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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: God will prove the earth is flat on the Day of Resurrection

« on: June 13, 2018, 07:31:45 PM »

So you concede that when the Bible mentions stars falling to earth, it's not talking about actual stars but rather meteors? Also, frankly I don't give two cents what the Quran says. I'm a Christian Jew who believes in the Bible. If you want to convince me by religious means, then use the Bible.

I do not concede to that, when the Bible mentions stars falling to earth it means stars not meteors.  I know you do not care about the Qur'an, which is why I refrained from using Qur'an verses as much as possible in my arguments except for this because you brought this new part up which the Qur'an directly mentions, whereas the Bible does not.  And I am not trying to convince you, I'm only posting so that others can read and those who use reason will understand.  And I'm sure that to you, the Qur'an sounds dumb saying that stars are thrown at devils and you'd probably say this is not a scientific book at all.  Yet if I told this Qur'an verse to Muslims, they would try to put some spin on it so that it could fit science.  You are doing the exact same thing they are, trying to spin the Bible to agree with science as Muslims try to spin the Qur'an to agree with science.  But neither of these Books agree with science and they are not supposed to.

Where does it says that?

The Qur'an says it and it's in my original post, I just did not reference it to the Qur'an.

20:105
And they ask you about the mountains, so say, "My Lord will blow them away with a blast.

20:106
And He will leave the earth a level plain;

20:107
You will not see therein any crookedness or any curve."

I did not said that the Bible never made mention of a physical structure in the sky. I said that the Bible never called that physical structure the firmament. Without going into detail, I believe there was a canopy surrounding the earth before Noah's flood that provided a protective barrier against the sun's harmful rays and pressurized the atmosphere. It all came down during the flood. But, back on point, The part about stretching out the heavens is in reference to God stretching out the universe and science has shown that the universe is expanding.

Whether it is called firmament or not is not my point.  There is a physical structure above the earth that's like a tent or a ceiling above the earth, which flat earthers typically call the dome.  The term heavens seems to be a broad term that encompasses the sky above and this physical structure and there are 7 heavens, which is not directly mentioned in the Bible, only the Qur'an, but the Bible does refer to heavens in the plural and singular, and 2 Corinthians 12:2 mentions the 3rd heaven, so there are multiple heavens even according to the Bible.  Science would not describe the universe as stretched or expanding like a tent or curtain.

As I said, I didn't said there wasn't a solid structure, I said the Bible didn't called that structure the firmament. And theoretically speaking, the canopy can work. However it's gone now and there's not much evidence to back up it's existence other than giant fossilized insects. and trapped air bubbles with 50% more oxygen.

Where in the Bible does it say this structure is gone now?  This is the structure that God rolls up on the Last Day, which is mentioned in the Torah, Gospel and the Qur'an.

I did not agree to anything. My point was if God was describing the earth as a flat disc he would've said "disc." Also if the earth is a disc then how can it have corners as flat earthers claim that verses talking about the four corners of the earth is evidence that the bible is saying the earth is flat. The answer to the circle thing is that the sphere is actually the most perfect example of a circle in a 3D universe. No matter how you look at it, it's a circle. With a disc, if I look at it from it's side it becomes a really skinny rectangle. With the four corners talked about in the Bible, it's referring to the four points of the compass.

I do not know the shape of the earth as in square or circle or whatever, except that it is not a sphere and it is for all intents and purposes spread out flat as a carpet.  If your point is that if the earth were a disc He would have said disc, then why do you not use that same reasoning and say if the earth were a sphere He would have said sphere?  He did not say sphere.

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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: God will prove the earth is flat on the Day of Resurrection

« on: June 13, 2018, 01:40:34 AM »

Back then, anything other than the sun and moon was catagorized as stars. To this very day we still call meteors shooting stars.

"Meteors" are shooting stars and are thrown at devils according to the Qur'an.  In my thread, I used Qur'an, Gospel, and Torah verses, not just Gospel, because all three Books make one religion, not 3 religions.

37:6 - 10, Qur'an
Indeed, We have adorned the nearest heaven with an adornment of stars and as protection against every rebellious devil [so] they may not listen to the exalted assembly [of angels] and are pelted from every side, repelled; and for them is a constant punishment, except one who snatches [some words] by theft, but they are pursued by a burning flame, piercing [in brightness].

Uh, it could be that the mountains are leveled and the globe will be a smooth surface.

It says you will not see any curvature, a globe has curvature, thus it could not be a smooth globe.

Nowhere in the Bible does it call any solid structure the firmament. The firmament is the sky where the birds fly.

Your signature of God sitting upon the circle of the earth, the next part of that verse says He stretches the heaven as a curtain and as a tent.  Curtains and tents are physical structures and definitely do not describe the globe model.  Also Genesis 1:6 - 8 describes the heaven as a firmament, which divides waters from above and below this firmament.  And when God flooded the earth, He opened windows or gates of heaven [54:11, Qur'an and Genesis 7:11] in order to let this water from above the firmament come down to the earth.  This is describing a physical structure and does not agree with science, no scientist would even take you seriously if you used these verses yet you will continue to try to say the Bible agrees with science.  It does not and neither does the Qur'an, for the Qur'an says

21:32, Qur'an
We made the heaven a protected ceiling, but they, from its signs, are turning away.

No 2D object can exists in real life. Any thickness and it becomes a cylinder or disc.

You just agreed that a circle is not a sphere, you said give a circle 3 dimensions by giving it thickness and it becomes a cylinder or a disc, neither of these are globes, which was exactly my point.  And if you look at the Hebrew for the word circle, it means circle or compass, not sphere or globe or ball.

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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Religion on Flat Earth

« on: June 12, 2018, 06:49:29 PM »

You asked why they would lie about flat earth.  The Qur'an states that Satan will mislead them all and he will command them to change the creation of God [4:119], this is why mankind says that the earth is a globe instead of flat.  They also say it took billions of years for the heavens and earth to be created when God said it took 6 days in Genesis and the Qur'an [50:38].  They also say mankind evolved from apes over millions of years instead of Adam being created from dust like Genesis and the Qur'an say.  Mankind follows Satan and have changed the creation of God.  But no change should there be in the creation of God, that is the correct religion, but most of the people do not know [30:30].  And so you have Christians and Muslims believing the earth is a globe and all those other changes because they do not know and take their religion as amusement and diversion and are thus deluded by the world [7:51].  They also divided the religion and became sects [23:52 - 53], yet God revealed the Qur'an, the Gospel, and the Torah [3:3 - 4], and indeed it is one religion, the religion of Abraham inclining toward truth [2:135].

For more verses from all 3 Books revealed by God and information on flat earth, read
https://quranicwarners.org/creation/

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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Free Will disproved

« on: June 12, 2018, 06:27:56 PM »

There is no free will, God chose and created all things:

Your Lord creates what He wills and chooses; not for them was the choice.  Exalted is God and high above what they associate with Him.  28:68, Qur'an

And you do not will except that God wills.  Indeed, God is ever Knowing and Wise.  76:30, Qur'an

Indeed, all things We created with predestination.  54:49, Qur'an

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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: God will prove the earth is flat on the Day of Resurrection

« on: June 12, 2018, 12:23:16 PM »

Nope. When God comes back, he'll everybody that the earth is round. Ever noticed that near death expiencers and those who claim to see visions when shown the earth, never mentioning it being flat?

Because when people nearly die they come back All-Knowing?  Where's your Scripture that says when God comes back He will prove that the earth is round?

To your first question. No, they don't come back all knowing but they do come back with a certain knowledge.Besides, when arguing about religion, it's best to stay within the religious text. To your second question, The Bible talks about every secret being made know on judgement day. So if God doesn't show that the earth is flat, then it's by default, round. Besides, we already have scientific data to prove that the earth is round.

"They come back with a certain knowledge" - you have no proof of that.  "It's best to stay within the religious text," yet your main point was bringing up people with near death experiences as your proof.  Everything I put in that post was from the Qur'an, the Gospel and the Torah except for quotes by what people say from science, so I did stay within the religious text.  God removes the mountains and has the stars fall from heaven and rolls the heaven as a scroll on the Day of Judgement.  Science, which you say proves the earth is round, says stars are larger than the earth, thus they could not fall to the earth.  The mountains are removed in order to level the earth and show that there is no curvature, thus proving it is flat.  The heavens are rolled as a scroll to prove that the heavens are a physical firmament and ceiling, not just vast open space like science says.  The only "proof" you have shown is Isaiah which says it's a circle, a circle is not a sphere, it is 2 dimensional, which would make the earth flat.

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Flat Earth Community / Re: Did Jesus preach that earth was a globe and was created in billions of years?

« on: June 11, 2018, 11:30:34 PM »

So if morning did not occur until after this it still does not matter, even if you want to say it took billions of years for the heavens and the earth to be created before the first day

The title of this thread is "Did Jesus preach that earth was a globe and was created in billions of years?" If the morning did not occur until after this does matter.


If the earth was created prior to the first morning (as the bible has written) then the we have no idea how much time passed prior to the first morning thus don't know if the earth was created in billions of years or 1 second.

If the earth was created after the first morning (which contradicts the bible) and you believe the first day to be a literal 24 earth hour period  then the earth was created in less than 24 hours.


This is just about the age of the earth. Which, according to the bible, is unknown.

If you want to greater analyze Genesis day there is great debate with translation, as well as interpretation. If the sun was not made to provide light to the earth prior to the 4th "day" were the previous 3 "days" earth days? If they were how was morning and evening on earth without the Sun? Maybe this indicates that the Genesis "days" were not literal earth days but some other measurement of time. When I say back in the day i'm referring to a period of time not a literal 24 hour earth period. Maybe the word day was only referring to the 12 or so hours between sunrise and sunset and not a 24 hour earth rotation?

Just answer the question I asked in the original post, not the title, the title has a character limit so I had to choose just part of the actual question.  We could go on forever arguing about all this and I have already heard these responses you and the others are giving me.

Did Jesus and the other prophets preach that the heavens and the earth were created in 6 days or in billions of years?  Did they preach the earth was flat or a globe?  And did they preach that man was created from clay or that man evolved from apes over millions of years?  Ultimately, did the prophets preach what the Bible was saying, or did they preach what science was saying at the time?

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Flat Earth Community / Re: Did Jesus preach that earth was a globe and was created in billions of years?

« on: June 11, 2018, 07:15:49 PM »

1.in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

Except that it says evening and morning were the first day, so it defined the first day as having an evening and a morning, as well as the 2nd to 6th as having an evening and morning.

Before the first morning the heavens and the earth were created. The first day did not begin until AFTER steps 1-4 listed above. It's pretty clear the morning didn't occur until AFTER the universe was created, light was created, and the light was separated from the darkness

So if morning did not occur until after this it still does not matter, even if you want to say it took billions of years for the heavens and the earth to be created before the first day, since that would still mean that God created the firmament of heaven in one day.  And on the third day, God created plants in one day.  Then on the fourth day, God made the stars and sun and moon on the fourth day in one day.  And on the fifth day, God created the whales and fowl in one day.  And on the sixth day God created the animals of the earth and man in one day.  None of that occurred in billions of years but rather days, which does not agree with science at all unless of course you continue to manipulate it and say it does not mean a day so you can conform Scripture to what atheists say because you want the glory of men rather than the glory of God.

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Flat Earth Community / Re: Did Jesus preach that earth was a globe and was created in billions of years?

« on: June 11, 2018, 03:49:11 PM »

It does, doesn't it? Although I believe "side" is a better interpretation than rib.
To be honest, I don't really understand early Genesis. But I believe the important truths are the fact that I am a creation, who I was created by and what I was created for, and my rebellion and need for salvation. These are the deeper truths of Genesis, I don't think it is to be read like a scientific textbook.

You are correct in that it is important to know that you were created by God and that all things were created by God.  But believing in science's creation story leads to atheism or doubt or the changing of God's Scriptures to conform to what men say, but it is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man, for the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.  However, believing in God's creation story only leads to believing in God alone and that God is the Creator of all things.

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Flat Earth Community / Re: Did Jesus preach that earth was a globe and was created in billions of years?

« on: June 11, 2018, 02:37:02 PM »

Jesus knows what really happened, He was there. It was actually made through him

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
John 1:1-3

But He didn't come to give people a science lesson and He was talking to a people nowhere near as advanced as we are now scientifically, He would have used language they understood.

As for being made from dust, the current scientific thinking is that elements are forged in stars and supernova then spew them across the universe, so if that's right we are actually made of stardust.

Except that Genesis says man was created from the dust of the earth, not stardust, and that Eve was created from Adam's rib.

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Flat Earth Community / Re: Did Jesus preach that earth was a globe and was created in billions of years?

« on: June 11, 2018, 02:35:47 PM »

Except that it says evening and morning were the first day, so it defined the first day as having an evening and a morning, as well as the 2nd to 6th as having an evening and morning.

I am pretty sure that if God told these people that were living thousands of years ago that the world was created from single point of pure energy that rapidly expanded faster than light and that is happened billions of years ago, they wouldnt even of known what was being said, let alone write it down.  Do you also believe that the early man lived hundreds of years?

Yes, both Genesis and the Qur'an give the final age of Noah to be 950 years.

Genesis 9:29
And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years, and he died.

29:14, Qur'an
We certainly sent Noah to his people, and he remained among them a thousand years minus fifty years, and the flood seized them while they were wrongdoers.

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Flat Earth Community / Re: Did Jesus preach that earth was a globe and was created in billions of years?

« on: June 11, 2018, 02:09:56 PM »

To Christians or Muslims who believe that the earth is a globe, did Jesus and the other prophets of God preach to the people that the earth was a globe, that man evolved from apes, and that the heavens and the earth were created in billions of years?  Or did they preach that the earth was flat, that man was created from clay, and that the heavens and the earth were created in 6 days?

Many things happened before the first "day"

the heavens and earth were created.
light was created
light was separated from darkness and named.
No one knows how long those things took.



1.in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

Except that it says evening and morning were the first day, so it defined the first day as having an evening and a morning, as well as the 2nd to 6th as having an evening and morning.

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Flat Earth Community / Re: Did Jesus preach that earth was a globe and was created in billions of years?

« on: June 11, 2018, 01:19:29 PM »

Jesus didn’t preach either.
Jesus came to give us salvation, not science.
The Bible shouldn’t be read like a science book, it contains deeper truths.
It tells us that we are a creation (leave it to science to work out when that happened and the mechanics of it), it tells us who we were created by and what we were created for. Science doesn’t say anything about this, it is not in the scope of science to determine whether we have a purpose.

Jesus did not preach either directly in the Gospel, but my question is if you use reason, would Jesus have agreed with Genesis's account and the Qur'an's account that God created Adam from dust, or would he have instead said man evolved from apes over millions of years?  And would Jesus have agreed that God created the heavens and the earth in 6 days as Genesis and the Qur'an say or instead that it took billions of years?

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Flat Earth Community / Re: Did Jesus preach that earth was a globe and was created in billions of years?

« on: June 11, 2018, 01:12:35 PM »

Jesus only wanted to rock the boat so much: otherwise he'd have been crucified right from the off.

But he did say: "you don't put new wine in old wineskins."

So then you're saying had Jesus wanted to rock the boat, he would have said that the earth was created in billions of years, not 6 days, and that man evolved from apes over millions of years, not that God created Adam from dust?

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Flat Earth Community / Re: Did Jesus preach that earth was a globe and was created in billions of years?

« on: June 11, 2018, 12:55:11 PM »

I'm pretty sure Jesus didn't say anything on the subject. Nothing anyone recorded, anyway.

Genesis and many other books do talk about these things, so would Jesus and the other messengers have said for example that Genesis was wrong, a day does not equal a day, each "day" equals billions of years like Christians and Muslims say now?  And would Jesus and the other messengers have said that God did not create Adam from dust, rather, God evolved Adam from apes over millions of years?

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Flat Earth Community / Did Jesus preach that earth was a globe and was created in billions of years?

« on: June 11, 2018, 01:38:57 AM »

To Christians or Muslims who believe that the earth is a globe, did Jesus and the other prophets of God preach to the people that the earth was a globe, that man evolved from apes, and that the heavens and the earth were created in billions of years?  Or did they preach that the earth was flat, that man was created from clay, and that the heavens and the earth were created in 6 days?

EDIT: Ultimately, my question is this, did the prophets preach what the revelations of God said about creation, or did they preach the changing ideas of what science said about creation?

Flat earth:
https://quranicwarners.org/creation/#flatearth

Created from clay:
https://quranicwarners.org/creation/#clay

6 days creation:
https://quranicwarners.org/creation/#six

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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: God will prove the earth is flat on the Day of Resurrection

« on: June 11, 2018, 01:24:28 AM »

Nope. When God comes back, he'll everybody that the earth is round. Ever noticed that near death expiencers and those who claim to see visions when shown the earth, never mentioning it being flat?

Because when people nearly die they come back All-Knowing?  Where's your Scripture that says when God comes back He will prove that the earth is round?

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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: God will prove the earth is flat on the Day of Resurrection

« on: June 11, 2018, 01:20:33 AM »

Do you have any real evidence of the above? Personal experience or Zetetic scientific evidence?
Personally I don’t believe, therefore what happens to me?

Nothing will happen to you now.  Whoever disbelieves, then let them disbelieve [18:29, Qur'an].  Your disbelief does not cause failure to God [24:57] and I am not held accountable for you [6:69], so disbelieve.

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Philosophy, Religion & Society / God will prove the earth is flat on the Day of Resurrection

« on: June 09, 2018, 11:26:14 PM »

On the Day of Resurrection, God will remove the mountains and you will see the earth a leveled plain, you will not see therein any crookedness or any curve, and those who mocked will be enveloped by what they used to ridicule.  Furthermore, the stars will fall from heaven to the earth, for they said they are giant luminous spheres of plasma.  And so the stars fell from heaven as a fig tree casts her untimely figs, when she is shaken by a mighty wind - for on that Day, the heaven will shake.  And the heavens will be rolled as a scroll, for God made the heaven a protected ceiling, but they from its signs are turning away.  For indeed they found their people astray.  So they hastened to follow in their footsteps.  And there had already strayed before them most of the former peoples, and God had already sent among them warners.  But when their messengers came to them with clear proofs, they merely rejoiced in what they had of knowledge, but they were enveloped by what they used to ridicule.

For these verses and far more from the Qur'an, Gospel, and the Torah, go to:
https://quranicwarners.org/creation/#flatearth