40 million. In China, some 60 million. In Cambodia, 2 million. Shall I continue?

6. 90% believe in some higher power ergo there must be God is utterly fallacious and goes by the name Argumentum ad Populem.

I am not using the argument in that sense. I am merely saying that it is not up to us to prove to you that God exists. It is up to you to prove otherwise.

7. Again, I must stress that although creation need not be willful the laws of physics do not create phenomena by accident. Please learn the difference.

We've been over this. Please demonstrate. If you are not able to, then be silent.

8. There have been many good arguments against the impossibility of an uncaused cause. Look them up your ignorance combined with acrimony and self-righteousness is unbecoming.

Demonstrate or be silent. Plato, Aristotle, and MANY others would disagree, thank you.

9. Eru's judgement upon the Great Armament was unjust because it was imposed upon a majority that were likely conscripted by the lords of Numenór. However, it was likely his last act in Eä and was obviously to preserve its unfolding cosmic harmony and as such could be viewed as righteous.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 13, 2014, 04:55:54 AM
Atheism is Communism now.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 13, 2014, 05:07:29 AM
No, but Atheism was essentially the State Faith of Communism, lets be blunt. I am a member of the Communist Party USA, so I don't object to Communism per se, and neither does the Party. But lets be honest. The first people to go to their deaths were monks, nuns, priests, and Lams, Christian and Buddhist.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 13, 2014, 05:19:33 AM
In order:

1. Your immersion if your delusional belief in to your culture does not make it truer, only sadder.

Your statement is utterly illogical. The Jew's very continued existence against all odds is proof of that. And your claim that my culture is delusional is not backed up by any evidence. The fact is undeniable that a sizable number of persons SAW GOD at Mt. Sinai. You can do with that what you wish.

It is not a fact of any sort that a sizable number of people saw God. Between the self-referential nature of the bible, the penchant for the religious to interpret their texts in turn as literal or metaphorical, as they see fit and the complete lack of God's appearance to any other than the chosen people, it seems far more likely that God did not appear to the unwashed masses but rather the author of that particular portion of text was fulfiling a political agenda or some other corporeal need.

Quote
2. Your only source for a national revelation is self referential and totally unreliable as such.

I am again inclined to disagree. Since the history of my People is both oral and written, it is very likely to be as true as Troy.

You are not claiming the gods fought at Troy are you? Because that is what the mythological texts say. I treat the bible in the same light. Mythologized ancestry, nothing more.

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Remember Heinrich Schliemann. You have a whole nation that saw the Deity. That is hard to gainsay.

Except that we don't have the testimony of a nation do we?  We have the words of the sole author of that section of the Torah. Quite easy to gainsay.

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I don't think its self referential at all. In fact, we have learned from experience how to wrestle with God. We know our forefathers saw him in the deserts of Sinai, but we also know that in the Holocaust, he was silent. So, we have learned to struggle with him. But we have never denied what our forefathers have told us. An entire nation for 4500 years doesn't lie about things like that and get away with it.[/size]
Irrelevant.

Quote
3. People can make current remarks about how cultures treat Jews and so on, but no serious thinker would imply morality is tied to treatment of Jews as there are moral cultures that would not have had contact with Jews until the last century or two. It is only a sassy intellectual exercise no different in intellectual  substance than this very thread.

I am, of course, speaking of those cultures that have had frequent interaction with Jews. Actually there was a survey done of 190 countries, in which it was determined that 26% of adults worldwide harboured anti-Semitic feelings. The largest percentage was in the "Palestinian" Territories, where it was 93%. The lowest was in Laos, where it was at 0.02%. Any serious thinker would consider the morality of a culture that has harboured Jews in its territory for a long period of time to be partially determined by how it has treated said Jews.

I disagree and you have hardly made your case. Obviously the Palestinians would treat Jews badly, as anyone would treat their oppressive overlord. Your factoids don't happen to give any context either. I can determine exactly nothing about the subject from what you have told me.
 
Quote
4. Academics have shown by the always ethno-centric nature of religion and the spontaneous nature with which they can pop up (e.g. Cargo cults) that God is likely not to exist. As with all things in the scientific realm, there are no absolutes. We save those for you, the religious fanatic.

Since the fact that religion popping up has nothing whatsoever to do with whether God actually exists or not, the whole point is irrelevant. Some savage on Papua New Guinea after WWII building fake aeroplanes to entice "the gods" back is no commentary on whether a Supreme Being actually exists or not. Any "academic" who says it is probably received his credentials from a Cracker Jack box. As I said in an earlier post, the Atheist has no proof or even probable proof that God does not exist. At least the Theist has probable proof that he does.

I dare say the ease with which religions, professing privileged divine relations, pop up is a good indicator that religions hardly occur because of an actual divine relationship it rather because of a fact of human psychology and sociology.

Also, you can drop the notion that theists have "proof" based on arguments like Anselm's, et al.  These constitute nothing empirical, but rather a logical framework under which a God could occur. Nothing definitive, only something notional. There is no reason to suspect that metaphysical ideas must actually exist. 

Quote
5. Atheists and agnostics spend a lot of time rebutting religious folk because of the dangerous and heinous thoughts that the religious utter, like casting aspersions on the millions of lawful and good Muslims because of the actions of some thousands.

Of course, I'll keep in mind the dangerous thoughts of the atheists during the French Revolution, or the Russian, or the Chinese, or the Cambodian, or the Ethiopian, or... Lets see how many millions of people State sponsored Atheism has managed to kill. In Russia, some 40 million. In China, some 60 million. In Cambodia, 2 million. Shall I continue?

Please don't. This is like the religious version of Godwin's law. Nothing was done in the name of Atheism but rather under the guise of ideologies like communism, which you also espouse. Stop your emotional appeal.

Quote
6. 90% believe in some higher power ergo there must be God is utterly fallacious and goes by the name Argumentum ad Populem.

I am not using the argument in that sense. I am merely saying that it is not up to us to prove to you that God exists. It is up to you to prove otherwise.

I carry no burden of proof since my position is merely that your proof of God's existence is utterly unconvincing. All you have shown is an ancient text, written thousands of years ago by the power brokers of the time with no evidence of any supernatural occurrence since then that is anything more than anecdotal. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Quote
7. Again, I must stress that although creation need not be willful the laws of physics do not create phenomena by accident. Please learn the difference.

We've been over this. Please demonstrate. If you are not able to, then be silent.
Demonstrate what exactly?  That the laws of physics on the macro scale are deterministic?  This is hardly controversial. Please demonstrate that a creator is responsible for the universe's existence.

Quote
8. There have been many good arguments against the impossibility of an uncaused cause. Look them up your ignorance combined with acrimony and self-righteousness is unbecoming.

Demonstrate or be silent. Plato, Aristotle, and MANY others would disagree, thank you.
Argument from authority. You suck. Watch this rebuttal to the Kalam Cosmologocal Argument that tackles the exact territory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEw8VzzXcjE

Quote
9. Eru's judgement upon the Great Armament was unjust because it was imposed upon a majority that were likely conscripted by the lords of Numenór. However, it was likely his last act in Eä and was obviously to preserve its unfolding cosmic harmony and as such could be viewed as righteous.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 13, 2014, 05:44:47 AM
In order:

1. Your immersion if your delusional belief in to your culture does not make it truer, only sadder.

Your statement is utterly illogical. The Jew's very continued existence against all odds is proof of that. And your claim that my culture is delusional is not backed up by any evidence. The fact is undeniable that a sizable number of persons SAW GOD at Mt. Sinai. You can do with that what you wish.

It is not a fact of any sort that a sizable number of people saw God. Between the self-referential nature of the bible, the penchant for the religious to interpret their texts in turn as literal or metaphorical, as they see fit and the complete lack of God's appearance to any other than the chosen people, it seems far more likely that God did not appear to the unwashed masses but rather the author of that particular portion of text was fulfiling a political agenda or some other corporeal need.

You can choose to reject the idea that an entire nation saw God. Your great great great great great grandchildren can also reject the idea that an entire nation fought the American Revolution.

Quote
2. Your only source for a national revelation is self referential and totally unreliable as such.

I am again inclined to disagree. Since the history of my People is both oral and written, it is very likely to be as true as Troy.

You are not claiming the gods fought at Troy are you? Because that is what the mythological texts say. I treat the bible in the same light. Mythologized ancestry, nothing more.

I'm not claiming anything about deities. But it wouldn't surprise me if angels weren't on hand that the Greeks thought were gods. And the fact that you are willing to disregard the evidence of 2 million persons (refer to my post above on that) makes you out to be acting the fool, nothing more.

Quote
Remember Heinrich Schliemann. You have a whole nation that saw the Deity. That is hard to gainsay.

Except that we don't have the testimony of a nation do we?  We have the words of the sole author of that section of the Torah. Quite easy to gainsay.

We have the words of Moses, and the testimony of every Jew who learned it at his father's knee for the 4500 years since it happened. Oral history has been proven right before. Again, I would direct you to Troy.

Quote
I don't think its self referential at all. In fact, we have learned from experience how to wrestle with God. We know our forefathers saw him in the deserts of Sinai, but we also know that in the Holocaust, he was silent. So, we have learned to struggle with him. But we have never denied what our forefathers have told us. An entire nation for 4500 years doesn't lie about things like that and get away with it.[/size]
Irrelevant.

Quote
3. People can make current remarks about how cultures treat Jews and so on, but no serious thinker would imply morality is tied to treatment of Jews as there are moral cultures that would not have had contact with Jews until the last century or two. It is only a sassy intellectual exercise no different in intellectual  substance than this very thread.

I am, of course, speaking of those cultures that have had frequent interaction with Jews. Actually there was a survey done of 190 countries, in which it was determined that 26% of adults worldwide harboured anti-Semitic feelings. The largest percentage was in the "Palestinian" Territories, where it was 93%. The lowest was in Laos, where it was at 0.02%. Any serious thinker would consider the morality of a culture that has harboured Jews in its territory for a long period of time to be partially determined by how it has treated said Jews.

I disagree and you have hardly made your case. Obviously the Palestinians would treat Jews badly, as anyone would treat their oppressive overlord. Your factoids don't happen to give any context either. I can determine exactly nothing about the subject from what you have told me.

Since the "Palestinians" are the ones who started the conflict, they are the ones who deserve the treatment, not us. Frankly, they deserve to be eliminated, through deportation. Trust me, Israel is by far a much kinder "overlord" than they deserve.
 
Quote
4. Academics have shown by the always ethno-centric nature of religion and the spontaneous nature with which they can pop up (e.g. Cargo cults) that God is likely not to exist. As with all things in the scientific realm, there are no absolutes. We save those for you, the religious fanatic.

Since the fact that religion popping up has nothing whatsoever to do with whether God actually exists or not, the whole point is irrelevant. Some savage on Papua New Guinea after WWII building fake aeroplanes to entice "the gods" back is no commentary on whether a Supreme Being actually exists or not. Any "academic" who says it is probably received his credentials from a Cracker Jack box. As I said in an earlier post, the Atheist has no proof or even probable proof that God does not exist. At least the Theist has probable proof that he does.

I dare say the ease with which religions, professing privileged divine relations, pop up is a good indicator that religions hardly occur because of an actual divine relationship it rather because of a fact of human psychology and sociology.

Also, you can drop the notion that theists have "proof" based on arguments like Anselm's, et al.  These constitute nothing empirical, but rather a logical framework under which a God could occur. Nothing definitive, only something notional. There is no reason to suspect that metaphysical ideas must actually exist. 

I'm only suggesting that we have more probable proof, not deductive proof. So your point is entirely irrelevant.

Quote
5. Atheists and agnostics spend a lot of time rebutting religious folk because of the dangerous and heinous thoughts that the religious utter, like casting aspersions on the millions of lawful and good Muslims because of the actions of some thousands.

Of course, I'll keep in mind the dangerous thoughts of the atheists during the French Revolution, or the Russian, or the Chinese, or the Cambodian, or the Ethiopian, or... Lets see how many millions of people State sponsored Atheism has managed to kill. In Russia, some 40 million. In China, some 60 million. In Cambodia, 2 million. Shall I continue?

Please don't. This is like the religious version of Godwin's law. Nothing was done in the name of Atheism but rather under the guise of ideologies like communism, which you also espouse. Stop your emotional appeal.

Hardly Godwin's. Simply an acknowledgement that all the governments that have been brutally atheist have been murderous thugs, and the first victims have always been the monks, priests, nuns, and Rabbis.

Quote
6. 90% believe in some higher power ergo there must be God is utterly fallacious and goes by the name Argumentum ad Populem.

I am not using the argument in that sense. I am merely saying that it is not up to us to prove to you that God exists. It is up to you to prove otherwise.

I carry no burden of proof since my position is merely that your proof of God's existence is utterly unconvincing. All you have shown is an ancient text, written thousands of years ago by the power brokers of the time with no evidence of any supernatural occurrence since then that is anything more than anecdotal. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

It is far more extraordinary to claim that the universe just exists randomly. So show me your evidence.

Quote
7. Again, I must stress that although creation need not be willful the laws of physics do not create phenomena by accident. Please learn the difference.

We've been over this. Please demonstrate. If you are not able to, then be silent.
Demonstrate what exactly?  That the laws of physics on the macro scale are deterministic?  This is hardly controversial. Please demonstrate that a creator is responsible for the universe's existence.

I have no need to demonstrate that a Creator is responsible. That's already been done by men smarter than me. Pick up a book or two. You have to prove to me that without a Creator, things can happen by accident, or even worse, by design (which is,without doubt, one of the dumbest things I have ever heard). A thing cannot occur on purpose without an inelligence behind it.

Quote
8. There have been many good arguments against the impossibility of an uncaused cause. Look them up your ignorance combined with acrimony and self-righteousness is unbecoming.

Demonstrate or be silent. Plato, Aristotle, and MANY others would disagree, thank you.
Argument from authority. You suck. Watch this rebuttal to the Kalam Cosmologocal Argument that tackles the exact territory.

Its not an Argument from Authority when the Authority is accurate.That's like saying it will rain because the weather man said so and being accused of arguing from authority.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEw8VzzXcjE

Quote
9. Eru's judgement upon the Great Armament was unjust because it was imposed upon a majority that were likely conscripted by the lords of Numenór. However, it was likely his last act in Eä and was obviously to preserve its unfolding cosmic harmony and as such could be viewed as righteous.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 13, 2014, 06:05:41 AM
Jesus, learn to quote properly already.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 13, 2014, 06:08:50 AM
Jesus, learn to quote properly already.

I do quote properly. I just want it to clear who is me and who is he.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 13, 2014, 07:43:13 AM
No, but Atheism was essentially the State Faith of Communism, lets be blunt. I am a member of the Communist Party USA, so I don't object to Communism per se, and neither does the Party. But lets be honest. The first people to go to their deaths were monks, nuns, priests, and Lams, Christian and Buddhist.

Communism is secular, just like the US.

9. Eru's judgement upon the Great Armament was unjust because it was imposed upon a majority that were likely conscripted by the lords of Numenór. However, it was likely his last act in Eä and was obviously to preserve its unfolding cosmic harmony and as such could be viewed as righteous.

Actually, Tolkien essentially said that Eru pushed Golum into Mt. Doom. He also brought Gandalf back, since the Valar don't have that power. I also disagree with the innocence of the Numenoreans. I think at that stage, their society at large despised Eru and those who dwelt in the undying lands. There were a few Numenoreans who fled East, and did not stay on Numenor nor participate in the fleet that sailed West. They were the ones who founded Gondor, and stayed faithful to the command of not stepping foot in Valinor.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 13, 2014, 12:24:15 PM
I appear to have miswritten myself. "I am a member of the Communist Party USA, so I don't object to atheism as such in an individual as long as it's polite. But, lets be honest. The first people to go to their deaths in Communist states along the lines of the USSR were monks, nuns, priests, Rabbis, and Lamas, Christian and Buddhist." I believe that Communism at its best is not at all antagonistic to religion, or at least, doesn't have to be. But lets face it. Soviet style (and Chinese) style Communism were both State Atheist, as North Korean style  Communism is today. They are all three historically incredibly vicious toward anything that even hints of belief in God.

All three of the forms of Communism mentioned above are FAR more vicious toward believers than believers ever have been toward atheism or toward each other. Of course, every American, or at least most, stupidly makes the statement, "religion is the cause of all the wars." Not only is such a statement untrue, it is simply stupid in the extreme. In reality, most wars are a conflict of nationalism, or over natural resources.

Taking the Middle East for example, Jews and Muslims are not fighting each other for religious reasons. They are fighting each other because Arabs claim the land on which the Jews have a patrimony, and vice versa. Religion is used to justify said patrimony. It is a secondary reason, not a primary one. Even if both groups were the SAME religion, they would probably STILL not be fond of each other. The fact that ISIS makes people convert to Islam, and then kills them anyway, is an example of this.

And the Middle East is one part of the world where it can safely be said that religion DOES actually play a pretty large role in things. Outside of there, it plays almost NO role in shaping conflicts. Even in the Indo-Pak situation, it is mostly natural resources they are fighting over at this point, although religion is used as an excuse.

Religion has been used A LOT as an excuse, but that is exactly what it is. There is ALWAYS something else that impels the conflicts. Religion is NEVER the reason, although it may be the STATED reason.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 13, 2014, 01:04:41 PM
Yaakov-
1. To say the revelation is as historical as the Anerican Revolution is terrifyingly inaccurate. Please talk to a PhD student about your idea and witness the blank and slightly troubled look you get.

2.Millions of people and only one surviving historical source... Not even one other written account amongst your gloriously literate society of antiquity. That strikes me as exactly what I would expect of the revelation were a myth.

3. I am not referring to whether or not the Oalestinians are getting what's coming to them merely that it is not at all surprising that they do have enmity with the Jews.

4. What is your standard of probability? Personal credulity?

5.Correlation does not equal causation.

6. Read "A Universe from Nothing" by Lawrence Krauss.

7. I never said the universe exists and have pointed out that the laws of physics are deterministic. What's the problem here?

8. I have provided a rebuttal to Plato and Aristotle and you are asserting they are right merely because of who they are. Sounds like an argument from authority.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 13, 2014, 04:19:14 PM
Yaakov-
1. To say the revelation is as historical as the American Revolution is terrifyingly inaccurate. Please talk to a PhD student about your idea and witness the blank and slightly troubled look you get.

The only reason it is thought of as less accurate is because it happened a LONG time ago, vs 238 years ago. Give it a few thousand years, and see how mythologised the American Revolution becomes. Hell, just watch Mel Gibson's "The Patriot", and see how mythologised it already is. For more on the Exodus from Egypt, read the Pocket Bible Handbook, by Henry H. Halley, 18th Edition, 2nd Printing, copyright 1950, pp. 106-127. Although Christian, and with considerable faults, it is still a pretty good reference. The book is still in print, but the current 25th Edition, though it does have its strengths, is generally not as good.However, for your reference, Halley's Bible Handbook, with the New International Version, copyright 2000, 2007 by Halley's Bible Handbook, Inc. It is done through Zondervan. I have it on my Nook, so no pagination, but the Chapter is "The Exodus from Egypt: Exodus-Deuteronomy".

2.Millions of people and only one surviving historical source... Not even one other written account amongst your gloriously literate society of antiquity. That strikes me as exactly what I would expect of the revelation were a myth.

And you are forgetting the non-canonical sources such as the Book of Jubilees, and other sources.

3. I am not referring to whether or not the Palestinians are getting what's coming to them merely that it is not at all surprising that they do have enmity with the Jews.

Understood.

4. What is your standard of probability? Personal credulity?

No response necessary.

5.Correlation does not equal causation.

Except insofar as that was the stated aim of the governments in question.

6. Read "A Universe from Nothing" by Lawrence Krauss.

Summarise, please.l

7. I never said the universe exists and have pointed out that the laws of physics are deterministic. What's the problem here?

The universe doesn't exist?

8. I have provided a rebuttal to Plato and Aristotle and you are asserting they are right merely because of who they are. Sounds like an argument from authority.

I don't have 2 hours to listen to an argument. Summarise, please.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 13, 2014, 06:22:30 PM
Yaakov: You liar.  You big, fat, ugly, liar. I can't believe you can come in here and spout such horrible lies as fact.

You claim it's fact that Jews saw God at Mt. Sinai yet your own book says this is a lie. 

The Jews saw only smoke, not God.  They HEARD a voice, but saw nothing. 

For those interested let me paint you a picture:

Moses hears God tell him to go up a mountain.  He "talks" to God who tells him to tell everyone to listen to him because he did all the stuff for them.  So Moses comes back and tells his people who then agree.  So Moses has to go BACK up the mountain to tell God what they said.  At which point God tells them to get nice and clean and holy in 2 days and on the third, he'll talk to them.  Oh and that if anyone climbs the mountain or even touches it, they'll die. 

So on the third day, the mountain is covered in smoke with a big fire at the top (fire causes smoke FYI) and a loud voice proclaims the commandments. So Moses goes BACK up the mountain after this and spends 40 days and 40 nights to "receive" the stone tablets, the written Torah AND the Oral Torah.  So one guy was on a mountain, alone, and after 40 days, he returns with two written works and one oral one.  Why would it take God 40 days to give him this stuff?  It would take 10 seconds, max.  It's FAR more likely that it was Moses who did it.  Especially since he came back, broke the stone tablets, and had to go back for 40 days and nights to get new ones.

If this were any other religion, you'd call Moses a con man.  But because you were brainwashed into believing this, you can't accept any evidence contrary.

Moses was the original Wizard of Oz.  So put on your big boy pants and accept the truth.  Stop being a child who accepts dragons because your friends say someone saw one.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 13, 2014, 06:50:03 PM
Yaakov-
1. To say the revelation is as historical as the American Revolution is terrifyingly inaccurate. Please talk to a PhD student about your idea and witness the blank and slightly troubled look you get.

The only reason it is thought of as less accurate is because it happened a LONG time ago, vs 238 years ago. Give it a few thousand years, and see how mythologised the American Revolution becomes. Hell, just watch Mel Gibson's "The Patriot", and see how mythologised it already is. For more on the Exodus from Egypt, read the Pocket Bible Handbook, by Henry H. Halley, 18th Edition, 2nd Printing, copyright 1950, pp. 106-127. Although Christian, and with considerable faults, it is still a pretty good reference. The book is still in print, but the current 25th Edition, though it does have its strengths, is generally not as good.However, for your reference, Halley's Bible Handbook, with the New International Version, copyright 2000, 2007 by Halley's Bible Handbook, Inc. It is done through Zondervan. I have it on my Nook, so no pagination, but the Chapter is "The Exodus from Egypt: Exodus-Deuteronomy".

So as we get further from the event it becomes more mythologized. This does not help your argument really.

Quote
2.Millions of people and only one surviving historical source... Not even one other written account amongst your gloriously literate society of antiquity. That strikes me as exactly what I would expect of the revelation were a myth.

And you are forgetting the non-canonical sources such as the Book of Jubilees, and other sources.

How many sources refer to the revelation?

Quote
3. I am not referring to whether or not the Palestinians are getting what's coming to them merely that it is not at all surprising that they do have enmity with the Jews.

Understood.

4. What is your standard of probability? Personal credulity?

No response necessary.

So you concede and we need not take metaphysical arguments as evidence. Glad we agree.

Quote
5.Correlation does not equal causation.

Except insofar as that was the stated aim of the governments in question.

Citation required.

Quote
6. Read "A Universe from Nothing" by Lawrence Krauss.

Summarise, please.l

That it is plausible that the universe can arise from the quantum fluctuations of empty space.

Quote
7. I never said the universe exists and have pointed out that the laws of physics are deterministic. What's the problem here?

The universe doesn't exist?

Oops!  Not sure what I meant by the first part however I have pointed out that laws of physics are deterministic and as such are non-random.

Quote
8. I have provided a rebuttal to Plato and Aristotle and you are asserting they are right merely because of who they are. Sounds like an argument from authority.

I don't have 2 hours to listen to an argument. Summarise, please.

That not everything that begins to exist must have a cause. We are not capable of making this statement with any sort of certainty.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 13, 2014, 10:15:44 PM
Yaakov: You liar.  You big, fat, ugly, liar. I can't believe you can come in here and spout such horrible lies as fact.

You claim it's fact that Jews saw God at Mt. Sinai yet your own book says this is a lie. 

The Jews saw only smoke, not God.  They HEARD a voice, but saw nothing. 

For those interested let me paint you a picture:

Moses hears God tell him to go up a mountain.  He "talks" to God who tells him to tell everyone to listen to him because he did all the stuff for them.  So Moses comes back and tells his people who then agree.  So Moses has to go BACK up the mountain to tell God what they said.  At which point God tells them to get nice and clean and holy in 2 days and on the third, he'll talk to them.  Oh and that if anyone climbs the mountain or even touches it, they'll die. 

So on the third day, the mountain is covered in smoke with a big fire at the top (fire causes smoke FYI) and a loud voice proclaims the commandments. So Moses goes BACK up the mountain after this and spends 40 days and 40 nights to "receive" the stone tablets, the written Torah AND the Oral Torah.  So one guy was on a mountain, alone, and after 40 days, he returns with two written works and one oral one.  Why would it take God 40 days to give him this stuff?  It would take 10 seconds, max.  It's FAR more likely that it was Moses who did it.  Especially since he came back, broke the stone tablets, and had to go back for 40 days and nights to get new ones.

It would take 40 days at least to write the Written Torah by hand. The Oral Torah would take at LEAST that long to memorise. Then he would have to do it again!

If this were any other religion, you'd call Moses a con man.  But because you were brainwashed into believing this, you can't accept any evidence contrary.

Moses was the original Wizard of Oz.  So put on your big boy pants and accept the truth.  Stop being a child who accepts dragons because your friends say someone saw one.

I would say it's time for you to put on your big-boy pants and admit that 2 million people at one time don't lie and get away with it. Grow up.

"Chapter 19
19:1 In the third month after the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.

19:2 And when they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the wilderness of Sinai, they encamped in the wilderness; and there Israel encamped before the mount.

19:3 And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying: 'Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel:

19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto Myself.

19:5 Now therefore, if ye will hearken unto My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, then ye shall be Mine own treasure from among all peoples; for all the earth is Mine;

19:6 and ye shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.'

19:7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and set before them all these words which the Lord commanded him.

19:8 And all the people answered together, and said: 'All that the Lord hath spoken we will do.' And Moses reported the words of the people unto the Lord. 9 And the Lord said unto Moses: 'Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and may also believe thee for ever.' And Moses told the words of the people unto the Lord.

19:10 And the Lord said unto Moses: 'Go unto the people, and sanctify them to-day and to-morrow, and let them wash their garments,

19:11 and be ready against the third day; for the third day the Lord will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.

Notice: He will come down in the sight of all the people. All 2 million of them.

19:12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying: Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it; whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death;

19:13 no hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live; when the ram's horn soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.'

19:14 And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their garments.

19:15 And he said unto the people: 'Be ready against the third day; come not near a woman.' 16 And it came to pass on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunders and lightnings and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of a horn exceeding loud; and all the people that were in the camp trembled.

Notice: Thunder and lightning and a thick cloud on the mount. This implies nowhere else.

19:17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.

19:18 Now mount Sinai was altogether on smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire; and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.

Notice: the Lord descended in fire on the mountain. What do you want him to do, show up as Derek Jeter?

19:19 And when the voice of the horn waxed louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him by a voice.

Moses speaks, and then God blantantly speaks. Damn!

19:20 And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, to the top of the mount; and the Lord called Moses to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.

19:21 And the Lord said unto Moses: 'Go down, charge the people, lest they break through unto the Lord to gaze, and many of them perish.

19:22 And let the priests also, that come near to the Lord, sanctify themselves, lest the Lord break forth upon them.'

19:23 And Moses said unto the Lord: 'The people cannot come up to mount Sinai; for thou didst charge us, saying: Set bounds about the mount, and sanctify it.'

19:24 And the Lord said unto him: 'Go, get thee down, and thou shalt come up, thou, and Aaron with thee; but let not the priests and the people break through to come up unto the Lord, lest He break forth upon them.'

19:25 So Moses went down unto the people, and told them.

Chapter 20
20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying:

20:2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;

20:5 thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me;

20:6 and showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments.

20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain.

20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work;

20:10 but the seventh day is a sabbath unto the Lord thy God, in it thou shalt not do any manner of work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates;

20:11 for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh day; wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. 12 Honour thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

20:13 Thou shalt not murder.

20:13 Thou shalt not commit adultery.

20:13 Thou shalt not steal.

20:13 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

20:14 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house; thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. 15 And all the people perceived the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the voice of the horn, and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled, and stood afar off.

20:16 And they said unto Moses: 'Speak thou with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die.'

20:17 And Moses said unto the people: 'Fear not; for God is come to prove you, and that His fear may be before you, that ye sin not.'

20:18 And the people stood afar off; but Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.

One assumes that there was no thick darkness elsewhere.

19 And the Lord said unto Moses: Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel: Ye yourselves have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.

20:20 Ye shall not make with Me--gods of silver, or gods of gold, ye shall not make unto you.

20:21 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto Me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt-offerings, and thy peace-offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen; in every place where I cause My name to be mentioned I will come unto thee and bless thee.

20:22 And if thou make Me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stones; for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast profaned it.

20:23 Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto Mine altar, that thy nakedness be not uncovered thereon."

Source: Tanach, Jewish Publication Society. http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/exodus-jps.html

I am astounded at your line of argumentation being so poor. I thought I was actually going to be challenged seriously. Wow. That was seriously weak, friend. When I can give you a kicking that badly in 10 minutes, I am disappointed, really. Better luck next time. If at first you don't succeed...

Of course, you will say that this proves nothing. But, you, like so many, fail to keep the rest of the Torah in context, namely, remembering the people the Lord has stricken down in His wrath. The Wizard of Oz didn't do that, and neither did Moses.  God did that. Try again...
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 13, 2014, 10:32:38 PM
Yaakov-
1. To say the revelation is as historical as the American Revolution is terrifyingly inaccurate. Please talk to a PhD student about your idea and witness the blank and slightly troubled look you get.

The only reason it is thought of as less accurate is because it happened a LONG time ago, vs 238 years ago. Give it a few thousand years, and see how mythologised the American Revolution becomes. Hell, just watch Mel Gibson's "The Patriot", and see how mythologised it already is. For more on the Exodus from Egypt, read the Pocket Bible Handbook, by Henry H. Halley, 18th Edition, 2nd Printing, copyright 1950, pp. 106-127. Although Christian, and with considerable faults, it is still a pretty good reference. The book is still in print, but the current 25th Edition, though it does have its strengths, is generally not as good.However, for your reference, Halley's Bible Handbook, with the New International Version, copyright 2000, 2007 by Halley's Bible Handbook, Inc. It is done through Zondervan. I have it on my Nook, so no pagination, but the Chapter is "The Exodus from Egypt: Exodus-Deuteronomy".

So as we get further from the event it becomes more mythologized. This does not help your argument really.

It helps insofar as it recognises that mythologising occurs with anything. The Exodus is as believable as the American Revolution will one day be.

Quote
2.Millions of people and only one surviving historical source... Not even one other written account amongst your gloriously literate society of antiquity. That strikes me as exactly what I would expect of the revelation were a myth.

And you are forgetting the non-canonical sources such as the Book of Jubilees, and other sources.

How many sources refer to the revelation?

I would have to check. I know the Book of Jubilees does. I know there are others. As far as numbers, I am not certain.

Quote
3. I am not referring to whether or not the Palestinians are getting what's coming to them merely that it is not at all surprising that they do have enmity with the Jews.

Understood.

4. What is your standard of probability? Personal credulity?

No response necessary.

So you concede and we need not take metaphysical arguments as evidence. Glad we agree.

I do not concede. I simply consider that you do not have an argument worth a response.

Quote
5.Correlation does not equal causation.

Except insofar as that was the stated aim of the governments in question.

Citation required.

The Dalai Lama. Chairman Mao repeatedly told him that religion was poison. The Cultural Revolution in which all religion was intended to be wiped out across the country. In Albania, which was officially declared an Atheist country in 1967, wherein EVERY single house of worship was closed, and where owning a Bible or Qur'an was punishable by death or long prison sentences. It was the only country in the world that actually went so far as to declare itself officially Atheist, and actually outlawed religion outright, although ALL Soviet, Chinese, and Korean style Communist countries severely curtailed the rights of believers. In the USSR, it was illegal to teach one's faith to anyone under the age of 18, even one's own children.

Quote
6. Read "A Universe from Nothing" by Lawrence Krauss.

Summarise, please.l

That it is plausible that the universe can arise from the quantum fluctuations of empty space.

It might arise, but what kind of order would it have? Sounds like it would be pretty random to me.

Quote
7. I never said the universe exists and have pointed out that the laws of physics are deterministic. What's the problem here?

The universe doesn't exist?

Oops!  Not sure what I meant by the first part however I have pointed out that laws of physics are deterministic and as such are non-random.

Citation needed please.

Quote
8. I have provided a rebuttal to Plato and Aristotle and you are asserting they are right merely because of who they are. Sounds like an argument from authority.

I don't have 2 hours to listen to an argument. Summarise, please.

That not everything that begins to exist must have a cause. We are not capable of making this statement with any sort of certainty.

Forgive me, but saying that something exists without cause is utterly illogical in the extreme. That is absurd. I'll just leave that one there.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 13, 2014, 10:33:57 PM
This is starting to look like a sandokhan thread.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 13, 2014, 10:59:46 PM
God spoke in old english? interesting
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 13, 2014, 11:03:51 PM
Ha. Very funny. That would be the 1917 JPS Translation, rather than the 1985 Translation, updated 1999. I pulled it off the Internet, as the Source indicates.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 13, 2014, 11:59:10 PM
So the American Revolution one day will sound like the Exodus. So your point is that one day in the future a completely mundane event will be characterized as supernatural, even though it wasn't. Got it. Can we move on?

Asking a question about your standard of what is probable is not even an argument. You know that right?

By your comments about atheist countries it appears you do not understand what a citation is. Please try again.

In regards to your comment bout a universe arising from nothing why are you using your opinion about what it seems like the universe should be?  Are you an expert in cosmology?  Here is a source that discusses in part how QM and other natural laws are deterministic.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/quantum-physics-free-will/

So please drop this nonsense that the universe is random. It only appears that way due to a lack of information. Again: universe=non-random=creation need not be an accident in the absence of a prime-mover.

Of course my summation of a PhD philosopher's argument may sound absurd on its face. Maybe you should take the time to listen to what the expert has to say instead of making an argument from personal credulity.

(Sorry for the lack of quotes, on my phone and don't have time to parse it all.)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 14, 2014, 12:24:06 AM
Yaakov: You liar.  You big, fat, ugly, liar. I can't believe you can come in here and spout such horrible lies as fact.

You claim it's fact that Jews saw God at Mt. Sinai yet your own book says this is a lie. 

The Jews saw only smoke, not God.  They HEARD a voice, but saw nothing. 

For those interested let me paint you a picture:

Moses hears God tell him to go up a mountain.  He "talks" to God who tells him to tell everyone to listen to him because he did all the stuff for them.  So Moses comes back and tells his people who then agree.  So Moses has to go BACK up the mountain to tell God what they said.  At which point God tells them to get nice and clean and holy in 2 days and on the third, he'll talk to them.  Oh and that if anyone climbs the mountain or even touches it, they'll die. 

So on the third day, the mountain is covered in smoke with a big fire at the top (fire causes smoke FYI) and a loud voice proclaims the commandments. So Moses goes BACK up the mountain after this and spends 40 days and 40 nights to "receive" the stone tablets, the written Torah AND the Oral Torah.  So one guy was on a mountain, alone, and after 40 days, he returns with two written works and one oral one.  Why would it take God 40 days to give him this stuff?  It would take 10 seconds, max.  It's FAR more likely that it was Moses who did it.  Especially since he came back, broke the stone tablets, and had to go back for 40 days and nights to get new ones.

It would take 40 days at least to write the Written Torah by hand. The Oral Torah would take at LEAST that long to memorise. Then he would have to do it again!

If this were any other religion, you'd call Moses a con man.  But because you were brainwashed into believing this, you can't accept any evidence contrary.

Moses was the original Wizard of Oz.  So put on your big boy pants and accept the truth.  Stop being a child who accepts dragons because your friends say someone saw one.

I would say it's time for you to put on your big-boy pants and admit that 2 million people at one time don't lie and get away with it. Grow up.

"Chapter 19
19:1 In the third month after the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.

19:2 And when they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the wilderness of Sinai, they encamped in the wilderness; and there Israel encamped before the mount.

19:3 And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying: 'Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel:

19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto Myself.

19:5 Now therefore, if ye will hearken unto My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, then ye shall be Mine own treasure from among all peoples; for all the earth is Mine;

19:6 and ye shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.'

19:7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and set before them all these words which the Lord commanded him.

19:8 And all the people answered together, and said: 'All that the Lord hath spoken we will do.' And Moses reported the words of the people unto the Lord. 9 And the Lord said unto Moses: 'Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and may also believe thee for ever.' And Moses told the words of the people unto the Lord.

19:10 And the Lord said unto Moses: 'Go unto the people, and sanctify them to-day and to-morrow, and let them wash their garments,

19:11 and be ready against the third day; for the third day the Lord will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.

Notice: He will come down in the sight of all the people. All 2 million of them.

19:12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying: Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it; whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death;

19:13 no hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live; when the ram's horn soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.'

19:14 And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their garments.

19:15 And he said unto the people: 'Be ready against the third day; come not near a woman.' 16 And it came to pass on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunders and lightnings and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of a horn exceeding loud; and all the people that were in the camp trembled.

Notice: Thunder and lightning and a thick cloud on the mount. This implies nowhere else.

19:17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.

19:18 Now mount Sinai was altogether on smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire; and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.

Notice: the Lord descended in fire on the mountain. What do you want him to do, show up as Derek Jeter?

19:19 And when the voice of the horn waxed louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him by a voice.

Moses speaks, and then God blantantly speaks. Damn!

19:20 And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, to the top of the mount; and the Lord called Moses to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.

19:21 And the Lord said unto Moses: 'Go down, charge the people, lest they break through unto the Lord to gaze, and many of them perish.

19:22 And let the priests also, that come near to the Lord, sanctify themselves, lest the Lord break forth upon them.'

19:23 And Moses said unto the Lord: 'The people cannot come up to mount Sinai; for thou didst charge us, saying: Set bounds about the mount, and sanctify it.'

19:24 And the Lord said unto him: 'Go, get thee down, and thou shalt come up, thou, and Aaron with thee; but let not the priests and the people break through to come up unto the Lord, lest He break forth upon them.'

19:25 So Moses went down unto the people, and told them.

Chapter 20
20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying:

20:2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;

20:5 thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me;

20:6 and showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments.

20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain.

20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work;

20:10 but the seventh day is a sabbath unto the Lord thy God, in it thou shalt not do any manner of work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates;

20:11 for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh day; wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. 12 Honour thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

20:13 Thou shalt not murder.

20:13 Thou shalt not commit adultery.

20:13 Thou shalt not steal.

20:13 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

20:14 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house; thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. 15 And all the people perceived the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the voice of the horn, and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled, and stood afar off.

20:16 And they said unto Moses: 'Speak thou with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die.'

20:17 And Moses said unto the people: 'Fear not; for God is come to prove you, and that His fear may be before you, that ye sin not.'

20:18 And the people stood afar off; but Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.

One assumes that there was no thick darkness elsewhere.

19 And the Lord said unto Moses: Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel: Ye yourselves have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.

20:20 Ye shall not make with Me--gods of silver, or gods of gold, ye shall not make unto you.

20:21 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto Me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt-offerings, and thy peace-offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen; in every place where I cause My name to be mentioned I will come unto thee and bless thee.

20:22 And if thou make Me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stones; for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast profaned it.

20:23 Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto Mine altar, that thy nakedness be not uncovered thereon."

Source: Tanach, Jewish Publication Society. http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/exodus-jps.html

I am astounded at your line of argumentation being so poor. I thought I was actually going to be challenged seriously. Wow. That was seriously weak, friend. When I can give you a kicking that badly in 10 minutes, I am disappointed, really. Better luck next time. If at first you don't succeed...

Of course, you will say that this proves nothing. But, you, like so many, fail to keep the rest of the Torah in context, namely, remembering the people the Lord has stricken down in His wrath. The Wizard of Oz didn't do that, and neither did Moses.  God did that. Try again...
So God is nothing but smoke and loud noise now?
Sorry but I could fake all that with nothing more than time and an assistant.  Using no technology either.

And having to take 40 days to "get" a scroll and two stone tablets seems like a long time for god doesn't it?  He, who can poof such things into your hands in a moment required 40 days and 40 nights and to be alone with one man to do it.  This is what a conman would do.

You also made the assumption that darkness was no where else.  Why would God want darkness instead of light I wonder?

Also, 19:21 clearly states that anyone who looks at The Lord will perish.  So how can you see God and live?  You cant.  So again, no one saw God, they saw smoke, fire (which creates smoke), thunder and lightning.  In fact, one may even think that if Moses knew a storm was coming he timed it perfectly.  And one trumpet and an assistant with a bullhorn would be the Voice of God.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 14, 2014, 12:27:04 AM
So the American Revolution one day will sound like the Exodus. So your point is that one day in the future a completely mundane event will be characterized as supernatural, even though it wasn't. Got it. Can we move on?

No, you missed my point. The American Revolution was not supernatural, nor will it be classed as such. My point is that people will have the same questions as to whether or not it even occurred.

Asking a question about your standard of what is probable is not even an argument. You know that right?

Ah, ok. Whatever that means.

By your comments about atheist countries it appears you do not understand what a citation is. Please try again.

I'm stating facts. One does not need citations when one is stating facts that any person can look up in any decent encyclopedia. Go have look at Wikipedia.

In regards to your comment bout a universe arising from nothing why are you using your opinion about what it seems like the universe should be?  Are you an expert in cosmology?  Here is a source that discusses in part how QM and other natural laws are deterministic.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/quantum-physics-free-will/

So please drop this nonsense that the universe is random. It only appears that way due to a lack of information. Again: universe=non-random=creation need not be an accident in the absence of a prime-mover.

So, you are basing this off one article. IMPRESSIVE! (NOT!) There are so many theories about the universe and how it got to be here that you could power the city of San Diego with them for about 10 years if you kept one person reciting them all, and hooked his mouth up to a generator. I think you are doing rather poorly so far trying to prove your point.

Of course my summation of a PhD philosopher's argument may sound absurd on its face. Maybe you should take the time to listen to what the expert has to say instead of making an argument from personal credulity.

(Sorry for the lack of quotes, on my phone and don't have time to parse it all.)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 14, 2014, 01:01:56 AM

"Chapter 19
19:1 In the third month after the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.

19:2 And when they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the wilderness of Sinai, they encamped in the wilderness; and there Israel encamped before the mount.

19:3 And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying: 'Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel:

19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto Myself.

19:5 Now therefore, if ye will hearken unto My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, then ye shall be Mine own treasure from among all peoples; for all the earth is Mine;

19:6 and ye shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.'

19:7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and set before them all these words which the Lord commanded him.

19:8 And all the people answered together, and said: 'All that the Lord hath spoken we will do.' And Moses reported the words of the people unto the Lord. 9 And the Lord said unto Moses: 'Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and may also believe thee for ever.' And Moses told the words of the people unto the Lord.

19:10 And the Lord said unto Moses: 'Go unto the people, and sanctify them to-day and to-morrow, and let them wash their garments,

19:11 and be ready against the third day; for the third day the Lord will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.

Notice: He will come down in the sight of all the people. All 2 million of them.

19:12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying: Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it; whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death;

19:13 no hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live; when the ram's horn soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.'

19:14 And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their garments.

19:15 And he said unto the people: 'Be ready against the third day; come not near a woman.' 16 And it came to pass on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunders and lightnings and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of a horn exceeding loud; and all the people that were in the camp trembled.

Notice: Thunder and lightning and a thick cloud on the mount. This implies nowhere else.

19:17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.

19:18 Now mount Sinai was altogether on smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire; and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.

Notice: the Lord descended in fire on the mountain. What do you want him to do, show up as Derek Jeter?

19:19 And when the voice of the horn waxed louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him by a voice.

Moses speaks, and then God blantantly speaks. Damn!

19:20 And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, to the top of the mount; and the Lord called Moses to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.

19:21 And the Lord said unto Moses: 'Go down, charge the people, lest they break through unto the Lord to gaze, and many of them perish.

19:22 And let the priests also, that come near to the Lord, sanctify themselves, lest the Lord break forth upon them.'

19:23 And Moses said unto the Lord: 'The people cannot come up to mount Sinai; for thou didst charge us, saying: Set bounds about the mount, and sanctify it.'

19:24 And the Lord said unto him: 'Go, get thee down, and thou shalt come up, thou, and Aaron with thee; but let not the priests and the people break through to come up unto the Lord, lest He break forth upon them.'

19:25 So Moses went down unto the people, and told them.

Chapter 20
20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying:

20:2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;

20:5 thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me;

20:6 and showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments.

20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain.

20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work;

20:10 but the seventh day is a sabbath unto the Lord thy God, in it thou shalt not do any manner of work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates;

20:11 for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh day; wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. 12 Honour thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

20:13 Thou shalt not murder.

20:13 Thou shalt not commit adultery.

20:13 Thou shalt not steal.

20:13 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

20:14 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house; thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. 15 And all the people perceived the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the voice of the horn, and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled, and stood afar off.

20:16 And they said unto Moses: 'Speak thou with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die.'

20:17 And Moses said unto the people: 'Fear not; for God is come to prove you, and that His fear may be before you, that ye sin not.'

20:18 And the people stood afar off; but Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.

One assumes that there was no thick darkness elsewhere.

19 And the Lord said unto Moses: Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel: Ye yourselves have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.

20:20 Ye shall not make with Me--gods of silver, or gods of gold, ye shall not make unto you.

20:21 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto Me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt-offerings, and thy peace-offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen; in every place where I cause My name to be mentioned I will come unto thee and bless thee.

20:22 And if thou make Me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stones; for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast profaned it.

20:23 Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto Mine altar, that thy nakedness be not uncovered thereon."

Source: Tanach, Jewish Publication Society. http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/exodus-jps.html

I am astounded at your line of argumentation being so poor. I thought I was actually going to be challenged seriously. Wow. That was seriously weak, friend. When I can give you a kicking that badly in 10 minutes, I am disappointed, really. Better luck next time. If at first you don't succeed...

Of course, you will say that this proves nothing. But, you, like so many, fail to keep the rest of the Torah in context, namely, remembering the people the Lord has stricken down in His wrath. The Wizard of Oz didn't do that, and neither did Moses.  God did that. Try again...
So God is nothing but smoke and loud noise now?
Sorry but I could fake all that with nothing more than time and an assistant.  Using no technology either.

It would be rather difficult with the Bronze Age technology (or rather, the lack thereof) to fake thunders and lightnings and a thick cloud upon the mount. One can imagine that it was not a small amount. In fact, Torah states that the smoke ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. Moses would have had a hard time pulling that off 4500 years ago.

And having to take 40 days to "get" a scroll and two stone tablets seems like a long time for god doesn't it?  He, who can poof such things into your hands in a moment required 40 days and 40 nights and to be alone with one man to do it.  This is what a conman would do.

Since Moses had to write it out longhand, it would take about 40 days. Memorising the entire Oral Torah would take at LEAST that long!

You also made the assumption that darkness was no where else.  Why would God want darkness instead of light I wonder?

Why wouldn't he? How is that in the slightest a relevant question?

Also, 19:21 clearly states that anyone who looks at The Lord will perish.  So how can you see God and live?  You cant.  So again, no one saw God, they saw smoke, fire (which creates smoke), thunder and lightning.  In fact, one may even think that if Moses knew a storm was coming he timed it perfectly.  And one trumpet and an assistant with a bullhorn would be the Voice of God.

Trumpets didn't exist. Shofarim did. I hear them blast every year in the Synagogue. It would be hard to fool anyone with one of those. They are not loud enough.  Bullhorns also did not exist.

You continue to do a PISS POOR job of defending your argument. Keep trying, friend...


PLEASE NOTE: Words like "horn" or "trumpet" are usually how the word in Hebrew, "shofar", ends up being translated. A shofar is the horn of a ram that is made into a trumpet that is used today for religious purposes, and at one time was used also for military purposes. However, calling it a trumpet is a bit misleading, as it doesn't have the volume of a trumpet, and couldn't be used in fakery for 2 million persons.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 14, 2014, 01:44:54 AM
So the American Revolution one day will sound like the Exodus. So your point is that one day in the future a completely mundane event will be characterized as supernatural, even though it wasn't. Got it. Can we move on?

Asking a question about your standard of what is probable is not even an argument. You know that right?

By your comments about atheist countries it appears you do not understand what a citation is. Please try again.

In regards to your comment bout a universe arising from nothing why are you using your opinion about what it seems like the universe should be?  Are you an expert in cosmology?  Here is a source that discusses in part how QM and other natural laws are deterministic.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/quantum-physics-free-will/

So please drop this nonsense that the universe is random. It only appears that way due to a lack of information. Again: universe=non-random=creation need not be an accident in the absence of a prime-mover.

Of course my summation of a PhD philosopher's argument may sound absurd on its face. Maybe you should take the time to listen to what the expert has to say instead of making an argument from personal credulity.

(Sorry for the lack of quotes, on my phone and don't have time to parse it all.)
In all fairness, some people already do revere the founding fathers like Gods.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 14, 2014, 01:48:25 AM
VINDICTUS! You brilliant son-of-a-bitch! That is the first correct thing I've ever heard you say! Damn, brother, I'm impressed. I mean that, I'm not just being nasty or snide. Good one on you.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 14, 2014, 02:19:41 AM
In other news, Sweden recently recognized Palestine as a state and the UK is voting on the issue soon, with very high chances that the motion will pass.

Edit: Looks like I'm a bit late, actually. They've already voted and recognized Palestine as a state. Nevermind, it was a symbolic vote, whatever the hell that is.

Additionally I just learned that 80% of the world recognizes Palestine as a state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_the_State_of_Palestine


Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 14, 2014, 03:01:33 AM
So the American Revolution one day will sound like the Exodus. So your point is that one day in the future a completely mundane event will be characterized as supernatural, even though it wasn't. Got it. Can we move on?

No, you missed my point. The American Revolution was not supernatural, nor will it be classed as such. My point is that people will have the same questions as to whether or not it even occurred.
Unlikely considering the plethora of primary sources for the American Revolution and the Dearth for the Exodus. As an aside I thought you were suspicious of the number of Jews in the Exodus being in the millions.

Quote
Asking a question about your standard of what is probable is not even an argument. You know that right?

Ah, ok. Whatever that means.

Good talk.

Quote
By your comments about atheist countries it appears you do not understand what a citation is. Please try again.

I'm stating facts. One does not need citations when one is stating facts that any person can look up in any decent encyclopedia. Go have look at Wikipedia.

Ah ok. Let's keep your statement in mind later.

Quote
In regards to your comment bout a universe arising from nothing why are you using your opinion about what it seems like the universe should be?  Are you an expert in cosmology?  Here is a source that discusses in part how QM and other natural laws are deterministic.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/quantum-physics-free-will/

So please drop this nonsense that the universe is random. It only appears that way due to a lack of information. Again: universe=non-random=creation need not be an accident in the absence of a prime-mover.

So, you are basing this off one article. IMPRESSIVE! (NOT!) There are so many theories about the universe and how it got to be here that you could power the city of San Diego with them for about 10 years if you kept one person reciting them all, and hooked his mouth up to a generator. I think you are doing rather poorly so far trying to prove your point.

Of course my summation of a PhD philosopher's argument may sound absurd on its face. Maybe you should take the time to listen to what the expert has to say instead of making an argument from personal credulity.

No I listed one source of many. If you wish to learn more and cease sitting there being spoon fed you can heed your own advice regarding factual information spouted above and do your own research. Don't go to Wikipedia though.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 14, 2014, 03:12:05 AM
So, 80% of the world (which means the UN, which we've already established is useless, and should be abolished as a threat to world peace) recognises "Palestine". So what? And a recent survey of 190 countries shows that 26% of the world's adults still harbour anti-Semitic attitudes. We all know that Israel has always been treated as the "Jew among nations", just as Jews have been treated as the Jews have always been.

The UN "Human Rights Council" is a case in point. Such luminaries as China, Cuba, Syria, and Saudi Arabia have been on it. Such fine examples for the world to follow! What brave proud nations to look up to!

The "Palestinians" will never have a nation, not because Israel doesn't want them to. In fact, most Israelis DON'T agree with me. The majority would love for them to have a state of their own. They will never have one because they are stupid. Every time Israel makes them an offer, they refuse, and launch rockets instead, 2001 and 2005 being just 2 examples. Eventually, Israel will get sick of catering to public opinion in the world and will deal with the "Palestinians" the way they deserve to be dealt with, and that will be the end of the problem. Either that or the Messiah will come and resolve matters for us.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 14, 2014, 03:16:54 AM
So the American Revolution one day will sound like the Exodus. So your point is that one day in the future a completely mundane event will be characterized as supernatural, even though it wasn't. Got it. Can we move on?

No, you missed my point. The American Revolution was not supernatural, nor will it be classed as such. My point is that people will have the same questions as to whether or not it even occurred.
Unlikely considering the plethora of primary sources for the American Revolution and the Dearth for the Exodus. As an aside I thought you were suspicious of the number of Jews in the Exodus being in the millions.

I am not prepared to answer the question about the size of the Exodus at present time. I have heard so many arguments about it being 2 million or less than that that I don't have an answer. I am using that number as a point of reference. For future purposes, please understand that when I say "two million", that stands for an undetermined number, and that I use it because that is what the Torah states. I am doing more research on that subject now. If I come to a conclusion regarding it, I shall let you all know what it is.

Quote
Asking a question about your standard of what is probable is not even an argument. You know that right?

Ah, ok. Whatever that means.

Good talk.

Quote
By your comments about atheist countries it appears you do not understand what a citation is. Please try again.

I'm stating facts. One does not need citations when one is stating facts that any person can look up in any decent encyclopedia. Go have look at Wikipedia.

Ah ok. Let's keep your statement in mind later.

Quote
In regards to your comment bout a universe arising from nothing why are you using your opinion about what it seems like the universe should be?  Are you an expert in cosmology?  Here is a source that discusses in part how QM and other natural laws are deterministic.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/quantum-physics-free-will/

So please drop this nonsense that the universe is random. It only appears that way due to a lack of information. Again: universe=non-random=creation need not be an accident in the absence of a prime-mover.

So, you are basing this off one article. IMPRESSIVE! (NOT!) There are so many theories about the universe and how it got to be here that you could power the city of San Diego with them for about 10 years if you kept one person reciting them all, and hooked his mouth up to a generator. I think you are doing rather poorly so far trying to prove your point.

Of course my summation of a PhD philosopher's argument may sound absurd on its face. Maybe you should take the time to listen to what the expert has to say instead of making an argument from personal credulity.

No I listed one source of many. If you wish to learn more and cease sitting there being spoon fed you can heed your own advice regarding factual information spouted above and do your own research. Don't go to Wikipedia though.

I'll have a look-see at that article from your magazine that you posted later.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.trumpets
Post by: Lord Dave on October 14, 2014, 03:24:45 AM
Trumpets totally did exist. 

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_primitive_and_non-Western_trumpets

And could easily amplify human voices.  They'd be distorted but God doesn't have to speak with crystal clarity when Moses told everyone what he said anyway.

Also, thank you for admitting Moses wrote the Torah himself.  Sole source of all your culture right there.
And if it took him 40 days to write the Torah, memorize the oral Torah, AND make 2 stone tablets, why did it take him an equal time to just make two stone tablets?

And if God came to this mountain then it should still have evidence of his presence.  So where is the mountain?

Sorry but Moses had this stuff down long before "God" descended on a mountain on fire.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 14, 2014, 03:32:14 AM
Trumpets totally did exist. 

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_primitive_and_non-Western_trumpets

And could easily amplify human voices.  They'd be distorted but God doesn't have to speak with crystal clarity when Moses told everyone what he said anyway.

I stand corrected on the point regarding trumpets. However, you couldn't imitate the voice of God such that 2 million people could all hear it. That would be hard to do even today, let alone then.

Also, thank you for admitting Moses wrote the Torah himself.  Sole source of all your culture right there.
And if it took him 40 days to write the Torah, memorize the oral Torah, AND make 2 stone tablets, why did it take him an equal time to just make two stone tablets?

Ah, no, HE did not write the Torah. He wrote what God dictated him to write. You really are trying to be obtuse. As to why he spent another 40 days up there the second time, I am guessing God decided to reveal more Oral Torah to him while he was there. I don't know, and ultimately, don't care.

And if God came to this mountain then it should still have evidence of his presence.  So where is the mountain?

And why would it have evidence of God's presence? What would possibly lead you to that conclusion?

Sorry but Moses had this stuff down long before "God" descended on a mountain on fire.


Again, still doing a terrible job. But do keep trying. Its entertaining me.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 14, 2014, 01:06:22 PM
Trumpets totally did exist. 

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_primitive_and_non-Western_trumpets

And could easily amplify human voices.  They'd be distorted but God doesn't have to speak with crystal clarity when Moses told everyone what he said anyway.
I stand corrected on the point regarding trumpets. However, you couldn't imitate the voice of God such that 2 million people could all hear it. That would be hard to do even today, let alone then.
1. Yeah you can.  It's on a mountain. 
2. 2 million is a lot for Moses to talk to isn't it?  How did he do it?  19:25 clearly states that Moses told everyone.  How did he tell all 2 million people?
3. 20:16 clearly states that the people didn't want god to speak to them or they'd die.  So where does it say everyone heard God? 

Quote
And they said unto Moses:'Speak thou with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die.'
Did all 2 million speak?  Because that's really loud.  I mean, so loud that nothing Moses would say could get to anyone.  Do you know how loud 2 million people are?  Obama had almost as many people at his first inauguration.  If you have 2 million people scared of a mountain, you are not getting a word in.

Quote
Quote
Also, thank you for admitting Moses wrote the Torah himself.  Sole source of all your culture right there.
And if it took him 40 days to write the Torah, memorize the oral Torah, AND make 2 stone tablets, why did it take him an equal time to just make two stone tablets?
Ah, no, HE did not write the Torah. He wrote what God dictated him to write. You really are trying to be obtuse. As to why he spent another 40 days up there the second time, I am guessing God decided to reveal more Oral Torah to him while he was there. I don't know, and ultimately, don't care.
He wrote what god dictated and who said that?  Oh right, Moses.  So Moses said that God said it all.  Gotcha.  If God Changed his mind, that doesn't make a good case.  What if Moses didn't drop the stone tablets?  Would you have less Oral Torah?
And ultimately not caring is why this is so frustrating.  When you're confronted with something you can't explain, you choose apathy.  This is classic brainwashing.  You literally can't care about mistakes that make you question something.  At this point God could come down to you by making your house on fire (but not burn) and tell you you're wrong and you'd still dismiss it as a lie.

Quote
Quote
And if God came to this mountain then it should still have evidence of his presence.  So where is the mountain?

And why would it have evidence of God's presence? What would possibly lead you to that conclusion?
So shaking mountains and burning rocks don't leave evidence?  He's GOD!  His divine presence is so powerful looking at him kills people.  You think he can descend on a mountain in fire and not scorch a few rocks?

Quote
Quote
Sorry but Moses had this stuff down long before "God" descended on a mountain on fire.


Again, still doing a terrible job. But do keep trying. Its entertaining me.
Oh I'm doing a great job, you're just brainwashed.  Your world is so rigid that not even God himself could change your "facts".  You are the worst kind of human.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 14, 2014, 01:43:38 PM
Trumpets totally did exist. 

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_primitive_and_non-Western_trumpets

And could easily amplify human voices.  They'd be distorted but God doesn't have to speak with crystal clarity when Moses told everyone what he said anyway.
I stand corrected on the point regarding trumpets. However, you couldn't imitate the voice of God such that 2 million people could all hear it. That would be hard to do even today, let alone then.
1. Yeah you can.  It's on a mountain. 
2. 2 million is a lot for Moses to talk to isn't it?  How did he do it?  19:25 clearly states that Moses told everyone.  How did he tell all 2 million people?

I am assuming through messengers. I don't know, and don't care much about the mechanics of it.

3. 20:16 clearly states that the people didn't want god to speak to them or they'd die.  So where does it say everyone heard God?

Ah, God is God. He can do that. Even you acknowledged in reply #902, p. 46 that "They HEARD a voice". So make up your sorry excuse for a mind.

Ex. 19:8-9 "And all the people answered together, and said: 'All that the Lord hath spoken we will do.' And Moses reported the words of the people unto the Lord. 9 And the Lord said unto Moses: 'Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and may also believe thee for ever.' And Moses told the words of the people unto the Lord."
 

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And they said unto Moses:'Speak thou with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die.'
Did all 2 million speak?  Because that's really loud.  I mean, so loud that nothing Moses would say could get to anyone.  Do you know how loud 2 million people are?  Obama had almost as many people at his first inauguration.  If you have 2 million people scared of a mountain, you are not getting a word in.

I'm assuming again, likewise through messengers. Again, I don't know for certain, and I'm not too preoccupied with the matter.

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Also, thank you for admitting Moses wrote the Torah himself.  Sole source of all your culture right there.
And if it took him 40 days to write the Torah, memorize the oral Torah, AND make 2 stone tablets, why did it take him an equal time to just make two stone tablets?
Ah, no, HE did not write the Torah. He wrote what God dictated him to write. You really are trying to be obtuse. As to why he spent another 40 days up there the second time, I am guessing God decided to reveal more Oral Torah to him while he was there. I don't know, and ultimately, don't care.
He wrote what god dictated and who said that?  Oh right, Moses.  So Moses said that God said it all.  Gotcha.  If God Changed his mind, that doesn't make a good case.  What if Moses didn't drop the stone tablets?  Would you have less Oral Torah?
And ultimately not caring is why this is so frustrating.  When you're confronted with something you can't explain, you choose apathy.  This is classic brainwashing.  You literally can't care about mistakes that make you question something.  At this point God could come down to you by making your house on fire (but not burn) and tell you you're wrong and you'd still dismiss it as a lie.

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Methinks the Lady doth protest too much. It is not too hard hard to consider the strong possibility that Moses wrote the Torah on a scroll the first 40 days, and received the Oral Torah during the second 40 days. I am assuming that God wanted to use the time wisely. I am also assuming that had Moses NOT broken the Tables of the Law, God would have called him back up the Mount anyway. The point is, the Torah doesn't tell us what God might have done. It tells us only what he did. Quit whining.

And if God came to this mountain then it should still have evidence of his presence.  So where is the mountain?

And why would it have evidence of God's presence? What would possibly lead you to that conclusion?

So shaking mountains and burning rocks don't leave evidence?  He's GOD!  His divine presence is so powerful looking at him kills people.  You think he can descend on a mountain in fire and not scorch a few rocks?

Observe a fire on a mountain, and then go back several years later and observe the same mountain. Although you will find evidence, it will NOT be easy to find, except perhaps in the rocks. You WILL have to search for it. My father was a firefighter, and knew that much, and that was just in the life of one man. Now imagine the time being stretched to 4500 years. There might be evidence, but it wouldn't be readily observable without A LOT of research on said mountain. And that is only if God decides to LEAVE evidence. What if he chooses not to?

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Sorry but Moses had this stuff down long before "God" descended on a mountain on fire.


Again, still doing a terrible job. But do keep trying. Its entertaining me.
Oh I'm doing a great job, you're just brainwashed.  Your world is so rigid that not even God himself could change your "facts".  You are the worst kind of human.

Ooh, we are getting good at the insults now. Well, keep trying. I'm having fun. This is entertaining to watch you make a fool of yourself every time you open your yap. I would generally encourage you to close it, but in your case, I'll let you continue, so that I may laugh harder. Carry on, my good man, carry on...
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Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 14, 2014, 02:35:09 PM
So if I'm understanding you right, you don't care about specifics just the general idea.

I guess that's required then isn't it?  I mean, if you look too hard you'll see flaws so the best solution is to not look very hard at all.

And by not caring, you acknowledge my argument as being valid.  (you did the same to spanner) so thanks for that.  I'm happy to know that your "facts" have as much basis in reality as Unicorns.

I'm actually debating if I should keep going or not.  On one hand, I find it fun to constantly poke holes in all of your points and "facts", resulting in you having to say "I don't know and don't care".  On the other hand, it's not fun trying to argue with someone who has no free will on the subject.  It's like arguing with a book really.  No matter how wrong the book is, it'll never change it's text.  As I said, God himself could not change your mind.  Which you have ignored so I assume you agree.  (Would that be irony?)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spanner34.5 on October 14, 2014, 02:46:05 PM
So if I'm understanding you right, you don't care about specifics just the general idea.

I guess that's required then isn't it?  I mean, if you look too hard you'll see flaws so the best solution is to not look very hard at all.

And by not caring, you acknowledge my argument as being valid.  (you did the same to spanner) so thanks for that.  I'm happy to know that your "facts" have as much basis in reality as Unicorns.

I'm actually debating if I should keep going or not.  On one hand, I find it fun to constantly poke holes in all of your points and "facts", resulting in you having to say "I don't know and don't care".  On the other hand, it's not fun trying to argue with someone who has no free will on the subject.  It's like arguing with a book really.  No matter how wrong the book is, it'll never change it's text.  As I said, God himself could not change your mind.  Which you have ignored so I assume you agree.  (Would that be irony?)
I suggest you let the child molesting bigot rant away by himself. Ignore the twat.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 14, 2014, 03:18:41 PM
So if I'm understanding you right, you don't care about specifics just the general idea.

I guess that's required then isn't it?  I mean, if you look too hard you'll see flaws so the best solution is to not look very hard at all.

I think you are failing to see that Exodus is written no differently than any other report of an event. When you read about a baseball game between the Padres and the Dodgers, you don't expect the author of the report to tell you what would have happened if so-and-so had not struck out. You only want what did happen. You seem to want to what would have happened. Nobody is allowed that knowledge.

And by not caring, you acknowledge my argument as being valid.  (you did the same to spanner) so thanks for that.  I'm happy to know that your "facts" have as much basis in reality as Unicorns.

No, I am not acknowledging your argument as valid. I am acknowledging that you have no argument at all. Basically, I am acknowledging that you are an idiot.

I'm actually debating if I should keep going or not.  On one hand, I find it fun to constantly poke holes in all of your points and "facts", resulting in you having to say "I don't know and don't care".

If someone asks me what WOULD have happened if Derek Jeter HAD caught a certain ball, my answer will be, "I don't know and I don't care". That doesn't mean the ball game never took place. So, yeeeeeeaaaah-no.  Your haven't poked a hole in anything other than your own head.

 On the other hand, it's not fun trying to argue with someone who has no free will on the subject.  It's like arguing with a book really.  No matter how wrong the book is, it'll never change it's text.  As I said, God himself could not change your mind.  Which you have ignored so I assume you agree.  (Would that be irony?)

Why would I bother to respond to such a remarkably stupid statement?


I suggest you let the child molesting bigot rant away by himself. Ignore the twat.

Ooh, do I feel insulted by someone that can't do anything more than indicate his lack of vocabulary. My, now I am accused of being a child molester. Well, since such a statement is simply fucktarded, and indicates utmost stupidity on your part, and a failure to be able to present a cogent argument to anything I've said, I'll just take it as a sign that you're a complete moron incapable of anything else.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: jroa on October 14, 2014, 03:23:20 PM
Well, your people do cut off babys' penises. 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 14, 2014, 03:29:36 PM
Well, your people do cut off babys' penises.

As do plenty of American non-Jews for sanitary reasons. We've been over this. Now you are reaching a point of being stupid.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 14, 2014, 03:30:46 PM
Considering you can't quote correctly, I'm having trouble seeing your "intelligence".

I'm not talking about what ifs but so much as unexplained time.  If it takes 30 minutes to fetch a new bat then the hitter realizes he needs a new one and it takes another 30 minutes to get it, that makes one ask why it took so along. 

Now God is all powerful and makes land masses in a day.  A stone tablet should be no problem yet it takes 40 times as long.

And you don't watch baseball much.  They talk about what could have happened all the time. 

Also, if I heard a game where the batter hit the ball into the lights then the next thing they said was that he was out, I'd want to know how that happened. 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: jroa on October 14, 2014, 03:33:31 PM
Well, your people do cut off babys' penises.

As do plenty of American non-Jews for sanitary reasons. We've been over this. Now you are reaching a point of being stupid.

That is because all the doctors are Jews. 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 14, 2014, 03:36:38 PM
Considering you can't quote correctly, I'm having trouble seeing your "intelligence".

I'm not talking about what ifs but so much as unexplained time.  If it takes 30 minutes to fetch a new bat then the hitter realizes he needs a new one and it takes another 30 minutes to get it, that makes one ask why it took so along. 

God, you do try to be dense. Moses didn't just go up for tablets. He went up and wrote the entire text of the Torah and got the Oral Torah. That would take at least 80 days, schmuck.

Now God is all powerful and makes land masses in a day.  A stone tablet should be no problem yet it takes 40 times as long.

And you don't watch baseball much.  They talk about what could have happened all the time.

Not in the newspaper report they don't. They might in casual conversation, or in game analysis, but in the basic report of what occurred, or on the nightly news, they don't.

Also, if I heard a game where the batter hit the ball into the lights then the next thing they said was that he was out, I'd want to know how that happened.

Your point?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: jroa on October 14, 2014, 03:38:16 PM
Hello, EJ
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 14, 2014, 05:52:23 PM
Considering you can't quote correctly, I'm having trouble seeing your "intelligence".

I'm not talking about what ifs but so much as unexplained time.  If it takes 30 minutes to fetch a new bat then the hitter realizes he needs a new one and it takes another 30 minutes to get it, that makes one ask why it took so along. 
God, you do try to be dense. Moses didn't just go up for tablets. He went up and wrote the entire text of the Torah and got the Oral Torah. That would take at least 80 days, schmuck.
1. How do you know how long such a task would take?
2. Correct me if I'm wrong but isnt' the Torah a collection of many "chapters" (for lack of a better word) such as:
Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbersm, and Deuteronomy.
And didn't Numbersm, and Deuteronomy get written AFTER Exodus? (ie. after Moses went to see God on the mountain)  I find it very curious that God gave Moses the creation story, a history he already knew (including his own), a chapter on laws and rituals, and 2 Chapters worth of the future.
3. If it would take 80 days to write all that, why did he come down after only 40?  WITH the Oral and Written Torah?  You have agreed that he did so at best it would take him only 40 days for both.  But let's go with some math shall we?

The Written Torah consists of 79,847 words. (I'm assuming he wrote even the stuff that didn't happen yet)
Average human hand-writing is 20 words per minute for copying.   This gives us 3992.35 minutes to copy it down.  Which is 66.5 hours. That's not exactly 40 days and 40 nights.  He'd have to be writing at around 2 words a minute and working for 12 hours a day to get around 40 days.  Both times.  And why would he write it down?  Why not let God poof him a scroll?  He'd be done in seconds rather than 2.5 months.

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Now God is all powerful and makes land masses in a day.  A stone tablet should be no problem yet it takes 40 times as long.

And you don't watch baseball much.  They talk about what could have happened all the time.

Not in the newspaper report they don't. They might in casual conversation, or in game analysis, but in the basic report of what occurred, or on the nightly news, they don't.
So the holy word of God is nothing more than a newspaper article or the nightly news?  Man, God has serious detail issues.

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Also, if I heard a game where the batter hit the ball into the lights then the next thing they said was that he was out, I'd want to know how that happened.
Your point?
That you need to ask questions when things don't make logical sense.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on October 14, 2014, 05:53:06 PM
The Bible is equivalent to a 500 word sports editorial?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 14, 2014, 06:31:26 PM
The Bible is equivalent to a 500 word sports editorial?
No, God.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 14, 2014, 06:38:43 PM
Considering you can't quote correctly, I'm having trouble seeing your "intelligence".

I'm not talking about what ifs but so much as unexplained time.  If it takes 30 minutes to fetch a new bat then the hitter realizes he needs a new one and it takes another 30 minutes to get it, that makes one ask why it took so along. 
God, you do try to be dense. Moses didn't just go up for tablets. He went up and wrote the entire text of the Torah and got the Oral Torah. That would take at least 80 days, schmuck.
1. How do you know how long such a task would take?
2. Correct me if I'm wrong but isnt' the Torah a collection of many "chapters" (for lack of a better word) such as:
Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbersm, and Deuteronomy.
And didn't Numbersm, and Deuteronomy get written AFTER Exodus? (ie. after Moses went to see God on the mountain)  I find it very curious that God gave Moses the creation story, a history he already knew (including his own), a chapter on laws and rituals, and 2 Chapters worth of the future.
3. If it would take 80 days to write all that, why did he come down after only 40?  WITH the Oral and Written Torah?  You have agreed that he did so at best it would take him only 40 days for both.  But let's go with some math shall we?

The Written Torah consists of 79,847 words. (I'm assuming he wrote even the stuff that didn't happen yet)
Average human hand-writing is 20 words per minute for copying.   This gives us 3992.35 minutes to copy it down.  Which is 66.5 hours. That's not exactly 40 days and 40 nights.  He'd have to be writing at around 2 words a minute and working for 12 hours a day to get around 40 days.  Both times.  And why would he write it down?  Why not let God poof him a scroll?  He'd be done in seconds rather than 2.5 months.

Again, you're demonstrating your own stupidity. You are good at that, aren't you? I expect that as he was writing Torah, he probably had a shit-ton of questions that God had to patiently answer. When God gave him laws for the Jewish People, he probably wanted to know why they were given, so he could explain. Those questions, and their answers, would form part of the Oral Torah, but they would take a long time to answer. He would need the first 40 days, and likewise another 40. As I indicated, I am guessing that God was going to call him back up the Mount even if he HADN'T broken the first tablets. The fact that he did I suspect is just a side-note insofar as he needed them again.

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Now God is all powerful and makes land masses in a day.  A stone tablet should be no problem yet it takes 40 times as long.

And you don't watch baseball much.  They talk about what could have happened all the time.

Not in the newspaper report they don't. They might in casual conversation, or in game analysis, but in the basic report of what occurred, or on the nightly news, they don't.
So the holy word of God is nothing more than a newspaper article or the nightly news?  Man, God has serious detail issues.

Stupid response not worthy of reply.

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Also, if I heard a game where the batter hit the ball into the lights then the next thing they said was that he was out, I'd want to know how that happened.
Your point?
That you need to ask questions when things don't make logical sense.

It does make logical sense if you have an IQ above single digits.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 14, 2014, 06:43:53 PM
The Bible is equivalent to a 500 word sports editorial?

Ah, whatever.
No, God.

Ah, extra-whatever.

Well, its too bad this debate hasn't been moderated by say, a Hindu. But, then, someone brainwashed by the likes of Richard Dawkins is unlikely to change their pea-brain excuse for a mind even God reveals himself personally to that individual. So, knowing that, its fairly easy just to chuckle at the overall stupidity of the individual. But I must admit, Dave, you take it to an extreme I have never seen before. You take the taco for dense, buddy. Your yap is getting you into more trouble... but do keep opening it if you like... feel free...
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 14, 2014, 07:02:38 PM
Considering you can't quote correctly, I'm having trouble seeing your "intelligence".

I'm not talking about what ifs but so much as unexplained time.  If it takes 30 minutes to fetch a new bat then the hitter realizes he needs a new one and it takes another 30 minutes to get it, that makes one ask why it took so along. 
God, you do try to be dense. Moses didn't just go up for tablets. He went up and wrote the entire text of the Torah and got the Oral Torah. That would take at least 80 days, schmuck.
1. How do you know how long such a task would take?
2. Correct me if I'm wrong but isnt' the Torah a collection of many "chapters" (for lack of a better word) such as:
Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbersm, and Deuteronomy.
And didn't Numbersm, and Deuteronomy get written AFTER Exodus? (ie. after Moses went to see God on the mountain)  I find it very curious that God gave Moses the creation story, a history he already knew (including his own), a chapter on laws and rituals, and 2 Chapters worth of the future.
3. If it would take 80 days to write all that, why did he come down after only 40?  WITH the Oral and Written Torah?  You have agreed that he did so at best it would take him only 40 days for both.  But let's go with some math shall we?

The Written Torah consists of 79,847 words. (I'm assuming he wrote even the stuff that didn't happen yet)
Average human hand-writing is 20 words per minute for copying.   This gives us 3992.35 minutes to copy it down.  Which is 66.5 hours. That's not exactly 40 days and 40 nights.  He'd have to be writing at around 2 words a minute and working for 12 hours a day to get around 40 days.  Both times.  And why would he write it down?  Why not let God poof him a scroll?  He'd be done in seconds rather than 2.5 months.
Again, you're demonstrating your own stupidity. You are good at that, aren't you? I expect that as he was writing Torah, he probably had a shit-ton of questions that God had to patiently answer. When God gave him laws for the Jewish People, he probably wanted to know why they were given, so he could explain. Those questions, and their answers, would form part of the Oral Torah, but they would take a long time to answer. He would need the first 40 days, and likewise another 40. As I indicated, I am guessing that God was going to call him back up the Mount even if he HADN'T broken the first tablets. The fact that he did I suspect is just a side-note insofar as he needed them again.
So you don't know.  You create facts based on assumption.  You have nothing and you call me dumb?  You can't even answer a simple question. 

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Now God is all powerful and makes land masses in a day.  A stone tablet should be no problem yet it takes 40 times as long.

And you don't watch baseball much.  They talk about what could have happened all the time.

Not in the newspaper report they don't. They might in casual conversation, or in game analysis, but in the basic report of what occurred, or on the nightly news, they don't.
So the holy word of God is nothing more than a newspaper article or the nightly news?  Man, God has serious detail issues.

Stupid response not worthy of reply.
So you have no argument against my statement.  Gotcha.  Thanks for proving my point. :)

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Also, if I heard a game where the batter hit the ball into the lights then the next thing they said was that he was out, I'd want to know how that happened.
Your point?
That you need to ask questions when things don't make logical sense.
It does make logical sense if you have an IQ above single digits.

You have yet to show any proof of logic.  All you've thrown out are logical fallacies.  And since the only argument you really seem to have these days is Ad hominim, then it seems to me you really have no answers.  All you have in your limited mind is a book that you have decided must be factual and contain no errors or inconsistencies.

I pray that if you have children, they do not suffer the same fate. :(
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 14, 2014, 07:15:54 PM
Considering you can't quote correctly, I'm having trouble seeing your "intelligence".

I'm not talking about what ifs but so much as unexplained time.  If it takes 30 minutes to fetch a new bat then the hitter realizes he needs a new one and it takes another 30 minutes to get it, that makes one ask why it took so along. 
God, you do try to be dense. Moses didn't just go up for tablets. He went up and wrote the entire text of the Torah and got the Oral Torah. That would take at least 80 days, schmuck.
1. How do you know how long such a task would take?
2. Correct me if I'm wrong but isnt' the Torah a collection of many "chapters" (for lack of a better word) such as:
Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbersm, and Deuteronomy.
And didn't Numbersm, and Deuteronomy get written AFTER Exodus? (ie. after Moses went to see God on the mountain)  I find it very curious that God gave Moses the creation story, a history he already knew (including his own), a chapter on laws and rituals, and 2 Chapters worth of the future.
3. If it would take 80 days to write all that, why did he come down after only 40?  WITH the Oral and Written Torah?  You have agreed that he did so at best it would take him only 40 days for both.  But let's go with some math shall we?

The Written Torah consists of 79,847 words. (I'm assuming he wrote even the stuff that didn't happen yet)
Average human hand-writing is 20 words per minute for copying.   This gives us 3992.35 minutes to copy it down.  Which is 66.5 hours. That's not exactly 40 days and 40 nights.  He'd have to be writing at around 2 words a minute and working for 12 hours a day to get around 40 days.  Both times.  And why would he write it down?  Why not let God poof him a scroll?  He'd be done in seconds rather than 2.5 months.
Again, you're demonstrating your own stupidity. You are good at that, aren't you? I expect that as he was writing Torah, he probably had a shit-ton of questions that God had to patiently answer. When God gave him laws for the Jewish People, he probably wanted to know why they were given, so he could explain. Those questions, and their answers, would form part of the Oral Torah, but they would take a long time to answer. He would need the first 40 days, and likewise another 40. As I indicated, I am guessing that God was going to call him back up the Mount even if he HADN'T broken the first tablets. The fact that he did I suspect is just a side-note insofar as he needed them again.
So you don't know.  You create facts based on assumption.  You have nothing and you call me dumb?  You can't even answer a simple question. 

Lets see. God wants to give you laws for an entire nation of people. He expects you then to enforce those laws after writing them down. You aren't going to have ANY questions for him? NONE? Seriously?! How ludicrous can you get?!

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Now God is all powerful and makes land masses in a day.  A stone tablet should be no problem yet it takes 40 times as long.

And you don't watch baseball much.  They talk about what could have happened all the time.

Not in the newspaper report they don't. They might in casual conversation, or in game analysis, but in the basic report of what occurred, or on the nightly news, they don't.
So the holy word of God is nothing more than a newspaper article or the nightly news?  Man, God has serious detail issues.

Stupid response not worthy of reply.
So you have no argument against my statement.  Gotcha.  Thanks for proving my point. :)

Your statement was essentially a non-statement which added nothing to the argument. Therefore, you made no point. Therefore, I proved no point of yours, except perhaps the one on top of your head. :) You're welcome.

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Also, if I heard a game where the batter hit the ball into the lights then the next thing they said was that he was out, I'd want to know how that happened.
Your point?
That you need to ask questions when things don't make logical sense.
It does make logical sense if you have an IQ above single digits.

You have yet to show any proof of logic.  All you've thrown out are logical fallacies.  And since the only argument you really seem to have these days is Ad hominim, then it seems to me you really have no answers.  All you have in your limited mind is a book that you have decided must be factual and contain no errors or inconsistencies.

Since you have presented no arguments worth arguing against, all I can do is politely inform you that you lack overall intelligence. It is not an ad hominem to inform someone that they are stupid when in fact, that statement is true. I'm not trying to prove an argument by doing that. I'm trying to help you by pointing out that you probably need special education or therapy.You have made no argument to argue against. If you had, I would be arguing against it without telling you that you were stupid, even though you are. But when someone does not MAKE an argument, it is hard to argue with that person.

I pray that if you have children, they do not suffer the same fate. :(


The last statement was simply an abusive non-sequitur and proves you to be an unpleasant alter kacker in addition to being of limited intelligence.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: EnigmaZV on October 14, 2014, 07:31:32 PM
Lets see. God wants to give you laws for an entire nation of people. He expects you then to enforce those laws after writing them down. You aren't going to have ANY questions for him? NONE? Seriously?! How ludicrous can you get?

I suppose it would depend on how good God would be at communicating his expectations. If he did a poor job of it, I would probably have questions.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 14, 2014, 07:36:03 PM
Well, how about the following: Don't eat any animal that doesn't chew the cud and doesn't have a split hoof. The text itself doesn't explain why. Wouldn't your first question be, why not?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: EnigmaZV on October 14, 2014, 07:39:27 PM
Too bad he didn't write down the answer he got.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 14, 2014, 07:52:56 PM
He didn't have to. Its in Oral Torah. Every thing the Rabbis have ever debated about in the last 4500 years is classified as Oral Torah. That is the nature of the beast. We believe that that is what God gave us, but he gave us Oral Torah to figure out for ourselves. We have to use our own reason to get to the answers. Simply relying on "because Moses said so" is not enough. We need to understand for ourselves what God wanted us to do. The results that we come up with are invariably going the be the same ones that God gave to Moses, because God did not just tell Moses, because X. Instead, he made Moses answer his own question. So when Moses says, why can't we eat pork, God's answer is, why do you think you can't eat pork? Moses thinks, and processes that, and comes up with some possible answers, and God gives him some ideas. We use the same process now. Eventually, the same result will be obtained, because we believe that the Rabbis have the spirit of God in them, as Moses did.

This is not to say that they are Prophets and Lawgivers the way he was. This is to say though, that they are not stupid men. They are entirely capable of understanding the world around them and coming up with answers to problems that present themselves. For that matter, so is the individual Jew on matters that affect him or his loved ones personally. With much prayer and meditation, one can know how to apply Jewish Law under some circumstances. Of course, the help of one's Rabbi is often of benefit.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: EnigmaZV on October 14, 2014, 07:57:36 PM
Well I think it was given to Moses so they didn't eat their camels if they got desperately hungry, and pigs were an afterthought.

Does that commandment also mean that you can't eat fish?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 14, 2014, 08:03:46 PM
No, it applies to land animals. Sea animals fall under a different set of rules, as do animals which fly. In the water you may eat true fish, ie, things that have fins and scales. This means no shellfish, no lobster, no crab, etc. As far as birds, you can't eat birds of pray or carrion eaters.

You can't eat insects, EXCEPT for locusts, which are indeed kosher for eating (not that i personally ever met someone who wanted to eat one), and you can't eat things that creep, like worms, and things of that nature.
 
As far as land animals, if it exists on land, it has to chew the cud, and it has to have cloven hoofs. otherwise it can't be eaten. If an animal is not kosher, then no product derived from it is kosher with one exception. Bees are NOT kosher to eat, but their honey is.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 14, 2014, 08:07:11 PM
Lol. Can't have them eating the fucking bees, that would be barbarous. Locusts are alright though.

It really does seem like some numpty sat down and wrote out every animal they were aware of, before arbitrarily putting ticks or crosses next to each one.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 14, 2014, 08:15:47 PM
He didn't have to. Its in Oral Torah. Every thing the Rabbis have ever debated about in the last 4500 years is classified as Oral Torah. That is the nature of the beast. We believe that that is what God gave us, but he gave us Oral Torah to figure out for ourselves. We have to use our own reason to get to the answers. Simply relying on "because Moses said so" is not enough. We need to understand for ourselves what God wanted us to do. The results that we come up with are invariably going the be the same ones that God gave to Moses, because God did not just tell Moses, because X. Instead, he made Moses answer his own question. So when Moses says, why can't we eat pork, God's answer is, why do you think you can't eat pork? Moses thinks, and processes that, and comes up with some possible answers, and God gives him some ideas. We use the same process now. Eventually, the same result will be obtained, because we believe that the Rabbis have the spirit of God in them, as Moses did.

This is not to say that they are Prophets and Lawgivers the way he was. This is to say though, that they are not stupid men. They are entirely capable of understanding the world around them and coming up with answers to problems that present themselves. For that matter, so is the individual Jew on matters that affect him or his loved ones personally. With much prayer and meditation, one can know how to apply Jewish Law under some circumstances. Of course, the help of one's Rabbi is often of benefit.
Best evidence for a lack of a God I've ever heard.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 14, 2014, 09:40:29 PM

Best evidence for a lack of a God I've ever heard.
[/quote]

Or perhaps just further evidence that you are too unintelligent to comprehend my response. Again, I strongly advise Special Education. If you like, tell me what city you're in, and I'll track down the aid that they have for Special Needs adults in that city, County, and State. I won't even charge you for the privilege. On the house.

You see, most of us appreciate being able to use our brains in concert with God to understand ourselves. We leave being told what to do in dictatorial fashion to the Southern Baptists. And we leave the idea of thinking we have complete control over everything to people like you, who have such limited intelligence that they honestly believe themselves when they say that the universe occurred by itself. Or even worse, that humans have complete control over their own lives.

So, good on you. In all these posts, you have managed to prove nothing except your own limitations, which appear to me to be quite severe. That is unfortunate. For the briefest moment, I thought you were actually going to be a challenge. NOT!Oh, well. A pity.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 14, 2014, 09:46:37 PM
Do you preview you posts at all?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 14, 2014, 09:51:34 PM
I'm not worried about the minor quotation issues. The quotation system here is not that good, so I am forced to make do. I do well enough to get my point across. As far as my grammar and spelling, I do try to check that, yes.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: EnigmaZV on October 14, 2014, 09:56:11 PM
So I'm curious, why is it that so much is forbidden to eat? Let's use the standard pork and lobster as examples.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 14, 2014, 09:58:34 PM
Quote
Best evidence for a lack of a God I've ever heard.
Or perhaps just further evidence that you were too unintelligent to comprehend my response. Again, I strongly advise Special Education. If you like, tell me what city you're in, and I'll track down the aid that they have for Special Needs adults in that city, County, and State. I won't even charge you for the privilege. On the house.
I understand you have personal experience with being specially educated but I can assure you I've passed all intelligence tests with high marks.  But I appreciate the concern for my well being.
Quote

You see, most of us appreciate being able to use our brains in concert with God to understand ourselves. We leave being told what to do in dictatorial fashion to the Southern Baptists.

Ummm.... the Torah seems to disagree with you on that. 

Quote

And we leave the idea of thinking we have complete control over everything to people like you

I control myself.  I do not control the Universe (though I do control some small parts of it such as my TV, my computer, and the glass I am currently drinking from).

Quote

, who have such limited intelligence that they honestly believe themselves when they say that the universe occurred by itself. Or even worse, that humans have complete control over their own lives.

Well considering I'm living comfortably and happy: I have a job I love that pays well enough, a wonderful wife, and a newborn son.  If God has any control over my life, you'd think I'd be suffering right?  I mean, I'm against his chosen people, or at least you.  If God has control, why would he give me what one could easily consider a perfect life? 

Quote

So, good on you. In all these posts, you have managed to prove nothing except your own limitations, which appear to me to be quite severe. That is unfortunate. For the briefest moment, I thought you were actually going to be a challenge.
NOT!Oh, well. A pity.
Said the guy who can't learn to use the quote feature.  Just saying..
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 14, 2014, 10:02:27 PM
So I'm curious, why is it that so much is forbidden to eat? Let's use the standard pork and lobster as examples.

Well, there are a variety of answers I could give to the question that is posted here on the quoted page. But pork is simple. One, its EXTREMELY unhealthy for you. Two, its damned hard to cook without getting worms, especially over an open fire.

Now, why the original message asked about penguins, I am still trying to figure out! I don't know anything about penguins, let alone whether one is allowed to eat them, so I can't answer that question.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: EnigmaZV on October 14, 2014, 10:14:39 PM
What makes pork more unhealthy than any other meat product? Of course you're keeping in mind that they would have come across wild pigs, and not domestic ones, so the meat from them was probably leaner than any well fed domestic animals at the time.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 14, 2014, 10:24:09 PM
So I'm curious, why is it that so much is forbidden to eat? Let's use the standard pork and lobster as examples.

Well, there are a variety of answers I could give to the question that is posted here on the quoted page. But pork is simple. One, its EXTREMELY unhealthy for you. Two, its damned hard to cook without getting worms, especially over an open fire.

Now, why the original message asked about penguins, I am still trying to figure out! I don't know anything about penguins, let alone whether one is aloud to eat them, so I can't answer that question.


Pork is neither "extremely" unhealthy for you nor difficult to cook even over an open fire.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 14, 2014, 10:42:54 PM
So I'm curious, why is it that so much is forbidden to eat? Let's use the standard pork and lobster as examples.

Well, there are a variety of answers I could give to the question that is posted here on the quoted page. But pork is simple. One, its EXTREMELY unhealthy for you. Two, its damned hard to cook without getting worms, especially over an open fire.

Now, why the original message asked about penguins, I am still trying to figure out! I don't know anything about penguins, let alone whether one is aloud to eat them, so I can't answer that question.

Wait... Jews can't even cook pork right and think its Extremely unhealthy?  Wow...

Wait, no.  I'm sorry: God thinks they can't cook it and that its bad for them.  That rule came from God did it not?
So God thinks the Jews can't cook meat right.  No wonder he had to give you the safety scissors of food.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 14, 2014, 11:38:18 PM
Why would God make an animal that tastes so good also be very unhealthy to eat? Checkmate, Jews.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 14, 2014, 11:53:22 PM
Oh I forgot to answer:
If God gave me a bunch of rules, I would not have a lot of questions.  He's GOD for God's sake!  If he says to jump off a bridge, you jump off the bridge.  I would, however, expect God to at least update the rules once in a while.

Once the microwave came into being, you'd think Bacon would be totally ok. 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 15, 2014, 12:29:24 AM
What makes pork more unhealthy than any other meat product? Of course you're keeping in mind that they would have come across wild pigs, and not domestic ones, so the meat from them was probably leaner than any well fed domestic animals at the time.

Try to cook pork over an open fire, and try to make absolutely certain that it is cooked all the way through. Its damned hard to do. And if you don't, you get worms. Furthermore, they eat filth. If you want to eat that, feel free, but I damned sure don't.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 15, 2014, 12:31:01 AM
So I'm curious, why is it that so much is forbidden to eat? Let's use the standard pork and lobster as examples.

My apologies for sounding unpleasant. As far as lobster goes, they are bottom feeders, as are most shellfish. I certainly don't want to eat them.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 15, 2014, 12:41:11 AM
Quote
Best evidence for a lack of a God I've ever heard.
Or perhaps just further evidence that you were too unintelligent to comprehend my response. Again, I strongly advise Special Education. If you like, tell me what city you're in, and I'll track down the aid that they have for Special Needs adults in that city, County, and State. I won't even charge you for the privilege. On the house.
I understand you have personal experience with being specially educated but I can assure you I've passed all intelligence tests with high marks.  But I appreciate the concern for my well being.
Quote


Actually, no, I am just good at getting people help. My intelligence is fine, thank you.
You see, most of us appreciate being able to use our brains in concert with God to understand ourselves. We leave being told what to do in dictatorial fashion to the Southern Baptists.

Ummm.... the Torah seems to disagree with you on that. 

Quote

And we leave the idea of thinking we have complete control over everything to people like you

I control myself.  I do not control the Universe (though I do control some small parts of it such as my TV, my computer, and the glass I am currently drinking from).

Quote

, who have such limited intelligence that they honestly believe themselves when they say that the universe occurred by itself. Or even worse, that humans have complete control over their own lives.

Well considering I'm living comfortably and happy: I have a job I love that pays well enough, a wonderful wife, and a newborn son.  If God has any control over my life, you'd think I'd be suffering right?  I mean, I'm against his chosen people, or at least you.  If God has control, why would he give me what one could easily consider a perfect life? 

Quote

So, good on you. In all these posts, you have managed to prove nothing except your own limitations, which appear to me to be quite severe. That is unfortunate. For the briefest moment, I thought you were actually going to be a challenge.
NOT!Oh, well. A pity.
Said the guy who can't learn to use the quote feature.  Just saying..

And your life is relevant to me how? I tend to think my life is close to perfect also. A beautiful wife (just married), a nice dog, no kids (don't want any of the little buggers). So, the fact that your life is in your mind perfect, and mine is likewise, doesn't change things one bit, now does it?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 15, 2014, 12:44:03 AM
So I'm curious, why is it that so much is forbidden to eat? Let's use the standard pork and lobster as examples.

Well, there are a variety of answers I could give to the question that is posted here on the quoted page. But pork is simple. One, its EXTREMELY unhealthy for you. Two, its damned hard to cook without getting worms, especially over an open fire.

Now, why the original message asked about penguins, I am still trying to figure out! I don't know anything about penguins, let alone whether one is aloud to eat them, so I can't answer that question.

Wait... Jews can't even cook pork right and think its Extremely unhealthy?  Wow...

Wait, no.  I'm sorry: God thinks they can't cook it and that its bad for them.  That rule came from God did it not?
So God thinks the Jews can't cook meat right.  No wonder he had to give you the safety scissors of food.

And the fact that they eat filth. Along with shellfish, and catfish, and other things that Gentiles eat.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 15, 2014, 12:47:12 AM
Why would God make an animal that tastes so good also be very unhealthy to eat? Checkmate, Jews.

Ah, your point? Antifreeze tastes good to a dog. Why not give him some for dinner tonight? I am sure some very poisonous berries probably taste delightful. You're free to eat them if you wish, of course. You're not a good chess player. I wouldn't try that move again.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on October 15, 2014, 12:48:08 AM
Can you provide a source for pigs "eating filfth"?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 15, 2014, 12:49:52 AM
What is the "pot party"?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 15, 2014, 12:51:27 AM
What makes pork more unhealthy than any other meat product? Of course you're keeping in mind that they would have come across wild pigs, and not domestic ones, so the meat from them was probably leaner than any well fed domestic animals at the time.

Try to cook pork over an open fire, and try to make absolutely certain that it is cooked all the way through. Its damned hard to do. And if you don't, you get worms. Furthermore, they eat filth. If you want to eat that, feel free, but I damned sure don't.
I went to a pig roast with a pig that was cooked under ground.
Perfectly.

So yeah, not very hard.
And you can't get worms if the pig doesn't have worms.  Worms don't magically appear in pig meat from the fire.

Pigs eat Filth?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig#Diet_and_foraging (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig#Diet_and_foraging)

Quote
In the wild, they are foraging animals, primarily eating leaves, grasses, roots, fruits and flowers. In confinement pigs are fed mostly corn and soybean meal with a mixture of vitamins and minerals added to the diet.

You like to call people stupid and "special education" but you don't even know what pigs eat.  What, did you think they ate poop or something?

You need an education in biology.   Specifically the food chain.
You probably think Grass is "gross".




Actually, no, I am just good at getting people help. My intelligence is fine, thank you.
So far you've confused and insulted people here more than educated.  If you're good at getting people help, maybe you should find some for yourself.  You clearly need it if you're going to interact with non-jews.  Or at least try to educate them.
Quote
And your life is relevant to me how? I tend to think my life is close to perfect also. A beautiful wife (just married), a nice dog, no kids (don't want any of the little buggers). So, the fact that your life is in your mind perfect, and mine is likewise, doesn't change things one bit, now does it?
Makes me wonder: If God is controlling both of our lives, even a little, why are we equal in our happiness?  It's almost like it doesn't matter if you follow the laws of God or not.  And doesn't it make you a bit jealous?  Here I am, not following the laws of God, disrespecting his chosen people, insulting him directly, and God gives me the same level of happiness as you.  You, who have suffered and sacrificed to follow his law.



And the fact that they eat filth. Along with shellfish, and catfish, and other things that Gentiles eat.
Define "Filth" because I don't think you know what that means.

Antifreeze is a man-made chemical.
Delicious tasting berries do so to spread their seeds.  The dead body of the organism who ate them provide nutrients for the seeds to grow.  Better question: Why would god make a berry that is poisonous?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 15, 2014, 01:05:34 AM
What is the "pot party"?

They favour the national legalisation of marijuana in the United States.
What makes pork more unhealthy than any other meat product? Of course you're keeping in mind that they would have come across wild pigs, and not domestic ones, so the meat from them was probably leaner than any well fed domestic animals at the time.

Try to cook pork over an open fire, and try to make absolutely certain that it is cooked all the way through. Its damned hard to do. And if you don't, you get worms. Furthermore, they eat filth. If you want to eat that, feel free, but I damned sure don't.
I went to a pig roast with a pig that was cooked under ground.
Perfectly.

So yeah, not very hard.
And you can't get worms if the pig doesn't have worms.  Worms don't magically appear in pig meat from the fire.

Pigs eat Filth?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig#Diet_and_foraging (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig#Diet_and_foraging)

Quote
In the wild, they are foraging animals, primarily eating leaves, grasses, roots, fruits and flowers. In confinement pigs are fed mostly corn and soybean meal with a mixture of vitamins and minerals added to the diet.

Pigs forage for anything they can get and will eat carrion when they can as well.

You like to call people stupid and "special education" but you don't even know what pigs eat.  What, did you think they ate poop or something?

You need an education in biology.   Specifically the food chain.
You probably think Grass is "gross".




Actually, no, I am just good at getting people help. My intelligence is fine, thank you.
So far you've confused and insulted people here more than educated.  If you're good at getting people help, maybe you should find some for yourself.  You clearly need it if you're going to interact with non-jews.  Or at least try to educate them.
Quote
And your life is relevant to me how? I tend to think my life is close to perfect also. A beautiful wife (just married), a nice dog, no kids (don't want any of the little buggers). So, the fact that your life is in your mind perfect, and mine is likewise, doesn't change things one bit, now does it?
Makes me wonder: If God is controlling both of our lives, even a little, why are we equal in our happiness?  It's almost like it doesn't matter if you follow the laws of God or not.  And doesn't it make you a bit jealous?  Here I am, not following the laws of God, disrespecting his chosen people, insulting him directly, and God gives me the same level of happiness as you.  You, who have suffered and sacrificed to follow his law.

You seem to forget that non-Jews are not obligated to follow God's laws. They are obligated only to the Laws of Noah. I would encourage you to look those up under the designation "Noahide Laws".



And the fact that they eat filth. Along with shellfish, and catfish, and other things that Gentiles eat.
Define "Filth" because I don't think you know what that means.

Antifreeze is a man-made chemical.
Delicious tasting berries do so to spread their seeds.  The dead body of the organism who ate them provide nutrients for the seeds to grow.  Better question: Why would god make a berry that is poisonous?
[/size]

Its probably not poisonous to the animal that needs to eat it. And if it is, as you correctly point out, it serves its purpose, as all things do.

Oh I forgot to answer:
If God gave me a bunch of rules, I would not have a lot of questions.  He's GOD for God's sake!  If he says to jump off a bridge, you jump off the bridge.  I would, however, expect God to at least update the rules once in a while.

Once the microwave came into being, you'd think Bacon would be totally ok.

So you are the kind that likes being told what to do. Well, you ought to do just fine in North Korea. Actually, microwaves are even harder to determine whether bacon is thoroughly cooked, because the cooking time with them varies so much from device to device.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 15, 2014, 01:06:53 AM
Yaakov, you  obviously don't cook much.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 15, 2014, 01:23:01 AM
QUOTE: "Pigs are omnivores, which means that they consume both plants and animals." Source, Wikipedia, article, Pig.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on October 15, 2014, 01:23:42 AM
QUOTE: "Pigs are omnivores, which means that they consume both plants and animals." Source, Wikipedia, article, Pig.

Therefore, filth? What?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 15, 2014, 01:32:31 AM
QUOTE: "What do feral hogs eat?

Feral hogs are omnivorous, meaning they eat both plant and animal matter. They are very opportunistic feeders and much of their diet is based on seasonal availability. Foods include grasses, forbs, roots and tubers, browse, mast (acorns), fruits, bulbs and mushrooms. Animal matter includes invertebrates (insects, snails, earthworms, etc.), reptiles, amphibians, and carrion (dead animals), as well as live mammals and birds if given the opportunity. Feral hogs are especially fond of acorns and domestic agricultural crops such as corn, milo, rice, wheat, soybeans, peanuts, potatoes, watermelons and cantaloupe. Feral hogs feed primarily at night and during twilight hours, but will also feed during daylight in cold or wet weather."

source: http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/wild/nuisance/feral_hogs/

Invertebrates and especially carrion constitute filth, yes.

Corrected.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on October 15, 2014, 01:47:32 AM
You don't eat any invertebrates?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 15, 2014, 01:48:23 AM
Jews have a strange definition of Filth.  It doesn't seem to match any other definition.

I guess god didn't bother to give Moses a biology or cooking lesson.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 15, 2014, 01:49:17 AM
You don't eat any invertebrates?

Ah, no. Even assuming I wanted to, I wouldn't be permitted to.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 15, 2014, 01:50:39 AM
Oh hey, you can eat duck and chicken.  And guess what THEY eat?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 15, 2014, 01:54:57 AM
NOW, they eat some pretty nasty shit, yes. But at the time, they weren't too bad. I stand corrected about the worms. NOW, I understand that chickens eat some Godawful shit.Thank you Monsantos.

Of course, virtually everything we eat in the United States except organic food is so damned engineered its ridiculous. Granted, kosher food is not permitted to be that engineered, but still...
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 15, 2014, 01:59:47 AM
NOW, they eat some pretty nasty shit, yes. But at the time, they weren't too bad. I stand corrected about the worms. NOW, I understand that chickens eat some Godawful shit.Thank you Monsantos.
Chickens have always eaten worms, seeds, and insects.

Yet when a pig does it, its horrible.  Double standards much?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on October 15, 2014, 02:04:49 AM
I've recently learned that Palestinians have the highest concentration of phDs, especially in economics, of any nationality in the world. Is this why jews hate them so badly? Are you jealous of their banking prowess?

Why would God make an animal that tastes so good also be very unhealthy to eat? Checkmate, Jews.

Ah, your point? Antifreeze tastes good to a dog. Why not give him some for dinner tonight? I am sure some very poisonous berries probably taste delightful. You're free to eat them if you wish, of course. You're not a good chess player. I wouldn't try that move again.

I'm not sure you addressed his point. Why would god make something so bad so good? That doesn't make any sense.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 15, 2014, 02:06:37 AM
Actually, microwaves are even harder to determine whether bacon is thoroughly cooked, because the cooking time with them varies so much from device to device.

What? No, it doesn't. A microwave is a microwave. Unless you're using microwaves with different wattage ratings and expecting them to cook food at the same rate. You wouldn't be doing that, would you?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on October 15, 2014, 02:21:35 AM
What makes pork more unhealthy than any other meat product?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichinosis
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 15, 2014, 02:32:34 AM
I've recently learned that Palestinians have the highest concentration of phDs, especially in economics, of any nationality in the world. Is this why jews hate them so badly? Are you jealous of their banking prowess?

Tausami, I find that unlikely, since most "Palestinians" are very poorly educated, if at all. In fact, I should like to see your source. But, even assuming you are right, and you might be, how is that relevant? I have no banking prowess at all. Your point?

Why would God make an animal that tastes so good also be very unhealthy to eat? Checkmate, Jews.

Ah, your point? Antifreeze tastes good to a dog. Why not give him some for dinner tonight? I am sure some very poisonous berries probably taste delightful. You're free to eat them if you wish, of course. You're not a good chess player. I wouldn't try that move again.

I'm not sure you addressed his point. Why would god make something so bad so good? That doesn't make any sense.

Ah, because shit happens?

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 15, 2014, 02:34:34 AM
Actually, microwaves are even harder to determine whether bacon is thoroughly cooked, because the cooking time with them varies so much from device to device.

What? No, it doesn't. A microwave is a microwave. Unless you're using microwaves with different wattage ratings and expecting them to cook food at the same rate. You wouldn't be doing that, would you?

Even those with the same wattage vary with age. Trust me, I have run into this problem with the microwave I use now, compared to the one I used before I was married.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 15, 2014, 02:35:35 AM
What makes pork more unhealthy than any other meat product?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichinosis

Thank you, Markjo.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 15, 2014, 02:37:03 AM
Even those with the same wattage vary with age. Trust me, I have run into this problem with the microwave I use now, compared to the one I used before I was married.

It really sounds like your idea of a microwave is a $20 easy bake oven from wally world.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 15, 2014, 02:39:45 AM
What makes pork more unhealthy than any other meat product?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichinosis

Thank you, Markjo.
healthyeating.sfgate.com/risks-undercooked-chicken-2327.html

Pretty much any undercooked meat is bad.  Pork is far from unique in that regard.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 15, 2014, 02:46:14 AM
The top 10 most-educated countries are:

1. Canada

2. Israel

3. Japan

4. United States

5. New Zealand

6. South Korea

7. United Kingdom

8. Finland

9. Australia

10. Ireland

Source: http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/09/27/and-the-worlds-most-educated-country-is/

Notice: "Palestine" is not on the list. And given that 80% of countries recognise it as a country, it should be.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 15, 2014, 03:11:48 AM
What makes pork more unhealthy than any other meat product?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichinosis

Thank you, Markjo.
healthyeating.sfgate.com/risks-undercooked-chicken-2327.html

Pretty much any undercooked meat is bad.  Pork is far from unique in that regard.

Chicken is pretty nasty for you if undercooked. But it doesn't have the double-whammy of eating carrion. Eating dead things was considered to be, and still is, so far as I know, EXTREMELY unhealthy for the human who came along and ate the thing that ate the carrion eater later. Seriously, now. Tell me. You wouldn't eat a vulture, but you do eat a hog? That is nasty-ass, and its comparable.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on October 15, 2014, 04:18:27 AM
What makes pork more unhealthy than any other meat product?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichinosis

Thank you, Markjo.
healthyeating.sfgate.com/risks-undercooked-chicken-2327.html

Pretty much any undercooked meat is bad.  Pork is far from unique in that regard.

Chicken is pretty nasty for you if undercooked. But it doesn't have the double-whammy of eating carrion. Eating dead things was considered to be, and still is, so far as I know, EXTREMELY unhealthy for the human who came along and ate the thing that ate the carrion eater later. Seriously, now. Tell me. You wouldn't eat a vulture, but you do eat a hog? That is nasty-ass, and its comparable.

Quote from: http://www.answers.com/Q/What_are_carrion_eaters
* Human meat eaters are NOT carnivores, because Real-Carnivores eat LIVING animals.

* REAL Carnivores salivate at the sight of an animal - as their prey. Humans do not.

* REAL Carnivores make the kill themselves with their own fangs and claws. Humans do not.

* Human (fake) 'carnivores' are merely CARRION EATERS, like scavengers or vultures, ...they only eat DEAD meat. In other words, they ingest only DEATH.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Thork on October 15, 2014, 08:15:04 AM
What makes pork more unhealthy than any other meat product?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichinosis

Thank you, Markjo.
healthyeating.sfgate.com/risks-undercooked-chicken-2327.html

Pretty much any undercooked meat is bad.  Pork is far from unique in that regard.

Chicken is pretty nasty for you if undercooked. But it doesn't have the double-whammy of eating carrion. Eating dead things was considered to be, and still is, so far as I know, EXTREMELY unhealthy for the human who came along and ate the thing that ate the carrion eater later. Seriously, now. Tell me. You wouldn't eat a vulture, but you do eat a hog? That is nasty-ass, and its comparable.

Quote from: http://www.answers.com/Q/What_are_carrion_eaters
* Human meat eaters are NOT carnivores, because Real-Carnivores eat LIVING animals.

* REAL Carnivores salivate at the sight of an animal - as their prey. Humans do not.

* REAL Carnivores make the kill themselves with their own fangs and claws. Humans do not.

* Human (fake) 'carnivores' are merely CARRION EATERS, like scavengers or vultures, ...they only eat DEAD meat. In other words, they ingest only DEATH.
I think your yahoo.answers person doesn't know the difference between a predator and a carnivore. We eat meat and we eat veggies... omnivores.

Bye Markjo, hello Yakov.

But eating pork is fine. It is a domesticated animal reared for meat. And its delicious I might add.

The problem that jews and muslims have with pork, is that their religious texts do not keep up with technology. There is no Hebrew bible 2nd edition. They don't bring out a new one each year. 2000 years ago, eating pork in the desert would be a seriously bad idea. Pigs are similar in anthropology to humans. And so parasites that like pigs, tend to like humans too. You eat pork 2000 years ago in the desert and you are going to get worms, lice, bacterial infections etc etc.

And religious texts were a form of early law. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not kill. Still as useful today as they were back then. Don't eat pork .... well things have changed. We have antibiotics and medicate sick animals and crucially, we have refrigeration. Wise old law writers making a book to base a civilisation on aren't able to foresee that in 2000 years pork is gonna be great to eat and perfectly safe.

Christian rules don't have that, because Christians tended to be from Europe where its not as hot and the dangers of pork, not so bad. So European religions never forbade it. But our texts are equally as bad at keeping up with technology. Don't have sex with your immediate family. Of course, you don't want an inbred society. But these days we have contraception. You could have sex with a family member and if you were both up for it, its not going to make any difference. I still find it icky though because of my culture, much like you don't relish a bacon sandwich.
But I wouldn't care if I heard some guy was banging his sister and she loved it any more than you mind other people eating hot dogs. Its just not for me.

 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 15, 2014, 10:12:15 AM
Because incest is great so long as you wear a rubber.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 15, 2014, 12:21:33 PM
What makes pork more unhealthy than any other meat product?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichinosis

Thank you, Markjo.
healthyeating.sfgate.com/risks-undercooked-chicken-2327.html

Pretty much any undercooked meat is bad.  Pork is far from unique in that regard.

Chicken is pretty nasty for you if undercooked. But it doesn't have the double-whammy of eating carrion. Eating dead things was considered to be, and still is, so far as I know, EXTREMELY unhealthy for the human who came along and ate the thing that ate the carrion eater later. Seriously, now. Tell me. You wouldn't eat a vulture, but you do eat a hog? That is nasty-ass, and its comparable.

Quote from: http://www.answers.com/Q/What_are_carrion_eaters
* Human meat eaters are NOT carnivores, because Real-Carnivores eat LIVING animals.

* REAL Carnivores salivate at the sight of an animal - as their prey. Humans do not.

* REAL Carnivores make the kill themselves with their own fangs and claws. Humans do not.

* Human (fake) 'carnivores' are merely CARRION EATERS, like scavengers or vultures, ...they only eat DEAD meat. In other words, they ingest only DEATH.
I think your yahoo.answers person doesn't know the difference between a predator and a carnivore. We eat meat and we eat veggies... omnivores.

A carrion eater is something that eats a thing that died of itself. Humans do not generally eat something that died on its own. We generally kill it ourselves, and then find a way of making sure the meat is safe to eat. Eating carrion would be EXTREMELY hazardous, as would eating anything that eats carrion. Ergo, the need for the laws that forbid such. Our Yahoo answers friend is full of it.

Bye Markjo, hello Yakov.

But eating pork is fine. It is a domesticated animal reared for meat. And its delicious I might add.

The problem that jews and muslims have with pork, is that their religious texts do not keep up with technology. There is no Hebrew bible 2nd edition. They don't bring out a new one each year. 2000 years ago, eating pork in the desert would be a seriously bad idea. Pigs are similar in anthropology to humans. And so parasites that like pigs, tend to like humans too. You eat pork 2000 years ago in the desert and you are going to get worms, lice, bacterial infections etc etc.

And religious texts were a form of early law. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not kill. Still as useful today as they were back then. Don't eat pork .... well things have changed. We have antibiotics and medicate sick animals and crucially, we have refrigeration. Wise old law writers making a book to base a civilisation on aren't able to foresee that in 2000 years pork is gonna be great to eat and perfectly safe.

Christian rules don't have that, because Christians tended to be from Europe where its not as hot and the dangers of pork, not so bad. So European religions never forbade it. But our texts are equally as bad at keeping up with technology. Don't have sex with your immediate family. Of course, you don't want an inbred society. But these days we have contraception. You could have sex with a family member and if you were both up for it, its not going to make any difference. I still find it icky though because of my culture, much like you don't relish a bacon sandwich.
But I wouldn't care if I heard some guy was banging his sister and she loved it any more than you mind other people eating hot dogs. Its just not for me.

Well, though I still don't agree with you, this is by far the most logical and intelligent response I have gotten so far. Allow me to point out a few things. First off, only Jews are obligated to the 613 Commandments of the Law, many of which are the Laws of Kashruth (Kosher Laws). A non-Jew is only obligated to the Laws of Noah. I would encourage you all to refer to an internet search for "Noahides" on Google for information on that. God never said that a non-Jew couldn't eat a ham sandwich.   So that is point one. Point two is that pork is still unhealthy courtesy of its tendency to be a carrion eater. And look what they feed it! Slop! I know it is reared for meat. I know risks are low today. But stilll...

And ultimately, here is what ALL these rules come down to. Why do we follow them? Well, I could give you plenty of reasons. But the ultimate reason is this: BECAUSE GOD SAID SO! No other reason necessary. God is God. One does not argue with the God of Israel when one is a Jew. One fulfills one's duty to one's God, and in return, one's God maintains his side of the Covenant. End of stary.


Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on October 15, 2014, 12:29:55 PM
A carrion eater is something that eats a thing that died of itself.
Incorrect. 

Humans do not generally eat something that died on its own. We generally kill it ourselves, and then find a way of making sure the meat is safe to eat.
When is the last time that you killed something that you ate?

If vegetarians don't eat meat because they love animals, how do they feel about plants?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 15, 2014, 12:46:31 PM
End of stary.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on October 15, 2014, 02:36:13 PM
Crash course quotations:

[quote] begins a quote.
[/quote] ends a quote.

This is all you need to know. It's pretty simple. Don't reply within other people's quotes. It's weird.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on October 15, 2014, 04:00:46 PM
People in Tennessee are legally allowed to eat road kill and they aren't dying by the thousands because of it.  If that doesn't tell you something about the "dangers" of carrion then I'm not sure what will.  When you cook something, you are heating it to kill off any parasite or disease living inside it, thus making it safe to eat.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: EnigmaZV on October 15, 2014, 04:10:52 PM
You don't eat any invertebrates?

Ah, no. Even assuming I wanted to, I wouldn't be permitted to.

Except that you are permitted to.

You can't eat insects, EXCEPT for locusts
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on October 15, 2014, 04:36:52 PM
People from many cultures eat all sorts of disgusting stuff and yet seem lead normal, healthy lives.  I wonder what they know that the Jews don't?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 16, 2014, 01:38:00 AM
Roadkill is not carrion. It did not die of itself. A human killed it by hitting it with a car. A thing only dies of itself because of old age or disease. And I am aware of TN law, having lived there for 3 of the most miserable years of my life. The people there are almost as backward as Arabs.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 16, 2014, 01:48:30 AM
Roadkill is not carrion. It did not die of itself. A human killed it by hitting it with a car. A thing only dies of itself because of old age or disease. And I am aware of TN law, having lived there for 3 of the most miserable years of my life. The people there are almost as backward as Arabs.

You know what would have been easier?  Don't eat diseased meat.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on October 16, 2014, 01:50:57 AM
Roadkill is not carrion. It did not die of itself. A human killed it by hitting it with a car. A thing only dies of itself because of old age or disease.
Carrion is defined as the decaying flesh of dead animals.  How the animals die is completely irrelevant.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 16, 2014, 02:24:38 AM
I don't know about you, but as I recall, the Bible defines it as anything that dies of itself.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 16, 2014, 02:30:50 AM
Why have we (or more specifically, you) not received an updated and properly translated book from the the storm cloud god (Thor?) you speak of? It seems like the guidance would change a bit noting advances in technology make things like how "dangerous" pig meat is irrelevant.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on October 16, 2014, 02:34:57 AM
I don't know about you, but as I recall, the Bible defines it as anything that dies of itself.
So you're saying that the rotting leftovers of a gazelle that's killed by a lion isn't carrion?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 16, 2014, 02:35:53 AM
Apparently we were both right: Observe the following.

"Carrion (from the Latin "caro", meaning "meat") refers to the dead and decaying flesh of an animal.

Carrion is an important food source for large carnivores and omnivores in most ecosystems. Examples of carrion-eaters (or scavengers) include vultures, hawks, eagles,[1] hyenas,[2] Virginia Opossum,[3] Tasmanian Devils,[4] coyotes,[5] Komodo dragons,[6] and burying beetles.[7] Many invertebrates such as the burying beetles, as well as maggots of calliphorid flies and Flesh-flies also eat carrion, playing an important role in recycling nitrogen and carbon in animal remains.



Carrion begins to decay the moment of the animal's death, and it will increasingly attract insects and breed bacteria. Not long after the animal has died, its body will begin to exude a foul odor caused by the presence of bacteria and the emission of cadaverine and putrescine.

Some plants and fungi smell like decomposing carrion and attract insects that aid in reproduction. Plants that exhibit this behavior are known as carrion flowers. Stinkhorn mushrooms are examples of fungi with this characteristic.

The word carrion is often used in Danish mythology to describe animals that have been sacrificed and animals that have been killed due to the gods' fury.[citation needed]



Sometimes carrion is used to describe an infected carcass that is diseased and should not be touched. An example of carrion being used to describe dead and rotting bodies in literature may be found in William Shakespeare's play Julius Caesar:

Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war;
That this foul deed shall smell above the earth
With carrion men, groaning for burial.
(III.i)[8]
Another example can be found in Daniel Defoe's Robinson Crusoe when the title character kills an unknown bird for food but finds "its flesh was carrion, and fit for nothing".

Edited to eliminate captions to pictures that do not appear here, but do in Wikipedia.

Source: Wikipedia.

Also refer to the Seven Laws of Noah in  Wikipedia.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 16, 2014, 02:45:32 AM
Why have we (or more specifically, you) not received an updated and properly translated book from the the storm cloud god (Thor?) you speak of? It seems like the guidance would change a bit noting advances in technology make things like how "dangerous" pig meat is irrelevant.

Maybe you consider the stuff safe, but I don't, thank you. Trichinosis is not my idea of healthy. Neither is an animal that eats slop.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 16, 2014, 02:47:07 AM
Maybe you consider the stuff safe, but I don't, thank you. Trichinosis is not my idea of healthy. Neither is an animal that eats slop.

All of life consists of the same basic components, its not relevant where it comes from.

Furthermore, all this really seems to tell me is God thinks Jews suck at cooking, and as a result, just went ahead and told them "don't bother, you'll mess it up anyway."
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 16, 2014, 03:00:43 AM
No, I expect that he didn't want people to die. That's usually pretty helpful. Now, I won't deny. Can pork be cooked safely today? Sure. Can a rat? Sure. That doesn't mean I'm going to. Ultimately it comes down to the following: There are all kinds of explanations for the Kosher Laws. But the ultimate one is the following. GOD TOLD US TO. End of story. SHUT UP AND DO IT. He didn't tell the Goy to do it. He told us. So there you are.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 16, 2014, 03:05:52 AM
No, I expect that he didn't want people to die. That's usually pretty helpful. Now, I won't deny. Can pork be cooked safely today? Sure. Can a rat? Sure. That doesn't mean I'm going to. Ultimately it comes down to the following: There are all kinds of explanations for the Kosher Laws. But the ultimate one is the following. GOD TOLD US TO. End of story. SHUT UP AND DO IT. He didn't tell the Goy to do it. He told us. So there you are.

Authoritarianism to the max. You think a nonexistent entity told you to do something and therefore you have to do it, all because you believe you'll be rewarded later. An omnipotent, omniscient, and questionably omnibenevolent being is willing to give you, personally, a reward for doing things such as not eating pork. I would find it funny if, you know, you and all the other Abrahamic religions would stop murdering people.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on October 16, 2014, 03:27:30 AM
No, I expect that he didn't want people to die.
Except the people He tells you to kill, of course.

Now, I won't deny. Can pork be cooked safely today? Sure. Can a rat? Sure.
Then you admit that kosher laws are essentially outdated and irrelevant today?  Good to know.

That doesn't mean I'm going to. Ultimately it comes down to the following: There are all kinds of explanations for the Kosher Laws. But the ultimate one is the following. GOD TOLD US TO. End of story. SHUT UP AND DO IT. He didn't tell the Goy to do it. He told us. So there you are.
So God doesn't want Jews to keep up with modern innovations in food safety?  ???
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 16, 2014, 04:09:51 AM
Actually, you've got that completely wrong. Jews could care less about the rewards. Some Jews don't even believe in an Afterlife. As Jews, we follow the Law because it is the Law. We could care less about what happens after death. After all, when we do die, we suffer for a year and a day from demons of our own creation, and then we go to Sheol, and we are neither happy nor sad until Judgement Day.

On Judgement Day, the righteous shall enter Paradise. The unrighteous shall simply go extinct. There is no hell, or place of torment. You simply cease to exist. That is the standard view held by most, but not all Jews. However, some Jews do believe in Heaven and Hell, some believe reincarnation, some believe in no Afterlife at all. And in all cases, we don't follow the Torah out of interest for the end. We follow the Law because it is the Law. That simple.

Nor do I admit that kosher laws are outdated. A pig can be cooked safely. But should it be? No. It is still an unhealthy animal to eat because of what it eats. And God at present doesn't command us to kill anyone. We are forced to kill Arabs because they want to destroy us.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 16, 2014, 04:13:45 AM
Actually, you've got that completely wrong. Jews could care less about the rewards. Some Jews don't even believe in an Afterlife. As Jews, we follow the Law because it is the Law. We could care less about what happens after death. After all, when we do die, we suffer for a year and a day from demons of our own creation, and then we go to Sheol, and we are neither happy nor sad until Judgement Day.

On Judgement Day, the righteous shall enter Paradise. The unrighteous shall simply go extinct. There is no hell, or place of torment. You simply cease to exist. That is the standard view held by most, but not all Jews. However, some Jews do believe in Heaven and Hell, some believe reincarnation, some believe in no Afterlife at all. And in all cases, we don't follow the Torah out of interest for the end. We follow the Law because it is the Law. That simple.

You say that a reward doesn't exist and then immediately start talking about a reward. Do you believe that you will be rewarded for your deeds, either before death (karma) or after?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 16, 2014, 04:24:16 AM
Actually, you've got that completely wrong. Jews could care less about the rewards. Some Jews don't even believe in an Afterlife. As Jews, we follow the Law because it is the Law. We could care less about what happens after death. After all, when we do die, we suffer for a year and a day from demons of our own creation, and then we go to Sheol, and we are neither happy nor sad until Judgement Day.

On Judgement Day, the righteous shall enter Paradise. The unrighteous shall simply go extinct. There is no hell, or place of torment. You simply cease to exist. That is the standard view held by most, but not all Jews. However, some Jews do believe in Heaven and Hell, some believe reincarnation, some believe in no Afterlife at all. And in all cases, we don't follow the Torah out of interest for the end. We follow the Law because it is the Law. That simple.

You say that a reward doesn't exist and then immediately start talking about a reward. Do you believe that you will be rewarded for your deeds, either before death (karma) or after?

What I believe about the Afterlife or lack thereof is entirely irrelevant to the fact that I must obey the Torah because it is the Torah. Whether there is an Afterlife or not is entirely beside the point. And whether I believe there is an Afterlife is entirely beside the point.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 16, 2014, 04:28:36 AM
What I believe about the Afterlife or lack thereof is entirely irrelevant to the fact that I must obey the Torah because it is the Torah. Whether there is an Afterlife or not is entirely beside the point. And whether I believe there is an Afterlife is entirely beside the point.

But its relevance is irrelevant. This is "Ask a Jew anything" not "Ask a Jew anything relevant to the Torah."

Why are you dodging such a simply question? Do you or do you not believe you will eventually receive some form of reward?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 16, 2014, 09:54:31 AM
No, I expect that he didn't want people to die. That's usually pretty helpful. Now, I won't deny. Can pork be cooked safely today? Sure. Can a rat? Sure. That doesn't mean I'm going to. Ultimately it comes down to the following: There are all kinds of explanations for the Kosher Laws. But the ultimate one

 is the following. GOD TOLD US TO. End of story. SHUT UP AND DO IT. He didn't tell the Goy to do it. He told us. So there you are.
So you are the kind that likes being told what to do. Well, you ought to do just fine in North Korea.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 16, 2014, 12:13:53 PM
No, I expect that he didn't want people to die. That's usually pretty helpful. Now, I won't deny. Can pork be cooked safely today? Sure. Can a rat? Sure. That doesn't mean I'm going to. Ultimately it comes down to the following: There are all kinds of explanations for the Kosher Laws. But the ultimate one

 is the following. GOD TOLD US TO. End of story. SHUT UP AND DO IT. He didn't tell the Goy to do it. He told us. So there you are.
So you are the kind that likes being told what to do. Well, you ought to do just fine in North Korea.

See, but at least Jews ask the questions. If there are no answers, then we shut up and do what we're told. You wouldn't even ask, as I recall your original post saying. Not very creative, are you? Have a look-see at the Talmud sometime, and observe the debates that go on regarding how to obey the Torah. We know we have to obey because God said so, but we ALSO want to know why he said so. You've already admitted you would never even ask the question. We admit that we WILL follow, but we still seek to know why. Enjoy North Korea.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on October 16, 2014, 12:26:45 PM
Actually, you've got that completely wrong. Jews could care less about the rewards. Some Jews don't even believe in an Afterlife.
If there is no afterlife, then what's the point in pleasing God in this one?

A pig can be cooked safely. But should it be? No.
Yes, it should.

It is still an unhealthy animal to eat because of what it eats.
Farm raised pigs are fed much healthier diets than wild pigs.

And God at present doesn't command us to kill anyone. We are forced to kill Arabs because they want to destroy us.
Apparently God doesn't want you to settle your differences with them eiter.  ::)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on October 16, 2014, 02:02:51 PM
Actually, you've got that completely wrong. Jews could care less about the rewards. Some Jews don't even believe in an Afterlife.
If there is no afterlife, then what's the point in pleasing God in this one?

Same reason some people will go through their entire life obsessed with pleasing their father. It's a half neurosis and half the misconception that his opinion matters.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on October 16, 2014, 02:04:43 PM
Why is it okay to eat cow when they ingest their own waste quite frequently while grazing?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 16, 2014, 07:52:43 PM
You see, God gave us Mitzvot (look that one up; it means Commandments, but the Hebrew word carries a much stronger connotation that I can't quite explain. However, look it up under the singular, Mitzvah) is not for a better life when we die. It is for a better life HERE. Judaism is a religion of the Here and Now. We could ultimately care less for what happens when we die. Even though a lot of Jews do believe in an Afterlife (I would say a majority), there are plenty who don't, and that is considered well within the norm for Jewish thinking.

The Torah says absolutely NOTHING about an Afterlife. The Writings don't say much about it except to talk about Sheol, the abode of the dead, wherein there is no feeling at all. There are some references that POSSIBLY point to an Afterlife concept in the Prophets.

Whether I personally believe in an Afterlife is beside the point. The point that I am making is not what I think. It doesn't matter what I think. It matters how I behave. Even if I don't believe in an Afterlife, or if I do, I am not going to change my behaviour one iota. I shall live as best a Jewish life I may. God said it, I do it, and try to find out WHY he said it. That is the nature of Judaism. If you have four Jews in a room you have five opinions. A joke, of course. But there is some truth to it. We are argumentative little fuckers, I'll say that much for us.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 16, 2014, 09:37:44 PM
What's the point of asking why if you don't change the law when the why becomes irrelevant?

Look at blood transfusions.  Why was it forbidden?  Because it could kill both of you since no one knew about needles or blood types and blood diseases.  Can we do it safely now?  Absolutely.  So the why has become irrelevant and thus the law needs to be changed.  But it never will.  Hence why Jews live in such a primitive time compared to Christians.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 16, 2014, 11:33:28 PM
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/10/shlomo-sand-i-wish-to-cease-considering-myself-a-jew

Quote
I am aware of living in one of the most racist societies in the western world. Racism is present to some degree everywhere, but in Israel it exists deep within the spirit of the laws. It is taught in schools and colleges, spread in the media, and above all and most dreadful, in Israel the racists do not know what they are doing and, because of this, feel in no way obliged to apologise. This absence of a need for self-justification has made Israel a particularly prized reference point for many movements of the far right throughout the world, movements whose past history of antisemitism is only too well known.

Quote
I am often ashamed of Israel, particularly when I witness evidence of its cruel military colonisation, with its weak and defenceless victims who are not part of the “chosen people”

Fascinating. It's like he is referring directly to Yaakov.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 17, 2014, 01:05:10 AM
What's the point of asking why if you don't change the law when the why becomes irrelevant?

Look at blood transfusions.  Why was it forbidden?  Because it could kill both of you since no one knew about needles or blood types and blood diseases.  Can we do it safely now?  Absolutely.  So the why has become irrelevant and thus the law needs to be changed.  But it never will.  Hence why Jews live in such a primitive time compared to Christians.

Ah, what? Maybe you are thinking of Jehovah's Witnesses? Jews take blood. I took 2 full transfusions a few years ago. And JWs don't refuse for the reasons you suggest. they refuse because God ordered that we are not to eat blood, and they take that order to the extreme of not taking blood into the body in ANY way. You need to get your facts straight, Dude.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 17, 2014, 01:27:10 AM
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/10/shlomo-sand-i-wish-to-cease-considering-myself-a-jew

Quote
I am aware of living in one of the most racist societies in the western world. Racism is present to some degree everywhere, but in Israel it exists deep within the spirit of the laws. It is taught in schools and colleges, spread in the media, and above all and most dreadful, in Israel the racists do not know what they are doing and, because of this, feel in no way obliged to apologise. This absence of a need for self-justification has made Israel a particularly prized reference point for many movements of the far right throughout the world, movements whose past history of antisemitism is only too well known.

Quote
I am often ashamed of Israel, particularly when I witness evidence of its cruel military colonisation, with its weak and defenceless victims who are not part of the “chosen people”

Fascinating. It's like he is referring directly to Yaakov.

Evidently, he is a very poorly educated Jew. I didn't even bother reading the whole article. The fact is, Israel doesn't colonise anything. There isn't a single Jew in all of Gaza. NOT ONE. So quit whining. 85% of Israeli Jews have been polled, and have made clear that they would love to have a "Palestinian" State living in security next to Israel,if it would bring peace, which is an opinion I clearly do not share, because I don't believe it would bring peace.

Anybody who lives in Israel and can still say the things this guy does is clearly a fucking schmuck. The only reason "Palestinians" don't have a State is because they don't want one. In 2001 Ehud Barak offered Arafat 96% of the West Bank, ALL of the Gaza Strip, AND Arab East Jerusalem for a capital. Arafat started the 2nd Intifada instead. "Palestinians" would rather kill Jews then govern themselves.

Israel LEFT the Gaza in 2005. Completely left it, with a functioning agricultural industry. Hamas came to power in '07 and promptly destroyed the agricultural industry to use its equipment for weapons. Israel allowed imports to the Gaza of cement and like materials to build schools and homes. Instead of doing either, they built tunnels into Israel to kidnap and kill Israelis.

So, no, this man has no credibility. He's a fucking schmuck who has his head so far up his own ass that he can taste his own breakfast when it comes out about teatime. I'm not impressed.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on October 17, 2014, 01:33:09 AM
People who disagree with me are evil
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 17, 2014, 01:36:57 AM
People who disagree with me are evil

Prove me wrong, or shut your pie-hole.

But my response will be later. I have Evening Prayer to get through yet.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 17, 2014, 01:43:25 AM
Evidently, he is a very poorly educated Jew. I didn't even bother reading the whole article. The fact is, Israel doesn't colonise anything. There isn't a single Jew in all of Gaza. NOT ONE. So quit whining. 85% of Israeli Jews have been polled, and have made clear that they would love to have a "Palestinian" State living in security next to Israel,if it would bring peace, which is an opinion I clearly do not share, because I don't believe it would bring peace.

Anybody who lives in Israel and can still say the things this guy does is clearly a fucking schmuck. The only reason "Palestinians" don't have a State is because they don't want one. In 2001 Ehud Barak offered Arafat 96% of the West Bank, ALL of the Gaza Strip, AND Arab East Jerusalem for a capital. Arafat started the 2nd Intifada instead. "Palestinians" would rather kill Jews then govern themselves.

Israel LEFT the Gaza in 2005. Completely left it, with a functioning agricultural industry. Hamas came to power in '07 and promptly destroyed the agricultural industry to use its equipment for weapons. Israel allowed imports to the Gaza of cement and like materials to build schools and homes. Instead of doing either, they built tunnels into Israel to kidnap and kill Israelis.

So, no, this man has no credibility. He's a fucking schmuck who has his head so far up his own ass that he can taste his own breakfast when it comes out about teatime. I'm not impressed.

Then why does a very well known philosopher sincerely believe that, after visiting Israel, what they're doing is much worse than Apartheid South Africa?

http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2014/8/8/noam_chomsky_what_israel_is_doing

Quote
Many reasons. Take, say, the term "apartheid." In the Occupied Territories, what Israel is doing is much worse than apartheid. To call it apartheid is a gift to Israel, at least if by "apartheid" you mean South African-style apartheid. What’s happening in the Occupied Territories is much worse. There’s a crucial difference. The South African Nationalists needed the black population. That was their workforce. It was 85 percent of the workforce of the population, and that was basically their workforce. They needed them. They had to sustain them. The bantustans were horrifying, but South Africa did try to sustain them. They didn’t put them on a diet. They tried to keep them strong enough to do the work that they needed for the country. They tried to get international support for the bantustans.

The Israeli relationship to the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories is totally different. They just don’t want them. They want them out, or at least in prison. And they’re acting that way. That’s a very striking difference, which means that the apartheid analogy, South African apartheid, to the Occupied Territories is just a gift to Israeli violence. It’s much worse than that. If you look inside Israel, there’s plenty of repression and discrimination. I’ve written about it extensively for decades. But it’s not apartheid. It’s bad, but it’s not apartheid. So the term, I just don’t think is applicable.

Quote
Israel has—Israeli experts have calculated in detail exactly how many calories, literally, Gazans need to survive. And if you look at the sanctions that they impose, they’re grotesque. I mean, even John Kerry condemned them bitterly. They’re sadistic. Just enough calories to survive. And, of course, it is partly metaphoric, because it means just enough material coming in through the tunnels so that they don’t totally die. Israel restricts medicines, but you have to allow a little trickle in. When I was there right before the November 2012 assault, visited the Khan Younis hospital, and the director showed us that there’s—they don’t even have simple medicines, but they have something. And the same is true with all aspects of it. Keep them on a diet, literally. And the reason is—very simple, and they pretty much said it: "If they die, it’s not going to look good for Israel. We may claim that we’re not the occupying power, but the rest of the world doesn’t agree. Even the United States doesn’t agree. We are the occupying power. And if we kill off the population under occupation, not going to look good." It’s not the 19th century, when, as the U.S. expanded over what’s its national territory, it pretty much exterminated the indigenous population. Well, by 19th century’s imperial standards, that was unproblematic. This is a little different today. You can’t exterminate the population in the territories that you occupy. That’s the dovish position, Weissglas. The hawkish position is Eiland, which you quoted: Let’s just kill them off.

It's a fascinating geopolitical situation.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 17, 2014, 02:36:02 AM
Well, your point is? Noam Chomsky is a self-hating Jew. Has been for years. He is a RADICAL leftist. And the argument "very well known philosopher" sounds like an Appeal to Authority to me. Not a very good approach to take. And yes, if you had people who have proven that they will kill you the moment they get a chance, I would put them on a diet too. I am aware of the accusation. I am also aware of how untrue MOST accusations like that are. Of course, Mr. Chomsky offers no evidence for his claims, but simply claims that this is occurring.

Telling me anything about John Kerry is irrelevant. Kerry is an idiot. He got us into this mess in the first place. The United States should be incinerating Arabs, not rebuilding fucking Gaza, for God's sake!

So, when Mr. Chomsky can back up what he is saying with cold hard numbers directly from Israeli Government figures (NOT the UN, which we have established is NOT a credible organisation, and should be abolished forthwith as an eminent threat to world peace), then MAYBE I'll take the time for a second look.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 17, 2014, 02:50:45 AM
Well, your point is? Noam Chomsky is a self-hating Jew. Has been for years. He is a RADICAL leftist. And the argument "very well known philosopher" sounds like an Appeal to Authority to me. Not a very good approach to take. And yes, if you had people who have proven that they will kill you the moment they get a chance, I would put them on a diet too. I am aware of the accusation. I am also aware of how untrue MOST accusations like that are. Of course, Mr. Chomsky offers no evidence for his claims, but simply claims that this is occurring.

Telling me anything about John Kerry is irrelevant. Kerry is an idiot. He got us into this mess in the first place. The United States should be incinerating Arabs, not rebuilding fucking Gaza, for God's sake!

So, when Mr. Chomsky can back up what he is saying with cold hard numbers directly from Israeli Government figures (NOT the UN, which we have established is NOT a credible organisation, and should be abolished forthwith as an eminent threat to world peace), then MAYBE I'll take the time for a second look.

So, that's your defense? Everyone who says bad things about Israel must be stupid because Israel is a shining beacon of perfection? Even worse, the only facts you'll accept are ones that come straight from Israel? Did you know courts ask defendants for a plea of guilty/not guilty and they normally plea not guilty? It is because people tend not to incriminate themselves.

I'm sorry, I thought I was having a rational discussion. I'll leave you to yourself, then.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 17, 2014, 02:56:22 AM
lol UN as a threat to world peace. That's a new level of wacko. The UN just loves throwing their military weight around.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 17, 2014, 03:14:15 AM
Well, your point is? Noam Chomsky is a self-hating Jew. Has been for years. He is a RADICAL leftist. And the argument "very well known philosopher" sounds like an Appeal to Authority to me. Not a very good approach to take. And yes, if you had people who have proven that they will kill you the moment they get a chance, I would put them on a diet too. I am aware of the accusation. I am also aware of how untrue MOST accusations like that are. Of course, Mr. Chomsky offers no evidence for his claims, but simply claims that this is occurring.

Telling me anything about John Kerry is irrelevant. Kerry is an idiot. He got us into this mess in the first place. The United States should be incinerating Arabs, not rebuilding fucking Gaza, for God's sake!

So, when Mr. Chomsky can back up what he is saying with cold hard numbers directly from Israeli Government figures (NOT the UN, which we have established is NOT a credible organisation, and should be abolished forthwith as an eminent threat to world peace), then MAYBE I'll take the time for a second look.

So, that's your defense? Everyone who says bad things about Israel must be stupid because Israel is a shining beacon of perfection? Even worse, the only facts you'll accept are ones that come straight from Israel? Did you know courts ask defendants for a plea of guilty/not guilty and they normally plea not guilty? It is because people tend not to incriminate themselves.

I'm sorry, I thought I was having a rational discussion. I'll leave you to yourself, then.

Well, lets see. Israel as an Occupying Power allows the Occupied to sue in its own Supreme Court. Try that in Tibet. Israel as an Occupying Power routinely reviews the actions of its military when they receive reports of malfeasance. See if that happens in Tibet. In the Occupied Territories, you can publicly criticise Israeli leaders. Try doing that in Tibet.

When there is  a war on, Hamas aims to kill civilians. The IDF tries to minimise civilian casualties with leaflet drops, phone calls, text messages, roof-knocking, etc.

Shall I go on?

lol UN as a threat to world peace. That's a new level of wacko. The UN just loves throwing their military weight around.

The UN is a threat to world peace because everybody wants to go through the fucking Security Council which can't get out of its own way, and through the joke of a human rights council (remember such laudatory members as China, Syria, Cuba, Saudi Arabia...) to get anything done. By then its too late. People are dead, and raped and God knows what else. The UN hasn't preserved the peace once in the last 30-40 years. All they have done is further inflamed situations. They must be abolished forthwith, and every person on their payroll who does not automatically agree should be arrested for crimes against the people.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on October 17, 2014, 03:34:20 AM
Well, lets see. Israel as an Occupying Power allows the Occupied to sue in its own Supreme Court.
Just out of curiosity, how many times has Israel lost one of these supreme court cases?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 17, 2014, 03:38:45 AM
You would not believe, but MANY times. I would direct you to the website of the Supreme Court of the State of Israel.

http://elyon1.court.gov.il/eng/home/index.html

I would say about half the time of the cases I've reviewed, the Government and/or military have lost.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 17, 2014, 03:47:06 AM
The UN is a threat to world peace because everybody wants to go through the fucking Security Council which can't get out of its own way, and through the joke of a human rights council (remember such laudatory members as China, Syria, Cuba, Saudi Arabia...) to get anything done. By then its too late. People are dead, and raped and God knows what else. The UN hasn't preserved the peace once in the last 30-40 years. All they have done is further inflamed situations. They must be abolished forthwith, and every person on their payroll who does not automatically agree should be arrested for crimes against the people.

Butt-frustrated that the UN told Israel to settle the fuck down when they decided to murder some more Palestinians.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 17, 2014, 03:51:47 AM
Not at all. Israel never listens to the UN. Nor should it. End of problem. And since Israel doesn't murder "Palestinians", but only takes their lives in self-fence, there can be no question who is at fault there. If you are too much of a fool to see that, it sounds like a personal problem. I personally recommend therapy, maybe after some good inpatient work to get you on some good meds.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 17, 2014, 04:12:58 AM
And since Israel doesn't murder "Palestinians", but only takes their lives in self-fence, there can be no question who is at fault there.

You would not believe, but MANY times. I would direct you to the website of the Supreme Court of the State of Israel.

http://elyon1.court.gov.il/eng/home/index.html

I would say about half the time of the cases I've reviewed, the Government and/or military have lost.

Not one of the cases you reviewed had to do with a wrongful death?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 17, 2014, 05:12:11 AM
Not at all. Israel never listens to the UN. Nor should it. End of problem.

Good thing I never said that then.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 17, 2014, 03:26:31 PM
What's the point of asking why if you don't change the law when the why becomes irrelevant?

Look at blood transfusions.  Why was it forbidden?  Because it could kill both of you since no one knew about needles or blood types and blood diseases.  Can we do it safely now?  Absolutely.  So the why has become irrelevant and thus the law needs to be changed.  But it never will.  Hence why Jews live in such a primitive time compared to Christians.

Ah, what? Maybe you are thinking of Jehovah's Witnesses? Jews take blood. I took 2 full transfusions a few years ago. And JWs don't refuse for the reasons you suggest. they refuse because God ordered that we are not to eat blood, and they take that order to the extreme of not taking blood into the body in ANY way. You need to get your facts straight, Dude.
My point still stands: what is the point of asking why if you don't change the law when the why is irrelevant?

Also, no evidence exists that Moses asked god why.  We know this because rabbi's have been debating it for centuries and Moses made no mention of reasons anywhere.

I'm sure there are more than a few outdated laws you have to follow.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 19, 2014, 03:42:17 AM
And since Israel doesn't murder "Palestinians", but only takes their lives in self-fence, there can be no question who is at fault there.

You would not believe, but MANY times. I would direct you to the website of the Supreme Court of the State of Israel.

http://elyon1.court.gov.il/eng/home/index.html

I would say about half the time of the cases I've reviewed, the Government and/or military have lost.

Not one of the cases you reviewed had to do with a wrongful death?

Actually, several of them did. I personally don't believe there is such a thing as a wrongful death when a soldier kills a "Palestinian" for throwing a potentially lethal rock or other projectile at him. But the Supreme Court does.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 19, 2014, 03:49:27 AM
What's the point of asking why if you don't change the law when the why becomes irrelevant?

Look at blood transfusions.  Why was it forbidden?  Because it could kill both of you since no one knew about needles or blood types and blood diseases.  Can we do it safely now?  Absolutely.  So the why has become irrelevant and thus the law needs to be changed.  But it never will.  Hence why Jews live in such a primitive time compared to Christians.

Ah, what? Maybe you are thinking of Jehovah's Witnesses? Jews take blood. I took 2 full transfusions a few years ago. And JWs don't refuse for the reasons you suggest. they refuse because God ordered that we are not to eat blood, and they take that order to the extreme of not taking blood into the body in ANY way. You need to get your facts straight, Dude.
My point still stands: what is the point of asking why if you don't change the law when the why is irrelevant?

Also, no evidence exists that Moses asked god why.  We know this because rabbi's have been debating it for centuries and Moses made no mention of reasons anywhere.

I'm sure there are more than a few outdated laws you have to follow.

As I expect you follow a few without even realising it. Someone sneezes, what do you say? A good atheist as you should say nothing. But, I'l bet you dollars to donuts you say "bless you." Not a divine law, granted, but I bet you follow it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on October 19, 2014, 04:17:32 AM
What's the point of asking why if you don't change the law when the why becomes irrelevant?

Look at blood transfusions.  Why was it forbidden?  Because it could kill both of you since no one knew about needles or blood types and blood diseases.  Can we do it safely now?  Absolutely.  So the why has become irrelevant and thus the law needs to be changed.  But it never will.  Hence why Jews live in such a primitive time compared to Christians.

Ah, what? Maybe you are thinking of Jehovah's Witnesses? Jews take blood. I took 2 full transfusions a few years ago. And JWs don't refuse for the reasons you suggest. they refuse because God ordered that we are not to eat blood, and they take that order to the extreme of not taking blood into the body in ANY way. You need to get your facts straight, Dude.
My point still stands: what is the point of asking why if you don't change the law when the why is irrelevant?

Also, no evidence exists that Moses asked god why.  We know this because rabbi's have been debating it for centuries and Moses made no mention of reasons anywhere.

I'm sure there are more than a few outdated laws you have to follow.

As I expect you follow a few without even realising it. Someone sneezes, what do you say? A good atheist as you should say nothing. But, I'l bet you dollars to donuts you say "bless you." Not a divine law, granted, but I bet you follow it.

He probably also says 'thank you' when someone does something for him. 'Bless you' does not have religious connotations anymore. It's just a standard phrase used by polite people. Politeness is not a religion.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 19, 2014, 04:23:49 AM
As I expect you follow a few without even realising it. Someone sneezes, what do you say? A good atheist as you should say nothing. But, I'l bet you dollars to donuts you say "bless you." Not a divine law, granted, but I bet you follow it.

The phrase most likely originated from paganism, not a particular religion, and especially not an Abrahamic one.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on October 19, 2014, 09:52:31 AM
But, I'l bet you dollars to donuts you say "bless you."
Depends on which language is appropriate for me to use.

In English, yes, because I've been taught that's the thing to say. It has nothing to do with religion.

In other languages, I'd say "for health"
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 19, 2014, 10:01:07 AM
The Finnish equivalent is "terveydeksi", which also translates to "for [your] health".
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 19, 2014, 11:43:13 AM
I never say anything when someone sneezes. I think it's a silly custom.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 19, 2014, 11:50:18 AM
What's the point of asking why if you don't change the law when the why becomes irrelevant?

Look at blood transfusions.  Why was it forbidden?  Because it could kill both of you since no one knew about needles or blood types and blood diseases.  Can we do it safely now?  Absolutely.  So the why has become irrelevant and thus the law needs to be changed.  But it never will.  Hence why Jews live in such a primitive time compared to Christians.

Ah, what? Maybe you are thinking of Jehovah's Witnesses? Jews take blood. I took 2 full transfusions a few years ago. And JWs don't refuse for the reasons you suggest. they refuse because God ordered that we are not to eat blood, and they take that order to the extreme of not taking blood into the body in ANY way. You need to get your facts straight, Dude.
My point still stands: what is the point of asking why if you don't change the law when the why is irrelevant?

Also, no evidence exists that Moses asked god why.  We know this because rabbi's have been debating it for centuries and Moses made no mention of reasons anywhere.

I'm sure there are more than a few outdated laws you have to follow.

As I expect you follow a few without even realising it. Someone sneezes, what do you say? A good atheist as you should say nothing. But, I'l bet you dollars to donuts you say "bless you." Not a divine law, granted, but I bet you follow it.
Then you best get me some Krispy Kreams because I do not say "bless you".  I've long since gotten myself out of that habit.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 19, 2014, 12:52:17 PM
So you've allowed atheism to overcome even common courtesy. What a nasty, rude little boy. :)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 19, 2014, 01:07:37 PM
So you've allowed atheism to overcome even common courtesy. What a nasty, rude little boy. :)
Tell me, what do you say when someone coughs?

Also, just because I don't say "bless you" does not mean I say nothing.  Don't be so limited in your thinking.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 19, 2014, 01:49:32 PM
And since Israel doesn't murder "Palestinians", but only takes their lives in self-fence, there can be no question who is at fault there.

You would not believe, but MANY times. I would direct you to the website of the Supreme Court of the State of Israel.

http://elyon1.court.gov.il/eng/home/index.html

I would say about half the time of the cases I've reviewed, the Government and/or military have lost.

Not one of the cases you reviewed had to do with a wrongful death?

Actually, several of them did. I personally don't believe there is such a thing as a wrongful death when a soldier kills a "Palestinian" for throwing a potentially lethal rock or other projectile at him. But the Supreme Court does.

So even Israel's own supreme court thinks the IDF unlawfully kills (read: murders) Palestinians and yet you maintain they don't. You look like a delusional Zionist at this point. Or more of one I suppose.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 20, 2014, 01:21:16 PM
A wrongful death does NOT automatically imply murder. It may imply that, or it may imply a lesser offence, such as manslaughter, or excessive use of force. You obviusly know little of the law.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on October 20, 2014, 02:12:10 PM
Is manslaughter not a type of murder charge?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 20, 2014, 02:30:22 PM
Is manslaughter not a type of murder charge?
Why, it is.  It's the lowest degree of murder.  But still murder.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 20, 2014, 03:17:28 PM
A wrongful death does NOT automatically imply murder. It may imply that, or it may imply a lesser offence, such as manslaughter, or excessive use of force. You obviusly know little of the law.

Shall we agree on culpable homicide then?  I can tell you this, if the killing was justified, and military gets a wide latitude on the term justification, then the court would not have found against them in all likelihood. 

You also get a lot of interesting results if you google IDF Court Martial.  Not necessarily relating to murders, but to other reprehensible actions.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 20, 2014, 03:19:14 PM
Is manslaughter not a type of murder charge?
Why, it is.  It's the lowest degree of murder.  But still murder.

The trick here is that these wrongful deaths are all civil suits and may not have any criminal charges associated with them.  Obviously the Israeli government would be loath to charge their soldiers with culpable homicide, but it is obvious that the Israeli judiciary does not see some of their killings as self-defense, or justified in any way. 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 20, 2014, 04:13:44 PM
And your points being? I am free to disagree with the judiciary in any way I wish. I merely pointed out that Israel can't be accused of being big bad colonisers when their own juduciary, rightly or wrongly, allows "Palestinians" recourse in the system. Frankly, I don't think it should. "Palestinians" are not citizens. They should be treated as occupied until such time as they can be deported from Greater Israel.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 20, 2014, 05:02:44 PM
And your points being? I am free to disagree with the judiciary in any way I wish. I merely pointed out that Israel can't be accused of being big bad colonisers when their own juduciary, rightly or wrongly, allows "Palestinians" recourse in the system. Frankly, I don't think it should. "Palestinians" are not citizens. They should be treated as occupied until such time as they can be deported from Greater Israel.
And the penalties of wrongful deaths are?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 20, 2014, 05:03:33 PM
And your points being? I am free to disagree with the judiciary in any way I wish.

That does not make your position justified.

Quote
I merely pointed out that Israel can't be accused of being big bad colonisers when their own juduciary, rightly or wrongly, allows "Palestinians" recourse in the system.

Just because you give recourse to your victims does not make the victimization any less real.

Quote
Frankly, I don't think it should. "Palestinians" are not citizens. They should be treated as occupied until such time as they can be deported from Greater Israel.

There are still proper and improper ways to treat people, and Israel far too frequently is on the wrong side of that line.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 20, 2014, 05:03:54 PM
And the penalties of wrongful deaths are?

Rightful death.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on October 20, 2014, 07:43:33 PM
[trigger warning: pro-semitism]

http://www.theonion.com/articles/nazi-ss-cemetery-desecrated-by-prosemitic-graffiti,520/
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 21, 2014, 12:42:19 PM
And your points being? I am free to disagree with the judiciary in any way I wish.

That does not make your position justified.

Quote
I merely pointed out that Israel can't be accused of being big bad colonisers when their own juduciary, rightly or wrongly, allows "Palestinians" recourse in the system.

Just because you give recourse to your victims does not make the victimization any less real.

Quote
Frankly, I don't think it should. "Palestinians" are not citizens. They should be treated as occupied until such time as they can be deported from Greater Israel.

There are still proper and improper ways to treat people, and Israel far too frequently is on the wrong side of that line.

And of course, the "Palestinians" are NEVER on the wrong side of that line when they launch rockets at civilians, dig tunnels with cement intended for schools and homes (said tunnels being used to kidnap and kill Israelis), use their own civilians as shields, etc. Shall I go on? And of course our govt. is stupid enough to want to rebuild Gaza, when in fact, we should be applauding Israel for eliminating it as a threat. And Israel itself is too damned soft for its own good. They are willing to attempt to make peace with an inveterate enemy who STILL, in their founding charter, calls for their destruction. There will be no peace so long as Hamas exists.

The fact is, and you can argue this all you want, "Palestinians" are one step up from lemurs, our closest relatives in the lesser primate world, which live only in Madagascar, or chimpanzees, our closest relatives in the greater primate world. They are lucky that they can even enunciate well enough to talk.

Lets face it. Even other Arabs despise them. They are considered the pond scum of the Arab world. In fact, if it weren't for the fact that this site has Censors, I would use another adjective that is more descriptive, but I think I would get a swift ban, so I shall avoid doing so.

That aside, other Arabs are disgusted by them. The Saudis are repulsed by them. The only reason they have friends in the Arab world at all is because the Jews exist, and the Arabs hate the Jews more than they hate the "Palestinians". In general, I would say that the pure Arabs may hate us, but they respect us more than they do the "Palestinians", at least in terms of our honour and dignity as human beings.

The pure Arabs from Arabia know full well that "Palestinians" are a mixed group of mongrels, partly Arab, and partly Canaanite. The Canaanites, if you read your Hebrew Bible (the "Old Testament" to you non-Jews), were a group of people who lived in the ancient land of Canaan (modern-day Eretz Israel) prior to the coming of the Israelites, and had absolutely savage religious practices that included human sacrifice, temple prostitution (both female and male), and other extremely vile activities. Their nations were destroyed by the Israelites upon their entry to Israel under Joshua and succeeding military leaders.

In fact, it is highly likely that "Palestinians" are descendants of Amalek, who is recorded in the Bible (which is a decent history book if nothing else, for you atheists out there) as having mercilessly attacked the Israelites on more than one occasion. In return, God gave the Hebrews a commandment to destroy every Amalekite from the earth, which, if they could be isolated today, would still be an active commandment. However, because the "Palestinians" are not Amalekites per se, being descended in part from them, and also from others, the commandment cannot be enforced on them as such. Deportation is sufficient.

But, back to my main point. Other Arabs know that "Palestinians" are descended largely from Canaanite trash, and then also from  Arabs. But they are largely Canaanite. And the Jews, however hated they may be by Arabs, are at least monotheists with some sense of honour, unlike Canaanites.

So, lets NOT pull any punches. I don't like Arabs in any form. I've never disputed that. But, and this is a big but, at least the Arabs from Arabia have some level of dignity. The "Palestinian" descendant of Canaanite filth has none. They are fit only to be hewers of wood and drawers of water, as the Bible puts it. This reference is later in the Prophets, where the Canaanites are also listed as the sons of Esau, Jacob's brother.

So, in my opinion, "Palestinians" can either leave, or be servants. Their choice. I don't care which one they make, personally.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 21, 2014, 01:50:43 PM

And of course, the "Palestinians" are NEVER on the wrong side of that line when they launch rockets at civilians, dig tunnels with cement intended for schools and homes (said tunnels being used to kidnap and kill Israelis), use their own civilians as shields, etc. Shall I go on?
No please.  This strawman should not continue!
Quote
And of course our govt. is stupid enough to want to rebuild Gaza, when in fact, we should be applauding Israel for eliminating it as a threat.
That's just because you are crazy though.
Quote
And Israel itself is too damned soft for its own good. They are willing to attempt to make peace with an inveterate enemy who STILL, in their founding charter, calls for their destruction.
It is scary that you think one of the most militaristic nations on the planet is too soft.
Quote
There will be no peace so long as Hamas exists.
Not with an attitude like that there won't.
Quote
The fact is, and you can argue this all you want, "Palestinians" are one step up from lemurs, our closest relatives in the lesser primate world, which live only in Madagascar, or chimpanzees, our closest relatives in the greater primate world. They are lucky that they can even enunciate well enough to talk.
Ok, please tell that to the KKK or whoever you associate with.
Quote
Lets face it. Even other Arabs despise them. They are considered the pond scum of the Arab world. In fact, if it weren't for the fact that this site has Censors, I would use another adjective that is more descriptive, but I think I would get a swift ban, so I shall avoid doing so.
I don't know why you keep using convivial bonding to lessen the blow of your awful bigotry.  You are not fooling anyone that you are holding a reasonable position.
Quote
That aside, other Arabs are disgusted by them. The Saudis are repulsed by them. The only reason they have friends in the Arab world at all is because the Jews exist, and the Arabs hate the Jews more than they hate the "Palestinians". In general, I would say that the pure Arabs may hate us, but they respect us more than they do the "Palestinians", at least in terms of our honour and dignity as human beings.
What's that?  Oh right.  Bigot.
Quote
The pure Arabs from Arabia know full well that "Palestinians" are a mixed group of mongrels, partly Arab, and partly Canaanite. The Canaanites, if you read your Hebrew Bible (the "Old Testament" to you non-Jews), were a group of people who lived in the ancient land of Canaan (modern-day Eretz Israel) prior to the coming of the Israelites, and had absolutely savage religious practices that included human sacrifice, temple prostitution (both female and male), and other extremely vile activities. Their nations were destroyed by the Israelites upon their entry to Israel under Joshua and succeeding military leaders.
The bible says so?  Oh well it must be true.  Nuke them!
Quote
In fact, it is highly likely that "Palestinians" are descendants of Amalek,citation required who is recorded in the Bible (which is a decent history book if nothing else, for you atheists out there) as having mercilessly attacked the Israelites on more than one occasion. In return, God gave the Hebrews a commandment to destroy every Amalekite from the earth, which, if they could be isolated today, would still be an active commandment. However, because the "Palestinians" are not Amalekites per se, being descended in part from them, and also from others, the commandment cannot be enforced on them as such. Deportation is sufficient.

But, back to my main point. Other Arabs know that "Palestinians" are descended largely from Canaanite trash, and then also from  Arabs. But they are largely Canaanite. And the Jews, however hated they may be by Arabs, are at least monotheists with some sense of honour, unlike Canaanites.

So, lets NOT pull any punches. I don't like Arabs in any form. I've never disputed that. But, and this is a big but, at least the Arabs from Arabia have some level of dignity. The "Palestinian" descendant of Canaanite filth has none. They are fit only to be hewers of wood and drawers of water, as the Bible puts it. This reference is later in the Prophets, where the Canaanites are also listed as the sons of Esau, Jacob's brother.

So, in my opinion, "Palestinians" can either leave, or be servants. Their choice. I don't care which one they make, personally.
Yes, we know you are an intolerant, cruel, vengeful and awful person.  Do you think it is related to being on diability in the American Mid-West?  I personally can imagine nothing more depressing.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 21, 2014, 04:09:48 PM

And of course, the "Palestinians" are NEVER on the wrong side of that line when they launch rockets at civilians, dig tunnels with cement intended for schools and homes (said tunnels being used to kidnap and kill Israelis), use their own civilians as shields, etc. Shall I go on?
No please.  This strawman should not continue!

It is not a straw man to state the truth.

Quote
And of course our govt. is stupid enough to want to rebuild Gaza, when in fact, we should be applauding Israel for eliminating it as a threat.
That's just because you are crazy though.

That is an ad hominem No response.
Quote
And Israel itself is too damned soft for its own good. They are willing to attempt to make peace with an inveterate enemy who STILL, in their founding charter, calls for their destruction.
It is scary that you think one of the most militaristic nations on the planet is too soft.

Israel is still attempting to make peace with people who want to destroy them. That is soft.

Quote
There will be no peace so long as Hamas exists.
Not with an attitude like that there won't.

Grow up.
Quote
The fact is, and you can argue this all you want, "Palestinians" are one step up from lemurs, our closest relatives in the lesser primate world, which live only in Madagascar, or chimpanzees, our closest relatives in the greater primate world. They are lucky that they can even enunciate well enough to talk.
Ok, please tell that to the KKK or whoever you associate with.

Since I am a Jew, I doubt the KKK would be overly fond of me.

Quote
Lets face it. Even other Arabs despise them. They are considered the pond scum of the Arab world. In fact, if it weren't for the fact that this site has Censors, I would use another adjective that is more descriptive, but I think I would get a swift ban, so I shall avoid doing so.
I don't know why you keep using convivial bonding to lessen the blow of your awful bigotry.  You are not fooling anyone that you are holding a reasonable position.

Ah, whatever.

Quote
That aside, other Arabs are disgusted by them. The Saudis are repulsed by them. The only reason they have friends in the Arab world at all is because the Jews exist, and the Arabs hate the Jews more than they hate the "Palestinians". In general, I would say that the pure Arabs may hate us, but they respect us more than they do the "Palestinians", at least in terms of our honour and dignity as human beings.
What's that?  Oh right.  Bigot.

Ad hominem.

Quote
The pure Arabs from Arabia know full well that "Palestinians" are a mixed group of mongrels, partly Arab, and partly Canaanite. The Canaanites, if you read your Hebrew Bible (the "Old Testament" to you non-Jews), were a group of people who lived in the ancient land of Canaan (modern-day Eretz Israel) prior to the coming of the Israelites, and had absolutely savage religious practices that included human sacrifice, temple prostitution (both female and male), and other extremely vile activities. Their nations were destroyed by the Israelites upon their entry to Israel under Joshua and succeeding military leaders.
The bible says so?  Oh well it must be true.  Nuke them!

Like I said, the Bible is a decent book of history, if nothing else.

Quote
In fact, it is highly likely that "Palestinians" are descendants of Amalek,citation required who is recorded in the Bible (which is a decent history book if nothing else, for you atheists out there) as having mercilessly attacked the Israelites on more than one occasion. In return, God gave the Hebrews a commandment to destroy every Amalekite from the earth, which, if they could be isolated today, would still be an active commandment. However, because the "Palestinians" are not Amalekites per se, being descended in part from them, and also from others, the commandment cannot be enforced on them as such. Deportation is sufficient.

But, back to my main point. Other Arabs know that "Palestinians" are descended largely from Canaanite trash, and then also from  Arabs. But they are largely Canaanite. And the Jews, however hated they may be by Arabs, are at least monotheists with some sense of honour, unlike Canaanites.

So, lets NOT pull any punches. I don't like Arabs in any form. I've never disputed that. But, and this is a big but, at least the Arabs from Arabia have some level of dignity. The "Palestinian" descendant of Canaanite filth has none. They are fit only to be hewers of wood and drawers of water, as the Bible puts it. This reference is later in the Prophets, where the Canaanites are also listed as the sons of Esau, Jacob's brother.

So, in my opinion, "Palestinians" can either leave, or be servants. Their choice. I don't care which one they make, personally.
Yes, we know you are an intolerant, cruel, vengeful and awful person.  Do you think it is related to being on diability in the American Mid-West?  I personally can imagine nothing more depressing.

The last was also an ad hominem. You are just full of them today, aren't you. Schmuck.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 21, 2014, 04:22:35 PM
Kettle, meet pot.

Also, if your God can say its OK to wipe out a culture, why is it not OK for their God to do the same?  Seems like a double standard.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 21, 2014, 06:47:07 PM

The last was also an ad hominem. You are just full of them today, aren't you. Schmuck.

There was not much to debate there.  Just a lot of things that you would not dare say in public.  What's a guy to do?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 22, 2014, 04:44:08 AM
Well, as I said, the Amalekites, since they are no longer identifiable as a group, can no longer be eliminated. IF the "Palestinians" are in fact descended from Amalekites, then they are only partially so. Now, "Palestinians" DO claim to be descended from the pre-Israelite Canaanites. Its a stupid claim to make, since that claim makes them fall under biblical ban, deserving of elimination. This is of course, what happened under Joshua and following military leaders. As I said, the biblical narrative is fairly accurate as far as its history goes, even if you reject the supernatural explanations given in it.

So, given the claims they make, they put themselves deliberately under the ban, probably so they can curry favour with the world. The Bible is admittedly a pretty brutal text, given that it was written in the Bronze Age. The Qur'an is just AS brutal, perhaps even moreso, which it has even less excuse to be, given that it was written much later, in the 600s of the Christian Era.

I know of no Jew, including myself, who calls for full-scale extermination of the so-called "Palestinian" people, even though that is EXACTLY what Hamas wants to do to us, and says so right in their charter. They want the absolute destruction of Israel. And a common Muslim (particularly "Palestinian") statement in the Middle East that every Jew has grown up hearing is, "First the Saturday People, then the Sunday People." Anybody who doesn't believe this is either naive, or a complete blithering idiot, one of the two (on this board, I suspect its the latter).

Again, complete elimination is not the goal of any sane person, and certainly not that of any Jew, including me. The harshest thing that any Jew would advocate, and this is what I personally advocate, is deportation from Greater Israel. It should be pointed out that 85% of Israeli Jews have stated that they WANT peace. They would accept a "Palestinian" State in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, living in peace and security beside Israel. Personally, I think this is naive, but this is what 85% of Israeli Jews have said. I am not speaking of Israeli Arabs here, Muslim, Christian, or Druze, but only Jews.

Do I think they are out of their mind? Yes. Now, with the end of Operation Protective Edge, what is the current percentage of Israeli Jews that favour an independent "Palestinian" State? I don't know. That poll was taken before the rockets started flying, which I'll note occurred BEFORE Israel invaded the Gaza Strip. Of course, the tunnel activity had been going on for months.

So, I suggest you all quit your fucking whining. I have never heard so much bitching and belly-aching in my life. Grow the fuck up, get a life, and get into the real world. Israel is here to stay. The "Palestinians" will never have a state of their own because they don't want one. They would rather kill Jews. And as long as they hate Jews more than they love their own children and the future they could provide for those children, those children will have no future beyond that of throwing rocks and getting shot at. Shit happens.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 22, 2014, 05:50:33 AM
But Israelites are also Canaanites.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 22, 2014, 10:13:00 AM
Ah, not exactly. Abraham came from Ur originally. They lived in Canaan some time, and down to Egypt they went. Then out of Egypt, back to Canaan to conquer the Land. You really think you can give me a run for my money about biblical history? I would reconsider that if I we're you. You might end up looking very stupid.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 22, 2014, 11:54:02 AM
Kettle, meet pot.

Also, if your God can say its OK to wipe out a culture, why is it not OK for their God to do the same?  Seems like a double standard.
cos there god doesn't real so herpy derp durr
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 22, 2014, 01:17:21 PM
Ah, not exatly. Abraham came from Ur originally. They lived in Canaan some time, and down to Egypt they went. Then out of Egypt, back to Canaan to conquer the Land. You really think you can give me a run for my money about biblical history? I would reconsider that if I we're you. You might end up looking very stupid.
So his children and grand children were canninites.  So basically all Jews.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 22, 2014, 01:30:54 PM
The point being that Jews did not share the paganism of the Canaanites, except when they BORROWED from the Canaanites, and fell under the ban of their own God, and suffered as a result. So, as long as the Hebrews remained faithful to the God of Abraham, they remained prosperous, and defeated the backward, primitive Canaanite tribes of land. That would include the ancestors of the "Palestinians".
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 23, 2014, 05:20:01 AM
Quote from: wikipedia
A century of research by archaeologists and Egyptologists has arguably found no evidence that can be directly related to the Exodus narrative of an Egyptian captivity and the escape and travels through the wilderness, leading to the suggestion that Iron Age Israel—the kingdoms of Judah and Israel—has its origins in Canaan, not Egypt:[6][7] The culture of the earliest Israelite settlements is Canaanite, their cult-objects are those of the Canaanite god El, the pottery remains in the local Canaanite tradition, and the alphabet used is early Canaanite. Almost the sole marker distinguishing the "Israelite" villages from Canaanite sites is an absence of pig bones, although whether this can be taken as an ethnic marker or is due to other factors remains a matter of dispute.

tl;dr early Jews were Canaanites
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 23, 2014, 05:54:29 AM
Yes, I read that myself. And it really depends on what you choose to believe. Either you can accept the VERY limited archaeological work that has been done, and which I believe will eventually be reversed with further work on the subject. There is almost NO evidence either way. The  "modern day liberal biblical scholars" seem to think that that is the last word on the matter. Note that the text says the following: I shall quote the entire thing, and mark in bold the aspects to which I point.

"A century of research by archaeologists and Egyptologists has ARGUABLY found no evidence that can be DIRECTLY related to the Exodus narrative of an Egyptian captivity and the escape and travels through the wilderness, leading to the SUGGESTION that Iron Age Israel—the kingdoms of Judah and Israel—has its origins in Canaan, not Egypt:[6][7] The culture of the earliest Israelite settlements is Canaanite, their cult-objects are those of the Canaanite god El, the pottery remains in the local Canaanite tradition, and the alphabet used is early Canaanite. Almost the sole marker distinguishing the "Israelite" villages from Canaanite sites is an absence of pig bones, although whether this can be taken as an ethnic marker or is due to other factors remains a matter of dispute."

Such words as "arguably" and "directly" and "suggestion" in no way demonstrate that you have a strong argument for a point of view!

Do observe the following, quoted from the Pocket Bible Handbook by Henry H. Halley, 18th Edition, 1948, Second Printing, 1950, p. 117.

"Chapter 5. Moses' First Demand on Pharaoh. Pharaoh was insolent. He ordered the taskmasters to lay heavier burdens on the Israelites,  requiring them to make the same number of bricks, and yet gather their own straw, 10-19. ARCHAEOLOGICAL NOTE: The Bricks of Pithom. Naville, 1883, and Kyle 1908, found and Pithom , the lower courses of brick filled with good chopped straw; the middle courses with less straw, which was stubble plucked up by the root; and that the upper courses were brick of pure clay having no straw whatever. What an amazing confirmation of the Exodus account!"

Although I find the author's Evangelicalism distasteful, and his emotionalism in the last sentence even moreso, he does have a valid point to make. So, it is quite clear that there are some things that don't add up in the overall archaeological record. We DON"T have all the information, and what we do have contradicts itself. So, until we have all that we need, I choose to accept the Torah account. I'll take Moses over incomplete, contradicting secular records any day.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 23, 2014, 06:07:18 AM
I'll take a flawed religious document over modern science. Makes perfect sense.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 23, 2014, 06:13:07 AM
As I indicated, "modern science" hasn't come to a conclusion. You  and your ancestors might swing from your tails, but I don't. What part of "contradictory conclusions" does your peabrain not understand? Seriously, did you get past the Third Grade academically in grammar school, or did they just feel sorry for you?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 23, 2014, 08:55:22 AM
Whether a conclusion has been reached or not is irrelevant. There is evidence suggesting early Jews were indigenous Canaanites. There is no evidence suggesting anything the Bible claims is true. Going with one because of personal predispositions is very retarted.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on October 23, 2014, 11:36:16 AM
Whether a conclusion has been reached or not is irrelevant. There is evidence suggesting early Jews were indigenous Canaanites. There is no evidence suggesting anything the Bible claims is true. Going with one because of personal predispositions is very retarted.

And there is cotradictory evidence saying they are not. Anyone who insists on one, deliberate misspelling of a word he knows to be wrong is  an idiot. Two, anyone anyone who reads into evidence, especially contradictory evidence, a thing which isn't there is a schmuck. The fact that Israelite stuff looks similar to Canaanite stuff is because they borrowed ideas from their neighbours even though they shouldn't have. God punished them harshly as a result. But tell me: who is the tard here? The one who who can't spell 'retarded' and takes uncertain "scholarship" for truth , or the one who actually uses his brain? I realise you haven't got one of those, but still... And I gave you evidence from as far back as 1950 that helped prove the Exodus case. So...
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 23, 2014, 01:41:00 PM
You spelt "truth" trth! Wat a retart.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 23, 2014, 01:50:29 PM
I won't dispute that I misspelled some stuff. But I was on phonernet (ie, Internet on the phone, that is hard to see, and harder to type because of the small size), which is easy to make mistakes on, vs a person deliberately misspelling things he knows to be incorrect.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 23, 2014, 01:53:30 PM
And I do find it interesting that I am the only person to be banned here even though I have been called a "retart" here by several persons. How is that less of an insult than anything I have said? Would someone please explain that to me?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 23, 2014, 01:56:49 PM
Your first mistake is thinking it's a misspelling of "retard", which it is not.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 23, 2014, 01:58:12 PM
Well, whatever it is, it is used the same way, so it might as well be.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 23, 2014, 02:00:19 PM
Fine. Vindictus and Rama Set, please refrain from calling people retarted. You have been warmed.

That oughta do it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 23, 2014, 02:03:23 PM
Actually, no, that doesn't really do it. They should be banned. But then, to be fair, I guess that since I am still here, albeit as Yonah, as long as they obey the warning, then I should be happy. Fair enough.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 23, 2014, 02:04:16 PM
No, people get warned before they get banned. You have already been banned, so you don't get warnings.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 23, 2014, 02:09:17 PM
As often as they have been calling me "retarted", they should have gotten about six or seven warnings by now. But don't worry about it. Its no big deal. I'm still here, and life goes on.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on October 23, 2014, 02:43:23 PM
Anyone who insists on one, deliberate misspelling of a word he knows to be wrong is  an idiot.
What does it say about someone who refuses to acknowledge and go with a running gag?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 23, 2014, 02:46:00 PM
What does it say about someone who refuses to acknowledge and go with a running gag?

That doesn't apply to Yaakov. He is doing pretty well at following a running gag that has been going for thousands of years.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 23, 2014, 03:02:53 PM
It says that "running gags" have no place in intellectual conversation. Such things are base, and should be avoided between persons who wish to be classified as able to hold conversation above the level of children. I have no patience with such things outside the bathroom or other such places where they belong. In this case it is not potty-talk, admittedly. But it is talk fit only for the mental hospital where one tries to keep things light-hearted so one does NOT go stark raving crazy. It might also be talk fit for the elementary school, or possibly for the Special Education Room, again, where one also does not want to go completely crazy due to behavioural disorders.

And although I sound critical, I have the right to be. I have been in mental hospitals, as a patient, and have no shame about admitting it. When it comes down to admitting it, guess what, people? Shit happens in life. I was there due to mood disorders, rather than intellectual or low IQ issues, or things of that nature, but still...

In fact, my IQ is EXTREMELY high,as I am sure some of yours are. But along with that frequently comes the Autism, the Bipolar Disorder 1, the Psychotic Features, and all the bullshit that that stuff comes along with. Before you start being treated for it, you usually go through years of shall we say, "self-treatment". In my case, that was severe alcoholism, downing HUGE amounts of hard liquor, to the point that now I can't even smell the stuff without wanting it. I am fine with being around beer and wine, but the hard stuff...

So, no, I don't like the "running gag" juvenile bullshit that should be avoided in adult conversations unless you are trying to keep things light. We are attempting (at I thought we were) to have an intellectual conversation. If I am incorrect about that, perhaps I should be informed now. At least I shall then know what to expect and not to expect from the discussion. And no, to answer the invariable question, I haven't been psychotic in over six years, and that diagnosis has now been removed from my chart. The others do remain.

IRUSH, you follow a running gag that speaks volumes just in terms of your abilities, or rather, the lack thereof, to communicate. The difference between you and me is that the Jews will be here long after you and your ilk have disappeared from the history books and been forgotten about. I think I have done very well in this thread of making atheists look rather foolish, actually, especially given that it has been me against about six of you. Its pretty bad when six can't win against one. Well, keep trying. Its entertaining for me. And gives me something to do when I am not otherwise occupied...
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 23, 2014, 03:49:26 PM
That you think a discussion necessitates a winner and a loser be designated seems oddly defensive.

Furthermore, your attitude would lead me to ask again, do you think you will be rewarded in any way for your behavior during your life?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on October 23, 2014, 03:58:23 PM
It says that "running gags" have no place in intellectual conversation.
???  You're looking for an intellectual conversation on a web site that contends that there is a word wide conspiracy to hide the fact that the earth is flat?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 23, 2014, 04:01:54 PM
Being a cunt towards gentiles is always rewarding
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 23, 2014, 04:21:34 PM
That you think a discussion necessitates a winner and a loser be designated seems oddly defensive.

Furthermore, your attitude would lead me to ask again, do you think you will be rewarded in any way for your behavior during your life?

Even the question is absurd when speaking to a Jew. That is NOT how we conceive of Observance. A Jew is Observant by virtue of the fact that God told him to be. Whether there is reward in the end is beside the point. There are some Jews who don't believe in the Afterlife at all, and yet, they are as Observant as any other Jew. Why? Because God in the Torah commanded that they be so. Whether I personally believe in the Afterlife is, as I said, also irrelevant. Whether I do or do not in no way changes the fact that I am obligated by God to be Observant. And for you to ask the question implies two things. One, it implies that you do not comprehend Judaism in the slightest, but are trying to think of it in Christian terms, which is a catastrophically foolish mistake. Two, it implies that you would invade my personal privacy on the subject in a manner that is thoroughly rude and disrespectful. The reason it is disrespectful is that you do it with malicious motives. I am not a fool. I know full well that you ask with intentions of making me look the fool. Either way I answer you will attempt (granted, unsuccessfully, but nevertheless) to come up with a shot below the belt.

So, suffice it to say that a Jew follows Torah because he is expected to. His belief in the Afterlife or lack thereof is beside the point. The majority of Jews do believe in such, but even their beliefs about the Afterlife are not monolithic. Some believe in a Paradise at Judgement Day (I have discussed this before), some believe in reincarnation, some believe in other ideas, and some don't believe in the Afterlife at all.

I would encourage you, if you are interested, to go online, and Google the concept "Jewish views of the Afterlife". There are some good resources there. What my views happen to be are my own personal business. But suffice it to say that they have no bearing on the fact that I follow Torah. I do it irrespective of the concept of reward or lack thereof. I follow Torah because I am a Jew. God gave us a Covenant, and we agreed to it. We do our part, he does his. The eternal consequences of this are irrelevant. It is what happens in THIS world, in my life, and in the life of all the House of Israel, that matters, both now, and in future generations.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: garygreen on October 23, 2014, 05:00:16 PM
Just to be sure I have this correctly: the measure of your intelligence is your willingness to follow the prescriptions of an ancient text merely because the authors claim to have been inspired by God?  That's the thing that you think demonstrates your intellectual superiority over the rest of the people on this forum?

I mean, at least Christians and Muslims and whatnot are all acting as they do for rational incentives like eternal reward.  Their logic is valid even if it isn't sound.  Your rationale for obeying the prescriptions of the Torah appears to stop at "because it tells me to."   
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 23, 2014, 05:15:28 PM
Just to be sure I have this correctly: the measure of your intelligence is your willingness to follow the prescriptions of an ancient text merely because the authors claim to have been inspired by God?  That's the thing that you think demonstrates your intellectual superiority over the rest of the people on this forum?

I mean, at least Christians and Muslims and whatnot are all acting as they do for rational incentives like eternal reward.  Their logic is valid even if it isn't sound.  Your rationale for obeying the prescriptions of the Torah appears to stop at "because it tells me to."

Wow. Very rarely have I seen a person totally fail to comprehend logic. I never said there wasn't reward involved. It just isn't the kind of reward that most people, including you, would recognise. We are Jews. We saw God on Mt. Sinai. Its not that Moses claimed to be inspired. Its that we know that 2 million people, our ancestors, saw God, and heard him speak. And no, I am not about to get into that argument with you about that so don't even go there. It is in both our written and oral history, so there you are.

We know we have a Covenant with God. Said Covenant promises certain responses from the Deity if we do X. If we do X, he does Y. But if you read the Torah, there is no reference to an Afterlife. X and Y are all things that occur in this life. Now, the later Prophets and Writings do refer to what could be construed as an Afterlife. Or not, depending on interpretation.

I choose not to tell you what my interpretation is. I have one, I assure you. But it doesn't matter what it is. I would still study and follow Torah even if I didn't. Just the fact that God created us and provides for all our needs, and has seen fit to bless my life is enough for me to know that following Torah is a good idea. I have deeply personal reasons for saying that, which I shall not discuss here, but there you are.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on October 23, 2014, 05:21:28 PM
What is an example of a reward God gives you for following his commandments?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 23, 2014, 05:24:28 PM
Again, that is a question I choose not to answer.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on October 23, 2014, 05:44:14 PM
I just ask wondering if a nonfollower of his commandments received the same rewards.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 23, 2014, 05:47:00 PM
Again, that is a question I choose not to answer.

Why, though? Do you believe that admitting you either do or don't expect a reward for your deeds to be a sin in and of itself? You keep telling me to look up things about other Jews, but I'm asking you, specifically. I don't care what other Jews think inside this thread.

I'm genuinely curious as to whether you adhere to a belief of any type of reward and that includes the aversion of punishment.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 23, 2014, 06:41:03 PM
I just ask wondering if a nonfollower of his commandments received the same rewards.

A non-Jew is not obligated to follow the 613 Commandments of the Torah, but only the Seven Laws of Noah, which are:

The prohibition of idolatry.
The prohibition of murder.
The prohibition of theft.
The prohibition of sexual immorality.
The prohibition of blasphemy.
The prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive.
The requirement of maintaining courts to provide legal recourse.

Again, that is a question I choose not to answer.

Why, though? Do you believe that admitting you either do or don't expect a reward for your deeds to be a sin in and of itself? You keep telling me to look up things about other Jews, but I'm asking you, specifically. I don't care what other Jews think inside this thread.

I'm genuinely curious as to whether you adhere to a belief of any type of reward and that includes the aversion of punishment.

And, to be frank, I am not a performing animal here to satisfy your curiosity like an elephant in the circus might do. You want that, go to Barnum and Bailey. The purpose of this thread is to answer genuine questions about Jews and what they believe, how they pray, and how they live. Although I am prepared to use my life in certain ways as a pattern thereof, I choose not to in this instance when I know that the reason you ask the question is to draw me deeper into your perverted little dance with denial of God and all that is holy and pure. I shall NOT participate in your little game, nor help you maintain it.

So, again I answer the question generally. Jews, including me, do not obey the commandments out of fear of Hell or hope of reward. No Jew I have ever met (and that includes me) ever believed in Hell. Now mind you, that does not exclude the possibility of divine punishment, but not in Christian terms of eternal torment. And although many (perhaps most) Jews do believe in ultimate Paradise, there are certainly many who don't. That includes the reincarnational Jews, and the the ones who don't believe in an Afterlife at all. And ALL of us still believe that the 613 Commandments must be followed (at least those that can be, in the absence of a Temple).
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 23, 2014, 06:45:11 PM
Any non-Jew who follows the Laws of Noah is capable of attaining a place in the World to Come (Paradise) if such a place there be.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 23, 2014, 07:02:01 PM
And, to be frank, I am not a performing animal here to satisfy your curiosity like an elephant in the circus might do. You want that, go to Barnum and Bailey. The purpose of this thread is to answer genuine questions about Jews and what they believe, how they pray, and how they live. Although I am prepared to use my life in certain ways as a pattern thereof, I choose not to in this instance when I know that the reason you ask the question is to draw me deeper into your perverted little dance with denial of God and all that is holy and pure. I shall NOT participate in your little game, nor help you maintain it.

I didn't force you to make this thread. I didn't come from nowhere to bother you. You made a thread for people to ask a Jew questions, not ask questions about Jews. I think it is intellectually disheartening for you to sidestep such a simple issue; that is, that you may have ulterior motives for doing what you do.

I personally think that most religious people are in fact terribly selfish and do what they do out of fear of not receiving some sort of reward for their service. Some reconcile death by pretending it doesn't exist. Until you are willing to state otherwise it is highly probable that you also ascribe to some barbaric belief that you are a special chosen snowflake that will never die.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on October 23, 2014, 07:48:57 PM
Holy fuck, don't do that shit.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 23, 2014, 08:15:43 PM
I'm not going to encourage your escapades of making obnoxiously huge text (by not reading it). I'm just going to go ahead and assume you didn't answer the question and just started prattling on about some strawman. Might as well just change the subject.

How many Nobel prizes have you won?

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 23, 2014, 08:23:48 PM
I'm not going to encourage your escapades of making obnoxiously huge text (by not reading it). I'm just going to go ahead and assume you didn't answer the question and just started prattling on about some strawman. Might as well just change the subject.

How many Nobel prizes have you won?

I apologise for the obnoxiously large text. I didn't realise that is what it would look like! Here follows in smaller print:

Let's cut to the chase here. What you personally think is not the point. While I find that all too often, I agree with you in terms of why Christians and Muslims do what they do, again, it isn't the point. It's not for me, or you, to judge that. I don't believe that selfishness has anything to do with it, actually. I believe that its the opposite of that for many people. Many don't want to leave their loved ones alone. That is something I understand. I neither want to leave alone nor be left alone, although it is unavoidable for obvious reasons.

Suggesting that unless I satisfy your morbid sense of curiosity that I must be barbaric is simply an ad hominem and makes you look the fool. Furthermore, even assuming I DO hold such a belief (and I am not saying I do or do not), the holding thereof does not make me or the belief barbaric. Nor does the not holding of it make me or the contrary belief enlightened.

As far as being Chosen, I DO believe that Jews are the Chosen People, but that does NOT translate into Life After Death, which is a whole different argument. We were Chosen by God to bring ethical monotheism to the world. Whether we live on in some way after we die is another matter altogether.

There is no doubt that death exists. I have never heard any Jew suggest otherwise. Even those who believe in Olam haBa (Life in the World to Come) admit that. There is a distinctive change.We go from point to point. The first stop would be Sheol, where we are neither happy or sad, and where we remain until Judgement Day when we are admitted to Paradise. That is what most Jews believe, but certainly not all. Some believe in Reincarnational ideas. Some reject Olam haBa all together. Some have even yet other ideas.  Me? I choose to keep my beliefs personal. But, I do believe that when a man dies, there is a distinctive change between what we are here, and anything that might occur or not occur afterward.There is a qualitative difference.

Humans are a nasty, brutish little species. We do horrid things to each other, and we call ourselves good. Before we can even BEGIN to talk about Olam haBa for ANY of us, we have a world to repair (Tikkun Olam). I don't even like discussing what happens after we die. Such a discussion of necessity detracts from pressing responsibilities here. Until we can learn how to get along without doing vicious and mean things to our friends here, let alone our non-friends (ie, everybody else, those we don't know, along with those we don't like), we've got no business even discussing reward and punishment.

After all? Why do we seek to please God? Is it because God is God, and deserves our love, or is it because we selfishly think that we deserve something from him? The fundamental fact is this:

God created us, and the world, and the universe, and all that is therein because he WANTED to. He certainly had no reason to   have to. He doesn't need us. God would be perfectly just to snuff us all out with a breath from his metaphorical nostrils. As far as Paradise goes, if such there is, it would be perfectly just to deny it to all of us, even Moses. NONE of us deserve it, no, not one.

So what does this mean? It means that since we are here by God's own good grace, we are supposed to extend that good grace to as many others as we are able. Instead of doing mean and horrible things to one another, we need to find a way to treat our friends with some level of kindness and respect. Maybe then we can start worrying about reward and punishment. As Gandhi said of fighting the British: "Do we fight to change things, or do we fight to punish? I've found we're all such sinners we should leave punishment to God."

And further, the traditional Catholic prayer, "Oh my God, I am heartily sorry, for having offended thee. And I detest all my sins, because of thy just punishment, BUT MOST OF ALL, because I have offended thee, my God, who art all good, and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of thy grace, to sin no more, and to avoid the near occasions of sin. Amen." Do note that it puts greater emphasis on the fact that the reason the penitent is sorry is primarily because God is all good and deserving of all love. The punishment question is secondary.

Granted, Jews don't put even that much emphasis on punishment. In fact, we put far less on it. I put virtually none at all. But ultimately, any Jew will probably give you similar answers, no matter what his answers might be to what happens to him at death are. The only difference between me and him is that I choose NOT to answer that question, because I distrust your motives in asking it, as well as for the fact that I believe the question to be irrelevant and to pale in importance with what is truly important, namely, what I pointed out above.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 23, 2014, 08:28:14 PM
Whether a conclusion has been reached or not is irrelevant. There is evidence suggesting early Jews were indigenous Canaanites. There is no evidence suggesting anything the Bible claims is true. Going with one because of personal predispositions is very retarted.

And there is cotradictory evidence saying they are not. Anyone who insists on one, deliberate misspelling of a word he knows to be wrong is  an idiot. Two, anyone anyone who reads into evidence, especially contradictory evidence, a thing which isn't there is a schmuck. The fact that Israelite stuff looks similar to Canaanite stuff is because they borrowed ideas from their neighbours even though they shouldn't have. God punished them harshly as a result. But tell me: who is the tard here? The one who who can't spell 'retarded' and takes uncertain "scholarship" for truth , or the one who actually uses his brain? I realise you haven't got one of those, but still... And I gave you evidence from as far back as 1950 that helped prove the Exodus case. So...

None in support of the Bible though. eg. Contradicting evolution does not prove Creationism.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 23, 2014, 08:37:01 PM
Yes, I read that myself. And it really depends on what you choose to believe. Either you can accept the VERY limited archaeological work that has been done, and which I believe will eventually be reversed with further work on the subject. There is almost NO evidence either way. The  "modern day liberal biblical scholars" seem to think that that is the last word on the matter. Note that the text says the following: I shall quote the entire thing, and mark in bold the aspects to which I point.

"A century of research by archaeologists and Egyptologists has ARGUABLY found no evidence that can be DIRECTLY related to the Exodus narrative of an Egyptian captivity and the escape and travels through the wilderness, leading to the SUGGESTION that Iron Age Israel—the kingdoms of Judah and Israel—has its origins in Canaan, not Egypt:[6][7] The culture of the earliest Israelite settlements is Canaanite, their cult-objects are those of the Canaanite god El, the pottery remains in the local Canaanite tradition, and the alphabet used is early Canaanite. Almost the sole marker distinguishing the "Israelite" villages from Canaanite sites is an absence of pig bones, although whether this can be taken as an ethnic marker or is due to other factors remains a matter of dispute."

Such words as "arguably" and "directly" and "suggestion" in no way demonstrate that you have a strong argument for a point of view!

Do observe the following, quoted from the Pocket Bible Handbook by Henry H. Halley, 18th Edition, 1948, Second Printing, 1950, p. 117.

"Chapter 5. Moses' First Demand on Pharaoh. Pharaoh was insolent. He ordered the taskmasters to lay heavier burdens on the Israelites,  requiring them to make the same number of bricks, and yet gather their own straw, 10-19. ARCHAEOLOGICAL NOTE: The Bricks of Pithom. Naville, 1883, and Kyle 1908, found and Pithom , the lower courses of brick filled with good chopped straw; the middle courses with less straw, which was stubble plucked up by the root; and that the upper courses were brick of pure clay having no straw whatever. What an amazing confirmation of the Exodus account!"

Although I find the author's Evangelicalism distasteful, and his emotionalism in the last sentence even moreso, he does have a valid point to make. So, it is quite clear that there are some things that don't add up in the overall archaeological record. We DON"T have all the information, and what we do have contradicts itself. So, until we have all that we need, I choose to accept the Torah account. I'll take Moses over incomplete, contradicting secular records any day.

I regret having to quote myself, but apparently, you are a bit blind, hopefully by accident, rather than willfully. As far back as 1950, there was evidence in support of Exodus. And changing the subject to Genesis will not help you. Losing the argument on Exodus and then going to Genesis is NOT a good tactic. Shall we move on, now that you have been proved to be obviously out of your league?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on October 23, 2014, 08:41:18 PM
You keep dancing around the matter.  Do you receive a reward for following God's commandments?  Is it possible for a nonbeliever to receive a a similar reward without following his commandment, whatever commandments nonJews are required to follow?

Also, it's been found that one of the leading archaeologists trying to prove Exodus faked his proof and no one else has really come up with much proof since.  You can argue that absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, but a lot of things point to it never occurring.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 23, 2014, 08:45:49 PM
Suggesting that unless I satisfy your morbid sense of curiosity that I must be barbaric is simply an ad hominem and makes you look the fool. Furthermore, even assuming I DO hold such a belief (and I am not saying I do or do not), the holding thereof does not make me or the belief barbaric. Nor does the not holding of it make me or the contrary belief enlightened.

It is barbaric, though. "If I follow these laws, I receive unimaginable rewards after I die" is something someone is either extremely selfish or brainwashed to believe. It's not the result of someone who values their current (and only) life.

As far as being Chosen, I DO believe that Jews are the Chosen People, but that does NOT translate into Life After Death, which is a whole different argument. We were Chosen by God to bring ethical monotheism to the world. Whether we live on in some way after we die is another matter altogether.

Narcissism.

There is no doubt that death exists. I have never heard any Jew suggest otherwise. Even those who believe in Olam haBa (Life in the World to Come) admit that. There is a distinctive change.We go from point to point. The first stop would be Sheol, where we are neither happy or sad, and where we remain until Judgement Day when we are admitted to Paradise. That is what most Jews believe, but certainly not all. Some believe in Reincarnational ideas. Some reject Olam haBa all together. Some have even yet other ideas.  Me? I choose to keep my beliefs personal. But, I do believe that when a man dies, there is a distinctive change between what we are here, and anything that might occur or not occur afterward.There is a qualitative difference.

Except for those people, death is a temporary annoyance. They don't consider that they will truly be dead/nonexistent. They simply view death as "I get to be happy and not deal with crappy ol' earth anymore." It is a terribly pessimistic view of life.

Humans are a nasty, brutish little species. We do horrid things to each other, and we call ourselves good. Before we can even BEGIN to talk about Olam haBa for ANY of us, we have a world to repair (Tikkun Olam). I don't even like discussing what happens after we die. Such a discussion of necessity detracts from pressing responsibilities here. Until we can learn how to get along without doing vicious and mean things to our friends here, let alone our non-friends (ie, everybody else, those we don't know, along with those we don't like), we've got no business even discussing reward and punishment.

This is also a very pessimistic view of life. There are very few truly awful people in the world. They probably think they're chosen people, too.

After all? Why do we seek to please God? Is it because God is God, and deserves our love, or is it because we selfishly think that we deserve something from him?

God created us, and the world, and the universe, and all that is therein because he WANTED to. He certainly had no reason to   have to. He doesn't need us. God would be perfectly just to snuff us all out with a breath from his metaphorical nostrils. As far as Paradise goes, if such there is, it would be perfectly just to deny it to all of us, even Moses. NONE of us deserve it, no, not one.

This is double plus Stockholm syndrome. If I kidnapped you and your family, you would be entirely dependent on my gifts to you. Food, water, clothing, etc. I bequeath anything you have to you. Imagine you turning around and saying I deserve your love but you deserve nothing from me. Sounds sort of psychotic, doesn't it?

So what does this mean? It means that since we are here by God's own good grace, we are supposed to extend that good grace to as many others as we are able. Instead of doing mean and horrible things to one another, we need to find a way to treat our friends with some level of kindness and respect. Maybe then we can start worrying about reward and punishment. As Gandhi said of fighting the British: "Do we fight to change things, or do we fight to punish? I've found we're all such sinners we should leave punishment to God."

You are so far away from Gandhi I'm surprised you can even read any of his statements without your brain having an aneurism.

Granted, Jews don't put even that much emphasis on punishment. In fact, we put far less on it. I put virtually none at all. But ultimately, any Jew will probably give you similar answers, no matter what his answers might be to what happens to him at death are. The only difference between me and him is that I choose NOT to answer that question, because I distrust your motives in asking it, as well as for the fact that I believe the question to be irrelevant and to pale in importance with what is truly important, namely, what I pointed out above.[/size]

The lack of a reward can be considered a punishment. If I have three kids and only give one a gift, then I'm playing favorites, and by extent I am punishing two of them with a lack of gifts.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 23, 2014, 09:04:36 PM
why is e?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 23, 2014, 09:44:34 PM
You keep dancing around the matter.  Do you receive a reward for following God's commandments?  Is it possible for a nonbeliever to receive a a similar reward without following his commandment, whatever commandments nonJews are required to follow?

Also, it's been found that one of the leading archaeologists trying to prove Exodus faked his proof and no one else has really come up with much proof since.  You can argue that absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, but a lot of things point to it never occurring.

I've already indicated what Laws non-Jews are expected to follow, and that obedience to such renders them to be as righteous as any Jew. Of course, you don't know the name of the scientist.

Suggesting that unless I satisfy your morbid sense of curiosity that I must be barbaric is simply an ad hominem and makes you look the fool. Furthermore, even assuming I DO hold such a belief (and I am not saying I do or do not), the holding thereof does not make me or the belief barbaric. Nor does the not holding of it make me or the contrary belief enlightened.

It is barbaric, though. "If I follow these laws, I receive unimaginable rewards after I die" is something someone is either extremely selfish or brainwashed to believe. It's not the result of someone who values their current (and only) life.

You of course don't know its the only and current life, you simply assume that.

As far as being Chosen, I DO believe that Jews are the Chosen People, but that does NOT translate into Life After Death, which is a whole different argument. We were Chosen by God to bring ethical monotheism to the world. Whether we live on in some way after we die is another matter altogether.

Narcissism.

In your uninformed, irrelevant opinion.

There is no doubt that death exists. I have never heard any Jew suggest otherwise. Even those who believe in Olam haBa (Life in the World to Come) admit that. There is a distinctive change.We go from point to point. The first stop would be Sheol, where we are neither happy or sad, and where we remain until Judgement Day when we are admitted to Paradise. That is what most Jews believe, but certainly not all. Some believe in Reincarnational ideas. Some reject Olam haBa all together. Some have even yet other ideas.  Me? I choose to keep my beliefs personal. But, I do believe that when a man dies, there is a distinctive change between what we are here, and anything that might occur or not occur afterward.There is a qualitative difference.

Except for those people, death is a temporary annoyance. They don't consider that they will truly be dead/nonexistent. They simply view death as "I get to be happy and not deal with crappy ol' earth anymore." It is a terribly pessimistic view of life.

Again, in your uninformed, irrelevant opinion.

Humans are a nasty, brutish little species. We do horrid things to each other, and we call ourselves good. Before we can even BEGIN to talk about Olam haBa for ANY of us, we have a world to repair (Tikkun Olam). I don't even like discussing what happens after we die. Such a discussion of necessity detracts from pressing responsibilities here. Until we can learn how to get along without doing vicious and mean things to our friends here, let alone our non-friends (ie, everybody else, those we don't know, along with those we don't like), we've got no business even discussing reward and punishment.

This is also a very pessimistic view of life. There are very few truly awful people in the world. They probably think they're chosen people, too.

Lets be blunt. There may not be too many truly awful, Hitler-like persons in the world. That means life kind of sucks, since not-too-awful persons can do some truly awful shit to people.

After all? Why do we seek to please God? Is it because God is God, and deserves our love, or is it because we selfishly think that we deserve something from him?

God created us, and the world, and the universe, and all that is therein because he WANTED to. He certainly had no reason to   have to. He doesn't need us. God would be perfectly just to snuff us all out with a breath from his metaphorical nostrils. As far as Paradise goes, if such there is, it would be perfectly just to deny it to all of us, even Moses. NONE of us deserve it, no, not one.

This is double plus Stockholm syndrome. If I kidnapped you and your family, you would be entirely dependent on my gifts to you. Food, water, clothing, etc. I bequeath anything you have to you. Imagine you turning around and saying I deserve your love but you deserve nothing from me. Sounds sort of psychotic, doesn't it?

The comparison is illogical in the extreme. Comparing a kidnapper with the Creator makes no sense. A child looks to his parent for love. This is a far cry from what a kidnapper demands from the kidnappee (to coin a word).

So what does this mean? It means that since we are here by God's own good grace, we are supposed to extend that good grace to as many others as we are able. Instead of doing mean and horrible things to one another, we need to find a way to treat our friends with some level of kindness and respect. Maybe then we can start worrying about reward and punishment. As Gandhi said of fighting the British: "Do we fight to change things, or do we fight to punish? I've found we're all such sinners we should leave punishment to God."

You are so far away from Gandhi I'm surprised you can even read any of his statements without your brain having an aneurism.

That is just a stupid response. Especially since Gandhi, however admirable, was hardly a saint. He was on record as having a racist attitude toward Black Africans, and actually took non-violence so far as to recommend that Jews in the camps commit collective suicide.

Granted, Jews don't put even that much emphasis on punishment. In fact, we put far less on it. I put virtually none at all. But ultimately, any Jew will probably give you similar answers, no matter what his answers might be to what happens to him at death are. The only difference between me and him is that I choose NOT to answer that question, because I distrust your motives in asking it, as well as for the fact that I believe the question to be irrelevant and to pale in importance with what is truly important, namely, what I pointed out above.[/size]

The lack of a reward can be considered a punishment. If I have three kids and only give one a gift, then I'm playing favorites, and by extent I am punishing two of them with a lack of gifts.

Irrelevant.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: garygreen on October 23, 2014, 09:52:33 PM
We saw God on Mt. Sinai. Its not that Moses claimed to be inspired. Its that we know that 2 million people, our ancestors, saw God, and heard him speak. And no, I am not about to get into that argument with you about that so don't even go there. It is in both our written and oral history, so there you are.

To be fair, "we" didn't see anything.  You're not a member of the group of people who claimed to have seen God.  Those people have been dead for some time now.

You say that you know that your ancestors saw God and heard him speak.  How?  Because the Torah says so?  You seem to be taking for granted that because it is in your oral and written history that it must be true.  I don't dispute that it's in your written and oral history.  I dispute that you have any way at all to verify the truth of the claim of the author of the text.

So what does this mean? It means that since we are here by God's own good grace, we are supposed to extend that good grace to as many others as we are able. Instead of doing mean and horrible things to one another, we need to find a way to treat our friends with some level of kindness and respect. Maybe then we can start worrying about reward and punishment. As Gandhi said of fighting the British: "Do we fight to change things, or do we fight to punish? I've found we're all such sinners we should leave punishment to God."

This is an odd thing to say for someone who routinely advocates the use of violence and force against a group of people he labels as subhumans.  I guess you don't think Arabs are worthy of God's grace, love, kindness, or respect.  How Godly of you.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 23, 2014, 09:57:14 PM
We saw God on Mt. Sinai. Its not that Moses claimed to be inspired. Its that we know that 2 million people, our ancestors, saw God, and heard him speak. And no, I am not about to get into that argument with you about that so don't even go there. It is in both our written and oral history, so there you are.

To be fair, "we" didn't see anything.  You're not a member of the group of people who claimed to have seen God.  Those people have been dead for some time now.

You say that you know that your ancestors saw God and heard him speak.  How?  Because the Torah says so?  You seem to be taking for granted that because it is in your oral and written history that it must be true.  I don't dispute that it's in your written and oral history.  I dispute that you have any way at all to verify the truth of the claim of the author of the text.

Perhaps you are willing to gainsay the word of 2 million persons, but I am not.

So what does this mean? It means that since we are here by God's own good grace, we are supposed to extend that good grace to as many others as we are able. Instead of doing mean and horrible things to one another, we need to find a way to treat our friends with some level of kindness and respect. Maybe then we can start worrying about reward and punishment. As Gandhi said of fighting the British: "Do we fight to change things, or do we fight to punish? I've found we're all such sinners we should leave punishment to God."

This is an odd thing to say for someone who routinely advocates the use of violence and force against a group of people he labels as subhumans.  I guess you don't think Arabs are worthy of God's grace, love, kindness, or respect.  How Godly of you.

I would be more than happy to extend them the hand of grace, love, kindness and respect if I didn't know that they would rip my hand off and eat it while I watched. But so far, that is what Arabs, particularly "Palestinians" have done EVERY time the State of Israel in particular, and Jews in general, have tried. Doing something the same way every time and expecting different results IS the definition of stupid. Jews are many things good and bad alike, but we are not stupid. I happen to like both of my hands, thank you.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 23, 2014, 10:00:42 PM
I'm getting a pretty strong sense that you believe you'll be rewarded with an afterlife for doing menial things such as declining to eat bacon.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 23, 2014, 10:01:05 PM
We are Jews. We saw God on Mt. Sinai. Its not that Moses claimed to be inspired. Its that we know that 2 million people, our ancestors, saw God, and heard him speak.

Quote
20:16 And they said unto Moses: 'Speak thou with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die.'
How does 2 million people hear God yet also claim that if they hear God, they'll die?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 23, 2014, 10:09:57 PM
I'm getting a pretty strong sense that you believe you'll be rewarded with an afterlife for doing menial things such as declining to eat bacon.

Actually, even assuming I believe in an Afterlife, and I don't say that I do, whether I eat bacon or not is not going to determine the eternal future of a person.

We are Jews. We saw God on Mt. Sinai. Its not that Moses claimed to be inspired. Its that we know that 2 million people, our ancestors, saw God, and heard him speak.

Quote
20:16 And they said unto Moses: 'Speak thou with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die.'
How does 2 million people hear God yet also claim that if they hear God, they'll die?

Read the text completely. They did indeed hear the voice of God.

"19:8 And all the people answered together, and said: 'All that the Lord hath spoken we will do.' And Moses reported the words of the people unto the Lord. 9 And the Lord said unto Moses: 'Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and may also believe thee for ever.' And Moses told the words of the people unto the Lord.

19:10 And the Lord said unto Moses: 'Go unto the people, and sanctify them to-day and to-morrow, and let them wash their garments,

19:11 and be ready against the third day; for the third day the Lord will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.

19:12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying: Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it; whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death;

19:13 no hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live; when the ram's horn soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.'

19:14 And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their garments.

19:15 And he said unto the people: 'Be ready against the third day; come not near a woman.' 16 And it came to pass on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunders and lightnings and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of a horn exceeding loud; and all the people that were in the camp trembled.

19:17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.

19:18 Now mount Sinai was altogether on smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire; and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.

19:19 And when the voice of the horn waxed louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him by a voice."

Later, you are correct that the people were afraid that if God spoke to them, they would die. One can imagine that they were terrified at hearing the voice of God. I think most reasonable people would be.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 23, 2014, 10:26:01 PM
1. If you don't die from the first thing God says, why would you be afraid of hearing more?  What, does God's voice do only kill you if you listen to it too long?

2. Please highlight where God spoke to everyone.  I see where God replied to Moses, but no mention that everyone heard it.  God CAN speak to one person in a crowd and not have anyone else hear it you know.

3. 19:20 And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, to the top of the mount; and the Lord called Moses to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.

What, no mention of what God said when he spoke to Moses?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 23, 2014, 10:33:46 PM
1. If you don't die from the first thing God says, why would you be afraid of hearing more?  What, does God's voice do only kill you if you listen to it too long?

I am not so sure they would ACTUALLY die, but only that they THOUGHT they would.

2. Please highlight where God spoke to everyone.  I see where God replied to Moses, but no mention that everyone heard it.  God CAN speak to one person in a crowd and not have anyone else hear it you know.

"19:8 And all the people answered together, and said: 'All that the Lord hath spoken we will do.' And Moses reported the words of the people unto the Lord. 9 And the Lord said unto Moses: 'Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and may also believe thee for ever.' And Moses told the words of the people unto the Lord... 19:19 And when the voice of the horn waxed louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him by a voice."

I think it is understood by both Jewish and Christian authorities that God first said that the people would hear him speak to Moses, and then he spoke to Moses, and the people heard him.

3. 19:20 And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, to the top of the mount; and the Lord called Moses to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.

What, no mention of what God said when he spoke to Moses?

I'm not so sure that that was the relevant part. I think it was more relevant that he did speak. I mean, the Torah is FULL of what God said to Moses. Does it really matter what he said that particular instant?

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 23, 2014, 10:43:42 PM
1. If you don't die from the first thing God says, why would you be afraid of hearing more?  What, does God's voice do only kill you if you listen to it too long?
I am not so sure they would ACTUALLY die, but only that they THOUGHT they would.



2. Please highlight where God spoke to everyone.  I see where God replied to Moses, but no mention that everyone heard it.  God CAN speak to one person in a crowd and not have anyone else hear it you know.
Quote
"19:8 And all the people answered together, and said: 'All that the Lord hath spoken we will do.' And Moses reported the words of the people unto the Lord. 9 And the Lord said unto Moses: 'Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and may also believe thee for ever.' And Moses told the words of the people unto the Lord... 19:19 And when the voice of the horn waxed louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him by a voice."

I think it is understood by both Jewish and Christian authorities that God first said that the people would hear him speak to Moses, and then he spoke to Moses, and the people heard him.
Saying what he will do then not having even a reaction to the words God said to the 2 million people (they didn't want to hear him speak) is rather odd.

Quote
3. 19:20 And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, to the top of the mount; and the Lord called Moses to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.

What, no mention of what God said when he spoke to Moses?
I'm not so sure that that was the relevant part. I think it was more relevant that he did speak. I mean, the Torah is FULL of what God said to Moses. Does it really matter what he said that particular instant?
Does it matter what the first words the Jews heard God speak is?  Umm.... yeah.  Kinda a lot actually.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on October 23, 2014, 10:51:14 PM
You keep dancing around the matter.  Do you receive a reward for following God's commandments?  Is it possible for a nonbeliever to receive a a similar reward without following his commandment, whatever commandments nonJews are required to follow?

Also, it's been found that one of the leading archaeologists trying to prove Exodus faked his proof and no one else has really come up with much proof since.  You can argue that absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, but a lot of things point to it never occurring.

I've already indicated what Laws non-Jews are expected to follow, and that obedience to such renders them to be as righteous as any Jew. Of course, you don't know the name of the scientist.
The name is Ron Wyatt, I couldn't remember his name because it's useless information which can be looked up in 5 minutes.
You mentioned that eating bacon won't determine someone's access to Paradise, then why follow that commandment if it's pointless?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 23, 2014, 11:02:16 PM
You keep dancing around the matter.  Do you receive a reward for following God's commandments?  Is it possible for a nonbeliever to receive a a similar reward without following his commandment, whatever commandments nonJews are required to follow?

Also, it's been found that one of the leading archaeologists trying to prove Exodus faked his proof and no one else has really come up with much proof since.  You can argue that absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, but a lot of things point to it never occurring.

I've already indicated what Laws non-Jews are expected to follow, and that obedience to such renders them to be as righteous as any Jew. Of course, you don't know the name of the scientist.
The name is Ron Wyatt, I couldn't remember his name because it's useless information which can be looked up in 5 minutes.
You mentioned that eating bacon won't determine someone's access to Paradise, then why follow that commandment if it's pointless?
Because he's a mindless drone to God.  As he said: Because God said so.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 23, 2014, 11:23:17 PM
An interesting article on the state of modern Expdus scholarship. Particularly Yaakov, pay attention to the orthodox scholar who says you would have to be crazy to accept the 2,000,000 Exodites number.

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/doubtingexodus.htm
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 23, 2014, 11:35:40 PM
1. If you don't die from the first thing God says, why would you be afraid of hearing more?  What, does God's voice do only kill you if you listen to it too long?
I am not so sure they would ACTUALLY die, but only that they THOUGHT they would.



2. Please highlight where God spoke to everyone.  I see where God replied to Moses, but no mention that everyone heard it.  God CAN speak to one person in a crowd and not have anyone else hear it you know.
Quote
"19:8 And all the people answered together, and said: 'All that the Lord hath spoken we will do.' And Moses reported the words of the people unto the Lord. 9 And the Lord said unto Moses: 'Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and may also believe thee for ever.' And Moses told the words of the people unto the Lord... 19:19 And when the voice of the horn waxed louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him by a voice."

I think it is understood by both Jewish and Christian authorities that God first said that the people would hear him speak to Moses, and then he spoke to Moses, and the people heard him.
Saying what he will do then not having even a reaction to the words God said to the 2 million people (they didn't want to hear him speak) is rather odd.

Remember. God spoke TO Moses. The others heard the voice. But he SPOKE to Moses. They may not have heard what he actually said.

Quote
3. 19:20 And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, to the top of the mount; and the Lord called Moses to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.

What, no mention of what God said when he spoke to Moses?
I'm not so sure that that was the relevant part. I think it was more relevant that he did speak. I mean, the Torah is FULL of what God said to Moses. Does it really matter what he said that particular instant?
Does it matter what the first words the Jews heard God speak is?  Umm.... yeah.  Kinda a lot actually.

See above.

You keep dancing around the matter.  Do you receive a reward for following God's commandments?  Is it possible for a nonbeliever to receive a a similar reward without following his commandment, whatever commandments nonJews are required to follow?

Also, it's been found that one of the leading archaeologists trying to prove Exodus faked his proof and no one else has really come up with much proof since.  You can argue that absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, but a lot of things point to it never occurring.

I've already indicated what Laws non-Jews are expected to follow, and that obedience to such renders them to be as righteous as any Jew. Of course, you don't know the name of the scientist.
The name is Ron Wyatt, I couldn't remember his name because it's useless information which can be looked up in 5 minutes.

Well, the names of the men I quoted were not that, so, carry on.

You mentioned that eating bacon won't determine someone's access to Paradise, then why follow that commandment if it's pointless?

I never said it was pointless. I merely said that in and of itself, it is not enough to make or break one's eternal existence, if such there be.

An interesting article on the state of modern Expdus scholarship. Particularly Yaakov, pay attention to the orthodox scholar who says you would have to be crazy to accept the 2,000,000 Exodites number.

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/doubtingexodus.htm

I have certainly heard the dispute over the number of people who left Egypt. I personally am uncertain what to think of the number. At present I use the figure "2 million" rather loosely, for any number up to 2 million, but I have resources on my computer that question the number as well. I am prepared to accept the number provisionally, until convinced otherwise.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 23, 2014, 11:41:31 PM
An interesting article on the state of modern Expdus scholarship. Particularly Yaakov, pay attention to the orthodox scholar who says you would have to be crazy to accept the 2,000,000 Exodites number.

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/doubtingexodus.htm

Aside from the basic question of the number of people, the rest of the article was bilge, the result of "modern day liberal biblical scholarship". Like most of that sort of thing, it has no validity whatsoever. Even the question of the number needs to be asked very cautiously. That is why I am still prepared to accept the 2 million number, unless convinced otherwise.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 23, 2014, 11:44:02 PM
An interesting article on the state of modern Expdus scholarship. Particularly Yaakov, pay attention to the orthodox scholar who says you would have to be crazy to accept the 2,000,000 Exodites number.

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/doubtingexodus.htm

Aside from the basic question of the number of people, the rest of the article was bilge, the result of "modern day liberal biblical scholarship". Like most of that sort of thing, it has no validity whatsoever. Even the question of the number needs to be asked very cautiously. That is why I am still prepared to accept the 2 million number, unless convinced otherwise.

Care to elaborate?  Also, learn to quote properly.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 23, 2014, 11:56:05 PM
An interesting article on the state of modern Expdus scholarship. Particularly Yaakov, pay attention to the orthodox scholar who says you would have to be crazy to accept the 2,000,000 Exodites number.

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/doubtingexodus.htm

Aside from the basic question of the number of people, the rest of the article was bilge, the result of "modern day liberal biblical scholarship". Like most of that sort of thing, it has no validity whatsoever. Even the question of the number needs to be asked very cautiously. That is why I am still prepared to accept the 2 million number, unless convinced otherwise.

Care to elaborate?  Also, learn to quote properly.

How many times does one HAVE to elaborate? in 56 pages, I think I've elaborated enough. Modern day liberal so-called "biblical scholarship" attempts to treat the Bible as an ordinary book. It can't be done. The book itself makes certain truth claims about itself. Either those claims are true or they are false. It is that simple. If they are true, then Judaism is a religion that is inspired of God, divinely approved of, and guided rightly. If the truth claims are false, then why are we doing this? We happen to belong to one of the most hated groups on Earth. If the Bible is NOT true, then why are we risking our necks?

If the Bible is true, then the whole world should be Jewish and Noahide. For example, either Jesus is or is NOT the messiah. He can't be both. Either Mohammed is or is not a Prophet. He can't be both. I actually respect other religions that make claims to universalism. I don't agree with them, but at least they are honest.

Just because I think Jesus is NOT the messiah doesn't mean I have to be nasty to a Christian. I don't mind Christians. I am married to one. We don't often talk about religion, and we choose to respect each other's choice. We are not having children, so there are no worries about how to raise them.

But ultimately, it comes back to the Jewish Bible. Either the book's truth claims are right or they are wrong. They can't be analysed from a human perspective, because the book makes divine claims for itself. It is that simple. To compare, it would be like me, an historian, trying to evaluate the work of a mathematics professor. I am not equipped for the task, nor could I ever be. Its out of my paygrade. So there you are.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 24, 2014, 12:22:30 AM
Remember. God spoke TO Moses. The others heard the voice. But he SPOKE to Moses. They may not have heard what he actually said.

Hold on a sec... You said:

However, you couldn't imitate the voice of God such that 2 million people could all hear it. That would be hard to do even today, let alone then.

So let me get this straight:
God spoke from a mountain and everyone heard him speak but only Moses could hear what he said?

You do know that God would have to speak more than just a whisper right?  Or was Moses so far away from everyone that the loud, echoing thunder of God's Voice was unintelligable as words?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 24, 2014, 12:26:38 AM
Remember. God spoke TO Moses. The others heard the voice. But he SPOKE to Moses. They may not have heard what he actually said.

Hold on a sec... You said:

However, you couldn't imitate the voice of God such that 2 million people could all hear it. That would be hard to do even today, let alone then.

So let me get this straight:
God spoke from a mountain and everyone heard him speak but only Moses could hear what he said?

You do know that God would have to speak more than just a whisper right?  Or was Moses so far away from everyone that the loud, echoing thunder of God's Voice was unintelligable as words?

I don't know. I am only able to know what the Torah tells me, since I was not personally in attendance on that day. Would that I could have been, but, oh well. Shit happens. Essentially, all we need to know is that God spoke to Moses, and the people heard his voice. What he said or why he said it is irrelevant to me, and should be to any rational person.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 24, 2014, 12:30:39 AM
An interesting article on the state of modern Expdus scholarship. Particularly Yaakov, pay attention to the orthodox scholar who says you would have to be crazy to accept the 2,000,000 Exodites number.

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/doubtingexodus.htm

Aside from the basic question of the number of people, the rest of the article was bilge, the result of "modern day liberal biblical scholarship". Like most of that sort of thing, it has no validity whatsoever. Even the question of the number needs to be asked very cautiously. That is why I am still prepared to accept the 2 million number, unless convinced otherwise.

Care to elaborate?  Also, learn to quote properly.

How many times does one HAVE to elaborate? in 56 pages, I think I've elaborated enough. Modern day liberal so-called "biblical scholarship" attempts to treat the Bible as an ordinary book. It can't be done. The book itself makes certain truth claims about itself. Either those claims are true or they are false. It is that simple. If they are true, then Judaism is a religion that is inspired of God, divinely approved of, and guided rightly. If the truth claims are false, then why are we doing this? We happen to belong to one of the most hated groups on Earth. If the Bible is NOT true, then why are we risking our necks?

If the Bible is true, then the whole world should be Jewish and Noahide. For example, either Jesus is or is NOT the messiah. He can't be both. Either Mohammed is or is not a Prophet. He can't be both. I actually respect other religions that make claims to universalism. I don't agree with them, but at least they are honest.

Just because I think Jesus is NOT the messiah doesn't mean I have to be nasty to a Christian. I don't mind Christians. I am married to one. We don't often talk about religion, and we choose to respect each other's choice. We are not having children, so there are no worries about how to raise them.

But ultimately, it comes back to the Jewish Bible. Either the book's truth claims are right or they are wrong. They can't be analysed from a human perspective, because the book makes divine claims for itself. It is that simple. To compare, it would be like me, an historian, trying to evaluate the work of a mathematics professor. I am not equipped for the task, nor could I ever be. Its out of my paygrade. So there you are.

To say it is beyond your pay grade is to have your conclusion as a premise.

1. The bible is either divinely inspired or it is not.
2. Because the book claims to be divinely inspired I do not have the expertise to tell otherwise.

C. The bible is divinely inspired.

This is basically what you are saying and it is utterly flawed. I can most definitely make some assessments about the divinity of the bible. Something supernatural should be obvious merely by its complete disconnection from the natural.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 24, 2014, 12:32:21 AM
Remember. God spoke TO Moses. The others heard the voice. But he SPOKE to Moses. They may not have heard what he actually said.

Hold on a sec... You said:

However, you couldn't imitate the voice of God such that 2 million people could all hear it. That would be hard to do even today, let alone then.

So let me get this straight:
God spoke from a mountain and everyone heard him speak but only Moses could hear what he said?

You do know that God would have to speak more than just a whisper right?  Or was Moses so far away from everyone that the loud, echoing thunder of God's Voice was unintelligable as words?

I don't know. I am only able to know what the Torah tells me, since I was not personally in attendance on that day. Would that I could have been, but, oh well. Shit happens. Essentially, all we need to know is that God spoke to Moses, and the people heard his voice. What he said or why he said it is irrelevant to me, and should be to any rational person.

So if God said: go forth and rape all the babies with razor blades, your position is that that would be irrelevant?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 24, 2014, 12:33:34 AM
Remember. God spoke TO Moses. The others heard the voice. But he SPOKE to Moses. They may not have heard what he actually said.

Hold on a sec... You said:

However, you couldn't imitate the voice of God such that 2 million people could all hear it. That would be hard to do even today, let alone then.

So let me get this straight:
God spoke from a mountain and everyone heard him speak but only Moses could hear what he said?

You do know that God would have to speak more than just a whisper right?  Or was Moses so far away from everyone that the loud, echoing thunder of God's Voice was unintelligable as words?

I don't know. I am only able to know what the Torah tells me, since I was not personally in attendance on that day. Would that I could have been, but, oh well. Shit happens. Essentially, all we need to know is that God spoke to Moses, and the people heard his voice. What he said or why he said it is irrelevant to me, and should be to any rational person.
No, a rational person would start to question the validity of the book they're reading.  This is a plot hole man and if it's factual, it shouldn't HAVE plot holes.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 24, 2014, 12:42:25 AM



To say it is beyond your pay grade is to have your conclusion as a premise.

1. The bible is either divinely inspired or it is not.
2. Because the book claims to be divinely inspired I do not have the expertise to tell otherwise.

C. The bible is divinely inspired.

This is basically what you are saying and it is utterly flawed. I can most definitely make some assessments about the divinity of the bible. Something supernatural should be obvious merely by its complete disconnection from the natural.

Something supernatural might not be obvious. For example, if one is a Christian (I am not), Jesus was supernatural, but he certainly did not appear to be for some 30 years of his life.

Remember. God spoke TO Moses. The others heard the voice. But he SPOKE to Moses. They may not have heard what he actually said.

Hold on a sec... You said:

However, you couldn't imitate the voice of God such that 2 million people could all hear it. That would be hard to do even today, let alone then.

So let me get this straight:
God spoke from a mountain and everyone heard him speak but only Moses could hear what he said?

You do know that God would have to speak more than just a whisper right?  Or was Moses so far away from everyone that the loud, echoing thunder of God's Voice was unintelligable as words?

I don't know. I am only able to know what the Torah tells me, since I was not personally in attendance on that day. Would that I could have been, but, oh well. Shit happens. Essentially, all we need to know is that God spoke to Moses, and the people heard his voice. What he said or why he said it is irrelevant to me, and should be to any rational person.

So if God said: go forth and rape all the babies with razor blades, your position is that that would be irrelevant?

One with a brain realises that the creator does not recommend raping babies with razor blades, even though I'll admit the Bronze Age could be brutal, but still not that brutal.

Remember. God spoke TO Moses. The others heard the voice. But he SPOKE to Moses. They may not have heard what he actually said.

Hold on a sec... You said:

However, you couldn't imitate the voice of God such that 2 million people could all hear it. That would be hard to do even today, let alone then.

So let me get this straight:
God spoke from a mountain and everyone heard him speak but only Moses could hear what he said?

You do know that God would have to speak more than just a whisper right?  Or was Moses so far away from everyone that the loud, echoing thunder of God's Voice was unintelligable as words?

I don't know. I am only able to know what the Torah tells me, since I was not personally in attendance on that day. Would that I could have been, but, oh well. Shit happens. Essentially, all we need to know is that God spoke to Moses, and the people heard his voice. What he said or why he said it is irrelevant to me, and should be to any rational person.
No, a rational person would start to question the validity of the book they're reading.  This is a plot hole man and if it's factual, it shouldn't HAVE plot holes.

That simply makes no sense. If God was speaking to Moses, there would be no reason for the 2 million people to hear what he said. Since the message was not intended for them all to hear, why would you assume they would all hear it. You and I are having a discussion in this thread. Do you therefore assume that EVERY SINGLE PERSON in this website is going to be privy to what we are saying to each other?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 24, 2014, 12:43:26 AM
Jesus Christ you need to learn how to quote. Enter your response below the [/quote] tag.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 24, 2014, 12:45:28 AM
Jesus Christ you need to learn how to quote. Enter your response below the
tag.
[/quote]

Yes, that did get a little complicated. My apologies.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 24, 2014, 12:49:00 AM
Jesus had an angel announce his birth from a virgin. Three magi followed a star on God's command to witness it. What about that could be mistaken for natural?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 24, 2014, 12:50:11 AM
No, a rational person would start to question the validity of the book they're reading.  This is a plot hole man and if it's factual, it shouldn't HAVE plot holes.

That simply makes no sense. If God was speaking to Moses, there would be no reason for the 2 million people to hear what he said. Since the message was not intended for them all to hear, why would you assume they would all hear it. You and I are having a discussion in this thread. Do you therefore assume that EVERY SINGLE PERSON in this website is going to be privy to what we are saying to each other?
If they didn't hear what God said, how did they hear God speak?

Also:
Your analogy sucks.  All 2 million people WERE THERE TO HEAR GOD!  Not everyone on this website wants to hear what we have to say but guess what: they could.  Every single one of them could visit this thread and see what we say.

You are literally proving that God did NOT speak to all 2 million Jews.  You realize that right?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 24, 2014, 12:53:45 AM
The Creator turned a city to salt along with its inhabitants and called for the genocide of all current and future Amalekites, babies included. He also, just to prove a point watched with interest as Abraham almost murdered his son then at the last minute, after Abe had all but done the deed, and no doubt felt the cruel irony of the act, says "kidding!"

I am not sure why you think him above terrible, reprehensible commandments, for I cannot see it myself.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on October 24, 2014, 12:54:42 AM
Jesus Christ you need to learn how to quote. Enter your response below the [/quote] tag.

Yes, that did get a little complicated. My apologies.
Vindictus, lrn2nobbc

Yakkov, lrn2bbcode (http://www.bbcode.org/reference.php)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 24, 2014, 01:10:33 AM
Jesus had an angel announce his birth from a virgin. Three magi followed a star on God's command to witness it. What about that could be mistaken for natural?

Yes, but from the age of 12-30, he was a carpenter in his father's shop and lived such an uneventful life that no one even bothered to record it. The same appears to have been true of his life from age 8 days to 12 years.

No, a rational person would start to question the validity of the book they're reading.  This is a plot hole man and if it's factual, it shouldn't HAVE plot holes.

That simply makes no sense. If God was speaking to Moses, there would be no reason for the 2 million people to hear what he said. Since the message was not intended for them all to hear, why would you assume they would all hear it. You and I are having a discussion in this thread. Do you therefore assume that EVERY SINGLE PERSON in this website is going to be privy to what we are saying to each other?
If they didn't hear what God said, how did they hear God speak?

Also:
Your analogy sucks.  All 2 million people WERE THERE TO HEAR GOD!  Not everyone on this website wants to hear what we have to say but guess what: they could.  Every single one of them could visit this thread and see what we say.

You are literally proving that God did NOT speak to all 2 million Jews.  You realize that right?

I hear people speak every day without hearing exactly what they say. In a crowd of 2 million people? Think about it! If I am on a busy street corner in any American Midwestern city of your choice (I'll pick Omaha, just because I don't live there, but I have been there), and I just stand there, and watch and listen to people, I will hear plenty of people speak. But in many, perhaps even most, cases, I won't hear exactly what they say to each other, or anything of what they say, for that matter.

Now, assuming the crowd of 2 million was dead fucking silent, and it probably was, that still doesn't imply that everybody heard what the Lord said. Some of them might have, and most probably would not have. And remember, MOSES was writing this shit down. No one else was. These were former slaves. I expect they didn't know how to read or write any language. In fact, one wonders what language they even spoke? Hebrew? Egyptian? A bastardised version of both? And what did God speak to Moses? Hebrew? Egyptian? I expect Hebrew. Could the people even UNDERSTAND what God said to Moses? Moses was a learned man, having been raised as a Prince of Egypt. The others? Not so much. The Levites probably had more knowledge than the others, but how much, as slaves?

So there are so many variables involved in this subject that you can hardly come up with a straightforward answer. And anyone who tries to just proves themselves to be a schmuck. And I say that knowing that it applies to either side of the argument.

The Creator turned a city to salt along with its inhabitants and called for the genocide of all current and future Amalekites, babies included. He also, just to prove a point watched with interest as Abraham almost murdered his son then at the last minute, after Abe had all but done the deed, and no doubt felt the cruel irony of the act, says "kidding!"

I am not sure why you think him above terrible, reprehensible commandments, for I cannot see it myself.

I don't see that turning Sodom and Gomorrah into salt were a bad idea myself. They were guilty of the most wicked and vile behaviours known to man, then and now. The commandment regarding the Amalekites cannot be performed today, as there are none, so that is irrelevant. The closest thing to them that we have are the "Palestinians" who are in part descended from them, but also have other Canaanite heritage (as they themselves proudly acknowledge), so they don't fall under the ban.

Regarding the issue of Abraham and Isaac, scholars and Rabbis much smarter than either of us have wrestled with that one for centuries. The best explanation that I have yet heard is that it was a test of Abraham's faith, and possibly even Isaac's. In fact, the end result of it was that human sacrifice was forbidden in Judaism completely, although there was one incidence where it did occur, namely, during the judgeship of Jephtha (sp?). But this was directly contrary to the will of God.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 24, 2014, 01:49:35 AM
Why is the voice of a deity limited to petty scientific laws of sound propagation?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 24, 2014, 01:52:41 AM
Why is the voice of a deity limited to petty scientific laws of sound propagation?

Assuming Moses speaks to God, and God answers Moses, the answer is presumably intended for Moses, and not others. Ergo, while others may be intended to hear the voice, they may not be intended to hear what is said. And you appear to have ignored the rest of my post regarding the question of who spoke what language to whom.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 24, 2014, 01:57:26 AM
Assuming Moses speaks to God, and God answers Moses, the answer is presumably intended for Moses, and not others. Ergo, while others may be intended to hear the voice, they may not be intended to hear what is said. And you appear to have ignored the rest of my post regarding the question of who spoke what language to whom.

Okay, so, the evidence that god exists is that 2 million people presumably heard loud booming noises and one guy heard exactly what he needed to hear. Now, here we are today, with exactly zero people that have heard any such voice of god. Does it say anywhere that literally all of their descendents are chosen people? Because it sounds like those people were a lot more chosen than anyone today. No one alive today is even good enough to hear a loud booming noise.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 24, 2014, 02:00:48 AM
Jesus had an angel announce his birth from a virgin. Three magi followed a star on God's command to witness it. What about that could be mistaken for natural?

Yes, but from the age of 12-30, he was a carpenter in his father's shop and lived such an uneventful life that no one even bothered to record it. The same appears to have been true of his life from age 8 days to 12 years.

Sure.  But the point is that once he revealed his supernatural nature, there was no denying it.

Quote
The Creator turned a city to salt along with its inhabitants and called for the genocide of all current and future Amalekites, babies included. He also, just to prove a point watched with interest as Abraham almost murdered his son then at the last minute, after Abe had all but done the deed, and no doubt felt the cruel irony of the act, says "kidding!"

I am not sure why you think him above terrible, reprehensible commandments, for I cannot see it myself.

I don't see that turning Sodom and Gomorrah into salt were a bad idea myself.

Why am I not surprised.

Quote
They were guilty of the most wicked and vile behaviours known to man, then and now.
Like genocide?  Oh wait...

Quote
The commandment regarding the Amalekites cannot be performed today, as there are none, so that is irrelevant. The closest thing to them that we have are the "Palestinians" who are in part descended from them, but also have other Canaanite heritage (as they themselves proudly acknowledge), so they don't fall under the ban.

That does not change the fact that on your view, God not only sentenced babies to death, who no doubt had not done a thing wrong, but asked his proxies to carry it out instead of doing it quickly and painlessly himself.  What a terrible thing to do.  This is your God. 

Quote
Regarding the issue of Abraham and Isaac, scholars and Rabbis much smarter than either of us have wrestled with that one for centuries. The best explanation that I have yet heard is that it was a test of Abraham's faith, and possibly even Isaac's. In fact, the end result of it was that human sacrifice was forbidden in Judaism completely, although there was one incidence where it did occur, namely, during the judgeship of Jephtha (sp?). But this was directly contrary to the will of God.


If that is how God tested his subjects faith, then he is a psychopath.  The Rabbi's obviously were not smart enough to come to the conclusion that Yahweh was beneath contempt morally.  Instead, as irushwithscvs aptly pointed out, they are prisoners of the most perverse case of Stockholm syndrome ever. For further evidence of unspeakable horrors that God visited upon people who were guilty of nothing but loving him, see the Book of Job.

P.S.  Thanks for cleaning up the quoting.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 24, 2014, 02:06:32 AM
I hear people speak every day without hearing exactly what they say. In a crowd of 2 million people? Think about it! If I am on a busy street corner in any American Midwestern city of your choice (I'll pick Omaha, just because I don't live there, but I have been there), and I just stand there, and watch and listen to people, I will hear plenty of people speak. But in many, perhaps even most, cases, I won't hear exactly what they say to each other, or anything of what they say, for that matter.
Hundreds of people talking at once is equivalent to God now?

Quote
Now, assuming the crowd of 2 million was dead fucking silent, and it probably was, that still doesn't imply that everybody heard what the Lord said. Some of them might have, and most probably would not have.
Well no one wrote it down or spoke up about it.
Also:

Quote
However, you couldn't imitate the voice of God such that 2 million people could all hear it. That would be hard to do even today, let alone then.
You have admitted that 2 million people heard him speak yet now you're backtracking and say they really didn't hear him speak, just some noise and that they COULDN'T hear him.  You're moving your own goalpost and basically throwing my own argument at me.  Which is hilarious.
Quote
And remember, MOSES was writing this shit down.
1. No he wasn't.
2. He wrote it down AFTER it happened. 
3. He didn't write down the first words God spoke to his people?  Do you not see a problem with that?

Quote
No one else was. These were former slaves. I expect they didn't know how to read or write any language. In fact, one wonders what language they even spoke? Hebrew? Egyptian? A bastardised version of both? And what did God speak to Moses? Hebrew? Egyptian? I expect Hebrew. Could the people even UNDERSTAND what God said to Moses? Moses was a learned man, having been raised as a Prince of Egypt. The others? Not so much. The Levites probably had more knowledge than the others, but how much, as slaves?
So they wouldn't know the voice of God from say... a bunch of loud noises.  Got it.

Quote
So there are so many variables involved in this subject that you can hardly come up with a straightforward answer. And anyone who tries to just proves themselves to be a schmuck. And I say that knowing that it applies to either side of the argument.
At least you're finally admitting you're a schmuck.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 24, 2014, 02:14:46 AM
Assuming Moses speaks to God, and God answers Moses, the answer is presumably intended for Moses, and not others. Ergo, while others may be intended to hear the voice, they may not be intended to hear what is said. And you appear to have ignored the rest of my post regarding the question of who spoke what language to whom.

Okay, so, the evidence that god exists is that 2 million people presumably heard loud booming noises and one guy heard exactly what he needed to hear. Now, here we are today, with exactly zero people that have heard any such voice of god. Does it say anywhere that literally all of their descendents are chosen people? Because it sounds like those people were a lot more chosen than anyone today. No one alive today is even good enough to hear a loud booming noise.

Woah, slow down, Tex! Nice shooting, but slow down! That's a rather radical change in subject, don't you think? People who heard God speak to the Chosenness of the Jewish People.

I shall refer you to the entire text of the Wikipedia article on "Jews as the Chosen People". This is the easiest way to deal with the problem.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on October 24, 2014, 02:44:46 AM
Jesus had an angel announce his birth from a virgin. Three magi followed a star on God's command to witness it. What about that could be mistaken for natural?

Yes, but from the age of 12-30, he was a carpenter in his father's shop and lived such an uneventful life that no one even bothered to record it. The same appears to have been true of his life from age 8 days to 12 years.
This is not true.  There are a number of gnostic and/or heretical gospels that tell of the early life of Jesus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Infancy_Gospels
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 24, 2014, 02:55:20 AM
Jesus had an angel announce his birth from a virgin. Three magi followed a star on God's command to witness it. What about that could be mistaken for natural?

Yes, but from the age of 12-30, he was a carpenter in his father's shop and lived such an uneventful life that no one even bothered to record it. The same appears to have been true of his life from age 8 days to 12 years.

Sure.  But the point is that once he revealed his supernatural nature, there was no denying it.

To whom did he reveal this supernatural nature as a baby? He was in Bethlehem, and then went to Nazareth. No one there knew anything about who he was. Please note there WAS NO quote sign to follow with this portion of my post. My apologies for this.

Quote
The Creator turned a city to salt along with its inhabitants and called for the genocide of all current and future Amalekites, babies included. He also, just to prove a point watched with interest as Abraham almost murdered his son then at the last minute, after Abe had all but done the deed, and no doubt felt the cruel irony of the act, says "kidding!"

I am not sure why you think him above terrible, reprehensible commandments, for I cannot see it myself.

I don't see that turning Sodom and Gomorrah into salt were a bad idea myself.

Why am I not surprised.

Quote
They were guilty of the most wicked and vile behaviours known to man, then and now.
Like genocide?  Oh wait...

Quote

Being ordered to divinely punish is not genocide.
 
The commandment regarding the Amalekites cannot be performed today, as there are none, so that is irrelevant. The closest thing to them that we have are the "Palestinians" who are in part descended from them, but also have other Canaanite heritage (as they themselves proudly acknowledge), so they don't fall under the ban.

That does not change the fact that on your view, God not only sentenced babies to death, who no doubt had not done a thing wrong, but asked his proxies to carry it out instead of doing it quickly and painlessly himself.  What a terrible thing to do.  This is your God. 

IT WAS THE BRONZE AGE! What do you expect? That they sit around and smoke it up like hippies?

Quote
Regarding the issue of Abraham and Isaac, scholars and Rabbis much smarter than either of us have wrestled with that one for centuries. The best explanation that I have yet heard is that it was a test of Abraham's faith, and possibly even Isaac's. In fact, the end result of it was that human sacrifice was forbidden in Judaism completely, although there was one incidence where it did occur, namely, during the judgeship of Jephtha (sp?). But this was directly contrary to the will of God.


If that is how God tested his subjects faith, then he is a psychopath.  The Rabbi's obviously were not smart enough to come to the conclusion that Yahweh was beneath contempt morally.  Instead, as irushwithscvs aptly pointed out, they are prisoners of the most perverse case of Stockholm syndrome ever. For further evidence of unspeakable horrors that God visited upon people who were guilty of nothing but loving him, see the Book of Job.

P.S.  Thanks for cleaning up the quoting.

I would suggest that it is you with the problem. God was dealing with a race of slaves in the Bronze Age! What the hell do you expect. I have read Job, thank you.

The quoting in that passage is likely to be a mess. My apologies.

I hear people speak every day without hearing exactly what they say. In a crowd of 2 million people? Think about it! If I am on a busy street corner in any American Midwestern city of your choice (I'll pick Omaha, just because I don't live there, but I have been there), and I just stand there, and watch and listen to people, I will hear plenty of people speak. But in many, perhaps even most, cases, I won't hear exactly what they say to each other, or anything of what they say, for that matter.
Hundreds of people talking at once is equivalent to God now?

Quote
Now, assuming the crowd of 2 million was dead fucking silent, and it probably was, that still doesn't imply that everybody heard what the Lord said. Some of them might have, and most probably would not have.
Well no one wrote it down or spoke up about it.
Also:

Quote
However, you couldn't imitate the voice of God such that 2 million people could all hear it. That would be hard to do even today, let alone then.
You have admitted that 2 million people heard him speak yet now you're backtracking and say they really didn't hear him speak, just some noise and that they COULDN'T hear him.  You're moving your own goalpost and basically throwing my own argument at me.  Which is hilarious.
Quote

Actually, that is not what I said at all. What I said is that they all heard him speak. They did NOT necessarily understand what they heard. Again, your failure to comprehend the English language is your problem, not mine. I recommend basic literacy courses.

And remember, MOSES was writing this shit down.
1. No he wasn't.
2. He wrote it down AFTER it happened. 
3. He didn't write down the first words God spoke to his people?  Do you not see a problem with that?

Quote

MOSES SPOKE TO GOD. GOD THEN SPOKE TO MOSES. "19:19 And when the voice of the horn waxed louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him by a voice."  The words may not have been intended for anyone other than Moses himself. It may have been that the Hebrews were intended to hear the voice, but not what it said.

No one else was. These were former slaves. I expect they didn't know how to read or write any language. In fact, one wonders what language they even spoke? Hebrew? Egyptian? A bastardised version of both? And what did God speak to Moses? Hebrew? Egyptian? I expect Hebrew. Could the people even UNDERSTAND what God said to Moses? Moses was a learned man, having been raised as a Prince of Egypt. The others? Not so much. The Levites probably had more knowledge than the others, but how much, as slaves?
So they wouldn't know the voice of God from say... a bunch of loud noises.  Got it.

Quote

That is not what I said. One can recognise a voice but not know what it says. If I speak a bastardised French Creole and hear crisp Parisian French, I WILL hear a voice. But I may not understand what I am hearing. Do you not comprehend basic English when it is written? Perhaps your literacy needs to be re-evaluated?

So there are so many variables involved in this subject that you can hardly come up with a straightforward answer. And anyone who tries to just proves themselves to be a schmuck. And I say that knowing that it applies to either side of the argument.
At least you're finally admitting you're a schmuck.

I am not admitting to being a schmuck at all. I am simply saying that anyone who says that variables don't exist is a schmuck. I have admitted that variables do exist. You are the one that says they don't. Ergo...


Jesus had an angel announce his birth from a virgin. Three magi followed a star on God's command to witness it. What about that could be mistaken for natural?

Yes, but from the age of 12-30, he was a carpenter in his father's shop and lived such an uneventful life that no one even bothered to record it. The same appears to have been true of his life from age 8 days to 12 years.
This is not true.  There are a number of gnostic and/or heretical gospels that tell of the early life of Jesus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Infancy_Gospels

I am well aware of this, having read several of these. But since they are not accepted as canonical, there is little point in discussing them.

EDIT: Please note that my responses are underlined due to the confusing nature of this passage.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 24, 2014, 03:30:19 AM
I expect the creator of the universe and the originator of morality to not do heinous evil things. Don't you?  If anyone has a choice, it is Yahweh.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 24, 2014, 03:42:28 AM
I expect the creator of the universe and the originator of morality to not do heinous evil things. Don't you?  If anyone has a choice, it is Yahweh.

In the Bronze Age, the Creator of the universe does what he needs to do to keep his Chosen People alive to reach this day. Given the savagery of the people whom they faced off with in battle, he allowed and even commanded them to do what was necessary to win. But there were still codes of honour that had to be maintained. You can read about them in the Jewish Bible. The Hebrews were always a step above other nations in that respect.

I have to go. I'll chat with you all tomorrow.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 24, 2014, 05:13:00 AM
I expect the creator of the universe and the originator of morality to not do heinous evil things. Don't you?  If anyone has a choice, it is Yahweh.

In the Bronze Age, the Creator of the universe does what he needs to do to keep his Chosen People alive to reach this day. Given the savagery of the people whom they faced off with in battle, he allowed and even commanded them to do what was necessary to win. But there were still codes of honour that had to be maintained. You can read about them in the Jewish Bible. The Hebrews were always a step above other nations in that respect.

I have to go. I'll chat with you all tomorrow.

Well that is an awfully big assumption.  Didn't you say:

Quote from: Yonah ben Amittai link=topic=1183.msg47686#msg47686 date=1414108565
They can't be analysed from a human perspective, because the book makes divine claims for itself. It is that simple. To compare, it would be like me, an historian, trying to evaluate the work of a mathematics professor. I am not equipped for the task, nor could I ever be. Its out of my paygrade. So there you are.

How could you possibly try and understand his actions?  Fortunately I do not feel the same way, so I will.  All I know is that a being who has ultimate power over life and death make the deliberate choice to lead his chosen people in to committing genocide rather than the million other ways that an omnipotent being could have solved it in which no one has to die.  This sounds like a perverse extreme of how African warlords indoctrinate their child soldiers.  Sounds like he is evil. 

Again, given the choice, your God chose genocide over some peaceful supernatural solution.


Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: EnigmaZV on October 24, 2014, 05:13:36 AM
In the Bronze Age, the Creator of the universe does what he needs to do to keep his Chosen People alive to reach this day.

(http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130720142458/stephenking/images/6/6e/Under_the_dome_logo.jpg)

That seems like a reasonable way to keep people safe.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 24, 2014, 11:02:08 AM
I expect the creator of the universe and the originator of morality to not do heinous evil things. Don't you?  If anyone has a choice, it is Yahweh.

In the Bronze Age, the Creator of the universe does what he needs to do to keep his Chosen People alive to reach this day. Given the savagery of the people whom they faced off with in battle, he allowed and even commanded them to do what was necessary to win. But there were still codes of honour that had to be maintained. You can read about them in the Jewish Bible. The Hebrews were always a step above other nations in that respect.

I have to go. I'll chat with you all tomorrow.

Well that is an awfully big assumption.  Didn't you say:

Quote from: Yonah ben Amittai link=topic=1183.msg47686#msg47686 date=1414108565
They can't be analysed from a human perspective, because the book makes divine claims for itself. It is that simple. To compare, it would be like me, an historian, trying to evaluate the work of a mathematics professor. I am not equipped for the task, nor could I ever be. Its out of my paygrade. So there you are.

How could you possibly try and understand his actions?  Fortunately I do not feel the same way, so I will.  All I know is that a being who has ultimate power over life and death make the deliberate choice to lead his chosen people in to committing genocide rather than the million other ways that an omnipotent being could have solved it in which no one has to die.  This sounds like a perverse extreme of how African warlords indoctrinate their child soldiers.  Sounds like he is evil. 

Again, given the choice, your God chose genocide over some peaceful supernatural solution.

Waah. When you are dealing with the kind of vileness committed by these people not only in their daily lives, but as a part of their religious lives it becomes a moral imperative to punish them. I feel no differently about the Aztecs. It was a moral imperative to destroy Tenochtitlan and pretty much everyone in it for the wickedness that flourished therein. I'm not going to sit here and feel bad about the loss of people who committed human sacrifice on the order of 20,000 human hearts ripped out in 4 days back in 1489 at one ceremony.

What African warlords do to perfectly innocent persons who never did harm to man nor beast, and what the righteous Israelites did to those who fell under ban of God are two different things, and I defy you to make a reasonable comparison between the two. I encourage you to quit whining so much. Like I said. Waah. Or perhaps I should extend it to "Waah fuckin' waah".

EnigmaZV, whatever.


Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 24, 2014, 11:05:02 AM
BAAAAWWW
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 24, 2014, 11:35:13 AM
What did Amalekite babies do that required their death?

By the way, making the argument that Aztecs were vile so Amalekites were as well is illogical. Can you cite anything independent of God's claims that show the Amalekites were "vile"? Right now it looks like Israelites were the awful ones.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 24, 2014, 11:48:34 AM
The fact that Amalekites attacked Israel without cause or justification made them awful. But they were also just like their Canaanite brethren in terms of their practices. I was using the Aztecs as a comparison, not as an argument. If you don't know the difference, that sounds like a failure in your education.

You know, its like saying "The Islamic State is as bad as Hitler". One is not saying that ISIS has anything to do with the Nazis. That would be stupid. It is only to compare their mentality.

Waah fuckin' waah.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 24, 2014, 01:21:13 PM
The fact that Amalekites attacked Israel without cause or justification made them awful. But they were also just like their Canaanite brethren in terms of their practices. I was using the Aztecs as a comparison, not as an argument. If you don't know the difference, that sounds like a failure in your education.

You know, its like saying "The Islamic State is as bad as Hitler". One is not saying that ISIS has anything to do with the Nazis. That would be stupid. It is only to compare their mentality.

Waah fuckin' waah.

Godwin's Law, you lose, as you like to say.

Anyway, can you cite a source other than the Torah to corroborate your claims?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 24, 2014, 01:37:20 PM
The fact that Amalekites attacked Israel without cause or justification made them awful. But they were also just like their Canaanite brethren in terms of their practices. I was using the Aztecs as a comparison, not as an argument. If you don't know the difference, that sounds like a failure in your education.

You know, its like saying "The Islamic State is as bad as Hitler". One is not saying that ISIS has anything to do with the Nazis. That would be stupid. It is only to compare their mentality.

Waah fuckin' waah.

Godwin's Law, you lose, as you like to say.

Anyway, can you cite a source other than the Torah to corroborate your claims?

Actually, no, Godwin's Law doesn't apply. I could just have easily have said the following: "You know, its like saying "The Islamic State is as bad as the Mongols". One is not saying that ISIS has anything to do with the Mongols. That would be stupid. It is only to compare their mentality. Waah fuckin' waah."

Misusing Godwin's Law won't get you very far.

QUOTE: "Canaanite culture and religion

Edited by Robert A. Guisepi

 

The Israelite tribes during the period of the guidance and leadership of Moses and Joshua mainly had to contend with nomadic tribes; in their contacts with such groups, they absorbed some of the attitudes and motifs of the nomadic way of life, such as independence, a love of freedom to move about, and fear of or disdain for the way of life of settled, agricultural, and urban peoples.

The Canaanites, with whom the Israelites came into contact during the conquest by Joshua and the period of the Judges, were a sophisticated agricultural and urban people. The name Canaan means "Land of Purple" (a purple dye was extracted from a murex shellfish found near the shores of Palestine). The Canaanites, a people who absorbed and assimilated the features of many cultures of the ancient Near East for at least 500 years before the Israelites entered their area of control, were the people who, as far as is known, invented the form of writing that became the alphabet, which, through the Greeks and Romans, was passed on to many cultures influenced by their successors--namely, the nations and peoples of Western civilization.

The religion of the Canaanites was an agricultural religion, with pronounced fertility motifs. Their main gods were called the Baalim (Lords), and their consorts the Baalot (Ladies), or Asherah (singular), usually known by the personal plural name Ashtoret. The god of the city of Shechem, which city the Israelites had absorbed peacefully under Joshua, was called Baal-berith (Lord of the Covenant) or El-berith (God of the Covenant). Shechem became the first cultic center of the religious tribal confederacy (called an amphictyony by the Greeks) of the Israelites during the period of the judges. When Shechem was excavated in the early 1960s, the temple of Baal-berith was partially reconstructed; the sacred pillar (generally a phallic symbol or, often, a representation of the ashera, the female fertility symbol) was placed in its original position before the entrance of the temple.

The Baalim and the Baalot, gods and goddesses of the Earth, were believed to be the revitalizes of the forces of nature upon which agriculture depended. The revitalization process involved a sacred marriage (hieros gamos), replete with sexual symbolic and actual activities between men, representing the Baalim, and the sacred temple prostitutes (qedeshot), representing the Baalot. Cultic ceremonies involving sexual acts between male members of the agricultural communities and sacred prostitutes dedicated to the Baalim were focused on the Canaanite concept of sympathetic magic. As the Baalim (through the actions of selected men) both symbolically and actually impregnated the sacred prostitutes in order to reproduce in kind, so also, it was believed, the Baalim (as gods of the weather and the Earth) would send the rains (often identified with semen) to the Earth so that it might yield abundant harvests of grains and fruits. Canaanite myths incorporating such fertility myths are represented in the mythological texts of the ancient city of Ugarit (modern Ras Shamra) in northern Syria; though the high god El and his consort are important as the first pair of the pantheon, Baal and his sexually passionate sister-consort are significant in the creation of the world and the renewal of nature.

The religion of the Canaanite agriculturalists proved to be a strong attraction to the less sophisticated and nomadic-oriented Israelite tribes. Many Israelites succumbed to the allurements of the fertility-laden rituals and practices of the Canaanite religion, partly because it was new and different from the Yahwistic religion and, possibly, because of a tendency of a rigorous faith and ethic to weaken under the influence of sexual attractions. As the Canaanites and the Israelites began to live in closer contact with each other, the faith of Israel tended to absorb some of the concepts and practices of the Canaanite religion. Some Israelites began to name their children after the Baalim; even one of the judges, Gideon, was also known by the name Jerubbaal ("Let Baal Contend").

As the syncretistic tendencies became further entrenched in the Israelite faith, the people began to lose the concept of their exclusiveness and their mission to be a witness to the nations, thus becoming weakened in resolve internally and liable to the oppression of other peoples."

Source: http://history-world.org/canaanite_culture_and_religion.htm

That is just one, minor source. I could go further, but that will do for the present.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 24, 2014, 04:33:21 PM
The fact that Amalekites attacked Israel without cause or justification made them awful. But they were also just like their Canaanite brethren in terms of their practices. I was using the Aztecs as a comparison, not as an argument. If you don't know the difference, that sounds like a failure in your education.

You know, its like saying "The Islamic State is as bad as Hitler". One is not saying that ISIS has anything to do with the Nazis. That would be stupid. It is only to compare their mentality.

Waah fuckin' waah.

Godwin's Law, you lose, as you like to say.

Anyway, can you cite a source other than the Torah to corroborate your claims?

Actually, no, Godwin's Law doesn't apply. I could just have easily have said the following: "You know, its like saying "The Islamic State is as bad as the Mongols". One is not saying that ISIS has anything to do with the Mongols. That would be stupid. It is only to compare their mentality. Waah fuckin' waah."

Misusing Godwin's Law won't get you very far.

I did not misuse it.  Your comment was textbook Godwin's law:
Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
Godwin's law (or Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies)[1][2] is an Internet adage asserting that "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1"[2][3]—​ that is, if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Hitler or Nazism.

You could have made another comparison, but you did not did you?  You lose.


QUOTE: "Canaanite culture and religion

Edited by Robert A. Guisepi

 

The Israelite tribes during the period of the guidance and leadership of Moses and Joshua mainly had to contend with nomadic tribes; in their contacts with such groups, they absorbed some of the attitudes and motifs of the nomadic way of life, such as independence, a love of freedom to move about, and fear of or disdain for the way of life of settled, agricultural, and urban peoples.

The Canaanites, with whom the Israelites came into contact during the conquest by Joshua and the period of the Judges, were a sophisticated agricultural and urban people. The name Canaan means "Land of Purple" (a purple dye was extracted from a murex shellfish found near the shores of Palestine). The Canaanites, a people who absorbed and assimilated the features of many cultures of the ancient Near East for at least 500 years before the Israelites entered their area of control, were the people who, as far as is known, invented the form of writing that became the alphabet, which, through the Greeks and Romans, was passed on to many cultures influenced by their successors--namely, the nations and peoples of Western civilization.

The religion of the Canaanites was an agricultural religion, with pronounced fertility motifs. Their main gods were called the Baalim (Lords), and their consorts the Baalot (Ladies), or Asherah (singular), usually known by the personal plural name Ashtoret. The god of the city of Shechem, which city the Israelites had absorbed peacefully under Joshua, was called Baal-berith (Lord of the Covenant) or El-berith (God of the Covenant). Shechem became the first cultic center of the religious tribal confederacy (called an amphictyony by the Greeks) of the Israelites during the period of the judges. When Shechem was excavated in the early 1960s, the temple of Baal-berith was partially reconstructed; the sacred pillar (generally a phallic symbol or, often, a representation of the ashera, the female fertility symbol) was placed in its original position before the entrance of the temple.

The Baalim and the Baalot, gods and goddesses of the Earth, were believed to be the revitalizes of the forces of nature upon which agriculture depended. The revitalization process involved a sacred marriage (hieros gamos), replete with sexual symbolic and actual activities between men, representing the Baalim, and the sacred temple prostitutes (qedeshot), representing the Baalot. Cultic ceremonies involving sexual acts between male members of the agricultural communities and sacred prostitutes dedicated to the Baalim were focused on the Canaanite concept of sympathetic magic. As the Baalim (through the actions of selected men) both symbolically and actually impregnated the sacred prostitutes in order to reproduce in kind, so also, it was believed, the Baalim (as gods of the weather and the Earth) would send the rains (often identified with semen) to the Earth so that it might yield abundant harvests of grains and fruits. Canaanite myths incorporating such fertility myths are represented in the mythological texts of the ancient city of Ugarit (modern Ras Shamra) in northern Syria; though the high god El and his consort are important as the first pair of the pantheon, Baal and his sexually passionate sister-consort are significant in the creation of the world and the renewal of nature.

The religion of the Canaanite agriculturalists proved to be a strong attraction to the less sophisticated and nomadic-oriented Israelite tribes. Many Israelites succumbed to the allurements of the fertility-laden rituals and practices of the Canaanite religion, partly because it was new and different from the Yahwistic religion and, possibly, because of a tendency of a rigorous faith and ethic to weaken under the influence of sexual attractions. As the Canaanites and the Israelites began to live in closer contact with each other, the faith of Israel tended to absorb some of the concepts and practices of the Canaanite religion. Some Israelites began to name their children after the Baalim; even one of the judges, Gideon, was also known by the name Jerubbaal ("Let Baal Contend").

As the syncretistic tendencies became further entrenched in the Israelite faith, the people began to lose the concept of their exclusiveness and their mission to be a witness to the nations, thus becoming weakened in resolve internally and liable to the oppression of other peoples."

Source: http://history-world.org/canaanite_culture_and_religion.htm

That is just one, minor source. I could go further, but that will do for the present.
[/quote]

Other than having sex with ritualistically, which may or may not have been forced upon the women, I dont know, what specifically about this merits murdering babies, or even adults?  You seem to be strengthening my position that genocide was commanded for no good reason, if there could even be a good reason for genocide.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 24, 2014, 05:02:16 PM
The fact that Amalekites attacked Israel without cause or justification made them awful. But they were also just like their Canaanite brethren in terms of their practices. I was using the Aztecs as a comparison, not as an argument. If you don't know the difference, that sounds like a failure in your education.

You know, its like saying "The Islamic State is as bad as Hitler". One is not saying that ISIS has anything to do with the Nazis. That would be stupid. It is only to compare their mentality.

Waah fuckin' waah.

Godwin's Law, you lose, as you like to say.

Anyway, can you cite a source other than the Torah to corroborate your claims?

Actually, no, Godwin's Law doesn't apply. I could just have easily have said the following: "You know, its like saying "The Islamic State is as bad as the Mongols". One is not saying that ISIS has anything to do with the Mongols. That would be stupid. It is only to compare their mentality. Waah fuckin' waah."

Misusing Godwin's Law won't get you very far.

I did not misuse it.  Your comment was textbook Godwin's law:
Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
Godwin's law (or Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies)[1][2] is an Internet adage asserting that "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1"[2][3]—​ that is, if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Hitler or Nazism.

You could have made another comparison, but you did not did you?  You lose.


QUOTE: "Canaanite culture and religion

Edited by Robert A. Guisepi

 

The Israelite tribes during the period of the guidance and leadership of Moses and Joshua mainly had to contend with nomadic tribes; in their contacts with such groups, they absorbed some of the attitudes and motifs of the nomadic way of life, such as independence, a love of freedom to move about, and fear of or disdain for the way of life of settled, agricultural, and urban peoples.

The Canaanites, with whom the Israelites came into contact during the conquest by Joshua and the period of the Judges, were a sophisticated agricultural and urban people. The name Canaan means "Land of Purple" (a purple dye was extracted from a murex shellfish found near the shores of Palestine). The Canaanites, a people who absorbed and assimilated the features of many cultures of the ancient Near East for at least 500 years before the Israelites entered their area of control, were the people who, as far as is known, invented the form of writing that became the alphabet, which, through the Greeks and Romans, was passed on to many cultures influenced by their successors--namely, the nations and peoples of Western civilization.

The religion of the Canaanites was an agricultural religion, with pronounced fertility motifs. Their main gods were called the Baalim (Lords), and their consorts the Baalot (Ladies), or Asherah (singular), usually known by the personal plural name Ashtoret. The god of the city of Shechem, which city the Israelites had absorbed peacefully under Joshua, was called Baal-berith (Lord of the Covenant) or El-berith (God of the Covenant). Shechem became the first cultic center of the religious tribal confederacy (called an amphictyony by the Greeks) of the Israelites during the period of the judges. When Shechem was excavated in the early 1960s, the temple of Baal-berith was partially reconstructed; the sacred pillar (generally a phallic symbol or, often, a representation of the ashera, the female fertility symbol) was placed in its original position before the entrance of the temple.

The Baalim and the Baalot, gods and goddesses of the Earth, were believed to be the revitalizes of the forces of nature upon which agriculture depended. The revitalization process involved a sacred marriage (hieros gamos), replete with sexual symbolic and actual activities between men, representing the Baalim, and the sacred temple prostitutes (qedeshot), representing the Baalot. Cultic ceremonies involving sexual acts between male members of the agricultural communities and sacred prostitutes dedicated to the Baalim were focused on the Canaanite concept of sympathetic magic. As the Baalim (through the actions of selected men) both symbolically and actually impregnated the sacred prostitutes in order to reproduce in kind, so also, it was believed, the Baalim (as gods of the weather and the Earth) would send the rains (often identified with semen) to the Earth so that it might yield abundant harvests of grains and fruits. Canaanite myths incorporating such fertility myths are represented in the mythological texts of the ancient city of Ugarit (modern Ras Shamra) in northern Syria; though the high god El and his consort are important as the first pair of the pantheon, Baal and his sexually passionate sister-consort are significant in the creation of the world and the renewal of nature.

The religion of the Canaanite agriculturalists proved to be a strong attraction to the less sophisticated and nomadic-oriented Israelite tribes. Many Israelites succumbed to the allurements of the fertility-laden rituals and practices of the Canaanite religion, partly because it was new and different from the Yahwistic religion and, possibly, because of a tendency of a rigorous faith and ethic to weaken under the influence of sexual attractions. As the Canaanites and the Israelites began to live in closer contact with each other, the faith of Israel tended to absorb some of the concepts and practices of the Canaanite religion. Some Israelites began to name their children after the Baalim; even one of the judges, Gideon, was also known by the name Jerubbaal ("Let Baal Contend").

As the syncretistic tendencies became further entrenched in the Israelite faith, the people began to lose the concept of their exclusiveness and their mission to be a witness to the nations, thus becoming weakened in resolve internally and liable to the oppression of other peoples."

Source: http://history-world.org/canaanite_culture_and_religion.htm

That is just one, minor source. I could go further, but that will do for the present.

Other than having sex with ritualistically, which may or may not have been forced upon the women, I dont know, what specifically about this merits murdering babies, or even adults?  You seem to be strengthening my position that genocide was commanded for no good reason, if there could even be a good reason for genocide.
[/quote]

 Note that in the original, I said that "ITS LIKE SAYING "The Islamic State is as bad as Hitler, etc." I'm not actually saying it. I'm saying "ITS LIKE SAYING IT". In reality, I compared the Aztecs to the Canaanites. So in point of fact, I did not use the Nazis at all. EPIC FAIL

A culture that indulges in wanton sexual ritual behaviour is highly likely to indulge in sexual depravity of every nature, and doesn't deserve to continue to exist. Ergo, elimination. The fact that they resisted the Israelites' entry into the Land also justifies their elimination. Granted, anybody might resist, but such is life. Shit happens. Waah fuckin' waah.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 24, 2014, 06:15:08 PM
If you will all refer to page ten of this thread, reply #187, you will witness a (presumably Youtube) spoof on ownership of the Land of Israel. Although intended to mock claims of Jewish ownership to the Land of Israel, I find it interesting that in fact, it actually confirms those claims. Observe the following:

1: Cavemen never claimed any ownership of the Land per se.
2: Neither did Egyptians. They simply ruled it.
3: Neither did ancient Canaanites have any unique claim on the Land as such. It was simply where they happened to live, again, like cavemen.
4: The Jews appear, and for the first time make a unique claim on the territory as their divine possession.
5:Along come Babylonians. They exile the Jews, but merely rule the place.
6. Along come Persians. They actually allowed the Jews to return. The song does not explore that part of history. Why, I don't know.
7. The Romans never wanted to claim the land as anything other than a possession. NO sane Roman EVER wanted to be sent there. Only Romans in disfavour, or Romans climbing their way up had to endure what they considered a hellhole.
8: The Byzantines had the same mindset as the Romans. The early Arabs treated land no different than the rest of their territories.
9: In the song Jews appear a second time. This is interesting. I'll save this for later. Note, they are the only ones historically that ever claimed the land uniquely as their own.
10: Along come Muslims, I assume. But the Qur'an even says in about eight places that the Land of Israel belongs to the Jews.
12: Along come armored Jews, unless I miss my guess. That is the third time they appear.
13: Arabs and Crusaders come along. Neither group ever wanted to live there. They just each considered the land holy for their own purposes.
14: Here come the Ottomans. They just wanted a Muslim Empire to stretch as far as it could, and cover the three Holy Places, of which Jerusalem was one.
15: Here come the British. They didn't want anything to do with this. They got handed a shit sandwich by the League of Nations and told to make it taste good on the way down, the poor bastards.
16: The Jews show up for the FOURTH time. Again, they are the only group that ever really WANTED to call the place home. Everyone else who ever lived there did so because he had to.
17: And finally, the State of Israel shows up. Jews for the FIFTH time.

So Arabs show up three or four times. Jews show up four or five times, depending on how you count. Ottomans are NOT Arabs, remember. And ONLY the Jews ever have a unique claim to the Land of Israel that makes it theirs to live in. The Arabs, and everyone else that ever lived there, lived there because they had to, not usually because they wanted to. Even the Qur'an states that Israel is the Land of the Jew. So, the song itself, rather than being anti-Semitic, which is its intent, actually ends up proving the Jewish claim, and making its own author looking like a schmuck. Smooth move, Nina. Better luck next time? Aside from the fact that the song ends in a nuclear blast, which hasn't happened.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 24, 2014, 06:15:33 PM
Note that in the original, I said that "ITS LIKE SAYING "The Islamic State is as bad as Hitler, etc." I'm not actually saying it. I'm saying "ITS LIKE SAYING IT". In reality, I compared the Aztecs to the Canaanites. So in point of fact, I did not use the Nazis at all. EPIC FAIL

What ever makes you feel better.

Quote
A culture that indulges in wanton sexual ritual behaviour is highly likely to indulge in sexual depravity of every nature, and doesn't deserve to continue to exist. Ergo, elimination.

By that logic, you think Thailand should have genocide visited upon it?  Because they use penises in ways that you don't agree with?  And you think you are rational?

Quote
The fact that they resisted the Israelites' entry into the Land also justifies their elimination. Granted, anybody might resist, but such is life. Shit happens. Waah fuckin' waah.

How dare the Canaanites dare defend their home!  Did God give them warning that they should quietly leave the only home they have ever known?

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 24, 2014, 06:24:25 PM
If you will all refer to page ten of this thread, reply #187, you will witness a (presumably Youtube) spoof on ownership of the Land of Israel. Although intended to mock claims of Jewish ownership to the Land of Israel, I find it interesting that in fact, it actually confirms those claims. Observe the following:

1: Cavemen never claimed any ownership of the Land per se.
You don't know that.
Quote
2: Neither did Egyptians. They simply ruled it.
A distinction without a difference.
Quote
3: Neither did ancient Canaanites have any unique claim on the Land as such. It was simply where they happened to live, again, like cavemen.
Prove it.
Quote
4: The Jews appear, and for the first time make a unique claim on the territory as their divine possession.
Which no one cares about.
Quote
5:Along come Babylonians. They exile the Jews, but merely rule the place.
Again, distinction without a difference.
Quote
6. Along come Persians. They actually allowed the Jews to return. The song does not explore that part of history. Why, I don't know.
7. The Romans never wanted to claim the land as anything other than a possession. NO sane Roman EVER wanted to be sent there. Only Romans in disfavour, or Romans climbing their way up had to endure what they considered a hellhole.
I own my possessions.  Don't you?
Quote
8: The Byzantines had the same mindset as the Romans. The early Arabs treated land no different than the rest of their territories.
So they owned it.  I am seeing a theme here.
Quote
9: In the song Jews appear a second time. This is interesting. I'll save this for later. Note, they are the only ones historically that ever claimed the land uniquely as their own.
Again, why should anyone care?
Quote
10: Along come Muslims, I assume. But the Qur'an even says in about eight places that the Land of Israel belongs to the Jews.
Not anymore!
Quote
12: Along come armored Jews, unless I miss my guess. That is the third time they appear.
The genocidists return!
Quote
13: Arabs and Crusaders come along. Neither group ever wanted to live there. They just each considered the land holy for their own purposes.
Prove that no one wanted to live there.  What does that have to do with ownership anyway?  People are free to use their possessions as they see fit.
Quote
14: Here come the Ottomans. They just wanted a Muslim Empire to stretch as far as it could, and cover the three Holy Places, of which Jerusalem was one.
So they wanted it for divine reasons.  Sounds just as legit as the Jewish claim.
Quote
15: Here come the British. They didn't want anything to do with this. They got handed a shit sandwich by the League of Nations and told to make it taste good on the way down, the poor bastards.
Oh yeah, the Brits had a tough go of it.
Quote
16: The Jews show up for the FOURTH time. Again, they are the only group that ever really WANTED to call the place home. Everyone else who ever lived there did so because he had to.
The Jews have to as well, God said it's their home.
Quote
17: And finally, the State of Israel shows up. Jews for the FIFTH time.
Finally with a real arms supplier so that they can deal with all the pesky natives.

Quote
So Arabs show up three or four times. Jews show up four or five times, depending on how you count. Ottomans are NOT Arabs, remember. And ONLY the Jews ever have a unique claim to the Land of Israel that makes it theirs to live in. The Arabs, and everyone else that ever lived there, lived there because they had to, not usually because they wanted to. Even the Qur'an states that Israel is the Land of the Jew. So, the song itself, rather than being anti-Semitic, which is its intent, actually ends up proving the Jewish claim, and making its own author looking like a schmuck. Smooth move, Nina. Better luck next time?

So the Jews show up five times, always looking to kick out people that had a prior claim.  Got it.  Thanks for the history lesson.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 24, 2014, 06:37:39 PM
If you will all refer to page ten of this thread, reply #187, you will witness a (presumably Youtube) spoof on ownership of the Land of Israel. Although intended to mock claims of Jewish ownership to the Land of Israel, I find it interesting that in fact, it actually confirms those claims. Observe the following:

1: Cavemen never claimed any ownership of the Land per se.
You don't know that.

Cavemen were not likely to care, being more concerned with immediate needs of survival.

Quote
2: Neither did Egyptians. They simply ruled it.

A distinction without a difference.

But a distinction anyway.

Quote
3: Neither did ancient Canaanites have any unique claim on the Land as such. It was simply where they happened to live, again, like cavemen.

Prove it.

Unnecessary. God took care of that.

Quote
4: The Jews appear, and for the first time make a unique claim on the territory as their divine possession.

Which no one cares about.

Well, we are still here. They are not.

Quote
5:Along come Babylonians. They exile the Jews, but merely rule the place.

Again, distinction without a difference.

A distinction, nontheless.

Quote
6. Along come Persians. They actually allowed the Jews to return. The song does not explore that part of history. Why, I don't know.

7. The Romans never wanted to claim the land as anything other than a possession. NO sane Roman EVER wanted to be sent there. Only Romans in disfavour, or Romans climbing their way up had to endure what they considered a hellhole.

I own my possessions.  Don't you?

Irrelevant.

Quote
8: The Byzantines had the same mindset as the Romans. The early Arabs treated land no different than the rest of their territories.

So they owned it.  I am seeing a theme here.

Irrelevant.

Quote
9: In the song Jews appear a second time. This is interesting. I'll save this for later. Note, they are the only ones historically that ever claimed the land uniquely as their own.
Again, why should anyone care?

We are still here.

Quote
10: Along come Muslims, I assume. But the Qur'an even says in about eight places that the Land of Israel belongs to the Jews.

Not anymore!

Yes, it does. You ought to read the thing.


Quote
12: Along come armored Jews, unless I miss my guess. That is the third time they appear.

The genocidists return!

Ad hominem.

Quote
13: Arabs and Crusaders come along. Neither group ever wanted to live there. They just each considered the land holy for their own purposes.

Prove that no one wanted to live there.  What does that have to do with ownership anyway?  People are free to use their possessions as they see fit.

Again, No sane person during the Crusades on either side went there to stay. They went to fight, and go home with honour. Did an American go to Japan in the "40's to stay?

Quote
14: Here come the Ottomans. They just wanted a Muslim Empire to stretch as far as it could, and cover the three Holy Places, of which Jerusalem was one.

So they wanted it for divine reasons.  Sounds just as legit as the Jewish claim.

But again, not to live in.

Quote
15: Here come the British. They didn't want anything to do with this. They got handed a shit sandwich by the League of Nations and told to make it taste good on the way down, the poor bastards.

Oh yeah, the Brits had a tough go of it.

Whatever.

Quote
16: The Jews show up for the FOURTH time. Again, they are the only group that ever really WANTED to call the place home. Everyone else who ever lived there did so because he had to.

The Jews have to as well, God said it's their home.

But they want to.

Quote
17: And finally, the State of Israel shows up. Jews for the FIFTH time.
Finally with a real arms supplier so that they can deal with all the pesky natives.

What natives. "Palestinians" are not natives. They are interlopers on land that is not theirs. They always considered themselves part of Syria.

Quote
So Arabs show up three or four times. Jews show up four or five times, depending on how you count. Ottomans are NOT Arabs, remember. And ONLY the Jews ever have a unique claim to the Land of Israel that makes it theirs to live in. The Arabs, and everyone else that ever lived there, lived there because they had to, not usually because they wanted to. Even the Qur'an states that Israel is the Land of the Jew. So, the song itself, rather than being anti-Semitic, which is its intent, actually ends up proving the Jewish claim, and making its own author looking like a schmuck. Smooth move, Nina. Better luck next time?

So the Jews show up five times, always looking to kick out people that had a prior claim.  Got it.  Thanks for the history lesson.

My point is that no one ever had prior claims, or wanted to.  Waah fuckin' waah.


Note that in the original, I said that "ITS LIKE SAYING "The Islamic State is as bad as Hitler, etc." I'm not actually saying it. I'm saying "ITS LIKE SAYING IT". In reality, I compared the Aztecs to the Canaanites. So in point of fact, I did not use the Nazis at all. EPIC FAIL

What ever makes you feel better.

No comment.

Quote
A culture that indulges in wanton sexual ritual behaviour is highly likely to indulge in sexual depravity of every nature, and doesn't deserve to continue to exist. Ergo, elimination.

By that logic, you think Thailand should have genocide visited upon it?  Because they use penises in ways that you don't agree with?  And you think you are rational?

I am perfectly rational. I understand that there are alternative lifestyles in the world. But what the Canaanites pulled was beyond that. Aside from the fact that they also had Molech worship, such as human sacrifice, and other delightful things. This is confirmed by research outside of Scripture. And no, I am NOT going to go digging for sources. You can easily look this up just as I can. Go pay a visit to your public library.

Quote
The fact that they resisted the Israelites' entry into the Land also justifies their elimination. Granted, anybody might resist, but such is life. Shit happens. Waah fuckin' waah.

How dare the Canaanites dare defend their home!  Did God give them warning that they should quietly leave the only home they have ever known?

It was time for God's judgement, and no one gets out of that. I'm sorry, but shit happens. In fact, if the United States keeps going on her wayward path, I expect we will also face divine wrath and judgement, and I likewise expect that it won't be pretty. And guess what? IT WON'T BE PRETTY. SHIT HAPPENS. WAAH FUCKIN' WAAH.

It is possible that the reason such awful groups as ISIS exist is bring us back to righteous observance of God's Holy Word. Guns alone won't defeat these bastards. Only righteous living and proper fear of God will. Then guns will do the rest. We need to purify ourselves, and then go exterminate the fuckers. But we can't do that unless we are pure first. You don't like that, I expect. Tough shit. Sounds like a personal problem to me. Deal with it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 24, 2014, 07:33:31 PM

Cavemen were not likely to care, being more concerned with immediate needs of survival.

Still making things up that you don't know?

Quote

But a distinction anyway.

Do you know what the phrase even means?

Quote
Unnecessary. God took care of that.

The Jews did, by committing genocide.

Quote
Well, we are still here. They are not.

And no one cares about your claim.

Quote
A distinction, nontheless.

Look up what the phrase means.  Seriously.

Quote
Irrelevant.

We are talking about ownership aren't we?  Seems pretty germane actually.

Quote
Irrelevant.

Only if you want to live in denial.

Quote
We are still here.

And still making up stories about God.  *yawn*

Quote
Yes, it does. You ought to read the thing.

Not what I meant, but it does not matter.

Quote
Ad hominem.

I was not making an argument, just pointing how terrible the history of the Jews is.

Quote
Again, No sane person during the Crusades on either side went there to stay. They went to fight, and go home with honour. Did an American go to Japan in the "40's to stay?

Again, what does that have to do with the fact of ownership?

Quote
But again, not to live in.

Again, what does that have to do with the fact of ownership?

Quote
Whatever.

Whatever whatever.

Quote
But they want to.

But they have to.

Quote
What natives. "Palestinians" are not natives.

Neither are Jews.  The Canaanites were more native than the Jews.

Quote
They are interlopers on land that is not theirs. They always considered themselves part of Syria.

Wait, don't you think Palestinians are descended from the native Canaanites?

Quote
My point is that no one ever had prior claims, or wanted to.  Waah fuckin' waah.

I think the Canaanites do.


Quote
I am perfectly rational. I understand that there are alternative lifestyles in the world. But what the Canaanites pulled was beyond that. Aside from the fact that they also had Molech worship, such as human sacrifice, and other delightful things. This is confirmed by research outside of Scripture. And no, I am NOT going to go digging for sources. You can easily look this up just as I can. Go pay a visit to your public library.

If you can't prove it, that is fine.  Just withdraw your claim and stop trying to justify the murder of babies.

Quote
It was time for God's judgement, and no one gets out of that. I'm sorry, but shit happens. In fact, if the United States keeps going on her wayward path, I expect we will also face divine wrath and judgement, and I likewise expect that it won't be pretty. And guess what? IT WON'T BE PRETTY. SHIT HAPPENS. WAAH FUCKIN' WAAH.

It sounds just like the Holocaust.

Quote
It is possible that the reason such awful groups as ISIS exist is bring us back to righteous observance of God's Holy Word. Guns alone won't defeat these bastards. Only righteous living and proper fear of God will.

What a loving god that we must needs fear him to live well.

Quote
Then guns will do the rest. We need to purify ourselves, and then go exterminate the fuckers. But we can't do that unless we are pure first. You don't like that, I expect. Tough shit. Sounds like a personal problem to me. Deal with it.

Why can't you murder unless you are pure?  That does not make much sense.  You are right though that I don't like wanton extermination.  If you want to call that a personal problem, I am happy to find a psychiatrist and let them decide who has issues, you or me.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 24, 2014, 07:50:44 PM

Cavemen were not likely to care, being more concerned with immediate needs of survival.

Still making things up that you don't know?

Quote

Stupid response.

But a distinction anyway.

Do you know what the phrase even means?

Quote

Your response serves no purpose.

Unnecessary. God took care of that.

The Jews did, by committing genocide.

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Ah, whatever.

Well, we are still here. They are not.

And no one cares about your claim.

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We do, and we have enforced our claim. You don't like it, deal with it. No one cares what you think. Israel is here to stay.

A distinction, nontheless.

Look up what the phrase means.  Seriously.

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A stupid response.

Irrelevant.

We are talking about ownership aren't we?  Seems pretty germane actually.

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Not really.


Irrelevant.

Only if you want to live in denial.

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Ah, whatever that means.

We are still here.

And still making up stories about God.  *yawn*

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Another stupid response.

Yes, it does. You ought to read the thing.

Not what I meant, but it does not matter.

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Ad hominem.

I was not making an argument, just pointing how terrible the history of the Jews is.

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Given that EVERY single group on Earth has at one point exterminated somebody, I don't feel too bad. At least the Jews did it to people who essentially asked for it.

Again, No sane person during the Crusades on either side went there to stay. They went to fight, and go home with honour. Did an American go to Japan in the "40's to stay?

Again, what does that have to do with the fact of ownership?

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Your point?

But again, not to live in.

Again, what does that have to do with the fact of ownership?

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Your point?

Whatever.

Whatever whatever.

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But they want to.

But they have to.

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Irrelevant.

What natives. "Palestinians" are not natives.

Neither are Jews.  The Canaanites were more native than the Jews.

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Ordered out, or eliminated by command of God. Problem solved. You don't like it? Waah fuckin' waah.

 They are interlopers on land that is not theirs. They always considered themselves part of Syria.

Wait, don't you think Palestinians are descended from the native Canaanites?

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In part. and from Arabs. And the Canaanites didn't belong there after God ordered the Jews to drive them out or eliminate them, so...

My point is that no one ever had prior claims, or wanted to.  Waah fuckin' waah.

I think the Canaanites do.

Not after God ordered their expulsion or extermination. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH Fuckin' Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.


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I am perfectly rational. I understand that there are alternative lifestyles in the world. But what the Canaanites pulled was beyond that. Aside from the fact that they also had Molech worship, such as human sacrifice, and other delightful things. This is confirmed by research outside of Scripture. And no, I am NOT going to go digging for sources. You can easily look this up just as I can. Go pay a visit to your public library.

If you can't prove it, that is fine.  Just withdraw your claim and stop trying to justify the murder of babies.

A stupid response. You are full of them today.

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It was time for God's judgement, and no one gets out of that. I'm sorry, but shit happens. In fact, if the United States keeps going on her wayward path, I expect we will also face divine wrath and judgement, and I likewise expect that it won't be pretty. And guess what? IT WON'T BE PRETTY. SHIT HAPPENS. WAAH FUCKIN' WAAH.

It sounds just like the Holocaust.

Whatever.

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It is possible that the reason such awful groups as ISIS exist is bring us back to righteous observance of God's Holy Word. Guns alone won't defeat these bastards. Only righteous living and proper fear of God will.

What a loving god that we must needs fear him to live well.

And what a fool you are for not realising that humans should not act the fool, and deny the will of Creator, and violate even the basic Laws of Noah. Humanity has violated every shred of decency left to us. God WILL get his. He is a God of mercy, but one of Justice also. Those of you who fail to acknowledge that are the fools. I suggest growing up.

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Then guns will do the rest. We need to purify ourselves, and then go exterminate the fuckers. But we can't do that unless we are pure first. You don't like that, I expect. Tough shit. Sounds like a personal problem to me. Deal with it.

Why can't you murder unless you are pure?  That does not make much sense.  You are right though that I don't like wanton extermination.  If you want to call that a personal problem, I am happy to find a psychiatrist and let them decide who has issues, you or me.

A psychiatrist would most likely be as twisted in the head as you are, and probably consider himself the master of all he surveys, just as you do. In other words, he, like you, would probably try to play God, at least, any psychiatrist you would recommend. So no, I don't think so.

Again, waah fuckin' waah.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 24, 2014, 07:56:58 PM
Yet another top-quality Yaakov rebuttal.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 24, 2014, 08:29:36 PM
I actually don't know how to respond.  Literally.  He made such a mess of the quotes that I don't know what he is talking about.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 24, 2014, 08:34:59 PM
THAT I admit to. That is why I underlined everything I said. I apologise for that disaster.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 24, 2014, 08:35:59 PM
Actually, that is not what I said at all. What I said is that they all heard him speak. They did NOT necessarily understand what they heard. Again, your failure to comprehend the English language is your problem, not mine. I recommend basic literacy courses.
If you heard a norwegian speak, you'd have no idea what was said in your language, but you'd know what the words were.  Or at least the sounds.  And since Moses was writing all this AFTER it happened AND with God telling him to write it, the omission of the actual words are fairly considerable.  There is no reason to omit them.

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MOSES SPOKE TO GOD. GOD THEN SPOKE TO MOSES. "19:19 And when the voice of the horn waxed louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him by a voice."  The words may not have been intended for anyone other than Moses himself. It may have been that the Hebrews were intended to hear the voice, but not what it said.
Sam spoke to his Dog.  Dog then spoke to Sam.
See what I did there?

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That is not what I said. One can recognise a voice but not know what it says. If I speak a bastardised French Creole and hear crisp Parisian French, I WILL hear a voice. But I may not understand what I am hearing. Do you not comprehend basic English when it is written? Perhaps your literacy needs to be re-evaluated?
1. Who cares about understanding.  If God said "Urala sa kuuurash!" I'd write it the fuck down, wouldn't you?  And since Moses was writing this after God said it, there shouldn't be any problem in putting what was said.

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I am not admitting to being a schmuck at all. I am simply saying that anyone who says that variables don't exist is a schmuck. I have admitted that variables do exist. You are the one that says they don't. Ergo...
... .what variables?  You haven't spoken about ANY variables and have, in fact, regarded your work of text as factual.  Unchanging.  Not a variable.  And any time I introduce complications you literally don't care.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 24, 2014, 08:42:56 PM
Actually, that is not what I said at all. What I said is that they all heard him speak. They did NOT necessarily understand what they heard. Again, your failure to comprehend the English language is your problem, not mine. I recommend basic literacy courses.
If you heard a norwegian speak, you'd have no idea what was said in your language, but you'd know what the words were.  Or at least the sounds.  And since Moses was writing all this AFTER it happened AND with God telling him to write it, the omission of the actual words are fairly considerable.  There is no reason to omit them.

How do you know God told him to write what he said to him on that occasion?

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MOSES SPOKE TO GOD. GOD THEN SPOKE TO MOSES. "19:19 And when the voice of the horn waxed louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him by a voice."  The words may not have been intended for anyone other than Moses himself. It may have been that the Hebrews were intended to hear the voice, but not what it said.
Sam spoke to his Dog.  Dog then spoke to Sam.
See what I did there?

That is just a thoroughly stupid response, since God can speak, but dogs cannot.

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That is not what I said. One can recognise a voice but not know what it says. If I speak a bastardised French Creole and hear crisp Parisian French, I WILL hear a voice. But I may not understand what I am hearing. Do you not comprehend basic English when it is written? Perhaps your literacy needs to be re-evaluated?
1. Who cares about understanding.  If God said "Urala sa kuuurash!" I'd write it the fuck down, wouldn't you?  And since Moses was writing this after God said it, there shouldn't be any problem in putting what was said.

Why would Moses write it down. Maybe it concerned no one other than God and Moses himself.

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I am not admitting to being a schmuck at all. I am simply saying that anyone who says that variables don't exist is a schmuck. I have admitted that variables do exist. You are the one that says they don't. Ergo...
... .what variables?  You haven't spoken about ANY variables and have, in fact, regarded your work of text as factual.  Unchanging.  Not a variable.  And any time I introduce complications you literally don't care.

The variables about which I am speaking are not calling the text into question. They simply are acknowledging that questions of language, ie, who was speaking what language to whom, who was answering in what language, who heard a voice clearly, who heard it indistinctly, etc, are definitely present, and you are failing to acknowledge that. That makes you, in my mind at least, a schmuck.

Well, its been fun, but I have other responsibilities. I'll see you all tonight, or tomorrow. Ciao for now!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 24, 2014, 09:05:35 PM
Actually, that is not what I said at all. What I said is that they all heard him speak. They did NOT necessarily understand what they heard. Again, your failure to comprehend the English language is your problem, not mine. I recommend basic literacy courses.
If you heard a norwegian speak, you'd have no idea what was said in your language, but you'd know what the words were.  Or at least the sounds.  And since Moses was writing all this AFTER it happened AND with God telling him to write it, the omission of the actual words are fairly considerable.  There is no reason to omit them.
How do you know God told him to write what he said to him on that occasion?
He told him to write everything else.  Seems like a really weird thing to omit.

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MOSES SPOKE TO GOD. GOD THEN SPOKE TO MOSES. "19:19 And when the voice of the horn waxed louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him by a voice."  The words may not have been intended for anyone other than Moses himself. It may have been that the Hebrews were intended to hear the voice, but not what it said.
Sam spoke to his Dog.  Dog then spoke to Sam.
See what I did there?
That is just a thoroughly stupid response, since God can speak, but dogs cannot.

Yes they can.  Haven't you ever heard a dog Bark?  The command most commonly used to incite a single bark is: Speak.



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Why would Moses write it down. Maybe it concerned no one other than God and Moses himself.
So the first words God spoke that the people of Israel heard were never recorded?  How odd.
In fact, I'm seeing a very firm lack of anything God actually said to the 2 million Jews.  He said a lot to Moses but none to them. 


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The variables about which I am speaking are not calling the text into question. They simply are acknowledging that questions of language, ie, who was speaking what language to whom, who was answering in what language, who heard a voice clearly, who heard it indistinctly, etc, are definitely present, and you are failing to acknowledge that. That makes you, in my mind at least, a schmuck.
Oh I'm not failing at that.  I'm failing to understand why the all powerful God who was SPEAKING FROM A MOUNTAIN TOP would have a voice that Moses could understand clearly but the people standing mere feet away could not.  Especially when God was trying to prove himself for Moses's sake.  You'd think he would have just made his voice (which did not require physics BTW) to be heard and understood by everyone.

The more "evidence" you show me, the more this sounds like a sham.

"You heard the voice of God right?  That mubling, rumbling sound?  That was him talking to me. "
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 24, 2014, 09:24:49 PM
l2quotepls
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 24, 2014, 10:08:57 PM
He told him to write everything else.  Seems like a really weird thing to omit.

Did he? How do you know?

Yes they can.  Haven't you ever heard a dog Bark?  The command most commonly used to incite a single bark is: Speak.

What is your point?




So the first words God spoke that the people of Israel heard were never recorded?  How odd.
In fact, I'm seeing a very firm lack of anything God actually said to the 2 million Jews.  He said a lot to Moses but none to them. 

He said that Moses would speak to him, and he would respond to Moses, and the people would hear his voice. He said nothing about them hearing what he said. I've quoted the passage several times. Reread it, again.

Oh I'm not failing at that.  I'm failing to understand why the all powerful God who was SPEAKING FROM A MOUNTAIN TOP would have a voice that Moses could understand clearly but the people standing mere feet away could not.  Especially when God was trying to prove himself for Moses's sake.  You'd think he would have just made his voice (which did not require physics BTW) to be heard and understood by everyone.

The more "evidence" you show me, the more this sounds like a sham.

"You heard the voice of God right?  That mubling, rumbling sound?  That was him talking to me. "

As I said, there are variables. Was God speaking in Hebrew? Was Moses? What were the Hebrews themselves speaking? Probably a bastardised Hebrew-Egyptian. Even the ones who DID hear it probably had no clue what was said. And even if they did, they likely had no way of writing it, since Moses was probably the only one who knew HOW to write, being the only one with any real education at all. You need to stop and think before opening your yap.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 24, 2014, 10:11:57 PM
l2quotepls

Might be better if he just stops using the quote function altogether, because he obviously doesn't understand how it works.


[ quote=yer name ] this is a quote. anything inside these two boxes is quoted material. your reponses should [ /quote]

go outside the boxes. like this.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 24, 2014, 10:14:34 PM
**GRIN* I understand it, but it is a bitch to work with. This website is NOT exactly user friendly. Oh, well. As long as I get my point across, that is what matters.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 24, 2014, 11:26:45 PM
Are you using a computer with a keyboard and mouse? Then it's fine. Shit, it's even easy enough to handle on touch devices, it just takes longer.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 25, 2014, 12:22:42 AM
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He told him to write everything else.  Seems like a really weird thing to omit.
Did he? How do you know?
Because it's the written history of your people and the single most important event in their history?

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Yes they can.  Haven't you ever heard a dog Bark?  The command most commonly used to incite a single bark is: Speak.
What is your point?
That Dogs speak.


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So the first words God spoke that the people of Israel heard were never recorded?  How odd.
In fact, I'm seeing a very firm lack of anything God actually said to the 2 million Jews.  He said a lot to Moses but none to them. 
He said that Moses would speak to him, and he would respond to Moses, and the people would hear his voice. He said nothing about them hearing what he said. I've quoted the passage several times. Reread it, again.
Boy it's a good thing the scribe of this entire history is also the only person who who heard it.  You seem to keep avoiding that. 

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Oh I'm not failing at that.  I'm failing to understand why the all powerful God who was SPEAKING FROM A MOUNTAIN TOP would have a voice that Moses could understand clearly but the people standing mere feet away could not.  Especially when God was trying to prove himself for Moses's sake.  You'd think he would have just made his voice (which did not require physics BTW) to be heard and understood by everyone.

The more "evidence" you show me, the more this sounds like a sham.

"You heard the voice of God right?  That mubling, rumbling sound?  That was him talking to me. "
As I said, there are variables. Was God speaking in Hebrew? Was Moses? What were the Hebrews themselves speaking? Probably a bastardised Hebrew-Egyptian. Even the ones who DID hear it probably had no clue what was said. And even if they did, they likely had no way of writing it, since Moses was probably the only one who knew HOW to write, being the only one with any real education at all. You need to stop and think before opening your yap.
Wait... YOU, of all people, are telling me that NOW the details are important?  I'm sensing a pattern here...

So a couple of things.
1. Since Moses was the only one to write anything down AND the only one who understood God, it's irrelevant what everyone lese wrote.  THEY didn't get their words in.
2. Writing is irrelevant.  See: The Oral Torah.  You know, that 4,000 year old verbal history that would have required no writing skills to add to (like adding in the sounds God made).

You really need to stop and think about what you're saying and what you've previously said.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 25, 2014, 03:55:09 AM
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He told him to write everything else.  Seems like a really weird thing to omit.
Did he? How do you know?
Because it's the written history of your people and the single most important event in their history?

I'll agree that hearing his voice, and seeing him, is the most important event in our history, but not necessarily hearing what he said.

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Yes they can.  Haven't you ever heard a dog Bark?  The command most commonly used to incite a single bark is: Speak.
What is your point?
That Dogs speak.

And that is relevant how?

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So the first words God spoke that the people of Israel heard were never recorded?  How odd.
In fact, I'm seeing a very firm lack of anything God actually said to the 2 million Jews.  He said a lot to Moses but none to them. 
He said that Moses would speak to him, and he would respond to Moses, and the people would hear his voice. He said nothing about them hearing what he said. I've quoted the passage several times. Reread it, again.
Boy it's a good thing the scribe of this entire history is also the only person who who heard it.  You seem to keep avoiding that.

Your point being? 

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Oh I'm not failing at that.  I'm failing to understand why the all powerful God who was SPEAKING FROM A MOUNTAIN TOP would have a voice that Moses could understand clearly but the people standing mere feet away could not.  Especially when God was trying to prove himself for Moses's sake.  You'd think he would have just made his voice (which did not require physics BTW) to be heard and understood by everyone.

The more "evidence" you show me, the more this sounds like a sham.

"You heard the voice of God right?  That mubling, rumbling sound?  That was him talking to me. "
As I said, there are variables. Was God speaking in Hebrew? Was Moses? What were the Hebrews themselves speaking? Probably a bastardised Hebrew-Egyptian. Even the ones who DID hear it probably had no clue what was said. And even if they did, they likely had no way of writing it, since Moses was probably the only one who knew HOW to write, being the only one with any real education at all. You need to stop and think before opening your yap.
Wait... YOU, of all people, are telling me that NOW the details are important?  I'm sensing a pattern here...

So a couple of things.
1. Since Moses was the only one to write anything down AND the only one who understood God, it's irrelevant what everyone lese wrote.  THEY didn't get their words in.
2. Writing is irrelevant.  See: The Oral Torah.  You know, that 4,000 year old verbal history that would have required no writing skills to add to (like adding in the sounds God made).

The Oral Torah was given to Moses on the Mountain Top. Along with that Written Torah. Do you not comprehend the words that are coming from my keyboard?

You really need to stop and think about what you're saying and what you've previously said.

Man, you seriously need psychological guidance, and possibly meds.


Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 25, 2014, 03:58:12 AM
Well, the quoting is messed up, AGAIN, but the point is clear. I think I am just going to go back to the original way I used to do it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on October 25, 2014, 05:01:40 AM
Are you using a computer with a keyboard and mouse? Then it's fine. Shit, it's even easy enough to handle on touch devices, it just takes longer.

No, Yonah is posting from an electrical telegraph.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 26, 2014, 12:11:25 AM
Ultimately, my friends, it comes down to the following thoughts, to whit:

I. The Ancient Hebrews came into being in the Bronze Age, worshipping what they perceived to be a primitive war God known to them as El, which was essentially the same Deity that many other Mesopotamian peoples worshipped.

II. The Ancient Hebrews did come into being precisely because said war God was in fact the True One God of the Universe, who created the universe, and all that therein lies.

III. Through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (whose name God changed to Israel), a Covenant was established, that ultimately settled into the 12 sons of Israel.

IV. The 12 sons of Israel took themselves and their families into Egypt, wherein they all died, but their descendants were made slaves.

V. Moses led his people out of Egypt with Aaron his brother.

These are basics. You can agree or disagree all you wish. But to be blunt, there is no smoking gun that will prove this historical sketch right or wrong. So, arguing about it is essentially a mental masturbation technique that ultimately serves no purpose whatsoever.

Now, let us continue.

VI. The Hebrews, by now known more commonly as Israelites, have roamed in the desert for 40 years, until the entire generation who knew slavery has died off, including Moses. Only Joshua remains alive from those days (and possibly Caleb; his birthdate is uncertain).

VII. Upon entering the Holy Land (ie, the crossing of the Jordan River), all hell breaks loose. God orders the Israelites to do what, by our standards of the 21st Century, would be deemed as horrifically atrocious acts. That these acts were committed can't be denied, and anyone who does is a fool.

VIII.What must be remembered is that this was the BRONZE AGE! How do you expect people to behave? Furthermore, what do you expect people to understand in the behaviour of other people? I mean, seriously. If the Israelites had behaved any gentler than they did, they would have been the ones ending up with their heads on pikes!

So lets not all sit around and imagine that a bunch of Bronze Agers are going to sit around a fucking campfire with one another and sing a camp song like "Kum bay ya". Maybe you are willing to be that fucking naive and stupid, but I am damn sure not. I left that kind of pie in the sky idealism behind ALONG time ago, when I grew from childhood to manhood. Little boys must needs grow up.

I don't like genocide any more than the rest of you. I certainly would not approve of it today. But in the Bronze Age? It went with the territory. That's what people understood. In fact, that usually was the ONLY thing people understood. Shit happened, man, and you learned to live with it. Life was brutish, nasty, and short.

And guess what? In spite of the UN (what a stupid joke that is), things haven't changed that much, have they?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 26, 2014, 12:49:40 AM
I think we have made it clear that we expect people being commanded by the very source of morality to behave much much better than is shown. If there was evidence against God then this is it. It's this conundrum that forces apologists to make up ridiculous theories like "divine command theory". You are crazy for excusing it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on October 26, 2014, 01:26:41 AM
So wait, God's message is irrelevant and the only important thing is that he was seen and heard?  Doesn't that make the Torah irrelevant then?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 26, 2014, 01:47:47 AM
I think we have made it clear that we expect people being commanded by the very source of morality to behave much much better than is shown. If there was evidence against God then this is it. It's this conundrum that forces apologists to make up ridiculous theories like "divine command theory". You are crazy for excusing it.

Like I said, if you want your head on a pike, you are welcome to it. But had you lived then, you would have done EXACTLY as they they did. And don't tell me you wouldn't have, or I'll laugh in your face.

So wait, God's message is irrelevant and the only important thing is that he was seen and heard?  Doesn't that make the Torah irrelevant then?

I did not say that. Moses received the Torah from God and wrote it. And of course there was Oral Torah. The people accepted it when they received it from Moses. But they knew its value because they had seen and heard God. You people are really more obtuse than I realised. I mean, wow.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 26, 2014, 01:15:31 PM
I think we have made it clear that we expect people being commanded by the very source of morality to behave much much better than is shown. If there was evidence against God then this is it. It's this conundrum that forces apologists to make up ridiculous theories like "divine command theory". You are crazy for excusing it.

Like I said, if you want your head on a pike, you are welcome to it. But had you lived then, you would have done EXACTLY as they they did. And don't tell me you wouldn't have, or I'll laugh in your face.

If this is purely a Brinze Age issue, what changed in God that made him decide genocide should not be commanded anymore?  What makes you think he won't command it again?

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 26, 2014, 01:46:07 PM
I'll agree that hearing his voice, and seeing him, is the most important event in our history, but not necessarily hearing what he said.


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And that is relevant how?
You claimed they don't.  I proved you wrong.  My analogy works.
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Your point being? 
That Moses could have put what God said into either of the two things he wrote down but didn't.  In fact, he could have very very easily put them in.  Doesn't it seem odd to you that he didn't? It would be like if NASA decided not to broadcast the moon landing and instead just announced "We're on the moon and walking around."
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The Oral Torah was given to Moses on the Mountain Top. Along with that Written Torah. Do you not comprehend the words that are coming from my keyboard?
No, the Oral Torah was dictated to Moses on the Mountain Top.  But my point is that if the Oral Torah, which is passed by word of mouth, can survive for 4,000 years, why didn't the first words God said to the Jews also survive?  Even if no one understood it, don't you think every single Jew there remembered the first word God spoke for the rest of their lives?  Or are the actual words of God so uninteresting unless Moses delivers them?
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Man, you seriously need psychological guidance, and possibly meds.
This is a logical fallacy but I'm going to say it anyway:
So far no one here is agreeing with you.  Not even the other Jews of the forum.  Your arguments have constantly been challenged and no one seems to be disagreeing with the challenge.  We also point out your double standards when you try to make your case.  Yet despite this you are completely incapable of doubting anything you say and have gone so far as to insult me for following without question but then praise yourself for following without question. (or an answer, if you did have a question)

Doesn't that make you wonder if you are really as correct as you think?  Doesn't that make you question why you're so devoted to a book that has such glaring questions?  As I said before, God himself could not change your mind.  This is most commonly called brainwashing and often requires psychological guidance.  Are you really sure I need it?  Because I'm not the one who accepts a 4,000 year old story as fact when it's missing some very key details.  I'm not the one accepting "God wants us to figure it out ourselves" when we question the rules.  I'm also not the one who claims to have an answer (like about eating pork) but then ignores the fact that the answer is irrelevant in today's modern age and considers it "icky" simply because your holy book says so.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 26, 2014, 04:16:42 PM
I think we have made it clear that we expect people being commanded by the very source of morality to behave much much better than is shown. If there was evidence against God then this is it. It's this conundrum that forces apologists to make up ridiculous theories like "divine command theory". You are crazy for excusing it.

Like I said, if you want your head on a pike, you are welcome to it. But had you lived then, you would have done EXACTLY as they they did. And don't tell me you wouldn't have, or I'll laugh in your face.

If this is purely a Brinze Age issue, what changed in God that made him decide genocide should not be commanded anymore?  What makes you think he won't command it again?

Read the Hebrew Bible. The book goes from a very narrow understanding of God to a very universal understanding of him. The idea of a universal deity commanding a genocide is incomprehensible. I recommend particularly Isaiah, and the later Prophets.

I'll agree that hearing his voice, and seeing him, is the most important event in our history, but not necessarily hearing what he said.


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And that is relevant how?
You claimed they don't.  I proved you wrong.  My analogy works.
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You didn't prove anything, but if that makes you feel better, ok.
Your point being? 
That Moses could have put what God said into either of the two things he wrote down but didn't.  In fact, he could have very very easily put them in.  Doesn't it seem odd to you that he didn't? It would be like if NASA decided not to broadcast the moon landing and instead just announced "We're on the moon and walking around."
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Not particularly. Given that Torah means "Instruction", and what God said on that occasion was probably not "Instruction" or "Teaching" in any way, why would he?

The Oral Torah was given to Moses on the Mountain Top. Along with that Written Torah. Do you not comprehend the words that are coming from my keyboard?

No, the Oral Torah was dictated to Moses on the Mountain Top.  But my point is that if the Oral Torah, which is passed by word of mouth, can survive for 4,000 years, why didn't the first words God said to the Jews also survive?  Even if no one understood it, don't you think every single Jew there remembered the first word God spoke for the rest of their lives?  Or are the actual words of God so uninteresting unless Moses delivers them?


If something is not understood, and you don't know how to write in the first place, how are you going to write it down? You are full of brilliance today.

Quote

Man, you seriously need psychological guidance, and possibly meds.

This is a logical fallacy but I'm going to say it anyway:
So far no one here is agreeing with you.  Not even the other Jews of the forum. 

There are no other Jews in the forum, at least not religious ones. So, your point?

Your arguments have constantly been challenged and no one seems to be disagreeing with the challenge.  We also point out your double standards when you try to make your case.  Yet despite this you are completely incapable of doubting anything you say and have gone so far as to insult me for following without question but then praise yourself for following without question. (or an answer, if you did have a question)

Doesn't that make you wonder if you are really as correct as you think?  Doesn't that make you question why you're so devoted to a book that has such glaring questions? 

It only has glaring questions if you have less than about a 5th grade education.

As I said before, God himself could not change your mind.  This is most commonly called brainwashing and often requires psychological guidance. 

As I have said before, I shall say again. The Jews as a people have been around, and will be around, long before and long after you and your ilk have come and gone from the stage of history and been forgotten. Who is the the brainwashed one? The one who thinks he is the master of all he surveys because Richard Dawkins told him he was, or the one who admits that there is a power greater than himself to which he should submit in humility?

Are you really sure I need it?  Because I'm not the one who accepts a 4,000 year old story as fact when it's missing some very key details.  I'm not the one accepting "God wants us to figure it out ourselves" when we question the rules.  I'm also not the one who claims to have an answer (like about eating pork) but then ignores the fact that the answer is irrelevant in today's modern age and considers it "icky" simply because your holy book says so.

We've been over this. Aside from the health concerns, which are still valid, there is also simply the matter of discipline. Doing it by virtue of the fact that God has asked us to. If you cannot understand that, then how intelligent can you be? Of course, you are an atheist, and therefore deem yourself and your petty wants to be the center of the world. Who is the selfish one?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 26, 2014, 04:41:31 PM
I think we have made it clear that we expect people being commanded by the very source of morality to behave much much better than is shown. If there was evidence against God then this is it. It's this conundrum that forces apologists to make up ridiculous theories like "divine command theory". You are crazy for excusing it.

Like I said, if you want your head on a pike, you are welcome to it. But had you lived then, you would have done EXACTLY as they they did. And don't tell me you wouldn't have, or I'll laugh in your face.

If this is purely a Brinze Age issue, what changed in God that made him decide genocide should not be commanded anymore?  What makes you think he won't command it again?

Read the Hebrew Bible. The book goes from a very narrow understanding of God to a very universal understanding of him. The idea of a universal deity commanding a genocide is incomprehensible. I recommend particularly Isaiah, and the later Prophets.


I agree it is incomprehensible.  How do you reconcile that God did make such a command and that you yourself believes that the command is still in effect (http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=1183.msg47476;topicseen#msg47476), and that it is only the difficulty in showing Palestinians to be Amalekites that saves them from extermination?  Indeed you showed that you were willing to order extermination of them for merely claiming to be natives to Israel (http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=1183.msg42277;topicseen#msg42277).  Are you from the Bronze Age?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 26, 2014, 04:52:55 PM
Why does god insist on playing a big game of telephone? A high school psychology student can tell you that is the best way to give everyone the wrong message. If god wanted everyone to know something, would it really be that much of a bother just to tell everyone himself? Seems sort of convenient one man gets to dictate what god said and no one else can verify it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 26, 2014, 06:51:21 PM
QUOTE OF RAMA SET: "I agree it is incomprehensible.  How do you reconcile that God did make such a command and that you yourself believes that the command is still in effect, and that it is only the difficulty in showing Palestinians to be Amalekites that saves them from extermination?  Indeed you showed that you were willing to order extermination of them for merely claiming to be natives to Israel.  Are you from the Bronze Age?"

Because of the universal nature of God, God is also the God of the "Palestinians". Therefore, although the commandment has not been abolished, I am inclined to believe personally that God would be happier with a controlled deportation rather than extermination. And further, I think the reason there ARE no more Amalekites is simply because God does not WANT his people exterminating ANYONE. As you have all correctly pointed out, unlike in the Bronze Age, we understand that there are better ways to deal with problems then wholesale elimination of a people, however distasteful a people they may be.

Why does god insist on playing a big game of telephone? A high school psychology student can tell you that is the best way to give everyone the wrong message. If god wanted everyone to know something, would it really be that much of a bother just to tell everyone himself? Seems sort of convenient one man gets to dictate what god said and no one else can verify it.

Have you read the Torah (the Pentateuch)? Have you even picked up a copy to determine the length of it? Do you think that God was going to recite the whole thing to all 2 million Hebrews sitting there, and expect them to remember it, when they couldn't even write to take notes? Moses was the only one who could write, presumably. God, talk about a college course and a half! For a bunch of slaves that had virtually no education at all, you expect God to sit them all down for forty days and recite the entire Law to them?

And that doesn't include the Oral Torah. But surely, Moses probably had many questions about one law or other that he had to clarify with God. Can you imagine if 2 million people had had to ask questions and have them answered. It would have taken far longer than forty days! At least with one person, Moses, who received the Law from God directly, it took forty days, and then he could give it to the people, and they could ask questions as they came up.

Furthermore, starting with Ezra, the entire Book of the Law was read every 7 years. All the People of Israel were gathered together and obligated together to hear the Torah read. I am not sure how it was done, I just know that it was. Without modern sound equipment, I am wondering if they gathered in cohorts and had one reader per fifty, or something to that effect. I don't know. I have to explore the matter more thoroughly.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Space Angel on October 26, 2014, 06:57:36 PM
In a time where more and more people are walking away from organized religion, and are becoming more cynical towards the spiritual beliefs based on ancient religions, how do you think Judaism and Jewish traditions will survive the next 100 years (assuming the human race makes it another century)? Also, do you think that the spiritual beliefs are just as important as cultural traditions, or does one trump the other?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 26, 2014, 07:12:58 PM
In a time where more and more people are walking away from organized religion, and are becoming more cynical towards the spiritual beliefs based on ancient religions, how do you think Judaism and Jewish traditions will survive the next 100 years (assuming the human race makes it another century)? Also, do you think that the spiritual beliefs are just as important as cultural traditions, or does one trump the other?

Where in the world are you speaking of? In Western nations, yes, people are turning from organised religion. But in the rest of the world, it is growing by leaps and bounds. I don't know what part of the planet you live in, but it is clearly NOT the global South, unless its Australia or New Zealand.

Roman Catholicism and the Anglican Church (the Church of England) in Africa are HUGE! 70% of Anglicans live in Africa, for example, rather than in say, England or the US, or white countries where you would think it would be obvious (Canada, Australia, or New Zealand). And it is growing there like crazy, as is the Lutheran Church, and the Roman Catholic Church.

Islam, as much as I despise it, is in NO danger of dying out. If anything, the radical forms of it are experiencing growth.

Judaism tends to remain static. About half of all Jews are cultural Jews, and the other half are ethno-religious Jews, such as myself. I see no signs of Judaism dying out, though.

Certainly being a Jew is partially cultural. That can't be disputed. Judaism is a civilisation as much as it is a religion. In fact, Judaism is a civilisation before it is anything else. The Religion is a part (perhaps the largest part, but still a part) of the the broader civilisation. The civilisation is made up of the cultural, ethnic, linguistic, historic, and of course, religious aspects of what it means to be a Jew.

So, I think that Civilisation is the best way to describe being a Jew, and that Religion is the largest component of said Civilisation. For further information on this, I encourage you to read Judaism as a Civilization, by Mordecai M. Kaplan, the master work on the subject. Although published originally in 1934, it has remained in print, and continues to be the "go-to" book on the topic. I can't recommend it enough. It is brilliant.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Space Angel on October 26, 2014, 07:24:07 PM
In a time where more and more people are walking away from organized religion, and are becoming more cynical towards the spiritual beliefs based on ancient religions, how do you think Judaism and Jewish traditions will survive the next 100 years (assuming the human race makes it another century)? Also, do you think that the spiritual beliefs are just as important as cultural traditions, or does one trump the other?

Where in the world are you speaking of? In Western nations, yes, people are turning from organised religion. But in the rest of the world, it is growing by leaps and bounds. I don't know what part of the planet you live in, but it is clearly NOT the global South, unless its Australia or New Zealand.

Roman Catholicism and the Anglican Church (the Church of England) in Africa are HUGE! 70% of Anglicans live in Africa, for example, rather than in say, England or the US, or white countries where you would think it would be obvious (Canada, Australia, or New Zealand). And it is growing there like crazy, as is the Lutheran Church, and the Roman Catholic Church.

Islam, as much as I despise it, is in NO danger of dying out. If anything, the radical forms of it are experiencing growth.

Judaism tends to remain static. About half of all Jews are cultural Jews, and the other half are ethno-religious Jews, such as myself. I see no signs of Judaism dying out, though.

Certainly being a Jew is partially cultural. That can't be disputed. Judaism is a civilisation as much as it is a religion. In fact, Judaism is a civilisation before it is anything else. The Religion is a part (perhaps the largest part, but still a part) of the the broader civilisation. The civilisation is made up of the cultural, ethnic, linguistic, historic, and of course, religious aspects of what it means to be a Jew.

So, I think that Civilisation is the best way to describe being a Jew, and that Religion is the largest component of said Civilisation. For further information on this, I encourage you to read Judaism as a Civilization, by Mordecai M. Kaplan, the master work on the subject. Although published originally in 1934, it has remained in print, and continues to be the "go-to" book on the topic. I can't recommend it enough. It is brilliant.

I live in the US, and although we have our fair share of radicals and extremists here I feel like a good number of North Americans look down on organized religion (although there are compromises like "Faitheism" or like independent spiritual believers who don't follow any one church or set doctrine). 

Do you see expansion of non-Jewish religious institutions around the world as a good thing, or is it doing more harm than good? Like in poorer nations like in Uganda for example where there is a surplus of religions trying to convert the people there to their way of thinking and approaching spirituality; like Roman Catholicism, and the Anglican Church as you mentioned.

Thank you for the article, it seems like an interesting read.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 26, 2014, 07:25:49 PM
I thought they mostly practiced Voodooism in Africa?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Space Angel on October 26, 2014, 07:28:02 PM
I thought they mostly practiced Voodooism in Africa?

I thought voodoo was Haitian in origin, but it looks like it has its roots in Africa.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 26, 2014, 07:28:34 PM
If something is not understood, and you don't know how to write in the first place, how are you going to write it down? You are full of brilliance today.
....
So you're telling me that the Oral Torah is never passed verbally and is always passed by writing?


Quote
There are no other Jews in the forum, at least not religious ones. So, your point?
http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=1928.0 (http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=1928.0)
There are 4.  Grow up and learn to read.

Quote
It only has glaring questions if you have less than about a 5th grade education.
And yet you fail to answer them. 

Quote
As I have said before, I shall say again. The Jews as a people have been around, and will be around, long before and long after you and your ilk have come and gone from the stage of history and been forgotten. Who is the the brainwashed one? The one who thinks he is the master of all he surveys because Richard Dawkins told him he was, or the one who admits that there is a power greater than himself to which he should submit in humility?
Uhhh.... you DO know the definition of brainwashing right?
(PS. Our "ilk" was around before Dawkins existed)

Quote
We've been over this. Aside from the health concerns, which are still valid, there is also simply the matter of discipline. Doing it by virtue of the fact that God has asked us to. If you cannot understand that, then how intelligent can you be? Of course, you are an atheist, and therefore deem yourself and your petty wants to be the center of the world. Who is the selfish one?
God didn't ask you to.  Moses brought a scroll he wrote that said what to do.  You have no proof God actually told you to do these things.  In fact, considering God's track record, if Moses wrote the exact opposite of what God said, you'd still get the written and oral torah given to you because God wouldn't do anything about it.

As for my "petty wants".  No, they are not the center of the world.  Why would you assume that?  I think you're projecting.  After all, Jews are morally and culturally superior to everyone else right?



Also:
According to Yakkov, I am currently more powerful than God.  I can tell BILLIONS of people something all at once.  God can only talk to one person at a time.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 26, 2014, 07:40:42 PM
I thought they mostly practiced Voodooism in Africa?

I thought voodoo was Haitian in origin, but it looks like it has its roots in Africa.

There are actually a few types of Voodoo. I think it originated in West Africa, but there is also Haitian Voodoo.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 26, 2014, 07:54:21 PM
Quote from Space Angel: "I live in the US, and although we have our fair share of radicals and extremists here I feel like a good number of North Americans look down on organized religion (although there are compromises like "Faitheism" or like independent spiritual believers who don't follow any one church or set doctrine). 

Do you see expansion of non-Jewish religious institutions around the world as a good thing, or is it doing more harm than good? Like in poorer nations like in Uganda for example where there is a surplus of religions trying to convert the people there to their way of thinking and approaching spirituality; like Roman Catholicism, and the Anglican Church as you mentioned.

Thank you for the article, it seems like an interesting read.


Actually, its not an article, its a 600 page book. But, you are welcome. As far as non-Jewish religions in the world, we are a non-missionary faith, which I personally think is a mistake. I am of the opinion that the world should be Jewish or Noahide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahidism

However, in the absence of these, any decent moral system is better than none at all.

Voodoo does originate in Africa, and yes, it is practiced there, along with a lot of other indigenous religions.


If something is not understood, and you don't know how to write in the first place, how are you going to write it down? You are full of brilliance today.
....
So you're telling me that the Oral Torah is never passed verbally and is always passed by writing?


Actually, no. I am telling you that the Oral Torah was finally written down in the Talmud LONG after it had passed for about 3000 years orally. But, God's words to Moses which were likely not even said in a language that could be understood by the Hebrews who were former slaves without an education were not Torah.


Quote
There are no other Jews in the forum, at least not religious ones. So, your point?
http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=1928.0 (http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=1928.0)
There are 4.  Grow up and learn to read.

There are three, in addition to myself. Two have already told me they are not religious. The fourth has not said whether he agrees with me or not, and in fact, has said nothing at all. You are the schmuck, not me.

Quote
It only has glaring questions if you have less than about a 5th grade education.
And yet you fail to answer them.

 I've answered them fine. You are just dense.

Quote
As I have said before, I shall say again. The Jews as a people have been around, and will be around, long before and long after you and your ilk have come and gone from the stage of history and been forgotten. Who is the the brainwashed one? The one who thinks he is the master of all he surveys because Richard Dawkins told him he was, or the one who admits that there is a power greater than himself to which he should submit in humility?
Uhhh.... you DO know the definition of brainwashing right?
(PS. Our "ilk" was around before Dawkins existed)

Your ilk is is fairly new. Lets face it, atheism is a fairly new invention.

Quote
We've been over this. Aside from the health concerns, which are still valid, there is also simply the matter of discipline. Doing it by virtue of the fact that God has asked us to. If you cannot understand that, then how intelligent can you be? Of course, you are an atheist, and therefore deem yourself and your petty wants to be the center of the world. Who is the selfish one?
God didn't ask you to.  Moses brought a scroll he wrote that said what to do.  You have no proof God actually told you to do these things.  In fact, considering God's track record, if Moses wrote the exact opposite of what God said, you'd still get the written and oral torah given to you because God wouldn't do anything about it.

Well, since Moses and his brother were able to do some rather interesting things in Egypt, I am inclined to trust them. And since my ancestors did hear God (even if they were unsure of what he said), and they did see him, I take Moses' word for it.

As for my "petty wants".  No, they are not the center of the world.  Why would you assume that?  I think you're projecting.  After all, Jews are morally and culturally superior to everyone else right?

I never said that, except to Gary Greene, and I do believe that referring to him specifically, we are. But as for the rest of the world, I never made that claim. I do believe that we were chosen to bring monotheism to the world, and to be a chosen Priesthood to the world. Read Zechariah 8:23 (and the whole chapter for context) for further information about that).

Also:
According to Yakkov, I am currently more powerful than God.  I can tell BILLIONS of people something all at once.  God can only talk to one person at a time.

No you are not more powerful than God. Rather, you're a bit of a schmuck. God COULD talk to to the whole universe at once if he chose to He chose not to. He chose to talk to Moses, and let the people hear his voice, but not necessarily what he said (since it was in possibly another language, or possibly did not concern them, or any number of different variables. Your batting a thousand today, Genius. Keep it up!

VAUX, you are right about the Voodoo.


Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 26, 2014, 07:57:28 PM
Why did he choose to talk to just one guy?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 26, 2014, 08:17:30 PM
Why did he choose to talk to just one guy?

We've been over that. But, that was the Torah. Throughout or history from Abraham to Malachi, he spoke to far more than just one guy. But with Moses, lets face it: How do you give the Law to 2 million people when it is the length of the first five books of the Hebrew Bible?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on October 26, 2014, 08:24:10 PM
Why did he choose to talk to just one guy?

We've been over that. But, that was the Torah. Throughout or history from Abraham to Malachi, he spoke to far more than just one guy. But with Moses, lets face it: How do you give the Law to 2 million people when it is the length of the first five books of the Hebrew Bible?

Certainly an insurmountable task for the omnipotent being who created the entire universe.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 26, 2014, 08:25:04 PM
Have you read the Torah (the Pentateuch)? Have you even picked up a copy to determine the length of it? Do you think that God was going to recite the whole thing to all 2 million Hebrews sitting there, and expect them to remember it, when they couldn't even write to take notes? Moses was the only one who could write, presumably. God, talk about a college course and a half! For a bunch of slaves that had virtually no education at all, you expect God to sit them all down for forty days and recite the entire Law to them?

Why is god limited to speaking to them at all? An omnipotent being could instill its wishes upon someone without speaking. Even worse, you make it sound like god thought they were all too stupid to talk to. That's pretty low, and something I don't think the old testament god represents, even if he were real, I doubt he would think that. Besides, that sort of logic basically amounts to "anyone that god hasn't talked to is simply too stupid to talk to at all." That would include the entire population of earth, save some few people who either god really did talk to or are just insane.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 26, 2014, 10:40:22 PM
Why did he choose to talk to just one guy?

We've been over that. But, that was the Torah. Throughout or history from Abraham to Malachi, he spoke to far more than just one guy. But with Moses, lets face it: How do you give the Law to 2 million people when it is the length of the first five books of the Hebrew Bible?
I can give the law in easy to follow ways that require no text to over 2 million people.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgAai51hOM0

See?  Youtube.  No text required, illustrated diagrams, and I can put it in any language I want.

God, however, couldn't invent Youtube.  Hence, I am more powerful than him.  (And so is anyone with an internet connection)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 27, 2014, 12:01:35 AM
You didn't invent Youtube either, Dave.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 27, 2014, 12:17:06 AM
You didn't invent Youtube either, Dave.
I'm not claiming to have created existence and be an all powerful being.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on October 27, 2014, 12:43:05 AM
Why couldn't God just explain the laws in such a way that there would be no questions to begin with?  He is God after all, the almighty being who can wish living creatures into existence with no more than a thought.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 27, 2014, 01:38:02 AM
Why did he choose to talk to just one guy?

We've been over that. But, that was the Torah. Throughout or history from Abraham to Malachi, he spoke to far more than just one guy. But with Moses, lets face it: How do you give the Law to 2 million people when it is the length of the first five books of the Hebrew Bible?

Certainly an insurmountable task for the omnipotent being who created the entire universe.

We've been over this. God keeps things within the realm of the understandable for people at the time.


Have you read the Torah (the Pentateuch)? Have you even picked up a copy to determine the length of it? Do you think that God was going to recite the whole thing to all 2 million Hebrews sitting there, and expect them to remember it, when they couldn't even write to take notes? Moses was the only one who could write, presumably. God, talk about a college course and a half! For a bunch of slaves that had virtually no education at all, you expect God to sit them all down for forty days and recite the entire Law to them?

Why is god limited to speaking to them at all? An omnipotent being could instill its wishes upon someone without speaking. Even worse, you make it sound like god thought they were all too stupid to talk to. That's pretty low, and something I don't think the old testament god represents, even if he were real, I doubt he would think that. Besides, that sort of logic basically amounts to "anyone that god hasn't talked to is simply too stupid to talk to at all." That would include the entire population of earth, save some few people who either god really did talk to or are just insane.



Same answer, see above.

Why did he choose to talk to just one guy?

We've been over that. But, that was the Torah. Throughout or history from Abraham to Malachi, he spoke to far more than just one guy. But with Moses, lets face it: How do you give the Law to 2 million people when it is the length of the first five books of the Hebrew Bible?
I can give the law in easy to follow ways that require no text to over 2 million people.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgAai51hOM0

See?  Youtube.  No text required, illustrated diagrams, and I can put it in any language I want.

God, however, couldn't invent Youtube.  Hence, I am more powerful than him.  (And so is anyone with an internet connection)


Same answer, see above.


Why couldn't God just explain the laws in such a way that there would be no questions to begin with?  He is God after all, the almighty being who can wish living creatures into existence with no more than a thought.


This is at least a legitimate question, unlike the others. All of you are batting a thousand today, in terms of being obtuse, except Duck here, to whom I'll give some credit.

I think the fact that the Law was what was would invariably cause questions in a people. I mean, seriously, if you were a slave mentality person, and you were taught a law that made you a free person, and not only that, a child of God, and a God's Chosen People, wouldn't you have questions? And if God were to just put it there some how, wouldn't that be a bit of a mind-fuck? I think that again, God has to work with what is. He can't completely fuck with people's minds. That would make them other than what they are, ie, NOT human in some sense.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 27, 2014, 01:41:33 AM
We've been over this. God keeps things within the realm of the understandable for people at the time.

An omnipotent being is not limited to "things within the realm of the understandable." What you're saying is just a rehash explanation of what you think happened, not a reason why. I find Moses being the only person to hear god just as suspicious as a I find the Mormons thinking their prophet read from golden angel tablets in a hat.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 27, 2014, 01:58:58 AM
Its not a question of maturity. Its a question of ability. Moses had the ability. The others didn't. Incidentally, neither did Joseph Smith, with a fifth grade education, if he was lucky. And remember, Moses did NOT have the slave mentality, unlike the others. He had been raised in the Pharaoh's court.

Nor am I suggested that God is limited to anything. I am suggested that he might have found it a good idea not to pull a mindfuck on people.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 27, 2014, 02:01:14 AM
Its not a question of maturity. Its a question of ability. Moses had the ability. The others didn't. Incidentally, neither did Joseph Smith, with a fifth grade education, if he was lucky. And remember, Moses did NOT have the slave mentality, unlike the others. He had been raised in the Pharaoh's court.

Nor am I suggested that God is limited to anything. I am suggested that he might have found it a good idea not to pull a mindfuck on people.

But the only real difference between Moses and Joseph Smith is that you, personally, choose to believe Moses but not Joseph Smith. The current Mormon population alone is proof one man can trick an awful lot of people. Scientology shows this as well. It seems your only defense of this is that you can put your nose in the air and say that your god is better than theirs. Who are you to honestly say their prophet is any less prophetic than yours?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 27, 2014, 02:41:55 AM
Its not a question of maturity. Its a question of ability. Moses had the ability. The others didn't. Incidentally, neither did Joseph Smith, with a fifth grade education, if he was lucky. And remember, Moses did NOT have the slave mentality, unlike the others. He had been raised in the Pharaoh's court.

Nor am I suggested that God is limited to anything. I am suggested that he might have found it a good idea not to pull a mindfuck on people.

But the only real difference between Moses and Joseph Smith is that you, personally, choose to believe Moses but not Joseph Smith. The current Mormon population alone is proof one man can trick an awful lot of people. Scientology shows this as well. It seems your only defense of this is that you can put your nose in the air and say that your god is better than theirs. Who are you to honestly say their prophet is any less prophetic than yours?


Finally, SOMEONE with a legitimate question! Damn, I thought I was never going to find one, although Space Angel had a few decent ones. I think to answer that question, I would have to point to the accomplishments of said prophet. Now, it is, of course, up to you to accept those or deny them. Of course, with Joseph Smith, you have to admit that he built on work that Moses was responsible for. So he was hardly original. Also, if you read the material he claims to have "received", literarily, it is inferior to even the New Testament, let alone the Hebrew Bible.

But ultimately, only you can make the choice. And your question, at least , is a fair one. I don't have a round answer for you.  The above is the best I can give you. Granted, L. Wrong Hubbard (oh, did I say that?) was simply a blithering idiot, as most people are aware, no matter how much they may disagree with each other. So I won't even go there, but there you are.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 27, 2014, 03:17:35 AM
Tolkien wrote the best pre-history fantasy. The Bible is boring garbage written by hateful idiots, for hateful idiots.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 27, 2014, 03:22:35 AM
Except that Tolkien himself subscribed to the Bible, as a devout Latin Mass going Roman Catholic, even after they started celebrating in the vernacular. He would sit, and loudly respond in Latin, given that he hated the vernacular so much. He was always an EXTREMELY hard-core Roman Catholic, his entire life. In fact, he belonged to a literary group that included CS Lewis and several others, all Anglicans and Roman Catholics, all devout, all fantasy writers. It was called the Inklings, as they all had an inkling of what the perfect England would be like. And it always included belief in God.

You people are a hoot. You make comments like that, not realising that by saying things of that nature, you are simply making asses of yourselves. Trust me, these men were far more devout then you will ever comprehend. They would have laughed, and in fact did laugh, at atheism whenever the subject came up. They thought it was a joke, and a bad one at that.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 27, 2014, 03:27:33 AM
Except that Tolkien himself subscribed to the Bible, as a devout Latin Mass going Roman Catholic, even after they started celebrating in the vernacular. He would sit, and loudly respond in Latin, given that he hated the vernacular so much. He was always an EXTREMELY hard-core Roman Catholic, his entire life. In fact, he belonged to a literary group that included CS Lewis and several others, all Anglicans and Roman Catholics, all devout, all fantasy writers. It was called the Inklings, as they all had an inkling of what the perfect England would be like. And it always included belief in God.

You people are a hoot. You make comments like that, not realising that by saying things of that nature, you are simply making asses of yourselves. Trust me, these men were far more devout then you will ever comprehend. They would have laughed, and in fact did laugh, at atheism whenever the subject came up. They thought it was a joke, and a bad one at that.

epic strawman bro
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 27, 2014, 03:29:18 AM
GRINNING. Not at all. I simply state a fact. You make an Appeal to Authority, which is a logical fallacy in and of itself, and then you choose the wrong authority?! Not too bright. Tolkien would have laughed at you if you had tried to quote him to support your position. And he might have punched you in the nose. Or as least sued your sorry ass self.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 27, 2014, 03:47:55 AM
GRINNING. Not at all. I simply state a fact. You make an Appeal to Authority, which is a logical fallacy in and of itself, and then you choose the wrong authority?! Not too bright. Tolkien would have laughed at you if you had tried to quote him to support your position. And he might have punched you in the nose. Or as least sued your sorry ass self.

Because you seem to have missed it: Tolkien's personal beliefs don't have anything to do with his Legendarium being significantly better than the Bible.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 27, 2014, 03:55:28 AM
Of course, that's a matter of personal opinion, and about 1 billion 15 million persons alive TODAY seem to disagree with you, as did he. And that doesn't include all the people who lived and died BEFORE the ones currently living. You are more and more of schmuck every time you you open your yap. But continue, please. I enjoy being amused. I don't know of anyone who is willing to die for believing in Tolkien's admittedly interesting work. I know a lot of people who would be willing to die for their Faith, Jewish or Christian.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 27, 2014, 04:46:28 AM
QUOTE OF RAMA SET: "I agree it is incomprehensible.  How do you reconcile that God did make such a command and that you yourself believes that the command is still in effect, and that it is only the difficulty in showing Palestinians to be Amalekites that saves them from extermination?  Indeed you showed that you were willing to order extermination of them for merely claiming to be natives to Israel.  Are you from the Bronze Age?"

Because of the universal nature of God, God is also the God of the "Palestinians". Therefore, although the commandment has not been abolished, I am inclined to believe personally that God would be happier with a controlled deportation rather than extermination. And further, I think the reason there ARE no more Amalekites is simply because God does not WANT his people exterminating ANYONE. As you have all correctly pointed out, unlike in the Bronze Age, we understand that there are better ways to deal with problems then wholesale elimination of a people, however distasteful a people they may be.

Except I am not talking about what we understand, I am talking about God's commandment.  It was pretty unequivoical:

Quote from: Samuel 15:2-10
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

So yes, while I agree that there are obviously better ways to deal with Palestinians, the point is that your God is so barbaric and hateful that he, as the source of all morality, sentences all Amalek babies to be slain only because of an accident of birth.  It is undeniable that your God is utterly immoral and evil.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 27, 2014, 04:49:01 AM
God commanded you slay dat ass.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 27, 2014, 04:56:48 AM
QUOTE OF RAMA SET: "I agree it is incomprehensible.  How do you reconcile that God did make such a command and that you yourself believes that the command is still in effect, and that it is only the difficulty in showing Palestinians to be Amalekites that saves them from extermination?  Indeed you showed that you were willing to order extermination of them for merely claiming to be natives to Israel.  Are you from the Bronze Age?"

Because of the universal nature of God, God is also the God of the "Palestinians". Therefore, although the commandment has not been abolished, I am inclined to believe personally that God would be happier with a controlled deportation rather than extermination. And further, I think the reason there ARE no more Amalekites is simply because God does not WANT his people exterminating ANYONE. As you have all correctly pointed out, unlike in the Bronze Age, we understand that there are better ways to deal with problems then wholesale elimination of a people, however distasteful a people they may be.

Except I am not talking about what we understand, I am talking about God's commandment.  It was pretty unequivoical:

Quote from: Samuel 15:2-10
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

So yes, while I agree that there are obviously better ways to deal with Palestinians, the point is that your God is so barbaric and hateful that he, as the source of all morality, sentences all Amalek babies to be slain only because of an accident of birth.  It is undeniable that your God is utterly immoral and evil.

However, I would contrast that with two things. 1, the fact that Amalekites no longer exist. This is an act of the same God that commanded their very destruction. He found a far better way to do it than genocide. Rather, he bred them out of existence. 2, I think he did this because of the text that you read later in the Hebrew Scriptures. Again I refer you to Isaiah and the Minor Prophets. Nation shall not rise up against nation, and neither shall mankind again know war. And they shall beat their swords in the plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks. And later in the the text (Malachi, I think, unless its Micah, I am running off memory here), Justice, justice ye shall pursue!

The God of the Hebrew Bible was able to ultimately save the Amalekites through peacefully breeding them out of existence to the point where fighting them would be impossible. Sounds pretty smart to me. Therefore, he at the same time doesn't break his promise to the Israelites. His commandments are eternal, even that one, but in that case, it can't be exercised, so the brutality is avoided as well. Two birds with one stone, eh?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 27, 2014, 05:45:42 AM
Surely God could have given the others the abililty to understand as well, and not just Moses. I mean, he's God. R-right??
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 27, 2014, 05:50:26 AM
QUOTE OF RAMA SET: "I agree it is incomprehensible.  How do you reconcile that God did make such a command and that you yourself believes that the command is still in effect, and that it is only the difficulty in showing Palestinians to be Amalekites that saves them from extermination?  Indeed you showed that you were willing to order extermination of them for merely claiming to be natives to Israel.  Are you from the Bronze Age?"

Because of the universal nature of God, God is also the God of the "Palestinians". Therefore, although the commandment has not been abolished, I am inclined to believe personally that God would be happier with a controlled deportation rather than extermination. And further, I think the reason there ARE no more Amalekites is simply because God does not WANT his people exterminating ANYONE. As you have all correctly pointed out, unlike in the Bronze Age, we understand that there are better ways to deal with problems then wholesale elimination of a people, however distasteful a people they may be.

Except I am not talking about what we understand, I am talking about God's commandment.  It was pretty unequivoical:

Quote from: Samuel 15:2-10
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

So yes, while I agree that there are obviously better ways to deal with Palestinians, the point is that your God is so barbaric and hateful that he, as the source of all morality, sentences all Amalek babies to be slain only because of an accident of birth.  It is undeniable that your God is utterly immoral and evil.

However, I would contrast that with two things. 1, the fact that Amalekites no longer exist. This is an act of the same God that commanded their very destruction. He found a far better way to do it than genocide. Rather, he bred them out of existence. 2, I think he did this because of the text that you read later in the Hebrew Scriptures. Again I refer you to Isaiah and the Minor Prophets. Nation shall not rise up against nation, and neither shall mankind again know war. And they shall beat their swords in the plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks. And later in the the text (Malachi, I think, unless its Micah, I am running off memory here), Justice, justice ye shall pursue!

The God of the Hebrew Bible was able to ultimately save the Amalekites through peacefully breeding them out of existence to the point where fighting them would be impossible. Sounds pretty smart to me. Therefore, he at the same time doesn't break his promise to the Israelites. His commandments are eternal, even that one, but in that case, it can't be exercised, so the brutality is avoided as well. Two birds with one stone, eh?

So he replaced Genocide with Eugenics.  Great....
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 27, 2014, 07:19:18 AM
Of course, that's a matter of personal opinion, and about 1 billion 15 million persons alive TODAY seem to disagree with you, as did he. And that doesn't include all the people who lived and died BEFORE the ones currently living. You are more and more of schmuck every time you you open your yap. But continue, please. I enjoy being amused. I don't know of anyone who is willing to die for believing in Tolkien's admittedly interesting work. I know a lot of people who would be willing to die for their Faith, Jewish or Christian.
So that's the qualifier for a religion?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 27, 2014, 10:08:00 AM
"A lot of people have faith in something, so it must be true"
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 27, 2014, 01:29:33 PM
Surely God could have given the others the abililty to understand as well, and not just Moses. I mean, he's God. R-right??

I suppose. But it would have been a bit complicated to give 2 million people the chance to ask questions. I mean, Moses himself probably had a shit-ton of those, don't you think?


QUOTE OF RAMA SET: "So he replaced Genocide with Eugenics.  Great....

Or you might say he knew that it was going to happen, so he simply let it occur.


Of course, that's a matter of personal opinion, and about 1 billion 15 million persons alive TODAY seem to disagree with you, as did he. And that doesn't include all the people who lived and died BEFORE the ones currently living. You are more and more of schmuck every time you you open your yap. But continue, please. I enjoy being amused. I don't know of anyone who is willing to die for believing in Tolkien's admittedly interesting work. I know a lot of people who would be willing to die for their Faith, Jewish or Christian.
So that's the qualifier for a religion?

Not in the slightest. I merely point out that as being one quality which Tolkien's material lacks. In and of itself, I agree, it would not be enough to qualify as a religion. Put it with enough other things, and bingo.

What are those other things? Well, lets face it, the Judeo-Christian code has effected beneficially most systems of law in the West, and even outside the West (basically wherever the West ended up). Of course, before I get the inevitable whining about "genocide of native peoples", lets be honest, people like the Aztecs had it coming. And even with that, the spread of disease was unintentional, as the Europeans had no idea what their bodies carried.

Lets face it. Tolkien never intended to start a religion, and would have probably laughed, and possibly even sued your sorry ass for suggesting anything of the sort. And the question of whether his material is better than the Bible is a matter of opinion, and it is not an opinion that would have been shared by him, given that he was a devout Catholic. Methinks you all need to grow up and act like adults. I realise that is hard for many of you, since you all appear to be stuck in this "waah fuckin' waah" stage of the eternal three year old age group. If I don't get my way, I shall throw myself upon the floor and kick and scream until the adults give me what I want. Waah fuckin' waah.


"A lot of people have faith in something, so it must be true"

Not at all. Again, you have missed the point. It has nothing to do with a lot of people having faith. I was merely pointing out that a lot of people disagreed with him on the literary nerits of Tolkien vs the Bible. That does  not mean anything about the Bible's inspired nature or lack thereof. That is a whole different argument.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 27, 2014, 01:49:31 PM
Surely God could have given the others the abililty to understand as well, and not just Moses. I mean, he's God. R-right??

I suppose. But it would have been a bit complicated to give 2 million people the chance to ask questions. I mean, Moses himself probably had a shit-ton of those, don't you think?
God is not powerful enough to answer over 2 million questions at once. Got it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: jroa on October 27, 2014, 02:07:35 PM
Surely God could have given the others the abililty to understand as well, and not just Moses. I mean, he's God. R-right??

I suppose. But it would have been a bit complicated to give 2 million people the chance to ask questions. I mean, Moses himself probably had a shit-ton of those, don't you think?
God is not powerful enough to answer over 2 million questions at once. Got it.

I hope people learn to start praying just one at a time so God does not get overwhelmed. 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on October 27, 2014, 02:11:24 PM
Is there any meaningful difference between the jewish God and Hitler? Both demanded absolute deference, both were more than happy to order the extinction of multiple races through genocide and eugenics, and both felt that their people deserved land which did not belong to them.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 27, 2014, 02:14:56 PM
Surely God could have given the others the abililty to understand as well, and not just Moses. I mean, he's God. R-right??

I suppose. But it would have been a bit complicated to give 2 million people the chance to ask questions. I mean, Moses himself probably had a shit-ton of those, don't you think?
God is not powerful enough to answer over 2 million questions at once. Got it.

I hope people learn to start praying just one at a time so God does not get overwhelmed. 
Quite so.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 27, 2014, 02:37:35 PM
When you read the bible, its almost as if god keeps forgetting he is omnipotent. Weird.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 27, 2014, 04:08:06 PM
Surely God could have given the others the abililty to understand as well, and not just Moses. I mean, he's God. R-right??

I suppose. But it would have been a bit complicated to give 2 million people the chance to ask questions. I mean, Moses himself probably had a shit-ton of those, don't you think?
God is not powerful enough to answer over 2 million questions at once. Got it.


When you read the bible, its almost as if god keeps forgetting he is omnipotent. Weird.


I think you are all forgetting the manner in which God has always brought a new dispensation to the world. There are many ways he could do it. I suppose he could do it any way he so chose. But he chooses to bring it through one individual, probably because (and this is my guess, not that of the Rabbis, or other people far smarter than me) such a person is far more capable of receiving such a dispensation than your average John Q. Public. And for example, he chose one person, Abraham, to be the father of a nation, the Hebrews. Why a nation? I don't know. He promised them a land, Canaan. They lived there for some time. All the way til they went down to Egypt under Jacob. They spent 430 years there. They went back under Moses.

Why did Moses receive the Law and not the whole nation at once? Well, probably because he could read and write (and again, that is just my guess, not that of the Rabbis or of men much smarter than me; I don't know what they suggest, I'd have to look it up). But the fact that it has to be written down for posterity indicates that someone has to be able to do so, and, again, this is a guess, but I suspect slaves probably didn't know how to read and write, so, once again, Moses would be an ideal choice.

And now we come to the comment that takes the taco for utmost stupid in the entire thread that I have seen yet. Someone has to be a complete fucking idiot to come up with this one. I quote the following gem of stupidity:


Is there any meaningful difference between the jewish God and Hitler? Both demanded absolute deference, both were more than happy to order the extinction of multiple races through genocide and eugenics, and both felt that their people deserved land which did not belong to them.

First off, God did not use positive eugenics in any form. He simply allowed humans to do what humans do, which is intermarry with one another until they no longer exist as groups. In fact, the Jews are one of the few groups that has survived as long as it has because of its tendency NOT to do that. During the Bronze Age, genocide was a standard procedure, whether ordered by God or man. If the Hebrews had not engaged in the practice, it would have been them that would have been genocided (to coin a verb).

Since Canaan was promised to Abraham way back when, long before Moses was even thought of, your last point is no point at all. Remember that after the destruction of four of the Five Cities on the Plain, there was virtually nobody left in Canaan. Abraham's family was. Anyone who came knew the land was his. If they chose to settle there, they knew the land was his. Even though Jacob chose to leave for reasons of famine, the fact that other people showed up was their fault, not his. That does not negate his  claim to the land.

So, bitch and belly-ache all you want. The fact is, that your left-wing "sit around the campfire and lets make friends and sing "CumBayYa" shit isn't real. I mean, seriously. Do you people even hear yourselves, or see what you fucking type? You sound and read like clowns. Lets all go out and make like buddies. Please. Its not realistic.

The fact is that there are no moderate Muslims in the world that are willing to speak out against the ones that are killing and slaughtering people that don't agree with them, because they are too damned afraid of being next on the list. The fact also is that  in the fucking Bronze Age brutality was such that either you did it to them, or they did it to you. Take your pick. And don't tell me you would have done anything differently.

If you had lived during the Bronze Age, and the opportunity had presented itself, you would have slaughtered your enemy, and taken his land and women captive. That is the way it was done. And if you had done otherwise, they would have done it to you. And you would have known that. So, don't tell me that YOU would have been different. If you are stupid enough to try to tell me that, I will laugh in your face.

With a Master's degree in History, I know full well what people are. You are no different than anyone else. The Gandhis and the Mother Theresas of the world are few and far between. I seriously doubt if there is one of those among any of us here.

So, whether you say its because you would have done it, or because your God ordered you to do it, the fact is you would have slaughtered your enemy, and hung his head on a fucking pike, and taken his women captive, and married the virgins, and given the married girls over to the soldiers for spoil. That's just how it was.

Its not a matter of being like Hitler. And in fact, today's Israel with the so-called "Palestinians" is far kinder than any other Occupying Power in the history of the world, as I have proven in previous postings on this thread. So I strongly suggest you shut the fuck up and quit your bitching. I have never seen more WAAAAAAAAAAH FUCKIN' WAAAAAAAAAAH! in my entire life.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on October 27, 2014, 04:12:37 PM
Yeah, there is no middle ground between liking Hitler and sitting around a campfire while holding hands and singing songs about friendship.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 27, 2014, 04:39:35 PM
Yonah-After the shooting in Ottawa a Muslim spoke out against Islamic violence to a national audience. Stop being such a bigot and thinking that disliking genocide makes someone soft.



Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 27, 2014, 04:48:13 PM
A MUSLIM, 1, spoke out against. My, that's mighty white of him! I don't see them doing anything to stop it though. Until I see every Muslim in the United States lining up at recruiting stations to enter the military, and volunteering to go over there, until I see Muslims in the Middle East start sending armies to fight ISIS, until I start seeing Muslims in the Middle East starting to support Israel in its fight against Hamas (ISIS Lite) and Hezbollah, I don't buy the bullshit.

I oppose genocide myself. I'm only saying that if we had lived in the Bronze Age, we would have thought differently, and you are no different than me. And don't pretend for a moment that you are. Quit the pie in the sky "Cumbaya" shit. Be real.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on October 27, 2014, 05:03:55 PM
Quote
until I see Muslims in the Middle East start sending armies to fight ISIS

You know that most Iraqis figting IS are Muslims, right? As are the Jordanians, Arabs, Saudis, Kurds, Bahrainians...

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 27, 2014, 05:08:07 PM
The only nation in the Middle East currently not fighting ISIS is Turkey.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 27, 2014, 05:22:28 PM
A MUSLIM, 1, spoke out against. My, that's mighty white of him! I don't see them doing anything to stop it though. Until I see every Muslim in the United States lining up at recruiting stations to enter the military, and volunteering to go over there, until I see Muslims in the Middle East start sending armies to fight ISIS, until I start seeing Muslims in the Middle East starting to support Israel in its fight against Hamas (ISIS Lite) and Hezbollah, I don't buy the bullshit.

Well all it takes is one counter example to prove your judgement incorrect.  As pointed out, there are plenty of Muslims fighting against ISIS, as if fighting in a war is the only way to oppose something.

Quote
I oppose genocide myself.

Than you are disobeying your repugnant God, end of story.

Quote
I'm only saying that if we had lived in the Bronze Age, we would have thought differently, and you are no different than me. And don't pretend for a moment that you are. Quit the pie in the sky "Cumbaya" shit. Be real.

"Be real".

"Quit the pie in the sky 'Cumbaya' shit."

Is this your universities version of debating?

The fact of the matter is, that this is just an assertion that you cannot back up and means absolutely nothing to the debate.  Well done.

By the way, your God kills babies. lol!

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 27, 2014, 05:53:42 PM
Quote
until I see Muslims in the Middle East start sending armies to fight ISIS

You know that most Iraqis figting IS are Muslims, right? As are the Jordanians, Arabs, Saudis, Kurds, Bahrainians...

When I see their troops on the ground, then I'll buy it.


A MUSLIM, 1, spoke out against. My, that's mighty white of him! I don't see them doing anything to stop it though. Until I see every Muslim in the United States lining up at recruiting stations to enter the military, and volunteering to go over there, until I see Muslims in the Middle East start sending armies to fight ISIS, until I start seeing Muslims in the Middle East starting to support Israel in its fight against Hamas (ISIS Lite) and Hezbollah, I don't buy the bullshit.

Well all it takes is one counter example to prove your judgement incorrect.  As pointed out, there are plenty of Muslims fighting against ISIS, as if fighting in a war is the only way to oppose something.

Quote
I oppose genocide myself.

Than you are disobeying your repugnant God, end of story.

Quote
I'm only saying that if we had lived in the Bronze Age, we would have thought differently, and you are no different than me. And don't pretend for a moment that you are. Quit the pie in the sky "Cumbaya" shit. Be real.

"Be real".

"Quit the pie in the sky 'Cumbaya' shit."

Is this your universities version of debating?

The fact of the matter is, that this is just an assertion that you cannot back up and means absolutely nothing to the debate.  Well done.

By the way, your God kills babies. lol!



Whatever. You are a schmuck. Whoever you want to blame for massacres of biblical proportions, you might as well admit that you would have engaged in them yourself, you sorry excuse for a human if I ever saw one.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 27, 2014, 05:56:54 PM
By the way, your God kills babies. lol!
It's not bad as long as God does it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 27, 2014, 05:58:31 PM
I have no sympathy for a people who committed human sacrifice. I have no sympathy for a people who were so wicked God himself deemed their destruction necessary. I don't understand why he deemed it so. It seems harsh. But shit happens, man. If it had not been them, they would have done it to us. So, given a choice, I'll take the former. That is what you losers are forgetting. If it had not been them, it would have been us. Given the two choices, what would you have done? There was NO third option. Think about it. Waah fuckin' Waah.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on October 27, 2014, 06:00:52 PM
So we even know Moses was able to read and write?  I thought ancient royalty had scribes so they didn't have to do that stuff?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 27, 2014, 06:03:55 PM
Well, the argument has been won, just by virtue that we survived, they didn't, and the choice was clear. Us or them. No third option. So, rather than continue this line of conversation, I shall end it here. If you anything further to say on it, I suggest you do it elsewhere, because I have no further interest in discussing the matter.

Do you have intelligent questions I can answer?

Now that is an intelligent question. Royalty were educated. They didn't always write the records, but they knew how to read them. They were among the best educated in their world. They could also write, usually, although they employed people to do it professionally, of course, just as governments do today.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 27, 2014, 07:12:39 PM
You keep describing the things god does in the perspective of a human. I think you yourself are having trouble comprehending the sheer ability of a omnipotent being to do literally anything. Anything an omnipotent being does or causes to happen is because the being wanted that specific thing to happen. If millions died ala flooding, god wanted that to happen. It wasn't a "well I guess I have to do this because you made me do it."

The reason the god in the bible doesn't sound very omnipotent is because the bible is written by humans who made up solutions that make sense to a human.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on October 27, 2014, 07:19:33 PM
Is there any meaningful difference between the jewish God and Hitler? Both demanded absolute deference, both were more than happy to order the extinction of multiple races through genocide and eugenics, and both felt that their people deserved land which did not belong to them.

Since Austria belonged to Bismark way back when, long before Hitler was even thought of, your last point is no point at all. Remember that after WWI, there was virtually nobody left in Europe. Anyone who came knew the land was theirs. If they chose to take it, they knew the land was theirs.

Nazi Mad Libs is fun.

Anyway, here's the real question: who's more genocidal/racist: Yaakov or Yahweh?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 27, 2014, 07:26:28 PM
No comment, except that Europe was well populated. Apparently your knowledge of population density is about as good as your knowledge of the Bible. Schmuck.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 27, 2014, 07:35:19 PM
Anyway, here's the real question: who's more genocidal/racist: Yaakov or Yahweh?

What if Yaakov is Yahweh and he is trying to justify all of his shitty moral decisions on an internet forum hoping people actually agree with him?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 27, 2014, 08:01:08 PM
I have no sympathy for a people who committed human sacrifice. I have no sympathy for a people who were so wicked God himself deemed their destruction necessary. I don't understand why he deemed it so. It seems harsh. But shit happens, man. If it had not been them, they would have done it to us. So, given a choice, I'll take the former. That is what you losers are forgetting. If it had not been them, it would have been us. Given the two choices, what would you have done? There was NO third option. Think about it. Waah fuckin' Waah.

You still have not shown that Amalekites committed human sacrifice.  Your pre-emptive genocide is barbaric.  So much for your temple of solomon.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 27, 2014, 09:30:30 PM
You keep describing the things god does in the perspective of a human. I think you yourself are having trouble comprehending the sheer ability of a omnipotent being to do literally anything. Anything an omnipotent being does or causes to happen is because the being wanted that specific thing to happen. If millions died ala flooding, god wanted that to happen. It wasn't a "well I guess I have to do this because you made me do it."

The reason the god in the bible doesn't sound very omnipotent is because the bible is written by humans who made up solutions that make sense to a human.

I'm not having trouble with anything, although I suspect you are having issues with transference. I would encourage you to visit a psychologist about that.

God doesn't will anything bad to occur. Millions die in flooding because we live in a fallen world. Get over it.


I have no sympathy for a people who committed human sacrifice. I have no sympathy for a people who were so wicked God himself deemed their destruction necessary. I don't understand why he deemed it so. It seems harsh. But shit happens, man. If it had not been them, they would have done it to us. So, given a choice, I'll take the former. That is what you losers are forgetting. If it had not been them, it would have been us. Given the two choices, what would you have done? There was NO third option. Think about it. Waah fuckin' Waah.

You still have not shown that Amalekites committed human sacrifice.  Your pre-emptive genocide is barbaric.  So much for your temple of solomon.


QUOTE: "Moloch, also known as Molech, Molekh, Molok, Molek, Molock, Moloc, Melech, Milcom, or Molcom (representing Semitic מלך m-l-k, a Semitic root meaning "king") is the name of an ancient Ammonite god.[1] Moloch worship was practiced by the Canaanites, Phoenicians, and related cultures in North Africa and the Levant.

As a god worshipped by the Phoenicians and Canaanites, Moloch had associations with a particular kind of propitiatory child sacrifice by parents. Moloch figures in the Book of Deuteronomy and in the Book of Leviticus as a form of idolatry (Leviticus 18:21: "And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Moloch"). In the Old Testament, Gehenna was a valley by Jerusalem, where apostate Israelites and followers of various Baalim and Caananite gods, including Moloch, sacrificed their children by fire (2 Chr. 28:3, 33:6; Jer. 7:31, 19:2–6)."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moloch

Now if you don't look like a shlemiel.

As regards the Temple of Solomon, that was an irrelevant comment. Absence of evidence is not indication of no evidence. Grow up.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 27, 2014, 09:48:21 PM
God doesn't will anything bad to occur. Millions die in flooding because we live in a fallen world. Get over it.

God wills everything bad that occurs. If your life is painful, it is because god wanted it that way. At least, that's how it would be, if god existed.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 27, 2014, 09:51:50 PM
I look like a "fool" because after several pages you finally got around to providing evidence?  Now, can you provide evidence from a source other than the bible considering the obvious and weighty bias your book holds for Canaanites?  From what the sources on the wiki pages say, there is only a "possibility of human sacrifice."  Nothing definite in the archaeological record.

I will point out now, that I am not using the lazy tactic you use of saying "It was the bronze age, you would have done it too!"  But I must say that on your view, how is human sacrifice any worse than the wholesale slaughter of infants who have not committed any sort of crime other than being born?

The Temple of Solomon was just a little dig at your propensity for claiming how much more civilized the Jews were than anyone else in the Bronze Age.  Something that does not seem to be borne out by your own historical record. 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 27, 2014, 10:03:39 PM
God doesn't will anything bad to occur. Millions die in flooding because we live in a fallen world. Get over it.

God wills everything bad that occurs. If your life is painful, it is because god wanted it that way. At least, that's how it would be, if god existed.

I recommend a few philosophy courses. You evidently haven't had too many. If your view of the universe is the simplistic, its no wonder you are operating on such a grade school level along with the other schmucks in here. My God.


While I'm at it, I'll just throw this out there. The reason that God came only to Moses is because man cannot usually see God's face and live. Moses was an exception to that. Why, I am not certain, although the reason might lie in his purity has a person. So that is another reason for not coming personally to all 2 million people at once. Perhaps not killing them all was something God deemed important?


I look like a "fool" because after several pages you finally got around to providing evidence?  Now, can you provide evidence from a source other than the bible considering the obvious and weighty bias your book holds for Canaanites?  From what the sources on the wiki pages say, there is only a "possibility of human sacrifice."  Nothing definite in the archaeological record.

You could have found that evidence yourself. If you are so incompetent as to not be able to use a computer as to make me do your research for you, then you are the fool. And the Wikipedia entry says nothing about possibilities. It simply says that there were associations with child sacrifice. Sounds pretty definite to me. Reread the entry.

I will point out now, that I am not using the lazy tactic you use of saying "It was the bronze age, you would have done it too!"  But I must say that on your view, how is human sacrifice any worse than the wholesale slaughter of infants who have not committed any sort of crime other than being born?

Not my problem, ultimately. That is simply the way things were handled. I might not like it, but that is the reality of things. Welcome to the real world, and not your "Cumbaya" fantasy land, which isn't even true today.

The Temple of Solomon was just a little dig at your propensity for claiming how much more civilized the Jews were than anyone else in the Bronze Age.  Something that does not seem to be borne out by your own historical record.

Given that the Temple of Solomon was 500 years later than Moses, and the Hebrews had gone from being a roving band of pastoral nomads to a settled Kingdom of power and influence, yes, they were FAR more civilised by then than just about anyone in Europe or Sub-Saharan Africa. So, again, you are advised to close your yap. You are starting to look like an ass-hat. 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Snupes on October 27, 2014, 10:31:26 PM
Moloch, also known as Molech, Molekh, Molok, Molek, Molock, Moloc, Melech, Milcom, or Molcom (representing Semitic מלך m-l-k, a Semitic root meaning "king") is the name of an ancient Ammonite god.

Oh yeah, they had a show about him, Molcom in the Middle, right?

But more seriously, please cut out the hostility. You can have a discussion like this without telling people they're ass-hats, idiots, fools, what have you.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 27, 2014, 10:34:37 PM
I recommend a few philosophy courses. You evidently haven't had too many. If your view of the universe is the simplistic, its no wonder you are operating on such a grade school level along with the other schmucks in here. My God.

You're just so much more advanced you can't explain how advanced you are. I thought that was my forum niche, not yours.

While I'm at it, I'll just throw this out there. The reason that God came only to Moses is because man cannot usually see God's face and live. Moses was an exception to that. Why, I am not certain, although the reason might lie in his purity has a person. So that is another reason for not coming personally to all 2 million people at once. Perhaps not killing them all was something God deemed important?

Once again you don't get that anything that an omnipotent being wants to happen, happens. If looking at god kills you, then god wanted that to be the way it is. Are you saying there is some magical set of laws that god has to obey? That doesn't sound very god-like to me.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 27, 2014, 10:54:59 PM
Moloch, also known as Molech, Molekh, Molok, Molek, Molock, Moloc, Melech, Milcom, or Molcom (representing Semitic מלך m-l-k, a Semitic root meaning "king") is the name of an ancient Ammonite god.

Oh yeah, they had a show about him, Molcom in the Middle, right?

Moloch in the Middle. Good one on you. That was funny.

But more seriously, please cut out the hostility. You can have a discussion like this without telling people they're ass-hats, idiots, fools, what have you.

I don't know how much of this thread you've actually read, but certain people (and they know who they are) have been displaying incredible amounts of obtuseness. At first I thought it was a failure to comprehend. Then I realised it was deliberate, and therefore a true fault, and as a result, sin, for which they will probably be adjudged guilty on the Day of Judgement, though it not my place to say that definitively. I am unsure if it is a deliberate attempt to be obtuse, or if it is indeed outright stupidity, but it is deliberate.


I recommend a few philosophy courses. You evidently haven't had too many. If your view of the universe is the simplistic, its no wonder you are operating on such a grade school level along with the other schmucks in here. My God.

You're just so much more advanced you can't explain how advanced you are. I thought that was my forum niche, not yours.

While I'm at it, I'll just throw this out there. The reason that God came only to Moses is because man cannot usually see God's face and live. Moses was an exception to that. Why, I am not certain, although the reason might lie in his purity has a person. So that is another reason for not coming personally to all 2 million people at once. Perhaps not killing them all was something God deemed important?

Once again you don't get that anything that an omnipotent being wants to happen, happens. If looking at god kills you, then god wanted that to be the way it is. Are you saying there is some magical set of laws that god has to obey? That doesn't sound very god-like to me.

that is simply untrue. God doesn't have to obey anything. But to violate his own laws would be to make himself not God. for example, could God make a married bachelor?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on October 27, 2014, 11:37:30 PM
for example, could God make a married bachelor?[/size]

That's a nonsensical question, since the words "married bachelor" mean nothing when put together. It would be just as meaningful to ask if God could make a "UHuhfuhweiwpkwmdljf".
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 28, 2014, 12:13:15 AM
that is simply untrue. God doesn't have to obey anything. But to violate his own laws would be to make himself not God. for example, could God make a married bachelor?

Please stop making your text bigger. Also, yes, god can violate his own laws. If a law exists that god cannot break, then god ceases to be god and becomes a very, very powerful human analogue (which is basically what the bible portrays, anyway). Additionally, see what PP2 stated.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Shane on October 28, 2014, 12:56:42 AM
Can God make a dick so big not even he can suck it?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 28, 2014, 01:10:28 AM
We've been over this. God keeps things within the realm of the understandable for people at the time.
So let me get this straight:

Jews were so dumb that if God stood before them with pig, pointed to it, and said "Do not eat" they couldn't understand it?

Damn.
And before you say "not all 2 million people could see it at once" I would then say "break into groups of 30 and have God display himself and the pig to all 66,667 different groups."  It's not hard.  If Moses can do it, God can do it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 28, 2014, 01:47:02 AM
for example, could God make a married bachelor?[/size]

That's a nonsensical question, since the words "married bachelor" mean nothing when put together. It would be just as meaningful to ask if God could make a "UHuhfuhweiwpkwmdljf".

When I can quote without making my text larger and make it obvious that I am quoting, I shall do so. When necessary, however, I will change the font size. I'm sorry that inconveniences any of you. If you don't like it, I suggest getting over yourselves. That having been said, lets carry on.


that is simply untrue. God doesn't have to obey anything. But to violate his own laws would be to make himself not God. for example, could God make a married bachelor?

Please stop making your text bigger. Also, yes, god can violate his own laws. If a law exists that god cannot break, then god ceases to be god and becomes a very, very powerful human analogue (which is basically what the bible portrays, anyway). Additionally, see what PP2 stated.

And no, that is NOT what the Bible portrays. Although to one of limited Biblical knowledge, that might be what appears to be the case. But people have asked this question for eons. A perfect example is "Can God make a rock that is too heavy for God to lift?" The correct answer is none of the above, like the married bachelor question. It makes no sense.

The Bible portrays a progressive understanding of God (and if my effing SHIFT button doesn't start working again, so help me God...). The Bible starts with a narrow understanding of the Hebrew/Israelite God as a henotheistic national God of a tribal group in the Middle East, and slowly metamorphoses into the understanding of that God (by then Israel has broken into two kingdoms, the Northern of which has been destroyed and its peoples dispersed) as a universal God of all people. The Jewish God (for so we were called by then, and so we are still called today, for a variety of reasons I'll not discuss here) is understood by Jews as being the God, not just of Jews, but of all persons. At this point, you have Judaism as a universal, missionary faith, which it continued to be until the coming of Christianity.

Now this gets us into a whole new topic. The discussion of the (mis)fortunes of Judaism and the Jews under Christianity is a deep one, and not relevant here, although I am happy to answer any questions about it that may come up. Suffice to say that Judaism ceased to be a missionary upon the coming of Christianity as a State Faith to the Roman Empire, since it became punishable by death both to the Rabbi doing the conversion and to the convert.

Back to my point. The God of the Jewish Bible manifests originally in admittedly primitive form. This is only logical. A primitive people must needs have a primitive God that they can readily understand. As their understanding increases, God manifests himself in ever deeper and more complex ways.

Now, you can disagree with me all you wish. I don't ultimately give a rat's hind quarters. It remains my position, and I think I am well founded by any psychologist or psychiatrist or any other student of human mental states when I say that if God were to come to any human being in a manner that that person couldn't possibly comprehend, that person would regard it as a straight up mind-fuck, and would probably end up in a nut ward, or whatever his century's version of that was. In Moses' day, that would have probably meant very dead.

I mean, you honestly think that God, by virtue of being God, can radically change societies just because he wants to. Well, I suppose he could. Well, imagine you wanted to change the outcome of a war. So, you take an AK-47 back to the Crusades. I expect you would get a chance to change the outcome of one engagement. After that, you would be speedily declared to be a witch, and killed forthwith. So you'd better hope its an important engagement.

The world is the way it is because it is the best of all possible worlds. If God were to make it other than it is, it would not be the best of all possible worlds. It would be something different. It might be better in some ways, but it would be worse in others. So, before you start questioning God's creation, and the way he did it, consider the fact that if he had done it differently, you yourself might never have been born, or might have been born hideously, and died, or might have been born in a world where Nazi Germany won WWII, or any number of things. REMEMBER: THIS IS THE BEST OF ALL POSSIBLE WORLDS.

Lord Dave, you're a schmuck. We've already been over that. None can see the face of God and live. Except Moses. And I don't know why he caught a break. Didn't you ever learn to read?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 28, 2014, 02:08:56 AM
Can God make a dick so big not even he can suck it?
No, but religious folk can.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 28, 2014, 02:14:52 AM
Can God make a dick so big not even he can suck it?
No, but religious folk can.

Ok, so we have two cocksuckers in the group. We can leave them in the corner to do their thing. Enjoy that big cock, you two!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 28, 2014, 02:17:02 AM
Can God make a dick so big not even he can suck it?
No, but religious folk can.

Ok, so we have two cocksuckers in the group. We can leave them in the corner to do their thing. Enjoy that big cock, you two!
(http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/481/115/4cd.gif)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on October 28, 2014, 02:22:16 AM
The question of whether or not God could create a rock too heavy for him to lift is a bit more interesting. Is omnipotence necessarily a permanent condition? I don't think so. I think God could relieve himself of his powers, if we wanted. Or he could simply create one obstacle that he could not overcome, as in the rock example, and he would still be nearly omnipotent, but not quite.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 28, 2014, 02:33:53 AM
The question of whether or not God could create a rock too heavy for him to lift is a bit more interesting. Is omnipotence necessarily a permanent condition? I don't think so. I think God could relieve himself of his powers, if we wanted. Or he could simply create one obstacle that he could not overcome, as in the rock example, and he would still be nearly omnipotent, but not quite.

What if God did indeed create a rock too large for him to control, but the rock was actually the universe which explains why he seems mostly absent from it?

*keanu reeves*
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 28, 2014, 03:05:05 AM
The question of whether or not God could create a rock too heavy for him to lift is a bit more interesting. Is omnipotence necessarily a permanent condition? I don't think so. I think God could relieve himself of his powers, if we wanted. Or he could simply create one obstacle that he could not overcome, as in the rock example, and he would still be nearly omnipotent, but not quite.


Wow, there is actually an intelligent person in here! That is a rare find! Anyhow, onto the question. If God were to render himself not omnipotent, he would be rendering himself not God. So, I think that ultimately, the question of could God create a rock that was too heavy for God to lift can only be answered as none of the above. I don't think the question is answerable. Because in either a yes or a no answer, you run up against God not being omnipotent, and that is not possible. Either God is omnipotent, or God is not God.

Now granted, in some religious traditions, some forms of deity are limited in power in some form or other. For example, Jesus as God does not have unlimited physical power. He cannot lift a very heavy rock. In fact, he is limited to the strengths and weaknesses of a human being.

Obviously, I am not a Christian, so I do not believe that last paragraph, or the following that I am about to write. But go with me a bit on this.

Jesus is God incarnate. He is subject to all the limitations of a human. He presumably gets hot and cold the way we do. He presumably eats and drinks, and gets hungry and thirsty (in fact, the NT talks of him being hungry and thirsty) the way we do. I assume he has body functions (ie, he goes to the potty) the way we do.

And yet, he is God. Limited, and yet God. Now, in God's form as the Trinity, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, he is Omnipotent, Omnibenevolent, and Omniscient.

Obviously, I think this is all hooey, but that is the way the Christians explain it. So it is that God can be perceived in some forms to be limited as well as limitless.

But taking the Jewish God as he has always been understood, there is no way to answer the question because he could never surrender any part of his omnipotence without also surrendering his very Godhood itself.


The question of whether or not God could create a rock too heavy for him to lift is a bit more interesting. Is omnipotence necessarily a permanent condition? I don't think so. I think God could relieve himself of his powers, if we wanted. Or he could simply create one obstacle that he could not overcome, as in the rock example, and he would still be nearly omnipotent, but not quite.

What if God did indeed create a rock too large for him to control, but the rock was actually the universe which explains why he seems mostly absent from it?

*keanu reeves*

That is certainly an interesting question. And far more relevant that the idiocies I have mostly been dealing with today. But I think the answer remains the same. If God were to create a rock (whether it were the universe or any other thing) that were too large for God to control, then that would render God not omnipotent, and therefore not God.

I think the reason you perceive God to be mostly absent from the universe is because as you understand it, God should be working miracles the way the Bible records him doing in olden times. But, lets look at that fairly. The prophecy went out of Israel after Malachi died. Why? Well, I don't have a firm answer for you, but I suspect that it was no longer necessary. We were ready to live on our own by then.

That having been said, do bad things happen, and do we often wonder why God permits such? Sure. The answer is much simpler than people realise. We live in a fallen world. Ever since our first parents sinned against God (however you choose to interpret the Genesis story, whether literally or figuratively), and discovered their loss of innocence, the world has been a pretty hard place in which to live. In toil shalt thou live, and with the sweat of thy brow shalt thou bring forth bread from the earth. It takes work to live, and the world was no longer our friend. Mother nature turned on us. The world turned on us. God himself knew that we could no longer merit innocence. We had our freedom that we had taken from the tree of good and evil (again, however you wish to interpret that). Now we must learn to live with it. Evil entered to world and would henceforth be with us. There was nothing we were going to do at that point to stop it.

The Greeks have a similar story about Pandora's Box that they tell about how evil enters the world. The point of both stories is that evil enters the world through disobedience. However you choose to interpret either story (literally or metaphorically) is your business. As a Jew I would find the Greek tale metaphorical. The Genesis story, well, that's more debatable, but to be honest, I don't know. And as far as this discussion goes, it doesn't matter. What matters is that God did not create evil as such. Evil simply is.

In fact, if you go with an Augustinian definition of Evil, then Evil is not existent. It is non-existence, namely, the non-existence of Good. So to exist is a greater good than to not exist. This is the basis for the Argument from Ontology of Anselm.

1. I can conceive of a being a greater than which cannot possibly be conceived.
2. Existence is better than non-existence.
3. Ergo, God exists.

So, because of mankind's rebellion against an all powerful God, an all Good God, we live with evil in our midst. It isn't because God is absent. It is because Good is less present in our world than it should be, through our own actions which have made this so. Could God make this otherwise? I suppose he could. But that would be to eliminate our free will. Why would he do that, and make us robots? So, there you are.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 28, 2014, 07:11:07 AM
I don't understand how God simply making his presence  known to modern humans would turn us all into robots. Care to elaborate on this point?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 28, 2014, 09:57:48 AM
https://newmatilda.com/2014/10/28/melissa-parke-breaks-labor-ranks-back-bds-campaign-against-israel

tl;dr sole Labor MP criticizes Israel and expresses support for http://www.bdsmovement.net/. Gets called anti-semitic.

Is she right or wrong?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 28, 2014, 10:18:06 AM
I don't understand how God simply making his presence  known to modern humans would turn us all into robots. Care to elaborate on this point?

Well, it would certainly deny our free will, at least to a point. If God were literally standing over us as the Divine Taskmaster, forcing us to obey, would that not be a loss of free will?


https://newmatilda.com/2014/10/28/melissa-parke-breaks-labor-ranks-back-bds-campaign-against-israel

tl;dr sole Labor MP criticizes Israel and expresses support for http://www.bdsmovement.net/. Gets called anti-semitic.

Is she right or wrong?

She sounds like a whiny little bitch.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 28, 2014, 10:21:25 AM
She sounds like a whiny little bitch.

That's lazy. I want a wall of text.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 28, 2014, 10:32:08 AM
I don't care what you want. She's an anti-Semitic, uninformed, useless "Palestinian"-bought political whore. And the website you listed on the so-called bdsmovement is even more indication of stupid is as stupid does. Since "Palestinians" are not citizens of Israel, they do not have the rights of citizens, making any comparisons to apartheid disingenuous at best. And I LOVE the genocide accusation. 47 years and they have multiplied by four times! Wow! Jews must really suck at genocide!

So in conclusion, she's an ass-hat. Nothing more need be said.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 28, 2014, 01:27:12 PM
I don't understand how God simply making his presence  known to modern humans would turn us all into robots. Care to elaborate on this point?
Well, it would certainly deny our free will, at least to a point. If God were literally standing over us as the Divine Taskmaster, forcing us to obey, would that not be a loss of free will?

We more than likely do not have free will whether there is a god or not, so that is moot, but it is important to note that there is a big difference between "making your presence known" and being a "Divine Taskmaster[sic], forcing us to obey".
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 28, 2014, 02:09:35 PM
I'm pretty sure god is already portrayed as a divine taskmaster, regardless. You're rewarded for obeying and punished for getting out of line.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 28, 2014, 04:01:16 PM
I don't understand how God simply making his presence  known to modern humans would turn us all into robots. Care to elaborate on this point?
Well, it would certainly deny our free will, at least to a point. If God were literally standing over us as the Divine Taskmaster, forcing us to obey, would that not be a loss of free will?

We more than likely do not have free will whether there is a god or not, so that is moot, but it is important to note that there is a big difference between "making your presence known" and being a "Divine Taskmaster[sic], forcing us to obey".

I don't know how you come up with the idea that we more than likely do not have free will, but ok. Some of us, of course, would argue that God makes his presence known in many ways, practically every day.

Have you ever watched the cycle of life from birth to maturity in a bird's nest? Or observed a caterpillar become a butterfly? You see, to those of us who believe that there is no way this all occurred by accident, these are examples of God's presence.

One could take it further. Ever have miracles happen to you personally? Ever live when you should not have? I know I have. Ever survive against all odds, when you know damned well you should have paid the piper?

These are signs that God is with us. Now, you are going to argue with me, and that is fine. Go ahead. Remember, the reason God does not make himself directly known to Jews today is because the prophecy departed from Israel after Malachi. As far as other nations and peoples, I neither know nor care whether he has made himself known to them or not.

But, whether he has or not, remember that Jews were chosen of God to be a Royal Priesthood set apart unto the nations. We are a priesthood people, chosen to bring monotheism to the world. So, even if other nations have had revelations from God, they have not been along the level that we have had.

We are especially dedicated to being the intercessors between God and man. I encourage you all to read Zechariah chapter 8 for more references on this.


I'm pretty sure god is already portrayed as a divine taskmaster, regardless. You're rewarded for obeying and punished for getting out of line.

As I have indicated before, not all Jews even believe in an Afterlife. So your point is a non-point, except perhaps for the one on top of your head.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 28, 2014, 04:10:17 PM
If Jews were meant to bring monotheism to the world, why did Christians do it a million times better while Jews don't even want others to join?

Also, yes Jews suck at genocide.  You couldn't even wipe out one group of people during the bronze age.  They vanished from evolution.  Jews are slower than evolution.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 28, 2014, 04:39:42 PM
As I have indicated before, not all Jews even believe in an Afterlife. So your point is a non-point, except perhaps for the one on top of your head.

Is this some kind of point? Is there an afterlife or not?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 28, 2014, 04:40:15 PM
I don't understand how God simply making his presence  known to modern humans would turn us all into robots. Care to elaborate on this point?
Well, it would certainly deny our free will, at least to a point. If God were literally standing over us as the Divine Taskmaster, forcing us to obey, would that not be a loss of free will?

We more than likely do not have free will whether there is a god or not, so that is moot, but it is important to note that there is a big difference between "making your presence known" and being a "Divine Taskmaster[sic], forcing us to obey".

I don't know how you come up with the idea that we more than likely do not have free will, but ok.

Neuroscientific studies, mostly through fMRI have shown that our perception of making a choice is mostly artificial and that we make decisions well before we think we do, often whole seconds in advance.  There is some interesting reading around this.

Quote
Some of us, of course, would argue that God makes his presence known in many ways, practically every day.

Have you ever watched the cycle of life from birth to maturity in a bird's nest? Or observed a caterpillar become a butterfly? You see, to those of us who believe that there is no way this all occurred by accident, these are examples of God's presence.

Right, we call you folks Creationists and wonder why you ignore all the evidence for evolution.

Quote
One could take it further. Ever have miracles happen to you personally? Ever live when you should not have? I know I have. Ever survive against all odds, when you know damned well you should have paid the piper?

I am extremely suspicious of your ability to discern when you "should have paid the piper".  You likely have massive cognitive gaps between what happened and what was likely to happen.  I mean, can you tell me what the actual odds of you living were?  Is it more or less likely than say, winning the lottery?  Because that happens extremely regularly and I am willing to wager that incidences likely to cause human fatality happen much more frquently, only increasing the odds that something unlikely happens.  It would be a miracle if nothing unlikely ever happened, moreso than something unlikely happening.

Quote
These are signs that God is with us. Now, you are going to argue with me, and that is fine. Go ahead. Remember, the reason God does not make himself directly known to Jews today is because the prophecy departed from Israel after Malachi. As far as other nations and peoples, I neither know nor care whether he has made himself known to them or not.

What are the signs apart from what you have mentioned previously in this post?

Quote
But, whether he has or not, remember that Jews were chosen of God to be a Royal Priesthood set apart unto the nations. We are a priesthood people, chosen to bring monotheism to the world. So, even if other nations have had revelations from God, they have not been along the level that we have had.

Ooook.  Other than thinking that is a pretty narcissistic and solipsistic comment, I am not sure what to make of it.  You know that every religion claims to have the privileged relationship with their God, so in that respect you are as special as every other religious sect.

Quote
We are especially dedicated to being the intercessors between God and man. I encourage you all to read Zechariah chapter 8 for more references on this.

I hope that works out for you.  If there is a God, I could care less if he chose you to intercede on my behalf. 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 28, 2014, 04:42:17 PM
As I have indicated before, not all Jews even believe in an Afterlife. So your point is a non-point, except perhaps for the one on top of your head.

I can cite hundreds of examples in the bible where god punishes people for not doing what he told them to do. If that isn't a taskmaster in your mind, then what is?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 28, 2014, 06:36:13 PM
I don't care what you want. She's an anti-Semitic, uninformed, useless "Palestinian"-bought political whore. And the website you listed on the so-called bdsmovement is even more indication of stupid is as stupid does. Since "Palestinians" are not citizens of Israel, they do not have the rights of citizens, making any comparisons to apartheid disingenuous at best. And I LOVE the genocide accusation. 47 years and they have multiplied by four times! Wow! Jews must really suck at genocide!

So in conclusion, she's an ass-hat. Nothing more need be said.

Ok, so this is just as petty as I thought. Much better response!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on October 28, 2014, 07:25:57 PM
If you have knowledge of a horrific event about to take place and do nothing about it doesn't that make you partially responsible for its occurrence, particularly if it is within your power to stop it?  Wouldn't that make God partially responsible for a lot of atrocities due to his omnipotence and omnipresence?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: EnigmaZV on October 28, 2014, 07:35:19 PM
I don't understand how God simply making his presence  known to modern humans would turn us all into robots. Care to elaborate on this point?

Well, it would certainly deny our free will, at least to a point. If God were literally standing over us as the Divine Taskmaster, forcing us to obey, would that not be a loss of free will?


It's true, Moses had no free will.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 28, 2014, 11:26:41 PM
If Jews were meant to bring monotheism to the world, why did Christians do it a million times better while Jews don't even want others to join?

Also, yes Jews suck at genocide.  You couldn't even wipe out one group of people during the bronze age.  They vanished from evolution.  Jews are slower than evolution.

And Christians got their monotheism from us, and then messed it up with the Trinity. So your point is...?


As I have indicated before, not all Jews even believe in an Afterlife. So your point is a non-point, except perhaps for the one on top of your head.

Is this some kind of point? Is there an afterlife or not?

Depends on who you ask.


I don't understand how God simply making his presence  known to modern humans would turn us all into robots. Care to elaborate on this point?
Well, it would certainly deny our free will, at least to a point. If God were literally standing over us as the Divine Taskmaster, forcing us to obey, would that not be a loss of free will?

We more than likely do not have free will whether there is a god or not, so that is moot, but it is important to note that there is a big difference between "making your presence known" and being a "Divine Taskmaster[sic], forcing us to obey".

I don't know how you come up with the idea that we more than likely do not have free will, but ok.

Neuroscientific studies, mostly through fMRI have shown that our perception of making a choice is mostly artificial and that we make decisions well before we think we do, often whole seconds in advance.  There is some interesting reading around this.

I suspect there is some severe misreading of data going on. We still have A LOT of study to do yet before we truly comprehend the human brain, and even more before we comprehend the connection between brain and mind. So until that work is done, I'll take these tests with a grain of salt.

Quote
Some of us, of course, would argue that God makes his presence known in many ways, practically every day.

Have you ever watched the cycle of life from birth to maturity in a bird's nest? Or observed a caterpillar become a butterfly? You see, to those of us who believe that there is no way this all occurred by accident, these are examples of God's presence.

Right, we call you folks Creationists and wonder why you ignore all the evidence for evolution.

I never said I was a creationist. It would take an ASS to ASS-ume that.

Quote
One could take it further. Ever have miracles happen to you personally? Ever live when you should not have? I know I have. Ever survive against all odds, when you know damned well you should have paid the piper?

I am extremely suspicious of your ability to discern when you "should have paid the piper".  You likely have massive cognitive gaps between what happened and what was likely to happen.  I mean, can you tell me what the actual odds of you living were?  Is it more or less likely than say, winning the lottery?  Because that happens extremely regularly and I am willing to wager that incidences likely to cause human fatality happen much more frquently, only increasing the odds that something unlikely happens.  It would be a miracle if nothing unlikely ever happened, moreso than something unlikely happening.

Quote
These are signs that God is with us. Now, you are going to argue with me, and that is fine. Go ahead. Remember, the reason God does not make himself directly known to Jews today is because the prophecy departed from Israel after Malachi. As far as other nations and peoples, I neither know nor care whether he has made himself known to them or not.

What are the signs apart from what you have mentioned previously in this post?

Quote
But, whether he has or not, remember that Jews were chosen of God to be a Royal Priesthood set apart unto the nations. We are a priesthood people, chosen to bring monotheism to the world. So, even if other nations have had revelations from God, they have not been along the level that we have had.

Ooook.  Other than thinking that is a pretty narcissistic and solipsistic comment, I am not sure what to make of it.  You know that every religion claims to have the privileged relationship with their God, so in that respect you are as special as every other religious sect.

That comment is simply irrelevant.

Quote
We are especially dedicated to being the intercessors between God and man. I encourage you all to read Zechariah chapter 8 for more references on this.

I hope that works out for you.  If there is a God, I could care less if he chose you to intercede on my behalf. 

Also irrelevant.


If you have knowledge of a horrific event about to take place and do nothing about it doesn't that make you partially responsible for its occurrence, particularly if it is within your power to stop it?  Wouldn't that make God partially responsible for a lot of atrocities due to his omnipotence and omnipresence?

An interesting thought, no doubt. But again, I think you run into the problem of denial of free will. But Duck, I think you have at least hit on something that is worthy of thought, unlike the rest of the babblers in here. I'm a bit more impressed  by you than by the rest. Good work.


I don't understand how God simply making his presence  known to modern humans would turn us all into robots. Care to elaborate on this point?

Well, it would certainly deny our free will, at least to a point. If God were literally standing over us as the Divine Taskmaster, forcing us to obey, would that not be a loss of free will?


It's true, Moses had no free will.

I don't think that was quite the situation. But, it is interesting that you put it in that way. Before the Burning Bush, Moses did protest to God that he could not do what God asked of him because he was "slow of speech and slow of tongue". God basically told him to shut up, and that he would send Aaron his brother along to help. So, I suppose it really depends on how you take all that. Calvin would have said that we had no free will. Luther would have equivocated a bit. But Jews have never doubted that man has free will.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 28, 2014, 11:32:43 PM
You assume that neuroscientists are misreading their data?  Why is that?  Is it the published papers that make you think that or is it that it doesn't mesh with your worldview? 

It is not a very big assumption to call you a creationist. You are probably an Old Earth Creationist. Anyone who believes God created the cosmos is a creationist by definition. Thanks for calling me an ass for no reason though.

My comments you deemed as irrelevant only seem that way because I was addressing your bizarre diatribe about how special Hews are. It's awkward talking to people when they spout off like that.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 28, 2014, 11:41:18 PM
You assume that neuroscientists are misreading their data?  Why is that?  Is it the published papers that make you think that or is it that it doesn't mesh with your worldview? 

I am suggesting they are misreading data because anyone in that field, a very new one, might be. It is of VERY recent introduction in science, and is getting its feet wet still. It still has a LONG way to go before it can claim to have even the accuracy of psychiatry, which itself is still very inexact.

It is not a very big assumption to call you a creationist. You are probably an Old Earth Creationist. Anyone who believes God created the cosmos is a creationist by definition. Thanks for calling me an ass for no reason though.

Actually, I do believe in micro-evolution, at least to a point. So, yes, you are an ass-hat for assuming (there is that word again) that I would not. I don't believe that we all evolved from primordial slime, but I do believe that within species, things do evolve. That doesn't mean I was once a monkey. But that does means that Homo sapiens sapiens are not the only ones to be in the family Homo. I'm no genius with the scientific aspects of things, and never claimed to be, but I am not a Creationist in the pajorative sense that you are using the word. And no, believing in a deity does not automatically make one a creationist.

My comments you deemed as irrelevant only seem that way because I was addressing your bizarre diatribe about how special Hews are. It's awkward talking to people when they spout off like that.

Again, I recommend reading the 8th Chapter of Zechariah.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 28, 2014, 11:46:11 PM
Neuroscience is a different field than psychiatry so I would not compare the exactitude of the two sciences. I have heard the difference described as neuroscience examining a film projector and psychiatry examining the image.

I am not sure how you can deny macro evolution and believe micro evolution. Macro evolution is just micro occurring for so many generations that it build up to a large change. FYI, we did not evolve from monkeys. Look up Nearest Common Ancestor.

It's especially awkward when you justify your specialness by an ancient book written by barbarians.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 29, 2014, 12:00:56 AM
Neuroscience is a different field than psychiatry so I would not compare the exactitude of the two sciences. I have heard the difference described as neuroscience examining a film projector and psychiatry examining the image.

Exactly. But my point is still well made. Neither science is very far advanced at present time. Neuroscience and psychiatry both cannot (yet) comprehend where the mind ends and the brain begins. Until they can...

I am not sure how you can deny macro evolution and believe micro evolution. Macro evolution is just micro occurring for so many generations that it build up to a large change. FYI, we did not evolve from monkeys. Look up Nearest Common Ancestor.

I am well aware that we did not evolve from monkeys, thank you. I wasn't sure if you were. I am pleased to know that at least you have that much in the way of brains.

It's especially awkward when you justify your specialness by an ancient book written by barbarians.

That was simply a stupid thing to say. Given that the Bible has inspired men throughout the centuries to far greater things than you or I will ever accomplish in life, and given that your beloved UN uses it for quotations on the walls, methinks that you make an ass of yourself. I shan't deny that especially early in the text, there is some pretty barbaric stuff in there, but as I have said numerous times (I realise you have trouble reading, evidently),  by the time you reach toward the end of the text, God has become a universal God of all people, and the Jews have come to realise that  and speak of him in those terms. Anyone who can't see the glory of the Psalms, or the wisdom of the Proverbs, of the sobriety of Ecclesiastes, is simply a fool. Grow up.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 29, 2014, 12:04:42 AM
Neither science is very far advanced at present time. Neuroscience and psychiatry both cannot (yet) comprehend where the mind ends and the brain begins. Until they can..

The mind and the brain are the same thing (and are in fact synonyms). What exactly are you getting at?

I am well aware that we did not evolve from monkeys, thank you. I wasn't sure if you were. I am pleased to know that at least you have that much in the way of brains.

This is due to a misunderstanding of evolution. Through evolution we share a common ancestor with monkeys, we did not evolve from monkeys.

Also, you never answered my question:

I can cite hundreds of examples in the bible where god punishes people for not doing what he told them to do. If that isn't a taskmaster in your mind, then what is?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 29, 2014, 12:09:18 AM
Neither science is very far advanced at present time. Neuroscience and psychiatry both cannot (yet) comprehend where the mind ends and the brain begins. Until they can..

The mind and the brain are the same thing (and are in fact synonyms). What exactly are you getting at?

Actually, though they are used that way in English familiar speech, take a philosophy of mind course, and you will learn that the mind is the thing, the soul, if you will. The brain is the physical object that in some way houses the mind.

I am well aware that we did not evolve from monkeys, thank you. I wasn't sure if you were. I am pleased to know that at least you have that much in the way of brains.

This is due to a misunderstanding of evolution. Through evolution we share a common ancestor with monkeys, we did not evolve from monkeys.

Also, you never answered my question:

I can cite hundreds of examples in the bible where god punishes people for not doing what he told them to do. If that isn't a taskmaster in your mind, then what is?

And you at least have hit upon a point. God DOES indeed punish people for disobedience to the divine will in Scripture. I'm not so sure that makes him a taskmaster in the eternal sense, but it certainly does in the human sense of things. As to how to reconcile that with free will, well, that is a damn good question, and at present, I haven't got an answer for you. I'll have to consider that one a bit.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 29, 2014, 12:13:00 AM
Actually, though they are used that way in English familiar speech, take a philosophy of mind course, and you will learn that the mind is the thing, the soul, if you will. The brain is the physical object that in some way houses the mind.

You weren't talking about abstract philosophies, but about neuroscience and psychiatry. You referred to "where the brain ends and mind begins" and the answer is that they are the same thing. One doesn't begin in a separate place than the other.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 29, 2014, 12:15:16 AM
Actually, though they are used that way in English familiar speech, take a philosophy of mind course, and you will learn that the mind is the thing, the soul, if you will. The brain is the physical object that in some way houses the mind.

You weren't talking about abstract philosophies, but about neuroscience and psychology. You referred to "where the brain end and mind begins" and the answer is that they are the same thing. One doesn't begin in a separate place than the other.

I don't think you can separate the two. Philosophy and science DO interconnect. The brain and the mind are NOT the same thing. Descartes, the great mathematician and philosopher would have disagreed with you as well.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on October 29, 2014, 12:17:09 AM
Descartes was a shmuck. There is no evidence to suggest that any neural process is a product of anything other than purely physical interactions.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 29, 2014, 12:19:49 AM
Neuroscience is a different field than psychiatry so I would not compare the exactitude of the two sciences. I have heard the difference described as neuroscience examining a film projector and psychiatry examining the image.

Exactly. But my point is still well made. Neither science is very far advanced at present time. Neuroscience and psychiatry both cannot (yet) comprehend where the mind ends and the brain begins. Until they can...

You sound like you don't know much about the state of neuroscience. While it is a new science, they know that certain areas of the brain are activated when making a decision and that this can be seen to occur up to 6 seconds before a subject believes they have made a decision.

Quote
I am not sure how you can deny macro evolution and believe micro evolution. Macro evolution is just micro occurring for so many generations that it build up to a large change. FYI, we did not evolve from monkeys. Look up Nearest Common Ancestor.

I am well aware that we did not evolve from monkeys, thank you. I wasn't sure if you were. I am pleased to know that at least you have that much in the way of brains.

Are you trying to get your alt banned as well?  How can you deny macro evolution when it is nothing more than the cumulation of micro evolutionary changes? FYI, supporting the micro and denying the macro is a classic Creationist stance. You have more in common than you think!

Quote
It's especially awkward when you justify your specialness by an ancient book written by barbarians.

That was simply a stupid thing to say. Given that the Bible has inspired men throughout the centuries to far greater things than you or I will ever accomplish in life, and given that your beloved UN uses it for quotations on the walls, methinks that you make an ass of yourself. I shan't deny that especially early in the text, there is some pretty barbaric stuff in there, but as I have said numerous times (I realise you have trouble reading, evidently),  by the time you reach toward the end of the text, God has become a universal God of all people, and the Jews have come to realise that  and speak of him in those terms. Anyone who can't see the glory of the Psalms, or the wisdom of the Proverbs, of the sobriety of Ecclesiastes, is simply a fool. Grow up.

More insults. Good on you.

I never said the bible was not a source of inspiration or beautifully written in parts, but unless I am mistaken, the part where God tells you you are special is in Exodus which is before he gets all "kill the Amalekites!" which means that that part was written by Bronze Age barbarians.

PS If you can underline everything you can easily parse your quotes. It is pretty much the same process. When you want to close the quotes on the section you wish to respond to you write [/quote] and when you wish to continue quoting someone's text you write
Quote
. Please make it easier for people to respond to your diatribes.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 29, 2014, 12:19:57 AM
I don't think you can separate the two. Philosophy and science DO interconnect.

Not really. Philosophy is all about "why?" and science is all about "how?" The simply matter that they don't interconnect is the reason that (despite what some think) you can easily hold a religious preference and a career in science.

The brain and the mind are NOT the same thing. Descartes, the great mathematician and philosopher would have disagreed with you as well.

Descartes wouldn't be able to tell me what a neuron is. I doubt his opinion is relevant to the subject.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 29, 2014, 12:20:21 AM
Neuroscience is a different field than psychiatry so I would not compare the exactitude of the two sciences. I have heard the difference described as neuroscience examining a film projector and psychiatry examining the image.

Exactly. But my point is still well made. Neither science is very far advanced at present time. Neuroscience and psychiatry both cannot (yet) comprehend where the mind ends and the brain begins. Until they can...

You sound like you don't know much about the state of neuroscience. While it is a new science, they know that certain areas of the brain are activated when making a decision and that this can be seen to occur up to 6 seconds before a subject believes they have made a decision.

Quote
I am not sure how you can deny macro evolution and believe micro evolution. Macro evolution is just micro occurring for so many generations that it build up to a large change. FYI, we did not evolve from monkeys. Look up Nearest Common Ancestor.

I am well aware that we did not evolve from monkeys, thank you. I wasn't sure if you were. I am pleased to know that at least you have that much in the way of brains.

Are you trying to get your alt banned as well?  How can you deny macro evolution when it is nothing more than the cumulation of micro evolutionary changes? FYI, supporting the micro and denying the macro is a classic Creationist stance. You have more in common than you think!

Quote
It's especially awkward when you justify your specialness by an ancient book written by barbarians.

That was simply a stupid thing to say. Given that the Bible has inspired men throughout the centuries to far greater things than you or I will ever accomplish in life, and given that your beloved UN uses it for quotations on the walls, methinks that you make an ass of yourself. I shan't deny that especially early in the text, there is some pretty barbaric stuff in there, but as I have said numerous times (I realise you have trouble reading, evidently),  by the time you reach toward the end of the text, God has become a universal God of all people, and the Jews have come to realise that  and speak of him in those terms. Anyone who can't see the glory of the Psalms, or the wisdom of the Proverbs, of the sobriety of Ecclesiastes, is simply a fool. Grow up.


More insults. Good on you.

I never said the bible was not a source of inspiration or beautifully written in parts, but unless I am mistaken, the part where God tells you you are special is in Exodus which is before he gets all "kill the Amalekites!" which means that that part was written by Bronze Age barbarians.

PS If you can underline everything you can easily parse your quotes. It is pretty much the same process. When you want to close the quotes on the section you wish to respond to you write [ /quote] and when you wish to continue quoting someone's text you write [ quote]. Please make it easier for people to respond to your diatribes.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 29, 2014, 12:22:21 AM
I don't think you can separate the two. Philosophy and science DO interconnect.

Not really. Philosophy is all about "why?" and science is all about "how?" The simply matter that they don't interconnect is the reason that (despite what some think) you can easily hold a religious preference and a career in science.

The brain and the mind are NOT the same thing. Descartes, the great mathematician and philosopher would have disagreed with you as well.

Descartes wouldn't be able to tell me what a neuron is. I doubt his opinion is relevant to the subject.

This is evidenced by the fact that we can completely interrupt cognitive processes by damaging specific parts of the brain. There is no doubt that whatever consciousness is, it is a process of the brain.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 29, 2014, 12:23:07 AM
PS If you can underline everything you can easily parse your quotes. It is pretty much the same process. When you want to close the quotes on the section you wish to respond to you write and when you wish to continue quoting someone's text you write [ quote]. Please make it easier for people to respond to your diatribes.

I'm convinced that he's doing it on purpose at this point.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 29, 2014, 12:28:24 AM
Descartes was a shmuck. There is no evidence to suggest that any neural process is a product of anything other than purely physical interactions.

*GRIN* Ha Ha! Got you! But the correct spelling is "schmuck". Close enough though, PP. Well, its not just Descartes. God, its been years since my philosophy courses.I'll be honest. I am not prepared to debate this topic without a thorough review of the literature, particularly since my last study of the subject was 18 years ago, and I suspect a lot more research has been done since then, both in the halls of science and those of philosophy and religion.

So, let us forego this topic until I have data with which to work, shall we?

Now, Rama Set, repeating yourself simply isn't nice.

No Vaux, I wish I was, then there would be an excuse.


I don't think you can separate the two. Philosophy and science DO interconnect.

Not really. Philosophy is all about "why?" and science is all about "how?" The simply matter that they don't interconnect is the reason that (despite what some think) you can easily hold a religious preference and a career in science.

The brain and the mind are NOT the same thing. Descartes, the great mathematician and philosopher would have disagreed with you as well.

Descartes wouldn't be able to tell me what a neuron is. I doubt his opinion is relevant to the subject.

This is evidenced by the fact that we can completely interrupt cognitive processes by damaging specific parts of the brain. There is no doubt that whatever consciousness is, it is a process of the brain.

It IS a process of the brain. That much is obvious. But exactly what PART of the brain?

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 29, 2014, 12:31:14 AM
Now. Starting a new subtopic within the topic, does anybody actually have questions I can answer?I've done my best with the 6 on 1 Atheist vs. Theist fight. So, what's next?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 29, 2014, 12:38:07 AM
Which came first: the flood that wiped out all but a dozen humans and a boat load of animals or Moses getting the Torah?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 29, 2014, 12:45:53 AM
It IS a process of the brain. That much is obvious. But exactly what PART of the brain?

Well the easiest answer is that all parts of the brain have at least some impact on all neural processes. Some areas do deal more with certain processes than others (e.g. the hippocampus and memory) but in general damaging any part of the brain is a no-no. It becomes difficult to narrow parts of the brain down because the brain isn't organized into neat little compartments like your computer. The electrical, chemical, and physical connections of the billions of neurons make for a rather complex subject to study. The processes are so complex that we can't simulate neurons in a virtual environment. There is currently some progress in simulating the brain of a worm (which has something in the range of 50 neurons) and that is still having trouble. The progress never stops, though, and it is only a matter of time to when neurologists can completely simulate a neuron environment and accurately predict what drives various processes.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 29, 2014, 01:04:43 AM
Which came first: the flood that wiped out all but a dozen (sic) [there were eight] humans and a boat load of animals or Moses getting the Torah?

Well, the Flood did in terms of time, of course. Moses himself could not receive the Torah until he was himself alive, and he was alive AFTER the Flood. But you ask an interesting question that the Rabbis dealt with in interesting ways. How exactly did Moses get the Torah? Some believe the standard facile answer. He wrote it as it occurred, except for the last eight verses, which he may have written foretelling his own death, or Joshua wrote those.

However, the Rabbis suggested how the Torah came into being itself. "According to a Midrash, the Torah was created prior to the creation of the world, and was used as the blueprint for Creation."[3] source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah

So in terms of MOSES getting the Torah, the Flood came first. But in terms of which came first, the Flood or the Torah, the Torah did.


It IS a process of the brain. That much is obvious. But exactly what PART of the brain?

Well the easiest answer is that all parts of the brain have at least some impact on all neural processes. Some areas do deal more with certain processes than others (e.g. the hippocampus and memory) but in general damaging any part of the brain is a no-no. It becomes difficult to narrow parts of the brain down because the brain isn't organized into neat little compartments like your computer. The electrical, chemical, and physical connections of the billions of neurons make for a rather complex subject to study. The processes are so complex that we can't simulate neurons in a virtual environment. There is currently some progress in simulating the brain of a worm (which has something in the range of 50 neurons) and that is still having trouble. The progress never stops, though, and it is only a matter of time to when neurologists can completely simulate a neuron environment and accurately predict what drives various processes.



And there you are. You have quite happily made my point. And your own.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 29, 2014, 01:22:39 AM
I must close for the night. Have a pleasant night, all of you. See you tomorrow, I hope.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 29, 2014, 01:45:44 AM
Which came first: the flood that wiped out all but a dozen (sic) [there were eight] humans and a boat load of animals or Moses getting the Torah?

Well, the Flood did in terms of time, of course. Moses himself could not receive the Torah until he was himself alive, and he was alive AFTER the Flood. But you ask an interesting question that the Rabbis dealt with in interesting ways. How exactly did Moses get the Torah? Some believe the standard facile answer. He wrote it as it occurred, except for the last eight verses, which he may have written foretelling his own death, or Joshua wrote those.

However, the Rabbis suggested how the Torah came into being itself. "According to a Midrash, the Torah was created prior to the creation of the world, and was used as the blueprint for Creation."[3] source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah

So in terms of MOSES getting the Torah, the Flood came first. But in terms of which came first, the Flood or the Torah, the Torah did.
If all 8 people repopulated the Earth, doesn't that mean that everyone is descended from them?  Including Jews and the Alemakites (sp?).  And Moses?
And you mentioned the Noahites laws.  Did they come about before the Torah too?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 29, 2014, 01:58:09 AM
8 people cannot repopulate the Earth.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 29, 2014, 02:10:27 AM

Now, Rama Set, repeating yourself simply isn't nice.


I re asked a question because you dodged it before, so I will ask it again:

How can you believe in micro-evolution but not macro-evolution which is merely an extension of the micro-evolutionary process?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 29, 2014, 09:28:16 AM
Which came first: the flood that wiped out all but a dozen (sic) [there were eight] humans and a boat load of animals or Moses getting the Torah?

Well, the Flood did in terms of time, of course. Moses himself could not receive the Torah until he was himself alive, and he was alive AFTER the Flood. But you ask an interesting question that the Rabbis dealt with in interesting ways. How exactly did Moses get the Torah? Some believe the standard facile answer. He wrote it as it occurred, except for the last eight verses, which he may have written foretelling his own death, or Joshua wrote those.

However, the Rabbis suggested how the Torah came into being itself. "According to a Midrash, the Torah was created prior to the creation of the world, and was used as the blueprint for Creation."[3] source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah

So in terms of MOSES getting the Torah, the Flood came first. But in terms of which came first, the Flood or the Torah, the Torah did.
If all 8 people repopulated the Earth, doesn't that mean that everyone is descended from them?  Including Jews and the Alemakites (sp?).  And Moses?
And you mentioned the Noahites laws.  Did they come about before the Torah too?

Assuming (1) that one interprets the Flood story literally, and (2), that the Flood was a worldwide phenomenon, then yes, all people would in some sense be descended from the eight people that exited the Ark of Noah after the Flood.

Of course, there IS a third option, although it wouldn't change the point you are trying to make here. Traditionally, Japheth is regarded as father of the European people, Shem as father of the Semitic peoples, and Ham as father of the Negro peoples of Africa.

So that raises the question; where did the Japanese come from? Or the Chinese, et, etc.?

This option that I have oft considered allows for the idea that there may have been more than one ark. Given that every culture fro the Aztec to the Zulu has a Flood story, I think you have enough witnesses to verify the truth of the Flood. But I think the possibility that God may have allowed more than one Ark has to at least be considered.

Of course, the fourth option is that the Flood was a purely local one also has to be considered, but that would leave us with no explanation as to why so many other cultures have a flood story. I shall allow you to consider the options yourself.

But yes, ultimately, the Amalekites and the Hebrews were a related people. No one disputes that, certainly not me. I mean, heck, the distance from Ur, the original city of Abraham, to Canaan, on the route he followed, is only 955 miles.



Now, Rama Set, repeating yourself simply isn't nice.


I re asked a question because you dodged it before, so I will ask it again:

How can you believe in micro-evolution but not macro-evolution which is merely an extension of the micro-evolutionary process?

It depends on how you are using the word "microevolution'. Allow me to elaborate. I do not believe that a cat can become a dog. But I do believe that a lower species of cat can become a higher, more intelligent species of cat. Because I don't classify myself as a creationist, but only as a traditional Jew, I realise that the story of Creation can be understood in numerous ways.

I certainly believe that God created the universe. I think that denial of that is just plain stupid. But no, I am not for these Fundamentalist ideas that go in for a literal reading of Genesis.

Now, if you want my own reading of Genesis, consider the following. The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars were not created until the Fourth Day. So, given that to be the case, the length of a day could not be necessarily calculated to 24 hour periods without the sun, now could it? The length of the first four days could have been any length at all! This allows for all kinds of things to happen in terms of the scientific, the rise and fall of dinosaurs, etc. if Earth were on a clock, Humans would occupy that clock at 11.59 pm of that clock after the 23.58 hrs had been spent by the rest of Earth's history. So, might the Garden of Eden story be true? It might. Or there might be other explanations of Genesis that would be equally valid. I am open to conversation on the matter.

By the way, if you want to call me an Old Earth Creationist, that is your business. It is my business to deny such a title. So, to each his own.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 29, 2014, 10:09:34 AM
1. How long between Noah's flood and the genocide command?  Roughly?
2. When did God give the Noah laws to people?  (The ones non-jews follow)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 29, 2014, 10:57:28 AM
1. How long between Noah's flood and the genocide command?  Roughly?
2. When did God give the Noah laws to people?  (The ones non-jews follow)

The first question, I don't know. That would take some interesting math which I have no inclination to do. I am sure you could either (1), look at a published Bible timeline, or (2), work out the math for yourself, to get the results for that.

2. The Noahide Laws were given right after the Flood, so far as I am given to understand.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 29, 2014, 11:09:57 AM
An interesting article regarding Amalek:

"In 2006 Conservative Rabbi Jack Reimer, Bill Clinton's rabbinic counsel during his presidency, created a stir when he associated Islamic fundamentalism with the biblical nation of Amalek.

"I am becoming convinced that Islamic Fundamentalism, or, as some people prefer to call it, 'Islamo-fascism,' is the most dangerous force that we have ever faced and that it is worthy of the name: Amalek.

We must recognize who Amalek is in our generation, and we must prepare to fight it in every way we can. And may God help us in this task."

Who is Amalek?
According to the book of Exodus, Amalek is the nation that attacked the weakest among the Israelites as they fled from Egypt. This transgression was not to go unpunished. The Torah has a harsh prescription for Amalek: annihilation.

"It shall be that when Hashem, your God, gives you rest from all your enemies all around, in the Land that Hashem, your God, gives you as an inheritance to possess it, you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under the heaven. Do not forget it!" (Deuteronomy 25: 19; also see Exodus 17:14 and Numbers 24:20)

Blotting out the memory of Amalek was no mere psychological activity. The Israelites were expected to kill every Amalekite--man, woman, and child. But was this just a theoretical imperative or was it meant to be carried out?

The book of Samuel implies that it required actual fulfillment: "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox, and sheep, camel and ass,"(Samuel I, 15:3). King Saul struck down Amalek as he was commanded but he then took mercy upon King Agag and upon some of the Amalekite animals. God and the prophet Samuel harshly criticized Saul for not fulfilling God's word.

The point, of course, is that an invocation of Amalek is serious business. Rabbi Reimer wasn't issuing a literal call to arms, but by associating "Islamo-Fascists" with Amalek, Rabbi Reimer was referencing the Jewish tradition's genocidal instincts. Jewish authorities have struggled with this commandment for centuries, but the issue is perhaps even more urgent now.

For the last 2,000 years the Jewish people have lacked political sovereignty. With the return to the land of Israel, however, this is no longer the case. Invoking Amalek during the centuries of military impotency was one thing. Today, when there is a Jewish state with an army--and armed citizenry--it is quite another.

A Complicated History
The exegetical history of the commandment to destroy Amalek is complicated. The Talmud argues that the attacks and exiles of Sancherib, the king of Assyria and destroyer of Samaria, "mixed up the nations" over 2,500 years ago and thus all identity of the biblical nations has been lost (Berakhot 28a). This implies that all commands of exterminating nations were dismissed and that it is not appropriate to label any contemporary peoples as descendants of Amalek.

However, the Sefer HaHinnuch, a 13th century Spanish work, claims that the commandment still exists, demanding that every individual Jew kill every individual Amalekite man, woman, and child (mitzvah 604). Maimonides, on the other hand, argues that the command applies not to every individual, but to the Jewish nation as a whole (Hilkhot Melakhim 6).

Yet Maimonides also stated that the Jewish nation could accept converts from any nation in the world, including Amalek (Hilkhot Issurei Bia 12:17).

Most significantly, Maimonides contends that the Jewish nation can never launch a war with any nation (uniquely including Amalek and the seven Canaanite nations together) without first offering "a call to peace,"(keri'a l'shalom). If in this call to peace, the seven Noahide laws are accepted and peace is made, then no war is required (Hilkhot Melachim 6:1).

In the Guide for the Perplexed, Maimonides explains further that the command to wipe out Amalek isn't based on hatred, but on removing Amalek-like behavior from the world (3:41). For Maimonides, then, the commandment is not necessarily fulfilled through killing; it can be fulfilled through moral influence and education.

Deuteronomy 20 distinguishes between the obligatory war of conquest against the seven nations of Canaan and other wars. However, according to Maimonides and Nahmanides, the obligation to offer a call for peace is applied to both. Nahmanides, in quoting a midrash, also claims that there is an obligation of a Jewish army, laying siege upon a town, to provide an open direction to escape for those of the enemy who do not wish to fight  (Sefer Hamitzvot 5).

Some legal authorities were more eager to remove the command entirely from being applicable in our era. For example, in the 19th century, Rabbi Abraham Sachatchover  argued: "If they repent from their ways and accept the Noahide commandments, and they no longer continue in the path of their forefathers, they are no longer held responsible for the sins of their forefathers." (Avnei Neizer Orat Hayiim 2:508)

The Sachatchover Rebbe, like Maimonides, suggests that Amalek is a way of being, not a genetic trait. Shouldn't it be justified, then, for us to label contemporary enemies of the Jewish people Amalek? It appears, however, according to these interpretations, that the intention of the enemy must be first and foremost to destroy the Jewish people.

In addition to the rational legalists, the mystical thinkers in the Jewish tradition have also provided useful reinterpretations. Professor Avi Sagi demonstrated the claim of many Hasidic sources that the battle against Amalek was only intended to be a spiritual war.

Invoking Amalek
Even if most people would not invoke the commandment to destroy Amalek today, there are certainly those, like Rabbi Riemer, who have ventured to do so. And there has been no dearth of similar, violent invocations in reference to the Palestinians, as well. For example, Benzi Lieberman, the chairman of the Council of Settlements said in no uncertain terms: "The Palestinians are Amalek! We will destroy them. We won't kill them all. But we will destroy their ability to think as a nation. We will destroy Palestinian nationalism."

The general consensus among today's Jewish community seems to be that our energies can and must be used to stop the perpetuation of genocidal activity occurring throughout the world, to become agents for peace, and to dismiss any contemporary comparisons to the biblical paradigm. But clearly there are difficult texts and teaching that remain in our tradition that must be remembered and reckoned with.

Source: http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Issues/War_and_Peace/Combat_and_Conflict/Types_of_War/Genocide.shtml?p=0
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 30, 2014, 02:37:34 AM
Most significantly, Maimonides contends that the Jewish nation can never launch a war with any nation (uniquely including Amalek and the seven Canaanite nations together) without first offering "a call to peace,"(keri'a l'shalom). If in this call to peace, the seven Noahide laws are accepted and peace is made, then no war is required (Hilkhot Melachim 6:1).

That's a pretty big misnomer. This isn't asking for peace, it is asking for surrender.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 30, 2014, 02:54:02 AM


I re asked a question because you dodged it before, so I will ask it again:

How can you believe in micro-evolution but not macro-evolution which is merely an extension of the micro-evolutionary process?

It depends on how you are using the word "microevolution'. Allow me to elaborate. I do not believe that a cat can become a dog. But I do believe that a lower species of cat can become a higher, more intelligent species of cat. Because I don't classify myself as a creationist, but only as a traditional Jew, I realise that the story of Creation can be understood in numerous ways.

Do you believe that the changes in micro evolution can accumulate over time?  Say, a cat's nose becomes longer, its legs and tail shorter, it takes on a taste for ants because of its ecology and they develop progressively longer tongues to eat ants from their ant hills?

Quote
I certainly believe that God created the universe. I think that denial of that is just plain stupid.

Why stupid?  Is anyone who disagrees with you automatically stupid?

Quote
But no, I am not for these Fundamentalist ideas that go in for a literal reading of Genesis.

That would make you a Young Earth Creationist.

Quote
Now, if you want my own reading of Genesis, consider the following. The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars were not created until the Fourth Day. So, given that to be the case, the length of a day could not be necessarily calculated to 24 hour periods without the sun, now could it? The length of the first four days could have been any length at all! This allows for all kinds of things to happen in terms of the scientific, the rise and fall of dinosaurs, etc. if Earth were on a clock, Humans would occupy that clock at 11.59 pm of that clock after the 23.58 hrs had been spent by the rest of Earth's history. So, might the Garden of Eden story be true? It might. Or there might be other explanations of Genesis that would be equally valid. I am open to conversation on the matter.

By the way, if you want to call me an Old Earth Creationist, that is your business. It is my business to deny such a title. So, to each his own.

I am not sure how or why you would deny it.  Have a read through the [urk=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Earth_creationism]wiki page[/url] and check out Day-Age Creationists.  It is almost exactly what you just expressed.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 30, 2014, 04:17:02 AM
Most significantly, Maimonides contends that the Jewish nation can never launch a war with any nation (uniquely including Amalek and the seven Canaanite nations together) without first offering "a call to peace,"(keri'a l'shalom). If in this call to peace, the seven Noahide laws are accepted and peace is made, then no war is required (Hilkhot Melachim 6:1).

That's a pretty big misnomer. This isn't asking for peace, it is asking for surrender.

It is hardly asking for surrender to expect people to live by basic laws of civility. if you can't even manage to do that, then you don't deserve to exist, to be quite blunt.  Look up the Noahide Laws in Wikipedia. They don't ask for much.




I re asked a question because you dodged it before, so I will ask it again:

How can you believe in micro-evolution but not macro-evolution which is merely an extension of the micro-evolutionary process?

It depends on how you are using the word "microevolution'. Allow me to elaborate. I do not believe that a cat can become a dog. But I do believe that a lower species of cat can become a higher, more intelligent species of cat. Because I don't classify myself as a creationist, but only as a traditional Jew, I realise that the story of Creation can be understood in numerous ways.

Do you believe that the changes in micro evolution can accumulate over time?  Say, a cat's nose becomes longer, its legs and tail shorter, it takes on a taste for ants because of its ecology and they develop progressively longer tongues to eat ants from their ant hills?

No, I don't believe that cats can turn into anteaters, if that is your suggestion.

Quote
I certainly believe that God created the universe. I think that denial of that is just plain stupid.

Quote
Why stupid?  Is anyone who disagrees with you automatically stupid?


No. But anyone who thinks the Earth got here by random chance strikes me as a bit stupid, and anyone who thinks the Earth got here by NON-randomness, and yet without a creator, strikes me as incredibly stupid.

Quote
But no, I am not for these Fundamentalist ideas that go in for a literal reading of Genesis.

That would make you a Young Earth Creationist.

Quote
Now, if you want my own reading of Genesis, consider the following. The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars were not created until the Fourth Day. So, given that to be the case, the length of a day could not be necessarily calculated to 24 hour periods without the sun, now could it? The length of the first four days could have been any length at all! This allows for all kinds of things to happen in terms of the scientific, the rise and fall of dinosaurs, etc. if Earth were on a clock, Humans would occupy that clock at 11.59 pm of that clock after the 23.58 hrs had been spent by the rest of Earth's history. So, might the Garden of Eden story be true? It might. Or there might be other explanations of Genesis that would be equally valid. I am open to conversation on the matter.

By the way, if you want to call me an Old Earth Creationist, that is your business. It is my business to deny such a title. So, to each his own.

I am not sure how or why you would deny it.  Have a read through the [urk=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Earth_creationism]wiki page[/url] and check out Day-Age Creationists.  It is almost exactly what you just expressed.
[/quote]

I think we get a little storm-tossed in all our names for people. Call me whatever you want to call me. Do I believe that the Earth is 6000 years old? No. Do I believe in Evolution, at least to a point? Absolutely. Do I believe that God guided the process? Yes. Does it ultimately matter? Not really.It doesn't change the overall tenor of my life much, except when I want to ask questions that will cross a Rabbi's eyes. Then it can be fun, sure. It certainly is interesting. But if you are truly going to lose sleep over it, I would say that is not a good thing.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 30, 2014, 04:36:48 AM
People with no scientific knowledge making scientific assertions.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 30, 2014, 05:59:47 AM
People with no philosophical or religious knowledge making philosophical and religious assertions. Schmuck.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 30, 2014, 06:31:23 AM
Except evolution is not a philosophical or religious theory.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 30, 2014, 06:36:56 AM
I am inclined to agree, but your ideas about God are. And every uninformed, dipshit thing you have said about Judaism is. You brown nose Richard Dawkins so well its not surprising that you're an anti-Semitic little Nazi of a man.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 30, 2014, 07:32:59 AM
I am inclined to agree, but your ideas about God are. And every uninformed, dipshit thing you have said about Judaism is. You brown nose Richard Dawkins so well its not surprising that you're an anti-Semitic little Nazi of a man.

Haven't mentioned Dawkins once, but ok.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 30, 2014, 09:49:09 AM
Most significantly, Maimonides contends that the Jewish nation can never launch a war with any nation (uniquely including Amalek and the seven Canaanite nations together) without first offering "a call to peace,"(keri'a l'shalom). If in this call to peace, the seven Noahide laws are accepted and peace is made, then no war is required (Hilkhot Melachim 6:1).

That's a pretty big misnomer. This isn't asking for peace, it is asking for surrender.

It is hardly asking for surrender to expect people to live by basic laws of civility. if you can't even manage to do that, then you don't deserve to exist, to be quite blunt.  Look up the Noahide Laws in Wikipedia. They don't ask for much.
I read them and... Basic morality means servitude to God?  Because the whole idol and blasphomy thing kinda turns me off.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 30, 2014, 01:40:49 PM
It is hardly asking for surrender to expect people to live by basic laws of civility. if you can't even manage to do that, then you don't deserve to exist, to be quite blunt.  Look up the Noahide Laws in Wikipedia. They don't ask for much.

Those seven laws are mostly good except 1, 4 and 5. All of which include acknowledgement of archaic cultural beliefs only held by Jews, which again, leads me to say this is a demand for surrender, not peace.

In addition, forcing the other side to accept something is asking for surrender regardless. It wouldn't matter if your requirements were "you must accept our fruit gift basket or die." One of those options is surrender, not peace. I think you might have a very warped idea of what the term "peace" represents.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on October 30, 2014, 01:44:18 PM
Quote
1.The prohibition of idolatry.

No worshipping your own gods, surrender or die.

Quote
2.The prohibition of murder.
 3.The prohibition of theft.

I find it difficult to imagine the civilisations they were subjugating didn't have these already.

Quote
4.The prohibition of sexual immorality.

Ah, the endless question about what this means. Does it just mean cheating? Sex ouside of marriage? Sex other than for procreation? Interracial/tribal/religion sex? Homosexuality? Female as the dominant partner?

Have sex how and when we tell you, surrender or die.

Quote
5.The prohibition of blasphemy.

See 1

Quote
6.The prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive
 7.The requirement of maintaining courts to provide legal recourse.
.

Fair enough.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 30, 2014, 02:05:29 PM

No, I don't believe that cats can turn into anteaters, if that is your suggestion.

Specifically then, what sorts of changes are possible in your interpretation of micro-evolution?

Quote
No. But anyone who thinks the Earth got here by random chance strikes me as a bit stupid, and anyone who thinks the Earth got here by NON-randomness, and yet without a creator, strikes me as incredibly stupid.

I got that, I wanted to know why?

Quote
I think we get a little storm-tossed in all our names for people. Call me whatever you want to call me. Do I believe that the Earth is 6000 years old? No.

Old Earth Creationists do not believe that.



Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 30, 2014, 09:28:39 PM
Are jews allowed to drink alcohol and get drunk?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Shane on October 30, 2014, 09:51:54 PM
Is it crazy to say Hitler was just misunderstood?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 30, 2014, 09:53:52 PM
Is it crazy to say Hitler was just misunderstood?

No. Hitler did nothing wrong.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 30, 2014, 10:34:45 PM
Quote
1.The prohibition of idolatry.

Quote
No worshipping your own gods, surrender or die.

I'm not sure you're completely understanding that. It calls for monotheism. It does NOT specifically call for worshipping the God of Judaism. Although that would be ideal, Christians would qualify as being monotheistic, as would Muslims, and possibly some Hindus.

Quote
2.The prohibition of murder.
 3.The prohibition of theft.

Quote
I find it difficult to imagine the civilisations they were subjugating didn't have these already.

You may be right on that point.

Quote
4.The prohibition of sexual immorality.

Quote
Ah, the endless question about what this means. Does it just mean cheating? Sex ouside of marriage? Sex other than for procreation? Interracial/tribal/religion sex? Homosexuality? Female as the dominant partner?

Have sex how and when we tell you, surrender or die.

Given that the Hebrew Scriptures do not in any way forbid homosexuality, that point is irrelevant. We can discuss that point more thoroughly later.

Quote
5.The prohibition of blasphemy.

See 1

Quote
6.The prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive
 7.The requirement of maintaining courts to provide legal recourse.
.

Fair enough.



No, I don't believe that cats can turn into anteaters, if that is your suggestion.

Quote
Specifically then, what sorts of changes are possible in your interpretation of micro-evolution?

I am inclined to believe that animals within their species and subspecies can evolve. A cat can evolve into a different, more intelligent cat. But no, a cat cannot become a different type of species. As far as birds and dinosaurs, I have heard that there is some relationship there. I would need to know more before I could comment.

Quote
No. But anyone who thinks the Earth got here by random chance strikes me as a bit stupid, and anyone who thinks the Earth got here by NON-randomness, and yet without a creator, strikes me as incredibly stupid.

Quote
I got that, I wanted to know why?

Because either is essentially impossible. As a former bookie I know that the chances of either occurring aren't something that any bookie would even consider laying odds on.

Quote
I think we get a little storm-tossed in all our names for people. Call me whatever you want to call me. Do I believe that the Earth is 6000 years old? No.

Old Earth Creationists do not believe that.



Are jews allowed to drink alcohol and get drunk?

Jews are permitted to drink in moderation, and twice a year, to get drunk, during the festivals of Purim and Simchas Torah. However, the drunk person is still responsible for his behaviour during his drunken state, and is not relieved of obedience to commandments. Any habitual drunkenness is regarded as extremely sinful, bad behaviour.


Is it crazy to say Hitler was just misunderstood?

As stupid question.

Is it crazy to say Hitler was just misunderstood?

No. Hitler did nothing wrong.

An even stupider response.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 30, 2014, 11:13:27 PM
What about Leviticus 20:13?  Seems to be say pretty explicitly that sex with a man is punishable by death.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 30, 2014, 11:32:13 PM
Yes, it DOES say that. BUT, and this is a VERY big "but". It specifically says, thou shalt not lie with a man as thou liest with a woman, for it is abomination."

The Hebrew word for Abomination was referring not the sex itself, but to the manner of the sex, and it was referring to the fact that males had ritual sex with other males in the temples of Canaanite Faith. NOTICE: It says NOTHING about women lying with other women! Why not? Isn't that homosexuality? why condemn the one and not the other?

Also notice that it demands a Jew to grow a beard. Why? Because in nations around Israel, eunuchs were used as feminine ends of homosexual pairings. And eunuchs were not allowed to grow beards! Also notice it forbids castration of any male creature, human or animal? But if the condemnation is against homosexuality on a blanket level, why not just say "no being gay". Why specify only the submissive MALE end, but not the dominant male end, and no reference to the females at all?

And we go back to the word "Abomination". The Hebrew word specifically refers to sex in the ritual sense that is impure in the temples, and can be hetero or homosexual. The Holiness Code was telling male Jews how to be male. It wasn't directly forbidding homosexuality, although I do expect it probably was discouraged. But it is NOT directly forbidden.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 30, 2014, 11:41:45 PM
Yes but the Oral Law forbids consensual anal sex and if it is carried out in acknowledgement of a warning and in sight of two witnesses the punishment is death. Your interpretation seems to be very selective and quite fringe.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 31, 2014, 12:01:01 AM
My interpretation is becoming far less fringe every day. it is the official position of Reform and Conservative Judaism now, where non-celibate gay rabbis may be ordained.. Even Orthodoxy, although still maintaining the traditional line, are looking at the matter. I expect they won't change the official responsa for years, if ever. But they may become more tolerant of it informally. And there are a lot of things gay persons do that aren't butt sex. I mean, I'm not gay, but still, i'm not completely stupid. In studying human sexuality, I learned a bit about this kind of thing.

Personally, I find no issues with homosexuals, although I am not one. I don't do butt sex  for religious reasons, and I don't think any person should with women or with men, but that is a matter of one's personal conscience, and not of my personal business.

Views are changing. Judaism has always been a Faith that has changed to account for its time and place. It's not about to stop doing that now.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 31, 2014, 12:30:43 AM
Not there yet and Israeli mainstream is still accommodating to homophobic orthodox.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 31, 2014, 02:18:42 AM
Well, not really. Tel Aviv has a very busy gay nightlife, from what I am given to understand, and one of the largest gay pride parades in countries under Western influence.

And the Orthodox are being dragged into reality. Their exemption from military service is being reconsidered as we speak. It is likely that within five years or less, they will be obligated to serve in the military like every other Jew is, and as the Druze are (at the request of their own community's leadership). And more and more pressure is being put on the Israeli State to recognise non-Orthodox strains of Judaism as well. It hasn't happened yet, but I think it will, within about 10 years. And IMNSHO, it can't happen soon enough.

Recommendation: Before opening your yap, get your data straight.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 31, 2014, 02:51:11 AM
Well, not really. Tel Aviv has a very busy gay nightlife, from what I am given to understand, and one of the largest gay pride parades in countries under Western influence.

And the Orthodox are being dragged into reality. Their exemption from military service is being reconsidered as we speak. It is likely that within five years or less, they will be obligated to serve in the military like every other Jew is, and as the Druze are (at the request of their own community's leadership). And more and more pressure is being put on the Israeli State to recognise non-Orthodox strains of Judaism as well. It hasn't happened yet, but I think it will, within about 10 years. And IMNSHO, it can't happen soon enough.

Recommendation: Before opening your yap, get your data straight.

I meant the religious mainstream.  Regardless, your contention that "...the Hebrew Scriptures do not in any way forbid homosexuality, that point is irrelevant." is demonstrably false.  So much for your attempted high ground on getting data straight, you can't do that within the religion you supposedly follow so fervently.  Furthermore, there are more than one form of so-called sexual immorality that could be imposed upon a people that are not particularly immoral.  I would say that imposition of this Noahide law would be a call to surrender after all.




Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 31, 2014, 02:52:33 AM
I'm not sure you're completely understanding that. It calls for monotheism. It does NOT specifically call for worshipping the God of Judaism. Although that would be ideal, Christians would qualify as being monotheistic, as would Muslims, and possibly some Hindus.

It doesn't call for monotheism, it says specifically "no idolatry" which means no worship of idols [that are not the jewish god]. It basically means only atheists are reasonably following this law. A Christian, for example, worships Christ before God (because in Christianity Christ is literally God) so that would actually be idolatry under Judaism.

Given that the Hebrew Scriptures do not in any way forbid homosexuality, that point is irrelevant. We can discuss that point more thoroughly later.

Then what exactly does it define as "sexual immorality"? That's an awfully vague thing to make a law about.

[Blasphemy Law]
See 1

You're still demanding people not make fun of your religion or you'll kill them. That isn't even remotely what peace is.

I am inclined to believe that animals within their species and subspecies can evolve. A cat can evolve into a different, more intelligent cat. But no, a cat cannot become a different type of species. As far as birds and dinosaurs, I have heard that there is some relationship there. I would need to know more before I could comment.

This doesn't make any sense. You're saying you believe evolution and then following it up with saying you don't believe evolution. The mechanics aren't different between the evolution of a species and the overall change of one species to the next. You either accept the evidence that life can evolve or you don't. Stop trying to play mental gymnastics, it hurts more than it helps.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 31, 2014, 02:54:04 AM
Stop trying to play mental gymnastics.

Well that was generous.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 31, 2014, 03:56:42 AM
Well, not really. Tel Aviv has a very busy gay nightlife, from what I am given to understand, and one of the largest gay pride parades in countries under Western influence.

And the Orthodox are being dragged into reality. Their exemption from military service is being reconsidered as we speak. It is likely that within five years or less, they will be obligated to serve in the military like every other Jew is, and as the Druze are (at the request of their own community's leadership). And more and more pressure is being put on the Israeli State to recognise non-Orthodox strains of Judaism as well. It hasn't happened yet, but I think it will, within about 10 years. And IMNSHO, it can't happen soon enough.

Recommendation: Before opening your yap, get your data straight.

I meant the religious mainstream.  Regardless, your contention that "...the Hebrew Scriptures do not in any way forbid homosexuality, that point is irrelevant." is demonstrably false.  So much for your attempted high ground on getting data straight, you can't do that within the religion you supposedly follow so fervently.  Furthermore, there are more than one form of so-called sexual immorality that could be imposed upon a people that are not particularly immoral.  I would say that imposition of this Noahide law would be a call to surrender after all.

If it is demonstrably false, you have to demonstrate that it is false. The Orthodox have failed to do that. I admit, my views on the subject are at present deemed "liberal'. But I don't think they will be for long. And in terms of Judaism imposing much of anything in that respect, I don't think that anyone would have to worry, for the simple reason that Jews engage in pilpul just for the sake of it. You know the old joke. When you have four Jews in a room, you have five opinions. So, no, I wouldn't think there would be a call for surrender at all.


I'm not sure you're completely understanding that. It calls for monotheism. It does NOT specifically call for worshipping the God of Judaism. Although that would be ideal, Christians would qualify as being monotheistic, as would Muslims, and possibly some Hindus.

Quote
It doesn't call for monotheism, it says specifically "no idolatry" which means no worship of idols [that are not the jewish god]. It basically means only atheists are reasonably following this law. A Christian, for example, worships Christ before God (because in Christianity Christ is literally God) so that would actually be idolatry under Judaism.

You would think so. But, Jewish theologians have generally accorded Christianity a place among the monotheisms of the world.

Given that the Hebrew Scriptures do not in any way forbid homosexuality, that point is irrelevant. We can discuss that point more thoroughly later.

Quote
Then what exactly does it define as "sexual immorality"? That's an awfully vague thing to make a law about.

Sexual immorality can be defined by a lot of things. If you want a full definition, I would try a good dictionary on Jewish halacha.  Of course, the best source is the Jewish Scripture, obviously.

[Blasphemy Law]
See 1

Quote
You're still demanding people not make fun of your religion or you'll kill them. That isn't even remotely what peace is.

Most civilised beings try not to insult any religions. I understand, of course, that atheists are generally less than civilised.

I am inclined to believe that animals within their species and subspecies can evolve. A cat can evolve into a different, more intelligent cat. But no, a cat cannot become a different type of species. As far as birds and dinosaurs, I have heard that there is some relationship there. I would need to know more before I could comment.

Quote
This doesn't make any sense. You're saying you believe evolution and then following it up with saying you don't believe evolution. The mechanics aren't different between the evolution of a species and the overall change of one species to the next. You either accept the evidence that life can evolve or you don't. Stop trying to play mental gymnastics, it hurts more than it helps.

I am inclined to disagree with you, and the statement about mental gymnastics approaches the ad hominem. It simply indicates a puerile nature in yourself.


Stop trying to play mental gymnastics.

Well that was generous.

Also indicative of a puerile nature in yourself.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 31, 2014, 04:03:29 AM
You would think so. But, Jewish theologians have generally accorded Christianity a place among the monotheisms of the world.

Where are you getting that we're discussing monotheism? Idolatry has nothing to do with how many gods a religion has.


Most civilised beings try not to insult any religions. I understand, of course, that atheists are generally less than civilised.

Haha, okay, at least you admit freedom of speech is not a freedom Judaism believes in.


I am inclined to disagree with you, and the statement about mental gymnastics approaches the ad hominem. It simply indicates a puerile nature in yourself.

Okay. You simply say "I disagree" and then insult me. I explained why you're wrong before I insulted you, perhaps you should try that approach.

You either agree that DNA can mutate or you don't. Stop trying to argue that DNA only mutates the way you want it to.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 31, 2014, 04:11:08 AM
You would think so. But, Jewish theologians have generally accorded Christianity a place among the monotheisms of the world.

Quote
Where are you getting that we're discussing monotheism? Idolatry has nothing to do with how many gods a religion has.

Judaism and Islam, the predominant monotheisms, also forbid idolatry. Christianity does to a point as well, and it is a monotheism as well, albeit a bit strange with that Trinity business.

Most civilised beings try not to insult any religions. I understand, of course, that atheists are generally less than civilised.

Quote
Haha, okay, at least you admit freedom of speech is not a freedom Judaism believes in.

I admit nothing the sort. I merely acknowledge that it is uncivilised to insult a person's religion. Atheists are the only people who generally do that. They tend toward the uncivilised.

I am inclined to disagree with you, and the statement about mental gymnastics approaches the ad hominem. It simply indicates a puerile nature in yourself.

Quote
Okay. You simply say "I disagree" and then insult me. At least I explained why you're wrong before I insulted you. May I also suggest you take a biology course at some point in your lifetime.

I have taken a couple. Your point?


Time for bed. See you tomorrow.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 31, 2014, 04:17:06 AM
Judaism and Islam, the predominant monotheisms, also forbid idolatry. Christianity does to a point as well, and it is a monotheism as well, albeit a bit strange with that Trinity business.

Except they all forbid idolatry before their god. And no, their god is not your god. To a Muslim, the Jewish and Christian gods are false idols. To a Christian, both Muslims and Jews worship a false idol. And yes, to Jews (except you, apparently) Muslims and Christians worship false idols.

I admit nothing the sort. I merely acknowledge that it is uncivilised to insult a person's religion. Atheists are the only people who generally do that. They tend toward the uncivilised.

So you agree that a law against blasphemy is dumb, then? I feel like I'm arguing with an agnostic more than a Jew, you never outright state anything.

I have taken a couple. Your point?

I'll make it simple. Do you believe DNA mutates? Yes/No.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 31, 2014, 04:33:55 AM
Well, not really. Tel Aviv has a very busy gay nightlife, from what I am given to understand, and one of the largest gay pride parades in countries under Western influence.

And the Orthodox are being dragged into reality. Their exemption from military service is being reconsidered as we speak. It is likely that within five years or less, they will be obligated to serve in the military like every other Jew is, and as the Druze are (at the request of their own community's leadership). And more and more pressure is being put on the Israeli State to recognise non-Orthodox strains of Judaism as well. It hasn't happened yet, but I think it will, within about 10 years. And IMNSHO, it can't happen soon enough.

Recommendation: Before opening your yap, get your data straight.

I meant the religious mainstream.  Regardless, your contention that "...the Hebrew Scriptures do not in any way forbid homosexuality, that point is irrelevant." is demonstrably false.  So much for your attempted high ground on getting data straight, you can't do that within the religion you supposedly follow so fervently.  Furthermore, there are more than one form of so-called sexual immorality that could be imposed upon a people that are not particularly immoral.  I would say that imposition of this Noahide law would be a call to surrender after all.

If it is demonstrably false, you have to demonstrate that it is false. The Orthodox have failed to do that. I admit, my views on the subject are at present deemed "liberal'. But I don't think they will be for long. And in terms of Judaism imposing much of anything in that respect, I don't think that anyone would have to worry, for the simple reason that Jews engage in pilpul just for the sake of it. You know the old joke. When you have four Jews in a room, you have five opinions. So, no, I wouldn't think there would be a call for surrender at all.


Everything I have read, except your own objection,  says that the passage in Leviticus is a ban on homosexual sex.  This is bolstered by the Oral Law stating that two men shall not engage in sodomy, no matter in a temple or not.  The basis of your objection is a bizarre syntax of the sentence whereby the descriptor "abomination" refers to no explicit notion in the sentence, but some shoe-horned caveat that you weakly introduced in your post.  In fact, the manner of sex which is banned is homosexual sex!  So I have the interpretation of the majority of Jewish thought on my side, and have only your muddled objection barring it.

I think, in this case, you are wrong.

I admit nothing the sort. I merely acknowledge that it is uncivilised to insult a person's religion. Atheists are the only people who generally do that. They tend toward the uncivilised.

So are you an atheist then? There are probably a dozen dozen quotes that could be pulled from this thread where you insult Islam. I imagine this is not the only place you do that either.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on October 31, 2014, 08:39:40 AM
Regardless of the last minutiae of detail in the 'no idols/blasphemy/sexual immorality' rules, the fact that you demand that a people accept Jewish interpretation of these rules or be destroyed is a demand for surrender, not peace.

The people of ISIS could argue that they're peaceful by that logic:
"Hey, we're not going to hurt you if you convert to our narrow interpretation of Islam and don't attack us."
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 31, 2014, 09:37:46 AM
Nah, they're cunts to their own followers as well.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 31, 2014, 11:01:41 AM
Judaism and Islam, the predominant monotheisms, also forbid idolatry. Christianity does to a point as well, and it is a monotheism as well, albeit a bit strange with that Trinity business.

Quote
Except they all forbid idolatry before their god. And no, their god is not your god. To a Muslim, the Jewish and Christian gods are false idols. To a Christian, both Muslims and Jews worship a false idol. And yes, to Jews (except you, apparently) Muslims and Christians worship false idols.

THIS IS FUN. Actually, Most Muslims and Jews and Christians tend to acknowledge that each is worshipping essentially the same Deity. Arabic speaking Christians, for example, use the word "Allah' to refer to the First Person of the Trinity, "God the Father". Arabic speaking Jews have been known to use the term to refer to Adonai the Lord, since we do not use the Personal Name of God. So, thank you for making yourself look like a schmuck.

I admit nothing the sort. I merely acknowledge that it is uncivilised to insult a person's religion. Atheists are the only people who generally do that. They tend toward the uncivilised.

Quote
So you agree that a law against blasphemy is dumb, then? I feel like I'm arguing with an agnostic more than a Jew, you never outright state anything.

I didn't say that either. In fact, I think the only people uncivilised enough to commit deliberate blasphemy are the  atheists.

I have taken a couple. Your point?

I'll make it simple. Do you believe DNA mutates? Yes/No.

I'll refrain from answering that until I have more data. But I repeat that I do NOT believe that a cat can become a dog.



Well, not really. Tel Aviv has a very busy gay nightlife, from what I am given to understand, and one of the largest gay pride parades in countries under Western influence.

And the Orthodox are being dragged into reality. Their exemption from military service is being reconsidered as we speak. It is likely that within five years or less, they will be obligated to serve in the military like every other Jew is, and as the Druze are (at the request of their own community's leadership). And more and more pressure is being put on the Israeli State to recognise non-Orthodox strains of Judaism as well. It hasn't happened yet, but I think it will, within about 10 years. And IMNSHO, it can't happen soon enough.

Recommendation: Before opening your yap, get your data straight.

I meant the religious mainstream.  Regardless, your contention that "...the Hebrew Scriptures do not in any way forbid homosexuality, that point is irrelevant." is demonstrably false.  So much for your attempted high ground on getting data straight, you can't do that within the religion you supposedly follow so fervently.  Furthermore, there are more than one form of so-called sexual immorality that could be imposed upon a people that are not particularly immoral.  I would say that imposition of this Noahide law would be a call to surrender after all.

If it is demonstrably false, you have to demonstrate that it is false. The Orthodox have failed to do that. I admit, my views on the subject are at present deemed "liberal'. But I don't think they will be for long. And in terms of Judaism imposing much of anything in that respect, I don't think that anyone would have to worry, for the simple reason that Jews engage in pilpul just for the sake of it. You know the old joke. When you have four Jews in a room, you have five opinions. So, no, I wouldn't think there would be a call for surrender at all.


Quote
Everything I have read, except your own objection,  says that the passage in Leviticus is a ban on homosexual sex.  This is bolstered by the Oral Law stating that two men shall not engage in sodomy, no matter in a temple or not.  The basis of your objection is a bizarre syntax of the sentence whereby the descriptor "abomination" refers to no explicit notion in the sentence, but some shoe-horned caveat that you weakly introduced in your post.  In fact, the manner of sex which is banned is homosexual sex!  So I have the interpretation of the majority of Jewish thought on my side, and have only your muddled objection barring it.

I think, in this case, you are wrong.

You are of course welcome to think as you wish. And yes, from the Orthodox perspective you are correct. But, the Conservatives and the Reform have both changed their position, and the Orthodox are beginning to consider the matter. I've already said that at present, my views are considered "liberal". I don't dispute that. But I expect that within five to ten years, they will become standard thought within Judaism (and within mainline Christianity as well). In fact, within mainline Protestant Christianity, the Episcopal Church already blesses gay unions, and I expect others to follow. The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America already allows the ordination of non-celibate gay ministers (as does the Episcopal Church).

I admit nothing the sort. I merely acknowledge that it is uncivilised to insult a person's religion. Atheists are the only people who generally do that. They tend toward the uncivilised.

Quote
So are you an atheist then? There are probably a dozen dozen quotes that could be pulled from this thread where you insult Islam. I imagine this is not the only place you do that either.

I never insult Islam in terms of its theology or its basic beliefs, many of which I happen to agree with. Their beliefs about God happen to be far closer to our own than anybody else's on the planet, pretty much. I insult its tendency to want to blow shit up, and its tendency to want to make everybody be good little Muslims or live as second-class citizens. There is a difference. Schmuck.


Regardless of the last minutiae of detail in the 'no idols/blasphemy/sexual immorality' rules, the fact that you demand that a people accept Jewish interpretation of these rules or be destroyed is a demand for surrender, not peace.

The people of ISIS could argue that they're peaceful by that logic:
"Hey, we're not going to hurt you if you convert to our narrow interpretation of Islam and don't attack us."

Depending on who is doing the interpretation, I think that is a serious risk, I'll admit. That is why you can't have some crazy bastard at the helm. I understand that as well as you do.


Nah, they're cunts to their own followers as well.

For about the second time in this thread, I actually agree with you.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 31, 2014, 01:49:39 PM
Oh Yaakov: Evolution has never stated a cat can become a dog.  Such a change is magic, not evolution.
However, the Dormaalocyon latouri is the common ancestor to the cat and dog.  So technically that species could become a cat or a dog.  (though it would take many species in between to do it)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 31, 2014, 01:51:53 PM

You are of course welcome to think as you wish.

It has nothing to do with what I think, it what the Torah says.

Quote
And yes, from the Orthodox perspective you are correct. But, the Conservatives and the Reform have both changed their position, and the Orthodox are beginning to consider the matter.

People can shoehorn the passage all they want, it does not change the fact that the Torah has a ban on homosexual sex and it is supported by the Oral Law.

Quote
I've already said that at present, my views are considered "liberal". I don't dispute that. But I expect that within five to ten years, they will become standard thought within Judaism (and within mainline Christianity as well). In fact, within mainline Protestant Christianity, the Episcopal Church already blesses gay unions, and I expect others to follow. The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America already allows the ordination of non-celibate gay ministers (as does the Episcopal Church).

Irrelevant.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 31, 2014, 01:52:47 PM
Oh Yaakov: Evolution has never stated a cat can become a dog.  Such a change is magic, not evolution.
However, the Dormaalocyon latouri is the common ancestor to the cat and dog.  So technically that species could become a cat or a dog.  (though it would take many species in between to do it)

Don't confuse him.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Thork on October 31, 2014, 06:54:25 PM
Oh Yaakov: Evolution has never stated a cat can become a dog.  Such a change is magic, not evolution.
Yes it has. Scientists call that convergent evolution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_evolution).
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 31, 2014, 06:59:20 PM
Oh Yaakov: Evolution has never stated a cat can become a dog.  Such a change is magic, not evolution.
Yes it has. Scientists call that convergent evolution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_evolution).

Convergent evolution describes why so many different creatures have arrived at similar features.  Not why a cat can become a dog.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Thork on October 31, 2014, 07:00:40 PM
Oh Yaakov: Evolution has never stated a cat can become a dog.  Such a change is magic, not evolution.
Yes it has. Scientists call that convergent evolution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_evolution).

Convergent evolution describes why so many different creatures have arrived at similar features.  Not why a cat can become a dog.
No, if a cat and dog indulge in convergent evolution, cats will become dogs. They will be indistinguishable. I'm not saying that happens with cats and dogs, only that evolution theorists do have a fall back for such a ludicrous claim.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 31, 2014, 07:08:05 PM
Oh Yaakov: Evolution has never stated a cat can become a dog.  Such a change is magic, not evolution.
Yes it has. Scientists call that convergent evolution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_evolution).

Convergent evolution describes why so many different creatures have arrived at similar features.  Not why a cat can become a dog.
No, if a cat and dog indulge in convergent evolution, cats will become dogs. They will be indistinguishable. I'm not saying that happens with cats and dogs, only that evolution theorists do have a fall back for such a ludicrous claim.

No your source says:

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_evolution
Convergent evolution describes the independent evolution of similar features in species of different lineages.

So if a cat and dogs indulge(??) in convergent evolution, they would both arrive at having a keen sense of smell for example.  You will notice, that by definition, to indulge (it's starting to grow on me) in convergent evolution, there must be different species involved.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on October 31, 2014, 07:12:06 PM
Thork is once again wrong. Convergent evolution is the idea the a species will evolve similar traits in order to fill specific roles that don't change. For example, animals evolve noses above their mouth rather than anywhere else because they need to sense the smell of food before eating it and because pungent food smells rise in air. In addition, animals evolve two (complex) eyes because more than two is too energy consuming and less than two results in a lack of depth perception.

I could go on for a while but hopefully Thork gets the point.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on October 31, 2014, 07:16:01 PM
How do you get "cats become dogs" from convergent evolution?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 31, 2014, 07:17:17 PM
Anyone have any tips on how to turn my dog into a cat or vice versa?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on October 31, 2014, 07:23:42 PM
Anyone have any tips on how to turn my dog into a cat or vice versa?

You just use convergent evolution. Aren't you paying attention?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on October 31, 2014, 07:33:32 PM
Anyone have any tips on how to turn my dog into a cat or vice versa?

You just use convergent evolution. Aren't you paying attention?

How many points in BS do I have to invest to learn this craft?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on October 31, 2014, 08:34:51 PM
By convergent evolution hasn't this already occurred?  Cats and dogs both have heightened senses of smell and hearing. 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on October 31, 2014, 08:42:01 PM
By convergent evolution hasn't this already occurred?  Cats and dogs both have heightened senses of smell and hearing. 

Science is right!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 31, 2014, 09:56:11 PM

You are of course welcome to think as you wish.

It has nothing to do with what I think, it what the Torah says.

Quote
And yes, from the Orthodox perspective you are correct. But, the Conservatives and the Reform have both changed their position, and the Orthodox are beginning to consider the matter.

Quote
People can shoehorn the passage all they want, it does not change the fact that the Torah has a ban on homosexual sex and it is supported by the Oral Law.

To be direct, the Torah as directly understood usually forbade sex out of marriage, and since no provision was made for gay marriage, that meant effectively that gay sex wasn't permitted. BUT, and again, that is the key word, you will note that there is no forbidding of women lying with women. If God was forbidding gay sex, wouldn't it have been easier to just say "don't be gay"? I am not arguing how the text was interpreted. I agree that historically, gay sex has been forbidden in Judaism. This is not what is being disputed. What is being disputed is whether GOD forbade it or not. It is my position that the proper interpretation of the text is that he did not. This is also the interpretation of the Conservative (from now on called USCJ) and Reform (from now on called URJ) Movements. The Orthodox are even beginning to ask whether their traditional interpretation of the text is in line with what God intended. In Christianity, the Episcopal Church (from now on called ECUSA) and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (from now on called ELCA) have come to the same conclusion as USCJ and URJ.

The reason Christianity is indeed relevant is simple: Christianity in the United States is 86% of the population. And the mainline churches, of which ECUSA and ELCA have been among the most influential, have all been bouncing ideas off the liberal streams of Judaism since the founding of said movements within Judaism. URJ is considered "Mainline" as far as Judaism goes, in this country. USCJ is essentially also "Mainline". Most Jews in the USA that choose to affiliate with a synagogue or temple do so in one
of these two movements. Orthodoxy accounts for only 10% of American Jews who affiliate. So the Mainline Protestants and the Mainline Judaisms have been bedfellows (even if they haven't wanted to admit it) for the last 150 years or so.

Quote
I've already said that at present, my views are considered "liberal". I don't dispute that. But I expect that within five to ten years, they will become standard thought within Judaism (and within mainline Christianity as well). In fact, within mainline Protestant Christianity, the Episcopal Church already blesses gay unions, and I expect others to follow. The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America already allows the ordination of non-celibate gay ministers (as does the Episcopal Church).

Irrelevant.


Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 31, 2014, 10:00:08 PM
I know only what I read about convergent evolution from the Wikipedia article, but I can see that Thork is NOT correct. Even I can see that much. Sorry, Thork. I don't mean to be nasty, but I think you need to reread the article.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on October 31, 2014, 11:02:09 PM
Is the Earth flat?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on October 31, 2014, 11:20:07 PM
Wouldn't another way to look at the whole "man laying with a man but no mention of women" be that they were largely overlooked at that time.  How many women does God speak to in the Bible?  I can't think of any off the top of my head, he is always speaking to men.  If men are his target audience then it makes sense he wouldn't really mention anything about women.  Are there any restrictive laws specifically about woman as there are with men and their beard?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on October 31, 2014, 11:44:58 PM
OH MY GOD! DUDE! You seriously need to read what you call the Old Testament! There are HUGE amounts of material on women. The laws on Niddah (purification after menstruation, and other matters of female purity) alone cover PAGES and PAGES of material. Judaism goes APESHIT over that kind of thing! Its in the Hebrew Bible, and covers a few volumes of the Talmud alone! WOW! And yes. God talked to Eve. He talked to Samuel's mother Hannah. Those are just two examples. There are many more. I am not going to go digging for examples at the moment, but seriously, go get a Bible, and have a look-see.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on November 01, 2014, 12:07:48 AM
Wouldn't another way to look at the whole "man laying with a man but no mention of women" be that they were largely overlooked at that time.  How many women does God speak to in the Bible?  I can't think of any off the top of my head, he is always speaking to men.  If men are his target audience then it makes sense he wouldn't really mention anything about women.  Are there any restrictive laws specifically about woman as there are with men and their beard?

Or...
Lesbians are hot.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 01, 2014, 12:21:00 AM
Wouldn't another way to look at the whole "man laying with a man but no mention of women" be that they were largely overlooked at that time.  How many women does God speak to in the Bible?  I can't think of any off the top of my head, he is always speaking to men.  If men are his target audience then it makes sense he wouldn't really mention anything about women.  Are there any restrictive laws specifically about woman as there are with men and their beard?

Or...
Lesbians are hot.

ROTFLMFAO!!!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on November 01, 2014, 12:51:36 AM
Why doesn't the bible restrict womens' lower beard?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 01, 2014, 06:34:26 PM
So where were we? Any further thoughts on previously posted material? Any questions on new topics relating to Judaism in general, serious inquiries only, please?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on November 01, 2014, 07:14:51 PM
So where were we? Any further thoughts on previously posted material? Any questions on new topics relating to Judaism in general, serious inquiries only, please?
Why does God give Jews so many rules and everyone else so few?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Shane on November 01, 2014, 07:37:10 PM
Why don't Jews adopt a hat that fits?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 01, 2014, 07:40:35 PM
THAT is an excellent question! Thank you. There are several arguments about why Jews were given the Torah, with its 613 Commandments, vs non-Jews, with the Seven Laws of Noah only.

Essentially I think it comes down to the following:

Observe:

1. God created man. Man then fell, and was kicked out of Eden (however you wish to interpret that, literally, metaphorically, etc).
2. God saw that man became so evil that he destroyed most of us. Noah and his family lived, and God swore never to destroy man again. He blessed man through Noah, and gave man universal laws.
3. But man could not even keep those laws. Man continued to fuck up.
4. So this time, God decided to have a special nation. He started with Abraham. Abraham was given two children. One was promised a nation, but not land per se. The other was promised a land, namely, Eretz Israel.
5. The Hebrews, even with their own nation, STILL were not faithful to God. So God gave them more and more laws to make them a people set apart from others. By doing this, by making us more obedient, he defined us further as a people, as a nation. Jews became distinctive. By making us a people set apart, he assigned us a special destiny. Just as he gave us a priesthood (the Cohanim and the Levites) to serve the Temple, so did he make us a Priesthood, a Holy Kingdom unto the nations. But just as the Cohanim and the Levites have more commandments (ie, some of the 613 apply only to them and not to the rest of us) to follow than other Jews, so do Jews have more commandments to follow than other persons.

This is the best explanation I have for you. I don't know if that satisfies you or not. But there you go.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on November 01, 2014, 08:23:12 PM
So let me make sure I understand you:

When God see's humans sinning, he wipes them out.  When that doesn't work he takes some of them and gives them a "special" place.  When THAT doesn't work he gives them very detailed rules on things like what to eat and how.  This made them "Special".
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 01, 2014, 08:34:02 PM
Rather nastily said, but essentially accurate. NOW, mind you, there are other explanations. By now, I am sure you have realised that Jews can't just have one opinion on anything. Some believe that God offered the Torah to every nation, but only the Jews accepted it. Some few even believe that God threatened us at Sinai with Mt Sinai itself being uprooted and dropped on our heads if we did NOT  accept the Covenant. Of  course, such is a view is fringe.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 01, 2014, 08:35:45 PM
Have to catch a nap. Be back soon.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on November 01, 2014, 08:48:11 PM
So let me make sure I understand you:

When God see's humans sinning, he wipes them out.  When that doesn't work he takes some of them and gives them a "special" place.  When THAT doesn't work he gives them very detailed rules on things like what to eat and how.  This made them "Special".

Then they started arguing about their "special place" and war broke out. Millions were slaughtered. And more are being killed even as we speak.

You forgot that part.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 01, 2014, 11:02:46 PM
So let me make sure I understand you:

When God see's humans sinning, he wipes them out.  When that doesn't work he takes some of them and gives them a "special" place.  When THAT doesn't work he gives them very detailed rules on things like what to eat and how.  This made them "Special".

Then they started arguing about their "special place" and war broke out. Millions were slaughtered. And more are being killed even as we speak.

You forgot that part.


No, someone else got the about a promise of Land wrong, and thought it applied to them.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on November 01, 2014, 11:03:37 PM
So let me make sure I understand you:

When God see's humans sinning, he wipes them out.  When that doesn't work he takes some of them and gives them a "special" place.  When THAT doesn't work he gives them very detailed rules on things like what to eat and how.  This made them "Special".

Then they started arguing about their "special place" and war broke out. Millions were slaughtered. And more are being killed even as we speak.

You forgot that part.


No, someone else got the about a promise of Land wrong, and thought it applied to them.

So? It's still boils down to God initially causing the problem. I guess God didn't understand his creations as well as he thought, because he should have known that giving a special group of people a "special place" would cause strife and turmoil. What a dumbass God was.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 01, 2014, 11:06:36 PM
So let me make sure I understand you:

When God see's humans sinning, he wipes them out.  When that doesn't work he takes some of them and gives them a "special" place.  When THAT doesn't work he gives them very detailed rules on things like what to eat and how.  This made them "Special".

Then they started arguing about their "special place" and war broke out. Millions were slaughtered. And more are being killed even as we speak.

You forgot that part.


No, someone else got the about a promise of Land wrong, and thought it applied to them.

So? It's still boils down to God initially causing the problem. I guess God didn't understand his creations as well as he thought, because he should have known that giving a special group of people a "special place" would cause strife and turmoil. What a dumbass God was.

No, i don't think God was a dumbass. I think he expects us to find ways out of sticky little "situations".
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on November 01, 2014, 11:09:17 PM
No, i don't think God was a dumbass. I think he expects us to find ways out of sticky little "situations".

That he causes?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 01, 2014, 11:12:10 PM
He didn't cause it. He gave the land to the Jews. The fact that there is a group too dense to see that is not his fault. He also blessed Ishmael. The fact that Ishmael doesn't get it right cannot be held against God.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on November 01, 2014, 11:14:11 PM
He didn't cause it. He gave the land to the Jews. The fact that there is a group too dense to see that is not his fault. He also blessed Ishmael. The fact that Ishmael doesn't get it right cannot be held against God.

He caused it by exclusively giving land to the Jews instead of to everyone, or to no one.

That's called favoritism and it's usually viewed as a negative thing. Why would God practice favoritism? Shouldn't he view all his creations as equal? Why would God have such a negative character trait? Could it be that he doesn't actually exist??
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 01, 2014, 11:18:32 PM
He didn't cause it. He gave the land to the Jews. The fact that there is a group too dense to see that is not his fault. He also blessed Ishmael. The fact that Ishmael doesn't get it right cannot be held against God.

He caused it by exclusively giving land to the Jews instead of to everyone, or to no one.

That's called favoritism and it's usually viewed as a negative thing. Why would God practice favoritism? Shouldn't he view all his creations as equal? Why would God have such a negative character trait? Could it be that he doesn't actually exist??

Good question! The reason God gave land to the Jews is because we are a nation set apart for God's service. We are the pristhood, the holy kingdom between God and man. I don't know if that is understandable to anyone other than a Jew.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on November 01, 2014, 11:25:00 PM
He didn't cause it. He gave the land to the Jews. The fact that there is a group too dense to see that is not his fault. He also blessed Ishmael. The fact that Ishmael doesn't get it right cannot be held against God.

He caused it by exclusively giving land to the Jews instead of to everyone, or to no one.

That's called favoritism and it's usually viewed as a negative thing. Why would God practice favoritism? Shouldn't he view all his creations as equal? Why would God have such a negative character trait? Could it be that he doesn't actually exist??

Good question! The reason God gave land to the Jews is because we are a nation set apart for God's service. We are the pristhood, the holy kingdom between God and man. I don't know if that is understandable to anyone other than a Jew.

Still sounds like favoritism.

"the practice of giving unfair preferential treatment to one person or group at the expense of another."

Unfair. That's exactly what it is. Surely God knows the difference between right and wrong, right? Surely he knew the outcome before actually giving the land to the Jews... which means he knew that it would lead to bloodshed. Why would he do something that leads to such a gruesome outcome? Isn't he all knowing?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 01, 2014, 11:30:34 PM
Of course he is. I expect he did know. But that does not change the fact that God had to choose a perfect nation to light the way for others. The damage caused from that cannot be led to God's door. "I shall bless those who bless thee, and curse those who curse thee."
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on November 01, 2014, 11:35:19 PM
The damage caused from that cannot be led to God's door.

It can be when he willingly gave special treatment to a group of people knowing that the outcome would be disastrous. Why is God exempt from blame?  ???
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 01, 2014, 11:38:59 PM
The damage caused from that cannot be led to God's door.

It can be when he willingly gave special treatment to a group of people knowing that the outcome would be disastrous. Why is God exempt from blame?  ???

Primarily for one simple reason; He is God. WHATEVER he decides, for whatever reason, is just by definition, since he creates the definitions.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on November 01, 2014, 11:43:23 PM
The damage caused from that cannot be led to God's door.

It can be when he willingly gave special treatment to a group of people knowing that the outcome would be disastrous. Why is God exempt from blame?  ???

Primarily for one simple reason; He is God. WHATEVER he decides, for whatever reason, is just by definition, since he creates the definitions.


Yeah, he created everything. We know.

He also created favoritism. Then created death and war... which are usually considered bad things. Do you agree that God willingly created war?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 01, 2014, 11:49:24 PM
The damage caused from that cannot be led to God's door.

It can be when he willingly gave special treatment to a group of people knowing that the outcome would be disastrous. Why is God exempt from blame?  ???

Primarily for one simple reason; He is God. WHATEVER he decides, for whatever reason, is just by definition, since he creates the definitions.


Yeah, he created everything. We know.

He also created favoritism. Then created death and war... which are usually considered bad things. Do you agree that God willingly created war?

No, humans created those things. God's treatment of the Jews is not favourtism. It is the creation of a people to serve the world.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on November 01, 2014, 11:50:29 PM
He also created favoritism. Then created death and war... which are usually considered bad things. Do you agree that God willingly created war?

No, humans created those things. God's treatment of the Jews is not favourtism. It is the creation of a people to serve the world.

God created humans. God created those things by proxy.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 01, 2014, 11:52:38 PM
Must eat and walk dog. Be back later.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on November 01, 2014, 11:55:06 PM
Must eat and walk dog. Be back later.

How can you walk your dog after eating it?

Man, Jews are weird.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on November 02, 2014, 12:31:23 AM
Why are you ignoring God's path and living in the US instead of Israel?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on November 02, 2014, 01:01:31 AM
Of course he is. I expect he did know. But that does not change the fact that God had to choose a perfect nation to light the way for others. The damage caused from that cannot be led to God's door. "I shall bless those who bless thee, and curse those who curse thee."
They are doing a very poor job at it.  Also, why land that was already occupied?  Why not empty land?  Would have solved A lot of problems.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 02, 2014, 12:28:36 PM
He also created favoritism. Then created death and war... which are usually considered bad things. Do you agree that God willingly created war?

No, humans created those things. God's treatment of the Jews is not favourtism. It is the creation of a people to serve the world.

God created humans. God created those things by proxy.

I don't agree. God created humans, who disobeyed God, and then created those things.


Must eat and walk dog. Be back later.

How can you walk your dog after eating it?

Man, Jews are weird.

You are weird.


Why are you ignoring God's path and living in the US instead of Israel?


I have considered living in Israel. But the wife is a Lutheran. That makes it a bit difficult.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 02, 2014, 12:37:44 PM
Of course he is. I expect he did know. But that does not change the fact that God had to choose a perfect nation to light the way for others. The damage caused from that cannot be led to God's door. "I shall bless those who bless thee, and curse those who curse thee."
They are doing a very poor job at it.  Also, why land that was already occupied?  Why not empty land?  Would have solved A lot of problems.

I'd say we have done a pretty good job of bringing monotheism to the world, since Christianity and Islam are both here because of us. As far as land that was already occupied (by the Canaanites), that was so God could make an example out of people. I recommend reading the Torah before asking further questions on this. As far as modern Israel is concerned, the fact that modern Arabo-Canaanites who call themselves "Palestinians" happen to be there is not our fault. They must be removed, peacefully if possible, forcibly if necessary.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on November 02, 2014, 12:49:57 PM
Of course he is. I expect he did know. But that does not change the fact that God had to choose a perfect nation to light the way for others. The damage caused from that cannot be led to God's door. "I shall bless those who bless thee, and curse those who curse thee."
They are doing a very poor job at it.  Also, why land that was already occupied?  Why not empty land?  Would have solved A lot of problems.

I'd say we have done a pretty good job of bringing monotheism to the world, since Christianity and Islam are both here because of us.
Except God wanted JEWS to do it, not children of the jewish faith.  And really, Christianity is a sin to Jews isn't it?  Worshiping a false idol (Jesus)?  Also, the Roman Empire is basically the sole reason it's spread as far as it did.  So you really should be thanking the Romans for wiping out all the pesky druids, greeks, Vikings, and whatever other pagan religions were destroyed by them in their holy crusade.

And I really hope you aren't suggesting that Jews created Islam because that would make your hatred of it quite ironic since the two faiths are so very similar, aside from an updated rule book.

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As far as land that was already occupied (by the Canaanites), that was so God could make an example out of people.
This literally makes no sense.  From the perspective of everyone else (the people who would learn the lesson) it was no different than any other conquering army.  What lesson did the dead people learn?  And what lesson did the living people who heard about it learn?  That an army can take over land?  If God wanted to make an example out of people, he'd have wiped them out with his divine power. 

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I recommend reading the Torah before asking further questions on this. As far as modern Israel is concerned, the fact that modern Arabo-Canaanites who call themselves "Palestinians" happen to be there is not our fault. They must be removed, peacefully if possible, forcibly if necessary.
Yes it is.  The Jews failed in their Godly task to wipe out all Canaanites.  Had they succeeded, there would be no such thing as a "Arabo-Canaanite".
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Thork on November 02, 2014, 01:27:30 PM
Also, the Roman Empire is basically the sole reason it's spread as far as it did.  So you really should be thanking the Romans for wiping out all the pesky druids, greeks, Vikings, and whatever other pagan religions were destroyed by them in their holy crusade.
If all those people had been wiped out, Dave, I wouldn't be here. I'm not a greasy Italian.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 02, 2014, 01:30:54 PM
Of course he is. I expect he did know. But that does not change the fact that God had to choose a perfect nation to light the way for others. The damage caused from that cannot be led to God's door. "I shall bless those who bless thee, and curse those who curse thee."
They are doing a very poor job at it.  Also, why land that was already occupied?  Why not empty land?  Would have solved A lot of problems.

I'd say we have done a pretty good job of bringing monotheism to the world, since Christianity and Islam are both here because of us.
Quote
Except God wanted JEWS to do it, not children of the jewish faith.  And really, Christianity is a sin to Jews isn't it?  Worshiping a false idol (Jesus)?  Also, the Roman Empire is basically the sole reason it's spread as far as it did.  So you really should be thanking the Romans for wiping out all the pesky druids, greeks, Vikings, and whatever other pagan religions were destroyed by them in their holy crusade.

And I really hope you aren't suggesting that Jews created Islam because that would make your hatred of it quite ironic since the two faiths are so very similar, aside from an updated rule book.

Well, one would think that Christianity would be considered as such, but, oddly enough, it has been accorded (by most Jewish scholars) a place at the table of monotheisms. I'm not exactly sure why, but it has.

Regarding Islam, I don't hate its theology, which is essentially not much different than ours. I despise its tendency to want to blow shit up, and its sense of wanting to make the rest of the world second class citizens. Beyond that, however, I have no objection to it.

As far as Romans go, well, you are right at least to a point. Their military force did take Christianity further than it would otherwise have gone, just as Islam was carried by the sword further than it would otherwise have got.

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As far as land that was already occupied (by the Canaanites), that was so God could make an example out of people.
Quote
This literally makes no sense.  From the perspective of everyone else (the people who would learn the lesson) it was no different than any other conquering army.  What lesson did the dead people learn?  And what lesson did the living people who heard about it learn?  That an army can take over land?  If God wanted to make an example out of people, he'd have wiped them out with his divine power.

The neighbours of the Canaanites got to learn the power of the Jewish God over their own gods. And I think were advised that their own filthy practices must stop. Whether they heeded the advice, I don't know. 

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I recommend reading the Torah before asking further questions on this. As far as modern Israel is concerned, the fact that modern Arabo-Canaanites who call themselves "Palestinians" happen to be there is not our fault. They must be removed, peacefully if possible, forcibly if necessary.
Quote
Yes it is.  The Jews failed in their Godly task to wipe out all Canaanites.  Had they succeeded, there would be no such thing as a "Arabo-Canaanite".

Yes there would. They would just be pure Arabs in that case.


Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 02, 2014, 01:36:29 PM
Also, the Roman Empire is basically the sole reason it's spread as far as it did.  So you really should be thanking the Romans for wiping out all the pesky druids, greeks, Vikings, and whatever other pagan religions were destroyed by them in their holy crusade.
If all those people had been wiped out, Dave, I wouldn't be here. I'm not a greasy Italian.

Neither were the Romans. The rest of Italy was, though, especially the further south you got.  ;D ;D .. I mean, seriously, what good has Italy been for the world since Rome fell? Ok, they had nice art during the Renaissance, but beyond that... ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on November 02, 2014, 02:11:40 PM
Also, the Roman Empire is basically the sole reason it's spread as far as it did.  So you really should be thanking the Romans for wiping out all the pesky druids, greeks, Vikings, and whatever other pagan religions were destroyed by them in their holy crusade.
If all those people had been wiped out, Dave, I wouldn't be here. I'm not a greasy Italian.
You're not a Druid either.  The culture and religion was wiped out but not all the people.  Just the ones who fought back.


Of course he is. I expect he did know. But that does not change the fact that God had to choose a perfect nation to light the way for others. The damage caused from that cannot be led to God's door. "I shall bless those who bless thee, and curse those who curse thee."
They are doing a very poor job at it.  Also, why land that was already occupied?  Why not empty land?  Would have solved A lot of problems.

I'd say we have done a pretty good job of bringing monotheism to the world, since Christianity and Islam are both here because of us.
Except God wanted JEWS to do it, not children of the jewish faith.  And really, Christianity is a sin to Jews isn't it?  Worshiping a false idol (Jesus)?  Also, the Roman Empire is basically the sole reason it's spread as far as it did.  So you really should be thanking the Romans for wiping out all the pesky druids, greeks, Vikings, and whatever other pagan religions were destroyed by them in their holy crusade.

And I really hope you aren't suggesting that Jews created Islam because that would make your hatred of it quite ironic since the two faiths are so very similar, aside from an updated rule book.

Well, one would think that Christianity would be considered as such, but, oddly enough, it has been accorded (by most Jewish scholars) a place at the table of monotheisms. I'm not exactly sure why, but it has.

Regarding Islam, I don't hate its theology, which is essentially not much different than ours. I despise its tendency to want to blow shit up, and its sense of wanting to make the rest of the world second class citizens. Beyond that, however, I have no objection to it.
Ummm....  You have gone on record on this forum time and again of having claimed that Muslims were sub-human and their religion full of hatred and violence.  How can you say that and NOT hate the theology?  That's like hating blacks but liking the Black Panther's goals.

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As far as Romans go, well, you are right at least to a point. Their military force did take Christianity further than it would otherwise have gone, just as Islam was carried by the sword further than it would otherwise have got.
Which the Jews have totally failed to do.  Again, Jews did nothing to promote Monotheism.  At best you can claim they stumbled into a lie (Jesus is God), got rid of nearly all the rules of the Jews (only Noah laws now) and everyone loved it.  Well, those who weren't being tortured or converted anyway.

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As far as land that was already occupied (by the Canaanites), that was so God could make an example out of people.
This literally makes no sense.  From the perspective of everyone else (the people who would learn the lesson) it was no different than any other conquering army.  What lesson did the dead people learn?  And what lesson did the living people who heard about it learn?  That an army can take over land?  If God wanted to make an example out of people, he'd have wiped them out with his divine power.

The neighbours of the Canaanites got to learn the power of the Jewish God over their own gods. And I think were advised that their own filthy practices must stop. Whether they heeded the advice, I don't know. 
No it didn't.  They weren't being attacked so their gods didn't have to do anything.  The Jews did not attack them and thus there was no challenge between the Gods of their neighbors and the Jewish God.
And if you REALLY want to claim that it does, then you really need to explain how Hitler's God was more powerful than the Jewish God but less powerful than the American God.  Come to think of it, the Roman Gods too.  And the Egyptian Gods (It took a man to save the slaves).  You continue to paint the Jewish God as really weak.

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I recommend reading the Torah before asking further questions on this. As far as modern Israel is concerned, the fact that modern Arabo-Canaanites who call themselves "Palestinians" happen to be there is not our fault. They must be removed, peacefully if possible, forcibly if necessary.
Yes it is.  The Jews failed in their Godly task to wipe out all Canaanites.  Had they succeeded, there would be no such thing as a "Arabo-Canaanite".

Yes there would. They would just be pure Arabs in that case.

....
I don't think you understand what you just said.  You just said that Canaanites would exist if they had all been wiped out but they'd be called just Arabs.  So either Arabs and canaanites are the same thing or you really have no clue what you're talking about and you're just trying to argue against me to keep yourself from feeling like a schmuck.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on November 02, 2014, 02:14:10 PM
Why do you think God is more than just an invention of primitive minds to explain things they themselves could not explain?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on November 02, 2014, 08:00:02 PM
Why do you think God is more than just an invention of primitive minds to explain things they themselves could not explain?

Entrenched beliefs, little or no understanding of science/physics, the nice feeling it gives, cultural/societal pressure and group think, lack of critical thinking skills, religion as a tool for acceptance/belonging. The list goes on and on..
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 03, 2014, 12:47:48 PM
Also, the Roman Empire is basically the sole reason it's spread as far as it did.  So you really should be thanking the Romans for wiping out all the pesky druids, greeks, Vikings, and whatever other pagan religions were destroyed by them in their holy crusade.
If all those people had been wiped out, Dave, I wouldn't be here. I'm not a greasy Italian.
You're not a Druid either.  The culture and religion was wiped out but not all the people.  Just the ones who fought back.


Of course he is. I expect he did know. But that does not change the fact that God had to choose a perfect nation to light the way for others. The damage caused from that cannot be led to God's door. "I shall bless those who bless thee, and curse those who curse thee."
They are doing a very poor job at it.  Also, why land that was already occupied?  Why not empty land?  Would have solved A lot of problems.

I'd say we have done a pretty good job of bringing monotheism to the world, since Christianity and Islam are both here because of us.
Except God wanted JEWS to do it, not children of the jewish faith.  And really, Christianity is a sin to Jews isn't it?  Worshiping a false idol (Jesus)?  Also, the Roman Empire is basically the sole reason it's spread as far as it did.  So you really should be thanking the Romans for wiping out all the pesky druids, greeks, Vikings, and whatever other pagan religions were destroyed by them in their holy crusade.

And I really hope you aren't suggesting that Jews created Islam because that would make your hatred of it quite ironic since the two faiths are so very similar, aside from an updated rule book.

Well, one would think that Christianity would be considered as such, but, oddly enough, it has been accorded (by most Jewish scholars) a place at the table of monotheisms. I'm not exactly sure why, but it has.

Regarding Islam, I don't hate its theology, which is essentially not much different than ours. I despise its tendency to want to blow shit up, and its sense of wanting to make the rest of the world second class citizens. Beyond that, however, I have no objection to it.
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Ummm....  You have gone on record on this forum time and again of having claimed that Muslims were sub-human and their religion full of hatred and violence.  How can you say that and NOT hate the theology?  That's like hating blacks but liking the Black Panther's goals.

I repeat. It is their tendency to blow shit up, and treat others as second class that I despise.

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As far as Romans go, well, you are right at least to a point. Their military force did take Christianity further than it would otherwise have gone, just as Islam was carried by the sword further than it would otherwise have got.
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Which the Jews have totally failed to do.  Again, Jews did nothing to promote Monotheism.  At best you can claim they stumbled into a lie (Jesus is God), got rid of nearly all the rules of the Jews (only Noah laws now) and everyone loved it.  Well, those who weren't being tortured or converted anyway.

It depends on how you look at conversion of the world to monotheism. We do not, and have never, required the world, to think like us. Judaism is the religion of the Jew. The Christian and the Muslim and the Zoroastrian can have their monotheisms that are different than ours and yet pleasing to God in their own ways. I don't personally understand how worship of Jesus of can be acceptable, but our Rabbis have acknowledged that it can be, so therefore it can be. I'll figure that one out later.

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As far as land that was already occupied (by the Canaanites), that was so God could make an example out of people.
This literally makes no sense.  From the perspective of everyone else (the people who would learn the lesson) it was no different than any other conquering army.  What lesson did the dead people learn?  And what lesson did the living people who heard about it learn?  That an army can take over land?  If God wanted to make an example out of people, he'd have wiped them out with his divine power.

The neighbours of the Canaanites got to learn the power of the Jewish God over their own gods. And I think were advised that their own filthy practices must stop. Whether they heeded the advice, I don't know. 

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No it didn't.  They weren't being attacked so their gods didn't have to do anything.  The Jews did not attack them and thus there was no challenge between the Gods of their neighbors and the Jewish God.
And if you REALLY want to claim that it does, then you really need to explain how Hitler's God was more powerful than the Jewish God but less powerful than the American God.  Come to think of it, the Roman Gods too.  And the Egyptian Gods (It took a man to save the slaves).  You continue to paint the Jewish God as really weak.

Well, since Hitler failed to kill all the Jews, and ended up shooting himself... And since the Roman Gods ended up submitting to Christianity... and since the Egyptian Gods ended up submitting the Hebrew God...

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Quote
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I recommend reading the Torah before asking further questions on this. As far as modern Israel is concerned, the fact that modern Arabo-Canaanites who call themselves "Palestinians" happen to be there is not our fault. They must be removed, peacefully if possible, forcibly if necessary.
Yes it is.  The Jews failed in their Godly task to wipe out all Canaanites.  Had they succeeded, there would be no such thing as a "Arabo-Canaanite".

Yes there would. They would just be pure Arabs in that case.

....
I don't think you understand what you just said.  You just said that Canaanites would exist if they had all been wiped out but they'd be called just Arabs.  So either Arabs and canaanites are the same thing or you really have no clue what you're talking about and you're just trying to argue against me to keep yourself from feeling like a schmuck.

No, Arabs and Canaanites are NOT the same thing. "Palestinians" are a mixture of both.  If the Canaanites had ALL been wiped out, modern "Palestinians" would have been descended from only Arabs.


Why do you think God is more than just an invention of primitive minds to explain things they themselves could not explain?

Entrenched beliefs, little or no understanding of science/physics, the nice feeling it gives, cultural/societal pressure and group think, lack of critical thinking skills, religion as a tool for acceptance/belonging. The list goes on and on..

Another stupid response by an atheist who doesn't know what he is talking about. Given that most of the early scientists were clergy, that was just a stupid remark. You have no ability to judge the critical thinking skills of anyone outside yourself, so that was a remark you cannot back up. Throw in the fact that religious belief often gives one a negative feeling, when one feels that one has pissed off the deity in some way, rendering your third point simply false...

You're batting a thousand today, Brilliance. Keep it up...
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on November 03, 2014, 06:50:40 PM
Early scientists had little to no understanding of science hence them being early in the timeline. They understood all the science available but they did not know what they did not know you know?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on November 03, 2014, 07:11:42 PM
Most early scientists were clergy because early church members were so devout that they believed the Bible to be the penultimate truth. What can science possibly do to damage the truth? It wasn't until recently that religion became fundamentally anti-science because scientists began uncovering a truth that opposes their religion.



Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 03, 2014, 07:48:57 PM
Early scientists had little to no understanding of science hence them being early in the timeline. They understood all the science available but they did not know what they did not know you know?


Most early scientists were clergy because early church members were so devout that they believed the Bible to be the penultimate truth. What can science possibly do to damage the truth? It wasn't until recently that religion became fundamentally anti-science because scientists began uncovering a truth that opposes their religion.

Fundamentally, of course, it doesn't. The Bible, read properly, doesn't oppose scientific endeavour. What it comes down to is this: if the Bible seems to contradict human wisdom, then one of two things is wrong. These two things are as follows, to whit:

1. Human wisdom, which is fallible at all times, and often needs correction. Look at this website, for example. The advocates of said site believe, against all scientific proof, that the Earth is flat. Either they are wrong (I think so), or the rest of the world is wrong.

2. Our understanding of the Bible may be wrong also. If this is the case, then it is our duty to make our understanding of the Bible correct. I think this has OFTEN been the case throughout history. To whit, our recent little discussion of homosexuality. No one disputes that that both Jewish and Christian authorities forbade sex outside of marriage (which is appropriate from my reading of Scripture). They also forbade homosexual marriage (which I think perhaps is INAPPROPRIATE from my reading of Scripture). Naturally, this had the affect of forbidding homosexual sex entirely. Since this appears to have come from a misunderstanding of Hebrew Scripture... well, you see where I am going with this.

The same can be said of other things in the Bible, and not just of social issues, but of matters touching on the scientific. Although the Bible is far from a science book, and makes no claim to be such, it does touch on the subject when discussing the Creation of the world. How could it not?

Now, I am no scientist, but it is my personal belief that when the Bible is interpreted correctly, and when science likewise is interpreted correctly, there can be no conflict between the two. Take your own positions. Neither they, nor you, are my problem.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on November 03, 2014, 07:55:20 PM
Now, I am no scientist, but it is my personal belief that when the Bible is interpreted correctly, and when science likewise is interpreted correctly, there can be no conflict between the two. Take your own positions. Neither they, nor you, are my problem.

So you're basically saying that the following accepted scientific theories are wrong: evolution, the big bang, the age of the Earth, etc.

Instead you choose to believe what is written in the bible. If this is true then you must believe in the following things:
- The firmament (a roof above the Earth which is obviously not there, Genesis)
- The moon is luminous and its own light source (Genesis)
- The Earth was created before the Sun (which contradicts the nebular hypothesis of stellar formation, also Genesis)

There are many others, but you see the point.
Please back up the following three points with evidence that is not "the bible".
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on November 03, 2014, 07:59:17 PM
Now, I am no scientist, but it is my personal belief that when the Bible is interpreted correctly, and when science likewise is interpreted correctly, there can be no conflict between the two. Take your own positions. Neither they, nor you, are my problem.

Ridiculous. The ancient zealots that wrote your book had no grasp of even the most basic modern scientific theories, so you can't expect them to to write something even remotely accurate, no matter how it's interpreted. Science is not 'interpreted' in the same sense your mystical book is. The fact that you can interpret something like that makes your entire belief system dubious.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 03, 2014, 08:11:05 PM
Now, I am no scientist, but it is my personal belief that when the Bible is interpreted correctly, and when science likewise is interpreted correctly, there can be no conflict between the two. Take your own positions. Neither they, nor you, are my problem.

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So you're basically saying that the following accepted scientific theories are wrong: evolution, the big bang, the age of the Earth, etc.

No, I am actually inclined to accept all of them.

Quote
Instead you choose to belive (sic) what is written in the bible. If this is true then you must believe in the following things:
- The firmament (a roof above the Earth which is obviously not there, Genesis)

God made the waters and divided the waters from the waters, ie, he made the sky. Just because Moses called it a roof doesn't it mean it was a roof in the literal sense. I see no problem with simply acknowledging that it is the roof in the sense that it is above us. I am hardly going to limit myself to a primitive Hebrew (and general Mesopotamian) understanding of the cosmos, any more than I am to an atheist one.

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- The moon is luminous and it's own light source (Genesis)

Actually, I see no reason why the moon has to be is own light source. The Bible merely said that God created two great lights. He did NOT say how they were to be lit.

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- The Earth was created before the Sun (which contradicts the nebular hypothesis of stellar formation, also Genesis)

This point gets interesting. It requires more study.

Quote
There are many others, but you see the point.
Please back up the following three points with evidence that is not "the bible".



Now, I am no scientist, but it is my personal belief that when the Bible is interpreted correctly, and when science likewise is interpreted correctly, there can be no conflict between the two. Take your own positions. Neither they, nor you, are my problem.

Ridiculous. The ancient zealots that wrote your book had no grasp of even the most basic modern scientific theories, so you can't expect them to to write something even remotely accurate, no matter how it's interpreted. Science is not 'interpreted' in the same sense your mystical book is. The fact that you can interpret something like that makes your entire belief system dubious.


And the fact that your zealots invent words like 'meme' (an invention of Richard Dawkins, and even defined by him) put them in the same class of mystical as our zealots. The big difference is that ours actually look at the world beyond themselves and see the world for what it is, namely, the creation of something bigger than they are. Your zealots think they are the master of all they survey, and that nothing can possibly be greater than them. Who is the pompous one?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on November 03, 2014, 08:24:39 PM
And the fact that your zealots invent words like 'meme' (an invention of Richard Dawkins, and even defined by him) put them in the same class of mystical as our zealots. The big difference is that ours actually look at the world beyond themselves and see the world for what it is, namely, the creation of something bigger than they are. Your zealots think they are the master of all they survey, and that nothing can possibly be greater than them. Who is the pompous one?

Please provide evidence for the Firmament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmament).

If the Bible is correct about everything written within it, then surely this must be true and surely there must be evidence proving its existence. Please provide this evidence, then we will discuss the next topic.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 03, 2014, 08:31:22 PM
And the fact that your zealots invent words like 'meme' (an invention of Richard Dawkins, and even defined by him) put them in the same class of mystical as our zealots. The big difference is that ours actually look at the world beyond themselves and see the world for what it is, namely, the creation of something bigger than they are. Your zealots think they are the master of all they survey, and that nothing can possibly be greater than them. Who is the pompous one?

Please provide evidence for the Firmament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmament).

If the Bible is correct about everything written within it, then surely this must be true and surely there must be evidence proving its existence. Please provide this evidence, then we will discuss the next topic.

Don't be dense. I said in your past retardedness concerning the firmament that there was no literal roof in the sky. That is a common viewpoint among ancient Hebrew/Mesopotamian concepts of the universe. The message being conveyed there was that God created the waters, and then separated the waters from the waters. He called the separation between the two "Sky". Moses called it a firmament because that was the limit of his landbound interpretive capabilities. Had he been a pilot, he'd have known differently, now wouldn't he have? He didn't need to know otherwise, so he called it a roof. I have no problem looking at the sky at thinking of it as a roof in the non-literal sense. You get too high, you leave the atmosphere. The atmosphere IS a roof that keeps the oxygen in, and the vacuum of space out. End of problem.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on November 03, 2014, 08:39:54 PM
And the fact that your zealots invent words like 'meme' (an invention of Richard Dawkins, and even defined by him) put them in the same class of mystical as our zealots. The big difference is that ours actually look at the world beyond themselves and see the world for what it is, namely, the creation of something bigger than they are. Your zealots think they are the master of all they survey, and that nothing can possibly be greater than them. Who is the pompous one?

Please provide evidence for the Firmament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmament).

If the Bible is correct about everything written within it, then surely this must be true and surely there must be evidence proving its existence. Please provide this evidence, then we will discuss the next topic.

Don't be dense. I said in your past retardedness concerning the firmament that there was no literal roof in the sky. That is a common viewpoint among ancient Hebrew/Mesopotamian concepts of the universe. The message being conveyed there was that God created the waters, and then separated the waters from the waters. He called the separation between the two "Sky". Moses called it a firmament because that was the limit of his landbound interpretive capabilities. Had he been a pilot, he'd have known differently, now wouldn't he have? He didn't need to know otherwise, so he called it a roof. I have no problem looking at the sky at thinking of it as a roof in the non-literal sense. You get too high, you leave the atmosphere. The atmosphere IS a roof that keeps the oxygen in, and the vacuum of space out. End of problem.

So you're basically saying the Bible's wrong and that Moses was a fucking idiot? Ok.

"The firmament was a great solid dome which, according to the pseudepedigraphic 2nd or 3rd century book of 3 Baruch, might be pierced by tower and gimlet."

They seem pretty dead set on making it seem like a solid dome. But you're saying it's just the atmosphere. You are saying they're wrong, right?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 03, 2014, 08:49:01 PM
And the fact that your zealots invent words like 'meme' (an invention of Richard Dawkins, and even defined by him) put them in the same class of mystical as our zealots. The big difference is that ours actually look at the world beyond themselves and see the world for what it is, namely, the creation of something bigger than they are. Your zealots think they are the master of all they survey, and that nothing can possibly be greater than them. Who is the pompous one?

Please provide evidence for the Firmament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmament).

If the Bible is correct about everything written within it, then surely this must be true and surely there must be evidence proving its existence. Please provide this evidence, then we will discuss the next topic.

Don't be dense. I said in your past retardedness concerning the firmament that there was no literal roof in the sky. That is a common viewpoint among ancient Hebrew/Mesopotamian concepts of the universe. The message being conveyed there was that God created the waters, and then separated the waters from the waters. He called the separation between the two "Sky". Moses called it a firmament because that was the limit of his landbound interpretive capabilities. Had he been a pilot, he'd have known differently, now wouldn't he have? He didn't need to know otherwise, so he called it a roof. I have no problem looking at the sky at thinking of it as a roof in the non-literal sense. You get too high, you leave the atmosphere. The atmosphere IS a roof that keeps the oxygen in, and the vacuum of space out. End of problem.

So you're basically saying the Bible's wrong and that Moses was a fucking idiot? Ok.

"The firmament was a great solid dome which, according to the pseudepedigraphic 2nd or 3rd century book of 3 Baruch, might be pierced by tower and gimlet."

They seem pretty dead set on making it seem like a solid dome. But you're saying it's just the atmosphere. You are saying they're wrong, right?

2 and 3 Baruch are not in the Bible. And no, I am not saying Moses was an idiot, although you are. Moses called it a firmament because that is what it was. It may not have been hard, which you'll notice, he never said it was, but it was still a firmament. It was a separation between the waters and the waters.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on November 03, 2014, 08:53:19 PM
2 and 3 Baruch are not in the Bible. And no, I am not saying Moses was an idiot, although you are. Moses called it a firmament because that is what it was. It may not have been hard, which you'll notice, he never said it was, but it was still a firmament. It was a separation between the waters and the waters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmament

The firmament is, by definition, a hard thing. It is like me saying "hey look, an airplane" and then following it up with "I said it was an airplane, but I never said it had wings!" It is quite amusing though, watching you play mental gymnastics again.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on November 03, 2014, 09:38:42 PM
And the fact that your zealots invent words like 'meme' (an invention of Richard Dawkins, and even defined by him) put them in the same class of mystical as our zealots. The big difference is that ours actually look at the world beyond themselves and see the world for what it is, namely, the creation of something bigger than they are. Your zealots think they are the master of all they survey, and that nothing can possibly be greater than them. Who is the pompous one?

For someone who loves bringing up Dawkins, you're pretty shit when it comes to understanding his position. You'd be hard pressed to find a single atheist/agnostic that thinks they're the master of the Universe and they have all the answers. That's a view inherent in many religious philosophies, so it's humorous to see you project it on to those opposed to such things.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on November 03, 2014, 09:45:19 PM
"It's firmament but it's not a firmament"


I understand your denial. We'll move on to the next topic. Does the Moon produce its own light?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Thork on November 03, 2014, 09:56:08 PM
Does the Moon produce its own light?
No. The tiny creatures on it do and they bloom across its surface in crescent shaped waves.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 04, 2014, 01:43:10 AM
And the fact that your zealots invent words like 'meme' (an invention of Richard Dawkins, and even defined by him) put them in the same class of mystical as our zealots. The big difference is that ours actually look at the world beyond themselves and see the world for what it is, namely, the creation of something bigger than they are. Your zealots think they are the master of all they survey, and that nothing can possibly be greater than them. Who is the pompous one?

For someone who loves bringing up Dawkins, you're pretty shit when it comes to understanding his position. You'd be hard pressed to find a single atheist/agnostic that thinks they're the master of the Universe and they have all the answers. That's a view inherent in many religious philosophies, so it's humorous to see you project it on to those opposed to such things.

The man invented a word and even a definition for it! If that isn't arrogance, what is? I mean, seriously, how does some asshole actually try to come up with a new word in the language to justify his perverted philosophy? And every atheist in this room has proven to me that they do indeed consider themselves the greatest thing since peanut butter and sliced fucking bread. I have never seen more stuck up, pompous, arrogant people in my life.

I shan't deny that some religious people resemble them. But its a pale resemblance at best. I guess that's why the State Atheists, like China, the USSR, Albania, Cambodia, and every other regime that tried it ended up killing so many millions of people. Just China and the USSR alone managed a good 70 million people, and that is an estimate. It was probably higher than that. Although religion and religious people have been  responsible for a lot of intolerance, it pales in comparison to that kind of vicious brutality. In the 20th Century alone, more people died in outright government sponsored brutality than any other century. And the current century appears to coming along similarly. And most of that government sponsored brutality was at the hands of the so-called "Communist" regimes, which weren't in any way really Communist, but they were surely Atheist, both officially and in practice.

So, continue you on your way. Keep telling yourselves the lies you need to in order to sleep at night. I've got no problem with that, honestly. Go right ahead.


"It's firmament but it's not a firmament"


I understand your denial. We'll move on to the next topic. Does the Moon produce its own light?


A stupid question. The Bible never said the Moon produced light.  God, you are batting a thousand for being obtuse, aren't you?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on November 04, 2014, 01:46:12 AM
A stupid question. The Bible never said the Moon produced light.  God, you are batting a thousand for being obtuse, aren't you?




"Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound." Isaiah 30:26



Please pay attention, Jaakov. This seems to imply that the moon produces its own light similar to how the sun produces light. Now this is just flat out wrong, as the Moon is a natural satellite and the Sun is a fucking star.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 04, 2014, 01:58:49 AM
A stupid question. The Bible never said the Moon produced light.  God, you are batting a thousand for being obtuse, aren't you?




"Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound." Isaiah 30:26



Please pay attention, Jaakov. This seems to imply that the moon produces its own light similar to how the sun produces light. Now this is just flat out wrong, as the Moon is a natural satellite and the Sun is a fucking star.

That verse in no way insinuates that the Moon produces her own light. It simply indicates that in some manner, the Moon shall shine as brightly as the Sun does. Your point?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on November 04, 2014, 02:01:43 AM
A stupid question. The Bible never said the Moon produced light.  God, you are batting a thousand for being obtuse, aren't you?




"Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound." Isaiah 30:26



Please pay attention, Jaakov. This seems to imply that the moon produces its own light similar to how the sun produces light. Now this is just flat out wrong, as the Moon is a natural satellite and the Sun is a fucking star.

That verse in no way insinuates that the Moon produces her own light. It simply indicates that in some manner, the Moon shall shine as brightly as the Sun does. Your point?

It clearly insinuates that the Moon produces its own light. What are you smoking?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 04, 2014, 02:02:43 AM
How does it insinuate that? You are the fucking obtuse one here, not me.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on November 04, 2014, 02:06:40 AM
How does it insinuate that? You are the fucking obtuse one here, not me.

Do you need to reread the post? Because if so: do that. I don't care about your dodgy interpretation. It seems like it's insinuating that it produces its own light. How could the bible be so wrong about this?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on November 04, 2014, 02:08:50 AM
I don't see the implication. The light of the moon really is as the light of the sun.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 04, 2014, 02:18:16 AM
Does the Moon produce its own light?
No. The tiny creatures on it do and they bloom across its surface in crescent shaped waves.


How does it insinuate that? You are the fucking obtuse one here, not me.

Do you need to reread the post? Because if so: do that. I don't care about your dodgy interpretation. It seems like it's insinuating that it produces its own light. How could the bible be so wrong about this?

Now, I have seen some strange shit in my day, but THORK, you take the taco, man. I mean, seriously, Dude. What are YOU smoking, is the question that needs to be asked.

VAUX,It seems like? It only seems like? You are basing an entire argument on a statement as weak as that? Dude, even assuming I agreed with you, and I don't, one doesn't attempt to make a logical argument based on "it seems like". That is just a whole new class of stupid.

Remember, the Rabbis answered all these questions long before you were even thought of, or your father, or your father's father, or your father's father's father, or... well, you see where I am going with this. I don't ultimately give a shit and a half what you think about the matter because your lack of wisdom can never compare to the 4500 years of thought that has gone into the Bible, the Talmud, the Ethics of the Fathers, and all the other literature that has been around since about forever was. So, if you are trying to change my opinion, you should stop bothering. All you are doing is making me think you are an idiot. I would encourage you to pick up a book, perhaps your first volume of Talmud, and start reading, which is what I intend to do right now. So, go enlighten yourself by reading something other than Dawkins et al. Enjoy.

THANK YOU PP! One person here does indeed have a brain.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on November 04, 2014, 02:21:14 AM
And the fact that your zealots invent words like 'meme' (an invention of Richard Dawkins, and even defined by him) put them in the same class of mystical as our zealots. The big difference is that ours actually look at the world beyond themselves and see the world for what it is, namely, the creation of something bigger than they are. Your zealots think they are the master of all they survey, and that nothing can possibly be greater than them. Who is the pompous one?

For someone who loves bringing up Dawkins, you're pretty shit when it comes to understanding his position. You'd be hard pressed to find a single atheist/agnostic that thinks they're the master of the Universe and they have all the answers. That's a view inherent in many religious philosophies, so it's humorous to see you project it on to those opposed to such things.

The man invented a word and even a definition for it! If that isn't arrogance, what is? I mean, seriously, how does some asshole actually try to come up with a new word in the language to justify his perverted philosophy? And every atheist in this room has proven to me that they do indeed consider themselves the greatest thing since peanut butter and sliced fucking bread. I have never seen more stuck up, pompous, arrogant people in my life.

I shan't deny that some religious people resemble them. But its a pale resemblance at best. I guess that's why the State Atheists, like China, the USSR, Albania, Cambodia, and every other regime that tried it ended up killing so many millions of people. Just China and the USSR alone managed a good 70 million people, and that is an estimate. It was probably higher than that. Although religion and religious people have been  responsible for a lot of intolerance, it pales in comparison to that kind of vicious brutality. In the 20th Century alone, more people died in outright government sponsored brutality than any other century. And the current century appears to coming along similarly. And most of that government sponsored brutality was at the hands of the so-called "Communist" regimes, which weren't in any way really Communist, but they were surely Atheist, both officially and in practice.

So, continue you on your way. Keep telling yourselves the lies you need to in order to sleep at night. I've got no problem with that, honestly. Go right ahead.



This just in, every person that invents a word is literally Hitler. You realise that 'meme' has a different usage on the internet that Dawkins never intended?

I'm also really tired of seeing Communist states mentioned whenever atheism comes up. Those people weren't killed because of atheism, because atheism is not a belief system. How many died under Nazism? Because Hitler used christian rhetoric to justify some of his behaviour. The crusades as well, religious wars justified through religion. Your buddies in Israel, how many wars have they fought over the last 60 years? Countless.

Many more people have died due to religious wars than because of atheism. I challenge you to find a case of an atheist killing someone because they're religious. It hasn't happened because there isn't some atheist fantasy book that tells you who you should kill, such as the Bible, Koran and Torah.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on November 04, 2014, 03:45:46 AM
Yonah, I'm a little hard pressed finding any evidence that atheists want to murder people and think they're better than everyone else. Could you mind giving me some sort of, you know, atheist bible that clears up all the atheist rules for me? Thanks. I want to make sure I'm being an orthodox atheist.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: garygreen on November 04, 2014, 04:55:10 AM
It's almost as if every nation has at some point done a bunch of fucked up stuff, so any subdivision of nations is going to contain nothing but nations that have done a bunch of fucked up stuff.  Weird.

Also, I have a rock that keeps tigers away.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: mathsman on November 04, 2014, 09:01:27 AM
The man invented a word and even a definition for it! If that isn't arrogance, what is? I mean, seriously, how does some asshole actually try to come up with a new word in the language to justify his perverted philosophy? And every atheist in this room has proven to me that they do indeed consider themselves the greatest thing since peanut butter and sliced fucking bread. I have never seen more stuck up, pompous, arrogant people in my life.

Lewis Carroll invented the word 'chortle'. Is he an arsehole? The 20 volume Oxford English Dictionary has entries for 171,476 words; did these words spring in to existence in one natural explosion of language or were they coined, one after the other, by succeeding generations of writers, readers and speakers?

To label Dawkins an arsehole is one person's opinion; to present as evidence for his arseholeness ( I may have just invented this word) the fact that he invented a word is just silly. For one who prides himself on the quality of his thinking you've scored an own goal.

Just look at this:

http://www.shakespeare-online.com/biography/wordsinvented.html (http://www.shakespeare-online.com/biography/wordsinvented.html)

Shakespeare, the ultimate arsehole.

Edited for link after Beardo's excellent post.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on November 04, 2014, 10:13:45 AM
Every word were invented by someone.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 04, 2014, 12:42:21 PM
The man invented a word and even a definition for it! If that isn't arrogance, what is? I mean, seriously, how does some asshole actually try to come up with a new word in the language to justify his perverted philosophy? And every atheist in this room has proven to me that they do indeed consider themselves the greatest thing since peanut butter and sliced fucking bread. I have never seen more stuck up, pompous, arrogant people in my life.

Lewis Carroll invented the word 'chortle'. Is he an arsehole? The 20 volume Oxford English Dictionary has entries for 171,476 words; did these words spring in to existence in one natural explosion of language or were they coined, one after the other, by succeeding generations of writers, readers and speakers?

To label Dawkins an arsehole is one person's opinion; to present as evidence for his arseholeness ( I may have just invented this word) the fact that he invented a word is just silly. For one who prides himself on the quality of his thinking you've scored an own goal.

Just look at this:

http://www.shakespeare-online.com/biography/wordsinvented.html (http://www.shakespeare-online.com/biography/wordsinvented.html)

Shakespeare, the ultimate arsehole.

Edited for link after Beardo's excellent post.


I am well aware that Shakespeare invented about half (yes, half) the language we speak. But for Dawkins to do it, particularly to define something which he has no proof exists, makes him look as stupid as he perceives religious people to be, since they supposedly commit that same error, according to him. Have you read what he means by the word "meme"?

"An element of a culture or system of behaviour that may be considered to be passed from one individual to another by nongenetic means, esp. imitation.

<origin> 1970s: from Greek mimema 'that which is imitated', on the pattern of gene."

Source: New Oxford American Dictionary

At least with Shakespeare, he wasn't coming up with ideas that didn't actually exist.

So, what's the God meme that Dawkins talks about in the "God Delusion"? How do people imitate it? Or how does it get imitated? How does it reproduce itself?  See? You can't even use the word intelligently in English, and yet, some sorry dumb bastard has actually accepted it into the language. Well, I guess that is what happens when you have a language that isn't governed by an Academy, unlike most languages, which are.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Snupes on November 04, 2014, 12:47:11 PM
What? You think the idea of something being passed on to another person/culture is ridiculous?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 04, 2014, 12:57:58 PM
Quote
This just in, every person that invents a word is literally Hitler. You realise that 'meme' has a different usage on the internet that Dawkins never intended?

I'm also really tired of seeing Communist states mentioned whenever atheism comes up. Those people weren't killed because of atheism, because atheism is not a belief system. How many died under Nazism? Because Hitler used christian rhetoric to justify some of his behaviour. The crusades as well, religious wars justified through religion. Your buddies in Israel, how many wars have they fought over the last 60 years? Countless.

Many more people have died due to religious wars than because of atheism. I challenge you to find a case of an atheist killing someone because they're religious. It hasn't happened because there isn't some atheist fantasy book that tells you who you should kill, such as the Bible, Koran and Torah.

You are so full of shit its amazing. Go to Albania, which was officially declared a completely Atheist State in 1967, and EVERY house of worship was closed, and anyone who owned any religious material could be given extremely long prison sentences, and anyone who spoke of it in public was shot. Even the USSR never went quite that far.

Your challenge is easily defeated. The State Atheists made it policy that religious people, starting with the clergy, were to be killed outright, or otherwise dealt with such that they would be removed as a threat to the State. In China, and in North Korea, worship of the Leader (especially in North Korea where it is still going on) has replaced traditional religions, and practice of those religions has become difficult if not impossible.

God, if you had a brain you would seriously be a danger to yourself. Go read some history, and then come back and maybe we can have a conversation. MAYBE.


What? You think the idea of something being passed on to another person/culture is ridiculous?

Not at all. But you have to prove that it can be. Explain how that works for the "God meme". If God does not exist, then how do ideas of him continue to resonate through the collective consciousness?  Wouldn't it be like a "married bachelor", an illogical idea in and of itself?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on November 04, 2014, 01:00:15 PM
So the oral history of the Jews does not exist. Got it.

This meme idea is extremely simple and self-evident. The God meme is passed on by a culture participating in and propagating the idea throug story-telling, worship, rituals, holidays, etc.... Why are you struggling Yaakov?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: mathsman on November 04, 2014, 01:00:24 PM
I am well aware that Shakespeare invented about half (yes, half) the language we speak. But for Dawkins to do it, particularly to define something which he has no proof exists, makes him look as stupid as he perceives religious people to be, since they supposedly commit that same error, according to him. Have you read what he means by the word "meme"?

"An element of a culture or system of behaviour that may be considered to be passed from one individual to another by nongenetic means, esp. imitation.

<origin> 1970s: from Greek mimema 'that which is imitated', on the pattern of gene."

Source: New Oxford American Dictionary

At least with Shakespeare, he wasn't coming up with ideas that didn't actually exist.

So, what's the God meme that Dawkins talks about in the "God Delusion"? How do people imitate it? Or how does it get imitated? How does it reproduce itself?  See? You can't even use the word intelligently in English, and yet, some sorry dumb bastard has actually accepted it into the language. Well, I guess that is what happens when you have a language that isn't governed by an Academy, unlike most languages, which are.

Simple arithmetic suggests Shakespeare did not invent half of the words we have today: I'll use the 171,476 words defined in the Oxford English Dictionary and compare that figure with the 31,534 different words Shakespeare used. Could it be you've heard that Shakespeare invented half the words we use today and have passed on that idea to others? An example of a meme perhaps?

The very fact that meme is defined in reputable dictionaries suggests that it is now part of the language. Words aren't placed in dictionaries by sorry dumb bastards but by lexicographers whose expertise in language certainly exceeds mine so I will bow to their superior knowledge.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 04, 2014, 01:05:48 PM
I should have said, half of the words we use in common speech. As for the word "meme' now appearing in dictionaries, so does the word "ain't". And remember, ours is a society that bows to political pressure faster than just about any other. God forbid we piss off the atheist.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 04, 2014, 01:13:44 PM
So the oral history of the Jews does not exist. Got it.

This meme idea is extremely simple and self-evident. The God meme is passed on by a culture participating in and propagating the idea throug story-telling, worship, rituals, holidays, etc.... Why are you struggling Yaakov?

If God does not exist, then the idea of God cannot be passed down in the culture, since the idea is inherantly illogical, like the idea "married bachelor". Either God exists or he doesn't. Story telling is one thing. But God, the ultimate power in the universe, either exists as a logical thought, or he does not. If he does not, then that illogical thought cannot be propagated. Since it can be, he must exist. A variation on the Ontological Argument. But true nonetheless.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: mathsman on November 04, 2014, 01:20:56 PM
I should have said, half of the words we use in common speech. As for the word "meme' now appearing in dictionaries, so does the word "ain't". And remember, ours is a society that bows to political pressure faster than just about any other. God forbid we piss off the atheist.

Ain't should appear in dictionaries: it is a proper English word. It has a spelling and a definition.
I don't understand the pertinence of your comment about society to the inclusion or exclusion of words in dictionaries; I always thought it was down to the use and occurrences of the words. This link seems to back up my assertion:

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/words/how-do-you-decide-whether-a-new-word-should-be-included-in-an-oxford-dictionary (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/words/how-do-you-decide-whether-a-new-word-should-be-included-in-an-oxford-dictionary)

Shakespeare invented approximately 1700 words. Given that some of them may now have fallen by the wayside, are you saying that common speech has a lexicon of just 3400 words?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 04, 2014, 01:34:02 PM
Yes, actually. The average American, at least, reads at no higher than the Eighth Grade level. The average newspaper here is written at that level, with the New York Times doing a bit better at the 12th Grade level. Having been a Professor before, I know this shit.

And if you look at the language called Basic English, they manage to reduce the vocabulary to 800 words.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on November 04, 2014, 01:49:55 PM
If God does not exist, then the idea of God cannot be passed down in the culture
If the Hindu Gods don't exist, then the idea of the Hindu Gods cannot be passed down in the culture

Wait, they are.. So the Hindu Gods exists?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: mathsman on November 04, 2014, 01:57:20 PM
Yes, actually. The average American, at least, reads at no higher than the Eighth Grade level. The average newspaper here is written at that level, with the New York Times doing a bit better at the 12th Grade level. Having been a Professor before, I know this shit.

And if you look at the language called Basic English, they manage to reduce the vocabulary to 800 words.

Professor David Crystal, author of amongst others, The Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language, has this to say about estimating the average size of a person's vocabulary.

An easier question to answer, he maintains, is the size of the average person's vocabulary.

He suggests taking a sample of about 20 or 30 pages from a medium-sized dictionary, one which contains about 100,000 entries or 1,000 to 1,500 pages.

Tick off the ones you know and count them. Then multiply that by the number of pages and you will discover how many words you know. Most people vastly underestimate their total.
 
"Most people know half the words - about 50,000 - easily. A reasonably educated person about 75,000 and a really cool, smart person well, maybe all of them but that is rather unusual.

"An ordinary person, one who has not been to university say, would know about 35,000 quite easily."

Professor Crystal knows his shit as well and his shit seems to be different from yours. The question is who should I believe?

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: jroa on November 04, 2014, 02:02:19 PM
You are so full of shit its amazing. Go to Albania, which was officially declared a completely Atheist State in 1967, and EVERY house of worship was closed, and anyone who owned any religious material could be given extremely long prison sentences, and anyone who spoke of it in public was shot. Even the USSR never went quite that far.
I was stationed in Albania for a time, while NATO construction workers were building a highway to Kosovo.  Yes, the women are very ugly, but the people are very nice.

In case you did not realise this, there are machinegun pill boxes littered all around the country.  This was done when their paranoid leadership thought the US was going to attack at anytime. 

Now, those pillboxes remain unmanned.  There are just ugly women and gangsters everywhere, or at least that was the case 15 years ago.  So, what is your point? 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on November 04, 2014, 02:05:45 PM
Yonah, I'm a little hard pressed finding any evidence that atheists want to murder people and think they're better than everyone else. Could you mind giving me some sort of, you know, atheist bible that clears up all the atheist rules for me? Thanks. I want to make sure I'm being an orthodox atheist.

Yonah, I still can't find any rulebooks for atheism. Can you please help?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on November 04, 2014, 02:34:24 PM
So the oral history of the Jews does not exist. Got it.

This meme idea is extremely simple and self-evident. The God meme is passed on by a culture participating in and propagating the idea throug story-telling, worship, rituals, holidays, etc.... Why are you struggling Yaakov?

If God does not exist, then the idea of God cannot be passed down in the culture, since the idea is inherantly illogical, like the idea "married bachelor". Either God exists or he doesn't. Story telling is one thing. But God, the ultimate power in the universe, either exists as a logical thought, or he does not. If he does not, then that illogical thought cannot be propagated. Since it can be, he must exist. A variation on the Ontological Argument. But true nonetheless.

So an idea of something cannot exist unless the thing actually exists?  Is this your position?

If so, can you please tell me how I can get to Santa's workshop, where do I find the Easter Bunny's hole and how can I get that damn boogie man to stop bothering my son?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: mathsman on November 04, 2014, 02:41:19 PM
and how can I get that damn boogie man to stop bothering my son?

First, check the wardrobe.
Second, check under the bed.
Third, set a trap with milk and biscuits.
Fourth, whilst he is gorging on the milk and biscuits, beat the whatsit out of him with a baseball or cricket bat depending on your sporting disposition.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on November 04, 2014, 02:43:00 PM
The treatment of religion in the communist countries sounds more like a problem with communism than atheism.  America is an atheist country, it has no official religion, but it allows people to believe and practice how they want, within legal confines of course. 

Are you allowed to wear clothing made of mixed material?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 04, 2014, 04:01:16 PM
If God does not exist, then the idea of God cannot be passed down in the culture
If the Hindu Gods don't exist, then the idea of the Hindu Gods cannot be passed down in the culture

Wait, they are.. So the Hindu Gods exists?

The Argument from Ontology only works with a monotheistic Deity. Are you so dense that you have never read that argument? Go back a way in the thread. Succinctly put:

1. I can conceive of a being a greater than which cannot possibly be conceived.
2. Existence is greater than non-existence.
3. Ergo, God exists.


Yes, actually. The average American, at least, reads at no higher than the Eighth Grade level. The average newspaper here is written at that level, with the New York Times doing a bit better at the 12th Grade level. Having been a Professor before, I know this shit.

And if you look at the language called Basic English, they manage to reduce the vocabulary to 800 words.

Professor David Crystal, author of amongst others, The Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language, has this to say about estimating the average size of a person's vocabulary.

An easier question to answer, he maintains, is the size of the average person's vocabulary.

He suggests taking a sample of about 20 or 30 pages from a medium-sized dictionary, one which contains about 100,000 entries or 1,000 to 1,500 pages.

Tick off the ones you know and count them. Then multiply that by the number of pages and you will discover how many words you know. Most people vastly underestimate their total.
 
"Most people know half the words - about 50,000 - easily. A reasonably educated person about 75,000 and a really cool, smart person well, maybe all of them but that is rather unusual.

"An ordinary person, one who has not been to university say, would know about 35,000 quite easily."

Professor Crystal knows his shit as well and his shit seems to be different from yours. The question is who should I believe?



Notice, he's an Englishmen. Their education tends to be a bit better than ours. The avg American reads at the 8th Grade level. I am not exaggerating that. You would be astounded at how much the avg American, supposedly high school graduated, college-bound student does NOT know. Having dealt with them in entry level history courses, I know just how ignorant they are.


You are so full of shit its amazing. Go to Albania, which was officially declared a completely Atheist State in 1967, and EVERY house of worship was closed, and anyone who owned any religious material could be given extremely long prison sentences, and anyone who spoke of it in public was shot. Even the USSR never went quite that far.
I was stationed in Albania for a time, while NATO construction workers were building a highway to Kosovo.  Yes, the women are very ugly, but the people are very nice.

In case you did not realise this, there are machinegun pill boxes littered all around the country.  This was done when their paranoid leadership thought the US was going to attack at anytime. 

Now, those pillboxes remain unmanned.  There are just ugly women and gangsters everywhere, or at least that was the case 15 years ago.  So, what is your point? 

Yes, I was aware of the pill boxes. And I am aware that they are currently unmanned. My point is that the so-called "Communist" (which, while they were a lot of things, were NEVER Communist) states of the world, without exception, were EXTREMELY hostile to religion as a matter of course, Killing religious people was part and parcel of government policy, although none took it quite to the degree of Enver Hoxha, of course. Your point is...?


So the oral history of the Jews does not exist. Got it.

This meme idea is extremely simple and self-evident. The God meme is passed on by a culture participating in and propagating the idea throug story-telling, worship, rituals, holidays, etc.... Why are you struggling Yaakov?

If God does not exist, then the idea of God cannot be passed down in the culture, since the idea is inherantly illogical, like the idea "married bachelor". Either God exists or he doesn't. Story telling is one thing. But God, the ultimate power in the universe, either exists as a logical thought, or he does not. If he does not, then that illogical thought cannot be propagated. Since it can be, he must exist. A variation on the Ontological Argument. But true nonetheless.

So an idea of something cannot exist unless the thing actually exists?  Is this your position?

If so, can you please tell me how I can get to Santa's workshop, where do I find the Easter Bunny's hole and how can I get that damn boogie man to stop bothering my son?

That is just a stupid response, and was dealt with years ago. The Argument from Ontology never intended to suggest that it strictly based on existence alone. Obviously, that would be foolishness. Although, even if that was true, you would be hard-pressed to find anybody who would say that the world is a better place because Santa existed or didn't.

The Argument from Ontology is predicated on the fact that a Being that is Greater than Everything exists. Not greater in certain aspects. We're not talking about a greater Coke can, or a greater car, or something like that. We are talking about infinite greatness.

Taking the Coke can as an example, a greatest Coke can might have more Coke in it (which is a bummer if you like Pepsi) than any other Coke can, but the fact that it doesn't have Pepsi in it makes it not so great. God's greatness is universally recognised by anybody with a brain. I mean, I realise of course, that atheists don't qualify as having brains, but I shall deal with that matter separately.


Yonah, I'm a little hard pressed finding any evidence that atheists want to murder people and think they're better than everyone else. Could you mind giving me some sort of, you know, atheist bible that clears up all the atheist rules for me? Thanks. I want to make sure I'm being an orthodox atheist.

Yonah, I still can't find any rulebooks for atheism. Can you please help?

Irrelevant. Atheists don't need a rulebook. Intolerance and general assholishness are sufficient rules for them.


The treatment of religion in the communist countries sounds more like a problem with communism than atheism.  America is an atheist country, it has no official religion, but it allows people to believe and practice how they want, within legal confines of course. 

Are you allowed to wear clothing made of mixed material?

America may be many things, but Atheist it is not. It may not have an official religion, but the fact that it allows churches to perform marriages recognised by the State indicates that it is not officially Atheist. You want that, go to Mexico. There, you can get married in Church if you wish, but you still have to get married by the State, or your marriage is not considered valid. This is considered the case in MOST countries following the Napoleonic Code.

The fact that Iowa still has laws forbidding car dealerships from being open on Sunday indicates how non-Atheist the US is. Other states are the same way, with that and other laws, regarding the selling of alcohol, and other topics. You need to get your facts straight.

Clothing made of mixed material is not permitted in Judaism.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: garygreen on November 04, 2014, 04:21:39 PM
Yonah's logic is both valid and sound.  I use identical reasoning to justify my hatred of nations that start with the letter P.  Each of those nations has a long, storied history of dictatorships, violence, and oppression against its citizenry.  Panama, Peru, and Paraguay all continually oppress their indigenous populations.  Pakistan is nothing but terrorists.  Portugal operated as a colonial power for centuries.  Every single nation that begins with the letter P has done terrible things to both its citizenry and the citizenry of its neighbors.  They're nothing but savage subhumans who should be deported or killed.

Also, the Ontological Arguments is a really excellent demonstration of deduction, and it's still taken very seriously in both religion and philosophy.  Kudos to Yonah for reviving it after its death in the 18th Century. 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on November 04, 2014, 04:51:11 PM
Yon nah-You understand that there is a difference between an argument being logically coherent and an argument actually describing reality right?  I really hope you get that.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on November 04, 2014, 04:56:24 PM
You can be married in a church in America, but unless you file a license with the state, you're not married.  You should know this since you went through it recently.  The ontological argument can be used to make the case God could exist, but it can be used to make the case that a lot of other things could exist.  It doesn't even get close to proving anything does exist.  I really don't know why you continue to hold on to it.

Why are mixed threads prohibited?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 04, 2014, 05:01:17 PM
GARY, that is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. You have managed to surpass Thork. Good move.

Rama, until you can come up with an argument that can defeat the Ontological Argument, I advise shutting your yap. Since we're dealing with God here, the Ultimate Reality is that which is coherent. My God, I just went through this in the LAST post! How dense is it possible for one group of people to be?! It can't possibly be that bad, can it? The atheist cannot prove a negative. I, on the other hand, can give you strong reasons for believing that God exists, albeit not deductively certain ones. You cannot give me strong reasons for assuming that he does not. You've tried, in this and other threads, and failed, miserably at it.

Of course you have to file with the State, but the fact that a minister is even recognised as a valid witness is a point. Nor did you answer my arguments re: Sunday closing laws. Re: the Ontological Argument, we just went over that! It can't be used to argue that other things exist, because other things aren't infinite in scope, and perfect in nature.  There is always something that renders them, not great in some way. How dense can you get? If you people had brains you'd be dangerous.

The simple answer to the last question is, I don't know. I've never asked.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: garygreen on November 04, 2014, 05:08:17 PM
GARY, that is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. You have managed to surpass Thork. Good move.

Finally, we agree on something.  Conflating correlation and causation is really stupid.  I wish you wouldn't do it so often.  It would help you to get along with others better.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on November 04, 2014, 05:29:36 PM

Rama, until you can come up with an argument that can defeat the Ontological Argument, I advise shutting your yap.

millican.org/papers/2004OntArgMind.pdf

Quote
Since we're dealing with God here, the Ultimate Reality is that which is coherent.

Why?

Quote
My God, I just went through this in the LAST post! How dense is it possible for one group of people to be?! It can't possibly be that bad, can it?

Childish ad hominem, etc, etc...

Quote
The atheist cannot prove a negative. I, on the other hand, can give you strong reasons for believing that God exists, albeit not deductively certain ones.

No you can't, you can only give me flawed syllogisms and hopeful principles.  You have not offered anything in the way of proof that God empirically exists.

Quote
You cannot give me strong reasons for assuming that he does not. You've tried, in this and other threads, and failed, miserably at it.

It is not my job to even try and prove the negative.  The burden of proof lies on you as the positive claimant.  I just rebutted Anselm.  If you wanted to start making clear arguments about God as a prime mover or some such, I am happy to rebut those as well.

If you have to resort to claiming that your arguments are "obvious" or that I am "stupid", you obviously have lost the argument.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on November 04, 2014, 05:35:58 PM
I can imagine a being greater than your God, therefore this being exists and your God is not a god.  Regarding the Sunday closing laws, they are the result of religious people overstepping their power by trying to police morals while infringing on constitutional freedom.  Just because religious people are voted into power and make religious based rules, doesn't mean America is a religious nation.  The fact that you don't need to be married by the church is proof enough.

Why have you never questioned that law about mixed thread?  It seems like such a silly rule to have to follow.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 04, 2014, 05:58:10 PM

Rama, until you can come up with an argument that can defeat the Ontological Argument, I advise shutting your yap.

Quote
millican.org/papers/2004OntArgMind.pdf

I haven't got time to read 29 pages. Summarise, please.

Quote
Since we're dealing with God here, the Ultimate Reality is that which is coherent.

Why?

Quote
My God, I just went through this in the LAST post! How dense is it possible for one group of people to be?! It can't possibly be that bad, can it?

Childish ad hominem, etc, etc...

Quote
The atheist cannot prove a negative. I, on the other hand, can give you strong reasons for believing that God exists, albeit not deductively certain ones.

Quote
No you can't, you can only give me flawed syllogisms and hopeful principles.  You have not offered anything in the way of proof that God empirically exists.

Nor have you offered anything in the way of proof that he doesn't.


Quote
You cannot give me strong reasons for assuming that he does not. You've tried, in this and other threads, and failed, miserably at it.

Quote
It is not my job to even try and prove the negative.  The burden of proof lies on you as the positive claimant.  I just rebutted Anselm.  If you wanted to start making clear arguments about God as a prime mover or some such, I am happy to rebut those as well.

It is indeed your job. Since atheism is in fact a new invention, and that mankind has, for the bulk of his history, been religious, it is the duty of those who would challenge that to give their reason why, especially given the horrific toll in lives that atheism has had on the world just in one century.

Quote
If you have to resort to claiming that your arguments are "obvious" or that I am "stupid", you obviously have lost the argument.

Telling you that you are stupid is not abusive. its a statement of fact. It in no way indicates losing anything. It is a statement of information.


I can imagine a being greater than your God, therefore this being exists and your God is not a god.  Regarding the Sunday closing laws, they are the result of religious people overstepping their power by trying to police morals while infringing on constitutional freedom.  Just because religious people are voted into power and make religious based rules, doesn't mean America is a religious nation.  The fact that you don't need to be married by the church is proof enough.

Why have you never questioned that law about mixed thread?  It seems like such a silly rule to have to follow.

Then by imagining a being greater than God, you have just imagined God. Brilliant deduction, Genius. In other words, the Sunday closing laws are indicative that the majority of people in the United States that elect the officials perceive the nation to be... come on now, you can get there... good for you!

Why would I question it? Its an irrelevant point at this time.



Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on November 04, 2014, 06:08:35 PM
If you aren't willing to question the frivolous laws, then why would you even bother to question the major ones?  It's incredibly easy to question those small ones and should be easy to find the answer as to why.

The majority of voters vote in religious people, this doesn't mean America itself is religious and the constitution forbids America from being religious.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 04, 2014, 06:11:39 PM
If you aren't willing to question the frivolous laws, then why would you even bother to question the major ones?  It's incredibly easy to question those small ones and should be easy to find the answer as to why.

The majority of voters vote in religious people, this doesn't mean America itself is religious and the contrition forbids America from being religious.

Well, tell Samuel Alito that. He just recently stated that the Court has the business of "favouring religion", I believe is how he put it. I'll leave that to you to worry about. I'll worry about the laws of Judaism, or rather, I won't worry about them either. I'm quite content. So, it sounds like you have a pesonal problem on both levels.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on November 04, 2014, 06:21:01 PM
Well you did make the thread of "ask a jew" and yet you couldn't provide an answer to a very simple question, you just blindly follow that rule without a second thought.

What happens to a Jew if they knowingly wear mixed threads and do not seek forgiveness?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on November 04, 2014, 06:26:17 PM
Alright, so you didn't bite for the whole Moon business, but here's another one.

So according to genesis God created the universe in 6 days. On the first day he creates light (without a Sun since he makes that on the 4th day, mind you) and darkness (1:3).  On the second day, God creates a solid roof to separate the waters from the heavens which is called the Firmament (1:6). On the third day, God created plants by letting "the Earth bring forth" the plants instead of just zapping them into existence (1:11). Now at this point God says something like "yeah, this is good" (1:12). He's pleased with his creation thus far, so afterwards on the 4th day he creates "two great lights" which are the Sun and Moon (1:14 yes, still lumping the Moon in as a light because that's what is insinuated). There are a few days left (mostly he makes stars and some other shit) but I'm going to skip those because they're irrelevant to my point.

How did the Earth produce any plants without Sunlight? God created plant life on the third day, and then on the 4th day he created the Sun and Moon. Notice how the Bible says "let's the Earth bring forth" plants. These plants weren't just materialized by God, they were grown. Logically we'd have to assume that these growing plants used the process of photosynthesis, but that would have been impossible without the Sun to help them.

And keep in mind that God "saw that it was good", despite the fact that he didn't even create things in the right order. He created life before the sun and moon were created, which is absurd because without the sun life could not exist on Earth. God is a moron.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on November 04, 2014, 07:56:15 PM
Quote
This just in, every person that invents a word is literally Hitler. You realise that 'meme' has a different usage on the internet that Dawkins never intended?

I'm also really tired of seeing Communist states mentioned whenever atheism comes up. Those people weren't killed because of atheism, because atheism is not a belief system. How many died under Nazism? Because Hitler used christian rhetoric to justify some of his behaviour. The crusades as well, religious wars justified through religion. Your buddies in Israel, how many wars have they fought over the last 60 years? Countless.

Many more people have died due to religious wars than because of atheism. I challenge you to find a case of an atheist killing someone because they're religious. It hasn't happened because there isn't some atheist fantasy book that tells you who you should kill, such as the Bible, Koran and Torah.

You are so full of shit its amazing. Go to Albania, which was officially declared a completely Atheist State in 1967, and EVERY house of worship was closed, and anyone who owned any religious material could be given extremely long prison sentences, and anyone who spoke of it in public was shot. Even the USSR never went quite that far.

Your challenge is easily defeated. The State Atheists made it policy that religious people, starting with the clergy, were to be killed outright, or otherwise dealt with such that they would be removed as a threat to the State. In China, and in North Korea, worship of the Leader (especially in North Korea where it is still going on) has replaced traditional religions, and practice of those religions has become difficult if not impossible.

God, if you had a brain you would seriously be a danger to yourself. Go read some history, and then come back and maybe we can have a conversation. MAYBE.

You're still missing the point. Atheism is not a philosophy or creed, it's simply a stance on God. Atheism can't kill people because it has no rules, no holy texts, no commandments.

Because extremist ideologies happened to be atheist does not mean they murdered people in the name of atheism.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on November 04, 2014, 08:33:27 PM
This has to be like a record or something. Yaakov has effectively trolled at least half of the active participants in this forum and is probably the most in-depth character troll I've ever seen. He makes Tom Bishop look like a two dimensional robot.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on November 04, 2014, 08:34:41 PM
This has to be like a record or something. Yaakov has effectively trolled at least half of the active participants in this forum and is probably the most in-depth character troll I've ever seen. He makes Tom Bishop look like a two dimensional robot.

I'm convinced that Tom Bishop is Jaakov.

And how are we getting trolled when we're aware of it? At least I think most of us are aware of it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on November 04, 2014, 08:39:54 PM
This has to be like a record or something. Yaakov has effectively trolled at least half of the active participants in this forum and is probably the most in-depth character troll I've ever seen. He makes Tom Bishop look like a two dimensional robot.

Eh, if you count getting any response as getting trolled. No one is angry (except maybe Yaakov). I've been intentionally trying to shit up the thread as well.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on November 04, 2014, 08:44:13 PM
This has to be like a record or something. Yaakov has effectively trolled at least half of the active participants in this forum and is probably the most in-depth character troll I've ever seen. He makes Tom Bishop look like a two dimensional robot.

Why is it so hard to believe that he's a real person?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on November 04, 2014, 08:47:51 PM
This has to be like a record or something. Yaakov has effectively trolled at least half of the active participants in this forum and is probably the most in-depth character troll I've ever seen. He makes Tom Bishop look like a two dimensional robot.

Why is it so hard to believe that he's a real person?


Because his intellect shines through sometimes. He's clever, and someone as clever as Yaakov could not be so die-hard about a belief that has no supporting evidence. At least that's my opinion.

Not to mention his liberal use of profanity would make his Jewish mother turn in her grave or smack him across the head if she's still alive.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on November 04, 2014, 08:51:29 PM
Why is it so hard to believe that he's a real person?

He denies arguments even when it isn't fundamental to his own (e.g. anselm's trollogical argument). He is arguing for the sake of it, not in support of something else.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on November 04, 2014, 08:52:46 PM
Why is it so hard to believe that he's a real person?

He denies arguments even when it isn't fundamental to his own (e.g. anselm's trollogical argument). He is arguing for the sake of it, not in support of something else.

Good point. No real human bean would ever argue "for the sake of it".
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: jroa on November 04, 2014, 08:53:09 PM
Also, both Tom and Yaakov complain about their dumb phones. 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on November 04, 2014, 08:58:11 PM
Good point. No real human bean would ever argue "just for the sake of it".

I didn't make that claim.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Shane on November 04, 2014, 09:00:06 PM
Why is it so hard to believe that he's a real person?

He denies arguments even when it isn't fundamental to his own (e.g. anselm's trollogical argument). He is arguing for the sake of it, not in support of something else.

Good point. No real human bean would ever argue "just for the sake of it".

As a human bean I resent this
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on November 04, 2014, 09:04:38 PM
This has to be like a record or something. Yaakov has effectively trolled at least half of the active participants in this forum and is probably the most in-depth character troll I've ever seen. He makes Tom Bishop look like a two dimensional robot.
He puts a lot of effort into it.  And we're entertained.  I'd call him a comedian, not a troll.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on November 04, 2014, 09:05:40 PM
Why is it so hard to believe that he's a real person?

He denies arguments even when it isn't fundamental to his own (e.g. anselm's trollogical argument). He is arguing for the sake of it, not in support of something else.

Good point. No real human bean would ever argue "for the sake of it".

incoming thread split in 3..2..
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on November 04, 2014, 09:06:13 PM
He puts a lot of effort into it.  And we're entertained.  I'd call him a comedian, not a troll.

You can be both. Troll is a method of interaction, not necessarily a personality or profession.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 05, 2014, 05:50:04 AM
Well you did make the thread of "ask a jew" and yet you couldn't provide an answer to a very simple question, you just blindly follow that rule without a second thought.

What happens to a Jew if they knowingly wear mixed threads and do not seek forgiveness?

Why does anything have to happen?


Alright, so you didn't bite for the whole Moon business, but here's another one.

Quote
So according to genesis God created the universe in 6 days. On the first day he creates light (without a Sun since he makes that on the 4th day, mind you) and darkness (1:3).  On the second day, God creates a solid roof to separate the waters from the heavens which is called the Firmament (1:6). On the third day, God created plants by letting "the Earth bring forth" the plants instead of just zapping them into existence (1:11). Now at this point God says something like "yeah, this is good" (1:12). He's pleased with his creation thus far, so afterwards on the 4th day he creates "two great lights" which are the Sun and Moon (1:14 yes, still lumping the Moon in as a light because that's what is insinuated). There are a few days left (mostly he makes stars and some other shit) but I'm going to skip those because they're irrelevant to my point.

So, the light issue is dealt with. The light came from God's own emanations.  As the divine being, he has (at least in Kabbala they teach that he has) I believe 9 emanations. I may be wrong on the number, however. But I am no Kabbalist. I know very little about it. All I know is that the Rabbis postulated that the Light of God was literal, and emanated from him until the Sun was made.

Quote
How did the Earth produce any plants without Sunlight? God created plant life on the third day, and then on the 4th day he created the Sun and Moon. Notice how the Bible says "let's the Earth bring forth" plants. These plants weren't just materialized by God, they were grown. Logically we'd have to assume that these growing plants used the process of photosynthesis, but that would have been impossible without the Sun to help them.

Actually, the Rabbis resolved that problem by arguing that the earth received light from the divine emanations of god until such time as the two great lights were made. In other words, God himself produced the light from within his emanations that he used to light the earth.

Quote
And keep in mind that God "saw that it was good", despite the fact that he didn't even create things in the right order. He created life before the sun and moon were created, which is absurd because without the sun life could not exist on Earth. God is a moron.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on November 05, 2014, 03:19:59 PM
So there are no repercussions at all for not following God's laws?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on November 05, 2014, 03:30:13 PM
So there are no repercussions at all for not following God's laws?

Well in the old testament he killed people on the spot for not following his laws. Obviously he doesn't give a shit anymore.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on November 05, 2014, 03:51:00 PM

Rama, until you can come up with an argument that can defeat the Ontological Argument, I advise shutting your yap.

Quote
millican.org/papers/2004OntArgMind.pdf

I haven't got time to read 29 pages. Summarise, please.

Summary: Anselm's argument is wrong.

Quote
Quote
The atheist cannot prove a negative. I, on the other hand, can give you strong reasons for believing that God exists, albeit not deductively certain ones.

Quote
No you can't, you can only give me flawed syllogisms and hopeful principles.  You have not offered anything in the way of proof that God empirically exists.

Nor have you offered anything in the way of proof that he doesn't.

The burden of proof is on you.


Quote
Quote
You cannot give me strong reasons for assuming that he does not. You've tried, in this and other threads, and failed, miserably at it.

Quote
It is not my job to even try and prove the negative.  The burden of proof lies on you as the positive claimant.  I just rebutted Anselm.  If you wanted to start making clear arguments about God as a prime mover or some such, I am happy to rebut those as well.

It is indeed your job. Since atheism is in fact a new invention, and that mankind has, for the bulk of his history, been religious, it is the duty of those who would challenge that to give their reason why, especially given the horrific toll in lives that atheism has had on the world just in one century.

This is incorrect in a lot of ways.  Please learn about burden of proof and get back to us.

Quote
Quote
If you have to resort to claiming that your arguments are "obvious" or that I am "stupid", you obviously have lost the argument.

Telling you that you are stupid is not abusive. its a statement of fact. It in no way indicates losing anything. It is a statement of information.

Funny that you inserted the adjective abusive.  Anyway, keep digging in to your irrational fallacious hole.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on November 05, 2014, 10:58:44 PM
If God is such a perfect divine being why is everything that he makes so damn complicated? Why do I have kidneys, liver, a heart, etc? Why couldn't he just make us energy based lifeforms? I don't think this would have taken away free-will, because we wouldn't know any better. Why couldn't he give us the same capacity for learning and free-thought, but make it so we don't have to deal with diseases and health complications? This seems like the optimal way to go when creating something that is based on your own image, because I'm guessing that God is not affected by disease and other health issues.

If God made us in his image, then why didn't he make us in his image? Why aren't we floaty spirit-like energy based lifeforms immune from the trappings of flesh?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 06, 2014, 01:57:22 AM
If I see a watch, and you tell me it has no maker, you have to prove that it doesn't. I assume naturally that it does. If I see the universe, and you tell me it has no maker, you must prove to me that it doesn't. I assume that it does until then. I realise that is difficult to comprehend for the atheist, given the peabrain nature of what's going on between their ears, but...
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on November 06, 2014, 01:59:25 AM
You didn't answer any of my questions, Jaakov.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on November 06, 2014, 02:10:42 AM
If I see a watch, and you tell me it has no maker, you have to prove that it doesn't. I assume naturally that it does. If I see the universe, and you tell me it has no maker, you must prove to me that it doesn't. I assume that it does until then. I realise that is difficult to comprehend for the atheist, given the peabrain nature of what's going on between their ears, but...

Why does the Universe require a maker? This is like saying "I see a rock so it assume it was made by someone".
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on November 06, 2014, 02:11:00 AM
If I see a watch, and you tell me it has no maker, you have to prove that it doesn't. I assume naturally that it does.

What made god? I assume naturally that god has a maker.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 06, 2014, 02:22:57 AM
Vaux, I get to them tomorrow. My wife will be home soon. See you then.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on November 06, 2014, 02:23:16 AM
If I see a watch, and you tell me it has no maker, you have to prove that it doesn't. I assume naturally that it does. If I see the universe, and you tell me it has no maker, you must prove to me that it doesn't. I assume that it does until then. I realise that is difficult to comprehend for the atheist, given the peabrain nature of what's going on between their ears, but...
Only if you were told watches are made.  If you had never seen a watch, how would you know it didn't occur naturally?

Also: watches are not naturally occurring on Earth. 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on November 06, 2014, 02:35:22 AM
If I see a watch, and you tell me it has no maker, you have to prove that it doesn't. I assume naturally that it does. If I see the universe, and you tell me it has no maker, you must prove to me that it doesn't. I assume that it does until then. I realise that is difficult to comprehend for the atheist, given the peabrain nature of what's going on between their ears, but...

I dont know any atheists that say the universe is eternal.  I definitely believe the universe had a "maker", however I would contest that the "maker" of the universe must necessarily be a conscious being.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on November 06, 2014, 02:37:51 AM
Also: watches are not naturally occurring on Earth.

Incorrect. Earth is inhabited by organisms which create watches through natural means.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on November 06, 2014, 02:53:46 AM
Incorrect. Earth is inhabited by organisms which create watches through natural means.

Please tell me about these organisms that naturally make watches.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on November 06, 2014, 02:57:05 AM
They are the most dangerous and destructive animals on the planet, but they are also the cleverest. You may know of them as... Human Beans.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on November 06, 2014, 03:01:36 AM
They are the most dangerous and destructive animals on the planet, but they are also the cleverest. You may know of them as... Human Beans.

I would say something about the term "natural" not including man made objects but I thought you were referencing humans. I guess beans count as natural, but I would very much like a citation on these watch-making beans.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Shane on November 06, 2014, 03:02:40 AM
Confirmed, as a Hunan bean iattest my body naturally produces watches. 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on November 06, 2014, 03:03:56 AM
Confirmed, as a Hunan bean iattest my body naturally produces watches.

This is acceptable evidence.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on November 06, 2014, 03:16:48 AM
If I see a watch, and you tell me it has no maker, you have to prove that it doesn't. I assume naturally that it does. If I see the universe, and you tell me it has no maker, you must prove to me that it doesn't. I assume that it does until then. I realise that is difficult to comprehend for the atheist, given the peabrain nature of what's going on between their ears, but...

This is an inherently flawed argument and you know it, and the fact that you're falling back on it suggests that you have no good arguments and you know it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on November 06, 2014, 03:19:42 AM
If I see a watch, and you tell me it has no maker, you have to prove that it doesn't. I assume naturally that it does. If I see the universe, and you tell me it has no maker, you must prove to me that it doesn't. I assume that it does until then. I realise that is difficult to comprehend for the atheist, given the peabrain nature of what's going on between their ears, but...

This is an inherently flawed argument and you know it, and the fact that you're falling back on it suggests that you have no good arguments and you know it.

Or that the thread has pretty much flatlined and he is posting a bad argument combined with "only dum ppl don't beleve this!!!!11!" in an attempt to rev the thread back up to troll mode.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 06, 2014, 03:33:36 AM
If I see a watch, and you tell me it has no maker, you have to prove that it doesn't. I assume naturally that it does. If I see the universe, and you tell me it has no maker, you must prove to me that it doesn't. I assume that it does until then. I realise that is difficult to comprehend for the atheist, given the peabrain nature of what's going on between their ears, but...

This is an inherently flawed argument and you know it, and the fact that you're falling back on it suggests that you have no good arguments and you know it.

Prove that it is inherently flawed. If you can't, shut your yap.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on November 06, 2014, 05:06:44 AM
If I see a watch, and you tell me it has no maker, you have to prove that it doesn't. I assume naturally that it does. If I see the universe, and you tell me it has no maker, you must prove to me that it doesn't. I assume that it does until then. I realise that is difficult to comprehend for the atheist, given the peabrain nature of what's going on between their ears, but...

This is an inherently flawed argument and you know it, and the fact that you're falling back on it suggests that you have no good arguments and you know it.

Prove that it is inherently flawed. If you can't, shut your yap.

You have a much higher standard for others than you do for yourself.

The universe is not a watch. I don't look at the Grand Canyon and assume that it's the result of a massive construction project. I assume, correctly, that it is the result of undirected natural processes over unimaginable amounts of time. You can't compare the universe to a watch without adequately explaining what makes the two similar. What property does a watch have that proves that it is intelligently designed which the universe shares but demonstrably complex natural structures do not?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on November 06, 2014, 05:11:45 AM
This is starting to remind me of theoretical mathematics. You can create a universe where the logic is entirely self-sufficient (or at least appears to be), but that doesn't mean it's real.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 06, 2014, 05:23:05 AM
Explain how the universe is NOT like a watch. As a former bookie, I can tell you myself, in spite of what people stupidly say in this forum, the odds of the Earth alone (forget about the rest of the universe) being built with just the right amount of chemicals and what-not to support life is so-far from likely that its stupid. I mean, you couldn't get a bookie to offer odds on that.

And then some schmuck says that the universe may have occurred in a non-random way but still without a Creator. That, of course, surpasses every argument for stupid I've EVER heard. I mean, a universe like ours (hell, again, just leave it to an Earth like ours) occurring randomly is next to impossible, let alone it occurring naturally through non-random events, but without a Creator. That one just takes the taco for stupid.

And no, this is not ad hominem. This is statement of information. There comes a point when you have to question the intelligence of people. This is one of those times.

So, you don't question who made a doghouse, but you do question who made the dog. Explain how that is not fucking retarded. Just the fact that said dog is built with a logically put together structure indicates that its design was planned. That is why it has duplication of some bodily organisms, so one can take over if the other fails.

You still haven't proven the argument false yet. Keep trying, though. I find it humourous.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Shane on November 06, 2014, 05:26:24 AM
You haven't answered who created God, if everything requires creation
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on November 06, 2014, 05:41:31 AM
There are hundreds of billions of stars in the universe, likely with their own planets around them.  The fact that at least one developed life is actually very good when compared to how many planets there could be.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on November 06, 2014, 05:41:55 AM
I recall you responding to my argument on the likelihood of the universe by simply saying "time didn't exist before the universe", which you didn't substantiate at all. Seeing as your foundation for calling people stupid relies on that notion, would you care to actually make a case for it?

As for the universe itself, it's a good thing you're not a bookie anymore, because you don't seem to grasp that extremely unlikely events do occur given a large enough set and time. Given how big the universe is, it would be more unlikely for an Earth-like planet to not exist, when we know that it's a composition that can occur naturally.

Hell, Earth is hardly even ideal. Most of it isn't habitable for humans and it routinely fucks over species with climate changes and disasters. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that planets that are even better for intelligent life than Earth already exist.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 06, 2014, 05:48:01 AM
God is the Uncreated Creator. Why do I deal with stupid questions?  One of the aspects of being "a being a greater than which cannot possibly be conceived" is to be uncreated and eternal.


I recall you responding to my argument on the likelihood of the universe by simply saying "time didn't exist before the universe", which you didn't substantiate at all. Seeing as your foundation for calling people stupid relies on that notion, would you care to actually make a case for it?

Quote
As for the universe itself, it's a good thing you're not a bookie anymore, because you don't seem to grasp that extremely unlikely events do occur given a large enough set and time. Given how big the universe is, it would be more unlikely for an Earth-like planet to not exist, when we know that it's a composition that can occur naturally.

I expect there are other Earthlike planets. Again, more proof of a Creator. Less likely that it occurred naturally.

Quote
Hell, Earth is hardly even ideal. Most of it isn't habitable for humans and it routinely fucks over species with climate changes and disasters. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that planets that are even better for intelligent life than Earth already exist.

Which again, is evidence of a Creator, who would offer planets for colonisation. I'll deal with the time argument tomorrow.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on November 06, 2014, 05:53:46 AM
Okay, you can base your beliefs on confirmation bias all you like, but don't call others stupid for not being the same way.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Fortuna on November 06, 2014, 05:56:45 AM
As a former bookie, I can tell you myself, in spite of what people stupidly say in this forum, the odds of the Earth alone (forget about the rest of the universe) being built with just the right amount of chemicals and what-not to support life is so-far from likely that its stupid.

I thought Murphy's Law was common knowledge. If there's a one in a trillion chance of something happening, given enough time, it will happen. For example, a supernova is an apparently rare occurrence. But given the size of the universe, it's actually a common event.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Shane on November 06, 2014, 06:43:47 AM
If God can be uncreated and eternal why can't existence itself be?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on November 06, 2014, 09:00:13 AM
I can imagine a perfect universe.  One which there is no greater universe.  Therefore it is an eternal, uncreated universe.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: mathsman on November 06, 2014, 09:43:56 AM
I can imagine a perfect universe.  One which there is no greater universe.  Therefore it is an eternal, uncreated universe.

Or it could mean you are a god.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on November 06, 2014, 10:07:01 AM
Explain how the universe is NOT like a watch. As a former bookie, I can tell you myself, in spite of what people stupidly say in this forum, the odds of the Earth alone (forget about the rest of the universe) being built with just the right amount of chemicals and what-not to support life is so-far from likely that its stupid. I mean, you couldn't get a bookie to offer odds on that.

You mean to say that life only arises in the places that allow it? Holy fucking shit!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on November 06, 2014, 01:13:26 PM
Explain how the universe is NOT like a watch. As a former bookie, I can tell you myself, in spite of what people stupidly say in this forum, the odds of the Earth alone (forget about the rest of the universe) being built with just the right amount of chemicals and what-not to support life is so-far from likely that its stupid. I mean, you couldn't get a bookie to offer odds on that.

Physics suggest otherwise. If it's so unlikely, why is venus almost exactly the same?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: mathsman on November 06, 2014, 01:53:48 PM
Explain how the universe is NOT like a watch. As a former bookie, I can tell you myself, in spite of what people stupidly say in this forum, the odds of the Earth alone (forget about the rest of the universe) being built with just the right amount of chemicals and what-not to support life is so-far from likely that its stupid. I mean, you couldn't get a bookie to offer odds on that.


According to an article in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences there are 8.8 billion earth-sized planets in the 'Goldilocks' zone around planets in our galaxy alone. What are the odds that ours is the only one with life?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on November 06, 2014, 07:35:20 PM
he is posting a bad argument combined with "only dum ppl don't beleve this!!!!11!" in an attempt to rev the thread back up to troll mode.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on November 07, 2014, 04:22:51 AM
he is posting a bad argument combined with "only dum ppl don't beleve this!!!!11!" in an attempt to rev the thread back up to troll mode.

Welcome to the Flat Earth Society
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on November 08, 2014, 01:35:47 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/K9xNOWb.jpg)

Why do Jews do this to their sideburns? What is the point of this fashion disaster?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 08, 2014, 04:05:26 AM
Not all of us do. However, to explain why it is done, to wit:

There is a passage in Leviticus that states that a Jew shall not cut the corners of his beard. What "the corners" are happen to be  variously interpreted by Jewish scholars. Some scholars interpret it to mean you cannot shave the sideburns, or even cut them. Other scholars interpret it to mean the corners of the beard proper. I can't really explain that without a photo, and I haven't got one. But suffice it to say that I do not grow sidelocks, which are called peyas in Yiddish. Of course, the bottom corners are pretty obvious.

Now, some Jews cheat. The Halacha (Jewish Law) specifically states that one shall not cut the beard with a straight razor. So some Jews use an electric razor, which is basically little tiny scissors that clip the hair from the face. That is why an electric shave is never as close as a straight razor shave.

Although technically permitted, it violates the spirit of the thing in my mind. And the point of having a beard in the first place is to avoid having a female appearance. So... Well, you can see where I am going with this. Anyway, that is the answer. I don't grow peyas myself. Men that do, like the fellow in the picture, have to start when they are very young. Usually, they start NOT cutting the sidelocks when they are about three or so.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on November 08, 2014, 04:18:02 AM
And the point of having a beard in the first place is to avoid having a female appearance.

Where did you pick up this gem.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 08, 2014, 12:11:06 PM
Its part of the Holiness Code. The same code where a man is forbidden to be castrated (or for that matter, any male creature), nor wear the clothing of the opposite sex. Incidentally, this last commandment also applies to females. It is part of the same code that forbids men lying with me, that was interpreted as a broad blanket ban on homosexuality, whether rightly or wrongly, as the case may be.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: DuckDodgers on November 08, 2014, 02:44:03 PM
Does this mean it is forbidden for women to wear pants?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on November 08, 2014, 02:49:06 PM
Does this mean it is forbidden for women to wear pants?
Yes but men can totally wear dresses.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on November 08, 2014, 02:56:02 PM
The same code where a man is forbidden to be castrated (or for that matter, any male creature)

Why do you keep constantly breaking that one?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Snupes on November 08, 2014, 03:52:30 PM
The same code where a man is forbidden to be castrated (or for that matter, any male creature)

Why do you keep constantly breaking that one?
I'm not sure you know what castration is.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 08, 2014, 07:15:09 PM
Does this mean it is forbidden for women to wear pants?

Traditionally speaking, and among your extreme Orthodox communities, yes.


Does this mean it is forbidden for women to wear pants?
Yes but men can totally wear dresses.

Ah, no, they can't.


Quote
The same code where a man is forbidden to be castrated (or for that matter, any male creature)

Quote
Why do you keep constantly breaking that one?

How am I breaking that one?

Quote
I'm not sure you know what castration is.

Indeed, I wonder if he knows what it is.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on November 08, 2014, 10:53:34 PM
Why are Jews so naturally feminine that without a beard or men's clothing they are indistinguishable from females?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on November 09, 2014, 12:31:52 AM
Why are Jews so naturally feminine that without a beard or men's clothing they are indistinguishable from females?

God made them in his image and appartently God is a woman.

next question.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 09, 2014, 12:44:45 AM
Why are Jews so naturally feminine that without a beard or men's clothing they are indistinguishable from females?

Actually, no. It should be noted that Muslims have the same rules. They, of course, borrowed them from us.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on November 09, 2014, 01:32:17 AM
Actually, no. It should be noted that Muslims have the same rules. They, of course, borrowed them from us.

Why are both Jews and Muslims naturally feminine? As I am in the military, I am around men without beards (and men and women wear the same uniforms). Should I ask any apparently female member if they are Jewish or Muslim just in case they are a man who looks like a woman?

Speaking of which, how does Judaism reconcile wearing gas masks? Surely the Bible doesn't say "don't shave your beard, unless the enemy might use chemical attacks and you need a gas mask."
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 09, 2014, 02:09:45 AM
Actually, in the interest of saving lives, any Jewish law may be dispensed with, which is why shaving to be part of the military is permitted, or to be a firefighter, and so-forth. Also, doctors using cell phones, or working on Shabbat, and so-forth. And you have to understand when the rules were made. At the the time, all the nations around Israel were in the practice of the effeminate eunuch, who was the receiving end of a homosexual pairing wherein the ruler would be dominant, and the eunuch would be submissive, shaving his beard to be more feminine. This practice was forbidden in Israel, as was the whole idea of men lying with men, or castration at all.

The whole point of this was that God wanted the Jews to be distinctively male and female, rather than mixed, as the nations around them were. Again, I think that this was not speaking of homosexuality as such, but of heterosexuals engaging in homosexual acts, although the jury is still out on that one. As to why females aren't mentioned more, well, that's an interesting question.  Granted, they the society was more patriarchal, but then, there is a great deal of material written on women regarding Niddah, and purity, and matters of that sort, so surely, if God had been concerned for their sexual purity to the degree that he was men's, I am sure he would have said something.

In fact, most Jews are convinced that women are naturally more spiritual than men. Men are required to worship three times a day, in synagogue if possible. Women are required to pray once a day, at home, especially when raising children, and when taking time from the home would cause her to be less able to attend to the needs of her husband and especially children.

Now mind you, I am giving you an Orthodox, and an EXTREMELY Traditional Orthodox,view of the world, view on the matter. The reason I am doing this is not necessarily because I am exactly of those views. In fact, although I consider myself a fairly Traditional Jew, my own marriage is not at all like the above. How could it be, with me on Disability, and my wife working outside the home and being a Goy, albeit a conservative one, at that?

The reason I am giving you the Orthodox viewpoint is because most religious Jews in the world hold to it, and the ones that don't are changing those views. Those are the ones they are basing their changes on. So when you ask a Conservative or Reform Jew what traditions he adheres to and what ones he changes, he will tell you based on the Orthodox ones I am giving you.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on November 09, 2014, 02:28:24 AM
That makes sense, but it is a bit weird of a view to hold today. It seems like the Jews need a thunderstorm to update their instruction manual.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on November 09, 2014, 03:58:13 AM
Why is the Bible (and by extension, God) so sexist? As a followup question, since God is the most perfect being and he is sexist does this make sexism an admirable trait? Are you sexist enough to get into heaven?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 09, 2014, 03:36:15 PM
That makes sense, but it is a bit weird of a view to hold today. It seems like the Jews need a thunderstorm to update their instruction manual.

Well, interesting point, but lets look at that. Remember that in our 4000 year history, up until the last two hundred years ago, Jews lived only with other Jews. This was for two reasons: 1, Gentile governments, both Christian and Muslim required it. 2, Jews eventually learned to prefer it.

With Emancipation (in the Christian World during the Enlightenment) and the parallel Haskalah (the Jewish Enlightenment), and freedom from the ghetto, Jews for the first time begin to live amongst other persons.

It was then that Moses Mendelsohn (grandfather of the composer Felix) translated the Torah into German, and, although he personally was Orthodox, did a lot of things that would lead to the eventual development of Reform Judaism in the next Century.

Whilst Jews lived amongst themselves, the social pressures exerted within the community kept certain things very low. For example, alcoholism among Jews was a very minor issue when Jews lived only with each other, because social pressure kept it that way. It was only when Jews started living with others that that changed. Now, if you compare Jews to non-Jews, it is only slightly less than the average.

Although the views that you perceive as "weird" today may seem a bit unusual, you will note that, among the shtetls that still exist (small towns that are still predominantly Jewish [85% or more]) the socialisation process is still very much like it was, with divorce rates very low, alcoholism also low, STDs very low, etc.

Among Jews who live with non-Jews, the rates of all these things (now mind you, I am speaking in both cases of religious Jews) tend to be only slightly below average. For Jews who are non-religious, these social indicators are equal to the general population.

When I refer to social pressure, most of the social pressure was and is Torah obligation. And if you were to recommend that the book be "updated", the first question that would be asked would be, "why?"

Remember that the idea of shaving one's face for other than being a eunuch came from the Romans. So, if non-Jews can follow an outdated Roman practice, why can't Jews follow their practice and grow beards?



Why is the Bible (and by extension, God) so sexist? As a followup question, since God is the most perfect being and he is sexist does this make sexism an admirable trait? Are you sexist enough to get into heaven?

Of course, one could argue that the Bible is not sexist at all, but that it merely suggests appropriate behaviour for men and for women. As per the previous notes above, where Jews live amongst themselves, all the social indicators seem to show that living according to Torah rule isn't a bad idea.

It could also be said (and is by liberal Jews) that social existence does indeed change and should, but that the eternal core values of the Torah do not. This argument has less to recommend it in my opinion.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on November 09, 2014, 04:46:54 PM
Remember that the idea of shaving one's face for other than being a eunuch came from the Romans. So, if non-Jews can follow an outdated Roman practice, why can't Jews follow their practice and grow beards?

Shaving your face in the modern meaning came about by means of the military forcing individuals to shave their face during WWI so that they can wear gas masks. This is also why as those WWI veterans returned, what resembles modern day suits appeared, and as suits are meant to serve a similar purpose as military uniforms (everyone looking nearly the same) then naturally the shaved faces persisted. Before WWI suits didn't look much like our modern day suits at all and shaving your face didn't have entirely much to do with wearing one. Before that, shaving your face was merely a fashion thing, and wasn't really common outside of high classes.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on November 09, 2014, 04:57:11 PM
I don't understand the connection between shaved faces and modern suits.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on November 09, 2014, 05:05:44 PM
I don't understand the connection between shaved faces and modern suits.

Modern suits are a result of military mimicry during and after WWI. This included a shaved face and short hair. It isn't an absolute rule, but a lot of employers will turn away applicants with long hair, beards, or for not wearing a proper suit to the interview.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Snupes on November 09, 2014, 05:13:32 PM
I don't understand the connection between shaved faces and modern suits.

Modern suits are a result of military mimicry during and after WWI. This included a shaved face and short hair. It isn't an absolute rule, but a lot of employers will turn away applicants with long hair, beards, or for not wearing a proper suit to the interview.

Nobody has turned me away for having long hair
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 09, 2014, 05:30:22 PM
Shaving the face as a military practice was around LONG before the militaries of WWI were thought of. The Romans were the first. In their battles with the Barbarian Germans, they found that one of the weaknesses of the Germans was that they could be grabbed by the beard and thrown, or pulled, or whatever. The Romans shaved to avoid the facial hair being used in that manner.

Certainly, the gas mask reinforced not growing a beard. But the militaries of Europe and the USA had been shaving their faces for years, or at least keeping the beard quite trim. In the Civil War, it depended on what part of the Army you were in, for example. Some parts of it were required to shave, and some were not.

It is true that many (perhaps most) employers will avoid hiring a person who is not dressed "appropriately" for an interview. "Appropriate", in the minds of many, means a suit and a clean shaven appearance.

There are usually exceptions made for religious garb, although one is still expected, insofar as one is able, to meet standard appearance guidelines. If I were going to look for work today, I would wear a suit and tie, and tuck three of my fringes into my pants, and one of them extended (the front right), in accordance with Ashkenazi Jewish law. And I would wear a Yarmulke that properly matched the appearance of my suit, and it would be of a dressy character. The mustache would be shaved, and the beard would be oiled and combed through properly.

Regarding the fringes, it is customary for Jews to have all four fringes extended. However, among the Ashkenaz, it is permitted to tuck three of them into one's pants, and to leave the front right extended. The Sephardi are required to leave all four extended. Fortunately, I am Ashkenazi.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on November 09, 2014, 06:22:47 PM
Why are Jews so rude?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on November 09, 2014, 06:23:07 PM
Funny that only patriarchal societies think it appropriate that women be "purified" after menstruating. It almost is like a prescription made up by men who did not understand menstruating was natural and normal.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 09, 2014, 08:16:17 PM
Why are Jews so rude?

In general, I have never noticed them to be per se. Some certainly are, but some are not. It really depends on the Jew. Those Jews who spend very little time around non-Jews simply don't know HOW to associate among them. They often appear rude when they are with Gentiles.

Jews who live among non-Jews generally know how to behave, so their conduct is generally perceived as appropriate. It can often be interesting when one stradles both worlds, the Orthodox and the Gentile. Among Jews of all types, from Orthodox to Reform, I can politely refuse to shake hands with women, and most of them comprehend it. Among Gentiles, I generally have to touch hands, at least briefly.

Using that as an example, a Jew who lives only with Jews, if he were to find himself with non-Jews, would not shake hands with a woman at all. The results would be that the non-Jewish woman, not understanding Jewish custom in this regard, would perceive the man to be personally rude, or, if this has happened with more than one Jew, then possibly all Jews as rude.

I find the experience of shaking hands with a woman quite distasteful. But in the interests of diffusing tension between Jew and non-Jew, it is worth it. But among Jews, I certainly do not.


Funny that only patriarchal societies think it appropriate that women be "purified" after menstruating. It almost is like a prescription made up by men who did not understand menstruating was natural and normal.

You will note that among men in extremely Orthodox communities, they must be purified after emission of semen the same way that women must after menstruation. The Torah has a great deal to say about that as well. So, no, Niddah has nothing to do with Patriarchalism.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on November 09, 2014, 08:26:32 PM
Nobody has turned me away for having long hair

But what did they have to say about your beard?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on November 09, 2014, 08:46:58 PM
Not that ejaculating and menstruation are at all comparable, but sure, this makes Judaism sound very egalitarian.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Snupes on November 09, 2014, 10:55:28 PM
Nobody has turned me away for having long hair

But what did they have to say about your beard?

Well, seeing as I only apply to carnival "freak" side-shows they love it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on November 10, 2014, 12:12:36 AM
How do you feel about the fact that modern Israel was first led by an atheist?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 10, 2014, 03:09:05 AM
Actually, I don't care much at all. Israel was founded by a combination of secular socialists and religious Zionists. When the Declaration of Independence was written, they included the phrase "Rock of Israel" in it, which to the Zionists meant God, and to the socialists meant God knows what. In order to get the State founded, a lot of compromises had to be made. Shit happens. The Zionists gave up a lot, but so did the Socialists. It worked out in the end.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on November 10, 2014, 05:03:19 PM
Heard a top quality Jew joke today and I thought I'd share.

Quote
You know why Jewish men get circumcised?

Because Jewish women won't touch anything unless it's 20% off.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on November 10, 2014, 05:11:26 PM
Heard a top quality Jew joke today and I thought I'd share.

Quote
You know why Jewish men get circumcised?

Because Jewish women won't touch anything unless it's 20% off.
But then why do virtually all American men get circumcised too? Do they all want to tap some Jews?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on November 10, 2014, 05:12:54 PM
Surely the real joke is that anybody's penis would be 1/5 foreskin.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on November 10, 2014, 05:16:12 PM
Surely the real joke is that anybody's penis would be 1/5 foreskin.
Yes.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on November 10, 2014, 05:18:11 PM
In that case: ha ha ha.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on November 10, 2014, 05:18:53 PM
Heard a top quality Jew joke today and I thought I'd share.

Quote
You know why Jewish men get circumcised?

Because Jewish women won't touch anything unless it's 20% off.
But then why do virtually all American men get circumcised too? Do they all want to tap some Jews?

America is controlled by Jews, c'mon.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 10, 2014, 05:42:58 PM
Heard a top quality Jew joke today and I thought I'd share.

Quote
You know why Jewish men get circumcised?

Because Jewish women won't touch anything unless it's 20% off.
But then why do virtually all American men get circumcised too? Do they all want to tap some Jews?

America is controlled by Jews, c'mon.

ROTFLMFAO ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 14, 2014, 12:27:53 AM
Is anybody alive?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Crudblud on November 14, 2014, 01:41:40 AM
Do you like classical music?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 14, 2014, 06:10:28 AM
Yes, I do.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Shane on November 14, 2014, 07:15:38 AM
Gr8
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Crudblud on November 14, 2014, 08:05:42 AM
Yes, I do.
Then we have something in common. Do you have any favourite composers/pieces/periods?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 14, 2014, 05:23:52 PM
are you I'm fond of classical music but I tend to prefer the 16 hundreds. I am particularly fond of Henry Purcell. my particular favorite piece is King Arthur the semi-opera.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 14, 2014, 05:27:50 PM
please pardon the unusual text. I am using voice recognition to speak these words into the communication. the system is not perfect. it is therefore stream of consciousness. if you speak unclearly it doesn't always get it. I apologize. I am starting to figure it out better. please do be patient with me and it will get more clear. thank you.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on November 14, 2014, 05:56:54 PM
So we can count on even more terrible quote parsing.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on November 14, 2014, 06:05:25 PM
Why can Jews not operate a forum?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 14, 2014, 06:06:45 PM
Oh, God no. I won't try to quote people when I am using my phone in that fashion! If I have to quote and I'm on my phone, I'll type it out the long and tedious way. And obviously, if I am on my computer, as I am now, then I shall type. But for simpler messages, the voice communication thing works pretty well, when you get the hang of it. Its just that you can't speak too quickly. Its rather funny to see what it does with words when you speak at a rapid pace!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 14, 2014, 06:11:53 PM
no I can imagine that attempting to quote would be totally disastrous. as it is I have to put in the periods manually. but it is quicker than typing especially on a phone's keyboard. I hope the system gets better. it would be nice to be able to write research papers in this manner. I am using the method now. at present I'm having no difficulty with it. of course punctuation and capitalization are not perfect. I could correct it manually but it would take too long. so the periods at the end of each sentence are clear enough. it is faster even than typing on a computer. but no you can't quote directly from a person.

Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Snupes on November 14, 2014, 06:18:37 PM
You can generally say "period" and it'll place one for you.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yonah ben Amittai on November 14, 2014, 07:46:42 PM
now that I did not know. that is very helpful to know however. Thank you for that information. Wow! can you do it with other punctuation points? yes, it seems you can! ok, this could get very interesting! Thank you very much, you have been very helpful. do have a most excellent day.

Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Crudblud on November 14, 2014, 10:58:37 PM
are you I'm fond of classical music but I tend to prefer the 16 hundreds. I am particularly fond of Henry Purcell. my particular favorite piece is King Arthur the semi-opera.
I like some Purcell (esp. Trio Sonatas), I'm not familiar with King Arthur, however. Any recordings you'd care to recommend?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spoon on November 15, 2014, 02:42:01 AM
Russian classical is best classical.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on November 15, 2014, 04:25:34 AM


Crudblood, one is particularly good, the Deller Consort and Choir, The Kings Musick, Alfred Deller directing. Its put out by Harmonia Mundi. GREAT STUFF! ABSOLUTELY GET THIS ONE! You will be totally carried away by it!

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on November 16, 2014, 12:17:59 AM
Do all Jews threaten lawsuits when things don't go their way?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on November 16, 2014, 12:26:17 AM
How much money do you expect to make off this totally legitimate lawsuit that you seem to be filing?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Crudblud on November 16, 2014, 12:36:07 AM


Crudblood, one is particularly good, the Deller Consort and Choir, The Kings Musick, Alfred Deller directing. Its put out by Harmonia Mundi. GREAT STUFF! ABSOLUTELY GET THIS ONE! You will be totally carried away by it!

Thanks, I'll check that one out.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: markjo on November 16, 2014, 03:31:48 AM
Do all Jews threaten lawsuits when things don't go their way?
Why else would there be so many Jewish lawyers?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on November 16, 2014, 06:46:14 AM
Do all Jews threaten lawsuits when things don't go their way?
Why else would there be so many Jewish lawyers?

Because there's a lot of money in law.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on November 29, 2014, 10:21:30 AM
Well, now we're back, and Thork, who should have been banned with me, one wonders what he's doing.  ADL-B'nai Brith is still analysing the situation. No decision has been made either way yet.

CRUDBLOOD, Thomas Arne, The Masque of Alfred is really awesome also. I just heard it for the first time. I have it on CD now. So how is everybody here?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on November 29, 2014, 02:55:16 PM
Well, now we're back, and Thork, who should have been banned with me, one wonders what he's doing.  ADL-B'nai Brith is still analysing the situation. No decision has been made either way yet.

Anne Frankly I did Nazi this coming.

I'm sure your Jew lawyers are secretly passing around your e-mail just to have a good laugh. "Look at this Jew, he isn't even a banking executive! Ahahaahha!"
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Snupes on November 29, 2014, 03:17:13 PM


Well, now we're back, and Thork, who should have been banned with me, one wonders what he's doing.  ADL-B'nai Brith is still analysing the situation. No decision has been made either way yet.

What is there to analyze, there's nothing they can do
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on November 29, 2014, 03:38:32 PM
Anne Frankly I did Nazi this coming.

I'm sure your Jew lawyers are secretly passing around your e-mail just to have a good laugh. "Look at this Jew, he isn't even a banking executive! Ahahaahha!"
Right, okay, he got banned, and now he's making dumb threats. That's no reason to keep taunting him. Please keep these sort of remarks to AR/CN.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 08, 2014, 02:56:27 PM
Well, I am back just in time to see the PM of Israel proposing to strengthen the Nationality Law of Israel. Israel has always been a Jewish and democratic State. However, to the present, it has always had nationality rights for its non-Jewish residents. Now, a proposed law would strip away nationality rights from all persons except Jews, although everyone would still retain individual civil rights.

What does this mean in practice? On an individual level, nothing. Each individual person would still be guaranteed the right to practice his or her beliefs or lack thereof and to reside in Israel as a citizen of it.

On a collective level, it means a lot. The status of the Holy Places would possibly change. Currently Temple Mount is administered by Muslims. Under a State that is officially Jewish, the Jewish Government might assume responsibility for it, which would be, well, messy. While guaranteeing rights for all persons to visit the place, irrespective of faith, if it became the responsibility of the Jewish State, this could be seen as an act of war by the Muslim world.

Aside from that, which I'll forgo for now, because I wouldn't be surprised if the State doesn't find a way around that, but I'll get back to it, there is more. A declaration that Israel is officially Jewish makes Jewish Law the inspiration for the nation's laws. It makes Judaism the official religion, and being Jewish the only nationality. If you belong to any other group, your nationality isn't recognised. You are on an individual level, but your ethnic group is not.

IN THEORY, this could go so far as to dismantle all Muslim and Christian religious Courts that currently hear family cases. In theory, although not likely in reality, it could render Muslim and Christian marriages invalid, and all other life acts undoable. Again, none of this is likely. The law is likely to have built-in safeguards to prohibit this.

In practice, what it will do will be to enshrine Hebrew as the official language. Currently Arabic also is official. What status it would have if this law passed is unclear. Decisions would be made about the National Symbols, the Flag, and the Anthem that would officialise what already exists.

What it will ALSO do is verify that Jewish Law is the inspiration for Israel's laws throughout Israel's borders. What it will NOT do is say what those borders are. I don't think one has to be a genius to figure out where that is going.

Regarding Temple Mount, who will run it? Presently, a Muslim Trust does. Would that change? Theoretically, yes. The Government would. But that changing would likewise bring about WWIII, or something almost equally disastrous. So...

The status of the Druze would be especially affected. They are a small Arab community that exists only in Israel (now). They have always been obedient to the Israeli State, submitting to the draft by choice, serving with distinction, and otherwise being a part of Israeli life. They would lose their nationality status if this law passes unamended.

Personally, I am in favour of the law, amended to recognise Druze nationality. If every single nation in the Middle East can use Sharia as the inspiration for a nation's laws, than surely Israel can do the same with Jewish law. and if people don't like it, they can pack their shit and leave. As far as the Holy Places, personally, I think the Government should take them, and remove the mosques currently desecrating Temple Mount rock by rock, and offer to reassemble them in Saudi Arabia in Medina, or Mecca. If this is refused, they should simply be demolished.

HOWEVER, and this is my big key word, I have to wonder at WHY this law is being proposed right now. It seems a particularly convenient time for Netanyahu to pop up with it now. It just seems like he is trying do it at a moment which could plunge the Middle East into even more chaos than it is already in.

On the other hand, if not now, when? You can procrastinate til the cows come home, and then what? So, there are arguments on both sides.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on December 08, 2014, 03:17:55 PM
Why do you not live in Israel?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on December 08, 2014, 04:07:24 PM
How heavy is your jew gold bag?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 08, 2014, 04:25:12 PM
QUOTE: "Why do you not live in Israel?" END QUOTE.

That is kind of a stupid question, and presupposes that the person asking the question completely misunderstands the very nature of what it means to be a Jew. Israel EXISTS for one reason, and one reason only, ultimately. I mean, there are many theological and practical and ethical and national and political and yada yada yada reasons why it exists, but ultimately, it exists to protect Jews from anti-Semitism. America exists to protect Americans, even if said American lives in Australia. As long as he is a citizen of the United States, he is afforded the protection of his government.

The only difference between Israel and any other State is that with Israel, every Jew is automatically considered a citizen of the State. I am afforded the protection of two nations by definition. One, I am afforded American protection by virtue of my birth and provenance. Two, I am afforded Israeli protection, should I choose to exercise it by going there, by virtue of my ethnoreligious status. To a limited degree, if I am mistreated in a country, I can theoretically request help from Israel without being there, although in practice this would be very limited help indeed, unless said help were with outright emigration TO Israel itself.

To a limited degree, this is mirrored by both Chinas, each government (in Beijing and in Taipei) having Ministries for Overseas Chinese Affairs. In theory, these Ministries are designed to protect the rights of any Chinese anywhere, although they are most effective in Asia. Obviously, a Chinese only uses one of them. It depends on the nation which he recognises, be it the People's Republic of China or the Republic of China.

The whole reason this Nationality Law has come up is BECAUSE the average Gentile has failed to comprehend that Jews ARE a nationality. For some stupid reason, we have been misdefined as a race (which is absurd, as Jews span the racial spectrum, from lightest white to darkest black and everything in between), strictly as a religion (which is also asinine, since the Religion of Judaism is simply the prevailing Religion of the Jewish People), or something other than what we truly are, which is a growing civilisation. Jews are a civilisation, of which Judaism is the strongest aspect. Any civililsation has a religion, its own folkways, its own languages, its own art, foods, etc.

Being Jewish is to be part of a civilisation, just as being Irish is. And just as being Irish is a nationality, so is being Jewish. The fact that most Irish are Catholic, and many other nationalities are Catholic, whereas Judaism is practiced only by the Jewish nationality, is an incident of history that is interesting, but not relevant to us being a nationality.

So, there you are. The fact is that there are 15 million Jews in the world, and 5 and a half million of them live in Israel. An equal number of them live in New York. The rest live in the United States, Russia, and various other parts of the world. Unless Israel gets A LOT bigger, it would be hard to fit 15 million people in it, even if they claimed Greater Israel, which they should, in my opinion (all of Israel, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights). With 5 and a half million JEWS living in Israel proper (meaning within the borders of 1967), and 8 and a half million PEOPLE total, you can see that a sizable population of Israel is not even Jewish. About 85% is Jewish, the remainder being Arab, mostly Muslim, with some Christian and some Druze.

This does not begin to discuss the population of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, although I think it does include all of Jerusalem and the Golan Heights. But the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are about 98% Arab Muslim. Now, where do you intend to put 15 million Jews, UNLESS you are prepared to deport every single Arab from Greater Israel with the exception of the Druze and possibly the Christians? Even after you do that, it might be a little hard to put EVERY single one of us there, although it might be possible. I would be willing to do that, but how many people would? Would the so-called "International Community" agree to remove all the Arab Muslims? That is the common sense answer. But most of the UN has its head in its collective ass, let's face it.

So, until you can get the UN to remove its head from its collective ass, I suggest you come up with a better solution, or cease to be critical.



Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on December 08, 2014, 05:34:16 PM
You didn't answer my question.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 08, 2014, 07:03:23 PM
You didn't answer my question.

The question didn't deserve an answer.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on December 08, 2014, 07:05:26 PM
You didn't answer my question.

The question didn't deserve an answer.

Then why did you reply to it? It's okay, you can admit you're not jewly enough for Israel. I'm sure they'll understand that you're not willing to fight for your god or heed the call to the holy land.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 08, 2014, 07:08:29 PM
I haven't had the opportunity, financially or otherwise, to immigrate. And my personal circumstances make it difficult or impossible to live there.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: juner on December 08, 2014, 07:20:01 PM
How heavy is your jew gold bag?

Take it to the lower fora, beardo.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on December 08, 2014, 07:22:12 PM
I haven't had the opportunity, financially or otherwise, to immigrate. And my personal circumstances make it difficult or impossible to live there.


It's not that expensive (http://www.travelocity.com/Flights-Search?trip=roundtrip&leg1=from:PHL,to:TLV,departure:12%2F22%2F2014TANYT&leg2=from:TLV,to:PHL,departure:12%2F29%2F2014TANYT&passengers=children:0,adults:1,seniors:0,infantinlap:Y&options=cabinclass:coach,nopenalty:N,sortby:price&mode=search&WA1=03010&WA2=tripadvisor.com&WA5=trave_air_dated_B1_|u&WA6=air). You could probably catch a flight during tax season.

Until then, you are not a real Jew. You're a faker.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on December 08, 2014, 07:26:45 PM
How heavy is your jew gold bag?

Take it to the lower fora, beardo.
This ain't it?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 08, 2014, 07:28:09 PM
I haven't had the opportunity, financially or otherwise, to immigrate. And my personal circumstances make it difficult or impossible to live there.


It's not that expensive (http://www.travelocity.com/Flights-Search?trip=roundtrip&leg1=from:PHL,to:TLV,departure:12%2F22%2F2014TANYT&leg2=from:TLV,to:PHL,departure:12%2F29%2F2014TANYT&passengers=children:0,adults:1,seniors:0,infantinlap:Y&options=cabinclass:coach,nopenalty:N,sortby:price&mode=search&WA1=03010&WA2=tripadvisor.com&WA5=trave_air_dated_B1_|u&WA6=air). You could probably catch a flight during tax season.

Its not the plane flight. Its the fact that living in Israel is extremely expensive, and I am not working at present, being on disability, although that is hopefully not permanent. Even when I do return to work, though, the fact remains that my wife is Lutheran. She is NOT going to agree to live in Israel deep in the heart of the Middle East. Living with one Jew, maybe. Living in a country of Jews, that is something yet again. Plus, she works, but would her education degree be recognised there? Probably not.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: juner on December 08, 2014, 07:30:11 PM
How heavy is your jew gold bag?

Take it to the lower fora, beardo.
This ain't it?

No, it isn't.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: spoon on December 08, 2014, 07:32:02 PM
So you reject god out of inconvenience?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on December 08, 2014, 07:32:17 PM
I haven't had the opportunity, financially or otherwise, to immigrate. And my personal circumstances make it difficult or impossible to live there.


It's not that expensive (http://www.travelocity.com/Flights-Search?trip=roundtrip&leg1=from:PHL,to:TLV,departure:12%2F22%2F2014TANYT&leg2=from:TLV,to:PHL,departure:12%2F29%2F2014TANYT&passengers=children:0,adults:1,seniors:0,infantinlap:Y&options=cabinclass:coach,nopenalty:N,sortby:price&mode=search&WA1=03010&WA2=tripadvisor.com&WA5=trave_air_dated_B1_|u&WA6=air). You could probably catch a flight during tax season.

Its not the plane flight. Its the fact that living in Israel is extremely expensive, and I am not working at present, being on disability, although that is hopefully not permanent. Even when I do return to work, though, the fact remains that my wife is Lutheran. She is NOT going to agree to live in Israel deep in the heart of the Middle East. Living with one Jew, maybe. Living in a country of Jews, that is something yet again. Plus, she works, but would her education degree be recognised there? Probably not.

You don't have to live there. I'm sure your wife would understand your motives for a short trip to Israel. If you are truly Jewish, like you say (not just playing one on the internet), then I'm sure she understands your deep conviction for the religion and wouldn't have a problem with you visiting. If she has a problem with it, then you married the wrong woman.

Also, Lutheran? How did this happen? Don't you realize that Judaism is against interfaith marriages? It goes as far to state that "the children of such marriages would be lost to Judaism". Why would you do this to your offspring?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on December 08, 2014, 07:36:03 PM
How heavy is your jew gold bag?

Take it to the lower fora, beardo.
This ain't it?

No, it isn't.
Is humour only allowed there though?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 08, 2014, 07:39:05 PM
SPOON, it has nothing to do with inconvenience. VAUX, as far as visiting, I agree with you. I will, or we will, one day visit. As to how I married a Lutheran, well, it was interesting. LONG story, but to make a long one short, I am a Traditional Jew, but not explicitly Orthodox. I am trans-denominational. And my wife and I are not having children. We married with my Rabbi's agreement. If we had been wanting children, the marriage would probably have never occurred.

Back to you, Spoon. Inconvenience is one thing. My wife being able to function as a human being is more than an inconvenience. She would be unable to work. I am presently unable to work. We could not survive in Israel. Like I said, of course we will visit. Or at least I will. But living there isn't practical.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 08, 2014, 07:39:53 PM
Its only humourous when it isn't offensive and degrading.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on December 08, 2014, 07:40:41 PM
SPOON, it has nothing to do with inconvenience. VAUX, as far as visiting, I agree with you. I will, or we will, one day visit. As to how I married a Lutheran, well, it was interesting. LONG story, but to make a long one short, I am a Traditional Jew, but not explicitly Orthodox. I am trans-denominational. And my wife and I are not having children. We married with my Rabbi's agreement. If we had been wanting children, the marriage would probably have never occurred.

Back to you, Spoon. Inconvenience is one thing. My wife being able to function as a human being is more than an inconvenience. She would be unable to work. I am presently unable to work. We could not survive in Israel. Like I said, of course we will visit. Or at least I will. But living there isn't practical.

You claim that you are on disability. What for?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 08, 2014, 07:45:48 PM
You claim that you are on disability. What for?

That is a rather personal question. But, what the hell. I had a heart attack at 35, five years ago. I have dangerously high blood pressure, an aneurism (sp?) that can't be fixed, and several other medical problems.

Up until about 6 years ago, I was in and out of mental hospitals on avg about twice a year for reasons of deep emotional troubles related to severe Bipolar Disorder with Psychosis. I am now on heavy medication and therapy which has kept me out of the hospital, but, combined with my medical problems, has made me unable to work.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on December 08, 2014, 07:46:29 PM
Have you tried yoga?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on December 08, 2014, 07:48:13 PM
I thought Israel was for Jews, not specifically rich Jews. Are you telling me rich Jews screw over other Jews too? That's pretty messed up.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 08, 2014, 07:50:12 PM
Have you tried yoga?

No. I am not flexible enough physically to be able to do so without serious injury. Like I said, I have many other medical troubles as well. Yoga would be very difficult for me at my age. I have a hard time even sitting on the floor and then standing up again.

IRUSH, no, I am NOT telling you that. I am telling you that Israel, like many countries, is an expensive place to live, just like California is much more expensive to live in than Iowa is.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: jroa on December 08, 2014, 07:55:17 PM
Have you tried yoga?

That is racist. 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 08, 2014, 07:56:40 PM
I don't know how asking about Yoga constitutes being racist, but ok.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on December 08, 2014, 07:58:09 PM
IRUSH, no, I am NOT telling you that. I am telling you that Israel, like many countries, is an expensive place to live, just like California is much more expensive to live in than Iowa is.

California gives a lot of free money to people, though. Does Israel not have any free money for Jews?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: jroa on December 08, 2014, 07:58:56 PM
Isn't Yoga a race, just like Jew?  I thought you were more open minded than this, Yaakov. 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 08, 2014, 08:08:30 PM
Actually, California does NOT give away free money. Alaska does. I am from California, and no, they don't. Israel actually does for the first six months of a Jew's residence there. But I may not be able to work in six months.

First off, Yoga is an exercise and does not refer to people. Second, if you had taken the time to READ my earlier posts, you would realise that Jews are not a race (since then come in all colours) but a nationality.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on December 08, 2014, 08:35:08 PM
Actually, California does NOT give away free money. Alaska does. I am from California, and no, they don't.

Actually, they do, "Jew" just happens to not be one of the qualifiers.

Israel actually does for the first six months of a Jew's residence there. But I may not be able to work in six months.

How can you say such a nation is civilized if they don't even offer disability benefits?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 08, 2014, 08:39:17 PM
If California does, they started doing that since I moved away, which is entirely possible. I left a long time ago. Israel does have disability benefits. But it would take a long time to qualify for them, I expect.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on December 11, 2014, 01:54:07 AM
Yaakov, how high did you score in CNN's annual Chanukah song quiz (http://games.cnn.com/quizzes-games?game=arkadiuminc14/the-chanukah-song-quiz)?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 11, 2014, 03:13:02 AM
Only five of eleven. I really know very little about show business in any form.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 10, 2015, 12:26:32 AM
So, what's going on here lately? I haven't been around much.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on February 10, 2015, 12:29:38 AM
How goes the lawsuit? Should we be prepared to give up all of our FES monies?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on February 10, 2015, 01:02:50 AM
So, what's going on here lately? I haven't been around much.

We have all been preparing for your impending lawsuit. We have been expecting contact from your jew lawyers but sadly have not heard from anyone.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on February 10, 2015, 01:34:32 AM
The FES was also unsuccessfully sued by a group of Moonies who thought moo shrimp were poking fun at their super respectable religion. If your lawyers are planning that case, tell them it is a dead end.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 10, 2015, 03:37:34 AM
*GRIN* Had you guys. I had my fun. You thought I was serious. On a more serious note, though, what is going on here?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 10, 2015, 03:48:35 AM
Damn, so, questions of rappers being prosecuted for hate music (I agree with the opinion that they should be prosecuted just for being rappers; what they say is irrelevant ;D ).

Of course, the world is a different place than it was three months ago when I was here last. The Coward in Chief is letting men get burned alive and doing NOTHING about it, a little country like Jordan is having to show us how to do our job in the world, if that ain't the shit... Israel's up to its neck in election politics... Bibi will probably win, just because he is going to make our Coward in Chief look like the ass that he is, but its a damn shame that we don't have a real leader, and we have to depend on the likes of John Boehner, who is really a bit of an idiot, but at least has more balls than O'bozo does, G-d, what a mess.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on February 10, 2015, 05:36:11 AM
Are you a banker?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on February 10, 2015, 07:37:58 AM
The Coward in Chief is letting men get burned alive and doing NOTHING about it, a little country like Jordan is having to show us how to do our job in the world, if that ain't the shit

No, just no.

Quote from: Wikipedia
On 15 January 2015, it was reported that over 16,000 airstrikes had been carried out by the Coalition. The U.S. Air Force has carried out around 60 percent of all strikes. Among them, F-16 performed 41 percent of all sorties, followed by the F-15E at 37 percent, then the A-10 at 11 percent, the B-1 bomber at eight percent, and the F-22 at 3 percent. The remaining 40 percent has been carried out by the US Navy and allied nations.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 10, 2015, 11:31:12 AM
Yeah, just, yeah. The IS has made it clear that the "surgical strikes" that the Coward in Chief has been launching have had little to no affect on its operations. What we need to do is go Dresden on the bastards. Go in there with bombers and carpet bomb the whole area under their control, killing every thing and every one in the area. Israel needs to do the same thing in the Gaza Strip and eliminate Hamas. The only way you deal with terrorists is to destroy them and their support base. EVERY SINGLE PERSON AND THING within the target area must be eliminated. CARTAGO DELENDA EST! Cato the Elder said that. He was right then. Rome followed his advice. Are we smart enough to follow that advice today? I wonder.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on February 10, 2015, 11:47:47 AM
Yeah, just, yeah. The IS has made it clear that the "surgical strikes" that the Coward in Chief has been launching have had little to no affect on its operations. What we need to do is go Dresden on the bastards. Go in there with bombers and carpet bomb the whole area under their control, killing every thing and every one in the area. Israel needs to do the same thing in the Gaza Strip and eliminate Hamas. The only way you deal with terrorists is to destroy them and their support base. EVERY SINGLE PERSON AND THING within the target area must be eliminated. CARTAGO DELENDA EST! Cato the Elder said that. He was right then. Rome followed his advice. Are we smart enough to follow that advice today? I wonder.

Fortunately no.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 10, 2015, 11:51:53 AM
Then, you, my friend, will one day see yourself forced into Sharia. Enjoy. Either that or the rest of us will have to save your sorry butt. Don't worry. We will do your job for you, since you are too incompetent to do it yourself. We will incinerate the filthy animals ourselves.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on February 10, 2015, 01:36:00 PM
No one missed you at all.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on February 10, 2015, 02:03:56 PM
My question was ignored.  :'(
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: mathsman on February 10, 2015, 02:20:40 PM
Then, you, my friend, will one day see yourself forced into Sharia. Enjoy. Either that or the rest of us will have to save your sorry butt. Don't worry. We will do your job for you, since you are too incompetent to do it yourself. We will incinerate the filthy animals ourselves.

How will you do that, Yaakov?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on February 10, 2015, 02:24:51 PM
Then, you, my friend, will one day see yourself forced into Sharia. Enjoy. Either that or the rest of us will have to save your sorry butt. Don't worry. We will do your job for you, since you are too incompetent to do it yourself. We will incinerate the filthy animals ourselves.

How will you do that, Yaakov?

Considering he claims to have severe health issues, he is not saving anyone, but instead criticizes from his keyboard.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 10, 2015, 02:49:19 PM
Obozo was never military either, and yet he claims to know how to lead them, idiot libtard that he is. He should be arrested for high crimes and misdemeanours at the very least. I won't prescribe punishment. But any American leader who allows the Arabs a leg up on the United States is either one, a traitor, or two, so woefully ignorant that he never took history classes. I'll bet in Obozo's case it is the first.

And no, I am not a banker. Sorry, not good with money. I leave matters like that up to my wife. I have to go. I'll be back later in the day, I have more important things to do than hang out here now. But visiting is occasionally fun, especially so I can watch you all trip while you try to defend terrorists like IS and morons like Obozo.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on February 10, 2015, 03:15:59 PM
Ok bye!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on February 10, 2015, 03:49:06 PM
Then, you, my friend, will one day see yourself forced into Sharia. Enjoy. Either that or the rest of us will have to save your sorry butt. Don't worry. We will do your job for you, since you are too incompetent to do it yourself. We will incinerate the filthy animals ourselves.

Adolf Hitler 2: Electric Boogaloo
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on February 10, 2015, 05:45:57 PM
Adolf Hitler 2: Electric Boogaloo

Hitler did nothing wrong.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on February 10, 2015, 05:52:13 PM
(https://stopobamanowsd.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/hitler-gott.jpg)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: jroa on February 10, 2015, 06:17:59 PM
Please, let's stop with the low content just for being antisemitic posts.  Thanks. 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 10, 2015, 06:48:52 PM
Cartago delenda est.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on February 10, 2015, 07:08:24 PM
Would it be offensive to wear a bumper sticker that says "I love kikes"?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on February 10, 2015, 07:24:29 PM
Would it be offensive to wear a bumper sticker that says "I love kikes"?

I don't see how that would be offensive.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 10, 2015, 07:40:42 PM
Cartago delenda est. Of course, if you hate Jews so much, we'll gladly take back our contributions to Western Civilisation, and leave you all a bunch of Greek god worshiping boy loving pedophiles. Since that was basically standard in Greece, and became the standard in Rome, we'll gladly leave you all. Without our contributions, you would all still be humping your boys, and considering it the norm, and considering women to be "misbegotten males", as Aristotle put it.

And of course, since you love your Muslims so much, we'll gladly take back the Salk vaccine, and the other benefits Jews and Israel have conferred on the West. Oh, Mr. Hawking, we'll take back that talk machine you use, since you hate Israel so much, and it was invented there. That will shut you up, and we won't have to listen to your stupidity.

You can have Muslims, and the blessings they have conferred on the West, which, other than for about two centuries in the Middle Ages, have  amounted to better ways to blow people up. Oh, and we'll make sure that the Ottoman Empire's order NOT to allow the printing press in 1455 when it arrived there, well, we'll make sure that is guaranteed to be obeyed throughout the West. The printing press wasn't allowed until the 19th Century, which is why so many Muslims are illiterate and stupid even today. We'll just spread that around, since you are so fond of the "Religion of Peace".

And since 20% of all Nobel Prizes have been won by 2% of the population (namely, Jews), we'll just take all the advances that have been given to the world by Jews and go home, and keep them to ourselves. We'll let you have the savagery of Islam.  Let's see, about 1 billion Muslims have won exactly 2 Nobel Prizes. One in Literature in the late '60's, and one in Peace this last year. Such a stellar record! Christians have got the rest.

Of course, I am sure that if you added a few categories, like "How to Make a Better IED", or "How to Raise a Suicide Bomber", or "How to Train Terrorists in Hamas Training Camps for Children", why, the Muslims would probably become leaders of the pack in earning Nobel Prizes!

And of course, the reason Christians are what they are is because of us. the first 2/3 of the Christian Bible is the so-called "Old Testament", ie, the Jewish Bible. If it were not for us, Christianity would not exist. So, that is another thing we can take credit for. Their accomplishments are basically ours.

Hell, even Islam ultimately derives itself from Abraham of the Torah. So any good that comes out of Islam is a result of us. Any bad is a result of them perverting it.

But we are more than happy to take our contributions to civilisation and go. You are welcome to become a bunch of boy-ass humping pedophilic decadent pigs. Enjoy watching your civilisation collapse within a hundred years without us.

CARTAGO DELENDA EST.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on February 10, 2015, 09:07:43 PM
I don't think there is anyone here that will still fall for this schtick.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 10, 2015, 09:09:30 PM
You can't argue with facts. Prove ONE thing I said wrong. ONE thing. Put up, or STFU.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on February 10, 2015, 09:10:27 PM
I've missed this.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on February 10, 2015, 09:13:22 PM
Face it, yackoff, the glory days of fes entertaining you for 70 pages are over. Don't spoil your feat by beating a dead horse. Think of a different topic.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 10, 2015, 09:15:00 PM
Come now, IRUSH, prove me wrong, or go hump the nearest 10 year old.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on February 10, 2015, 09:22:02 PM
I am Jewish, ask me anything.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on February 10, 2015, 09:39:00 PM
I am Jewish, ask me anything.
Are you a banker?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Thork on February 10, 2015, 09:43:09 PM
Enjoy watching your civilisation collapse within a hundred years without us.
Indeed. You'll all be checked out by then.
http://joi.org/bloglinks/New%20Evidence%20Of%20A%20Jewish%20Decline.htm
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on February 10, 2015, 09:47:02 PM
I am Jewish, ask me anything.
Are you a banker?
No, but I am a bookkeeper, so I am good with my money.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on February 10, 2015, 09:48:05 PM
I am Jewish, ask me anything.
Are you a banker?
No, but I am a bookkeeper, so I am good with my money.

Well, at least you're better at being a Jew than Yackoff.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 10, 2015, 09:50:42 PM
For your sake, your civilisation had better hope the figures change. Without us, America doesn't stand a chance. Its a symbiotic relationship, really. But without us, ALL of Western Civilisation comes crashing down around its ears. Without you, we would survive. Very differently, yes. But we would still be here.

Blanko, since he's not religious, he doesn't count as a Jew except halachically. Which doesn't count for much.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on February 10, 2015, 09:54:26 PM
Blanko, since he's not religious, he doesn't count as a Jew except halachically. Which doesn't count for much.

Actually, it does count for a lot. What's the point in being a Jew if you're not important?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 10, 2015, 09:57:38 PM
Cultural Jews are essentially traitors to Judaism. Let's face it. They would not fight for it if asked, and all too often, they are the chief apologists for the so-called "Religion of Peace" and the so-called "Palestinians". Unfortunately, you can't drain their blood out of them. They are Jews, even if they are terrible Jews. But don't expect them to help you if you are in need, and never turn your back on them if you are an Observant Jew. They are dangerous, and must be watched at all times.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on February 10, 2015, 10:01:03 PM
How amusing. You talk about what a significance these "cultural Jews" have made to Western culture, yet now you say they're dangerous? Perhaps you should reconsider your earlier statements. Maybe if these Jews were to actually withdraw into their own society, they wouldn't want you to have anything to do with it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 10, 2015, 10:03:28 PM
Yes, they have been significant. But they ultimately depended on religious Jews for their genesis. They are Jews, I don't dispute that. The best thing to do is to try to make religious Jews out of them. But until then, watch them. And always remember that if it weren't for the religious Jew, the cultural Jew would not exist.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on February 10, 2015, 10:04:37 PM
So those are the evil bankers?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on February 10, 2015, 10:05:54 PM
Well, it seems to me like the one thing successful Jews have in common is that they've abandoned their religious practices. Why do you think that is?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on February 10, 2015, 10:07:41 PM
So those are the evil bankers?

I am not evil, I just don't care much for the religious Jews.  They make parties really awkward, not just for their intense hatred that they never shy away from professing, but also for their terrible hygiene.

I love shaking the Hasidic wive's hands when they are not paying attention though.  The look on their face...
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on February 10, 2015, 10:08:20 PM
Well, it seems to me like the one thing successful Jews have in common is that they've abandoned their religious practices. Why do you think that is?

Religion can only serve as a barrier to a larger society since it depends on defining the differences between people.  Good question!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 10, 2015, 10:17:57 PM
I wouldn't necessarily say that. Evil finds its way everywhere, among the religious and the non-, among the Jew and the Goy, among the White and Black. I've known plenty of rich assholes in my day, occasionally Jewish, most often Goyim. How many of them were bankers? A couple.

I know you think you are being funny. But I am taking the question seriously. The reason Jews are so good with money is that for five hundred years we were legally allowed two professions, insofar as we interacted with the Goy population: on a small scale, we could fix up and sell used objects, and on a large scale, the wealthy Jews could lend money at interest. Since Christians were not allowed to do this, and someone needed to, to begin a Capitalist society, they let us do it. After 500 years, you tend to get good at the only two professions you are allowed to do.

But the number of Jews involved in banking is actually very low. Now, you want a profession loaded with Jews, go talk to your psychiatrist. He is probably a Jew. A shit-ton of them are. Also, scientists in general are. But banking, only occasionally. Its just that the Jewish names tend to be a lot more noticeable than say "Parker".

I know plenty of religious Jews that are successful lawyers and many other high power professions. And if you are meeting religious Jews that spew hatred (aside from against the "Religion of Peace", which any sane human should hate), then it sounds like you need to go to a different synagogue.

Most of the religious Jews I know are VERY successful financially. I don't know where you meet people.

As far as hygiene, Judaism is a religion that emphasises cleanliness, hence the need to be washing your hands constantly, You are evidently poorly informed. Either you are not a Jew at all, or you are incredibly ignorant, which can be corrected by education, or incredibly low in IQ, which can't. I shall assume the second. I have to go at the moment, but we'll chat when I get back.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on February 10, 2015, 10:19:39 PM
Did you have something to ask a Jew?  That is the point of this thread.  Please stop derailing.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on February 10, 2015, 11:49:42 PM
Yeah, just, yeah. The IS has made it clear that the "surgical strikes" that the Coward in Chief has been launching have had little to no affect on its operations. What we need to do is go Dresden on the bastards. Go in there with bombers and carpet bomb the whole area under their control, killing every thing and every one in the area. Israel needs to do the same thing in the Gaza Strip and eliminate Hamas. The only way you deal with terrorists is to destroy them and their support base. EVERY SINGLE PERSON AND THING within the target area must be eliminated. CARTAGO DELENDA EST! Cato the Elder said that. He was right then. Rome followed his advice. Are we smart enough to follow that advice today? I wonder.

Besides reducing their financial position to shit? Destroying huge allotments of their shitty vehicles? Having them waste extremely valuable MANPADS on US jets with no effect? Nullifying their tanks, their AAA, their armoured presence?

You mean to tell me you're going to listen to the boasting of some halfwit commander over our own sources? Don't you hate the muzzies? Do you realise that ISIS controls large populated areas, like Mosul? Carpet bombing that would be a huge crime against humanity, especially in the age of PGM's.

I know reading isn't your strong suit, but Jews of all people should comprehend the effectiveness of bombing terrorist groups. Or maybe not, given Israel consistently misses their targets.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on February 11, 2015, 12:39:07 AM
Vindictus is all in.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on February 11, 2015, 01:26:09 AM
Face it, yackoff, the glory days of fes entertaining you for 70 pages are over. Don't spoil your feat by beating a dead horse. Think of a different topic.

"Rushy said we're not going to fall for this again, let's prove him wrong!" Haha, guys. Good one.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 11, 2015, 04:21:29 AM
CARTAGO DELENDA EST. Perhaps I wasn't clear. I meant kill every living thing in the territory controlled by them. Down to the smallest Rabbit. Turn it into a sea of green glass slag. Do the same with the Gaza Strip. Then inform the rest of the Muslims in the world that the same thing will happen to them if they don't surrender their nations in 24 hours and do exactly what they are told, when they are told, how they are told. It worked with Germany and Japan. It should certainly work with ISIS and Gaza.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on February 11, 2015, 05:29:44 AM
Face it, yackoff, the glory days of fes entertaining you for 70 pages are over. Don't spoil your feat by beating a dead horse. Think of a different topic.

"Rushy said we're not going to fall for this again, let's prove him wrong!" Haha, guys. Good one.

jews jewing jews
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 11, 2015, 05:38:17 AM
VINDICTUS, the anti-Semitic Nazi.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on February 11, 2015, 08:02:19 AM
It's true, I am hitlerally litler
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on February 11, 2015, 08:37:02 AM
(https://rehmat1.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/freedomofspeech1.jpg)

Is this true?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on February 11, 2015, 08:38:13 AM
No. You get shot if you draw Muslim prophets.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on February 11, 2015, 08:42:01 AM
Not by the western media. Did you not see how it says The West on the black sleeve? And how do you know that's a drawing of a muslim prophet? It just says Muslims, not Muhammad or whatever.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on February 11, 2015, 08:47:53 AM
Yaakov, what do you think of Jerusalem Syndrome (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_syndrome)?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: mathsman on February 11, 2015, 09:46:50 AM
Cartago delenda est. Of course, if you hate Jews so much, we'll gladly take back our contributions to Western Civilisation, and leave you all a bunch of Greek god worshiping boy loving pedophiles. Since that was basically standard in Greece, and became the standard in Rome, we'll gladly leave you all. Without our contributions, you would all still be humping your boys, and considering it the norm, and considering women to be "misbegotten males", as Aristotle put it.

And of course, since you love your Muslims so much, we'll gladly take back the Salk vaccine, and the other benefits Jews and Israel have conferred on the West. Oh, Mr. Hawking, we'll take back that talk machine you use, since you hate Israel so much, and it was invented there. That will shut you up, and we won't have to listen to your stupidity.

You can have Muslims, and the blessings they have conferred on the West, which, other than for about two centuries in the Middle Ages, have  amounted to better ways to blow people up. Oh, and we'll make sure that the Ottoman Empire's order NOT to allow the printing press in 1455 when it arrived there, well, we'll make sure that is guaranteed to be obeyed throughout the West. The printing press wasn't allowed until the 19th Century, which is why so many Muslims are illiterate and stupid even today. We'll just spread that around, since you are so fond of the "Religion of Peace".

And since 20% of all Nobel Prizes have been won by 2% of the population (namely, Jews), we'll just take all the advances that have been given to the world by Jews and go home, and keep them to ourselves. We'll let you have the savagery of Islam.  Let's see, about 1 billion Muslims have won exactly 2 Nobel Prizes. One in Literature in the late '60's, and one in Peace this last year. Such a stellar record! Christians have got the rest.

Of course, I am sure that if you added a few categories, like "How to Make a Better IED", or "How to Raise a Suicide Bomber", or "How to Train Terrorists in Hamas Training Camps for Children", why, the Muslims would probably become leaders of the pack in earning Nobel Prizes!

And of course, the reason Christians are what they are is because of us. the first 2/3 of the Christian Bible is the so-called "Old Testament", ie, the Jewish Bible. If it were not for us, Christianity would not exist. So, that is another thing we can take credit for. Their accomplishments are basically ours.

Hell, even Islam ultimately derives itself from Abraham of the Torah. So any good that comes out of Islam is a result of us. Any bad is a result of them perverting it.

But we are more than happy to take our contributions to civilisation and go. You are welcome to become a bunch of boy-ass humping pedophilic decadent pigs. Enjoy watching your civilisation collapse within a hundred years without us.

CARTAGO DELENDA EST.

Yaakov, may I ask what you have contributed to western civilisation? It seems like you're taking credit for the achievements of others.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 11, 2015, 11:49:25 AM
MATHSMAN, what does any one person contribute? What have you offered the world lately?

 Re: Jerusalem Syndrome, it is a noted psychiatric illness that has affected people. There is a hospital in Jerusalem dedicated strictly to its treatment, that accepts no other patients.

Re: the question of Jewish sensitivity toward anti-Semitism, that is sometimes true. Then again, if you had been beaten around for 2,000 years, you probably would be a bit sensitive also. And who cares what Muslims think about anything?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: mathsman on February 11, 2015, 12:56:05 PM
MATHSMAN, what does any one person contribute? What have you offered the world lately?

 Re: Jerusalem Syndrome, it is a noted psychiatric illness that has affected people. There is a hospital in Jerusalem dedicated strictly to its treatment, that accepts no other patients.

Re: the question of Jewish sensitivity toward anti-Semitism, that is sometimes true. Then again, if you had been beaten around for 2,000 years, you probably would be a bit sensitive also. And who cares what Muslims think about anything?

I'm not bright enough to offer the world anything of significance; but I am wise enough to know that just because I am a member of a class, a group, a race, a nation, a religion or any collection of human beings, I should not regard the collection's achievements as something I can boast about. Empty boasts are the products of nasty little supremacists.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 11, 2015, 01:57:47 PM
MATHSMAN, if you are not proud of being a part of the group of which you ARE a part, then you are a fool. And yes, I do believe that Jews and Judaism are superior in some ways to other persons and groups. if they weren't, there would be no reason to remain loyal to the group dynamic. Now, that doesn't give me license to go do horrible things in the name of the group (aside from self defence, which is why it is so important to attack Gaza and put an end to terrorism from that corner), but it certainly gives me the right to be proud of the accomplishments of the group.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on February 11, 2015, 02:02:32 PM
MATHSMAN, if you are not proud of being a part of the group of which you ARE a part, then you are a fool.

But you're not a part of that group. Observant Jews haven't accomplished anything of significance. You pretty much said so yourself.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 11, 2015, 02:10:48 PM
Actually, I never said that. Observant Jews have accomplished a great deal. Like the Hebrew Bible, which is a massive half of Western Civilisation (you would all be boy-ass loving Greek god worshipers without it). The entire concept of Western Justice comes from the Hebrew Bible. The entire New Testament, the bedrock of Western Civilisation would not exist without the Observant Jews.

Non-Observant Jews have accomplished things too, I don't dispute that. But they exist because of us.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on February 11, 2015, 02:14:59 PM
Yaakov, since you are taking credit for Christianities accomplishments you should, on your own view, take responsibility for Islam's. Both spawned from Judaism after all.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on February 11, 2015, 02:16:05 PM
Actually, I never said that. Observant Jews have accomplished a great deal. Like the Hebrew Bible, which is a massive half of Western Civilisation (you would all be boy-ass loving Greek god worshipers without it). The entire concept of Western Justice comes from the Hebrew Bible. The entire New Testament, the bedrock of Western Civilisation would not exist without the Observant Jews.

Non-Observant Jews have accomplished things too, I don't dispute that. But they exist because of us.

No law class I have ever taken has cited Judaism as the bedrock of Western Justice.  It goes Code of Hammurabi-Magna Carta.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on February 11, 2015, 02:19:25 PM
Actually, I never said that. Observant Jews have accomplished a great deal. Like the Hebrew Bible, which is a massive half of Western Civilisation (you would all be boy-ass loving Greek god worshipers without it). The entire concept of Western Justice comes from the Hebrew Bible. The entire New Testament, the bedrock of Western Civilisation would not exist without the Observant Jews.

Non-Observant Jews have accomplished things too, I don't dispute that. But they exist because of us.

You're taking credit for people who abandoned your beliefs, not who enforced them. Clearly, it's thanks to Judaism not being observed that the Western civilisation is such a success.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 11, 2015, 02:21:42 PM
I already did. Anything good that came out of Islam is because of Judaism. Anything shitty about it is because they perverted Judaism. I said that several posts ago. I've taken some Law myself, and I don't where you studied for it not to cite Mosaic Law as a major influence on Western Civilisation. Probably one of the liberal state schools. Even on the Supreme Court, they have an image of Moses (hell, they even have one of Mohammed) as one of the great lawmakers that contributed to civilisation and its laws. No one knows what these men looked like, so the images are guesses, but they are there.

How many courtrooms had copies of the Ten Commandments in them until our fucked up country forbade it (for which our leaders should have been arrested and sent to work on pig farms, in my opinion)? Try to tell me that Judaism has no relevance as a source of law?Please.

And the fact that non-Observant Jews have accomplished some things is beside the point. Most of the things they have accomplished have had nothing to do with religion one way or another, and could have been accomplished one way or another. Religion has had nothing to do with it. So you can't say that it wouldn't have been accomplished with Judaism. But it can be said that WITHOUT Judaism, Mosaic Law would't have existed to give rise to the West.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on February 11, 2015, 02:24:20 PM
What it is about this character that makes you guys throw yourselves at him and flail about angrily?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on February 11, 2015, 02:31:30 PM
And the fact that non-Observant Jews have accomplished some things is beside the point. Most of the things they have accomplished have had nothing to do with religion one way or another, and could have been accomplished one way or another. Religion has had nothing to do with it. So you can't say that it wouldn't have been accomplished with Judaism. But it can be said that WITHOUT Judaism, Mosaic Law would't have existed to give rise to the West.

Well, even if that's true, Judaism can safely stop existing in the present day, and nothing would be missed. All those Jewish accomplishments you've been talking about have really been due to perversion of Judaism. If Mosaic law is the only thing you can actually take credit for, then perhaps it could be said that the West is only in the shape it is due to having perverted Judaism from the get-go.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 11, 2015, 02:37:38 PM
I rush, what are you, high? BLANKO, I am certain you are high. In my city, without the few Jews that live here, the population of doctors, psychiatrists, and attorneys alone would decline by about 50%. And I am talking about Jews who consider themselves part of the Jewish Community and go to shul at least occasionally. You goyim wouldn't be able to get healthy, stay out of the nut wards, or stay out of jail without us. And my city is NOT a place wherein Jews are here in large numbers. If we stopped existing today in New York, Goyim would be royally fucked.

EDIT:

Got to go. Its been fun. I'll be back later, I am sure. Ciao for now.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on February 11, 2015, 02:47:05 PM
It's not difficult to replace you. How many observant Jews do you think there are? I'm sure you'd agree that most present-day Jews in the US aren't actually observant. A whole lot of you fucked off to Israel already, and it doesn't seem to have made any difference. Well, except to the people whose land they took, I guess.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on February 11, 2015, 03:30:02 PM
I seriously doubt most Finnish doctors are jews.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on February 11, 2015, 03:35:56 PM
Nobody cares about your shit hipster country, beardo.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on February 11, 2015, 03:45:54 PM
I met a Jew in New York once and she was insane. QED.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on February 11, 2015, 03:50:55 PM
I already did. Anything good that came out of Islam is because of Judaism. Anything shitty about it is because they perverted Judaism.


How convenient.  Tell me more.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 11, 2015, 04:27:59 PM
Finland is actually a cool country. They have a very good social welfare system, and Internet is considered a constitutional right of the citizens. Re: Finnish doctors being Jews, I expect you are right, BEARDO, because there aren't that many Jews in Finland! I don't recall that we ever got quite THAT far north! I think that there is only a tiny number of us there.

I just checked. There are 1500 Jews in Finland today. During WWII, although Finland was fighting the USSR, as was Germany, only 22 Finnish Jews died, all fighting the USSR. No Jews were handed to the Nazis. When the Nazis asked for the Finnish Jews, they were told by the Finnish Government and the (Lutheran) Church of Finland to fuck off.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on February 11, 2015, 05:40:01 PM
I seriously doubt most Finnish doctors are jews.

You're right. They're all death metal atheists.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on February 11, 2015, 09:38:47 PM
White people contributed the most to civilization, not sand people. If any Jews did anything good it was because they were white, if a white Jew committed any atrocity it was because of their dumb religion.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 12, 2015, 04:48:30 AM
The only reason white people in Europe accomplished anything was due to Judaism. While your ancestors were savaging about in some ungodly part of Europe, or butt-humping boys in ancient Greece, mine were Priests to the Temple of Solomon. Oh, and, don't start on the 'lack of archaeological evidence' shit. The fact that they felt the need to return from captivity to build another is evidence of the first. Throw in the fact that Samaritans exist, still sacricificing on Mt. Gerizim, and you see the earliest schism between Jews and non-Jews. And remember Jesus saying: salvation is of the Jews.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on February 12, 2015, 07:48:19 AM
Actually, the only reason white people accomplished anything is due to the Mongols.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on February 12, 2015, 07:56:50 AM
The only reason white people in Europe accomplished anything was due to Judaism. While your ancestors were savaging about in some ungodly part of Europe, or butt-humping boys in ancient Greece, mine were Priests to the Temple of Solomon.
How did the fact that your people were priests in the Temple of Solomon help white people accomplish things?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Hoppy on February 12, 2015, 01:35:14 PM
The only reason white people in Europe accomplished anything was due to Judaism. While your ancestors were savaging about in some ungodly part of Europe, or butt-humping boys in ancient Greece, mine were Priests to the Temple of Solomon. Oh, and, don't start on the 'lack of archaeological evidence' shit. The fact that they felt the need to return from captivity to build another is evidence of the first. Throw in the fact that Samaritans exist, still sacricificing on Mt. Gerizim, and you see the earliest schism between Jews and non-Jews. And remember Jesus saying: salvation is of the Jews.
So now you believe the preaching of Jesus?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on February 12, 2015, 01:46:10 PM
The only reason white people in Europe accomplished anything was due to Judaism. While your ancestors were savaging about in some ungodly part of Europe, or butt-humping boys in ancient Greece, mine were Priests to the Temple of Solomon.
How did the fact that your people were priests in the Temple of Solomon help white people accomplish things?

Without them, we probably wouldn't have the priestly class in Catholicism and thus no Father Ted. The entire history and purpose of Judaism was to inspire a Channel 4 sitcom.
(http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTU3MTczNzQwMV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwNDg5NDEzMQ@@._V1_SX640_SY720_.jpg)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on February 12, 2015, 01:56:37 PM
The only reason white people in Europe accomplished anything was due to Judaism. While your ancestors were savaging about in some ungodly part of Europe, or butt-humping boys in ancient Greece, mine were Priests to the Temple of Solomon.
How did the fact that your people were priests in the Temple of Solomon help white people accomplish things?

Without them, we probably wouldn't have the priestly class in Catholicism and thus no Father Ted. The entire history and purpose of Judaism was to inspire a Channel 4 sitcom.
(http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTU3MTczNzQwMV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwNDg5NDEzMQ@@._V1_SX640_SY720_.jpg)
I see. Most enlightening.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 12, 2015, 02:12:54 PM
I did NOT say I believed in Jesus. But in fact, he was a Jewish Rabbi, who was for the most part Orthodox (as the term would be used today). Christians perverted his message into something almost unrecognisable, but then, that's not surprising. Had the Church remained predominantly Jewish, that might not have happened, but instead, it became dominantly Goy in composition.

If you read the so called 'New Testament' carefully, you can strain out the parts that are most likely to have actually happened, since Jesus was in fact a Jew. The rest of it (like most of Paul's crap) can be eliminated. Most of Paul, of course, does not concern events so much as it does ideas.

Now Paul may have been a Jew, but his father had been given Roman citizenship for undetermined services rendered to the Roman Imperial State. Paul inherited this. And in many ways, when you read his work, he was a far better Roman philosphically than he was a Jew. So his work screwed the Church permanently.

Jesus himself often spoke of the superiority of the Jews in salvation matters. Another example of this is when he tells the woman that it is not meet to take food from the children and give it to dogs. She then says that even dogs eat of the crumbs. He agrees and sends her away whole.

He also says more than once that he is sent to Israel first. Its not a question then, of believing or not believing in Jesus. Its a question of believing or not believing the 'New Testament' and all the pagan nonsense that infests it. Was Jesus anything more than just a regular Rabbi? No.

What being a Priest to the Temple means is just comparing the quality of civilisation, that is all. You have your Priests to the Temple and the glorious services to G-d and then you have the boy loving, butt-humping, pagan Greeks and Romans. Take your pick.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on February 12, 2015, 02:17:03 PM
And while the priests may have been priests, what did the rest of the Jews do?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on February 12, 2015, 03:54:42 PM
If you read the so called 'New Testament' carefully, you can strain out the parts that are most likely to have actually happened, since Jesus was in fact a Jew.
You're right. It's equally easy to strain out the likely true parts from the Old Testament, too. All you need to do is look out your window and chuck that poorly written piece of crap out.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on February 12, 2015, 05:17:31 PM
The only reason white people in Europe accomplished anything was due to Judaism. While your ancestors were savaging about in some ungodly part of Europe, or butt-humping boys in ancient Greece, mine were Priests to the Temple of Solomon. Oh, and, don't start on the 'lack of archaeological evidence' shit. The fact that they felt the need to return from captivity to build another is evidence of the first. Throw in the fact that Samaritans exist, still sacricificing on Mt. Gerizim, and you see the earliest schism between Jews and non-Jews. And remember Jesus saying: salvation is of the Jews.

The only reason Judaism ever accomplished anything was due to white people. Only white Jews are successful, the other Jews attributed nothing to society and still don't, to this very day.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 12, 2015, 08:13:40 PM
That depends on how you define whiteness. The so called "Arab Jews", ie, the Jews of the Arab world (nearly all of whom left Arab countries wherein they had lived for centuries and now live in Israel) were, like European Jews, the most advanced of the cultures in which they lived. Since Middle Easterners are considered "Caucasian", you have to be careful with the term "White". The term "Caucasian" applies to anybody from Europe, the Middle East, Persia, Afghanistan, and parts of India. And yet most people would not use the term 'White" to apply to all those people, although many would be classified as such by their own people in many ways (for example, the Brahmins of Northern India tend to be very light complected compared to other Indians).

Clearly an Ethiopic Jew is not White, or even Caucasian, that much is obvious. And yet, Ethiopia speaks a Semitic language. And the Jews there, although they are Negro, carry the same DNA as a European Jew or an Iraqi Jew, and the Cohanim among them do the same. And of course, the Solomonic Dynasty that ended with Haile Salassie (there are descendants of course), is in fact related to King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba.

Anyone who calls the Hebrew Bible poorly written doesn't have a brain between their ears. It "only" contains some of the most exalted language on the planet. This has been acknowledged by believer and non-believer alike.  The poetry even in translation is brilliant in many cases. And in Hebrew, of course, it set the language on course for being among the most beautiful on the planet. But, I realise atheists aren't exactly known for their intelligence. Quite the opposite, actually. So I shan't bother my head too much about it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 12, 2015, 08:17:51 PM
And while the priests may have been priests, what did the rest of the Jews do?

The rest of us were living like normal people do. Working at our professions, educating our children (all Jewish males learned to read Hebrew [and often the language of the people among whom they lived when that was the Diaspora], whereas European males were 95% illiterate), and just living life.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on February 12, 2015, 08:21:15 PM
And besides the supposed buttporking, how did the greeks live any different?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on February 12, 2015, 08:24:31 PM
And besides the supposed buttporking, how did the greeks live any different?

Well, for one they didn't mutilate their children's dicks or kiss them after they had done so. Judaism sounds pretty homo when you think about it. Had to have pretty dicks.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 12, 2015, 08:46:37 PM
Actually, there was no kissing involved. What was done was what at the time was deemed to be a health thing. It was thought, erroneously of course, that saliva would cleanse the injury created by the circumcision. Obviously this is not true. Today it is only practiced by a VERY small number of Jews. It is illegal in both Israel and the United States as far as I am aware. Now, alcohol is used to cleanse the area. As far as circumcision itself goes, it has been used by Gentiles in the United States for a long time as a health measure, so I would stop bitching if I were you. Chances are, some of you are circumcised (and some of you are not, it depended on what your mother decided).
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on February 12, 2015, 08:59:18 PM
Sounds like Jews were so homo that pretty dicks made them happy.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 12, 2015, 09:40:29 PM
Sounds like you are awfully focused on "homo" stuff. I wonder why? I haven't said anything about it, except to acknowledge a weakness of Southern European Civilisation. You seem to be fixated on it. Since I've already explained that it had nothing to do with being gay, whereas the Greek shit had everything to do with it, and you are still fixated on it, it makes me question your need to be so concerned with "homo" stuff. Methinks the "lady" doth protest too much (although perhaps in your case, "lady" should not be in quotes). Can you straighten out that wrist or not?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on February 12, 2015, 09:52:44 PM
Yaakov confirmed for homophobia.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 12, 2015, 09:55:42 PM
I'm not homophobic at all. I simply think that being fixated on it is a little weird.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 12, 2015, 09:57:03 PM
But enough of the gay shit one way or the other. I for one regret that the Earth isn't really flat. I think it would be a much more interesting place to live if it was.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: juner on February 12, 2015, 10:53:54 PM
But, I realise atheists aren't exactly known for their intelligence.

That bit is quite telling... But, by all means, stick to your fairy tales.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on February 12, 2015, 11:00:34 PM
I'm not homophobic at all. I simply think that being fixated on it is a little weird.

Then why do you talk about butt humping all the time? That's why I was saying Jews sound really homo. After all, the only practicing Jew on this site talks about getting it on with little boys. I simply think being fixated on that is a little weird and I was pointing it out. You talk about it more than the actual gay people on this site.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on February 12, 2015, 11:29:26 PM
the actual gay people on this site.

I'm not gay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHo told you that
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 12, 2015, 11:30:43 PM
Like I said, enough of the gay shit. And you stop with the Jew bashing and I'll stop insulting the atheists. Seriously, on a more interesting topic altogether, I just read one of the other threads. The idea of getting schools to entertain FET is very interesting, even if its just as a way of stimulating critical thinking, rather than just letting children embrace theories without question. But, I ask you, in the current environment of "teach to the test" and Common Core, do you really think you could get teachers to do it? In our day, they had time for that in the classroom. But now... I mean, my wife teaches school, and they don't. And that is on top of the idea of not being laughed at, given the subject matter of this site? How would you deal with these matters? Thoughts?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on February 13, 2015, 12:18:52 AM
What's your favorite gay sex position, everybody? Mine is the reverse Greek butt hump.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on February 13, 2015, 12:30:31 AM
What's your favorite gay sex position, everybody? Mine is the reverse Greek butt hump.

What even is that
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Shane on February 13, 2015, 01:00:33 AM
Why can't Jews just embrace their homosexual, baby penis kissing, feelings?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on February 13, 2015, 01:48:05 AM
Why can't Jews just embrace their homosexual, baby penis kissing, feelings?

Too busy bombing Gaza and counting shekels.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Shane on February 13, 2015, 02:02:16 AM
Oi vey
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 13, 2015, 03:26:07 AM
Sounds like some of you really have some faggot issues. And bombing Gaza was and is a service to humanity. Cartago delenda est.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on February 13, 2015, 07:06:36 AM
But, I realise atheists aren't exactly known for their intelligence.

Really? Then why has every successful Jew in history been an atheist?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 13, 2015, 07:41:46 AM
Because not every successful Jew has. I can name a good 50 off the top of my head who were STRONG believers, starting with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, Deborah, Samuel, Gideon...

And once you leave that time period, which again, is what gave you your civilisation (a choice between that or the Greeks, remember), then we can get into Rashi and Rambam, then moving forward a bit more to Moses Mendlesohn, and even Einstein, who granted, was not a practicing Jew, but wasn't an atheist (he believed in a Supreme Something or other).

http://jewinthecity.com/2013/10/announcing-jew-in-the-citys-2013-orthodox-jewish-all-stars/

These are all Orthodox Jews who are far more successful than any of us are likely ever to be.

William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy are both believing Jews, albeit not Orthodox.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on February 13, 2015, 07:43:25 AM
What's your favorite gay sex position, everybody? Mine is the reverse Greek butt hump.

What even is that
It's when little boys butt hump men.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 13, 2015, 07:48:00 AM
Lordy, Lordy, I declare, Greeks are in your underwear! Jokes aside, why are you up so early?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on February 13, 2015, 07:50:26 AM
It's 9:50.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on February 13, 2015, 08:45:00 AM
I can name a good 50 off the top of my head who were STRONG believers, starting with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, Deborah, Samuel, Gideon...

It doesn't count if they didn't exist.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 13, 2015, 08:46:08 AM
Its not my fault you are too stupid to know history. David, Solomon, Solomon's descendants... I could go on...
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on February 13, 2015, 08:55:19 AM
Do we have proof that these people existed?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 13, 2015, 08:59:06 AM
Yes, for many of them. We know David did, for example. There is archaeological evidence for his existence, and that of Solomon, and that of the Judges before them. There is some stuff coming to light about Moses as of recently. As for the three Patriarchs, not yet.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on February 13, 2015, 09:05:37 AM
What is the archaeological evidence proving David's existence?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on February 13, 2015, 09:38:08 AM
What is the archaeological evidence proving David's existence?

The Bible, idiot.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 13, 2015, 09:38:30 AM
G-d, we are dense. The  Tel Dan Stele, Mesha Stele and City of David. Don't you read?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 13, 2015, 09:39:40 AM
I realise atheists are among the stupidest people on the planet, but Jesus, at least try to ACT intelligent, Vindictus.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on February 13, 2015, 09:48:44 AM
Try to act civil. Remember, you will get banned without warning if you continue to break the rules.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 13, 2015, 09:51:04 AM
Well, perhaps you should give the same advice to the others who are calling me far worse names.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on February 13, 2015, 10:16:53 AM
Who does? And what?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on February 13, 2015, 01:10:17 PM
Sorry for calling you an idiot, Vauxy.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on February 13, 2015, 03:25:22 PM
God appeared to me in the form of a netgear router and commanded me to lead all Israelis to Pompeii. Really vague and it sounds hard. No thanks, router.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: jroa on February 13, 2015, 03:26:37 PM
Yaakov, have you ever eaten shrimp? 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on February 13, 2015, 05:49:33 PM
Sorry for calling you an idiot, Vauxy.

Unacceptable. You're on my shit list now.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on February 13, 2015, 05:53:09 PM
I hate it when dad's been drinking.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 13, 2015, 07:03:21 PM
JROA, before I was Observant, yes. Going offline to be with my Wife for the Romantic Holiday (remember she's not a Jew). Will be back Sunday. Take care all of you. And I do mean that. Enjoy your wives and gfs and love them all.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on February 13, 2015, 08:49:48 PM
It seems a little weird that you can just "become observant" instead of following the bible from day one. I don't recall the bible setting forth that you should "get around to following these laws eventually" rather than doing so ASAP. I feel like that's what a lot of old people do because they get more worried about dying.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on February 13, 2015, 09:04:45 PM
It seems a little weird that you can just "become observant" instead of following the bible from day one. I don't recall the bible setting forth that you should "get around to following these laws eventually" rather than doing so ASAP. I feel like that's what a lot of old people do because they get more worried about dying.

+1-I surmise that his health ailments made his mortality uncomfortably present in his life so he dealt with his fear by replacing it with a culturally ensconced delusion.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 13, 2015, 09:26:32 PM
Actually, my health had nothing to do with it. I became Observant whilst still in fine health. Rama Set, as I've said, I realise atheists don't have a reputation for brilliance or courtesy, but you could at least try at both.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on February 13, 2015, 09:29:43 PM
I am still not convinced by the 'archaeological evidence' for David's existence. According to the Wikipedia article on David they simply found some stones with David carved in them or something. Assuming these aren't pure fabrications, isn't David a common name?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 14, 2015, 02:04:20 AM
Whether you are convinced or not is irrelevant, since you aren't a scholar whose opinion matters a shit, to be blunt. However, if you don't like Wikipedia, neither do I, to be honest, it is simply the quickest place to get info. Type in "Historicity of King David" and you will come up with all sorts of MUCH more informative stuff.

An example:

QUOTE--Few modern Biblical archaeology discoveries have caused as much excitement as the Tel Dan inscription—writing on a ninth-century B.C. stone slab (or stela) that furnished the first historical evidence of King David from the Bible.
The Tel Dan inscription, or “House of David” inscription, was discovered in 1993 at the site of Tel Dan in northern Israel in an excavation directed by Israeli archaeologist Avraham Biran.

The broken and fragmentary inscription commemorates the victory of an Aramean king over his two southern neighbors: the “king of Israel” and the “king of the House of David.” In the carefully incised text written in neat Aramaic characters, the Aramean king boasts that he, under the divine guidance of the god Hadad, vanquished several thousand Israelite and Judahite horsemen and charioteers before personally dispatching both of his royal opponents. Unfortunately, the recovered fragments of the “House of David” inscription do not preserve the names of the specific kings involved in this brutal encounter, but most scholars believe the stela recounts a campaign of Hazael of Damascus in which he defeated both Jehoram of Israel and Ahaziah of Judah.--END QUOTE

Taken from http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-artifacts/artifacts-and-the-bible/the-tel-dan-inscription-the-first-historical-evidence-of-the-king-david-bible-story/

Another place is the following article taken just today from the Huffington Post at http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/19/king-david-palace-archaeologists-khirbet-qeiyafa_n_3620053.html

Enjoy.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on February 14, 2015, 02:19:25 AM
Went straight to the /r/askhistorians subreddit with this one, easily one of the best history focused subreddits. Here's a tl;dr of a highly upvoted response (http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/24xjvn/was_king_david_real_is_there_any_archaeological/chbou8a) from the top thread in my search:

Quote
There isn't a consensus - those who place the final weight of proof on archaeology say 'no', those who allow weight to be accorded to the text, believe 'yes', but there's currently nothing to shut up either camp for good.

So the article is correct - we only know of David primarily because of the textual references in the Hebrew bible, with some very small archaeological support, but that is to be expected.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 14, 2015, 02:22:39 AM
Well, since the report on David's palace just came out TODAY, I'd say that rather supercedes what you found.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on February 14, 2015, 03:53:02 AM
Well, since the report on David's palace just came out TODAY, I'd say that rather supercedes what you found.

No.

Quote
This is not the first time archaeologists have announced what they believe to be evidence of the figure. In 2008, Israeli archaeologist Eilat Mazar said that she found what she believed to be King David's palace in an ancient area of Jerusalem by using Biblical descriptions to guide her excavations. However, the Times of Israel notes that Mazar's findings remain controversial, due in part to her dependence on a literal reading of ancient religious texts during her research.

This is exactly in line with what was said. Some people are operating on the premise that he definitely existed and you just need to find the evidence. This is not how anyone should conduct research ever.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 14, 2015, 11:18:11 AM
And an atheist operates on the principle that something can arise from nothing. Even stupider, but they still do it. And your opinion of "how you should do research ever" is a bit irrelevant, again, because you are not the scholar whose opinion matters a shit. I mean, come on, you believe the world is flat!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on February 14, 2015, 11:53:07 AM
Sometime coming to be from nothing is no less plausible than the existence of an eternal being who always has existed and always will exist with no beginning and no end.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 14, 2015, 12:20:28 PM
Actually, no. It is a logical impossibility for something to come from nothing. This is not a question of proving the Jewish G-d, or any other god or deity.  But, if something comes to be, it had to come from something else.

If something is capable of creating something else, ie, if something can create you, then traditionally, said something has always been called G-d. Now you can call it what you will, but to deny its presence is simply to deny logic, and make yourself out to be a fool.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Hoppy on February 14, 2015, 12:32:10 PM
Sometime coming to be from nothing is no less plausible than the existence of an eternal being who always has existed and always will exist with no beginning and no end.
Preach it mugsy.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on February 14, 2015, 12:50:03 PM
How can something have always been?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on February 14, 2015, 01:09:15 PM
Actually, no. It is a logical impossibility for something to come from nothing. This is not a question of proving the Jewish G-d, or any other god or deity.  But, if something comes to be, it had to come from something else.

If something is capable of creating something else, ie, if something can create you, then traditionally, said something has always been called G-d. Now you can call it what you will, but to deny its presence is simply to deny logic, and make yourself out to be a fool.

I like how you disprove the Big Bang by saying it's "illogical" but say that it doesn't apply to God because you said so.  Classic.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 14, 2015, 01:11:49 PM
Is it so impossible to think that's something might be eternal? Just because we ourselves are not, does that imply that NOTHING is? What about something outside of time? I mean, we are getting into some interesting philosophy when we start talking about things outside our own dimensional concepts, but is it so hard to conceive after all? I don't get the malfunction here. It strikes me that an atheist lacks an imagination, for one. I mean, wow. What a boring world to live in, to only accept that which you can see. No wonder you all believe the world is flat. It looks flat. Ergo, it is flat.

I won't dispute the simplistic use of logic. The world does look flat out the window. Ergo, it must be. To an atheist, well, I've never seen a deity, ergo, there isn't one. I have never been the personal recipient of a miracle, ergo, they don't occur. From a so-called Zetetic perspective...

I don't deny, from that perspective, its pretty hard to gainsay atheism. Of course, taking logic further is something an atheist seems unable to do. 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 14, 2015, 01:16:25 PM
And I never denied the Big Bang. But it had to start from something. It couldn't occur by itself. Again. That is an event. G-d is a thing. Events don't happen by themselves. I realise atheists need help with basic logic, but you could at least try.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on February 14, 2015, 01:17:33 PM
ITT: Yaakov is upset at atheists because they've successfully hijacked his culture and abused it for world domination, while religious observance continues to get people nowhere in life.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 14, 2015, 01:21:14 PM
Actually, the only thing atheists HAVE succeeded at is killing. The French Revolution, the Russian, the Chinese, the Cambodian, the Cuban, the Ethiopian, shall I go on?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on February 14, 2015, 01:24:48 PM
Why would that matter to you? You've been a great advocate for killing people for this entire thread.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 14, 2015, 01:28:18 PM
That is simply a stupid statement, not that I have come to expect differently from an atheist. I have recommended protecting our way of life. And fighting a real war, like we fought WWII. When you fight wars, unfortunately, people die, and a lot of people die. This "surgical strike" bullshit results in just pissing people off. ISIS has already said that it has done no harm to them. The only way to take them out is to do exactly that. It would save more lives in the long run if we just did it, just like the nuclear bombing of Japan saved lives in the end.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on February 14, 2015, 01:33:11 PM
What report?  The one from huff post?  I hope not because that was from July 2013. Anyway, newer does not give primacy as you are implying.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on February 14, 2015, 01:34:45 PM
Is it so impossible to think that's something might be eternal? Just because we ourselves are not, does that imply that NOTHING is? What about something outside of time? I mean, we are getting into some interesting philosophy when we start talking about things outside our own dimensional concepts, but is it so hard to conceive after all? I don't get the malfunction here. It strikes me that an atheist lacks an imagination, for one. I mean, wow. What a boring world to live in, to only accept that which you can see. No wonder you all believe the world is flat. It looks flat. Ergo, it is flat.
And none of this can apply to the Universe because?
The big bang was an event.  So?  Does that mean that this is all there is? Or maybe this big bang is just an effect from some larger universe?  Just because you can't see the multiple layers of existence, doesn't mean they don't exist.


That is simply a stupid statement, not that I have come to expect differently from an atheist. I have recommended protecting our way of life. And fighting a real war, like we fought WWII. When you fight wars, unfortunately, people die, and a lot of people die. This "surgical strike" bullshit results in just pissing people off. ISIS has already said that it has done no harm to them. The only way to take them out is to do exactly that. It would save more lives in the long run if we just did it, just like the nuclear bombing of Japan saved lives in the end.
Yep, killing one of their head clerics is no damage at all.

So why would killing all of them do any damage?

Honestly, you'd think being a Jew you'd realize just how futile it is to wipe out an entire ethnic group and expect that to work.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on February 14, 2015, 01:40:01 PM
Honestly, you'd think being a Jew you'd realize just how futile it is to wipe out an entire ethnic group and expect that to work.

Even Jews agree that Hitler did nothing wrong.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 14, 2015, 01:43:53 PM
What report?  The one from huff post?  I hope not because that was from July 2013. Anyway, newer does not give primacy as you are implying.

Ah, what? Well, doesn't matter. The fact is, they still exist. They should have ceased to exist the first time they killed an American. They should have been completely eliminated. And it isn't too late. We should go Dresden on the entire area ISIS controls. We could knock their asses out within a week.


Is it so impossible to think that's something might be eternal? Just because we ourselves are not, does that imply that NOTHING is? What about something outside of time? I mean, we are getting into some interesting philosophy when we start talking about things outside our own dimensional concepts, but is it so hard to conceive after all? I don't get the malfunction here. It strikes me that an atheist lacks an imagination, for one. I mean, wow. What a boring world to live in, to only accept that which you can see. No wonder you all believe the world is flat. It looks flat. Ergo, it is flat.
And none of this can apply to the Universe because?
The big bang was an event.  So?  Does that mean that this is all there is? Or maybe this big bang is just an effect from some larger universe?  Just because you can't see the multiple layers of existence, doesn't mean they don't exist.

And indeed you could argue that. But then you would be arguing that events themselves are G-d, which I don't agree with, but ok, it still denies atheism.




That is simply a stupid statement, not that I have come to expect differently from an atheist. I have recommended protecting our way of life. And fighting a real war, like we fought WWII. When you fight wars, unfortunately, people die, and a lot of people die. This "surgical strike" bullshit results in just pissing people off. ISIS has already said that it has done no harm to them. The only way to take them out is to do exactly that. It would save more lives in the long run if we just did it, just like the nuclear bombing of Japan saved lives in the end.
Quote
Yep, killing one of their head clerics is no damage at all.

So why would killing all of them do any damage?

Honestly, you'd think being a Jew you'd realize just how futile it is to wipe out an entire ethnic group and expect that to work.

I didn't say you had to kill an entire ethnic group. I said you had to kill off ISIS. Going Dresden on the bastards in the territory they control would do it, just like it did Germany and Japan. We didn't have to kill the entire German and Japanese peoples.

Honestly, you'd think being a Jew you'd realize just how futile it is to wipe out an entire ethnic group and expect that to work.

Even Jews agree that Hitler did nothing wrong.

Leave it to a moderator to say something anti-Semitic and stupid. But then, you are an atheist. Why should I be surprised?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on February 14, 2015, 01:46:23 PM
Leave it to a moderator to say something anti-Semitic and stupid. But then, you are an atheist. Why should I be surprised?

Why do you think I'm an atheist?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 14, 2015, 01:47:53 PM
Well, if you're not an atheist, you are an anti-Semitic, pompous fool.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on February 14, 2015, 01:51:24 PM
Well, I'm not the one advocating for ethnic genocide. I'm just saying, if you were put in charge, you'd turn out to be Hitler #2.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 14, 2015, 01:52:39 PM
I'm actually not advocating that either. I'm advocating the winning of a war. And in wars a lot of people die. Look, there are a shit-ton of Arab people in the world. Killing off the ISIS and Hamas is hardly genocide.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on February 14, 2015, 01:57:07 PM
That's true, but your dislike for muslims isn't limited to ISIS and Hamas, now is it?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 14, 2015, 01:59:01 PM
I despise the bastards. But just because I despise them doesn't mean I want to kill them. I think they should be forcibly removed from the United States and Europe and returned to their original places of residence, and contained there, but beyond that, I think they should be left alone to be as savage to each other as they would like.

EDIT: Well, its been fun. But I have my work, and my Wife will soon be up, I am sure. And, Gentlemen, its Valentine's Day. I hope you are all as in love with your significant others as I am with mine. Have a happy, people. Enjoy the day, and your wives or gfs. I'll be on tomorrow, most likely. I have a lot of work to do tomorrow, but I am sure you will see me during breaks.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: jroa on February 14, 2015, 02:52:03 PM
Are strawberry crepes kosher?  That is what I made for breakfast for valentines day.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on February 14, 2015, 05:07:27 PM
Yaakov is right, something coming from nothing is stupid, that's why many atheists don't believe the universe ever came into being at all, but rather it has always existed (and always will).

http://phys.org/news/2015-02-big-quantum-equation-universe.html
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on February 14, 2015, 07:32:48 PM
And an atheist operates on the principle that something can arise from nothing. Even stupider, but they still do it. And your opinion of "how you should do research ever" is a bit irrelevant, again, because you are not the scholar whose opinion matters a shit. I mean, come on, you believe the world is flat!

bro this doesn't even address my argument. Did you know that some of the earliest and most controversial scientific work was performed by Christians and Deists? That HEAPS of modern research in a variety of fields is performed by believers able to divorce their beliefs from their work? Injecting your biases into your research is a terrible way to get good results, and only leads to peer review tearing your work apart.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 15, 2015, 05:29:12 AM
I'll make sure to tell Heinrich Schleimann not to read "The Iliad" before he goes and looks for Troy.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on February 15, 2015, 10:33:53 AM
Why are you wasting your time with us dirty gentiles?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 15, 2015, 02:13:36 PM
As for the universe itself being eternal, that disagrees with current science saying that the Big Bang occurrec 13.8 billion years ago. But if it were eternal , that would imply that it was G-d in some sense, which, although I disagree, still makes the atheist look like a schmuck.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on February 15, 2015, 02:18:34 PM
But if it were eternal , that would imply that it was G-d in some sense

No, it wouldn't.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on February 15, 2015, 02:32:19 PM
As for the universe itself being eternal, that disagrees with current science saying that the Big Bang occurrec 13.8 billion years ago. But if it were eternal , that would imply that it was G-d in some sense, which, although I disagree, still makes the atheist look like a schmuck.

Yes because the big bang is only possible once and can never be a repeating event.  Such things just don't happen....   ::)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on February 15, 2015, 07:03:05 PM
As for the universe itself being eternal, that disagrees with current science saying that the Big Bang occurrec 13.8 billion years ago. But if it were eternal , that would imply that it was G-d in some sense, which, although I disagree, still makes the atheist look like a schmuck.

Where did God come from? (How many times has this question been asked so far?)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on February 15, 2015, 07:16:00 PM
As for the universe itself being eternal, that disagrees with current science saying that the Big Bang occurrec 13.8 billion years ago. But if it were eternal , that would imply that it was G-d in some sense, which, although I disagree, still makes the atheist look like a schmuck.

Where did God come from? (How many times has this question been asked so far?)

For some reason all religious people think the idea of an eternal god makes sense but an eternal universe makes none. This occurs often enough that, although I suspect Yaakov to be a troll, I know it is in fact a real belief held by real people. I even tried to explain that you could solve this logical conundrum by stating god is the universe, but this solution did not please my audience at the time.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on February 15, 2015, 07:31:41 PM
The idea that God is the universe is an interesting one. Or maybe the universe is God. The universe brought us galaxies, solar systems, life, planets and celestial bodies, and the means to survive on those bodies, etc. I see no reason why the universe can't be God. Of course it wouldn't be the God of the good book, but a representation of an omnipotent force that makes all things possible.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on February 15, 2015, 07:54:25 PM
The idea that God is the universe is an interesting one. Or maybe the universe is God. The universe brought us galaxies, solar systems, life, planets and celestial bodies, and the means to survive on those bodies, etc. I see no reason why the universe can't be God. Of course it wouldn't be the God of the good book, but a representation of an omnipotent force that makes all things possible.

What is this, 5000 BC? The universe "brought us" nothing.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on February 15, 2015, 07:59:59 PM
The universe is the sole reason we are alive. At the very least it brought us a means to survive.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 15, 2015, 10:20:26 PM
Like I said, calling the Universe G-d is something with which I disagree, but it makes more sense than atheism. The question "Who made G-d" is actually rather puerile. Aristotle spoke of the Uncaused Cause, the Unmoved Mover. I think Plato did as well. In spite of their unusual, well, let us just call them "habits", they weren't stupid. No one really cares about the question. Most people accept the fact that there is one thing in the Universe that had no creator, but has always been. Only whiny kids get hot and bothered over the question for more than five minutes. I mean, we can go round and round w/ it, but all it is is mental masturbation, ultimately. I can get you MOST of the way to G-d using reason alone. The rest you DO have to do on faith. I have never denied that.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on February 15, 2015, 10:23:49 PM
Like I said, calling the Universe G-d is something with which I disagree, but it makes more sense than atheism. The question "Who made G-d" is actually rather puerile. Aristotle spoke of the Uncaused Cause, the Unmoved Mover. I think Plato did as well. In spite of their unusual, well, let us just call them "habits", they weren't stupid. No one really cares about the question. Most people accept the fact that there is one thing in the Universe that had no creator, but has always been. Only whiny kids get hot and bothered over the question for more than five minutes. I mean, we can go round and round w/ it, but all it is is mental masturbation, ultimately. I can get you MOST of the way to G-d using reason alone. The rest you DO have to do on faith. I have never denied that.

"How can G-d exist without a creator?"

"No one really cares."

This is some seriously hardcore theology.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on February 15, 2015, 10:26:05 PM


Like I said, calling the Universe G-d is something with which I disagree, but it makes more sense than atheism. The question "Who made G-d" is actually rather puerile. Aristotle spoke of the Uncaused Cause, the Unmoved Mover. I think Plato did as well. In spite of their unusual, well, let us just call them "habits", they weren't stupid. No one really cares about the question. Most people accept the fact that there is one thing in the Universe that had no creator, but has always been. Only whiny kids get hot and bothered over the question for more than five minutes. I mean, we can go round and round w/ it, but all it is is mental masturbation, ultimately. I can get you MOST of the way to G-d using reason alone. The rest you DO have to do on faith. I have never denied that.


Who gives a f#@k what Aristotle or Plato said. They are ancient dead guys who would be considered retarded by today's standards.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on February 15, 2015, 10:27:22 PM
They also kissed boys, which is a logical fallacy.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on February 15, 2015, 10:31:33 PM
Like I said, calling the Universe G-d is something with which I disagree, but it makes more sense than atheism. The question "Who made G-d" is actually rather puerile. Aristotle spoke of the Uncaused Cause, the Unmoved Mover. I think Plato did as well. In spite of their unusual, well, let us just call them "habits", they weren't stupid. No one really cares about the question. Most people accept the fact that there is one thing in the Universe that had no creator, but has always been. Only whiny kids get hot and bothered over the question for more than five minutes. I mean, we can go round and round w/ it, but all it is is mental masturbation, ultimately. I can get you MOST of the way to G-d using reason alone. The rest you DO have to do on faith. I have never denied that.

Do you honestly not see the logical paradox that you create by saying the universe must have been caused by something but an "uncaused cause" exists? Then you basically rolled that up afterwards by saying god exists because lots of people believe god exists.

They are ancient dead guys who would be considered retarded by today's standards.

Well... not really. Their science and mathematics skills are still impressive given the time they resided in, though most of their science ended up being completely wrong (Aristotle, for example, thought maggots arose spontaneously from rotting meat). Their math is very important historically and their philosophical ventures are still discussed in pretty much every philosophy course.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on February 15, 2015, 10:39:17 PM
They also kissed boys, which is a logical fallacy.

That was completely platonic. I see no problem here.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on February 15, 2015, 10:43:02 PM
ITT: Vauxy demonstrating how to make a Yaakov thread worse than it already is.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 16, 2015, 01:18:50 AM
And mind you, no one disputes that Schliemann was a pompous arrogant ass of a man who clobbered the site of the real Troy with his sloppy work. But, he did find it. And he found it based on reading Homer, and taking him at his word. But I'll just tell him to put Homer down and go look for Troy in Antarctica or Tibet.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on February 16, 2015, 02:06:54 AM
And mind you, no one disputes that Schliemann was a pompous arrogant ass of a man who clobbered the site of the real Troy with his sloppy work. But, he did find it. And he found it based on reading Homer, and taking him at his word. But I'll just tell him to put Homer down and go look for Troy in Antarctica or Tibet.

It's because the Jews put Troy there.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 16, 2015, 02:18:00 AM
And mind you, no one disputes that Schliemann was a pompous arrogant ass of a man who clobbered the site of the real Troy with his sloppy work. But, he did find it. And he found it based on reading Homer, and taking him at his word. But I'll just tell him to put Homer down and go look for Troy in Antarctica or Tibet.

It's because the Jews put Troy there.
Ah, ok. That is a simply nonsensical, rather dumb response, but fine.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on February 16, 2015, 05:48:48 AM
And mind you, no one disputes that Schliemann was a pompous arrogant ass of a man who clobbered the site of the real Troy with his sloppy work. But, he did find it. And he found it based on reading Homer, and taking him at his word. But I'll just tell him to put Homer down and go look for Troy in Antarctica or Tibet.

It's because the Jews put Troy there.
Ah, ok. That is a simply nonsensical, rather dumb response, but fine.


I thought I would play your game :^)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on February 16, 2015, 07:49:41 AM
The Jews wrote Homer's Odyssey and also built Troy. There are several Jew words used in the epic poem, that's how I know this.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on February 16, 2015, 10:23:30 AM
Why are you wasting your time with us dirty gentiles?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 16, 2015, 10:54:13 AM
VINDICTUS, I realise that you will probably never be called by Mensa, but still...
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on February 16, 2015, 10:57:52 AM
The idea that God is the universe is an interesting one. Or maybe the universe is God. The universe brought us galaxies, solar systems, life, planets and celestial bodies, and the means to survive on those bodies, etc. I see no reason why the universe can't be God. Of course it wouldn't be the God of the good book, but a representation of an omnipotent force that makes all things possible.

What is this, 5000 BC? The universe "brought us" nothing.

If anything, we exist in spite of the universe. We've dragged ourselves kicking and screaming to life on a knife-edge of survivability. Even this veritable Eden of a planet we call Earth is mostly uninhabitable without technology. (Oceans, desert, tundra, sky, rocks, disease-filled, vicious predator-filled, too lava-filled, too high, too craggy, etc) If the universe or God or whatever is actively trying to support humans then it's doing a fairly sh*tty job of it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on February 16, 2015, 11:05:57 AM
Why do you ignore everything I ask you?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 16, 2015, 11:13:54 AM
Beardo, the question is kind of stupid, really. Ghost Spaghetti, as you are no doubt well aware, the Bible resolves that problem by saying we once lived in Paradise, and screwed it up. Now, you don't have to accept that. No one is trying to make you accept that, least of all me. But if you do not, you run into the whole issue of theodicy.  >o< >o< Why would G-d permit the crap to go on that does? If you don't answer the question in the Biblical way, and you are certainly free not to, then you have to answer it some other way. And how you interpret the Garden of Eden story, and Adam and Eve, and all that, is really up to you.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on February 16, 2015, 11:21:20 AM
Beardo, the question is kind of stupid, really.
So?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on February 16, 2015, 01:46:13 PM
I wasn't directing that post at you. I have no interest discussing magic gardens, talking snakes and mentally unhinged gods, I was discussing the idea of the 'universe' providing for us, either as a conscious or unconscious benefactor.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: jroa on February 16, 2015, 02:15:20 PM
Yaakov, why do Jews drink non-kosher water?  http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/09/02/whats-water-tiny-invisible-shrimp/
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: juner on February 16, 2015, 02:45:05 PM

Yaakov, why do Jews drink non-kosher water?  http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/09/02/whats-water-tiny-invisible-shrimp/

Quote
And don't worry. The bugs are kosher.

In a 2004 article in The Jewish Press, Rabbi David Berger, a professor of history at the City University Graduate Center, said, "The notion that God would have forbidden something that no one could know about for thousands of years, thus causing wholesale, unavoidable violation of the Torah, offends our deepest instincts about the character of both the Law and its Author."

Seems they gave themselves an escape plan using infallible logic.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 16, 2015, 03:28:13 PM
Well, I would say that is the answer. I could look deeper into the matter, but I doubt I would find much. The Rabbis are probably even now formulating answers. I suspect those answers have to do with the copepods not being properly "food", any more than gelatin is food. Although in the USA, American koshrus groups do not give kosher labels to anything except gelatin made from kosher animals and vegetable matter, in some countries, gelatin of any sort (even made from pigs) is considered edible because by the time it gets to the consumer, gelatin is considered to be a non-food item. In other words, although it is passable through the digestion, it serves no legitimate purpose as food.

For example, a rock is neither kosher nor non-kosher. You can eat it if you wish, though I never met anyone that wanted to. In some countries, gelatin is classified as neither kosher nor non-kosher. You may eat it or not, just like a rock. In the USA, it is classified as a food, and therefore is subject to the kosher laws (in which case it has to come from a kosher animal or from plants. If it comes from a pig it is not kosher and cannot be eaten by Jews. In this country most gelatin comes from either cows or pigs, but no one knows which, therefore it is not kosher).

In the case of the water, since, like the gelatin, there is no value food-wise to the copepod, the Rabbis might just declare it NOT to be a food. Just like a rock, it might be edible, or like gelatin in some countries, where it has been ruled a non-food item. You can eat it or not as you choose.

To a non-Jew, this kind of formulation might not make sense, but to us it makes perfect sense. A food, to a Jew, is something that provides calories and nutrients. A rock does not do this. Gelatin does not do this, at least not in significant amounts.  (Jell-o might, I don't know what else is in the stuff). Copepods do not do this, at least not in significant amounts (a whale has to eat a SHIT-ton of the stuff, I am guessing, to get any value out of it).

Now, I don't KNOW that that is the argument that the Rabbis will use. I am just guessing that they might. Or they might come up with something totally different. Just a thought.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 16, 2015, 03:42:22 PM
I wasn't directing that post at you. I have no interest discussing magic gardens, talking snakes and mentally unhinged gods, I was discussing the idea of the 'universe' providing for us, either as a conscious or unconscious benefactor.

And one wonders, do you believe the world is flat?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: jroa on February 16, 2015, 03:45:13 PM
It seems odd to me that God would make something taste really good, like shrimp and ham, and then tell people they are not allowed to eat it.  Then, he puts shrimp in your drinking water, but it is ok to drink it. 

If God really does not want for you to eat shrimp, then it seems logical that he would have just not created the tasty little things.  Jewism is so confusing.   
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 16, 2015, 03:54:47 PM
Taste is quite subjective, really. Its a rather stupid way to determine if you should east something. I've been told that antifreeze tastes sweet. That doesn't mean I want to eat it. And if you want to go for something natural, there are plenty of very poisonous vegetables and berries and the like out there that taste good, from what I am given to understand.

And think about it. Shrimp are bottom-feeders. They eat shit. You may enjoy the idea of eating something that eats shit, but I do not particularly find the idea appealing. Now, I realise the kosher laws are not entirely logical. There's a lot of things that aren't entirely logical. Have you ever eaten a dog? I haven't. Its not kosher, but I wouldn't anyway. Why not? Because we are accustomed in America to keep them as companion animals. The Koreans on the other hand eat them and consider them delightful.

Have you ever eaten a locust? No? Why not? They are perfectly edible. They are even kosher. That doesn't mean I'd care for one. In fact, they are supposed to be delicious, rather like shrimp, from what I hear. So, if you like shrimp, you ought to eat one. Feel free.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on February 16, 2015, 04:07:38 PM
I would eat a locust. No question.

It is pretty telling though that the reasoning for micro-shrimp being kosher is completely Ad Hoc.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 16, 2015, 04:24:33 PM
I would eat a locust. No question.

It is pretty telling though that the reasoning for micro-shrimp being kosher is completely Ad Hoc.

Actually, no. Like any situation, when something new presents itself, it must be handled. The Bible was written before the New World was even known about. It is stupid in the extreme to assume that G-d would have told Moses how to deal with New York City's water supply when New York City did not exist. Can you imagine just how big the Bible would have had to have been to deal with literally EVERY SINGLE decision that would EVER arise in the history of the human race? That is utterly stupid, and implies extreme idiocy in the person suggesting it.

RAMA SET, I realise atheists are perhaps not Mensa candidates, but come on man! I know you better than this! You are not a stupid person, even though I disagree with you on virtually everything we talk about. I mean, look, the Bible is a formidable enough book, and I am not even including the so-called "New Testament", which has no bearing on my life. The whole point of the Written Torah is to give us general information. The Oral Torah gives us more specific stuff. For example, the Written Torah says, thou shalt not go more than a Sabbath's Day Journey on the Sabbath. The Oral Torah tells how long a Sabbath's Day Journey is.

That is why the Rabbis continue to formulate concepts and Responsa. Now, there are doctrines in Orthodoxy that state that Moses was given ALL of this on Mt. Sinai, even though it would not be revealed to US until it was needed. That is an argument that you and I can have. Of course, you could ultimately give a shit.

But those who don't believe in Oral Torah per se consider the oral tradition to be of value but not of divine inspiration, and therefore, not traceable back to Moses. Fine, I can live with either option myself. But, even taking just the Written Torah, you start getting into questions of how G-d created the world. Was the Torah eternal? If so, did G-d create the world according to the Torah's plan, or did G-d create the world and then the Torah? And if you DO believe in the Divine inspiration of the Oral Torah, then the same question applies.

But ultimately, can the Rabbis create Responsa for dealing with modern day problems? Of course they can and should. Now, were those problems known to Moses on Sinai? Your answer to that will largely depend on whether you are Orthodox or not, and if so, how Frum you are. But in either case, you certainly can't expect the Bible to contain every single thing that would ever happen in the entire history of the human race. That is just straight up stupid beyond the reaches of the human imagination.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on February 16, 2015, 05:32:26 PM
God could have, at least, told you about diseases.  You know, really importaint survival stuff like how to not get small pox. (Hint, vaccination)


Having to adjust the religion to fit the times and new information puts a severe question of why God would require you to?
The invisibke shrimp could have been fixed by simply saying "that which can not fill your belly when eaten without limit can be ignored, even if it is alive."

I believe I just fixed God's poor legal skills.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 16, 2015, 05:44:11 PM
God could have, at least, told you about diseases.  You know, really importaint survival stuff like how to not get small pox. (Hint, vaccination)


Having to adjust the religion to fit the times and new information puts a severe question of why God would require you to?
The invisibke shrimp could have been fixed by simply saying "that which can not fill your belly when eaten without limit can be ignored, even if it is alive."

I believe I just fixed God's poor legal skills.

That's an abysmally stupid response, not that I have come to expect better. First point. If the Bible had contained information about medical solutions, that would have given the Mensa candidates like you ammunition when those medical solutions invariably became out of date.  And remember, disease did not come into the world until man fell. The world that G-d originally made did not have disease and death in it to worry about.

The same issue exists with the food. The world came into existence without issues like that. It was when man fell, and the world became imperfect that questions about food became a concern in the first place. Initially, humans could eat all plants, and then all meat, and then the Hebrews were given the Torah and and the Kosher Laws. Non-Jews can still eat pretty much anything they like.

Remember that even after man fell, the world, though not perfect, was a far better place than it is now. Men were living up to 969 years. It wasn't until later that G-d restricted them to 120 years. Now, you very rarely find people living that long, although if you do, its usually in Japan. They tend to have a better diet than we do.

If you would actually take the time to READ the text, you would probably learn something. I know that's extremely hard for many of you to do (reading being such a difficult skill to master and all) but it would probably help you at least LOOK a bit less foolish.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on February 16, 2015, 05:47:25 PM
God could have, at least, told you about diseases.  You know, really importaint survival stuff like how to not get small pox. (Hint, vaccination)


Having to adjust the religion to fit the times and new information puts a severe question of why God would require you to?
The invisibke shrimp could have been fixed by simply saying "that which can not fill your belly when eaten without limit can be ignored, even if it is alive."

I believe I just fixed God's poor legal skills.

That's an abysmally stupid response, not that I have come to expect better. First point. If the Bible had contained information about medical solutions, that would have given the Mensa candidates like you ammunition when those medical solutions invariably became out of date.  And remember, disease did not come into the world until man fell. The world that G-d originally made did not have disease and death in it to worry about.

The same issue exists with the food. The world came into existence without issues like that. It was when man fell, and the world became imperfect that questions about food became a concern in the first place. Initially, humans could eat all plants, and then all meat, and then the Hebrews were given the Torah and and the Kosher Laws. Non-Jews can still eat pretty much anything they like.

Remember that even after man fell, the world, though not perfect, was a far better place than it is now. Men were living up to 969 years. It wasn't until later that G-d restricted them to 120 years. Now, you very rarely find people living that long, although if you do, its usually in Japan. They tend to have a better diet than we do.

If you would actually take the time to READ the text, you would probably learn something. I know that's extremely hard for many of you to do (reading being such a difficult skill to master and all) but it would probably help you at least LOOK a bit less foolish.

Proof pending. On everything you just typed.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 16, 2015, 05:49:33 PM
Proof pending. On everything you just typed.

Ah, whatever.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on February 16, 2015, 05:51:32 PM
Proof pending. On everything you just typed.

Ah, whatever.

Regardless, DNA telomeres prove that the "humans lived to 900 years" claim is shit.  At a certain point, human cells stop dividing. It's pretty much hardwired into our DNA. If the limit was different in the past then I guess it's possible. But there is no evidence that that was ever the case.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 16, 2015, 05:59:40 PM
Proof pending. On everything you just typed.

Ah, whatever.

Regardless, DNA telomeres prove that the "humans lived to 900 years" claim is shit.  At a certain point, human cells stop dividing. It's pretty much hardwired into our DNA.

I made no scientific argument. I merely said that according to Scripture, humans lived to be as old as 969 years. if you choose not to accept that, then it sounds like a personal problem. Who are you to say that human cells stopped dividing back then as early as they do now? Sounds like  you're a rather arrogant person, but then, you are an atheist, so, what should I expect?

And although I am not even familiar with the claim that you are calling "shit", my question is this: how do you know it is shit? Are you a qualified scientist? Do you have degrees in biology? Chemistry? Zoology? Even if you do, you do understand that people in the sciences disagree regularly, right?

Then again, I forget. You are an atheist. In your brain, there is only one acceptable way of thinking. And any other way, well, Robespierre, I hear you. The guillotines are calling. Atheism is good for one thing. It does control the population.

Back then, things were A LOT different than they are now. If you choose not to accept that, then that is your business. I am fine with that. But don't expect the rest of the world to cooperate with your failure to think.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on February 16, 2015, 06:04:46 PM
I made no scientific argument. I merely said that according to Scripture, humans lived to be as old as 969 years.


Ohhhh, I'm sorry. I forgot that the "argumentum from old desert scribblings" makes your claims completely immune to scrutiny. My bad. Next time I will try to remember.  ::)


And although I am not even familiar with the claim that you are calling "shit", my question is this: how do you know it is shit? Are you a qualified scientist? Do you have degrees in biology? Chemistry? Zoology? Even if you do, you do understand that people in the sciences disagree regularly, right?

I have 6 PhDs. I don't know what you're implying here.


Then again, I forget. You are an atheist.

What makes you think that?


Back then, things were A LOT different than they are now. If you choose not to accept that, then that is your business. I am fine with that. But don't expect the rest of the world to cooperate with your failure to think.

Proof? Please do not cite the Book.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on February 16, 2015, 06:07:48 PM
Considering how close-mindedly Yackoff is approaching this whole discussion, you'd almost think he was an atheist :^)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 16, 2015, 06:14:43 PM
I made no scientific argument. I merely said that according to Scripture, humans lived to be as old as 969 years.


Ohhhh, I'm sorry. I forgot that the "argumentum from old desert scribblings" makes your claims completely immune to scrutiny. My bad. Next time I will try to remember.  ::)

That is a rather juvenile response. Given that believer and non-believer alike have classified the Bible as among the most exalted literature of all time, I'll just assume that it reflects stupidity on your part to say that.


Quote
And although I am not even familiar with the claim that you are calling "shit", my question is this: how do you know it is shit? Are you a qualified scientist? Do you have degrees in biology? Chemistry? Zoology? Even if you do, you do understand that people in the sciences disagree regularly, right?

I have 6 Ph.Ds. I don't know what you're implying here.

Anyone can claim anything. since a Ph.D takes 4 years of undergrad, and four more years of graduate school, then that implies that you have been nothing more than a professional student your entire life. If you have that many PhD's, which I doubt, then I respect you even less, because you obviously don't work. You are probably writing from your mother's basement.

Quote
Then again, I forget. You are an atheist.

What makes you think that?

If it walks like a duck and quacks like one it usually is one.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on February 16, 2015, 06:17:42 PM
Now that you're relying solely on ad hominem attacks to carry you through this discussion... is it safe for me to assume that you've got nothing substantial to add to this and that all your Biblical claims are BS?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 16, 2015, 06:22:42 PM
I'm not using ad hominems at all. I am simply stating facts.

1. If you have degrees in Biology or Zoology, you clearly do not realise that scientists disagree often.

2. You are obviously not familiar with the Bible, and cannot argue its contents logically.

3. You can only insult it because you are NOT familiar with it. Since it has been praised by believer and non-believer alike, your inability   to do anything more than be rude reflects a lack of intelligence on your part.

Shall I go on?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on February 16, 2015, 06:23:16 PM
God could have, at least, told you about diseases.  You know, really importaint survival stuff like how to not get small pox. (Hint, vaccination)


Having to adjust the religion to fit the times and new information puts a severe question of why God would require you to?
The invisibke shrimp could have been fixed by simply saying "that which can not fill your belly when eaten without limit can be ignored, even if it is alive."

I believe I just fixed God's poor legal skills.

That's an abysmally stupid response, not that I have come to expect better. First point. If the Bible had contained information about medical solutions, that would have given the Mensa candidates like you ammunition when those medical solutions invariably became out of date.  And remember, disease did not come into the world until man fell. The world that G-d originally made did not have disease and death in it to worry about.

The same issue exists with the food. The world came into existence without issues like that. It was when man fell, and the world became imperfect that questions about food became a concern in the first place. Initially, humans could eat all plants, and then all meat, and then the Hebrews were given the Torah and and the Kosher Laws. Non-Jews can still eat pretty much anything they like.

Remember that even after man fell, the world, though not perfect, was a far better place than it is now. Men were living up to 969 years. It wasn't until later that G-d restricted them to 120 years. Now, you very rarely find people living that long, although if you do, its usually in Japan. They tend to have a better diet than we do.

If you would actually take the time to READ the text, you would probably learn something. I know that's extremely hard for many of you to do (reading being such a difficult skill to master and all) but it would probably help you at least LOOK a bit less foolish.

The fall of man happens in the first 20 chapters of genesis no?  Like 99% of the Torak follows. If the Torah was given to man well after the fall of man, it would make sense that it might cover information relevant to that. It makes sense that there would at least be a section on pasteurization or that spit will not cleanse an open wound. But no, you get dumb kosher laws instead. God gives terrible advice.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on February 16, 2015, 06:24:37 PM
your inability   to do anything more than be rude reflects a lack of intelligence on your part.

ayy fucking lmao
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on February 16, 2015, 06:27:08 PM
I'm not using ad hominems at all. I am simply stating facts.

Ad Hominems can be true, but it still lends no credence to any argumentation.

Quote
1. If you have degrees in Biology or Zoology, you clearly do not realise that scientists disagree often.

2. You are obviously not familiar with the Bible, and cannot argue its contents logically.

3. You can only insult it because you are NOT familiar with it. Since it has been praised by believer and non-believer alike, your inability   to do anything more than be rude reflects a lack of intelligence on your part.

People's praise for it says nothing of its veracity. Also, you just added an ad hominem on to the end of your third point. Spiraling down the troll hole...



Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on February 16, 2015, 06:30:37 PM
I'm not using ad hominems at all. I am simply stating facts.

1. If you have degrees in Biology or Zoology, you clearly do not realise that scientists disagree often.

2. You are obviously not familiar with the Bible, and cannot argue its contents logically.

3. You can only insult it because you are NOT familiar with it. Since it has been praised by believer and non-believer alike, your inability   to do anything more than be rude reflects a lack of intelligence on your part.

Shall I go on?

Please show me one reputable scientist that uses the Bible as scientific evidence of anything.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 16, 2015, 06:35:40 PM
The fall of man happens in the first 20 chapters of genesis no?  Like 99% of the Torak follows. If the Torah was given to man well after the fall of man, it would make sense that it might cover information relevant to that. It makes sense that there would at least be a section on pasteurization or that spit will not cleanse an open wound. But no, you get dumb kosher laws instead. God gives terrible advice.

How would G-d give ideas on pasteurisation to a Bronze Age people that didn't have a way to heat things to a temperature for long enough that would succeed in pasteurising something? Again, the Bible is NOT a health code. I don't know how many times I have to say that to get it through an atheist's thick skull.

It is not an ad hominem to say something about somebody when that something happens to be a fact. Saying a person lacks intelligence, when in fact they do lack intelligence, is not an ad hominem. Furthermore, I never claimed it was true because it was praised, in fact, I even said unbelievers praised it. I merely said that insulting it reflects a lack of intelligence since non-believers even recognise the merits of it.

Well, the Palace of David was found just recently using the Scripture as source material, even though the liberal fucked up press and what-not are calling this "controversial". Then again, Heinrich Schliemann was controversial in his day for using the Iliad, until he found Troy. So, the question itself is stupid. I don't really care that the non-believing world has its head up its ass.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: garygreen on February 16, 2015, 06:35:48 PM
Why do you believe that the things written in the Bible are true?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on February 16, 2015, 06:39:51 PM
Then again, Heinrich Schliemann was controversial in his day for using the Iliad, until he found Troy.

Please explain how this is relevant in any way.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 16, 2015, 06:42:29 PM
You are dumber than I thought. It's entirely relevant. An archaeologist uses an ancient text, that most people regard as myth, and with it finds the most important part of said "myth". He went looking for Troy and found it. This lady used the Bible to find David's Palace and found it. You are a bit slow.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on February 16, 2015, 06:46:28 PM
You are dumber than I thought. It's entirely relevant. An archaeologist uses an ancient text, that most people regard as myth, and with it finds the most important part of said "myth". He went looking for Troy and found it. This lady used the Bible to find David's Palace and found it. You are a bit slow.


Still not relevant to your claims. Unless you're claiming that Troy validates David's Palace? If so, please elaborate.


This woman (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/palace-king-david.html) also claims to have found David's Palace.

How can both of these peoples be correct?  ???
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 16, 2015, 06:52:02 PM
You are dumber than I thought. It's entirely relevant. An archaeologist uses an ancient text, that most people regard as myth, and with it finds the most important part of said "myth". He went looking for Troy and found it. This lady used the Bible to find David's Palace and found it. You are a bit slow.


Still not relevant to your claims. Unless you're claiming that Troy validates David's Palace? If so, please elaborate.

Please pretend to have sense. All I am saying is that the comparison is apt. My wife's preschoolers could understand comparing and contrasting better than you.


Quote
This woman (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/palace-king-david.html) also claims to have found David's Palace.

How can both of these peoples be correct?  ???

They can't. One will eventually prove correct, and one will not. In either case, the Bible was used to find the site. Its just a question of narrowing in on WHERE the site is. The Bible isn't a map. It gives only general information. So they have to determine from that general information where the specific site is.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on February 16, 2015, 06:53:57 PM
You are dumber than I thought. It's entirely relevant. An archaeologist uses an ancient text, that most people regard as myth, and with it finds the most important part of said "myth". He went looking for Troy and found it. This lady used the Bible to find David's Palace and found it. You are a bit slow.


Still not relevant to your claims. Unless you're claiming that Troy validates David's Palace? If so, please elaborate.

Please pretend to have sense. All I am saying is that the comparison is apt. My wife's preschoolers could understand comparing and contrasting better than you.


Quote
This woman (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/palace-king-david.html) also claims to have found David's Palace.

How can both of these peoples be correct?  ???

They can't. One will eventually prove correct, and one will not. In either case, the Bible was used to find the site. Its just a question of narrowing in on WHERE the site is. The Bible isn't a map. It gives only general information. So they have to determine from that general information where the specific site is.


I understand your comparison, but I don't see how it's relevant to your argument that David's Palace was a real place. Those two things are completely separate events. What you're doing is basically saying "well they found Troy so this must be the real David's Palace". If that's the case than Troy also proves that Atlantis was a real place as well, and will be found in time.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 16, 2015, 06:57:49 PM
I understand your comparison, but I don't see how it's relevant to your argument that David's Palace was a real place. Those two things are completely separate events. What you're doing is basically saying "well they found Troy so this must be the real David's Palace". If that't the case than Troy also proves that Atlantis was a real place as well, and will be found in time,.

Ah, no. All I am saying is that Troy was deemed by many to be a fiction. It was eventually found based on the Iliad. David's Palace is deemed by some to be a fiction. It may be found based on the Bible. Its already been proven scientifically that Atlantis has never existed, could never have existed, and for obvious reasons can never be found. You are taking one hell of a leap there that I never took, and are putting thoughts in my head, that I shall thank you to keep in your own illogical little brain.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on February 16, 2015, 07:03:24 PM
I understand your comparison, but I don't see how it's relevant to your argument that David's Palace was a real place. Those two things are completely separate events. What you're doing is basically saying "well they found Troy so this must be the real David's Palace". If that't the case than Troy also proves that Atlantis was a real place as well, and will be found in time,.

Ah, no. All I am saying is that Troy was deemed by many to be a fiction. It was eventually found based on the Iliad. David's Palace is deemed by some to be a fiction. It may be found based on the Bible. Its already been proven scientifically that Atlantis has never existed, could never have existed, and for obvious reasons can never be found. You are taking one hell of a leap there that I never took, and are putting thoughts in my head, that I shall thank you to keep in your own illogical little brain.


Plato spoke of Atlantis in Timaeus and Critias, therefore it must exist. We will find it in time if we study these dialogues closely.


It may be found based on the Bible.

Was it found or not, Yaakov? Please get your trolling straight.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 16, 2015, 07:07:44 PM
I've read the dialogues. Have you? And again, when he spoke of it, it was even then questioned whether it had ever existed.

I believe it was. I was leaving the option open because they still have to sort through which site IS the Palace, if either of them are. It could be either one or neither. It is possible that it is located elsewhere for all I know. I have never been to Israel.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: garygreen on February 16, 2015, 07:13:30 PM
Do you believe that finding David's Palace necessarily means that the Biblical narrative of King David is historically accurate?

Why you do believe that the Bible is historically accurate?  This seems like a reasonable question.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 16, 2015, 07:28:48 PM
Do you believe that finding David's Palace necessarily means that the Biblical narrative of King David is historically accurate?

Actually, that is a fair question. I think if they do confirm that they HAVE found David's Palace, then it does lend weight to the narrative of King David being historically accurate. However, I would not say that they should stop there. Because simply finding the Palace does not logically make it NECESSARY that the narrative is accurate, it simply suggests that it may be.

I think that they need to continue to do as much work on Biblical archeology as can possibly be done. Its kind of like a jigsaw puzzle to me. The more pieces that you fit in, the more you find out, but the more you want to get the thing finished to have the complete picture. Just finding David's Palace will be great, of course. It will tell us a great deal. But it won't ultimately tell us if the entire narrative is correct. It will tell us that some of it is.

Quote
Why you do believe that the Bible is historically accurate?  This seems like a reasonable question.

This is also a good question, and a fair one. First, let me say that I am sticking with the Hebrew Bible for this question, ie, the "Old Testament". The so-called "New Testament", the Christian Scriptures, are outside my purview.

Why do I believe it to be historically accurate? Well, a lot of it is. I mean, they have done a lot of research and proven that the post-Exilic stuff IS accurate. As far as the pre-Exilic stuff, I don't deny that more research is still needed. And its being done. And just as at one time, there was NO proof of King David, and yet now there is some, more and more, different things in the Bible are popping up on the ground. Now, does that mean that the whole thing has been proved from Genesis to Chronicles (using the Jewish order of Books)? No.

But more and more, we are beginning to see evidence of the Hebrews sojourn in Egypt (I speak of that earlier in this thread, where they have archaeological evidence of bricks being made with cut straw, torn straw, and pure mud), and other evidences.

Now, ultimately, do I believe the Bible will be vindicated? Yes, I do. At present, I rely on Faith. But I think that one day, all this will be borne out in the historic record. It will take some time though, because archeology is NOT at all an exact science.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on February 16, 2015, 07:38:38 PM
And why do many archaeologists and historians regard David's supposed existence with skepticism? Are they all anti-semitic douchebags as well?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 16, 2015, 07:42:31 PM
And why do many archaeologists and historians regard David's supposed existence with skepticism? Are they all anti-semitic douchebags as well?

A rather stupid question, but ok. One can be a non-believer without being anti-Semitic. I would suggest that people have a lot of personal problems. They want to substitute all kinds of things for G-d, whether it be money, power, their own ego, or what-have-you. Since David's existence, while not absolutely certain, is reasonably accepted by most scholars, I would suggest that the non-believers pick another topic.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on February 16, 2015, 07:44:59 PM
Since David's existence, while not absolutely certain, is reasonably accepted by most scholars,

No it's not.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 16, 2015, 07:48:32 PM
Since the finding of the Tel Dan stele and the Mesha Stele, few scholars are prepared to say outright that David did not exist. Some may question, but few would say outright that he didn't. Many would say outright that he did, and some would say he likely did. Having read an interesting biography of the man, which portrayed him as a bit of an asshole, but did not question his existence, and having read up on current scholarship regarding him, I think I am in pretty good company when I say that.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on February 16, 2015, 07:49:03 PM
I think I am in pretty good company when I say that.

No you're not.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 16, 2015, 07:50:32 PM
Well, you can repeat yourself like a parrot, but that serves you no purpose. Feel free if you wish, however.

EDIT: And perhaps someone could explain to me how my alt is on here at the same time I am?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on February 16, 2015, 07:53:56 PM
The fall of man happens in the first 20 chapters of genesis no?  Like 99% of the Torak follows. If the Torah was given to man well after the fall of man, it would make sense that it might cover information relevant to that. It makes sense that there would at least be a section on pasteurization or that spit will not cleanse an open wound. But no, you get dumb kosher laws instead. God gives terrible advice.

How would G-d give ideas on pasteurisation to a Bronze Age people that didn't have a way to heat things to a temperature for long enough that would succeed in pasteurising something? Again, the Bible is NOT a health code. I don't know how many times I have to say that to get it through an atheist's thick skull.

Pasteurization requires raising a temperature to 65C for a prolonged period of time. Last I heard, fire does the trick. "Thou shalt boil they unclean harvest for 3 parts of the whole day and thus make they harvests clean as mountain snow"



Quote
It is not an ad hominem to say something about somebody when that something happens to be a fact. Saying a person lacks intelligence, when in fact they do lack intelligence, is not an ad hominem.

Again, whether or not an ad hominem is true has nothing to do with the argumentation. This is why it is a fallacy.

Quote
Furthermore, I never claimed it was true because it was praised, in fact, I even said unbelievers praised it. I merely said that insulting it reflects a lack of intelligence since non-believers even recognise the merits of it.

So people who have a different opinion are unintelligent. Sounds legit.

Quote
Well, the Palace of David was found just recently using the Scripture as source material, even though the liberal fucked up press and what-not are calling this "controversial". Then again, Heinrich Schliemann was controversial in his day for using the Iliad, until he found Troy. So, the question itself is stupid. I don't really care that the non-believing world has its head up its ass.

Good for you.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 16, 2015, 08:00:29 PM
You can't really boil unclean harvest without destroying it back in the Bronze Age, because you haven't got the technology to build anything to cook it in. How are you going to do that?

Again, its not an ad hominem when it is true.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on February 16, 2015, 08:04:03 PM
You can't really boil unclean harvest without destroying it back in the Bronze Age, because you haven't got the technology to build anything to cook it in. How are you going to do that?

Again, its not an ad hominem when it is true.

Are you telling me that they didn't have rudimentary bowls or pots to boil the harvest in?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 16, 2015, 08:06:07 PM
I expect they did, but to keep it at boiling temperature for 3/4 of a day? I think that would probably burn whatever they had beyond recognition. They didn't have the steel or the iron that we have. Bronze isn't a strong metal, you know that as well as I do. Yes, they might have been able to use it, but would they have? Metal had to be used for far more valuable things. Likes swords and shit.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on February 16, 2015, 08:08:10 PM
You can't really boil unclean harvest without destroying it back in the Bronze Age, because you haven't got the technology to build anything to cook it in. How are you going to do that?

I was thinking of a pot.

Quote
Again, its not an ad hominem when it is true.

If you want to ignore my points that's cool but just to see my words once more:  An ad hominem is not a fallacy because it is true or false. It is a fallacy because the intelligence of a person has nothing to do with the truth of their claims.

Here is a handy way to think about it: as soon as you stop dealing with what has been posted, but instead deal with your opinion of who posted it, you argument is shit.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on February 16, 2015, 08:11:06 PM
I expect they did, but to keep it at boiling temperature for 3/4 of a day? I think that would probably burn whatever they had beyond recognition. They didn't have the steel or the iron that we have. Bronze isn't a strong metal, you know that as well as I do. Yes, they might have been able to use it, but would they have? Metal had to be used for far more valuable things. Likes swords and shit.

Cool so you know nothing about pasteurization. Minimal pasteurization is achieved by raising some thing to 72C for 15 seconds. I hope you did not take my fictional bible passage as literal truth! 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 16, 2015, 08:18:52 PM
You can't really boil unclean harvest without destroying it back in the Bronze Age, because you haven't got the technology to build anything to cook it in. How are you going to do that?

I was thinking of a pot.

How is pasteurisation carried out today. I was under the impression that only a few things can be pasteurised, mostly liquids, rather than solid food, and that it was done on flat surfaces, rather than in any kind of pot. I think that maintaining any kind of technological know-how needed to do it would have been impossible before it was in fact invented in the 18th Century.

Quote
Quote
Again, its not an ad hominem when it is true.

If you want to ignore my points that's cool but just to see my words once more:  An ad hominem is not a fallacy because it is true or false. It is a fallacy because the intelligence of a person has nothing to do with the truth of their claims.

Here is a handy way to think about it: as soon as you stop dealing with what has been posted, but instead deal with your opinion of who posted it, you argument is shit.

You can't really deal with someone's arguments when they are so illogical that they do not admit of dealing with them. A person's intelligence, or the lack thereof, speaks to their abilities to make an argument, and is therefore relevant. Now, if I said you were fat, or ugly, or fucked up, or if I questioned your ancestry, or recommended you do socially unacceptable things with your mother, or insulted the size of your private parts, then you would have a point. Because none of those things have a bearing on your ability to post an argument. But your intelligence does indeed have a bearing on that ability.

I expect they did, but to keep it at boiling temperature for 3/4 of a day? I think that would probably burn whatever they had beyond recognition. They didn't have the steel or the iron that we have. Bronze isn't a strong metal, you know that as well as I do. Yes, they might have been able to use it, but would they have? Metal had to be used for far more valuable things. Likes swords and shit.

Cool so you know nothing about pasteurization. Minimal pasteurization is achieved by raising some thing to 72C for 15 seconds. I hope you did not take my fictional bible passage as literal truth! 

Obviously, I know that your so-called quote is not in the Bible, which I have read, and you obviously have not. But MINIMAL pasteurisation. What does that mean exactly? In order to make something safe to eat or drink, how pasteurised does it need to be? I am not so sure a campfire would do it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on February 16, 2015, 08:20:31 PM
How would G-d give ideas on pasteurisation to a Bronze Age people that didn't have a way to heat things to a temperature for long enough that would succeed in pasteurising something?

Ha ha, what? People in the bronze age had the ability to melt bronze metal but couldn't boil milk?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on February 16, 2015, 08:30:26 PM
You're a fucking idiot, Yaakov.

*edited for profanity
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 16, 2015, 08:34:38 PM
Well, you can melt metal. Why not boil milk. i am sure you can. But can it be kept safe for how long? That is a VERY interesting question. And I admit, one I can't answer. OF course you can pasteurise. But they couldn't refrigerate. So what good would it have done?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on February 16, 2015, 08:37:42 PM
But they couldn't refrigerate. So what good would it have done?

Yes they could. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2154428/Did-Bronze-Age-Scots-fridges-Dig-finds-primitive-cold-storage-remains-roundhouse-4-000-years-ago.html)

You're an idiot.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on February 16, 2015, 08:38:53 PM
Britain is a lot colder than Israel. You really aren't that bright.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on February 16, 2015, 09:01:50 PM
Britain is a lot colder than Israel. You really aren't that bright.

You're an idiot.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on February 16, 2015, 09:08:21 PM
You can't really deal with someone's arguments when they are so illogical that they do not admit of dealing with them.

Something that has not really occurred in the posts of the people you are insulting. Regardless, if that is your stance you just point out the illogical portion and leave the Ad Hominem out of it. 

Quote
A person's intelligence, or the lack thereof, speaks to their abilities to make an argument, and is therefore relevant.

You say people are stupid on the mere basis that they are atheist. This is a subjective opinion unsupported by fact and therefore irrelevant.

Quote
Now, if I said you were fat, or ugly, or fucked up, or if I questioned your ancestry, or recommended you do socially unacceptable things with your mother, or insulted the size of your private parts, then you would have a point. Because none of those things have a bearing on your ability to post an argument. But your intelligence does indeed have a bearing on that ability.

Someone's ability to form an argument is irrelevant. Only the argument itself is relevant. Get it yet?

Although pasteurization might not be as useful as it is today surely it is much more useful than spitting to disinfect a wound?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on February 16, 2015, 09:09:25 PM
You really aren't that bright.

Again, editorial with no bearing on the argument. Lrn2adhominem inb4yaakovdoesntgetlememe
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on February 16, 2015, 09:18:51 PM
Alright, this is getting out of hand again. Yaakov can take another break to cool off. Vauxy, as accurate as your Yaakov impression is, it's still against the rules.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on February 16, 2015, 09:20:22 PM
Alright, this is getting out of hand again. Yaakov can take another break to cool off. Vauxy, as accurate as your Yaakov impression is, it's still against the rules.

Understood.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Jonah ben Amittai on February 16, 2015, 09:50:48 PM
Probably going to get banned again, but I just wanted to say, that was a little unfair. No one gets banned but me, even though their insults were far worse, not just personal, but downright anti-Semitic in many cases. I would be happy to stop insulting on both sides. It doesn't contribute to a discussion at all. But what do you expect me to do? Sit and take it?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Jonah ben Amittai on February 16, 2015, 09:54:27 PM
I won't argue that pasteurisation would have been as helpful then as it is today, IF it had been followed by refrigeration, but in Israel, that did not exist, to my knowledge. My opinion of the atheist will go unspoken for the present. Lets concentrate on the discussion, shall we? Just as I hope your opinion of the believer will go unspoken, agreed? I refer to our opinion of each other's intelligence based on our state of believing or not believing.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on February 16, 2015, 09:55:18 PM
Probably going to get banned again, but I just wanted to say, that was a little unfair. No one gets banned but me, even though their insults were far worse, not just personal, but downright anti-Semitic in many cases. I would be happy to stop insulting on both sides. It doesn't contribute to a discussion at all. But what do you expect me to do? Sit and take it?
Too bad there's no rule against anti-semitism.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on February 16, 2015, 09:56:22 PM
Vauxy was the only one insulting you, and I assume he only did that because you started it. I'll remind you again that anti-Semitism is not against the rules. If it was, then we'd have to extend the same courtesy to other ethnic groups as well, and you'd be permabanned by now for your consistently anti-Islamic commentary.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Jonah ben Amittai on February 16, 2015, 09:57:30 PM
Well, I shall refrain from further insults. They do not contribute to conversation at all. I find them distasteful, frankly.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Jonah ben Amittai on February 16, 2015, 09:59:06 PM
Jet fuel can't melt steel beams? I suppose it can when its in flames, but I too, question the 9-11 explanation of things we've been given.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on February 16, 2015, 10:04:37 PM
Yaakov, if you keep making alts to circumvent bans, that's just going to result in even bigger bans.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on February 16, 2015, 10:29:47 PM
Well there goes our entertainment for the week.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Hoppy on February 16, 2015, 11:12:30 PM
It seems odd to me that God would make something taste really good, like shrimp and ham, and then tell people they are not allowed to eat it.  Then, he puts shrimp in your drinking water, but it is ok to drink it. 

If God really does not want for you to eat shrimp, then it seems logical that he would have just not created the tasty little things.  Jewism is so confusing.
God originally put shrimp on the moon, then some fell to earth. I think this is the reason for the seeming paradox.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on February 16, 2015, 11:47:12 PM
Jet fuel can't melt steel beams? I suppose it can when its in flames, but I too, question the 9-11 explanation of things we've been given.

Ignoring the fact that it's an epic meme, the argument is actually a strawman designed to prompt the following response from autists like myself. No, jet fuel cannot melt steel beams as it ignites and burns at a lower temperature than the melting temperature of steel. But this is missing the point, as the beams didn't melt and their bending was not due to the jet fuel. The jet fuel burned out rapidly within the first few minutes, and the fire that remained burned on for long enough (and well enough, given just about everything in there was flammable) to sufficiently weaken the steel structure of the WTC. Once the structure was too weak to support 1 floor, it caved, resulting in a subsequent crashing of lower floors that could not hold the weight.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on February 17, 2015, 12:23:46 AM
Jet fuel can't melt steel beams? I suppose it can when its in flames, but I too, question the 9-11 explanation of things we've been given.

Ignoring the fact that it's an epic meme, the argument is actually a strawman designed to prompt the following response from autists like myself. No, jet fuel cannot melt steel beams as it ignites and burns at a lower temperature than the melting temperature of steel. But this is missing the point, as the beams didn't melt and their bending was not due to the jet fuel. The jet fuel burned out rapidly within the first few minutes, and the fire that remained burned on for long enough (and well enough, given just about everything in there was flammable) to sufficiently weaken the steel structure of the WTC. Once the structure was too weak to support 1 floor, it caved, resulting in a subsequent crashing of lower floors that could not hold the weight.

How did we get on this topic?  ???
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on February 17, 2015, 12:30:10 AM
Jet fuel can't melt steel beams? I suppose it can when its in flames, but I too, question the 9-11 explanation of things we've been given.

Ignoring the fact that it's an epic meme, the argument is actually a strawman designed to prompt the following response from autists like myself. No, jet fuel cannot melt steel beams as it ignites and burns at a lower temperature than the melting temperature of steel. But this is missing the point, as the beams didn't melt and their bending was not due to the jet fuel. The jet fuel burned out rapidly within the first few minutes, and the fire that remained burned on for long enough (and well enough, given just about everything in there was flammable) to sufficiently weaken the steel structure of the WTC. Once the structure was too weak to support 1 floor, it caved, resulting in a subsequent crashing of lower floors that could not hold the weight.

How did we get on this topic?  ???

I'll tell you how: it's an epic meme
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on February 17, 2015, 12:37:18 AM
I'm memeing on people without even trying
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on February 17, 2015, 12:40:41 AM
Oh, it's Blanko's fault. I see now.  Makes sense.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on February 17, 2015, 02:08:58 AM
Jet fuel can't melt steel beams? I suppose it can when its in flames, but I too, question the 9-11 explanation of things we've been given.

Ignoring the fact that it's an epic meme, the argument is actually a strawman designed to prompt the following response from autists like myself. No, jet fuel cannot melt steel beams as it ignites and burns at a lower temperature than the melting temperature of steel. But this is missing the point, as the beams didn't melt and their bending was not due to the jet fuel. The jet fuel burned out rapidly within the first few minutes, and the fire that remained burned on for long enough (and well enough, given just about everything in there was flammable) to sufficiently weaken the steel structure of the WTC. Once the structure was too weak to support 1 floor, it caved, resulting in a subsequent crashing of lower floors that could not hold the weight.

How did we get on this topic?  ???

Yaakov saw Blanko's super hip personal text and took the bait (or is it b8?). Then I corrected him because 9/11 truthers are irritating.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on February 17, 2015, 06:05:38 AM
Is beer kosher?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Dionysios on February 18, 2015, 09:49:12 AM
Do you think that Gregory Peck's 1947 movie 'Gentlemen's Agreement' applies to attitudes and trends in the United States these days?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: EnigmaZV on March 07, 2015, 06:12:57 AM
If you took some cud from a cow, and fed it to a pig, and the pig chewed it, does that mean that you could eat it?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: juner on March 07, 2015, 09:35:27 AM

If you took some cud from a cow, and fed it to a pig, and the pig chewed it, does that mean that you could eat it?
Leviticus says no because the pig's feet still aren't acceptable. Something about ugly toes.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on March 07, 2015, 09:49:42 AM

If you took some cud from a cow, and fed it to a pig, and the pig chewed it, does that mean that you could eat it?
Leviticus says no because the pig's feet still aren't acceptable. Something about ugly toes.
What if the pig was genetically modified to have no legs?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: juner on March 07, 2015, 03:15:16 PM


If you took some cud from a cow, and fed it to a pig, and the pig chewed it, does that mean that you could eat it?
Leviticus says no because the pig's feet still aren't acceptable. Something about ugly toes.
What if the pig was genetically modified to have no legs?

I doubt it, the animal is supposed to be cloven hoofed. But the J's seem to have loopholes for other things, so maybe.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on March 07, 2015, 09:20:10 PM
What about a chimera mix of a cow, pig, and goat?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on March 07, 2015, 09:32:07 PM
Or lab grown pig meat?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: jroa on March 08, 2015, 12:02:08 PM
What about pork flavored tofu? 
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on March 08, 2015, 12:11:07 PM
What if a pig is brought up in a palace, never coming into contact with dirt in it's entire life, while being fed proper qiality food instead of old leftovers shit and dirt, having it's waste immediately disposed of so it wouldn't come into further contact with it. Would this pig be kosher?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on March 19, 2015, 11:03:40 AM
Now that you're back, you can proceed with answering out questions, Yaakov.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on March 19, 2015, 11:05:20 AM
*GRIN* No, said beast would not be kosher, because it still does not have split hooves or chew the cud.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on March 19, 2015, 11:10:53 AM
Fine. A more serious question which I probably could look up the answer to, but I'm too lasy.
Why did the Israelites go to Egypt?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on March 19, 2015, 11:16:50 AM
Originally, Joseph, son of Jacob, was sold into slavery by his brothers. He rose to power there and became Grand Vizier. When the period of famine came, Jacob and his family ended up going to Egypt at Pharaoh's invitation to live and prosper there in the Land of Goshen. This you can read about in the last 12 or 15 chapters of Genesis. And Exodus of course, begins with verse 8 of the 1st chapter saying "and there arose a in Egypt a Pharaoh who did not know Joseph."

That is when they were made slaves.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on March 19, 2015, 11:20:39 AM
And God just stood there and allowed his chosen people become slaves. What a dick.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on March 19, 2015, 11:22:18 AM
Many of us would argue that there was a motive behind it. I mean, with people like Mr. Bickles to deal with, its probably a good idea to get used to that kind of thing quickly, no?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: mister bickles on March 19, 2015, 11:50:59 AM
Many of us would argue that there was a motive behind it. I mean, with people like Mr. Bickles to deal with, its probably a good idea to get used to that kind of thing quickly, no?

don't go confusing your-self with the Old Testament patriarchs;
you're not fit to be their door-mat!
and....you have no relation to them any-way.....nor can you (or any so-called 'jew' alive today, for that matter) prove such...seeing as how all the genealogy records were destroyed when the Second Temple fell;
chances are, you're a Khazar ;
i'm more "in tune" with the British Israel/lost tribes thesis than having to listen to the likes of you saying you're "God's chosen"......the only entity that's 'chosen' the likes of you is the Devil!


Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on March 19, 2015, 12:00:58 PM
DNA testing proves you wrong of course. But keep it up. I like reporting you to Administration for insults in the upper fora.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on March 19, 2015, 12:01:53 PM
I love this.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on March 19, 2015, 12:13:49 PM
DNA testing proves you wrong of course. But keep it up. I like reporting you to Administration for insults in the upper fora.

Please stop abusing the report feature. I do not like having my email inbox getting cluttered by that.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on March 19, 2015, 12:16:20 PM
I will report him every single time he insults me.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on March 19, 2015, 12:17:36 PM
Blanko: Is insulting Yaakov against the rules?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on March 19, 2015, 12:18:14 PM
I'll just tell it to you straight, you're insulting him much more than he is insulting you. Cut it out, cease with the report spam, or you get a 2 month ban.

Blanko: Is insulting Yaakov against the rules?

Yes, it is. Unfortunately for Yaakov, calling him a "jew" when he is one does not count as a personal insult.

I especially liked the report regarding a quote edited to be insulting, when the original quote by him was already insulting. I'm pretty sure Yaakov thinks he can get mister bickles banned by report spamming like he did on Daniel's FES. Too bad our moderation isn't quite that incompetent.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on March 19, 2015, 12:22:45 PM
Explain to me, honestly, how I am insulting him. Now you have me curious. I'll control using the report feature. Fair enough. But I would like an explanation.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on March 19, 2015, 08:36:51 PM
Yaakov, what do you think about the more recent studies in Egypt indicating that the Egyptians didn't use slave labor and actually had paid farmers work the pyramids when the growing season was done?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: jroa on March 24, 2015, 04:44:21 PM
I don't think Yaakov claimed that the Jews built the pyramids.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on March 24, 2015, 05:32:23 PM
I don't think Yaakov claimed that the Jews built the pyramids.

I didn't say he did.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on March 24, 2015, 07:13:19 PM
If only Yaakov were here... then we'd be able to ask him...
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pongo on March 27, 2015, 06:48:53 PM
If Christians came from Jews, then why are there still Jews? 

Checkmate.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on March 27, 2015, 10:14:51 PM
Why did Noah curse Canaan?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 03, 2015, 04:51:39 PM
Yaakov, what do you think about the more recent studies in Egypt indicating that the Egyptians didn't use slave labor and actually had paid farmers work the pyramids when the growing season was done?

In fact, I never claimed that the Jews built the pyramids at all, and I agree, that you never said I did. As much studying as I have done regarding the pyramids showed me the following:

They were built by a combination of corvee labour, slave labour, and paid labour. Corvee labour (and there should be an accent over that last "e", but my computer is not geared for that) was what many nations used in lieu of taxes. A person would pay his taxes in the form of labour rather than money. It wasn't quite slavery, but it was damned close to it.

Now, the fact that the Jews were slaves in Egypt does NOT imply that they built the pyramids. I suppose children grow up thinking that because of what they learn in Sunday school, but we Jews are not taught that in Cheder. We are simply taught what Exodus says, namely,

Exodus 1:11King James Version (KJV)

11 Therefore they did set over them taskmasters to afflict them with their burdens. And they built for Pharaoh treasure cities, Pithom and Raamses.

So, if that answers your question, there you are.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on April 03, 2015, 04:53:11 PM
What do you think of the deal with Iran being forged?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on April 03, 2015, 04:56:20 PM
What do you think about David Icke and his claim that the Jews are all reptilian aliens from the Draco constellation?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 03, 2015, 05:04:48 PM
Why did Noah curse Canaan?

Wow, that is a hell of a question. And to be honest, I am not certain of the answer. I can do some research and try to find an answer, but it may take a bit of time.

What do you think of the deal with Iran being forged?

I think that even talking to Iran is the stupidest thing we could possibly do. Just a few days ago, one of their highest ranking generals was talking about wiping Israel off the map, and just a few days before that, they had people in the streets chanting "death to America". I hope Israel decides to take out their reactors. Obama is a traitor to the American people and should be tried for treason, found guilty, and treated as such. Even Arab nations such as Saudi Arabia, the which I normally hold in contempt, are questioning this deal with the Devil.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: xasop on April 03, 2015, 07:42:25 PM
Brought here from the same-sex marriage thread:

In a society that is not governed by religious law, I agree with you entirely. And frankly, I am not so sure I would want to live in a Halachic State (meaning one that is governed by Halacha, or Jewish Law). I mean, it would depend. If Halacha were used as an inspiration for law, that is one thing. I wouldn't mind that at all. But if it in fact WERE the law, that would not be a state I would want to live in.

I'm curious as to why you wouldn't want this. Is it just a belief in secularity, or is there some feature of Halacha that would make it undesirable?

Right now, there is a debate going on in Israel, that started before the last election. A "Nationality Law" was proposed that would define Israel as a Jewish State and would make Halacha "the inspiration for Israeli law". Furthermore, although all citizens would have their rights respected as individuals, their current status as separate national groups would dissolved. The State would be defined as a State of its Jewish citizens. Other citizens would have individual rights, but not group rights, as they do now.

Would that distinction be made on the basis of ethnicity or religion? That is, what rights would an Arab who converted to Judaism have? What about an ethnic Jew who converted to Islam?

I'm not sure if this actually happens in practice, I'd just like to understand where the line is drawn.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on April 03, 2015, 08:22:35 PM
What do you think of the deal with Iran being forged?

I think that even talking to Iran is the stupidest thing we could possibly do. Just a few days ago, one of their highest ranking generals was talking about wiping Israel off the map, and just a few days before that, they had people in the streets chanting "death to America". I hope Israel decides to take out their reactors. Obama is a traitor to the American people and should be tried for treason, found guilty, and treated as such. Even Arab nations such as Saudi Arabia, the which I normally hold in contempt, are questioning this deal with the Devil.
"highest ranking generals"? 
Seriously?

First off, the only english news paper I found that had this information was an Israeli one.  So forgive me if I don't take their word for it.
Secondly, he isn't high ranking.
Mohammad Reza Naqdi, commander of Iran's Basij force is not, by any definition, a man of actual political clout.  He runs the Basij and can't even get a law to force women to wear the veil.  If he's the only one calling for death of Israel, I wouldn't worry.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 03, 2015, 09:42:00 PM
Brought here from the same-sex marriage thread:

In a society that is not governed by religious law, I agree with you entirely. And frankly, I am not so sure I would want to live in a Halachic State (meaning one that is governed by Halacha, or Jewish Law). I mean, it would depend. If Halacha were used as an inspiration for law, that is one thing. I wouldn't mind that at all. But if it in fact WERE the law, that would not be a state I would want to live in.

I'm curious as to why you wouldn't want this. Is it just a belief in secularity, or is there some feature of Halacha that would make it undesirable?

Well, Halacha is 4,000 years old, in other words, the Bronze Age. Some of the punishments were, well, a bit ridiculous. Walk too far on Sabbath. I KILL YOU!!!

I can understand using Halacha as the basis for legislation, in other words, using it as a starting point, but the punishments would have to go.

Quote
Right now, there is a debate going on in Israel, that started before the last election. A "Nationality Law" was proposed that would define Israel as a Jewish State and would make Halacha "the inspiration for Israeli law". Furthermore, although all citizens would have their rights respected as individuals, their current status as separate national groups would dissolved. The State would be defined as a State of its Jewish citizens. Other citizens would have individual rights, but not group rights, as they do now.

Would that distinction be made on the basis of ethnicity or religion? That is, what rights would an Arab who converted to Judaism have? What about an ethnic Jew who converted to Islam?

I'm not sure if this actually happens in practice, I'd just like to understand where the line is drawn.

Actually, yes, it does rarely occur in both directions, although doing so in either direction can be downright dangerous for a person because of extremism on both sides. and a Jew is a Jew whether they are born that way or convert, and they lose their Jewish status if they formally change their religion to something else, but not if they simply cease to practice Judaism. In other words, if you are an atheist Jew, you are still considered a Jew, but if you are a Hindu, you are no longer considered a Jew. The same would apply to a Jew who became a Christian or a Muslim.

And, to answer your question regarding whether there are secular unions in Israel, the answer is no. If you wish to have your marriage recognised in any way, you must do so in the rites of Judaism, Christianity, or Islam, or the Druze Faith. There is no way to unite with another person in a secular way. Civil unions do not exist.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: mister bickles on April 04, 2015, 11:19:17 AM
Even Arab nations such as Saudi Arabia, the which I normally hold in contempt, are questioning this deal with the Devil.

uh.......rotfl....have a listen to this member of that tribe of baby-butchering psychopaths talking about "the Devil".....their filthy anti-"religion" (really: just a criminal conspiracy) are the Devil!  >:(

and...they do the Devil's work and always have done
wrecking nations;
starting wars;
destroying families;
murdering the helpless and the innocent!

i think it was Martin Luther who said if any jew approached me professing Christ, i would throw him into the Rhine with a mill-stone around his neck!   ::)
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: mister bickles on April 04, 2015, 11:34:08 AM

First off, the only english news paper I found that had this information was an Israeli one.  So forgive me if I don't take their word for it.
Secondly, he isn't high ranking.
Mohammad Reza Naqdi, commander of Iran's Basij force is not, by any definition, a man of actual political clout.  He runs the Basij and can't even get a law to force women to wear the veil.  If he's the only one calling for death of Israel, I wouldn't worry.

Iran is a peaceful and prosperous nation which has never threatened any-one;
it tolerates non-Islamic faiths like Christianity and jews live there in peace;
many of the Iranian jews think Israelis and US jews like this "Yakov" are nut-cases and psychos!
the "death to Israel" malarkey is, more likely than not, just that.....malarkey!
(uh.....how would you know what was said unless yr a Farsi speaker?.....OTW...yr just relying on the jew-controlled media for a translation)
as for nukes....well.....first off...you gotta believe that nukes are real;
the evidence i'v looked into recently strongly indicates that they're just a hoax ;
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=2508 (https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=2508)

once again, the jews are endeavouring to get the gullible goyim of the US to do their "dirty work" for them like they did in Iraq;
in fact: what they're really after is starting WWIII because Russia and China will come down very heavily indeed on the side of Iran.....who are quite heavily armed any-way and will, more likely than not, give the US one big, bloody nose!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-4kxbVvecU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_dX4BynutA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXzrz77v2RA
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 04, 2015, 01:23:59 PM
Well, he's on ignore. Pretty sorry excuse for a human being, if all he has time to do is come in here and threaten and insult one person. What I find interesting is that he has all this time to be pissed at 2.2% of the world population. Well, since he hates us so much, he should voluntarily not be vaccinated against things like polio, which vaccination was invented by a Jew, and he should also refuse to accept the Hebrew Bible, which is also our patrimony... I could go on, but why bother?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on April 04, 2015, 04:43:06 PM
Haven't we been over this, Yaakov? Just because X thing was done or invented by a Jew does not mean Jewish culture is responsible for its creation. If that logic were sound, then we could just extrapolate that everything done by Jews was done by humans because Jews are humans and therefore because we are humans we are collectively responsible for everything.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on April 04, 2015, 05:54:09 PM
What do you think of the deal with Iran being forged?

I think that even talking to Iran is the stupidest thing we could possibly do. Just a few days ago, one of their highest ranking generals was talking about wiping Israel off the map, and just a few days before that, they had people in the streets chanting "death to America". I hope Israel decides to take out their reactors. Obama is a traitor to the American people and should be tried for treason, found guilty, and treated as such. Even Arab nations such as Saudi Arabia, the which I normally hold in contempt, are questioning this deal with the Devil.

Why is your side better than theirs? They say call America the Great Satan, you call them the Devil. They say 'Death to America', you hope Israel bombs them. Both sides are war-mongering bastards.

Anyway, why is peacekeeping treason? What, exactly, has Obama done that is treasonous?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 04, 2015, 07:19:50 PM
What do you think of the deal with Iran being forged?

I think that even talking to Iran is the stupidest thing we could possibly do. Just a few days ago, one of their highest ranking generals was talking about wiping Israel off the map, and just a few days before that, they had people in the streets chanting "death to America". I hope Israel decides to take out their reactors. Obama is a traitor to the American people and should be tried for treason, found guilty, and treated as such. Even Arab nations such as Saudi Arabia, the which I normally hold in contempt, are questioning this deal with the Devil.

Why is your side better than theirs? They say call America the Great Satan, you call them the Devil. They say 'Death to America', you hope Israel bombs them. Both sides are war-mongering bastards.

Anyway, why is peacekeeping treason? What, exactly, has Obama done that is treasonous?

I consider Obama a traitor for far more reasons than just betrayal of our ally in the Middle East and coddling up to one of our worst enemies on the entire planet, although that alone would be enough. But, since you asked, let's play a little game, you and I. Let's list a few things, shall we?

To wit:
1. Benghazi.
2. Fast and Furious.
3. His "apology" tour at the beginning of his Aministration.
4. Bowing to the Saudi King.
5. Spending taxpayer money to attempt to prevent Netanyahu from being re-elected. Whether or not you like the Israeli Prime Minister, spending taxpayer money in an attempt to influence another nation's election is, by any definition of the word, illegal. And before anyone starts yapping about AIPAC, AIPAC is not in any way paid for using Israeli government funds. Although it may function in the interest of Jews, and thus, by definition, Israel, the Israeli State did not invent it, nor do they fund it.

I could go on, of course, but those five points are sufficient, I think.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on April 04, 2015, 09:30:02 PM
What do you think of the deal with Iran being forged?

I think that even talking to Iran is the stupidest thing we could possibly do. Just a few days ago, one of their highest ranking generals was talking about wiping Israel off the map, and just a few days before that, they had people in the streets chanting "death to America". I hope Israel decides to take out their reactors. Obama is a traitor to the American people and should be tried for treason, found guilty, and treated as such. Even Arab nations such as Saudi Arabia, the which I normally hold in contempt, are questioning this deal with the Devil.

Why is your side better than theirs? They say call America the Great Satan, you call them the Devil. They say 'Death to America', you hope Israel bombs them. Both sides are war-mongering bastards.

Anyway, why is peacekeeping treason? What, exactly, has Obama done that is treasonous?

I consider Obama a traitor for far more reasons than just betrayal of our ally in the Middle East and coddling up to one of our worst enemies on the entire planet, although that alone would be enough. But, since you asked, let's play a little game, you and I. Let's list a few things, shall we?

To wit:
1. Benghazi. - Unless you have evidence that he knew the compound was going to be attacked and wanted it to happen, you've got nothing.
2. Fast and Furious - A good plan that didn't end well.  Following the guns is a good strategy but somehow they found out the guns were marked.
3. His "apology" tour at the beginning of his Aministration - If an apology is an act of a traitor then clearly no human should ever apologize to another.  It would be an act of personal treason.
4. Bowing to the Saudi King - Yes, let's never show respect for foreign officials. 
5. Spending taxpayer money to attempt to prevent Netanyahu from being re-elected. Whether or not you like the Israeli Prime Minister, spending taxpayer money in an attempt to influence another nation's election is, by any definition of the word, illegal. And before anyone starts yapping about AIPAC, AIPAC is not in any way paid for using Israeli government funds. Although it may function in the interest of Jews, and thus, by definition, Israel, the Israeli State did not invent it, nor do they fund it. - Didn't hear this one.  You'll have to elaborate.  Like which budget code the money came from.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on April 04, 2015, 10:29:51 PM
I've gotta be honest, Yaakov, I find your outrage at Obama's attempts at normalizing relations more disgusting than I do your Hitler complex. Honestly man, just because they're our enemies today doesn't mean they have to be our enemies forever. That attitude is actively evil.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 04, 2015, 10:40:42 PM
I've gotta be honest, Yaakov, I find your outrage at Obama's attempts at normalizing relations more disgusting than I do your Hitler complex. Honestly man, just because they're our enemies today doesn't mean they have to be our enemies forever. That attitude is actively evil.

Unless they are explicitly willing to guarantee that Israel, one of our major allies, has the right to exist, and quit calling for it to be wiped off the map, any normalisation of relations with them is an act of treason against the State for which Obama should be promptly arrested, tried, and punished as a convicted traitor.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 04, 2015, 10:47:40 PM
Let's face it, if country X wanted to wipe our ally Canada off the map, and wanted to "normalise relations" with us, as you put it, which is not at all what Iran wants to do (they have said that themselves), but if country X wanted cooperation from us in any way, wouldn't we demand that they leave Canada alone? How is Israel different, given that it is an ally of ours that is at least as close to us diplomatically as Canada?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on April 04, 2015, 10:56:26 PM
I've gotta be honest, Yaakov, I find your outrage at Obama's attempts at normalizing relations more disgusting than I do your Hitler complex. Honestly man, just because they're our enemies today doesn't mean they have to be our enemies forever. That attitude is actively evil.

Unless they are explicitly willing to guarantee that Israel, one of our major allies, has the right to exist, and quit calling for it to be wiped off the map, any normalisation of relations with them is an act of treason against the State for which Obama should be promptly arrested, tried, and punished as a convicted traitor.

This is completely illogical Yaakov. Do you know what treason means?  Betraying an ally, which is the worst thing you could accuse Obama of in this case, is not treason by any definition.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 04, 2015, 11:03:34 PM
I've gotta be honest, Yaakov, I find your outrage at Obama's attempts at normalizing relations more disgusting than I do your Hitler complex. Honestly man, just because they're our enemies today doesn't mean they have to be our enemies forever. That attitude is actively evil.

Unless they are explicitly willing to guarantee that Israel, one of our major allies, has the right to exist, and quit calling for it to be wiped off the map, any normalisation of relations with them is an act of treason against the State for which Obama should be promptly arrested, tried, and punished as a convicted traitor.

This is completely illogical Yaakov. Do you know what treason means?  Betraying an ally, which is the worst thing you could accuse Obama of in this case, is not treason by any definition.

I am inclined to disagree. And I would feel that way about any ally, whether it were Israel, or England, or Canada, or any other ally we've got. It just so happens that it is Israel in this case. And that does not address the other things I've listed. I don't have time to go into a long defence of everything I listed right now, but taking Benghazi, Hilary stood by while 4 people were killed. She knew what was happening and did nothing to stop it. And since the buck stops at the Oval Office, that guilt lands on him as well as her.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on April 04, 2015, 11:31:18 PM
I've gotta be honest, Yaakov, I find your outrage at Obama's attempts at normalizing relations more disgusting than I do your Hitler complex. Honestly man, just because they're our enemies today doesn't mean they have to be our enemies forever. That attitude is actively evil.

Unless they are explicitly willing to guarantee that Israel, one of our major allies, has the right to exist, and quit calling for it to be wiped off the map, any normalisation of relations with them is an act of treason against the State for which Obama should be promptly arrested, tried, and punished as a convicted traitor.

Okay, but we're talking about ending sanctions we put against them specifically because of their nuclear program in return for them ending their nuclear weapons program. I know you want us to massacre the entire population of Iran, but this in no way betrays our responsibilities toward Israel. Besides, I think you're greatly exaggerating our responsibilities toward Israel. We don't actually have any. We support them because it's convenient for us to do so. If that changed, and if the political climate allowed for it, we'd drop Zion like Beyonce dropped that one album (that is to say suddenly, without any warning). I'm sorry, but that's the truth. Israel isn't special. We don't want another war in the Middle East, and we don't want Iran to get nuclear weapons. If you think Israel comes before those two interests, you're quite frankly just wrong.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on April 05, 2015, 12:27:10 AM
I want Iran to have nukes. Historically, a country that acquired nukes always became more stable and the region became more peaceful. Very recent examples include Israel, which threatened to nuke the entire region and subsequently survived an Egyptian beat-down, and then we have Ukraine, who gave up their nukes only to be invaded by Russia.

Nuclear weapons have only stopped wars, they have never started them.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on April 05, 2015, 12:34:17 AM
I want Iran to have nukes. Historically, a country that acquired nukes always became more stable and the region became more peaceful. Very recent examples include Israel, which threatened to nuke the entire region and subsequently survived an Egyptian beat-down, and then we have Ukraine, who gave up their nukes only to be invaded by Russia.

Nuclear weapons have only stopped wars, they have never started them.

I don't think it's the nukes themselves that stabilize a country, but rather the technological prowess required to make them. Any country that spends enough time and energy on science to develop nuclear weapons and missiles to use them with probably has its shit together.

As for the peace-enforcing possibility, I'm not sure the risk is worth the reward even if the reward exists. Maybe nukes help prevent war, but it only takes one bad egg-nation to fuck up everything for everyone forever. And if I had to choose a nation that would use their nukes offensively, Iran would be in the top 5
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on April 05, 2015, 12:36:26 AM
I don't think it's the nukes themselves that stabilize a country, but rather the technological prowess required to make them. Any country that spends enough time and energy on science to develop nuclear weapons and missiles to use them with probably has its shit together.

"North Korea has its shit together." -Tausami the Great

As for the peace-enforcing possibility, I'm not sure the risk is worth the reward even if the reward exists. Maybe nukes help prevent war, but it only takes one bad egg-nation to fuck up everything for everyone forever. And if I had to choose a nation that would fuck up in that manner, Iran would be in the top 5.

Considering Iran is the most advanced nation in the region, I don't think they would. Their culture opposes Western morality, yes, but they're not stupid.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost of V on April 05, 2015, 12:36:43 AM
Rushy's on a roll tonight.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 05, 2015, 01:31:18 AM
Actually, I have nothing against Persians as such. I don't see any reason to nuke them. ISIS, yes. Persia, no. Their government may be fucked up, but a government is not its people. G-d, if you judged America by the fucktards we currently have in office (ie, Obama), you would have to nuke us within seconds.

No, I don't think we should let the Iranian government get anywhere near getting the bomb, and I do hope Israel takes out their capabilities if they come anywhere close to it. I would prefer, however, that in the taking out of such capabilities, injuries to civilians be kept minimal, as they were with Syria and Iraq when Israel took out their reactors. And again, the need for Israeli action is primarily due to the crazy bastards in charge, as opposed to the people residing there, with whom I have no real quarrel.

But, hey, enough of this discussion for now. My beautiful Bride and I have been married 8 months. And I have never been happier. So, let us end all political discussion for the moment. Do congratulate me on such a beautiful Bride. I wish I could post a picture, but alas, I am not able.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on April 05, 2015, 01:35:40 AM
How do you nuke ISIS?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on April 05, 2015, 01:51:29 AM
How do you nuke ISIS?

It'd actually be pretty easy to do so, but I don't think Israel, the world, or Yaakov would be happy with the results.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 05, 2015, 01:56:41 AM
No, nuking ISIS is a bad idea. You need to go to the areas controlled by them, and Boko Haram, and Al Shabab, and Hamas, and carpet bomb the living shit out of each area for a solid week. First you offer a chance to surrender unconditionally. If that is refused, then you completely wipe out with carpet bombing everything in those areas that exists down to the smallest rabbit. But before you do that, you choose one city to do it as an example. Pick the city that is the headquarters of ISIS and carpet bomb it into complete non-existence for one week. Then offer a second chance for surrender, and inform the rest of the bastards that a second refusal will result in them being turned into what that one city now looks like. Then give them three days to decide.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on April 05, 2015, 02:03:46 AM
No, nuking ISIS is a bad idea. You need to go to the areas controlled by them, and Boko Haram, and Al Shabab, and Hamas, and carpet bomb the living shit out of each area for a solid week. First you offer a chance to surrender unconditionally. If that is refused, then you completely wipe out with carpet bombing everything in those areas that exists down to the smallest rabbit. But before you do that, you choose one city to do it as an example. Pick the city that is the headquarters of ISIS and carpet bomb it into complete non-existence for one week. Then offer a second chance for surrender, and inform the rest of the bastards that a second refusal will result in them being turned into what that one city now looks like. Then give them three days to decide.

I don't think you understand just how difficult that actually is.  The amount of bombs/missiles required would surely be far greater than what exists in current arsenals.  And while it would be possible with some major stock piling, you're still going to miss a lot of people.  Also, you're going to get a lot of refugees.  Plus, if you threatened to do that to Palestine, exactly how soon do you think it would be before everyone in Palestine takes up arms, storms the Israeli borders, and wipes the floor with your unarmed citizens?

The same would happen all over the middle east.  Refugees and massive air strikes.

Also, do you really think some of these areas don't have anti-air capabilities?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 05, 2015, 02:12:22 AM
I seriously doubt if ISIS has much in the way of anti-air capabilities, and I know that Gaza doesn't. They can't even shoot a rocket right. The rockets that they fire at Israel more often then not end up landing in Gaza, according to analysts of the last war. In fact, I would choose Gaza City as the city to make an example of, rather than the capital of ISIS, but that's just a personal choice. I'm not one of the Generals. And I think Israel is more than prepared to have a bunch of poorly armed "Palestinians" attempt to attack it. They have what is basically the best military in the world. They could very easily resolve the "Palestinian" Problem. They simply choose not to, because of the bleeding heart idiots in the rest of the world.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 05, 2015, 02:14:03 AM
How do you storm a border that has a huge security fence?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on April 05, 2015, 02:14:52 AM
How do you storm a border that has a huge security fence?

Ask the Mexicans.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 05, 2015, 02:15:37 AM
*GRIN* Israel has armed guards on theirs. That actually will shoot to kill.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on April 05, 2015, 02:17:09 AM
Hardcore jews.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on April 05, 2015, 02:17:13 AM
*GRIN* Israel has armed guards on theirs. That actually will shoot to kill.

That's not a good thing.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 05, 2015, 02:18:25 AM
*GRIN* Israel has armed guards on theirs. That actually will shoot to kill.

That's not a good thing.

You are entitled to your opinion.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on April 05, 2015, 02:20:41 AM
Killing is a good thing.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 05, 2015, 02:21:24 AM
Killing is a good thing.

In defence of one's country, yes. Not just randomly, no.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on April 05, 2015, 02:22:54 AM
Is that in the Torah?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on April 05, 2015, 02:25:24 AM
I seriously doubt if ISIS has much in the way of anti-air capabilities, and I know that Gaza doesn't. They can't even shoot a rocket right. The rockets that they fire at Israel more often then not end up landing in Gaza, according to analysts of the last war. In fact, I would choose Gaza City as the city to make an example of, rather than the capital of ISIS, but that's just a personal choice. I'm not one of the Generals. And I think Israel is more than prepared to have a bunch of poorly armed "Palestinians" attempt to attack it. They have what is basically the best military in the world. They could very easily resolve the "Palestinian" Problem. They simply choose not to, because of the bleeding heart idiots in the rest of the world.

I think you seriously underestimate the force of hundreds of thousands of desperate, scared, and angry people.

Also, Israel has, according to Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces)

176,500 active military personnel with 445,000 in reserve.

Sure they'll have sizable numbers but against the massive flood of people not to mention the retaliation from all the other middle eastern countries.  Your army isn't going to stop that kind of onslaught, not without US support. And all it will take is the bodies of some kids on national TV to cut off that life-line.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on April 05, 2015, 02:26:02 AM
I feel like there was some kind of tablets with rules on them or something. Important rules. Hmm. Oh well. I'm sure they had lots of exception clauses scribbled beneath them.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 05, 2015, 02:32:52 AM
You both forget. Israel can mobilise its entire population in a matter of minutes. Remember. 6 Arab armies attacked in '48 and lost. They pre-emptively attacked in '67 and the Arabs lost. They were attacked (by surprise, totally unprepared, since it was Yom Kippur) in '73 and the Arabs still lost. If the "Palestinians" attempted to attack, they would probably get their asses handed to them, and if any other Arab nation tried it, they would likely face a repeat of the last three times they attempted it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 05, 2015, 02:34:27 AM
And it should be noted that the USA did not send troops on any of those occasions.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on April 05, 2015, 02:34:33 AM
I found those rules.

(https://mercytoworlds.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/adip-465_copy__14891_zoom.jpg)

Oh, damn. Well it looks like #5 does not in fact have any exception clauses appended to it. That's a bummer.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 05, 2015, 02:36:24 AM
Actually, the translation is inaccurate. The Hebrew actually reads, "Thou shalt do no murder". Killing in defence of the State is not murder. Ergo, no violation,
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on April 05, 2015, 02:36:44 AM
I seriously doubt if ISIS has much in the way of anti-air capabilities, and I know that Gaza doesn't. They can't even shoot a rocket right. The rockets that they fire at Israel more often then not end up landing in Gaza, according to analysts of the last war. In fact, I would choose Gaza City as the city to make an example of, rather than the capital of ISIS, but that's just a personal choice. I'm not one of the Generals. And I think Israel is more than prepared to have a bunch of poorly armed "Palestinians" attempt to attack it. They have what is basically the best military in the world. They could very easily resolve the "Palestinian" Problem. They simply choose not to, because of the bleeding heart idiots in the rest of the world.

ISIS have downed Jordanian fighters and damaged US fighters. The USAF has also elected to use F-22's over Syria in ISIS bombing missions. Not because ISIS presents a threat, but because Assad is perfectly happy to shoot down US aircraft.

They're not extremely well equipped, but they shouldn't be disregarded. The US takes them seriously enough.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on April 05, 2015, 02:40:00 AM
Actually, the translation is inaccurate. The Hebrew actually reads, "Thou shalt do no murder". Killing in defence of the State is not murder. Ergo, no violation,

That sounds like a pedantic interpretation designed to shield your own conscious from guilt. It's things like this that make it pretty obvious your religion was designed and implemented by other people.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 05, 2015, 02:41:44 AM
Come at them with every single plane we've got over their headquarters city for the purpose of carpet bombing the holy shit out of it, and see how long their "anti-air capabilities" last. They would be dogmeat in a matter of about six hours. Then just continue carpet bombing the city for a straight week to make sure absolutely nothing else is left by the time you are done.

Actually, the translation is inaccurate. The Hebrew actually reads, "Thou shalt do no murder". Killing in defence of the State is not murder. Ergo, no violation,

That sounds like a pedantic interpretation designed to shield your own conscious from guilt.

Not at all. Simple linguistics. I know my languages.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on April 05, 2015, 02:44:52 AM
Come at them with every single plane we've got over their headquarters city for the purpose of carpet bombing the holy shit out of it, and see how long their "anti-air capabilities" last. They would be dogmeat in a matter of about six hours. Then just continue carpet bombing the city for a straight week to make sure absolutely nothing else is left by the time you are done.

Actually, the translation is inaccurate. The Hebrew actually reads, "Thou shalt do no murder". Killing in defence of the State is not murder. Ergo, no violation,

That sounds like a pedantic interpretation designed to shield your own conscious from guilt.

Not at all. Simple linguistics. I know my languages.

There's a reason the air campaign against ISIS has relied almost entirely on PGMs. Carpet bombing is not a particularly modern strategy; it's costly, wasteful and often kills more civilians than combatants.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on April 05, 2015, 02:46:41 AM
Not at all. Simple linguistics. I know my languages.

It is the equivalent of saying "Thou shalt not kill" so I define my enemies as demons that are not alive and therefore can't be killed anyway. I once again am confused that Jews need to find loopholes in their own religion and think that if such a god existed, this god would be fine with you jumping through pedantic hoops to avoid following his rules.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 05, 2015, 02:48:53 AM
Like I said. The purpose is to destroy every living thing in the city. And the city itself. To completely level it. And then to spread salt across it so that it can never be rebuilt. This is total war, Roman Style, with modern weaponry. We had to go Dresden quite literally on Germany, and it worked. That is what we are going to have to do here. Might as well get it done sooner rather than later.

Not at all. Simple linguistics. I know my languages.

It is the equivalent of saying "Thou shalt not kill" so I define my enemies as demons that are not alive and therefore can't be killed anyway. I once again am confused that Jews need to find loopholes in their own religion and think that if such a god existed, this god would be fine with you jumping through pedantic hoops to avoid following his rules.

Its not a loophole. Murdering and killing in self defence are two different things.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on April 05, 2015, 02:51:59 AM
Murdering and killing in self defence are two different things.

That's an opinion.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 05, 2015, 02:53:35 AM
Not at all. If you kill me because you don't like the way I look, that is murder. If you kill me for trying to rape your wife, that is justified homicide. Any legal system would agree with me.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on April 05, 2015, 02:55:10 AM
Not at all. If you kill me because you don't like the way I look, that is murder. If you kill me for trying to rape your wife, that is justified homicide. Any legal system would agree with me.

I didn't realize that what makes sense in a legal system makes sense for god, since I assumed god was morally superior to humans. My bad.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 05, 2015, 02:56:45 AM
Not at all. If you kill me because you don't like the way I look, that is murder. If you kill me for trying to rape your wife, that is justified homicide. Any legal system would agree with me.

I didn't realize that what makes sense in a legal system makes sense for god, since I assumed god was morally superior to humans. My bad.

Come on! G-d is, first and foremost, a G-d of Justice, is he not? He is also a G-d of Mercy, but no moreso than of justice.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on April 05, 2015, 02:58:12 AM
Come on! G-d is, first and foremost, a G-d of Justice, is he not? He is also a G-d of Mercy, but no moreso than of justice.

It sounds more like he is the god of your justice, specifically.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on April 05, 2015, 02:58:15 AM
Like I said. The purpose is to destroy every living thing in the city. And the city itself. To completely level it. And then to spread salt across it so that it can never be rebuilt. This is total war, Roman Style, with modern weaponry. We had to go Dresden quite literally on Germany, and it worked. That is what we are going to have to do here. Might as well get it done sooner rather than later.

It's not total war at all, it's isolated air strikes against ISIS controlled facilities and targets. Technology has come a long way since Dresden (which, by the way, is considered a war crime by some historians).
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 05, 2015, 03:00:40 AM
Like I said. The purpose is to destroy every living thing in the city. And the city itself. To completely level it. And then to spread salt across it so that it can never be rebuilt. This is total war, Roman Style, with modern weaponry. We had to go Dresden quite literally on Germany, and it worked. That is what we are going to have to do here. Might as well get it done sooner rather than later.

It's not total war at all, it's isolated air strikes against ISIS controlled facilities and targets. Technology has come a long way since Dresden (which, by the way, is considered a war crime by some historians).

Well, that is precisely the problem. You can't win a war without Total War. Anybody who doesn't believe that is a fool. That is why we haven't won a war since 1945.

Come on! G-d is, first and foremost, a G-d of Justice, is he not? He is also a G-d of Mercy, but no moreso than of justice.

It sounds more like he is the god of your justice, specifically.

No, it just sounds like you have issues.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on April 05, 2015, 03:11:39 AM
I don't think it's the nukes themselves that stabilize a country, but rather the technological prowess required to make them. Any country that spends enough time and energy on science to develop nuclear weapons and missiles to use them with probably has its shit together.

"North Korea has its shit together." -Tausami the Great

As for the peace-enforcing possibility, I'm not sure the risk is worth the reward even if the reward exists. Maybe nukes help prevent war, but it only takes one bad egg-nation to fuck up everything for everyone forever. And if I had to choose a nation that would fuck up in that manner, Iran would be in the top 5.

Considering Iran is the most advanced nation in the region, I don't think they would. Their culture opposes Western morality, yes, but they're not stupid.

Are you saying that North Korea has become more stable since it developed nuclear technology? I thought we were just ignoring them as the outlier in the situation. Anyway, they haven't developed the missile technology to use them yet so they don't really count at all.

I'm not sure how not-stupid they are. They knowingly stepped into a situation where the UN would impose extremely harsh restrictions on them. That doesn't sound like something an intelligent, self-aware country would do.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vindictus on April 05, 2015, 03:19:31 AM
Like I said. The purpose is to destroy every living thing in the city. And the city itself. To completely level it. And then to spread salt across it so that it can never be rebuilt. This is total war, Roman Style, with modern weaponry. We had to go Dresden quite literally on Germany, and it worked. That is what we are going to have to do here. Might as well get it done sooner rather than later.

It's not total war at all, it's isolated air strikes against ISIS controlled facilities and targets. Technology has come a long way since Dresden (which, by the way, is considered a war crime by some historians).

Well, that is precisely the problem. You can't win a war without Total War. Anybody who doesn't believe that is a fool. That is why we haven't won a war since 1945.


No matter how conflict with ISIS is fought, it can never be referred to as total war because they lack the capital of a nation.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 05, 2015, 03:25:16 AM
The fact is that they have a capital where their "Caliph" lives. He needs to be captured alive, and because he has allowed women and girl children to be used as sex slaves, he needs to be publicly raped with a broomstick up his arse while his followers are forced to watch. Then he needs to be publicly executed in the most painful way that can be devised, again, while his followers are forced to watch, and all of this should be televised for the benefit of those who can't see it in person, but are prisoners and who should be forced to watch due to their own crimes against women and girls. And then their capital should be laid waste.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: mister bickles on April 05, 2015, 03:40:01 AM
Well, he's on ignore. Pretty sorry excuse for a human being, if all he has time to do is come in here and threaten and insult one person. What I find interesting is that he has all this time to be pissed at 2.2% of the world population. Well, since he hates us so much, he should voluntarily not be vaccinated against things like polio, which vaccination was invented by a Jew, and he should also refuse to accept the Hebrew Bible, which is also our patrimony... I could go on, but why bother?

you gotta wonder how jews have time to comment on Forums like this.....

after all....they have quite a busy schedule of:
ritual child killing (especially of white, Christian children);
"vaccinating" goyim babies with hideous diseases to that they become either paralytics, autistics or just plain statistics!
murdering lots of goyim babies in their abortion HOLOCAUST factories;
starting wars of aggression so that more dumb, goyim can be HOLOCAUSTED!
blaspheming the Name of Jesus Christ in their innumerable TeleVitz and HollyWeird filth productions;
sacrificing to their g-d, the Devil;
making disgusting porn';
confiscating fire-arms from the goyim,;
promoting nation-wrecking memes like feminism, homosexuality and "multi-culturalism"
(except, of course,  for their own crappy little country....the Talmudic gangster statelet of Isn'tReal)
and brutally torturing dumb animals to death with their vile, sick "kosher slaughter"

(i guess they'd need more than a lousy six million jews in the US to do all that stuff....how abt 36million instead, eh?...."six million" sounds so 'jewy'....such a lie, oy vey!  ::) )

such lovely people they are already!   >:(
oy gevalt!

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on April 05, 2015, 03:42:55 AM
Are you saying that North Korea has become more stable since it developed nuclear technology? I thought we were just ignoring them as the outlier in the situation. Anyway, they haven't developed the missile technology to use them yet so they don't really count at all.

I'm not saying it is more stable, but it hasn't really degraded much. (not that I imagine it could)

I'm not sure how not-stupid they are. They knowingly stepped into a situation where the UN would impose extremely harsh restrictions on them. That doesn't sound like something an intelligent, self-aware country would do.

Now you're implying that Russia is not an intelligent, self-aware country. I'm really confused about how you imagine foreign countries.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: mister bickles on April 05, 2015, 03:45:18 AM
yr "buying into" the jew lie of nuclear weapons......

http://nuke-lies.org (http://nuke-lies.org) ;
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 05, 2015, 03:46:26 AM
Oh, here comes our friendly neighbourhood anti-Semitic Troll! He's on ignore, of course. But what a threatened little man. So afraid of 2.2% of the world's population! I love the fact that he is so terrified of us.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 05, 2015, 05:46:36 AM
You see, I actually like anti-Semites for one reason. I mean, sure, they are dangerous, and occasionally need to be arrested for doing stupid things (or executed by order of the State, when they do something particularly egregious), but otherwise, I rather like them. They single-handedly demonstrate the superiority of the Jew over themselves. Now, please note, I did not say over everybody. Gentiles have absolutely the same value as any Jew. My wife is a Gentile, and is the worthiest human on Earth.

But the anti-Semite demonstrates very blatantly his inability to use his brain. Clearly, he could never be a Jew. We are superior to him in every way. This, of course, is no insult, but simply a statement of fact.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on April 05, 2015, 03:12:53 PM
Oh, here comes our friendly neighbourhood anti-Semitic Troll! He's on ignore, of course. But what a threatened little man. So afraid of 2.2% of the world's population! I love the fact that he is so terrified of us.

That's not how ignore works. Also, I'm not sure you entirely understand the concept of a troll.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 05, 2015, 10:45:32 PM
Well, he is a Troll, since his purpose is strictly to come onto a thread dedicated to Jews and piss off a Jew. And ignore works however I want it to work. Let's be honest. He is afraid of 2.2% of the population. He is terrified, in fact. So terrified, that he, while he was not on ingnore, was saying so much BS it was absolutely incredible. I expect he's still at it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on April 05, 2015, 10:47:40 PM
Tausami is pointing out that you aren't ignoring him, so saying "he's on ignore" is irrelevant. You might be ignoring the content of his posts, but let's be honest, you were doing that before without the aid of the ignore feature.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on April 05, 2015, 10:48:38 PM
Well, he is a Troll, since his purpose is strictly to come onto a thread dedicated to Jews and piss off a Jew. And ignore works however I want it to work. Let's be honest. He is afraid of 2.2% of the population. He is terrified, in fact. So terrified, that he, while he was not on ingnore, was saying so much BS it was absolutely incredible. I expect he's still at it.

Okay, but if he's a troll he isn't afraid of jews. He just likes pissing you off, and does so by pretending to be anti-Semitic. If he's genuinely anti-Semitic, he isn't a troll. Those two things are mutually exclusive.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on April 06, 2015, 01:19:28 AM
Not really. He could be mildly anti-semitic in reality but playing it up for the epic troll factor.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 06, 2015, 02:12:40 AM
PP, I think he can be both. He can hate Jews AND be a Troll.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tau on April 06, 2015, 03:13:06 AM
Are you saying that North Korea has become more stable since it developed nuclear technology? I thought we were just ignoring them as the outlier in the situation. Anyway, they haven't developed the missile technology to use them yet so they don't really count at all.

I'm not saying it is more stable, but it hasn't really degraded much. (not that I imagine it could)

I'm not sure how not-stupid they are. They knowingly stepped into a situation where the UN would impose extremely harsh restrictions on them. That doesn't sound like something an intelligent, self-aware country would do.

Now you're implying that Russia is not an intelligent, self-aware country. I'm really confused about how you imagine foreign countries.

Russia knows it's powerful enough to fight sanctions fairly successfully in the UN and elsewhere. They're a completely different case. They're permanent members of the Security Council, for christ's sake. Iran, on the other hand, is pretty much helpless in the face of the international community.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on April 06, 2015, 03:23:21 AM
Russia knows it's powerful enough to fight sanctions fairly successfully in the UN and elsewhere. They're a completely different case. They're permanent members of the Security Council, for christ's sake. Iran, on the other hand, is pretty much helpless in the face of the international community.

There's another thread for this, which I literally posted the same post you responded to in the opening.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 06, 2015, 03:25:53 AM
Tausami has a point here. Russia is a lot more relevant than Iran. In spite of my antipathy toward the UN (get the US and Israel out of the UN and all other "international" bodies, and get them out of the US, except for military agreements), even I know that Russia can have its way there as often as we can.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: mister bickles on April 06, 2015, 09:30:15 AM
tell all the good folks here what kol nidre means, jew!   >:(
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 06, 2015, 10:30:18 AM
Very simple. All Vows. Any vow made to G-d that we can't keep is released. It has nothing to do with vows made to other men, and ESPECIALLY not vows made to Gentiles. If you had taken the time to look at a prayer book instead of just spouting your mouth, you would know that. In fact, if you look at many Russian Prayer Books, they say, in Hebrew, Yiddish, and Russian, precisely that.

And I was always taught that if you owe $100 (for example) to a Jew, and $100 to a Gentile, and you only have $100, you need to make arrangements to deal with the Jew some other time, so you can pay the Gentile now. This is in order that you might not be accused of cheating and bring yourself or the whole Jewish people into disrepute.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on April 06, 2015, 10:50:28 AM
wtf you said you have him on ignore
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 06, 2015, 10:52:29 AM
I did. But I saw that one. Don't worry. I won't insult him. Its good I saw that one. Kol Nidre has been a SERIOUS accusation against us for years. And fairly enough, if all you do is read the prayer out of context. I have to admit, the first time I read it, out of context, I was confused.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 06, 2015, 10:53:42 AM
When I use my phone, I am on the WAP2 Interface. Ignore doesn't work on that. I switched back to my computer, but I still had to read it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on April 06, 2015, 01:04:20 PM
When I use my phone, I am on the WAP2 Interface. Ignore doesn't work on that. I switched back to my computer, but I still had to read it.
This actually makes no sense.
WAP2 is a WiFi encryption.
Ignore is a forum level flag that doesn't display a specific user's post.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on April 06, 2015, 01:27:08 PM
Maybe the script that hides ignored users just doens't work properly in his phone web browser.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: xasop on April 06, 2015, 01:31:30 PM
This actually makes no sense.
WAP2 is a WiFi encryption.
Ignore is a forum level flag that doesn't display a specific user's post.

He means this: http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?action=forum;wap2

WAP2 isn't WiFi encryption. You're thinking of WPA2.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on April 06, 2015, 01:33:40 PM
WAP2 is a WiFi encryption.
I think you're thinking of WPA2.

The WAP2 interface is what SMF displays for older phones. You can see it here: http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?action=forum;wap2

EDIT: *shakes fist at Parsifal*
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on April 06, 2015, 01:57:53 PM
A correction so sweet, Dave had to hear it at least twice.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on April 06, 2015, 02:29:14 PM
This actually makes no sense.
WAP2 is a WiFi encryption.
Ignore is a forum level flag that doesn't display a specific user's post.

He means this: http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?action=forum;wap2

WAP2 isn't WiFi encryption. You're thinking of WPA2.
God Damnit!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 06, 2015, 04:36:43 PM
Don't worry, people. It's no big deal. So I occasionally see what he says. Sometimes, especially when it comes to things like that, its helpful. Here's my blanket advice. When he comes up with weird shit about Jews and calls it fact, I would ask me first before I accept it as such. The Kol Nidre Prayer is a perfect example of one that can be take and twisted out of context very easily. I am sure that next you will probably hear about "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion", which were supposedly written by Rabbis as a secret treatise on how to take over the world. In fact, its a forgery of the Okhrana, the Czarist Secret Police from about 1871. After that he'll probably accuse the Talmud of saying its ok to rape three year old girls. They usually cite a non-existent section of the Tractate on Marriage for that one.

Seriously, I find it really humourous how much power people think we've got. If 2.2% of the world really has that much power over 97.8% of the world, the rest of you have got to be a bunch of fucking morons! Obviously I don't really believe that. But how can we have that kind of control, and still manage to allow 1/3 of our population to be annihilated in 12 years? Clearly we aren't that good with our control. Something obviously went wrong.

Anyway, my take on Mister Bickles. I think he needs a seriously long nap. He seems tired.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Mickey Richardson on April 24, 2015, 10:04:19 AM
What does מָגֵן mean?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Lord Dave on April 24, 2015, 10:45:02 AM
Don't worry, people. It's no big deal. So I occasionally see what he says. Sometimes, especially when it comes to things like that, its helpful. Here's my blanket advice. When he comes up with weird shit about Jews and calls it fact, I would ask me first before I accept it as such. The Kol Nidre Prayer is a perfect example of one that can be take and twisted out of context very easily. I am sure that next you will probably hear about "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion", which were supposedly written by Rabbis as a secret treatise on how to take over the world. In fact, its a forgery of the Okhrana, the Czarist Secret Police from about 1871. After that he'll probably accuse the Talmud of saying its ok to rape three year old girls. They usually cite a non-existent section of the Tractate on Marriage for that one.

Seriously, I find it really humourous how much power people think we've got. If 2.2% of the world really has that much power over 97.8% of the world, the rest of you have got to be a bunch of fucking morons! Obviously I don't really believe that. But how can we have that kind of control, and still manage to allow 1/3 of our population to be annihilated in 12 years? Clearly we aren't that good with our control. Something obviously went wrong.

Anyway, my take on Mister Bickles. I think he needs a seriously long nap. He seems tired.
You weren't wiped out.  You were able to get the US into the war, which likely saved the Jewish race.

As for control, money is power and you said it yourself: Jews are good with money.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: JRowe on June 19, 2015, 08:47:53 PM
If circumcision is the sign of the Covenant with God, does this mean women cannot be as close to God as men?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on June 20, 2015, 03:26:07 AM
Good question, but no. Circumcision is simply a symbol of the Covenant. Why that particular thing was chosen I am not certain. The fact that it can only be done to males is obvious. But in fact, Judaism believes that women are inherently more spiritual than men. We need the reminder of the Covenant. Women do not. Men, for example, are required to pray three times a day. Women need pray only once a day. Men need to go to the synagogue. Women may pray at home. It has been determined by our scholars that women have a connection with G-d that men lack.

On a sexual level, Judaism is much more liberal than Christianity. Both partners in a marriage have rights over each other. My wife has rights over me, and I over her. She has the right to sex, and to the expectation that it will be pleasurable to her. I have the same rights. If one party wants sex, and the other party is not ill or menstruating, then they are expected to provide it. And it is expected that each party fulfill that obligation toward the other. This is especially true on the Sabbath.

When men say in the prayers, "Blessed art thou, O L-rd our G-d, King of the Universe, for that thou hast not made me a woman," that is not intended as a rudeness. In fact, the reason we say it is because there is no man who could fulfill the duties of a woman. Women have it much harder than men. All men have to do is work a job, pray and study in synagogue, and be the master of the house.

A woman has to carry children before birth, give birth, do the lion's share of the raising of said children, keep a kosher home, do most of the cooking and cleaning, take care of her man, and on, and on, and on. What man can do all that a woman has to do? Our job in life is MUCH, MUCH easier than that of a woman's lot, and we Jews are smart enough to know that.

So, not all is as it seems. Westerners don't get Judaism at all. Hell, nowadays, many Jews (Liberal Jews) don't get it. I hope that explanation helped some.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on June 20, 2015, 10:37:59 PM
Quote
A woman has to carry children before birth, give birth, do the lion's share of the raising of said children, keep a kosher home, do most of the cooking and cleaning, take care of her man, and on, and on, and on. What man can do all that a woman has to do? Our job in life is MUCH, MUCH easier than that of a woman's lot, and we Jews are smart enough to know that.

But not smart enough to know that the only one of those duties a man can not also perform is carry a child?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on June 20, 2015, 11:13:35 PM
Well, its kind of hard for a man to take care of his man, unless he routinely drops the soap, but that's another matter. And I assure you, with my wife injured  and me having taken over almost all feminine duties in the home at present, I have come to realise that I shall NEVER do them as well as my wife does them. You can say what you like. And my response is that you have your head in the sand. When you are bashing Judaism, remember, we have been here for 3800 years, and will continue to be here long after atheism and every other current religion or belief has either disappeared or changed so much that it is unrecognisable.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on June 20, 2015, 11:30:36 PM
Well, its kind of hard for a man to take care of his man, unless he routinely drops the soap, but that's another matter. And I assure you, with my wife injured  and me having taken over almost all feminine duties in the home at present, I have come to realise that I shall NEVER do them as well as my wife does them. You can say what you like. And my response is that you have your head in the sand. When you are bashing Judaism, remember, we have been here for 3800 years, and will continue to be here long after atheism and every other current religion or belief has either disappeared or changed so much that it is unrecognisable.

I am more bashing antiquated gender roles and how you patted yourself on the back for having them but please feel free to turn it in to an attack on your religion.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on June 20, 2015, 11:37:00 PM
You have a personal problem, think. There is nothing wrong with traditional gender roles.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on June 20, 2015, 11:44:16 PM
You have a personal problem, think. There is nothing wrong with traditional gender roles.

Nope, but there is something wrong with thinking that they are intrinsically true.  It is a delusion.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on June 21, 2015, 12:02:07 AM
I don't know, Rama, I think your narcissism is beginning to display itself. The Torah tells us how men and women are to interact. Now, either Judaism is an inspired religion or not. If it is not, then what the fuck is the point? But if it is, then we do what the Torah tells us to do. Your issues with that are not my problem, but rather, your problem. I suggest you keep them that way. The Torah was not meant for the Goy anyway. So don't worry about it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on June 21, 2015, 04:22:27 AM
I don't know, Rama, I think your narcissism is beginning to display itself. The Torah tells us how men and women are to interact. Now, either Judaism is an inspired religion or not. If it is not, then what the fuck is the point? But if it is, then we do what the Torah tells us to do. Your issues with that are not my problem, but rather, your problem. I suggest you keep them that way. The Torah was not meant for the Goy anyway. So don't worry about it.

You are cherry picking now. Some parts of the Torah you feel fit to ignore because it was for a Bronze Age human culture but now it the Torah and it is inspired and you do what it tells you. Must be nice to be able to turn that switch on and off. How do you do that?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on June 21, 2015, 12:13:43 PM
I'm not cherry picking at all. The only thing we have put into abeyance at all would be some of the punishments. And, to be straight, in a land ruled by Torah Law (Halacha) you never know, there might be a place for such. I won't know until Messiah gets here. That is the only way  to have a truly Halachic State. Without a King descended from David, without a Temple, without knowing who the High Priest is, etc, we can't have a Halachic State.

And the fact is that about half of Israel is secular. You can't have a Halachic State with half the population being secular. There are also non-Jews in the State. Until they have been removed, or informed as to what is expected of them, a Halachic State wouldn't even be fair.

I'm all in favour of strict Torah observance when the time is right, but now is not the time. So when the laws can be enforced, we will do that. Until then we will enforce what we can of Torah, and leave the remainder until a later date.

Of course, do keep in mind, if you go to KJ, don't try to wear shorts and a Tee. You will probably have rather large rocks launched at you by quite unappreciative Jews over your  lack of sufficient attire. So there is Torah, and then there is Torah.

It all comes down to the Messiah coming. When he does, the Temple will be built, the animal sacrifices will be renewed, and all the Torah laws will come into effect. At that point, any secularist, or any non-Jew, who happens to be in the way, will need to get clear or be made to get out of the way. It is that simple.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on June 21, 2015, 04:40:04 PM
Well then I for one am glad that the Messiah is almost certainly a wishful thought and nothing more. Your world sounds dark, oppressive and terrible.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on June 22, 2015, 01:13:14 PM
Quote
At that point, any secularist, or any non-Jew, who happens to be in the way, will need to get clear or be made to get out of the way. It is that simple

Hallowed be the Ori.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tom on June 27, 2015, 10:46:27 PM
What does מָגֵן mean?

It means magen = shield, often used in the term magen david = the shield of david = the star of david.

The hexagram you can see in the flag of Israel. It has to do with Kabbalah and the Sefer Yetzirah (book of formation/creation) showing the hexagram in a cube.

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vongeo on June 27, 2015, 11:12:52 PM
Is your name joel?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete on July 05, 2015, 10:35:48 PM
In the Heaven thread, someone actually suggested this. If anyone has any questions about Jews & Judaism, I'll try to answer. I'm neither the most brilliant nor the most foolish Jew in the world. I like to think I'm reasonably well informed. If I can't answer your question, I'll tell you that too. So, fire ahead. If nobody does, that won't offend me either. This is just an offer.

I have two questions, if you don't mind.

As a Christian, I DO NOT believe in the trinity doctrine, since they say there are three persons as God, while YHWH himself has said the he is the only one (as God). And even Jesus said that God is only one (Mark. 12:29)...

The Christian pastors say all over the world that the word "Elohim" is a proof of that God is three persons since it is a plural form. Is it true that all nouns, verbs  and adjectives connected with the word "Elohim" in the Tanakh is ALWAYS in a singular form when God is talking about himself? And if this is the case, do you agree that the plural form is no proof at all of that HE is schizophrenic as the Father, Son and the holy spirit?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on July 05, 2015, 11:10:50 PM
In the Heaven thread, someone actually suggested this. If anyone has any questions about Jews & Judaism, I'll try to answer. I'm neither the most brilliant nor the most foolish Jew in the world. I like to think I'm reasonably well informed. If I can't answer your question, I'll tell you that too. So, fire ahead. If nobody does, that won't offend me either. This is just an offer.

I have two questions, if you don't mind.

As a Christian, I DO NOT believe in the trinity doctrine, since they say there are three persons as God, while YHWH himself has said the he is the only one (as God). And even Jesus said that God is only one (Mark. 12:29)...

The Christian pastors say all over the world that the word "Elohim" is a proof of that God is three persons since it is a plural form. Is it true that all nouns, verbs  and adjectives connected with the word "Elohim" in the Tanakh is ALWAYS in a singular form when God is talking about himself?

"Elohim" is a grammatically plural noun, it is true. However, the Rabbis have always understood it to mean that God is speaking in terms of the Royal We, as when Queen Elizabeth says something to the affect of "We are pleased with your report." She certainly is not suggesting that there is more than one of her. Accordingly, so it is with G-d.

Quote
And if this is the case, do you agree that the plural form is no proof at all of that HE is schizophrenic as the Father, Son and the holy spirit?

I certainly do agree, most whole-heartedly.

Now, to be fair, there is a Liberal argument, that I myself do not accept, but I shall present it just so it cannot be said that I haven't presented all sides. Liberal Jews, of which I do not count myself one (I classify myself as a traditional Jew, with Orthodox tendencies), have argued that in the Bible (the Jewish Bible, ie, the TaNaKh), when the authors of the Torah (these are Jews who accept the Four Source Theory E,P,J,D of authorship of the Torah; I do not. I personally believe that Moses wrote the Torah under divine guidance from G-d) use the term "Elohim", G-d is referring to himself and the Angels, or the "Divine Beings" (Angels, basically). But even these Jews don't think that G-d is talking to himself as a Trinity, or some perverse schizophrenic nature of himself.

Allow me to please reiterate that I in NO way share views with the Modernist Jews. I find their views distasteful in the extreme. But even they do not hold the idea that G-d is plural.

G-d is inalterably, unavoidably, absolutely, and positively, One. He can't possibly be anything else. To make him something else is to commit idolatry. Or at least that is the general point of view among Jews. Trinitarian Christians only narrowly avoid being stamped as idolators. They manage to avoid this because we do recognise that to them, Jesus IS G-d, not a different G-d, but G-d. As much as we find the belief unacceptable, because it is the Abrahamic G-d they are talking about, we are not inclined to make them idolators, although they get about as close as you can get to it, without actually doing it. Such a belief should be actively fought against, as it is injurious to the spiritual health of the believer thereof. On the other hand, there are far worse beliefs one could have, I suppose.

I hope that helps.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tom on July 06, 2015, 09:24:04 AM
In the Heaven thread, someone actually suggested this. If anyone has any questions about Jews & Judaism, I'll try to answer. I'm neither the most brilliant nor the most foolish Jew in the world. I like to think I'm reasonably well informed. If I can't answer your question, I'll tell you that too. So, fire ahead. If nobody does, that won't offend me either. This is just an offer.

I have two questions, if you don't mind.

As a Christian, I DO NOT believe in the trinity doctrine, since they say there are three persons as God, while YHWH himself has said the he is the only one (as God). And even Jesus said that God is only one (Mark. 12:29)...

The Christian pastors say all over the world that the word "Elohim" is a proof of that God is three persons since it is a plural form. Is it true that all nouns, verbs  and adjectives connected with the word "Elohim" in the Tanakh is ALWAYS in a singular form when God is talking about himself? And if this is the case, do you agree that the plural form is no proof at all of that HE is schizophrenic as the Father, Son and the holy spirit?

Yes, Elohim is plural. El = God and Elohim = Gods. That's why they also say: "Let us make man in our image".
In many verses in the Tanach the word "EL" is used for "God". So, when the word Elohim is used, the writer is talking about "Gods".

There are many 'Gods'. If there is something to this story, then these 'Gods' are intelligent creatures who manipulated the Life Energy.
What kind of Life Forms are we? Maybe 'Fallen' Lifeforms who exploit each other and are exploited by these 'Gods'?
Whatever it is, we are living in a strange flat environment.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on July 06, 2015, 12:47:52 PM
TOM, w/o trying to sound unfriendly, when the Torah uses the singular, that just means G-d is NOT using the Royal We in that instance. He doesn't, always. And forgive me if I say that debating theological points w/ a Jew who has lost his Faith (you), which puts you on my list of self-hating Jews, is not high on my list of things to do. There is ultimately no point to it. I have just sat shomer for 2 hrs & I'm tired. Go argue w/ someone who cares. Pete wants a true Jewish answer, I assume, as opposed to your atheist crap, @ least I hope he does.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tom on July 06, 2015, 12:57:09 PM
TOM, w/o trying to sound unfriendly, when the Torah uses the singular, that just means G-d is NOT using the Royal We in that instance. He doesn't, always. And forgive me if I say that debating theological points w/ a Jew who has lost his Faith (you), which puts you on my list of self-hating Jews, is not high on my list of things to do. There is ultimately no point to it. I have just sat shomer for 2 hrs & I'm tired. Go argue w/ someone who cares. Pete wants a true Jewish answer, I assume, as opposed to your atheist crap, @ least I hope he does.

It is how I read the Tanach. You are on a discussion forum.

Elohim is a plural word. You made up the term 'Royal plural'. It does not exist in the hebrew Language.

El = God and Elohim = Gods.

All I am saying is that the 'Gods' might be intelligent creatures who created the flat earth to exploit other life forms. like human beings build farms to exploit animals.
All Life Forms are made of the same Life Energy. Hierarchy is a lie.

That's the real Jewish/Hebrew interpretation of the Tanach.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on July 06, 2015, 02:10:55 PM
That's not what the commentaries I've read state. How an atheist reads the Scripture? & that is relevant how? According to Torah, your kind would have been disposed of, by stoning, if memory serves. That is appropriate, of course. I would personally be more lenient, & simply exile you.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on July 06, 2015, 02:14:05 PM
I have also read commentaries that say that "Elohim" is an intensifier as well.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tom on July 06, 2015, 05:43:59 PM
That's not what the commentaries I've read state. How an atheist reads the Scripture? & that is relevant how? According to Torah, your kind would have been disposed of, by stoning, if memory serves. That is appropriate, of course. I would personally be more lenient, & simply exile you.

What is the definition of an atheist? I don't think I am one. Besides, I don't hate myself, but you hate me apparently.
I don't like your threats!

Back to the topic.

Do you only parrot the commentaries or can you think for yourself as well.
If you read the Tanach with the eye of a Kabbalist, you will also see different things.

In the beginning Elohim = Gods (plural) is used. Afterwards El = God (singular) is used in the different texts. Avraham (a group of people in that area) chose one of the many 'Gods' that were around, the one he liked most (the jealous/violent one).
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on July 06, 2015, 06:25:27 PM
That's not what the commentaries I've read state. How an atheist reads the Scripture? & that is relevant how? According to Torah, your kind would have been disposed of, by stoning, if memory serves. That is appropriate, of course. I would personally be more lenient, & simply exile you.

What is the definition of an atheist? I don't think I am one. Besides, I don't hate myself, but you hate me apparently.
I don't like your threats!

I am not threatening you at all. I am just saying what you deserve to have done to you.

Quote
Back to the topic.

Do you only parrot the commentaries or can you think for yourself as well.
If you read the Tanach with the eye of a Kabbalist, you will also see different things.

This coming from someone who says that Judaism is untrue. You cannot be a student of Kabbalah and not be a Faithful and Devout Jew. It is impossible to do. Anyone who thinks it can be done is fooling themselves.

Quote
In the beginning Elohim = Gods (plural) is used. Later El = God is used in different texts. Avraham (a group of people in that area) chose one of the many 'Gods' that were around, the one he liked most (the jealous/violent one).

That, without a doubt, takes the California Taco for the stupidest remark I have ever heard a person say. It is clear to me that you are lacking in basic intelligence. Avraham did not choose anything. He was chosen by the Only True G-d. It is certainly true that there were other gods, but, as the commentaries say, they were but idols, with mouths that do not speak, ears that do not hear, eyes that do not see, and so-forth. Have you not read the commentary that discusses how Avram destroyed Terah's idols in his shop, and then blamed one of the idols? And when Terah did not accept this, Avram made clear to Terah how illogical the making of idols was? At least I think the idol-maker was Terah, its been awhile since I have read the tale myself. But whoever it was, you get my point.

Your lack of Faith in Judaism has made you spiritually empty. No Jew can ever fill his soul with anything spiritual except with Judaism. Anything else is but a pale imitation of the Divinely Revealed Faith that is ours by inheritance. What we get by birth, by election and grace, is something that others could only wish for, beg for. And you have thrown it away like a fool. May G-d have mercy on your poor, sorry, empty, savage soul.

I am not threatening you when I say that Torah should be applied to you. Naturally, I am not the one who would do it. I don't believe in vigilantism. But I do believe that in an ideal world, you would be killed, or at the least exiled, for your offence against the Divine Majesty. Any Jew who has rejected Judaism has forfeited his right to live, according to Torah. And I hope and pray that in my lifetime those laws will apply to you and your ilk. I shan't enforce them, as it isn't my business to do so. But I hope that they will be.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on July 06, 2015, 06:30:50 PM
And wow. I just noticed what you said. Calling Avraham a group of people. That is just, wow. Well, Stupid is as Stupid does, which is not to say that you are stupid, but the comment certainly was.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tom on July 06, 2015, 06:37:20 PM
That's not what the commentaries I've read state. How an atheist reads the Scripture? & that is relevant how? According to Torah, your kind would have been disposed of, by stoning, if memory serves. That is appropriate, of course. I would personally be more lenient, & simply exile you.

What is the definition of an atheist? I don't think I am one. Besides, I don't hate myself, but you hate me apparently.
I don't like your threats!

I am not threatening you at all. I am just saying what you deserve to have done to you.

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Back to the topic.

Do you only parrot the commentaries or can you think for yourself as well.
If you read the Tanach with the eye of a Kabbalist, you will also see different things.

This coming from someone who says that Judaism is untrue. You cannot be a student of Kabbalah and not be a Faithful and Devout Jew. It is impossible to do. Anyone who thinks it can be done is fooling themselves.

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In the beginning Elohim = Gods (plural) is used. Later El = God is used in different texts. Avraham (a group of people in that area) chose one of the many 'Gods' that were around, the one he liked most (the jealous/violent one).

That, without a doubt, takes the California Taco for the stupidest remark I have ever heard a person say. It is clear to me that you are an idiot. Avraham did not choose anything. He was chosen by the Only True G-d. It is certainly true that there were other gods, but, as the commentaries say, they were but idols, with mouths that do not speak, ears that do not hear, eyes that do not see, and so-forth. Have you not read the commentary that discusses how Avram destroyed Terah's idols in his shop, and then blamed one of the idols? And when Terah did not accept this, Avram made clear to Terah how illogical the making of idols was? At least I think the idol-maker was Terah, its been awhile since I have read the tale myself. But whoever it was, you get my point.

Your lack of Faith in Judaism has made you spiritually empty. No Jew can ever fill his soul with anything spiritual except with Judaism. Anything else is but a pale imitation of the Divinely Revealed Faith that is ours by inheritance. What we get by birth, by election and grace, is something that others could only wish for, beg for. And you have thrown it away like a fool. May G-d have mercy on your poor, sorry, empty, savage soul.

I am not threatening you when I say that Torah should be applied to you. Naturally, I am not the one who would do it. I don't believe in vigilantism. But I do believe that in an ideal world, you would be killed, or at the least exiled, for your offence against the Divine Majesty. Any Jew who has rejected Judaism has forfeited his right to live, according to Torah. And I hope and pray that in my lifetimes those laws will apply to you and your ilk. I shan't enforce them, as it isn't my business to do so. But I hope that they will be.

You acknowledge with your words that the God you worship is a 'God' full of hate and violence. Well, the Tanach is full of it.
And you are one of his most fanatical followers, it seems.

So, back to the topic.

Avraham (a group of people, as there is no proof that a person called Avraham ever existed) decided to worship this violent God (El, El Shaddai, Adonai, Hashem, etc).
Maybe he was invited to do so, but he believed this 'God' will help him.

Other people who are worshipping other 'Gods' are driven away or killed.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on July 06, 2015, 06:58:33 PM
You acknowledge with your words that the God you worship is a 'God' full of hate and violence. Well, the Tanach is full of it.

It was a violent time. After all, it was the Bronze Age. What do you expect, that they were all going to gather round and sing about the age of Aquarius with the Canaanites? You really make some illogical remarks, indicative of a severe lack of knowledge of history. It was hardly convenient for Joshua to invite the citizens of Jericho to sit round the campfire, roast s'mores (even if you could have found kosher marshmallows), and sing kum-bay-ya.

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And you are one of his most fanatical followers, it seems.

A juvenile response from a petty little man that can't keep up in an argument.

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So, back to the topic.

Avraham (a group of people, as there is no proof that a person called Avraham ever existed) decided to worship this violent God (El, El Shaddai, Adonai, Hashem, etc).
Maybe he was invited to do so, but he believes this 'God' will help him.

There is no proof that a people named "Avraham" ever existed. It is true that they have not found Avraham's bones, but after all, it was a LONG time ago. How illogical to take the name of a person and convert it, with no evidence to do so, into the name of a people group. That make no sense at all.

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Other people who are worshipping other 'Gods' are driven away or killed.

Naturally. Granted, at this point, the Hebrews were basically just an extended family group. But eventually, with the fullness of the time, after Torah was delivered to Moses, the Law applied to all. If one rejected it, you were driven outside the Camp of Israel or killed, as one should have been.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tom on July 06, 2015, 07:29:51 PM
You acknowledge with your words that the God you worship is a 'God' full of hate and violence. Well, the Tanach is full of it.

It was a violent time. After all, it was the Bronze Age. What do you expect, that they were all going to gather round and sing about the age of Aquarius with the Canaanites? You really make some illogical remarks, indicative of a severe lack of knowledge of history. It was hardly convenient for Joshua to invite the citizens of Jericho to sit round the campfire, roast s'mores (even if you could have found kosher marshmallows), and sing kum-bay-ya.

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And you are one of his most fanatical followers, it seems.

A juvenile response from a petty little man that can't keep up in an argument.

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So, back to the topic.

Avraham (a group of people, as there is no proof that a person called Avraham ever existed) decided to worship this violent God (El, El Shaddai, Adonai, Hashem, etc).
Maybe he was invited to do so, but he believes this 'God' will help him.

There is no proof that a people named "Avraham" ever existed. It is true that they have not found Avraham's bones, but after all, it was a LONG time ago. How illogical to take the name of a person and convert it, with no evidence to do so, into the name of a people group. That make no sense at all.

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Other people who are worshipping other 'Gods' are driven away or killed.

Naturally. Granted, at this point, the Hebrews were basically just an extended family group. But eventually, with the fullness of the time, after Torah was delivered to Moses, the Law applied to all. If one rejected it, you were driven outside the Camp of Israel or killed, as one should have been.



So, the story started with 'In the beginning created Elohim (Gods) .......' and it ends with El (Elah), the God a group of people (family) decided to worship as he promised them a good life (at the expense of many other people). The family used a lot of violence.

It is a collective system with a fence around it. A black box (cube) with a strict law in it (Tefillin).
Even the children of the children of the children .... of this group have to obey this strange 'God'. Nobody knows if he really exists or if he is one of the 'Gods' who exploit the human race.

It would be interesting to find this out.




Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on July 07, 2015, 12:03:23 AM
So, the story started with 'In the beginning created Elohim (Gods) .......' and it ends with El (Elah), the God a group of people (family) decided to worship as he promised them a good life (at the expense of many other people). The family used a lot of violence.

It is a collective system with a fence around it. A black box (cube) with a strict law in it (Tefillin).
Even the children of the children of the children .... of this group have to obey this strange 'God'. Nobody knows if he really exists or if he is one of the 'Gods' who exploit the human race.

It would be interesting to find this out.

Composing a logical answer to such a stupid response is going to be difficult at best. Of course the Hebrews used violence. IT WAS THE BRONZE AGE, FOR FUCK'S SAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you propose one more time for them to sing kum-bay-ya with the natives, I am going to suggest you be arrested just for committing the crime of felony stupid.

Since the laws regarding Tefillin were not ordered until well after Avraham, you are making a bit of ass of yourself. And by then, the Tribes were a nation, rather than a family. And how strict is it, really, to remind you what your G-d is, and to tell you to teach your children about your G-d? Seems pretty reasonable to me.

And this crap about "gods exploiting the human race". You sound like Erich von Daniken. Not exactly a man I would be trying to emulate. I've read enough of his books to know that he is a quack, preying on the simple-minded (which I agree would include you, or so it would appear at present. You might of course change my mind by demonstrating logical arguing skills).
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tom on July 07, 2015, 10:36:48 AM
So, the story started with 'In the beginning created Elohim (Gods) .......' and it ends with El (Elah), the God a group of people (family) decided to worship as he promised them a good life (at the expense of many other people). The family used a lot of violence.

It is a collective system with a fence around it. A black box (cube) with a strict law in it (Tefillin).
Even the children of the children of the children .... of this group have to obey this strange 'God'. Nobody knows if he really exists or if he is one of the 'Gods' who exploit the human race.

It would be interesting to find this out.

Composing a logical answer to such a stupid response is going to be difficult at best. Of course the Hebrews used violence. IT WAS THE BRONZE AGE, FOR FUCK'S SAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you propose one more time for them to sing kum-bay-ya with the natives, I am going to suggest you be arrested just for committing the crime of felony stupid.

Since the laws regarding Tefillin were not ordered until well after Avraham, you are making a bit of ass of yourself. And by then, the Tribes were a nation, rather than a family. And how strict is it, really, to remind you what your G-d is, and to tell you to teach your children about your G-d? Seems pretty reasonable to me.

And this crap about "gods exploiting the human race". You sound like Erich von Daniken. Not exactly a man I would be trying to emulate. I've read enough of his books to know that he is a quack, preying on the simple-minded (which I agree would include you, or so it would appear at present. You might of course change my mind by demonstrating logical arguing skills).

To incite a group of people to use such a violence, killing men, women and children is absurd. We are talking about a War God.

I am talking about the collective system in general, the Hebrew system is. I use the black cube (Tefillin) as a metaphore to illustrate that it is a divisive, oppressive and enclosed system.

A sane person would reject such an absurd system for living beings with the Life Force in it.
So, I am trying to figure out if there really are 'Gods' who are oppressing and exploiting living expressions of Life.

On the other hand, it is not relevant, as all Life Forms have the Life Force 'in' them, so nobody has to obey an outside power/force.


Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on July 07, 2015, 10:47:26 AM
To incite a group of people to use such a violence, killing men, women and children is absurd. We are talking about a War God.

So you are guilty of the crime of felonious stupidity by asking Bronze Age people to respond to the standard violence of their time with chants of "kum-bay-ya". Ok. Now that we have established your inability to say anything intelligent on the topic...

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I am talking about the collective system in general, the Hebrew system is. I use the black cube (Telfeillin) as a metaphore to illustrate that it is a divisive, oppressive and enclosed system.

Explain, without committing the offense of felonious stupidity, how it is oppressive and enclosed.

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A sane person would reject such an absurd system for living beings with the Life Force in it.
So, I am trying to figure out if there really are 'Gods' who are oppressing and exploiting living expressions of Life.

Greetings, Erich. What is your latest absurd claim, I wonder?

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On the other hand, it is not relevant, as all Life Forms have the Life Force 'in' them, so nobody has to obey an outside power/force.

This makes no sense. Of course all living things are alive. That is what makes them "living things". See how that works? If they were not alive, ie, did not have life force, they would be dead. See how that works? That doesn't eliminate the need to obey the Creator of the Universe and all that therein lies.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tom on July 07, 2015, 10:59:41 AM
To incite a group of people to use such a violence, killing men, women and children is absurd. We are talking about a War God.

So you are guilty of the crime of felonious stupidity by asking Bronze Age people to respond to the standard violence of their time with chants of "kum-bay-ya". Ok. Now that we have established your inability to say anything intelligent on the topic...

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I am talking about the collective system in general, the Hebrew system is. I use the black cube (Telfeillin) as a metaphore to illustrate that it is a divisive, oppressive and enclosed system.

Explain, without committing the offense of felonious stupidity, how it is oppressive and enclosed.

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A sane person would reject such an absurd system for living beings with the Life Force in it.
So, I am trying to figure out if there really are 'Gods' who are oppressing and exploiting living expressions of Life.

Greetings, Erich. What is your latest absurd claim, I wonder?

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On the other hand, it is not relevant, as all Life Forms have the Life Force 'in' them, so nobody has to obey an outside power/force.

This makes no sense. Of course all living things are alive. That is what makes them "living things". See how that works? If they were not alive, ie, did not have life force, they would be dead. See how that works? That doesn't eliminate the need to obey the Creator of the Universe and all that therein lies.

Violence in the past, violence is used now and will be used in the future. Nothing changed!

The Laws keep Living Life Forms in a Frame. A time frame, a superiority frame, an apartheid frame, an authority frame, a good-bad frame, a false hope-frame, a fear frame, etc, etc.

It is about mind and behaviour control through illusions.

I am asking questions. You believe in a War God, but you can't even prove that he exists.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on July 07, 2015, 11:20:07 AM
Violence in the past, violence is used now and will be used in the future. Nothing changed!

Anyone who has studied history (I have an MA in the subject) knows that violence is in the nature of the human race. Until the Messiah comes, we will commit violence. That is just the way we are. The only hope that it will stop is the Messianic hope.

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The Laws keep Living Life Forms in a Frame. A time frame, a superiority frame, an apartheid frame, an authority frame, a good-bad frame, a false hope-frame, a fear frame, etc, etc.

This is simply pure, unadulterated foolishness. No one would say something like this that understood Judaism. Clearly you do not, and never did. We separate ourselves spiritually for the well-being of both Jew and Gentile. We know what G-d has commanded for us. We do not pretend to know what he has commanded for the Gentile. I am commanded to follow the G-d of Israel as he has revealed himself to the Prophets, as they have been understood by the Sages and Rabbis of Blessed Memory. I do not presume to dictate to the Gentile what he is supposed to do. That is beyond my paygrade. Nor does one have to be a Jew to  be "saved", or any silliness like that. A Righteous Gentile has a place in Olam Ha Ba.

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It is about mind and behaviour control through illusions.

Only a fool says things that are not true, when he knows they are not. Rejection of G-d carries with it Divine punishment. The choice is yours.

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I am asking questions. You believe in a War God, but you can't even prove that he exists.

Your questions are illogical, as are you. G-d is a G-d of all things, war among them. The fact that the Universe exists is proof that G-d exists. There are many arguments for the existence of the Deity. I shall not rehearse them with you, as it will serve no purpose. Your mind is closed to all but your petty rejections. You are as the child, who rebels because it didn't get the piece of candy that it wanted. You resist G-d, because you want to be king of your own castle. Well, you are. The fact that you have thrown out your Creator is your business, and your problem.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tom on July 07, 2015, 11:34:56 AM
Violence in the past, violence is used now and will be used in the future. Nothing changed!

Anyone who has studied history (I have an MA in the subject) knows that violence is in the nature of the human race. Until the Messiah comes, we will commit violence. That is just the way we are. The only hope that it will stop is the Messianic hope.

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The Laws keep Living Life Forms in a Frame. A time frame, a superiority frame, an apartheid frame, an authority frame, a good-bad frame, a false hope-frame, a fear frame, etc, etc.

This is simply pure, unadulterated foolishness. No one would say something like this that understood Judaism. Clearly you do not, and never did. We separate ourselves spiritually for the well-being of both Jew and Gentile. We know what G-d has commanded for us. We do not pretend to know what he has commanded for the Gentile. I am commanded to follow the G-d of Israel as he has revealed himself to the Prophets, as they have been understood by the Sages and Rabbis of Blessed Memory. I do not presume to dictate to the Gentile what he is supposed to do. That is beyond my paygrade. Nor does one have to be a Jew to  be "saved", or any silliness like that. A Righteous Gentile has a place in Olam Ha Ba.

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It is about mind and behaviour control through illusions.

Only a fool says things that are not true, when he knows they are not. Rejection of G-d carries with it Divine punishment. The choice is yours.

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I am asking questions. You believe in a War God, but you can't even prove that he exists.

Your questions are illogical, as are you. G-d is a G-d of all things, war among them. The fact that the Universe exists is proof that G-d exists. There are many arguments for the existence of the Deity. I shall not rehearse them with you, as it will serve no purpose. Your mind is closed to all but your petty rejections. You are as the child, who rebels because it didn't get the piece of candy that it wanted. You resist G-d, because you want to be king of your own castle. Well, you are. The fact that you have thrown out your Creator is your business, and your problem.


You are talking about an universe and don't even know that the earth is flat.

You can fool yourself and love your War God.

Good luck with your illusions!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on July 07, 2015, 11:44:10 AM
You are talking about an universe and don't even know that the earth is flat.

Wow. Just, WOW. You went there. You actually fucking went there. He said it. The Earth is flat. Now I have heard as much felony stupid as I can ever hope for. You shouldn't just be arrested, you should be shot.

Of course, its beside the point. Even if I believed something so patently absurd, it would not change anything I have said. The ancient Hebrews believed the Earth was flat. So, your point is?

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You can fool yourself and love your War God.

A gratuitous, borderline ad hom from a petty man who can't hold his own in an argument.

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Good luck with your illusions!

No, anyone who thinks the world is flat after the life of Aristotle is the one who is messed up with illusions. You need to be committed. They have hospitals and medications for this kind of thing, Man.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Blanko on July 07, 2015, 11:50:12 AM
You're getting real close to crossing into ban territory again, Yaakov. Try to keep calm, okay?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tom on July 07, 2015, 11:50:31 AM
You are talking about an universe and don't even know that the earth is flat.

Wow. Just, WOW. You went there. You actually fucking went there. He said it. The Earth is flat. Now I have heard as much felony stupid as I can ever hope for. You shouldn't just be arrested, you should be shot.

Of course, its beside the point. Even if I believed something so patently absurd, it would not change anything I have said. The ancient Hebrews believed the Earth was flat. So, your point is?

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You can fool yourself and love your War God.

A gratuitous, borderline ad hom from a petty man who can't hold his own in an argument.

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Good luck with your illusions!

No, anyone who thinks the world is flat after the life of Aristotle is the one who is messed up with illusions. You need to be committed. They have hospitals and medications for this kind of thing, Man.

What are you doing on this flat earth forum, if you still believe in a sphere in the middle of nowhere?

You are full of accusations and threats. You are not a fun guy to talk to.

Live in your own fantasy reality. Good luck!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on July 07, 2015, 11:58:46 AM
You're getting real close to crossing into ban territory again, Yaakov. Try to keep calm, okay?

Fair enough. Thanks for the friendly warning.

What are you doing on this flat earth forum, if you still believe in a sphere in the middle of nowhere?

You are full of accusations and threats. You are not a fun guy to talk to.

Live in your own fantasy reality. Good luck!

Even if I did believe in a Flat Earth, so did the Ancient Israelites. That mistaken belief didn't invalidate their religion. I don't threaten at all. A threat involves me suggesting that I would do harm to you. I have not suggested that at all. I have suggested that in a Halachic State, harm would be done to you by that State, yes. But I am not the State.

Face it, Tom. You can't hold your own in a real argument. Apparently, you never mastered the art of pilpul. I'll admit, this has gone outside the realm of pilpul into rudeness, but you started that with your outright crass disrespect of Judaism. Don't ask for respect when you refuse to give it.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on July 07, 2015, 12:03:00 PM
For the sake of the Censors, allow me to define "pilpul". It is a Yiddish word, and it translates roughly into English as the art of debate and argumentation between two or more persons for the purpose of studying out an issue. Said activity is generally done in a friendly atmosphere, without the intention of being uncharitable. Often, it is a full-throated debate that can appear, to non-Jews, as if the participants were very irritated with one another, when in fact, they are quite friendly.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tom on July 07, 2015, 12:11:06 PM
You're getting real close to crossing into ban territory again, Yaakov. Try to keep calm, okay?

Fair enough. Thanks for the friendly warning.

What are you doing on this flat earth forum, if you still believe in a sphere in the middle of nowhere?

You are full of accusations and threats. You are not a fun guy to talk to.

Live in your own fantasy reality. Good luck!

Even if I did believe in a Flat Earth, so did the Ancient Israelites. That mistaken belief didn't invalidate their religion. I don't threaten at all. A threat involves me suggesting that I would do harm to you. I have not suggested that at all. I have suggested that in a Halachic State, harm would be done to you by that State, yes. But I am not the State.

Face it, Tom. You can't hold your own in a real argument. Apparently, you never mastered the art of pilpul. I'll admit, this has gone outside the realm of pilpul into rudeness, but you started that with you outright crass disrespect of Judaism. Don't ask for respect when you refuse to give it.

You said among other things, I quote "You shouldn't just be arrested, you should be shot." That is a threat, mister!
Not nice!

All your accusations that I am stupid and that I don't know anything about history and Judaism are really very weak arguments. Give me some solid proof that your War God exists! Give me some solid proof that all the famous War Lords in the Tanach like Avraham, Jaakov, his 12 sons, David, Solomon, etc. existed.

I am still interested in the story. What really happened and what really is going on.
You cannot provide any interesting thoughts. No point to talk with fundamentalists about these things.

Anyone else?

Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on July 07, 2015, 12:30:10 PM
You said among other things, I quote "You shouldn't just be arrested, you should be shot." That is a threat, mister!
Not nice!

Suggesting what I think your punishment should be is one thing. I am not saying that I should be the one to carry it out. Ergo, not a threat.

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All your accusations that I am stupid and that I don't know anything about history and Judaism are really very weak arguments. Give me some solid proof that your War God exists! Give me some solid proof that all the famous War Lords in the Tanach like Avraham, Jaakov, his 12 sons, David, Solomon, etc. existed.

Well, given that they have found stones in Israel with David's name on them, that should be your first clue to his existence. They also, in a recent find, believe that they have found his palace in Jerusalem. Obviously, if David existed, it is likely his son did. I agree that they have no proof of Abraham or Jacob or the Twelve Sons thereof, but the fact that there were Twelve Tribes is a pretty good indicator that there were Twelve founders of those Tribes. Remember, it was a LONG time ago. That proof is going to be awhile in coming. Remember where they are digging for things.

As a perfect example, they recently found a Jeep from the 1973 War in the Sinai Peninsula. This Israeli Jeep was buried 50 feet deep in sand. Notice the figure. 50 feet deep. And that is just in the last 40 years. Can you imagine what sand has moved around in the last 3,800 years? Finding ANYTHING in that part of the world is going to be a pain in the butt at least.

I would encourage you to start using your head, instead your emotions. You have developed such a hatred for Judaism that all you can think with is your hatred. I don't know why you feel the way you do, but something has caused you to despise your upbringing. You have betrayed your G-d and your People. As far as I am concerned, you deserve the punishments that a Halachic State would provide for such. Note that I do NOT say that I would enforce such punishments. I merely say that I believe you deserve to be punished accordingly. Again, not a threat. Merely an opinion.

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I am still interested in the story. What really happened and what really is going on.
You cannot provide any interesting thoughts. No point to talk with fundamentalists about these things.
Anyone else?

There really is no such thing as a Jewish fundamentalist. I mean, yes, the Torah actually occurred, of course. Well, at least after Chapter 11 of Genesis. I am not so sure about the first 11 chapters, because they are all quasi-mythological, but that is another issue altogether.

But the Torah, and the rest of the Jewish Bible has to be read as a multi-layered text. Please note I don't use the term TaNaKh. The term is correct, of course. I avoid it, however, because most Gentiles have no clue what the heck it means. It is easier for their understanding to use terms such as "Jewish Bible", or "Hebrew Bible", or, much as I hate it, the oft-used term, "Old Testament", which I usually will place in quotes to indicate the incorrectness of the term.

So, back to the topic. The Jewish Bible is a multi-layered text. It has to be read literally of course. But there are also metaphorical, poetic, literary, mystical, and many other ways in which it can and often should be read in addition to the literal. The fact that it can and should be read this way is the reason for the existence of Talmud and Kabbalah.  But the only way to understand either of these is through the prism of a faithfully lived Jewish life. Trying to break from Judaism, and its disciplines, and yet understand either of these, particularly Kabbalah, is just straight impossible, and doomed to failure.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tom on July 07, 2015, 01:26:48 PM
You said among other things, I quote "You shouldn't just be arrested, you should be shot." That is a threat, mister!
Not nice!

Suggesting what I think your punishment should be is one thing. I am not saying that I should be the one to carry it out. Ergo, not a threat.

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All your accusations that I am stupid and that I don't know anything about history and Judaism are really very weak arguments. Give me some solid proof that your War God exists! Give me some solid proof that all the famous War Lords in the Tanach like Avraham, Jaakov, his 12 sons, David, Solomon, etc. existed.

Well, given that they have found stones in Israel with David's name on them, that should be your first clue to his existence. They also, in a recent find, believe that they have found his palace in Jerusalem. Obviously, if David existed, it is likely his son did. I agree that they have no proof of Abraham or Jacob or the Twelve Sons thereof, but the fact that there were Twelve Tribes is a pretty good indicator that there were Twelve founders of those Tribes. Remember, it was a LONG time ago. That proof is going to be awhile in coming. Remember where they are digging for things.

As a perfect example, they recently found a Jeep from the 1973 War in the Sinai Peninsula. This Israeli Jeep was buried 50 feet deep in sand. Notice the figure. 50 feet deep. And that is just in the last 40 years. Can you imagine what sand has moved around in the last 3,800 years? Finding ANYTHING in that part of the world is going to be a pain in the butt at least.

I would encourage you to start using your head, instead your emotions. You have developed such a hatred for Judaism that all you can think with is your hatred. I don't know why you feel the way you do, but something has caused you to despise your upbringing. You have betrayed your G-d and your People. As far as I am concerned, you deserve the punishments that a Halachic State would provide for such. Note that I do NOT say that I would enforce such punishments. I merely say that I believe you deserve to be punished accordingly. Again, not a threat. Merely an opinion.

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I am still interested in the story. What really happened and what really is going on.
You cannot provide any interesting thoughts. No point to talk with fundamentalists about these things.
Anyone else?

There really is no such thing as a Jewish fundamentalist. I mean, yes, the Torah actually occurred, of course. Well, at least after Chapter 11 of Genesis. I am not so sure about the first 11 chapters, because they are all quasi-mythological, but that is another issue altogether.

But the Torah, and the rest of the Jewish Bible has to be read as a multi-layered text. Please note I don't use the term TaNaKh. The term is correct, of course. I avoid it, however, because most Gentiles have no clue what the heck it means. It is easier for their understanding to use terms such as "Jewish Bible", or "Hebrew Bible", or, much as I hate it, the oft-used term, "Old Testament", which I usually will place in quotes to indicate the incorrectness of the term.

So, back to the topic. The Jewish Bible is a multi-layered text. It has to be read literally of course. But there are also metaphorical, poetic, literary, mystical, and many other ways in which it can and often should be read in addition to the literal. The fact that it can and should be read this way is the reason for the existence of Talmud and Kabbalah.  But the only way to understand either of these is through the prism of a faithfully lived Jewish life. Trying to break from Judaism, and its disciplines, and yet understand either of these, particularly Kabbalah, is just straight impossible, and doomed to failure.

No proof for the existence of your War God and his soldiers.

There is a story about the Hyksos that tried to conquer Egypt and were kicked out. That's a clue that there was something going on in that area.

Btw, Einstein was a kabbalist. We all know how he got his theories. Unfortunately they are wrong.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on July 07, 2015, 01:37:43 PM
No proof for the existence of your War God and his soldiers.

Your point being?

Quote
There is a story about the Hyksos that tried to conquer Egypt and were kicked out. That's a clue that there was something going on in that area.

Actually, they DID conquer Egypt for a time, and ruled it, until they were conquered themselves, and thrown out of the country. It is believed that it was about this time that the Hebrews were made slaves, because it was feared that they would ally with the Hyksos. At least, so some scholars say.

Quote
Btw, Einstein was a kabbalist. We all know how he got his theories. Unfortunately they are wrong.

Einstein was not a practitioner of the Jewish Faith. He was an ethnic Jew only. And he only vaguely believed in G-d at all, as some vague force that created the universe. He certainly did not believe in Judaism. And every single reputable scientist and scholar in the world accepts Einstein's work as revolutionary in understanding our universe. I hardly think that anyone on this website is going to convince 99.99999999% of the educated world that the Earth is flat and Einstein was an idiot.

I highly doubt that Einstein was a kabbalist, given his very vague notions of deity and religious concepts. That sounds like a load of bilge.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tom on July 07, 2015, 01:49:18 PM
No proof for the existence of your War God and his soldiers.

Your point being?

Quote
There is a story about the Hyksos that tried to conquer Egypt and were kicked out. That's a clue that there was something going on in that area.

Actually, they DID conquer Egypt for a time, and ruled it, until they were conquered themselves, and thrown out of the country. It is believed that it was about this time that the Hebrews were made slaves, because it was feared that they would ally with the Hyksos. At least, so some scholars say.

Quote
Btw, Einstein was a kabbalist. We all know how he got his theories. Unfortunately they are wrong.

Einstein was not a practitioner of the Jewish Faith. He was an ethnic Jew only. And he only vaguely believed in G-d at all, as some vague force that created the universe. He certainly did not believe in Judaism. And every single reputable scientist and scholar in the world accepts Einstein's work as revolutionary in understanding our universe. I hardly think that anyone on this website is going to convince 99.99999999% of the educated world that the Earth is flat and Einstein was an idiot.

I highly doubt that Einstein was a kabbalist, given his very vague notions of deity and religious concepts. That sounds like a load of bilge.

No proof your War God exists. You might warship a phantom.

The Tanach does not mention the Hyksos and the other story does not mention the Hebrew people.

Maybe the Hyksos and the Hebrews are the same people. Just a thought.

Einsteins theory has similarities with the Kabbalah theory. Very probably Einstein knew about it and was 'inspired'.

The earth is flat, which brings me back to the question. What are you doing here? You will have more fun on a Chabad forum.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on July 07, 2015, 05:27:16 PM
If you had ever studied philosophy, you would have known the arguments for the existence of G-d. Telling me that Einstein's theories are similar to Kabbala simply means one thing. Citation needed. And even if they were, sine he was not devoutly Jewish, he could not have understood Kabbala.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tom on July 07, 2015, 05:37:34 PM
If you had ever studied philosophy, you would have known the arguments for the existence of G-d. Telling me that Einstein's theories are similar to Kabbala simply means one thing. Citation needed. And even if they were, sine he was not devoutly Jewish, he could not have understood Kabbala.

There are no valid arguments for the existence of God, especially not your War God.

People who say that other people cannot understand something, are so unbelievable supercilious.

What are you doing here, if you don't acknowledge that the earth is flat?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on July 07, 2015, 05:53:42 PM
If you had ever studied philosophy, you would have known the arguments for the existence of G-d. Telling me that Einstein's theories are similar to Kabbala simply means one thing. Citation needed. And even if they were, sine he was not devoutly Jewish, he could not have understood Kabbala.

There are no valid arguments for the existence of God, especially not your War God.

People who say that other people cannot understand something, are so unbelievable supercilious.

What are you doing here, if you don't acknowledge that the earth is flat?

The only reason you claim there are no arguments for G-d's existence is because you refuse to obey the Creator. You are in open rebellion. You have stupidly closed your mind.

I claim you don't understand because it is obvious that you do not. If that makes me supercilious, tough. Get over it.

You will find the majority of people here don't believe the earth is flat.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tom on July 07, 2015, 06:02:46 PM
If you had ever studied philosophy, you would have known the arguments for the existence of G-d. Telling me that Einstein's theories are similar to Kabbala simply means one thing. Citation needed. And even if they were, sine he was not devoutly Jewish, he could not have understood Kabbala.

There are no valid arguments for the existence of God, especially not your War God.

People who say that other people cannot understand something, are so unbelievable supercilious.

What are you doing here, if you don't acknowledge that the earth is flat?

The only reason you claim there are no arguments for G-d's existence is because you refuse to obey the Creator. You are in open rebellion. You have stupidly closed your mind.

I claim you don't understand because it is obvious that you do not. If that makes me supercilious, tough. Get over it.

You will find the majority of people here don't believe the earth is flat.

Come on, where are your arguments/proof that God, especially your War God, exists?

You don't know what I know. You have only empty words to say.

Why are YOU here?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on July 07, 2015, 06:08:43 PM
My first argument would be the Ontological Argument.

A. I can conceive of a Being a Greater than which cannot possibly be Conceived which exists.
B. Existence is greater than non-existence.
C. Ergo, G-d exists.

Of course, there are a shit-ton of others. I am not going to rehearse them all. An atheist is as the child, screaming in rebellion because it didn't get the candy that it wanted. Grow up, act like an adult, and maybe it will be worth my time debating with you.

Why does it matter why I am here?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Particle Person on July 07, 2015, 06:18:44 PM
B. Existence is greater than non-existence.

citation needed
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tom on July 07, 2015, 06:23:33 PM
My first argument would be the Ontological Argument.

A. I can conceive of a Being a Greater than which cannot possibly be Conceived which exists.
B. Existence is greater than non-existence.
C. Ergo, G-d exists.

Of course, there are a shit-ton of others. I am not going to rehearse them all. An atheist is as the child, screaming in rebellion because it didn't get the candy that it wanted. Grow up, act like an adult, and maybe it will be worth my time debating with you.

Why does it matter why I am here?

It's a mind game!

A Great and not great is a duality of the mind; it is fiction, as the reference point does not exist.

B There is no such thing as non-existence!

C This is not valid proof of the existence of a (War) God.

Next argument!

Why are you on a forum for people who want to know more about the flat earth?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on July 07, 2015, 06:27:37 PM
That is just a stupid response. If I tell you there is a boat in the harbour, when in fact there is no boat there, that means that it does not exist. I am not going to get into this. You are an illogical individual, although we knew that already.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Tom on July 07, 2015, 06:32:24 PM
That is just a stupid response. If I tell you there is a boat in the harbour, when in fact there is no boat there, that means that it does not exist. I am not going to get into this. You are an illogical individual, although we knew that already.

You cannot win your stupid mind game!

Good luck with your belief in a Phantom War God!
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on July 07, 2015, 06:33:41 PM
Ah, whatever.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rama Set on July 07, 2015, 06:38:39 PM
That is just a stupid response. If I tell you there is a boat in the harbour, when in fact there is no boat there, that means that it does not exist. I am not going to get into this. You are an illogical individual, although we knew that already.

It's just one of many valid counter arguments such as:

A. This, in fact is not true, since one can engage in an infinite progression of superlatives. An infinity cannot exist in reality therefore your premise is false.

B. In order for this premise to hold it must be true in every possible case. There are cases where non-existence is superior such as ending a life well-lived before succumbing to a painful degenerative disease. This premise fails.

C. The premises do not hold true therefore God does not exist.

Why do you think a syllogism must necessarily be a part of reality?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on July 07, 2015, 06:43:26 PM
That is just a stupid response. If I tell you there is a boat in the harbour, when in fact there is no boat there, that means that it does not exist. I am not going to get into this. You are an illogical individual, although we knew that already.

It's just one of many valid counter arguments such as:

A. This, in fact is not true, since one can engage in an infinite progression of superlatives. An infinity cannot exist in reality therefore your premise is false.

B. In order for this premise to hold it must be true in every possible case. There are cases where non-existence is superior such as ending a life well-lived before succumbing to a painful degenerative disease. This premise fails.

C. The premises do not hold true therefore God does not exist.

Why do you think a syllogism must necessarily be a part of reality?

My wife needs to computer. TTYL.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pongo on July 07, 2015, 08:01:43 PM
In the Heaven thread, someone actually suggested this. If anyone has any questions about Jews & Judaism, I'll try to answer. I'm neither the most brilliant nor the most foolish Jew in the world. I like to think I'm reasonably well informed. If I can't answer your question, I'll tell you that too. So, fire ahead. If nobody does, that won't offend me either. This is just an offer.

Do American Jews mostly vote Republican or Democrat and what are you thoughts on that?
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on July 07, 2015, 08:08:48 PM
American Jews, very sadly, mostly vote Democratic. The reason for this is that traditionally, the Democrats have always had a stronger focus on social justice than the Republicans, and Jews, for obvious reasons, are very concerned with matters of social justice.

This is beginning to change. More Jews are beginning to realise that the Democratic Party is not their friend, as it basically wants to destroy Israel. But I suspect that for at least another 10-15 years, the Jewish vote will probably remain predominantly Democratic, depending on how anti-Israel the party ultimately becomes. If it really gets extreme, those years could decrease, of course.

I myself am a Republican with Falangist tendencies, but that is another matter altogether.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on July 08, 2015, 10:39:40 AM
Quote
Jews, for obvious reasons, are very concerned with matters of social justice.

So long as they're not Arabs, right?...
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Rushy on July 08, 2015, 01:39:08 PM
Quote
Jews, for obvious reasons, are very concerned with matters of social justice.

So long as they're not Arabs, right?...

A lot of SJWs replace "Arabs" with "white people".
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: beardo on July 08, 2015, 03:43:48 PM
But Arabs are not white ???
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vongeo on July 08, 2015, 04:44:15 PM
 Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? Fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer as a Christian is? If you prick jews, do they not bleed? If you tickle jews, do they not laugh? If you poison jews, do they not die? And if you wrong jews, shall they not revenge? If jews are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that. If a Jew wrong a Christian, what is his humility? Revenge. If a Christian wrong a Jew, what should his sufferance be by Christian example? Why, revenge. The villainy you teach me I will execute—and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Pete on July 10, 2015, 11:57:39 AM
Pete wants a true Jewish answer, I assume, as opposed to your atheist crap, @ least I hope he does.

Sure I do. Thanks for the answer. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob should always have the glory  since he is the Father of all who do his will. The other gods are not true Gods since they are only "so-called gods" but not the only true God.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: mister bickles on July 15, 2015, 01:15:15 PM
Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? Fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer as a Christian is? If you prick jews, do they not bleed? If you tickle jews, do they not laugh? If you poison jews, do they not die? And if you wrong jews, shall they not revenge? If jews are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that. If a Jew wrong a Christian, what is his humility? Revenge. If a Christian wrong a Jew, what should his sufferance be by Christian example? Why, revenge. The villainy you teach me I will execute—and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction.

my ducats! my daughters!

the real "god" of the jews is Mammon;
jews are, basically, materialistic atheists;
neither a race nor a religion but a sort of international criminal cabal!
hence: Marxism and robber-baron capitalism...flip-sides of the same coin!

Mammon led them on--
Mammon, the least erected Spirit that fell
From Heaven; for even in Heaven his looks and thoughts
Were always downward bent, admiring more
The riches of heaven's pavement, trodden gold,
Than aught divine or holy else enjoyed
In vision beatific.....
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on July 15, 2015, 01:23:59 PM
You're not very bright, are you, Bickles? You can't be a Marxist and a Capitalist at the same time, see. Those two don't work and play well togther. Not that I would expect you to know this, given your approximate fifth grade iq.
Title: Re: Ask a Jew anything.
Post by: Vongeo on July 22, 2015, 04:51:56 PM
You're not very bright, are you, Bickles? You can't be a Marxist and a Capitalist at the same time, see. Those two don't work and play well togther. Not that I would expect you to know this, given your approximate fifth grade iq.
Well no you can't but from a literary theorist's perspective Marxism is the following of capital to make a story making them two sides of the same coin. Both Concerned with ducats but oopposite views of distribution.