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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #60 on: September 18, 2017, 01:22:25 PM »
If you don't find the scenario depicted to be impossible then I don't see the purpose of further diagrams.
because this is not a correct analogy with the OP and if you want to convince me of the contrary you'll need to draw a diagram.  Frankly I don't understand your reluctance. It's a matter of a couple of minutes, if you know what you're talking about.

How is it not a correct analogy? Just replace the hand with a cloud and put the sun at the lowest light pole.

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #61 on: September 18, 2017, 01:26:09 PM »
If you don't find the scenario depicted to be impossible then I don't see the purpose of further diagrams.
because this is not a correct analogy with the OP and if you want to convince me of the contrary you'll need to draw a diagram.  Frankly I don't understand your reluctance. It's a matter of a couple of minutes, if you know what you're talking about.

How is it not a correct analogy? Just replace the hand with a cloud and put the sun at the lowest light pole.
the respective positions (in particular of the pov) and the  form of the objects are not the same. You need to draw a diagram. Please do it, or i'll have to conclude that you are not being debating honestly.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #62 on: September 18, 2017, 01:30:58 PM »
If you don't find the scenario depicted to be impossible then I don't see the purpose of further diagrams.
because this is not a correct analogy with the OP and if you want to convince me of the contrary you'll need to draw a diagram.  Frankly I don't understand your reluctance. It's a matter of a couple of minutes, if you know what you're talking about.

How is it not a correct analogy? Just replace the hand with a cloud and put the sun at the lowest light pole.
the respective positions (in particular of the pov) and the  form of the objects are not the same. You need to draw a diagram. Please do it, or i'll have to conclude that you are not being debating honestly.

This is an honest debate. I have shown that it is possible for a body low in altitude to appear higher than a body high in altitude. You seem to have no issue with the hand analogy being possible. Therefore your argument against a cloud being seemingly higher than a body at a higher altitude above it is defeated. No further discussion on the subject is required.

Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #63 on: September 18, 2017, 01:33:28 PM »
That is not a diagram by any stretch of the imagination. Try again
How is it not?
You need to draw all the objects, the ground, the point of view and the path of the light connecting them. That way you can ascertain the lines of view and who can see what from where. Yours is just a snapshot from the point of view.

Are you saying that it's impossible to put your hand above a light pole in the distance?
Yes, because your hand is not actually above the light pole in the distance. So yes, it's impossible to have your hand be above the light pole. You can have your hand be above where you perceive the light pole to be, but it is not actually above the light pole. The light from the lamp won't be hitting the bottom of your hand still. This is basic perspective Tom, a course you apparently missed. Something at height X, will never actually be above something at height Y assuming Y>X. By the same token, something below you, cannot appear on top of something above you. The hand in your image is now above you. The ground will never appear to be over one of the streetlights though. Perspective lines *meet* in the distance, they do not cross. They can't cross, because in reality the lines are actually parallel.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #64 on: September 18, 2017, 01:35:25 PM »
Yes, because your hand is not actually above the light pole in the distance. So yes, it's impossible to have your hand be above the light pole. You can have your hand be above where you perceive the light pole to be, but it is not actually above the light pole. The light from the lamp won't be hitting the bottom of your hand still. This is basic perspective Tom, a course you apparently missed. Something at height X, will never actually be above something at height Y assuming Y>X. By the same token, something below you, cannot appear on top of something above you. The hand in your image is now above you. The ground will never appear to be over one of the streetlights though. Perspective lines *meet* in the distance, they do not cross. They can't cross, because in reality the lines are actually parallel.

Your hand can appear above the light pole, therefore a cloud can appear above something higher above it.

/thread

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #65 on: September 18, 2017, 01:40:19 PM »
Yes, because your hand is not actually above the light pole in the distance. So yes, it's impossible to have your hand be above the light pole. You can have your hand be above where you perceive the light pole to be, but it is not actually above the light pole. The light from the lamp won't be hitting the bottom of your hand still. This is basic perspective Tom, a course you apparently missed. Something at height X, will never actually be above something at height Y assuming Y>X. By the same token, something below you, cannot appear on top of something above you. The hand in your image is now above you. The ground will never appear to be over one of the streetlights though. Perspective lines *meet* in the distance, they do not cross. They can't cross, because in reality the lines are actually parallel.

Your hand can appear above the light pole, therefore a cloud can appear above something higher above it.

/thread

This is actually wrong and is why you need to draw a diagram to scale. The distance from the cloud to the sun and the massive difference in height precludes this. I expect better from you.
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
-Terry50

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #66 on: September 18, 2017, 01:46:03 PM »
If you don't find the scenario depicted to be impossible then I don't see the purpose of further diagrams.
because this is not a correct analogy with the OP and if you want to convince me of the contrary you'll need to draw a diagram.  Frankly I don't understand your reluctance. It's a matter of a couple of minutes, if you know what you're talking about.

How is it not a correct analogy? Just replace the hand with a cloud and put the sun at the lowest light pole.
the respective positions (in particular of the pov) and the  form of the objects are not the same. You need to draw a diagram. Please do it, or i'll have to conclude that you are not being debating honestly.

This is an honest debate. I have shown that it is possible for a body low in altitude to appear higher than a body high in altitude. You seem to have no issue with the hand analogy being possible. Therefore your argument against a cloud being seemingly higher than a body at a higher altitude above it is defeated. No further discussion on the subject is required.
the point of view is different. The relatrelative positions are different. You haven't demonstrated anything. Draw the diagram.

Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #67 on: September 18, 2017, 01:47:01 PM »
Yes, because your hand is not actually above the light pole in the distance. So yes, it's impossible to have your hand be above the light pole. You can have your hand be above where you perceive the light pole to be, but it is not actually above the light pole. The light from the lamp won't be hitting the bottom of your hand still. This is basic perspective Tom, a course you apparently missed. Something at height X, will never actually be above something at height Y assuming Y>X. By the same token, something below you, cannot appear on top of something above you. The hand in your image is now above you. The ground will never appear to be over one of the streetlights though. Perspective lines *meet* in the distance, they do not cross. They can't cross, because in reality the lines are actually parallel.

Your hand can appear above the light pole, therefore a cloud can appear above something higher above it.

/thread
Not while your hand is below your plane of vision. As I said, you can have it above where you perceive the pole to be. But the light will not be radiating onto the bottom of your hand. Ergo, your hand still is not above the light pole, just like the sun still is not actually below the clouds and thus cannot be shining on the bottoms of them.

The ground cannot appear above the light pole can it? Can you see through the ground to see a light pole further away on flat ground? That is what you're claiming is happening to the sun here after all. The clouds are below your plane of vision. The sun is and always will be above it. So how does it get below it and below the clouds for this image? Remember, perspective is about how things appear in the distance, not how things are and it will not change what is happening in the real world.

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #68 on: September 18, 2017, 01:50:29 PM »
If you don't find the scenario depicted to be impossible then I don't see the purpose of further diagrams.
because this is not a correct analogy with the OP and if you want to convince me of the contrary you'll need to draw a diagram.  Frankly I don't understand your reluctance. It's a matter of a couple of minutes, if you know what you're talking about.
How is it not a correct analogy? Just replace the hand with a cloud and put the sun at the lowest light pole.
the respective positions (in particular of the pov) and the  form of the objects are not the same. You need to draw a diagram. Please do it, or i'll have to conclude that you are not being debating honestly.

This is an honest debate. I have shown that it is possible for a body low in altitude to appear higher than a body high in altitude. You seem to have no issue with the hand analogy being possible. Therefore your argument against a cloud being seemingly higher than a body at a higher altitude above it is defeated. No further discussion on the subject is required.
You have NOT demonstrated anything and you seem to be carefully ignoring my diagram that explains the problem here:



Recall: Light travels in straight lines (the blue line) and not in curved lines (the orange line) - so how exactly does the light from the sun light up the underside of the cloud?

Just tell us which path the light from the sun takes.  This shouldn't be a difficult question for you.

Please stop dodging this VERY simple question!
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #69 on: September 19, 2017, 12:12:51 AM »
You have NOT demonstrated anything and you seem to be carefully ignoring my diagram that explains the problem here:



Recall: Light travels in straight lines (the blue line) and not in curved lines (the orange line) - so how exactly does the light from the sun light up the underside of the cloud?

Just tell us which path the light from the sun takes.  This shouldn't be a difficult question for you.

Please stop dodging this VERY simple question!

The light does not take that path because your side-view depiction of perspective is invalid and not in line with reality.



Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #70 on: September 19, 2017, 12:43:35 AM »
That video is hilarious! Tom, have you never seen a building from the side? Not at an angle, as it's shown in this video, but actually from the side? Parallel lines remain parallel. It doesn't matter how things looks from the viewer's perspective in this case, because WE are not looking from his/her perspective, we are looking from the side. You are trying to dodge the question again, but no luck this time!

Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #71 on: September 19, 2017, 01:02:53 AM »
You have NOT demonstrated anything and you seem to be carefully ignoring my diagram that explains the problem here:



Recall: Light travels in straight lines (the blue line) and not in curved lines (the orange line) - so how exactly does the light from the sun light up the underside of the cloud?

Just tell us which path the light from the sun takes.  This shouldn't be a difficult question for you.

Please stop dodging this VERY simple question!

The light does not take that path because your side-view depiction of perspective is invalid and not in line with reality.


Tom, your video, no matter how many times you post it, is still garbage and doesn't address the problem of where the sun actually is! Yet again, your crazy perspective might be able to make the sun appear to set, but it would neither appear as the wonderful half sphere we see on the horizon, nor would it be able to shine it's light onto the bottom of clouds. Perspective doesn't change where an object is in the real world. You need to understand this fact or we're just going to repeat this same tired dance every time it's brought up. If you want to claim this about perspective, you need actual real world proof of an object crossing the line of another object via perspective without actually crossing that line in reality. Otherwise you're still stuck with the streetlamp problem. Lift your hand up above the light. Is the light suddenly hitting the bottom of your hand? No. So how does the sun's light hit the bottom of the clouds without hitting the top? How can we see the sun literally underneath the clouds when the clouds are below our plane of vision? Neither are possible with straight lines and perspective, even your fucked up version of it, because the lines don't cross and light travels in straight lines.

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #72 on: September 19, 2017, 01:15:18 AM »
Tom, using some random person's youtube video that the sun can set like it does in the real world isn't credible. Where is the peer reviewed data? How can we even begin to take you seriously when you refuse to accept anything that proves you wrong (thinking the SOFA software here) and then come back with this nonsense?? This STILL doesn't begin to explain how clouds can be lit from the bottom in a FE scenario because the clouds are subject to your version of perspective, as well.

On perspective, can you explain how an optical illusion has become the basis for so much of FET?

Also, the real CRITICAL question is, why doesn't your sun get smaller as it travels away? If a small sun is only 3000 miles overhead, it should appear MUCH smaller when it is 6000 miles away. Should it not? At 6000 miles, away, it would be a tiny speck.

TIL FEers think youtube is a treasure trove of science and that real scientists are just a bunch of liars looking to...do something bad. Thank you youtube!
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #73 on: September 19, 2017, 01:47:55 AM »
You have NOT demonstrated anything and you seem to be carefully ignoring my diagram that explains the problem here:



Recall: Light travels in straight lines (the blue line) and not in curved lines (the orange line) - so how exactly does the light from the sun light up the underside of the cloud?

Just tell us which path the light from the sun takes.  This shouldn't be a difficult question for you.

Please stop dodging this VERY simple question!

The light does not take that path because your side-view depiction of perspective is invalid and not in line with reality.

Then tell us what is incorrect about my diagram?   The sun is at the correct height - the horizontal distance is appropriate for noon (at the right) and sunset (towards the left).

The cloud is where it seems it should be and the blue line is a straight line (as you say it should be) for where the sunlight must hit the cloud.  I just don't see how the blue line can hit the underside of the cloud.

The orange line could - but it can't be right because you and I both agree about light travelling in straight lines.

Then we have our stick-man observer looking up at the clouds - just a few miles away - and wondering how come the underside of the cloud is orange.

Reality allows use to draw side-views does it not?   So do tell which elements of my diagram are incorrect.   All of the diagrams you usually post are side-views...aren't I allowed a side-view?

Does FET physics somehow disallow side-views?

Please let us continue to discuss this diagram because I don't think you've told us what's ACTUALLY wrong about it.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #74 on: September 19, 2017, 02:07:42 AM »
Then tell us what is incorrect about my diagram?   The sun is at the correct height - the horizontal distance is appropriate for noon (at the right) and sunset (towards the left).

Watch the video. It goes over the error of those scenes. You have presented a non-perspective side view scene which takes place outside of the universe. It does not properly account for perspective. Perspective is not seen that way. Perspective is seen from a view where everything intersects with the vanishing point. You are presenting a geometric scene which disregards empirical perspective. Under your scheme it is impossible for any receding body to ever intersect with a vanishing point -- a scenario which is not seen to occur.

Quote
Reality allows use to draw side-views does it not?   So do tell which elements of my diagram are incorrect.   All of the diagrams you usually post are side-views...aren't I allowed a side-view?

Side-view can be fine, but your scene does not properly account for perspective. The author of the video I embedded provides a more accurate side-view depiction of perspective.

The error with your illustration, specifically, is that the cloud would see the sun at the horizon near the vanishing point, due to the perspective that is not properly depicted, not high above it. The light is coming from the side, not above.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 02:13:34 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #75 on: September 19, 2017, 02:18:57 AM »
Then tell us what is incorrect about my diagram?   The sun is at the correct height - the horizontal distance is appropriate for noon (at the right) and sunset (towards the left).

Watch the video. It goes over the error of those scenes. You have presented a non-perspective side view scene which takes place outside of the universe. It does not properly account for perspective. Perspective is not seen that way. Perspective is seen from a view where everything intersects with the vanishing point. You are presenting a geometric scene which disregards empirical perspective. Under your scheme it is impossible for any receding body to ever intersect with a vanishing point -- a scenario which is not seen to occur.

Quote
Reality allows use to draw side-views does it not?   So do tell which elements of my diagram are incorrect.   All of the diagrams you usually post are side-views...aren't I allowed a side-view?

Side-view can be fine, but your scene does not properly account for perspective. The author of the video I embedded provides a more accurate side-view depiction of perspective.

The error with your illustration, specifically, is that the cloud would see the sun at the horizon near the vanishing point, due to the perspective that is not properly depicted, not high above it. The light is coming from the side, not above, since the horizon is at 90 degrees from zenith.

OK - so lets ELIMINATE perspective from the argument by doing this:

Suppose I'm some distant viewer - on a mountain that's a little lower than the height of the clouds off to the South of the Sun...with  Cloud over to the North-West.   I would see the sun and the under-lit cloud - all from the side view...yes?   Since it's noon for me now, the sun is high in the sky.

I call the little stick figure guy on my cellphone and he says "Hey - that cloud off to your North West is being lit from the underside!

Would not the scene that unfolds look very much like my diagram?   How would *I* see the light rays travelling?

You see, the problem with claiming that "perspective" did it - is that perspective looks different from different places.   If "perspective did it" - how does the cloud "know" where you're looking at it from so it can simultaneously glow orange for some people and be a silvery grey for other people?

I'm sorry - but perspective simply isn't REMOTELY able to explain this.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 02:21:44 AM by 3DGeek »
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #76 on: September 19, 2017, 02:37:21 AM »
Then tell us what is incorrect about my diagram?   The sun is at the correct height - the horizontal distance is appropriate for noon (at the right) and sunset (towards the left).

Watch the video. It goes over the error of those scenes. You have presented a non-perspective side view scene which takes place outside of the universe. It does not properly account for perspective. Perspective is not seen that way. Perspective is seen from a view where everything intersects with the vanishing point. You are presenting a geometric scene which disregards empirical perspective. Under your scheme it is impossible for any receding body to ever intersect with a vanishing point -- a scenario which is not seen to occur.

Quote
Reality allows use to draw side-views does it not?   So do tell which elements of my diagram are incorrect.   All of the diagrams you usually post are side-views...aren't I allowed a side-view?

Side-view can be fine, but your scene does not properly account for perspective. The author of the video I embedded provides a more accurate side-view depiction of perspective.

The error with your illustration, specifically, is that the cloud would see the sun at the horizon near the vanishing point, due to the perspective that is not properly depicted, not high above it. The light is coming from the side, not above.
You still ignore explaining the view of the sun from multiple positions and different times of day.

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #77 on: September 19, 2017, 02:38:28 AM »
Then tell us what is incorrect about my diagram?   The sun is at the correct height - the horizontal distance is appropriate for noon (at the right) and sunset (towards the left).

Watch the video. It goes over the error of those scenes. You have presented a non-perspective side view scene which takes place outside of the universe. It does not properly account for perspective. Perspective is not seen that way. Perspective is seen from a view where everything intersects with the vanishing point. You are presenting a geometric scene which disregards empirical perspective. Under your scheme it is impossible for any receding body to ever intersect with a vanishing point -- a scenario which is not seen to occur.

Quote
Reality allows use to draw side-views does it not?   So do tell which elements of my diagram are incorrect.   All of the diagrams you usually post are side-views...aren't I allowed a side-view?

Side-view can be fine, but your scene does not properly account for perspective. The author of the video I embedded provides a more accurate side-view depiction of perspective.

The error with your illustration, specifically, is that the cloud would see the sun at the horizon near the vanishing point, due to the perspective that is not properly depicted, not high above it. The light is coming from the side, not above.

Tom, in your view do you see perspective as a function of the eye or an actual physical change in the world? I'm often confused by how you use perspective to explain things.
Also, could you explain the squished photon thing?
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 02:42:33 AM by StinkyOne »
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
-Terry50

Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #78 on: September 19, 2017, 02:53:15 AM »

OK - so lets ELIMINATE perspective from the argument by doing this:


 -- I think you're letting him off the hook to easily!

The author of the video I embedded provides a more accurate side-view depiction of perspective.

Nope, it provides an erroneous depiction of perspective. When viewed from the side, a distance away, parallel lines remain parallel. Here's a video I just made to demonstrate this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/l0e7yca4uk2y836/IMG_0081.MOV?dl=0 In my video, the view from above onto the entire page shows parallel lines, just like the surface of the supposedly flat earth and the sun that supposedly travels over it in the diagram 3D made. You see the lines begin to converge ONLY when I move the camera closer to one end of the lines. The video you posted is a typical example of flerfer confusion: the author is wrongfully using converging lines in a side view, which never occurs.

Thoughts?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #79 on: September 19, 2017, 10:41:12 AM »

OK - so lets ELIMINATE perspective from the argument by doing this:

Suppose I'm some distant viewer - on a mountain that's a little lower than the height of the clouds off to the South of the Sun...with  Cloud over to the North-West.   I would see the sun and the under-lit cloud - all from the side view...yes?   Since it's noon for me now, the sun is high in the sky.

I call the little stick figure guy on my cellphone and he says "Hey - that cloud off to your North West is being lit from the underside!

Would not the scene that unfolds look very much like my diagram?   How would *I* see the light rays travelling?

The cloud is not being lit from the underside. It's being lit from the side. The sun is at the horizon for the cloud -- which is the cloud's side.

The sun's light is a band which rises upwards when it sets, much like in the intro scene of Disney's Gargoyles. Just above the line of darkness is an area of orange, where the light of the sun turns orange before completely setting. The picture happens to catch the cloud when it is half-way intersected with the orange, the lower portion being illuminated with orange, and your interpretation is that it is being illuminated from below rather than from the side. With more time more of the cloud would become orange, and eventually become dark from the bottom up as sunset passes.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 10:57:19 AM by Tom Bishop »