Online SteelyBob

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2021, 02:03:53 PM »
Celestial navigation was based on the fact of a celestial sphere, not an earthly sphere.
Indeed. But how would a celestial sphere, as opposed to the universal model we now work to, change navigation? Aside from tiny, tiny parallax errors, which can be used to estimate distances between stars, there would be almost no measurable difference. The important point for both models is the requirement for the earth to be spherical - otherwise why, for example, would the pole stars' altitude angles equate to the latitude of the observer? 

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Just stop with the BS.
Until you explain why it's BS, it's gonna keep coming your way I'm afraid. Just shouting 'it's BS', or 'it's absurd' doesn't make it so. You need evidence, preferably better than a misunderstood appeal to authority dating back to 1693.
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Ship navigation today is still performed with Loran, which in turn was based on stuff hundreds, if not thousands of years ago.
Citation needed. That's hilarious. Are there even any Loran stations left? Please, please let's talk about Loran. We can discuss its range limitations, and the distance between places. Comedy gold...

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You know all this and try to claim some level of experience not necessary for accomplishment, indicating both inexperience and little real world accomplishment.

Fast becoming a tired old joke, regardless of alt.

Well, come up with some evidence to actually refute some of the technical, evidence based stuff that's being discussed here and maybe people will take you seriously. Are you seriously suggesting for example, that directional gyros don't correct for earth's rotation using a compensation based on the sine of the latitude?

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Offline RonJ

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2021, 02:16:11 PM »
The claim that sailors bet their lives on any "fact," the earth is a globe is just plain false.
I see you have no appreciation of King Neptune and how harsh of a task master he can be.  For centuries navigation at sea was based upon celestial navigation that on its very foundation assumes that the earth is a sphere.  Without accurate navigation a ship can and will run aground.  Today the GPS system is also based upon the same global earth model and electronically does about the same thing as old time sailors used to do with a map, compass and sextant.  Just take a look at the latest news of the boat that turned over near San Diego.  People died.  There are many sea mounts out in the middle of the ocean.  If a ship hits that it will run aground.  I have worked way below deck in the extreme forward bow section with only an inch of steel between me and the sea.  If the ship ran aground during those times I would surely have died.  Would you have the confidence to work in places like that on a ship if you weren't extremely confident in the navigation system and the shape of the earth it's based upon?  If you are on a ship there can be no discussion or debate upon the shape of the earth, that information is KNOWN by all crew members.
Celestial navigation was based on the fact of a celestial sphere, not an earthly sphere.

Just stop with the BS.

Ship navigation today is still performed with Loran, which in turn was based on stuff hundreds, if not thousands of years ago.

You know all this and try to claim some level of experience not necessary for accomplishment, indicating both inexperience and little real world accomplishment.

Fast becoming a tired old joke, regardless of alt.
Wow, you are quite the troller.  Everything you said indicates that.  I could go into a lot of detail here, but then that's the troller's objective, manipulation.  The last ship I was an officer on still had a LORAN system aboard but it had been decommissioned for many years. Just about all the land based LORAN transmitting stations have been shut down for many years now and using a LORAN system at sea these days is impossible.  The GPS system is the primary form of navigation on all ships in service today.  Celestial navigation is still possible and all USA flagged vessels are still required to carry sextants aboard as a backup in the highly unlikely case of a complete GPS failure.  These days a modern ship is nothing but a floating computer.  The modern GPS receivers continuously transmitted the ship's position, course, and speed on a data buss and that data was available on all other equipment that needed it.  Lots of other equipment had their own independent GPS receivers so there was lots of redundancy and that made things safer and more reliable. I am a merchant marine academy graduate and have many thousands of documented days at sea as a ship's officer.  You can dispute that all you want but it will be from your own ignorance. 
You can lead a flat earther to the curve but you can't make him think!

Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2021, 05:29:08 PM »
Yet you reject any conclusion that has been reached by application of the scientific method.

Quite the opposite! However it will take time and your earnest interest to recognize that.

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You judging anybody for being "vain", is just too rich.  ::)

My statement was inclusive, not exclusive. It is OUR vain beliefs that we struggle against when we endeavor to be objective/scientific.  Our intuition/belief/bias most often gets in the way of that.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 05:48:03 PM by jack44556677 »

Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2021, 05:44:27 PM »
This is just another polite way of saying "I don't care how much data you have or what your measuring instruments are, don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up".

Not at all! The main point is that you don’t have that data.  Furthermore, if you did we would still have to discuss the interpretation of it - which is heavily contingent on preexisting bias.

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The next question then would be:  Would you be willing to stake you life on what you think you KNOW?  I KNOW the earth is spherical, I've confirmed it, and on that I'm willing to bet my life on what I KNOW.  Sailors do it often.

My certainty varies with specific fact/knowledge, as with all of us.  The shape of the world is not part of sailing, the skills to sail are.  I know that you ardently believe the world is spherical, and are willing to “bet your life” on that faith - however that is very different and distinct from your sailing knowledge and ability!

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Those who live in their mother's basement don't and frequently troll just for fun.  Do you KNOW that?

Lol, ad hom will not help you understand or be understood (quite the opposite!).

In fairness, I don’t like the trolls either (regardless of where they live or how much income, or sailing experience, they have).  I will not troll you, nor anyone if I can help it.  I can only hope to convey my sincerity adequately through repeated interaction.  I come here for rational discourse above all else.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 05:49:06 PM by jack44556677 »

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Offline RonJ

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2021, 06:27:29 PM »
This is just another polite way of saying "I don't care how much data you have or what your measuring instruments are, don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up".
Not at all! The main point is that you don’t have that data.  Furthermore, if you did we would still have to discuss the interpretation of it - which is heavily contingent on preexisting bias.


Not trolling? -- You just made an accusation that I would consider to be of a trolling nature.  You have absolutely no idea of what kind or how much data I have.  There's no way you could know is there?  I KNOW that only way you could appreciate the nature of a gyroscopes' data would be for you to actually spend some time on a ship operating in dangerous waters and observe the relevant data for yourself.  I can see that you have no confidence in what others have to say no matter what their qualifications happen to be.  Even if I would share that data it would most likely be a useless exercise because of your apparent lack of knowledge of exactly what a gyroscope can and cannot do and I'm not in the business of teaching.   


Quote

The next question then would be:  Would you be willing to stake you life on what you think you KNOW?  I KNOW the earth is spherical, I've confirmed it, and on that I'm willing to bet my life on what I KNOW.  Sailors do it often.

My certainty varies with specific fact/knowledge, as with all of us.  The shape of the world is not part of sailing, the skills to sail are.  I know that you ardently believe the world is spherical, and are willing to “bet your life” on that faith - however that is very different and distinct from your sailing knowledge and ability!

Your above statement is another demonstration of either ignorance or of trolling.  Navigation is a very essential part of sailing.  Engineers can make a ship go but if the navigator steers the ship into the rocks then bad things can happen. Remember the Costa Concordia?  Ships navigation, these days, is based strictly on a spherical earth model.  There's plenty of places in the oceans where the rocks are under the water and can't be seen from the surface.  This is where accurate navigation is critical.     

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Those who live in their mother's basement don't and frequently troll just for fun.  Do you KNOW that?

Lol, ad hom will not help you understand or be understood (quite the opposite!).

In fairness, I don’t like the trolls either (regardless of where they live or how much income, or sailing experience, they have).  I will not troll you, nor anyone if I can help it.  I can only hope to convey my sincerity adequately through repeated interaction.  I come here for rational discourse above all else.


Rational discourse if fine, but before you engage you must have some knowledge of the discussion material.  I can see from your previous statements that you don't have the expertise to engage in a meaningful discussion of nautical things and celestial navigation.  If you wish to continue please educate yourself first.  It would also be very helpful for you to charter a boat of some kind an take a 1000 mile trip so you can appreciate what it means to depend upon navigational instruments when you are 100's of miles from any land.  It would be even better to find a place where there's some navigational hazards and some heavy fog.  Then you will appreciate what it's like to have some confidence in a navigators skills.   
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 06:30:06 PM by RonJ »
You can lead a flat earther to the curve but you can't make him think!

Online SteelyBob

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2021, 08:20:41 PM »
This is just another polite way of saying "I don't care how much data you have or what your measuring instruments are, don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up".

Not at all! The main point is that you don’t have that data.  Furthermore, if you did we would still have to discuss the interpretation of it - which is heavily contingent on preexisting bias.

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The next question then would be:  Would you be willing to stake you life on what you think you KNOW?  I KNOW the earth is spherical, I've confirmed it, and on that I'm willing to bet my life on what I KNOW.  Sailors do it often.

My certainty varies with specific fact/knowledge, as with all of us.  The shape of the world is not part of sailing, the skills to sail are.  I know that you ardently believe the world is spherical, and are willing to “bet your life” on that faith - however that is very different and distinct from your sailing knowledge and ability!

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Those who live in their mother's basement don't and frequently troll just for fun.  Do you KNOW that?

Lol, ad hom will not help you understand or be understood (quite the opposite!).

In fairness, I don’t like the trolls either (regardless of where they live or how much income, or sailing experience, they have).  I will not troll you, nor anyone if I can help it.  I can only hope to convey my sincerity adequately through repeated interaction.  I come here for rational discourse above all else.

Here's some light reading for you.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiem43L6bDwAhWRSxUIHZ-SATkQFjAGegQICBAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.jrc-europe.com%2Ffiles%2Fsecured%2Fsharepoint_documents%2F161-Gyro%2BAM%2BAlphaMiniCourse%2BInstOper%2BManual%2B3-7-2019.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2STVc_8kcS0y5psZQiqBNX

Note the introductory blurb on principles of operation, and the sections on latitude correction and what to do when you operate close to either pole:

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While the latitude becomes higher (to the North or to the South) the value of the horizontal
component of earth rotation is decreasing proportionally to the latitude cosine. Hence, the
higher the latitude, the less efficient is the gyro compass operation as a north-seeking device.


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Offline RonJ

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2021, 01:50:24 AM »
The ships I worked aboard generally didn't use JRC gyros but their radar products were sometimes installed.  Usually I would see either Sperry or Anschutz directional gyroscopes installed.  If you take a quick look at chapter 2.1.3 of the JRC manual it details the auxiliary inputs coming from the ship's speed log and/or the GPS receiver.  Every gyro that I ever worked on had a couple of RS232 data lines running into the gyros for both Latitude and Speed compensation.  If you spend some time learning the theory about these products you will see that a spinning earth is absolutely required for these instruments to work.  Typically if I were to shut down a unit for maintenance it would take many hours for an accurate course to again be registered after power up of the gyros.  These are very important instruments for the operation of any ship so we usually had at least 2 gyros installed and sometimes 3.  The autopilot, the radars, and the electronic map displays all required accurate heading inputs to display the proper information to the ship's navigator.  You wouldn't think all this would be necessary because you could just look out the window.  What if it was raining hard or if the ship was in heavy fog?  What if the ship was operating in a busy shipping lane during bad weather conditions.  Just like an aircraft operating in clouds a ship these days requires plenty of instruments to operate efficiently.  Everything is also logged while underway.  There's a chart recorder on the rudder indicator and on the fathometer.  Data from about all of the other critical instruments are also fed to the ship's data recorder (black box) so if anything bad happens there will be a complete record including everything that was said on the bridge, radio, and ship's phone.  You can be sure that the ship's crew isn't screwing around while carrying 500 million bucks worth of cargo.  Everything correlates.  The ship's crew is taught that the earth is spherical.  All the navigation equipment operates on that basis.  The navigator's calculations assume that.  Many ship's operate on a regular schedule with known distances and we usually keep the schedule as long as the weather cooperates.


So now, just where am I 'missing the boat'  ???   In the classic Zetetic way a spherical earth theory was formulated.  That meant certain things had to be true.  Maps were made based upon the theory.  Navigation methods based upon spherical trigonometry is taught and then practiced while you are a cadet aboard a ship.  All these steps are then practiced while on the job and everything is demonstrated and shown to work time & time & time again by 1000's of ships all over the world.  This situation is more than all the indoctrination that your are exposed to at the academy.  After you start work if the indoctrination doesn't actually work in the real world environment at sea it would be come very obvious, wouldn't it?  You can't fake it while at sea. King Neptune is a very harsh task master and will kill you if you ignore the dangers.  Either your navigational skills work (based upon the spherical model) or the ship doesn't make it to the next scheduled port on time and you have to answer for that deficiency.   
« Last Edit: May 05, 2021, 03:39:16 AM by RonJ »
You can lead a flat earther to the curve but you can't make him think!

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Online Tumeni

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2021, 01:15:19 PM »
Celestial navigation was based on the fact of a celestial sphere, not an earthly sphere.

How could you map/determine a celestial sphere without the underlying land/sea mass from which you observe it also being a sphere?

Surely FE dictates a celestial hemisphere, not a sphere...
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Offline Action80

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2021, 04:20:57 PM »
Celestial navigation was based on the fact of a celestial sphere, not an earthly sphere.
The important point for both models is the requirement for the earth to be spherical - otherwise why, for example, would the pole stars' altitude angles equate to the latitude of the observer?
All points above an x-y plane would appear as being in cylinder.

The earth doesn't need to be a sphere in order for the pole star to change angles relative to the observer's latitude.

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Just stop with the BS.
Until you explain why it's BS, it's gonna keep coming your way I'm afraid. Just shouting 'it's BS', or 'it's absurd' doesn't make it so. You need evidence, preferably better than a misunderstood appeal to authority dating back to 1693.
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Ship navigation today is still performed with Loran, which in turn was based on stuff hundreds, if not thousands of years ago.
Citation needed. That's hilarious. Are there even any Loran stations left? Please, please let's talk about Loran. We can discuss its range limitations, and the distance between places. Comedy gold...

Quote
You know all this and try to claim some level of experience not necessary for accomplishment, indicating both inexperience and little real world accomplishment.

Fast becoming a tired old joke, regardless of alt.

Well, come up with some evidence to actually refute some of the technical, evidence based stuff that's being discussed here and maybe people will take you seriously. Are you seriously suggesting for example, that directional gyros don't correct for earth's rotation using a compensation based on the sine of the latitude?
[/quote]
As far as the rest of this, nothing, including Loran when it was instituted, actually had much of an overall effect of the routes taken and practices implemented by any seafaring nation.

For all practical purposes, the knowledge we use at sea and how to navigate is still based on celestial navigation and sextants.

Sextants had a flat bottom to match the flatness of the earth upon which we sail today.

Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2021, 04:24:34 PM »

All points above an x-y plane would appear as being in cylinder.

The earth doesn't need to be a sphere in order for the pole star to change angles relative to the observer's latitude.


But it does for everyone to view a pole star as due north/south regardless their longitude.
Lol "Everyone is Wrong and LiEeInG"
That is a desperate argument from a losing position. An argument from a position of strength would have positive evidence for that position.

Offline Action80

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2021, 04:31:35 PM »

All points above an x-y plane would appear as being in cylinder.

The earth doesn't need to be a sphere in order for the pole star to change angles relative to the observer's latitude.
But it does for everyone to view a pole star as due north/south regardless their longitude.
As soon as you can account for everyone at the same time, come back and discuss this more in depth.

Online SteelyBob

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2021, 05:14:31 PM »
The earth doesn't need to be a sphere in order for the pole star to change angles relative to the observer's latitude.

No, it doesn't. But it does need to be a sphere in order for the altitude angle of the pole stars to be equal to the observer's latitude. If you disagree, please show on a diagram how this phenomenon could work on a flat earth.

I notice you've completely ignored my question, so I'll repost it here:

Are you seriously suggesting for example, that directional gyros don't correct for earth's rotation using a compensation based on the sine of the latitude?

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As far as the rest of this, nothing, including Loran when it was instituted, actually had much of an overall effect of the routes taken and practices implemented by any seafaring nation.

For all practical purposes, the knowledge we use at sea and how to navigate is still based on celestial navigation and sextants.
I think we broadly agree on that, although I'd throw in compass bearings as well, and the assumption that the earth is round.

Quote from:  WTF_Seriously on Today at 04:24:34 PM
Quote from:  Action80 on Today at 04:20:57 PM

All points above an x-y plane would appear as being in cylinder.

The earth doesn't need to be a sphere in order for the pole star to change angles relative to the observer's latitude.
But it does for everyone to view a pole star as due north/south regardless their longitude.
As soon as you can account for everyone at the same time, come back and discuss this more in depth.

What, exactly, are you suggesting? If I'm in Argentina observing Sigma Octantis are you saying that I might be looking at a different thing to an observer in South Africa looking at the same star? Or do you have some other explanation for the fact that we'd be looking at the same thing but facing in different directions if the earth was flat?

Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2021, 05:24:22 PM »

All points above an x-y plane would appear as being in cylinder.

The earth doesn't need to be a sphere in order for the pole star to change angles relative to the observer's latitude.
But it does for everyone to view a pole star as due north/south regardless their longitude.
As soon as you can account for everyone at the same time, come back and discuss this more in depth.

All points above an x-y plane would appear as being in cylinder.

The earth doesn't need to be a sphere in order for the pole star to change angles relative to the observer's latitude.
But it does for everyone to view a pole star as due north/south regardless their longitude.
As soon as you can account for everyone at the same time, come back and discuss this more in depth.

The stupid thing about this continued argument is that you only need two points of observation, say Australian East Coast and West Coast which without question are viewing the same southern pole star, separated by over 30 degrees longitude both viewing the southern pole star at a direction due south.
Lol "Everyone is Wrong and LiEeInG"
That is a desperate argument from a losing position. An argument from a position of strength would have positive evidence for that position.

Offline Action80

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2021, 05:30:50 PM »
The earth doesn't need to be a sphere in order for the pole star to change angles relative to the observer's latitude.

No, it doesn't. But it does need to be a sphere in order for the altitude angle of the pole stars to be equal to the observer's latitude. If you disagree, please show on a diagram how this phenomenon could work on a flat earth.

I notice you've completely ignored my question, so I'll repost it here:

Are you seriously suggesting for example, that directional gyros don't correct for earth's rotation using a compensation based on the sine of the latitude?
Your question is a non sequitur, considering none of the travel routes taken have changed drastically since  first embarkation.
Quote
As far as the rest of this, nothing, including Loran when it was instituted, actually had much of an overall effect of the routes taken and practices implemented by any seafaring nation.

For all practical purposes, the knowledge we use at sea and how to navigate is still based on celestial navigation and sextants.
I think we broadly agree on that, although I'd throw in compass bearings as well, and the assumption that the earth is round.
I assume the earth is flat and use a compass just as well as the next fella and seldom get lost for long.

Quote from:  WTF_Seriously on Today at 04:24:34 PM
Quote from:  Action80 on Today at 04:20:57 PM

All points above an x-y plane would appear as being in cylinder.

The earth doesn't need to be a sphere in order for the pole star to change angles relative to the observer's latitude.
But it does for everyone to view a pole star as due north/south regardless their longitude.
As soon as you can account for everyone at the same time, come back and discuss this more in depth.
What, exactly, are you suggesting? If I'm in Argentina observing Sigma Octantis are you saying that I might be looking at a different thing to an observer in South Africa looking at the same star? Or do you have some other explanation for the fact that we'd be looking at the same thing but facing in different directions if the earth was flat?
I am saying you are not in Argentina, never have been in Argentina, and would have no freaking clue about what any particular Argentinian would be observing at any particular point in time.

Not to mention it is not possible for people in South Africa and Argentina and Australia to witness Sigma Octantis at the same time.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2021, 05:44:24 PM by Action80 »

Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2021, 05:34:00 PM »
I am saying you are not in Argentina, never have been in Argentina, and would have no freaking clue about what any particular Argentinian would be observing at any particular point in time.

Thanks for the clarification.  We can now ignore 99% of anything you say because you have obviously not personally witnessed it.  That sure makes life easier.
Lol "Everyone is Wrong and LiEeInG"
That is a desperate argument from a losing position. An argument from a position of strength would have positive evidence for that position.

Online SteelyBob

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2021, 05:36:46 PM »
The stupid thing about this continued argument is that you only need two points of observation, say Australian East Coast and West Coast which without question are viewing the same southern pole star, separated by over 30 degrees longitude both viewing the southern pole star at a direction due south.

Yep. And we've been here before: https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=17638.msg230419#msg230419

We've come at this two different ways. Firstly, as my post above showed, there are cases where you can view Sigma Octantis simultaneously from South America, Africa and Australia simultaneously. But if you aren't happy with that, as you rightly say, you can simply consider one place, like Australia, take a bearing from Sig Oct, and then move, say, 100 miles in longitude and repeat the exercise. Sig Oct will still be on the same bearing.

Action80 dismissed all this as 'patently false' without offering much apart from the fact that Sig Oct is hard to see. The thread then, like so many others, died off as nobody seemed to want to tackle the subject any more.

So here we are again. 

Online SteelyBob

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2021, 05:45:20 PM »

Your question is a non sequitur, considering none of the travel routes taken have changed drastically since  first embarkation.


That just makes no sense whatsoever. Either gyros are drift compensated, or they aren't. Which is it?


I am saying you are not in Argentina, never have been in Argentina, and would have no freaking clue about what any particular Argentinian would be observing at any particular point in time.

Is that seriously the level you're debating at? Fortunately, I don't need to go to Argentina, as there is wealth of data out there. You said yourself, ships navigate using celestial navigation. To do this they need star charts, and to understand the relationship between the stars and maps. And any star chart will tell you that Sig Oct is pretty much bang on due true south, wherever you view it from, at an altitude equal to your latitude in the Southern Hemisphere. So either the star charts you said sailors rely on are wrong, or you're wrong. Either way, you're wrong. Which wrong do you think you are?

Offline Action80

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2021, 05:45:55 PM »
I am saying you are not in Argentina, never have been in Argentina, and would have no freaking clue about what any particular Argentinian would be observing at any particular point in time.

Thanks for the clarification.  We can now ignore 99% of anything you say because you have obviously not personally witnessed it.  That sure makes life easier.
You didn't need this bit of knowledge to demonstrate willful ignorance of impossible things potentially happening.

Offline Action80

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2021, 05:52:22 PM »

Your question is a non sequitur, considering none of the travel routes taken have changed drastically since  first embarkation.


That just makes no sense whatsoever. Either gyros are drift compensated, or they aren't. Which is it?
The operation of gyroscopes also are independent of the shape of the earth.

Non-sequitur.

You might as well be talking about an Illodium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator.
I am saying you are not in Argentina, never have been in Argentina, and would have no freaking clue about what any particular Argentinian would be observing at any particular point in time.

Is that seriously the level you're debating at? Fortunately, I don't need to go to Argentina, as there is wealth of data out there. You said yourself, ships navigate using celestial navigation. To do this they need star charts, and to understand the relationship between the stars and maps. And any star chart will tell you that Sig Oct is pretty much bang on due true south, wherever you view it from, at an altitude equal to your latitude in the Southern Hemisphere. So either the star charts you said sailors rely on are wrong, or you're wrong. Either way, you're wrong. Which wrong do you think you are?
The wealth of data indicates independent observations of Sigma Octantis cannot occur in South Africa, Argentina, and Australia at the same time.

Come back when you got something substantive to offer, okay?

You already conceded that ocean going travel and airborne travel have not changed significantly since first embarkation.

Given both are done primarily by line of sight and have no real need for a spherical earth to happen, I think we are done here.

Bye now.

Online SteelyBob

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Re: i dont understand someone help please
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2021, 06:34:45 PM »
The operation of gyroscopes also are independent of the shape of the earth.

Non-sequitur.

You might as well be talking about an Illodium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator.

No, that's not even close to being a non-sequitur. I'm simply asking you to agree or disagree with my statement to the effect that directional gyroscopes have drift compensation that is a function of their latitude.

The point is that a gyroscopic instrument will suffer from both topple and drift due to transport and the earth's rotation - these effects would not be present on a non-rotating flat earth. I've shown both on this thread and on many others that aviation and maritime directional gyro devices have well documented drift compensation mechanisms. The drift wouldn't be there if the earth wasn't rotating, and the compensation wouldn't be linked to the sine of the latitude if the earth wasn't a sphere.

You might not understand this, and you might not like it, but it is true. I'm very happy to listen to any counter argument you may have, but all you've offered is variations on 'it's not true', which isn't very convincing.

The wealth of data indicates independent observations of Sigma Octantis cannot occur in South Africa, Argentina, and Australia at the same time.

What 'wealth of data' is that then?

I've previously showed you a reliable website that clearly shows that it can be dark in all thee places simultaneously, meaning the night sky, weather permitting of course, will be visible simultaneously. You are welcome to challenge this, if you wish, with evidence. You might argue that website is wrong - that's fine, let's see some proof. We can maybe look at some webcams or something along those lines to verify that it gets dark when predicted.

The other aspect to the argument is whether or not Sig Oct is always due south. Again, you're very welcome to put forward an argument, maybe supported by your hitherto undisclosed wealth of data, showing that Sig Oct is in fact not always true south. Of course, think carefully about that, because you've already agreed that celestial navigation is central to maritime travel, so which star charts do you think sailors use?

Come back when you got something substantive to offer, okay?

I've shown you lot's of evidence. You've completely ignored it, along with my questions. Let's see your 'wealth of evidence', and let's have some answers.

You already conceded that ocean going travel and airborne travel have not changed significantly since first embarkation.

Given both are done primarily by line of sight and have no real need for a spherical earth to happen, I think we are done here.

No, I agreed, broadly speaking, that navigational principals, in terms of celestial navigation, use of compasses, and globe-based maps, haven't changed that much since man first navigated the open seas. Your second sentence doesn't make any sense at all - it's not clear what you mean by 'line of sight', and good luck navigating across the southern pacific with a flat earth map. At least, I suppose, you won't run out of rations - it's nothing like as big as you think.