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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2021, 01:33:53 AM »
Quote from: JSS
No To, you are the only one who is confused and thinking 'our brain makes the Moon rotate'.  That's your statement, not anyone elses.

I'm not sure if you haven't been paying attention but we CAN test this.  The string test works fine, and I'll see if I can't perform some other tests on my own when I can see the Sun again.

So your answer is that we can't test this with pencils or objects around us. Only the Moon does this.

And we need to use the string experiment, which we know is not reliable to show where bodies are pointing, to prove your optical illusion of the brain and to prove that the illuminated portion of the Moon is pointing at the Sun.

Got it. You have nothing for us then. Just stop. You don't have an explanation for this. Your explanation has devolved into arguing that this applies to some objects but not others, and that we need to use fallacious experiments to prove your unintelligible illusions.

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Offline JSS

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2021, 01:40:11 AM »
Quote from: JSS
No To, you are the only one who is confused and thinking 'our brain makes the Moon rotate'.  That's your statement, not anyone elses.

I'm not sure if you haven't been paying attention but we CAN test this.  The string test works fine, and I'll see if I can't perform some other tests on my own when I can see the Sun again.

So your answer is that we can't test this with pencils or objects around us. Only the Moon does this.

You're making things up again, nowhere did I say this.

And Tom... I did in fact test this with objects around us.  Are you even paying attention?  ::)



And we need to use the string experiment, which we know is not reliable to show where bodies are pointing, to prove your optical illusion of the brain and to prove that the illuminated portion of the Moon is pointing at the Sun.

No, you seem to think it's unreliable for unknown reasons, the rest of us understand how it works.  It's been explained to you enough, figure it out.

Got it. You have nothing for us then. Just stop. You don't have an explanation for this. Your explanation has devolved into arguing that this applies to some objects but not others, and that we need to use fallacious experiments to prove your unintelligible illusions.

No Tom, you are once more putting words in my mouth and only showcasing your own confusion.  I'm pretty clear in stating the moon-tilt illusion is what happens when you take a wide angle picture of a straight line and it appears curved.

If you can't understand that simple concept, perhaps you need to stop until you can understand it.

Offline scomato

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2021, 01:42:03 AM »
Oh, so our brain makes the Moon rotate but nothing else that we can test. Clearly, your deductive powers are amazing.

This explanation might seem good and well in your mind, but this is clearly more objective nonsense from you. I would suggest working with your RE friends to get your act together and come up with a compelling argument that doesn't rely on tricks the brain plays on us with the Moon but is otherwise untestable.

Tom, here is a simple test I can do with the moon. I was taught this experiment in the 1st grade when we started to learn about the Earth, Moon and Solar System. I go outside into an empty field (no artificial or reflected light sources) during the day when the moon is visible in the sky, and I hold out a ping pong ball in the air. The illumination and shadow of the ping pong ball is always the same as the illumination and shadow of the moon.





This would suggest that both the moon and the ping pong ball are both being lit by parallel light rays being emitted by the sun. This, combined with lunar and solar eclipses, proves conclusively that the Earth is Round, that the Moon orbits the Earth, and that the Earth orbits the Sun.


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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2021, 01:43:36 AM »
Quote from: scomato
balls

You are using a close range perspective effect with a ball at close range to get it to point like the Moon. With slight movements around the ball you can get it to point in a variety of different directions.

If you are instructing people to hold out an object and get it to point like the moon and align them near each other you are just telling them to use close range perspective effects to get your desired result.

Close range perspective effects are incredibly flexible and dynamic as to where you can get a body to point.

I took a scene that uses three bodies of interest (cones). There is a green cone that points parallel, a purple cone that is tilted upwards, and a yellow cone that tilts downwards. The purple and yellow cones are pushed further back into the background than the green cone. The green cone is near a position over the work plane (you can see part of its shadow on it)

Pre-Experiment Overview Angle 1:



Pre-Experiment Overview Angle 2:



It wasn't that hard to move the camera around and find a point where the green cone was pointing in the same direction like the purple and yellow cones. I'm moving the camera here, not the cones.

In this one I got it to align with purple:



In this one I got it to align with yellow:



The possibilities are so dynamic that I also have some control of how far away I want the objects to be from each other while pointing in the same direction. Here is the green cone pointing like the purple cone, but this time green and purple seem to be further away from each other:



Again, I only moved the camera, not the bodies.


Quote
This would suggest that both the moon and the ping pong ball are both being lit by parallel light rays being emitted by the sun. This, combined with lunar and solar eclipses, proves conclusively that the Earth is Round, that the Moon orbits the Earth, and that the Earth orbits the Sun.


Nope. Look at how the phases work in the FE model. The Moon is also on the opposite side of the Sun during Full Moon - https://wiki.tfes.org/Electromagnetic_Acceleration#Lunar_Phases

If your argument is that similar phases appear when you hold out a ball, then holding out a ball during Full Moon will also give a Full Moon to the ball in the FE model when your back faces the Sun.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2021, 02:15:20 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline JSS

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2021, 01:50:45 AM »
You are using a close range perspective effect with a ball at close range to get it to point like the Moon. With slight movements around the ball you can get it to point in a variety of different directions.

If you are instructing people to hold out an object and get it to point like the moon and align them near each other you are just telling them to use close range perspective effects to get your desired result.

Wrong.

You can't "point" a sphere in any direction you want!  What are you even thinking here.

No matter how you hold or rotate it, the shadow will always be facing away from the light source. 

Get a ball and try this yourself before speaking more nonsense.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2021, 02:00:19 AM »
No, I didn't say "any direction". I said a variety of different directions. You can use close range perspective effects to get a ball or a pencil or any close range object to point upwards or downwards to match something in the distance very easily.

As for why the ball "generally" matches the Moon's phase in relation to the Sun, the ball will also be full with your back to the sun in the FE model during the times near Full Moon. This "ball experiment" shows nothing. I would suggest looking further into this and actually coming up with something that can only be true in your model.  During the time near Full Moon holding out a ball with your back to the sun on the horizon will cause the ball to be full.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Electromagnetic_Acceleration#Lunar_Phases



A man holds out a ball sometime during the gibbous phases. Sun is behind him setting on the horizon due to EA. The ball he holds out is full.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2021, 02:29:33 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline JSS

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2021, 02:08:35 AM »
No, I didn't say "any direction". I said a variety of different directions. You can use close range perspective effects to get a ball or a pencil or any close range object to point upwards or downwards to match something in the distance very easily.

Prove it. The next time the Sun and Moon are out, get a ping pong ball and hold it up in front of the Moon and turn and spin however you want to get a picture of both where the shadows don't match.

Take pictures and show us this magical "close range perspective effect" of yours.

If you actually try this, you will see how wrong you are.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2021, 02:36:46 AM »
No, I didn't say "any direction". I said a variety of different directions. You can use close range perspective effects to get a ball or a pencil or any close range object to point upwards or downwards to match something in the distance very easily.

Prove it. The next time the Sun and Moon are out, get a ping pong ball and hold it up in front of the Moon and turn and spin however you want to get a picture of both where the shadows don't match.

Take pictures and show us this magical "close range perspective effect" of yours.

If you actually try this, you will see how wrong you are.

Examples demonstrating this were already given. An example was given with a green parallel cone which shifted in angle to point upwards or downwards to match the purple or yellow cones in the background. I could move the camera in the scene and get the green cone to point in a variety of different directions.

When you move your view to below an object it shifts in angle to point upwards. Looking at a body from different orientations will cause it to change angle.

« Last Edit: February 20, 2021, 02:40:47 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline JSS

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2021, 02:41:48 AM »
No, I didn't say "any direction". I said a variety of different directions. You can use close range perspective effects to get a ball or a pencil or any close range object to point upwards or downwards to match something in the distance very easily.

Prove it. The next time the Sun and Moon are out, get a ping pong ball and hold it up in front of the Moon and turn and spin however you want to get a picture of both where the shadows don't match.

Take pictures and show us this magical "close range perspective effect" of yours.

If you actually try this, you will see how wrong you are.

Examples demonstrating this were already given. An example was given with a green parallel cone which pointed upwards or downwards to match the purple or yellow cones in the background. I could move the camera in the scene and get the green cone to point in a variety of different directions.

Tom, a cone is not a sphere. ::)

Seriously.  Actually try what you're describing.  You might learn something.

Offline scomato

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #49 on: February 20, 2021, 03:31:34 AM »
No, I didn't say "any direction". I said a variety of different directions. You can use close range perspective effects to get a ball or a pencil or any close range object to point upwards or downwards to match something in the distance very easily.

As for why the ball "generally" matches the Moon's phase in relation to the Sun, the ball will also be full with your back to the sun in the FE model during the times near Full Moon. This "ball experiment" shows nothing. I would suggest looking further into this and actually coming up with something that can only be true in your model.  During the time near Full Moon holding out a ball with your back to the sun on the horizon will cause the ball to be full.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Electromagnetic_Acceleration#Lunar_Phases



A man holds out a ball sometime during the gibbous phases. Sun is behind him setting on the horizon due to EA. The ball he holds out is full.

I don't know why you put "generally" in quotes because this observation is perfect. Try it yourself!

I am not sure also what you mean by the illumination of the ball being influenced by my perspective of an observer? In your demonstration you are changing the camera position around the scene, until you get a view where the cones are pointed in the same direction. but how does that translate into the real world at all?

I also don't see the relevance of the direction of pointed cones - we are talking about ping pong balls. Balls can't be pointed in any direction, they are balls.

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #50 on: February 20, 2021, 05:28:42 AM »
The Moon Tilt Illusion is a good one to look at in depth, and is easily accessible - https://wiki.tfes.org/Moon_Tilt_Illusion

Although RE claims to have answers for this, those answers really don't work.

Actually the answers do work, even mathematically, you just purposefully omitted them.

At the top of your Moon Tilt Illusion wiki page you cite and heavily quote this paper:

The Moon Tilt Illusion
Professor Myers at the University of Pennsylvania provides the following description:
http://www.upenn.edu/emeritus/essays/MyersMoon.html

What you leave out is this whole section under the heading: 1 The Nature of the Illusion which is regarding figure 1 which you have in the wiki as well you just failed to publish the description of what figure 1 is all about. Here it is for reference:



The photograph in Figure 1 provides an example of the moon tilt illusion. The moon’s illumination is observed to be coming from above, even though the moon is high in the sky and the sun had set in the west one hour before this photo was taken. The moon is 45◦ above the horizon in the southeast, 80% illuminated by light from the sun striking the moon at an angle of 17◦ above the horizontal, as shown by the arrow drawn on the photograph. Our intuition (i.e., the incorrect perception that creates the illusion) is that given the relative positions of the sun and the moon, the light from the sun should be striking the moon from below. The moon tilt illusion is thus the perceived discrepancy between the angle of illumination of the moon that we observe (and can capture photographically with a camera pointed at the moon) and the angle that we expect, based on the known locations of the sun and the moon in the sky.

In section 3, Cause of Moon Tilt Illusion she continues:

The cause of the moon tilt illusion is simply that the observer is not taking into account the rules of perspective that dictate that the observed slope of the light ray will change when he turns his head to observe the moon and sun. This perceptual disconnect occurs because the observer cannot see the light ray itself, but only its starting position at the sun and the angle at which it strikes the moon. Without any other visual cues to provide more information, he is perceptually unable to envision how the slope of a visible line overhead changes with viewing angle due to perspective projection.

The paper continues on to show exactly how the Moon Tilt Illusion manifests itself mathematically, from an RE perspective.

What is odd is that you are heavily citing a paper in your wiki that directly contradicts everything you are claiming. So what is that all about?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #51 on: February 20, 2021, 07:08:02 AM »
No. The Wiki does go over the explanations in that document. I would suggest you read all of it. Professor Myers says that the Moon Tilt Illusion is caused by lines turning into curves on the "celestial sphere":

https://wiki.tfes.org/Moon_Tilt_Illusion#Celestial_Sphere

'In the paper The Moon Tilt Illusion (Archive) by Adrea and Alan Myers, the following is stated:

  “ The moon tilt illusion is not described in astronomy textbooks because astronomers know that straight lines in object space become great circles on the celestial sphere. Minnaert [5] gives only a passing reference: “...the line connecting the horns of the moon, between its first quarter and full moon, for instance, does not appear to be at all perpendicular to the direction from sun to moon; we apparently think of this direction as being a curved line. Fix this direction by stretching a piece of string taut in front of your eye; however unlikely it may have seemed to you at first you will now perceive that the condition of perpendicularity is satisfied”. An article by Sch¨olkopf [8] documents the illusion in an experiment involving 14 subjects by having them indicate their expectation of how the moon’s illumination should be oriented with respect to the position of the (visible) sun. He reports that an average discrepancy of 12◦ is perceived by the subjects between the observable versus expected orientation of the moon’s bright limb. Schott’s website entitled “ ‘Falsche’ Mondneigung” (‘False’ Moontilt) [9] is devoted to the moon tilt illusion, and features illustrations and useful links. Schott correctly proposes to quantify the effect by comparing the observed tilt angle with the angle from horizontal of the line connecting the moon and sun, but an error in geometry leads to an incorrect expression for the expected tilt. A paper by Glaeser and Schott [2], approaching the phenomenon via the principles of photography, show that the magnitude of the illusion could in theory be measured through comparison of a close-up shot of the moon with a photograph containing both sun and moon, with the camera directed in a specified direction between them (although no equations are given). However, as they point out, in practice it is not feasible since even a wide-angle lens cannot capture both sun and moon in a photo with azimuth differences for which the illusion can be most clearly observed (between 90◦ and 180◦). Berry[1] proposed using a star chart, which is a zenith-center stereoscopic projection of the celestial sphere onto a flat surface, to define the moon tilt illusion as the angle between the projected great circle and a straight moon-sun line drawn on the same chart “mimicking how we might see the sky when lying on our back looking up”. Clearly, there exists a lack of consensus in the literature about the explanation of the moon tilt illusion and disagreement about the best way to describe it.

~

Astronomers rely upon the celestial sphere model for maps of the sky because locations of stars and constellations depend only on their right ascension and declination. For the topocentric model used for the sun and the moon, location is specified by azimuth and altitude. All objects in the sky are assumed to be located at the same distance from the observer, as if pasted upon the surface of an imaginery sphere surrounding the observer. Astronomers, for whom the celestial sphere model is a basic tool for mapping the stars, are not surprised by the apparently curved path of light from the sun to the moon because they know that straight lines in 3-D object space are transformed to great-circle arcs on the imaginary celestial sphere. ”

We are told that straight lines become curved when looking into the sky because of the "celestial sphere" which exists above our heads.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Moon_Tilt_Illusion#Celestial_Sphere_2

'Previously, we had read that Professor Myers told us about the curving of light on the celestial sphere as cause of the Moon Tilt Illusion. He states:

  “ Astronomers, for whom the celestial sphere model is a basic tool for mapping the stars, are not surprised by the apparently curved path of light from the sun to the moon because they know that straight lines in 3-D object space are transformed to great-circle arcs on the imaginary celestial sphere. [2] ”

  “ The scientific explanation is based on the projection of a straight line onto the surface of a sphere [3] ”

  “ The moon tilt illusion is not described in astronomy textbooks because astronomers know that straight lines in object space become great circles on the celestial sphere. [4] ”'
« Last Edit: February 20, 2021, 07:14:49 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #52 on: February 20, 2021, 08:22:06 AM »
This is all tremendously entertaining, Tom, I do hope this goes on a few more pages. What sort of experiment can the OP do with the Moon Tilt Illusion? And have you done as I have, have you actually tried the ping pong ball experiment yourself? Do let us know!
Once again - you assume that the centre of the video is the centre of the camera's frame. We know that this isn't the case.

Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #53 on: February 20, 2021, 10:06:29 AM »
And we need to use the string experiment, which we know is not reliable to show where bodies are pointing, to prove your optical illusion of the brain and to prove that the illuminated portion of the Moon is pointing at the Sun.
Once again, bodies don't point. If a spherical object is illuminated by a distant light source - distant enough that the light rays are in effect parallel - then the light source will illuminate half the object. And the light must be coming from a direction perpendicular to the terminator on the object



In your example you can see from the 3D view that the cone doesn't point at the sun, but the point of the string experiment is that it demonstrates that the sun could be illuminating the moon. To the naked eye it looks like it can't because of the angles, the string demonstrates that this is merely an optical illusion and there is indeed a straight line perpendicular to the terminator on the moon which intersects the sun. And sure, it could be that the light is doing a weird arc away from us and hitting the moon but that isn't how light operates. Maybe this is where you think EA helps but your continued inability to explain how this illusion is a prediction of EA is noted, and very telling. All you have to do is draw a diagram to demonstrate.

You are using a close range perspective effect with a ball at close range to get it to point like the Moon. With slight movements around the ball you can get it to point in a variety of different directions.

As usual, your inability to understand perspective is causing you to miss the point of this experiment and the significance of the result.
Because perspective is important here. The moon is lit by a distance sun. In real life half of the moon is always illuminated, half is always in darkness.
But because of our changing perspective over time we don't always see a half moon. Sometimes we see almost all of the illuminated side, sometimes we see almost none.

The point is IF the sun is distant and illuminating the moon then if you hold up a ball so that from your perspective it lines up with the moon then the parallel rays from the sun should illuminate the ball in the same way. So you should see the same "phase" on the ball as you do the moon. "A" is your viewing position:



If you don't line them up then yes, you'll see different phases. That's the exact point.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2021, 10:21:05 AM by AllAroundTheWorld »
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline JSS

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #54 on: February 20, 2021, 12:05:42 PM »
https://wiki.tfes.org/Moon_Tilt_Illusion#Celestial_Sphere_2

'Previously, we had read that Professor Myers told us about the curving of light on the celestial sphere as cause of the Moon Tilt Illusion. He states:

  “ Astronomers, for whom the celestial sphere model is a basic tool for mapping the stars, are not surprised by the apparently curved path of light from the sun to the moon because they know that straight lines in 3-D object space are transformed to great-circle arcs on the imaginary celestial sphere. [2] ”

  “ The scientific explanation is based on the projection of a straight line onto the surface of a sphere [3] ”

  “ The moon tilt illusion is not described in astronomy textbooks because astronomers know that straight lines in object space become great circles on the celestial sphere. [4] ”'

No Tom, you and the Wiki have completely misunderstood these quotes.  The celestial sphere doesn't 'cause' anything because it's not real.

You seem to think when astronomers talk about the celestial sphere that they are talking about an actual, physical sphere up there that holds all the stars, like your dome.  This is wrong and shows your total lack of comprehension on this subject.  The celestial sphere is just shorthand for talking about objects so far away from us that they in effect, can be treated mathematically as being a sphere.  But no astronomer thinks there is an actual sphere, and even the shorthand is discarded when measuring parallax or other precise observations.

So all these quotes are saying the same thing that that everyone else here is trying to teach you... that you can't project from a 3d space onto a 2d object without causing distortions and turning lines into curves. Please try and learn this concept, it's important.

Just like this image I took proves, mapping a 3d space onto the 2d camera sensor can make straight lines look curved.

It's really that simple, you just can't seem to understand when extra details are added, as your confusion over this paper and not knowing what a celestial sphere is.



Will you try the ping pong ball experiment?  I'm very curious to see your results and your techniques for 'pointing a sphere'. 

  “ Astronomers, for whom the celestial sphere model is a basic tool for mapping the stars, are not surprised by the apparently curved path of light from the sun to the moon because they know that straight lines in 3-D object space are transformed to great-circle arcs on the imaginary celestial sphere. [2] ”

“ The moon tilt illusion is not described in astronomy textbooks because astronomers know that straight lines in object space become great circles on the celestial sphere. [4] ”'

Once again the point of your own quotes seems to go right over your head.  The moon-tilt illusion is not taught to astronomers because with their knowledge it's obvious to what causes it, and thus they don't need it explained to them.  Because "they know" already.  It's blindingly obvious to anyone witch basic knowledge of astronomy or geometry why this is the case.

You however, do not have either of these.  Please read your own sources more carefully as you are showing a concerning lack of understanding them.  Copy-pasting quotes from sources you don't take the time to fully understand is a poor, lazy and ineffective debating technique and is no substitute for actually learning the material.

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #55 on: February 20, 2021, 09:59:34 PM »
Here is a better diagram and explanation of the Moon Tilt Illusion. Tom, you are fundamentally misunderstanding and misrepresenting several concepts simultaneously, which is why your posts are not making any sense.

http://chrisjones.id.au/MoonIllusion/

When the moon and the sun are both visible in the sky, but not close together, the sunlight often appears to illuminate the moon from a high angle, even when the sun is closer to the horizon than the moon.

As seen in an orthogonal projection, the lunar terminator (the boundary of the illuminated hemisphere of the moon) appears from Earth as a half-ellipse. The major axis of the ellipse is perpendicular to the sun's direction from the moon: the sun lies on an extension of the minor axis.



The illusion occurs when the moon and sun are separated by a wide angle, so that they are perceived relative to the horizon, as if in a panorama. A panoramic photograph is a cylindrical projection. In this projection, most straight lines project as sinusoidal curves. The moon-sun line is curved, unless the moon and sun are on the horizon or directly above one another.

This curve can be seen in the figure below, which shows a cylindrical projection of the sky covering 60° of altitude and 180° of azimuth. Below it is an isometric drawing showing how the moon and the sun project on to the cylinder from the viewpoint.



The above figure animates to show the radius of the cylinder increasing until it becomes a plane. The projection then becomes a rectilinear one, in which all straight lines remain straight. As the cylinders are tangent to the plane at the moon's position, the angle of the terminator remains constant throughout the animation.

The rectilinear projection is like a wide-angle photograph. Angular displacements are progressively magnified away from the optical centre, as revealed by the grid lines. The angle of the terminator is thus slightly different than it would appear if looking directly up at the moon.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2021, 10:45:22 PM by scomato »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #56 on: February 21, 2021, 12:30:08 AM »
More on the fallacious ball experiment.

Foreground and background balls misaligned:



Wow, by moving the camera around the ball in the foreground I can make the foreground ball match a similar orientation to the ball in the background. Moon Illusion ProoooF!!


« Last Edit: February 21, 2021, 12:33:33 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #57 on: February 21, 2021, 01:10:34 AM »
No Tom, you and the Wiki have completely misunderstood these quotes.  The celestial sphere doesn't 'cause' anything because it's not real.

You seem to think when astronomers talk about the celestial sphere that they are talking about an actual, physical sphere up there that holds all the stars, like your dome.  This is wrong and shows your total lack of comprehension on this subject.  The celestial sphere is just shorthand for talking about objects so far away from us that they in effect, can be treated mathematically as being a sphere.  But no astronomer thinks there is an actual sphere, and even the shorthand is discarded when measuring parallax or other precise observations.

Professor Myers clearly attributes the Moon Tilt to the curving of straight lines on the Celestial Sphere. It sounds like you aren't too versed in RE astronomy if you can't understand it.

Quote
It's really that simple, you just can't seem to understand when extra details are added, as your confusion over this paper and not knowing what a celestial sphere is.


You keep spamming this image, like you think it means something. It doesn't. The top version is curved because it was taken with a distorted lens, as you stated. We do not see the world with significant distortion. This effect in our vision you propose is untestestable, so your effect has no bearing.

I asked you how we could detect your distortion in our visual field and you just posted your image of this scene with the distorted lens again.  ::)

Here is a better diagram and explanation of the Moon Tilt Illusion. Tom, you are fundamentally misunderstanding and misrepresenting several concepts simultaneously, which is why your posts are not making any sense.

http://chrisjones.id.au/MoonIllusion/

When the moon and the sun are both visible in the sky, but not close together, the sunlight often appears to illuminate the moon from a high angle, even when the sun is closer to the horizon than the moon.

As seen in an orthogonal projection, the lunar terminator (the boundary of the illuminated hemisphere of the moon) appears from Earth as a half-ellipse. The major axis of the ellipse is perpendicular to the sun's direction from the moon: the sun lies on an extension of the minor axis.



The illusion occurs when the moon and sun are separated by a wide angle, so that they are perceived relative to the horizon, as if in a panorama. A panoramic photograph is a cylindrical projection. In this projection, most straight lines project as sinusoidal curves. The moon-sun line is curved, unless the moon and sun are on the horizon or directly above one another.

This curve can be seen in the figure below, which shows a cylindrical projection of the sky covering 60° of altitude and 180° of azimuth. Below it is an isometric drawing showing how the moon and the sun project on to the cylinder from the viewpoint.



The above figure animates to show the radius of the cylinder increasing until it becomes a plane. The projection then becomes a rectilinear one, in which all straight lines remain straight. As the cylinders are tangent to the plane at the moon's position, the angle of the terminator remains constant throughout the animation.

The rectilinear projection is like a wide-angle photograph. Angular displacements are progressively magnified away from the optical centre, as revealed by the grid lines. The angle of the terminator is thus slightly different than it would appear if looking directly up at the moon.

This article by Christopher Jones is just unintelligible gobbledygook and doesn't explain why it occurs.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2021, 01:42:47 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #58 on: February 21, 2021, 01:13:49 AM »
No. The Wiki does go over the explanations in that document. I would suggest you read all of it. Professor Myers says that the Moon Tilt Illusion is caused by lines turning into curves on the "celestial sphere":

https://wiki.tfes.org/Moon_Tilt_Illusion#Celestial_Sphere

'In the paper The Moon Tilt Illusion (Archive) by Adrea and Alan Myers, the following is stated:

  “ The moon tilt illusion is not described in astronomy textbooks because astronomers know that straight lines in object space become great circles on the celestial sphere. Minnaert [5] gives only a passing reference: “...the line connecting the horns of the moon, between its first quarter and full moon, for instance, does not appear to be at all perpendicular to the direction from sun to moon; we apparently think of this direction as being a curved line. Fix this direction by stretching a piece of string taut in front of your eye; however unlikely it may have seemed to you at first you will now perceive that the condition of perpendicularity is satisfied”. An article by Sch¨olkopf [8] documents the illusion in an experiment involving 14 subjects by having them indicate their expectation of how the moon’s illumination should be oriented with respect to the position of the (visible) sun. He reports that an average discrepancy of 12◦ is perceived by the subjects between the observable versus expected orientation of the moon’s bright limb. Schott’s website entitled “ ‘Falsche’ Mondneigung” (‘False’ Moontilt) [9] is devoted to the moon tilt illusion, and features illustrations and useful links. Schott correctly proposes to quantify the effect by comparing the observed tilt angle with the angle from horizontal of the line connecting the moon and sun, but an error in geometry leads to an incorrect expression for the expected tilt. A paper by Glaeser and Schott [2], approaching the phenomenon via the principles of photography, show that the magnitude of the illusion could in theory be measured through comparison of a close-up shot of the moon with a photograph containing both sun and moon, with the camera directed in a specified direction between them (although no equations are given). However, as they point out, in practice it is not feasible since even a wide-angle lens cannot capture both sun and moon in a photo with azimuth differences for which the illusion can be most clearly observed (between 90◦ and 180◦). Berry[1] proposed using a star chart, which is a zenith-center stereoscopic projection of the celestial sphere onto a flat surface, to define the moon tilt illusion as the angle between the projected great circle and a straight moon-sun line drawn on the same chart “mimicking how we might see the sky when lying on our back looking up”. Clearly, there exists a lack of consensus in the literature about the explanation of the moon tilt illusion and disagreement about the best way to describe it.

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Astronomers rely upon the celestial sphere model for maps of the sky because locations of stars and constellations depend only on their right ascension and declination. For the topocentric model used for the sun and the moon, location is specified by azimuth and altitude. All objects in the sky are assumed to be located at the same distance from the observer, as if pasted upon the surface of an imaginery sphere surrounding the observer. Astronomers, for whom the celestial sphere model is a basic tool for mapping the stars, are not surprised by the apparently curved path of light from the sun to the moon because they know that straight lines in 3-D object space are transformed to great-circle arcs on the imaginary celestial sphere. ”

We are told that straight lines become curved when looking into the sky because of the "celestial sphere" which exists above our heads.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Moon_Tilt_Illusion#Celestial_Sphere_2

'Previously, we had read that Professor Myers told us about the curving of light on the celestial sphere as cause of the Moon Tilt Illusion. He states:

  “ Astronomers, for whom the celestial sphere model is a basic tool for mapping the stars, are not surprised by the apparently curved path of light from the sun to the moon because they know that straight lines in 3-D object space are transformed to great-circle arcs on the imaginary celestial sphere. [2] ”

  “ The scientific explanation is based on the projection of a straight line onto the surface of a sphere [3] ”

  “ The moon tilt illusion is not described in astronomy textbooks because astronomers know that straight lines in object space become great circles on the celestial sphere. [4] ”'

Like I said, the paper you heavily cite in the wiki directly refutes your claims. They even mathematically prove you wrong. Why you keep going back to a paper that contradicts you, I don't know.

"The conclusion is that the slope of a vector which is straight in 3-D object space changes continuously with the viewing angle of the camera (or the human eye) as it is moved along the line. For a particular viewing angle, the slope is constant and the line is straight. For the series of viewing angles necessary to scan the line from beginning to end, the slope varies. Although the above examples treat straight lines that are parallel to the ground, the observed slope of a straight line in 3-D space of any orientation with respect to the horizontal will change with viewing (or camera) perspective."


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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #59 on: February 21, 2021, 01:26:31 AM »
The Wiki goes over that one too. He has multiple explanations in there. That's the perspective explanation.

From the document:



On the Wiki:

https://wiki.tfes.org/Moon_Tilt_Illusion#Perspective_Explanation

Quote
Perspective Explanation

An explanation of the Moon Tilt Illusion for the Round Earth Theory is given in the form of a perspective effect. It is possible to arrange yourself under an object so that it points upwards above your head. It is claimed that this is occurring with the Moon.



Scene zoomed out:



Two Object Problem

One issue with this explanation of 'perspective' is that if the observer is ever in a position to see both the Moon and Sun simultaneously, the illuminated portion Moon should point at the Sun. When moving the camera around the above scene, whenever the green cone and yellow ball are in the same field, the cone will always point at the ball along that straight line.



However, in contrast to this experimental determination of perspective, we find that with the Moon Tilt Illusion it is possible for an observer to see both the Moon and Sun simultaneously, misaligned to each other.

At http://www.astropix.com/html/l_story/moonill.html (Archive) professional astrophotographer Jerry Lodriguss (bio) reports:



From the author:

  “ Now, I have always under the impression that if you took the Moon's phase illumination angle it would draw a line straight back to the sun. But this sure wasn't what I thought I saw this day.

Obviously, it's an illusion that has something to do with a three-dimensional space being projected onto a two-dimensional plane in my eyeballs. Some people have tried to explain it as involving great circles, just as airplanes fly great circle routes to places on the opposite side of the globe. However they only do this because they can't fly a straight line through the Earth.

What I can't seem to get past is that the Sun and the Moon were in the same field together and I could view them both at the same time and that the light from the Sun is going in a straight line from the Sun to the Moon. It is not following a great circle. ”

The perspective explanation doesn't work because sometimes it's possible to see the Sun and Moon in the same field, misaligned to each other.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2021, 01:32:44 AM by Tom Bishop »