Offline jimster

  • *
  • Posts: 132
    • View Profile
Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2021, 11:12:07 PM »
Geometry, geo meaning earth and metry meaning measure. Invented to figure out where property lines were.

Each flat earth "model" solves one FE problem, but they contradict, so FE says, "just a model, still working on it" and does not have to invalidate FE. Same problem with nailing down the details. You have to consider only one thing at a time, explain it witha vague "truthy" FExplanation, and not dig any deeper.

Some guy on here is offering Amazon gift cards if some FE will stay with him through consistency checks and detail specification. I have thought of offering cash for someone who will learn RE geometry and explain day/night, seasons, 24 hour days at the poles, eclipses, north star latitude sextant etc.

Will some FE succeed in satisfying him while maintaining FE belief? RE will say he didn't, FE will say he did. Just like lib/conserv, Catholic/Protestant, Q/reality, etc.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2021, 04:55:45 AM by jimster »

Offline SteelyBob

  • *
  • Posts: 339
    • View Profile
Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2021, 06:17:13 AM »
So, the question of distance is of the utmost importance for FEs themselves, in order to unify their models.

Which is probably why you never, ever see it being discussed among the FE community. You'd have thought there would be intense interest in measuring distances between places to see if there's a discrepancy between our maps and reality. Notice no reply at all to my 'SteelyBob ratio' post - no agreement or disagreement, no challenge, evidence or rebuttal. Just no reply at all.

Of course, there isn't a discrepancy, so to measure and investigate would blow the lid off the whole thing.

Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2021, 02:36:18 PM »
So, the question of distance is of the utmost importance for FEs themselves, in order to unify their models.

Which is probably why you never, ever see it being discussed among the FE community. You'd have thought there would be intense interest in measuring distances between places to see if there's a discrepancy between our maps and reality. Notice no reply at all to my 'SteelyBob ratio' post - no agreement or disagreement, no challenge, evidence or rebuttal. Just no reply at all.

Of course, there isn't a discrepancy, so to measure and investigate would blow the lid off the whole thing.

Don't forget direction. According to RET, the distance from Sydney to Cape Town is 11,000 km., AND the straight-line between them runs north of Antarctica, whereas FET would not only have the distance off by a factor of 2 or 3, but the straight line would run near India. Again - never discussed.

Offline scomato

  • *
  • Posts: 64
    • View Profile
Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2021, 03:37:03 PM »
Strikes me that FE is more political/tribal than scientific. The only certain claim all FEs will support is "not FE". They disagree with each other or don't know, nothing is certain, except one thing, "not RE". They respect and demand consideration for multiple FE models cheerfully, except for RE. They support each other while making contradictory cla9ims. I don't think this is about scientific exploration of the shape of the earth, it seems to me to be a pointless "us vs them" conflict.

This forum is based upon the Bedford's canal experiment and its supposed flatness (for REs it's due to refraction). In general, FEs look at the sea and somehow discard the idea that the horizon ends abruptly because there's a frontal curvature, in favour of an undefined, as you say, "not-roundness". Given these cognitive premises, their problem is no more proving flatness, but if you'd explore the wiki you'd see that they are trying to unify many possible FE models. These models are very different, but there could be a disambiguation if pairwise distances among cities was taken into account, as you say. So, the question of distance is of the utmost importance for FEs themselves, in order to unify their models.

My theory of Flat Earth(ers) is that it is a psychological reactance. It is not a structured belief system, or a science, or a cult or anything like that. It's an emergent response to a society that ridicules flat earth theories because they are incompatible with nearly all fields of modern science. We live in a society where we aggressively attack people who are scientifically wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactance_(psychology)

"Reactance can occur when someone is heavily pressured to accept a certain view or attitude. Reactance can cause the person to adopt or strengthen a view or attitude that is contrary to what was intended, and also increases resistance to persuasion."

This is essentially what Flat Earthers experience every day. Our society most definitely places great pressure on Flat Earthers to change their views. Where 'Round Earth' normies think they are doing FErs a favour by rescuing them from a deep pit of ignorance, many will instead interpret this as suppression of their right to believe in something, and therefore a threat to their perceived freedom, creating a backfire effect that strengthens their views and makes it impossible to persuade them otherwise.

Offline fisherman

  • *
  • Posts: 198
    • View Profile
Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2021, 05:40:31 PM »

Quote
This is essentially what Flat Earthers experience every day. Our society most definitely places great pressure on Flat Earthers to change their views. Where 'Round Earth' normies think they are doing FErs a favour by rescuing them from a deep pit of ignorance, many will instead interpret this as suppression of their right to believe in something, and therefore a threat to their perceived freedom, creating a backfire effect that strengthens their views and makes it impossible to persuade them otherwise.

In other words, science isn't the boss of a flat earther.

Offline jimster

  • *
  • Posts: 132
    • View Profile
Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2021, 06:15:40 PM »
In most human groups and individuals, there is a combination of reasons, and they vary. It is exciting to be a "brave new warrior of truth", or throw a rock at uppity people who think they are so smart. In some cases, just to have some friends and be somebody.

Whatever the reason, I am amazed at how obvious the motivated reasoning is and that it is impossible to get them to see themselves doing it. It does not bode well for the human race that people decide something and will grossly dismiss contrary evidence and conjure up impossible things to explain, all while a perfectly good explanation exists, confirmed daily in thousands of ways. To the point of ridiculous, unless you have a tribe to agree, then it's us against them, and logic, consistency, and rational thought are all impediments to winning.

The faith based system of thinking (decide first, then see only supporting evidence) is the same for FE, Q, stopthesteal, Trump, religion, etc) is a dangerous thing with modern tech. Internet and atomic bomb should not be accessible to tribal faith based people. Faith based concrete reasoning people want to win, abstract thinkers want to cooperate.

In any case, you can't win an argument with a faith based person. They have already decided. The rest is just bla bla bla. The sport of it for me is to force them into a ridiculous position, but they see it coming and just stop replying, change the subject, etc. The anger comes when you expect them to be reasonable and they aren't.


Offline scomato

  • *
  • Posts: 64
    • View Profile
Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2021, 06:31:54 PM »
In most human groups and individuals, there is a combination of reasons, and they vary. It is exciting to be a "brave new warrior of truth", or throw a rock at uppity people who think they are so smart. In some cases, just to have some friends and be somebody.

Whatever the reason, I am amazed at how obvious the motivated reasoning is and that it is impossible to get them to see themselves doing it. It does not bode well for the human race that people decide something and will grossly dismiss contrary evidence and conjure up impossible things to explain, all while a perfectly good explanation exists, confirmed daily in thousands of ways. To the point of ridiculous, unless you have a tribe to agree, then it's us against them, and logic, consistency, and rational thought are all impediments to winning.

The faith based system of thinking (decide first, then see only supporting evidence) is the same for FE, Q, stopthesteal, Trump, religion, etc) is a dangerous thing with modern tech. Internet and atomic bomb should not be accessible to tribal faith based people. Faith based concrete reasoning people want to win, abstract thinkers want to cooperate.

In any case, you can't win an argument with a faith based person. They have already decided. The rest is just bla bla bla. The sport of it for me is to force them into a ridiculous position, but they see it coming and just stop replying, change the subject, etc. The anger comes when you expect them to be reasonable and they aren't.

It is exactly the same as trying to convince an anti-vaxxer that they are wrong. Or a Christian or Muslim or Jew that they are wrong. The more you try to convince them that their world view is incorrect it will be interpreted as an attack on their freedom of belief. This causes a psychological reactance / backfire effect where they believe in the thing more strongly, as it reinforces their perception of freedom of belief that they feel has become restricted. It is the same psychological effect that makes reverse psychology work, and why teenagers go out of their way to do the things they perceive as prohibited.

Any non-reactant Flat Earthers would not be Flat Earthers for very long given that it is so easily disproven, so there are only highly reactant Flat Earthers.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2021, 06:33:41 PM by scomato »

*

Offline RonJ

  • *
  • Posts: 1419
  • ACTA NON VERBA
    • View Profile
Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2021, 07:36:07 PM »
You won't be able to convince someone that their belief system is wrong when there's nothing of significance at stake.  When you are sitting in your mother's basement playing on a computer all day, who cares what the actual shape of the world happens to be?  When it's time for you to put your money where your mouth is, then it becomes important. You could have a strong belief in your individual freedom of thought and feel you can believe in the flat earth, nothing wrong with that.  It does become significant when those beliefs have to be applied to actions that need to take place in the real world.  When your life and/or safety depends upon your beliefs would you change your mind? 


What if you had the belief that you had a flat gallbladder.  You went to the doctor and said I have some pain.  After a checkup your doctor says that his tests indicates that you have a bunch of gall stones.  You say 'that's impossible', I believe in a flat gallbladder and you can't have round stones in a flat gallbladder.  It's getting kind of ridiculous isn't it?  Someone with a particular belief that has never actually seen a gallbladder, even his own, is talking to someone who has and it's your life/safety on the line.  What about your belief system now?  There are times when you should stand up for your beliefs and there are times when you shouldn't. 


Would you stand up for your flat earth beliefs and would you depend upon what you say is an accurate flat earth map if you were about to take a journey across the Pacific Ocean in a boat?  That would be akin to lying to your doctor.  I know for sure that I would depend upon maps based upon a spherical earth, and GPS, also based upon a spherical earth, anywhere where my life & safety depended upon it.  This I know because I have done it at least a thousand times. 
« Last Edit: May 02, 2021, 01:22:00 AM by RonJ »
You can lead a flat earther to the curve but you can't make him think!