*

Offline rooster

  • *
  • Posts: 3252
    • View Profile
Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #60 on: June 05, 2021, 12:14:00 AM »
A girl is anyone who identifies as a girl.

This is the equivalent of me asking what a circle is and you answer "a circle is a circle". You didn't define what a girl is. What precisely does it mean to "identify as a girl"? Let's say you're reading a great book and it describes a character as a "young girl", what image is brought to your mind?
Honestly, it's difficult for me to picture people without more descriptive characteristics. But, a child with maybe longer hair and maybe wearing a dress. But not all girls have long hair or like dresses and some boys do have long hair and like dresses. I just picture a kid.

People are so varied I don't have a prototype for "man" or "woman" without more prompting. I'd probably just end up picturing a man or woman I know.

*

Offline Rushy

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7306
    • View Profile
Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #61 on: June 05, 2021, 12:59:08 AM »
Honestly, it's difficult for me to picture people without more descriptive characteristics. But, a child with maybe longer hair and maybe wearing a dress. But not all girls have long hair or like dresses and some boys do have long hair and like dresses. I just picture a kid.

People are so varied I don't have a prototype for "man" or "woman" without more prompting. I'd probably just end up picturing a man or woman I know.

You say that a girl isn't necessarily one that wears dresses or has long hair, so we can't go by physical choices, then. So, what does a girl have that a boy does not? If we go back to 'female brain', what does a female brain do that a male brain does not?

*

Offline rooster

  • *
  • Posts: 3252
    • View Profile
Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #62 on: June 05, 2021, 01:06:30 AM »
You say that a girl isn't necessarily one that wears dresses or has long hair, so we can't go by physical choices, then. So, what does a girl have that a boy does not? If we go back to 'female brain', what does a female brain do that a male brain does not?
According to the link I posted it has more to do with structure and volume as opposed to what a female brain "does." You're going to have to ask these medical researchers what the significance of the brain structure is.

You're not going to get anything you want from me with this question. There is no one way to be or do anything. Hell, I break a lot of typical female stereotypes. I know of a couple trans women that are way more feminine than I am. This is pointless.

*

Offline Rushy

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7306
    • View Profile
Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #63 on: June 05, 2021, 01:26:59 AM »
You're not going to get anything you want from me with this question. There is no one way to be or do anything. Hell, I break a lot of typical female stereotypes. I know of a couple trans women that are way more feminine than I am. This is pointless.

Why is being a woman related at all to being 'feminine', though? If a female human wears jeans, gymbros it up, drinks beers, does an infinite load of 'stereotypical man' cultural references, is there an inflection point where that female human *is* a man or is it a woman that chooses that lifestyle? It seems that you've dissolved enough of what the words mean to the point that they have no meaning at all, which is likely why you're having such an incredibly difficult time giving me a concrete definition of the words.

Here, I can define them easily: a man is a male human and a woman is a female human. And of course, there are people who are neither male nor female due to a disorder and those people are neither man nor woman.

Instead of modernizing what we once called 'gender roles', we've instead reinforced them so hardcore that people must literally identify as the opposing sex to perform the role they desire. Is that healthy?
« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 01:31:16 AM by Rushy »

*

Offline rooster

  • *
  • Posts: 3252
    • View Profile
Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #64 on: June 05, 2021, 01:59:27 AM »
You're not going to get anything you want from me with this question. There is no one way to be or do anything. Hell, I break a lot of typical female stereotypes. I know of a couple trans women that are way more feminine than I am. This is pointless.

Why is being a woman related at all to being 'feminine', though? If a female human wears jeans, gymbros it up, drinks beers, does an infinite load of 'stereotypical man' cultural references, is there an inflection point where that female human *is* a man or is it a woman that chooses that lifestyle? It seems that you've dissolved enough of what the words mean to the point that they have no meaning at all, which is likely why you're having such an incredibly difficult time giving me a concrete definition of the words.

Here, I can define them easily: a man is a male human and a woman is a female human. And of course, there are people who are neither male nor female due to a disorder and those people are neither man nor woman.

Instead of modernizing what we once called 'gender roles', we've instead reinforced them so hardcore that people must literally identify as the opposing sex to perform the role they desire. Is that healthy?
That's the opposite of what I was saying. I referred to the stereotypes, which I don't personally follow but I don't feel any less of a woman because of it.

I can't pretend to know what a trans person is thinking, but I can try to imagine what it would be like to feel so out of place with your body that you'd rather transition and put up with all this bullshit just to feel like yourself.

Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #65 on: June 05, 2021, 07:04:01 AM »
I can't pretend to know what a trans person is thinking, but I can try to imagine what it would be like to feel so out of place with your body that you'd rather transition and put up with all this bullshit just to feel like yourself.

I don’t think anyone is denying that this is a real thing or that people who feel that way need help. The question is what the right help to give them is.

As Rushy has pointed out, medical consensus changes over time and this is a relatively new thing - new in the sense of it being a recognised condition.
There are all kinds of conditions where people feel that they aren’t right the way they are. Anorexics believe they are too fat when they are dangerously underweight. The treatment isn’t to help then lose more weight.
People with body dysmorphia believe they have flaws in their appearance which don’t exist. The treatment isn’t plastic surgery. 
It seems that this is the only condition of this nature where the “right” thing to do is now seen to be to pander to the person’s delusion.
It’s emperor’s new gender. He’s saying he’s a woman and instead of people going “hang on, what’s with the Adam’s apple and cock then?” people are just going along with it.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

*

Offline Rushy

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7306
    • View Profile
Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #66 on: June 05, 2021, 01:37:07 PM »
That's the opposite of what I was saying. I referred to the stereotypes, which I don't personally follow but I don't feel any less of a woman because of it.

I can't pretend to know what a trans person is thinking, but I can try to imagine what it would be like to feel so out of place with your body that you'd rather transition and put up with all this bullshit just to feel like yourself.

What does it mean to 'transition'. What key difference is there between, say, a regular man and a man who has 'transitioned' into a woman? What does one have that the other does not?

*

Offline rooster

  • *
  • Posts: 3252
    • View Profile
Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #67 on: June 05, 2021, 04:49:28 PM »
I can't pretend to know what a trans person is thinking, but I can try to imagine what it would be like to feel so out of place with your body that you'd rather transition and put up with all this bullshit just to feel like yourself.

I don’t think anyone is denying that this is a real thing or that people who feel that way need help. The question is what the right help to give them is.

As Rushy has pointed out, medical consensus changes over time and this is a relatively new thing - new in the sense of it being a recognised condition.
There are all kinds of conditions where people feel that they aren’t right the way they are. Anorexics believe they are too fat when they are dangerously underweight. The treatment isn’t to help then lose more weight.
People with body dysmorphia believe they have flaws in their appearance which don’t exist. The treatment isn’t plastic surgery. 
It seems that this is the only condition of this nature where the “right” thing to do is now seen to be to pander to the person’s delusion.
It’s emperor’s new gender. He’s saying he’s a woman and instead of people going “hang on, what’s with the Adam’s apple and cock then?” people are just going along with it.
It's not like no one tried therapy, the same you'd get for anorexia. But the outcomes typically showed that the symptoms didn't diminish or even got worse.

Lots of people get plastic surgery for body dysmorphia and there aren't laws trying to ban it or people saying they've mutilated their bodies.

If an MRI shows that a trans woman has a brain functionally and structurally comparable to other women and different than mens' brains, what would you suggest for the treatment? If that were the case it wouldn't mean they're "deluded" but that there is a real inconsistency with their bodies.

In the meantime, I'll let my friends know they should hate their new lives because some guys on the internet think it's weird and harmful like lobotomies. And that they shouldn't play sports because they might be taller than 5'4.

But I'm tired of talking about hypothetical people in their different treatments and journeys to healthier lives with people who are not doctors. Not all trans people have reassignment surgeries and for some it's a necessity. They shouldn't have to wait for someone to figure out a miracle cure that may never come when there is a fix that could help.

Not all trans athletes show up in sports and dominate the field, studies and reports have shown otherwise. Their advantages are not assured or that extreme to make a big difference.

Quote
In the more than eight years since the California Interscholastic Federation (CIF) began allowing high school athletes to compete as the gender with which they identify — regardless of what they were assigned at birth — there has not been a single case in which a trans female athlete has been dominant enough to stir protest.

*

Offline Pete Svarrior

  • e
  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13208
  • (>^_^)> it's propaganda time (◕‿◕✿)
    • View Profile
    • The Flat Earth Society
Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #68 on: June 05, 2021, 05:30:53 PM »
It seems that this is the only condition of this nature where the “right” thing to do is now seen to be to pander to the person’s delusion.
That would be because, per current medical consensus (which may change, granted, but that doesn't particularly justify gammons sitting there and claiming they know better) it is not a condition of the same nature as your other examples.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!

<Parsifal> I like looking at Chinese Wikipedia with Noto installed
<Parsifal> I don't understand any of it but the symbols look nice

Offline Action80

  • *
  • Posts: 662
    • View Profile
Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #69 on: June 07, 2021, 11:04:26 AM »
Non-elite males will beat ultra-elite females, quite soundly.
Just because you write it, does not make it true.

Like, I'm, pretty sure you can't run 100 meters in 10.49 seconds.  And I'm willing to bet that your local HS team of men can't either.
Yes, high school boys can run faster than 10.49 seconds in the 100 meters.

Yes, high school boys teams can beat elite national women teams.

Just do your own research to understand who is writing the crap here.

Hint, it isn't me.

Offline Action80

  • *
  • Posts: 662
    • View Profile
Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #70 on: June 07, 2021, 11:12:32 AM »
I don't see why kids, who have transitioned during or before puberty and have the estrogen levels of other girls can't compete in sports with other girls.
Well how about we get schools girls running against greyhounds? Or racehorses? Young racehorses of course. I mean, we wouldn't want them to have an age advantage. A genetic advantage such as 4 legs or a Y-chromosome, no problem though.  ::)

And the arguments get sillier and sillier.

"I do not like your argument, therefore I will call it silly." - Rama Set

Offline Action80

  • *
  • Posts: 662
    • View Profile
Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #71 on: June 07, 2021, 11:17:17 AM »
So I’ve just decided that I identify as a woman so can I go into the women’s locker rooms now? What do you mean no? Don’t you oppress me.

It's interesting how skeptics always seem to take it for granted that support for trans rights goes hand in hand with a credulous acceptance of anyone acting in bad faith as long as they say the magic words. I have absolutely no problem with using some common sense when allowing claimed transwomen into women's spaces. Saying "I identify as a woman" doesn't make you trans, and neither does wearing a wig and a dress.

Quote
I’m not convinced that pandering to people’s psychological issues is helping them.

You can call it whatever you want, but the phenomenon is very real. There are millions of people who feel the way they do, and they're not going to just "snap out of it" or go away no matter how certain you are that scientifically they shouldn't exist. We can either treat them with compassion or continue to marginalize and isolate them, and I feel that making appeals to scientific accuracy is a very poor justification for the latter, especially when the burden placed on society and individuals for "pandering" to them is such a trivial one.

It should be utterly illegal to prevent a person going through puberty and mucking about with their development whilst they are children. You do not know your own mind as a child and should not be able to consent. If you can't consent to sex until you are 16/17, why is it you can consent to being castrated and filled with hormones at the age of 10? That's some pretty fucked up liberal logic right there.

This does not happen. If there's one piece of misinformation above all that needs to be corrected, it's this. Children who believe they may be transgender are not given life-altering surgeries or chemical treatments. At most, they receive puberty blockers in their adolescence to delay - not permanently prevent, but delay - the effects of puberty until they're old enough to make a decision about how they want to live their life. It's not always perfect. I feel awful for the woman in the article you linked, but she was seventeen when she began taking male hormones, and twenty when she had her breasts removed. She wasn't a brainwashed child. Wherever there are major medical procedures, there will be people who undergo them and later regret doing so. I don't think that's an effective argument for getting rid of them altogether.

Also, here is a good article that details much of the science behind all this, as well as the rules and procedures for treating trans youth. A lot of this is admittedly specific to America, but I would be astonished if things were especially different in any other Western nation.
Yeah, the typical response from a lib.

"I feel oppressed!" - lib

"Why? What happened?" - Anyone

"Nothing!" I just feel oppressed!" - lib

Offline Action80

  • *
  • Posts: 662
    • View Profile
Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #72 on: June 07, 2021, 11:41:52 AM »
You say that a girl isn't necessarily one that wears dresses or has long hair, so we can't go by physical choices, then. So, what does a girl have that a boy does not? If we go back to 'female brain', what does a female brain do that a male brain does not?
According to the link I posted it has more to do with structure and volume as opposed to what a female brain "does." You're going to have to ask these medical researchers what the significance of the brain structure is.

You're not going to get anything you want from me with this question. There is no one way to be or do anything. Hell, I break a lot of typical female stereotypes. I know of a couple trans women that are way more feminine than I am. This is pointless.
Yeah, it's pointless, because you know damn good and well what a girl is and it just so happens to be you don't have the balls to answer the fucking question.

Which happens to be a good thing, by the way.

*

Offline Toddler Thork

  • *
  • Posts: 4178
  • https://onlyfans.com/thork
    • View Profile
Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #73 on: June 07, 2021, 01:03:19 PM »
In the news this week ...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-57338207

This one is spicy because not only does this 'transwoman' want to compete, but he/she also wants to compete against female disabled athletes. Now ... Rooster, when you see the image of 'her' winning below ... do you think testosterone level should be the only consideration?



^ Does this look like a fair fight to you ... or a farse?
« Last Edit: June 07, 2021, 01:27:02 PM by Toddler Thork »
Rate this post.      👍 6     👎 1

*

Offline rooster

  • *
  • Posts: 3252
    • View Profile
Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #74 on: June 07, 2021, 03:26:51 PM »
In the news this week ...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-57338207

This one is spicy because not only does this 'transwoman' want to compete, but he/she also wants to compete against female disabled athletes. Now ... Rooster, when you see the image of 'her' winning below ... do you think testosterone level should be the only consideration?



^ Does this look like a fair fight to you ... or a farse?

Well, she is a disabled woman.

Quote
Valentina Petrillo: 'Better to be a slow happy woman than a fast unhappy man'
Good for her.

Quote
"Transgender women are now powering their larger frames with reduced muscle mass and reduced aerobic capacity and that can lead to disadvantages in terms of things like quickness, recovery and endurance."
Advantages are not guaranteed. But in the article they did mention the possibility of using handicaps where there is a clear advantage, which is not a bad idea if necessary. A middle ground where everyone is happy would be best.

Also, this is another person who transitioned later in life. She went through male puberty, which someone transitioning during highschool possibly will not do. The OP is about banning kids from sports.

Offline Action80

  • *
  • Posts: 662
    • View Profile
Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #75 on: June 07, 2021, 03:35:30 PM »
The OP is about banning kids from sports.
Hmmm...

How can you possibly comment on this issue at all, when you have no clue about what the OP even is?

I defy you to find mention of banning kids from sports in the OP.

*

Offline rooster

  • *
  • Posts: 3252
    • View Profile
Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #76 on: June 07, 2021, 03:47:39 PM »
The OP is about banning kids from sports.
Hmmm...

How can you possibly comment on this issue at all, when you have no clue about what the OP even is?

I defy you to find mention of banning kids from sports in the OP.

The first sentence of the article posted in the OP
Quote
On June 1, Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis signed a bill into law that would ban trans athletes from participating on female sports teams at the high school and college level.

Offline Action80

  • *
  • Posts: 662
    • View Profile
Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #77 on: June 07, 2021, 04:11:10 PM »
The OP is about banning kids from sports.
Hmmm...

How can you possibly comment on this issue at all, when you have no clue about what the OP even is?

I defy you to find mention of banning kids from sports in the OP.

The first sentence of the article posted in the OP
Quote
On June 1, Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis signed a bill into law that would ban trans athletes from participating on female sports teams at the high school and college level.
That clearly does not state trans kids are banned from playing sports.

*

Offline rooster

  • *
  • Posts: 3252
    • View Profile
Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #78 on: June 07, 2021, 04:17:42 PM »
That clearly does not state trans kids are banned from playing sports.
Ah, I assume you're suggesting they play sports on the team they don't identify with. Neat.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 8745
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #79 on: June 07, 2021, 05:46:38 PM »
Boys who think they are girls are simply boys who think that they are girls. They are not biological girls.

They have a gender identity which takes place in their head, as is argued by trannie proponents themselves. A physical sport involves more than the head, however. It involves the whole body. Despite whether the physical reality of the female brain is valid, it is agreed that they have male bodies, and so it is unfair for transexual males to compete with girls in girl sports.