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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: My Happiest Thought
« Reply #80 on: April 18, 2021, 03:25:45 PM »
If you read the paper by Joseph Levy you would find that on page 10-11 and in his conclusion he says that the aether version of time dilation results from measurement distortion, and that this measurement distortion of time creates identical predictions to SR. How could it be a coincidence that the two are mathematically identical? Levy states that it is not a coincidence. It is not a coincidence because SR is merely trying to simulate the measurement distortion effect.

Einstein didn't "build off the work" of others. He stole and appropriated equations to come up with his alternative theory.

Offline fisherman

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Re: My Happiest Thought
« Reply #81 on: April 18, 2021, 07:06:50 PM »
If you read the paper by Joseph Levy you would find that on page 10-11 and in his conclusion he says that the aether version of time dilation results from measurement distortion, and that this measurement distortion of time creates identical predictions to SR. How could it be a coincidence that the two are mathematically identical? Levy states that it is not a coincidence. It is not a coincidence because SR is merely trying to simulate the measurement distortion effect.

If Levy’s results are indistinguishable from special relativity, then why should we prefer one over the other?  You need to look at which theory can be better incorporated into other accepted principles.  In this case, it is SR.

The ether theory violates the action-reaction principle.  The motion through the ether causes a slowing down of the moving clocks, but how does the slowing down of the moving clocks, in turn, effect the ether?  In contrast, in SR, the motion through spacetime causes spacetime to warp, which in turn causes the clocks to slow down. Warping of spacetime gives us a path to the cause of gravity.

There is no direct path from ether to gravity.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2021, 07:12:15 PM by fisherman »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: My Happiest Thought
« Reply #82 on: April 19, 2021, 07:16:38 PM »
Say I create an equation showing that it takes longer to walk around a football field than to walk across it. You then come along and use my equation and claim that the time delay was a result of "spacetime distortion".

Obviously we have one explanation which can actually fundamentally explain a situation, and another explanation which uses stolen equations and which invokes an explanation in a hidden untestable layer of reality.

Why should the untestable "spacetime distortion" explanation be given any credence?

Offline fisherman

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Re: My Happiest Thought
« Reply #83 on: April 19, 2021, 07:44:03 PM »
Say I create an equation showing that it takes longer to walk around a football field than to walk across it. You then come along and use my equation and claim that the time delay was a result of "spacetime distortion".

Obviously we have one explanation which can actually fundamentally explain a situation, and another explanation which uses stolen equations and which invokes an explanation in a hidden untestable layer of reality.

Why should the untestable "spacetime distortion" explanation be given any credence?

Tom, you have a basic misunderstanding of the concept of what “the warping of space time” is. A more appropriate analogy would be if I measure the time it takes me to make a lap around a football field, why would someone else measure a different time?

The bottom line is you can’t assign the reason to the ether without violating the action-reaction principle.  And "spacetime distortion" is not hidden.  Its called framedragging.  It certainly isn't more hidden or any more untestable that the "ether whirlpool".

Offline scomato

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Re: My Happiest Thought
« Reply #84 on: April 20, 2021, 09:33:50 AM »
Say I create an equation showing that it takes longer to walk around a football field than to walk across it. You then come along and use my equation and claim that the time delay was a result of "spacetime distortion".

Obviously we have one explanation which can actually fundamentally explain a situation, and another explanation which uses stolen equations and which invokes an explanation in a hidden untestable layer of reality.

Why should the untestable "spacetime distortion" explanation be given any credence?

Spacetime distortion is not only testable but the phenomenon is practically applied every day, in correcting GPS satellites desynchronizing of time caused by relativistic effects. 'Untestable' is a blatant lie, it is both testable, observable, and applied in day-to-day life.

The warping of spacetime literally causes errors in GPS positioning due to clocks ticking slower due to the warping of spacetime. Flat Earth doesn't have an explanation for time dilation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Error_analysis_for_the_Global_Positioning_System#Relativity

« Last Edit: April 20, 2021, 09:35:33 AM by scomato »

Offline fisherman

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Re: My Happiest Thought
« Reply #85 on: April 20, 2021, 04:05:26 PM »
Spacetime distortion is not only testable but the phenomenon is practically applied every day, in correcting GPS satellites desynchronizing of time caused by relativistic effects. 'Untestable' is a blatant lie, it is both testable, observable, and applied in day-to-day life.

The warping of spacetime literally causes errors in GPS positioning due to clocks ticking slower due to the warping of spacetime. Flat Earth doesn't have an explanation for time dilation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Error_analysis_for_the_Global_Positioning_System#Relativity
[/quote]

You don't even have to get that technical to test it. 

Take a circular disk in an inertial frame.  Its geometry will be Euclidean, the geometery of flat surfaces. If  the disk is ten feet in diameter, it means that we can lay 10 foot long rulers across the diameter and the circumference is pi x 10 feet, which is about 31 feet.   That means that we can work around the full circumference of the disk by laying 31 rulers around the outer rims of the disk.   

Take another disk, same diameter, put it in circular motion. It will take more than 31 rulers to work around the circumference of the disk. Circumference is no longer = pi* 10 feet.  Flat Euclidean geometry doesn’t apply when the disk is rotated.  The shape of space is different when an object is in motion.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: My Happiest Thought
« Reply #86 on: April 20, 2021, 05:28:50 PM »
Incorrect. Clocks "ticking slower" doesn't prove Special Relativity. That is exactly what we have been talking about. It is also explained by assuming that light is moving in reference to a fundamental frame in Newtonian space.

It's the same situation as the football field example. A person is walking in reference to the frame of the football field. An equation can be made showing that he can walk across the football field faster than walking around it. Aether theory likewise merely proposes that light moves in reference to a fundamental frame.

Obviously if you take the above football field equation and use it for an alternate theory that "spacetime bent" to cause the time delay to happen it is nonsense unless you can confirm that spacetime is actually bending through direct experimentation. The existence of the time delay itself does not prove that the fabric of time bent. And since this spacetime "prediction" also matches the non-spacetime prediction with a clear physical explanation, it is clear that that the spacetime explanation should be discarded for the absurdity it is.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2021, 05:58:34 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline fisherman

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Re: My Happiest Thought
« Reply #87 on: April 20, 2021, 05:43:16 PM »
Quote
It's the same situation as the football field example. A person is walking in reference to the frame of the football field. An equation can be made showing that he can walk across the football field faster than walking around it. Aether theory likewise merely proposes that light moves in reference to a fundamental frame.

Again, you don't understand the concept at all.  It takes longer to walk around a football field than to go through it because the distance is different  When the distance is different, obviously the time will be.

If we are both measuring the time it takes me to make a lap around a football field and I get a different measurement than you...then we have two different times to travel the same distance

Two completely different concepts.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: My Happiest Thought
« Reply #88 on: April 20, 2021, 05:59:27 PM »
Quote
It's the same situation as the football field example. A person is walking in reference to the frame of the football field. An equation can be made showing that he can walk across the football field faster than walking around it. Aether theory likewise merely proposes that light moves in reference to a fundamental frame.

Again, you don't understand the concept at all.  It takes longer to walk around a football field than to go through it because the distance is different

The distance is also different in the two versions of the light clock example you gave that we looked at earlier:



The distance the light has to travel isn't the same on the left hand version and the right hand version. Obviously if light is traveling at a set speed in each version, there will be a delay in bouncing between the mirrors on the right side with the moving clock since there is a greater distance the light has to travel to make the route.

Yet you persist in repeating that "spacetime bent" to cause a slowdown of time on the right hand version, and think that it is a better explanation than the two scenarios simply having different distances.  ::)

Offline fisherman

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Re: My Happiest Thought
« Reply #89 on: April 20, 2021, 06:08:19 PM »
Quote
The distance the light has to travel isn't the same on the left hand version and the right hand version. Obviously if light is traveling at a set speed in each version, there will be a delay in bouncing between the mirrors on the right side since there is a greater distance the light has to travel to make the route.

That's the point.  The amount of space the light has to travel to bounce between one end of the clock increases if the clock is moving.  Why? Because it has to move horizontally and vertically, as opposed to just vertically when it is still.

If it is just moving through horizontal space when it is still to get from one end of the clock to the other, but must move through vertical and horizontal space when it is moving, the the shape of the space between the ends of the light clock through which the light moves is different when it is moving than when it is stationary.

EDIT: The problem with your football field analogy is that unlike the ends of the light clock, which never changes, the distance across the 50 yard line and a lap around the whole field is different.  In essence, your using two different light clocks.  If the distance between the ends of one light clock is 20 yards and the difference between the ends of the other light clock is 100 yds...of course your going to come up with different times to travel between the two ends.

A better analogy if you want to stick with the football field is that it would take longer to run a lap around the field if you "zig zag" from one side of the track to the other, while at the same time moving around it.