141

Science & Alternative Science / Re: FE and ICBMs

« on: May 25, 2021, 12:23:15 AM »

When icbms are tested, they are tracked by multiple radar sites. Each site knows the bearing and distance to the rocket. The coverage overlaps. Matching up the data from the overlapping parts of the data will locate the stations in 3 space in relation to one another. In fact, two radar stations a few hundred miles apart tracking the same object forms a triangle with two known angles and two known side lengths, so the distance between the radars can be calculated.

Yet another way to know distances, and one that would be critical to missile testing.

Tom Bishop, did you decide the earth is flat and on every challenge make up an explanation, or did you carefully consider all the evidence and decide? Do you understand RET? I think RET explains day/night, seasons 24 hour days at the poles, tides, the apparent motion of stars and planets, gyrocompass, sextant, eclipse, etc.

Does it explain all those things, even if the earth is flat, does RE geometry "work"? Would a person on the surface of a 8000 mi diameter sphere spinning 1 rpm, 93 M mi away from a really bright light see the sun come over the horizon, take 12 hrs to cross the sky, and then appear to sink beneath the opposite horizon only to rise again 12 hrs later? If tilted slightly, would there be areas near the poles that at some times of the year got 24 hour sun and other times 24 hour night, the border of which would be the exact angle of the tilt?

Does RET "work"?

142

Flat Earth Theory / Re: FE and artillery

« on: May 24, 2021, 10:16:13 PM »

He dry-labbed the correction factor instead of calculating it, but if the earth was flat, the gun would have been on target without the correction.

He also says the 16" guns did have the curvature calculation built in to the computer (actually a system of gears and cams, a mechanical analog computer.

The accuracy of artillery is well known, Aberdeen Proving Grounds had been doing this since forever, and testing weapons is a world-wide popular thing to do. Every major country tests artillery.

Coriolis was discussed in my web search someone said it was in the software, someone else said it was a tiny error, but I believe it causes a bearing error, and earth curve causes range error.

143

Science & Alternative Science / Re: FE and ICBMs

« on: May 24, 2021, 10:09:53 PM »

Something I agree with Tom Bishop!

Werner Von Braun was morally reprehensible. We could talk about ethics and history, but it happened, and all I was doing was saying what happened.

The OP question was when and what is the discrepancy between what the govt says we have in missiles and what we actually have. When did they find out FE and the conspiracy begin? Does the aiming process use FE, has it been tested, or is it all a lie that multiple countries engage in because they want us to think they can nuke anyone?

Many engineers participating in the program would have realized that gravity was not as their calculations expect and the earth is flat, and the range would be way different. They did test shots from Vandenberg to south Pacific. I worked in the dp center at the Air Force Flight Test Center, believe me, they know every little detail, telemetry, radar, inertial guidance and gps. Must be quite a few engineers in the space program that know.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_Test_Project

They would trace the shot from start to end and study it in great detail. Using radar, gps, inertial guidance telemetry (all checked to verify that they match), A plot in 3 space, displayed in a graphics program.

The FExplanation possibilities are:

1. The entire ICBM program is phony,

2. The engineers are monumentally incompetent.

3. You take a job offer out of college to work on the ICBM program, and day 1 a NASA thug takes you in a room and threatens to kill your family if you reveal FE, you leave this meeting and act the same, carrying on as normal, never getting drunk and telling someone, never acting odd, going to work in FE and home to RE for years. You help your kids with their astronomy homework and never let on in any way, because you know a NASA thug will kill them.

4. The engineers have been manipulated by false data from the conspiracy. There is a web of people collecting and processing this data, and multiple teams doing that in other countries. The data has to correlate, there is a lot of it, the process is complicated, multiple copies of data processed different ways. The complexity and effort level to do this is unimaginable.

Anyone got an explanation that is plausible to a person who doesn't care about FE? Anything without giant insanely complicated yet super secret conspiracy? Maybe everything appears as RE says, but advanced math and science reveals that light and radio waves bend exactly as they must to make a flat earth look round? Any proofs, experiments, equations for those forces?

144

Flat Earth Theory / Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances

« on: May 23, 2021, 10:28:42 PM »

In 2001, my company was a sponsor of the Whitbread race (then Volvo, now just the Ocean Race). We provided a computer for Quokka Sports to run a game where people could have their own virtual boat to race against the real boats and we provided the internet infrastructure for each port they stopped in. They sailed from Capetown to Melbourne on one leg, yacht races like the southern ocean because the winds are hihest there, so it is basically a race around Antarctica.

Several people in my department went to each port before they got there to set up, operate, when they left, tear down and ship to next port. They sent me pics at the dock and in the boats.

Sailboats have a hull speed, they can only go so fast (I tried to get a sailboat to go faster than hull speed, it dug the nose in and turned, indeed impossible). The computer game showed their location continuously. The sailboat speed, published distance, and time the trip took all matched perfectly. On any FE map I have seen, the distance is thousands of miles longer and the sailboats would have to go 90 mph to make it.

I conclude that RE distance is accurate, FE is impossible. FEs, where is my mistake?

145

Science & Alternative Science / FE and ICBMs

« on: May 23, 2021, 10:09:09 PM »

Do ICBMs exist? Who aims them? Do they know the distance to the target? What map do they use? FE or RE$, gonna hit in a very different place.

V-2s in WW2 certainly existed, works fine on FE, not precision guided and short range, so earth curve doesn't matter. Starting in 1946, Werner Von Braun at White Sands and the USSR started improving the V-2, gradually improving the range and guidance until precise over thousands of miles. Tested and pr'd, from Vandenburg to south Pacific test range. I see no reason why ICBMs would not work on FE, but the aiming equation would be very different.

I found a diagram of ICBM trajectory that I can't manage to link to, but if you extend the line from the launch site straight as in FE, the range error has got to be hundreds, maybe thousands of miles.

Do ICBMs exist?
Have they been tested for accuracy?
Does the equation use FE or RE math?

The details of this story on RE are well known. Can someone fill in the FE details? Programmers secretly know FE, but are under threat to keep it secret? ICBMs do not have accuracy? What's up?

Perhaps USSR, UK, USA, China, etc all know FE, all agreed to keep it secret, and all want to have ICBM credibility when no such thing exists?

146

Flat Earth Theory / FE and artillery

« on: May 23, 2021, 09:43:54 PM »

I was watching a battleship New Jersey youtube video that had a Viet Nam war vet talking about using the 5" inch secondary fire control computer.



The 16" guns fire control computer had earth curvature correction (explained in video below) The secondary fire control computer did not have earth curvature correction, range was too short. They came up with a rocket assisted round with 50% greater range. They had to correct for earth curvature manually.

Then I searched to find out more about how common is curvature correction for artillery, and I found that the US Army acknowledges flat earth!

https://www.facebook.com/129815299935/posts/flat-earth-changes-artillery-mathematicsby-monica-k-guthriefort-sill-okla-the-re/10156326388059936/

Sorry, had to do it, but seriously ... here is a good explanation of why all countries with artillery with more than 10 miles know whether the earth is curved.

147

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Help me understand how light rays travel

« on: May 23, 2021, 05:27:20 PM »

Still no answer on the original post. The light rays from the ocean around the boat reach my eyes, the rays from the top of the mountain reach my eyes. In my field of vision, Oxnard is between the two. Why did the rays from Oxnard not reach my eyes?

We returned at night, and there was one light that first appeared. More lights appeard under the first, and when we got close, the entire shore was lit up. The bright lights of the marine were not compressed, they were missing. Why did I not see the very bright lights of the marina and hotels all the way back? Why did I see one light, then more, and finally the lit up shoreline?

148

Flat Earth Theory / Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances

« on: May 23, 2021, 05:21:31 PM »

So the answer to my OP from FE seems to be no one knows distances. Tom Bishop, is that your final answer?

Charles Lindbergh had to know how much gas he needed. And he got there. He knew how far it was and where it was. When an airliner flies over the Atlantic, gps is constantly on, reporting position to the pilot and air traffic controllers.

Are people all over the world using gps? Are there massive numbers of complaints that it doesn't work? Do airplanes and ships use gps as they travel? Do you have any reason to believe that gps will not show you your location accurately on a systematic consistent basis? How could it show wrong and people not notice?

If gps is accurate everywhere, or even in most places, how can you not know the distance? A person in New York's gps says he is in New York, a person in Paris says they are in Paris, both can confirm gps is correct. How can it know accurately where both people are without being able to know the distance?

If you are going to allege that gps is conspiratorially distorted, how can it identify people everywhere as being where they know they are and change gradually from one place to another as you travel? And if it is monkeyed with somehow, you can find that out. You can buy a usb gps receiver and download multiple different open source gps programs from github. You can look at the algorithms and the live data from satellites. You can find the monkey business.

US Geodetic survey data base of geodetic markers and topo maps. Astral navigation. gps. Globe map. Tom Bishop, show us how they don't match up, and then explain why a world based on those things works and why no one notices the discrepancies?.

Not looking for a random out of context quote from an unknown scientist. Looking for the details of why this system seems to work for everyone and yet it is wrong.

149

Flat Earth Theory / Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances

« on: May 10, 2021, 07:09:06 PM »

Let's agree for the moment that the earth is flat, no argument.

Can we all agree that no one knows how to make a FE map with accurate distance, direction, and constant scale? FE and RE agree on this, or show me the map.

Can we agree that a globe does have accurate distance, direction, and scale? If not, please advise on what does not match. Not saying the earth is round, just saying a theoretical RE model matches observations. I would love to hear how the RE model does not explain consistently.

I took a flight from Sydney Australia to LA. The time was within minutes of the time published in the schedule, published speed of the airliner multiplied by the time of the trip equaled the distance reported by google and the airline schedule. I took a string and measured the distance on a real globe and it matched the distance published in the schedule.

I have never seen a FE map where the distance between Sydney and LA was less than the range of any airliner. I do admit that this is extrapolated, as I have never seen a FE map with a scale.

Has anyone ever seen a FE map with a scale? 

150

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Help me understand how light rays travel

« on: May 10, 2021, 06:27:15 PM »

I was in a 16 foot open boat. Any wave that would block my vision would have sunk the boat. It's the Pacific ocean, pacific, from the latin pacifus, meaning peaceful. No wave blocked my vision. Southern CA, clear cloudless, no haze.

Also in the EA section of the wiki it says that scientists don't think light bends because they just never consider the possibility. This puzzles me, as I was taught reflection, refraction, and Einsteinian gravity bending, It seems they are open to the idea of bending. They even have experiments and equations, and consistency with other ways to measure.

It also talks about how a car can't continue straight because without constant corrections. Actually, on a flat surface with no crown on the road, my cars track straight. I suggest the author of the the wiki should get his car aligned, perhaps new tires. But it doesn't matter, because science does have the aforementioned "bumps in the road". They are known, measured, confirmed, and considered in the science and navigation.

WTF, there is a thin line between extending the model and proof by contradiction. That's why it's always "no one knows" and "no equations yet", etc. FE is allergic to details and consistency. It is a one layer system. RE poses question, FE has glib flawed answer, then pursuing it further goes nowhere. Change topic, get angry, say it has already been answered, that question is not allowed, or just don't respond. FE would do well in politics with these skills.

My original question still has not been answered and can be posed re the picture of sailboat and skyline posted above. I can see the water for miles, and the tops of the mountain/buildings. If I draw a side view diagram, the rays come up from the water and down from the building/mountain tops meet at my eye. What happened to the light rays between? No haze, no big waves.

151

Flat Earth Theory / Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances

« on: April 30, 2021, 06:15:40 PM »

In most human groups and individuals, there is a combination of reasons, and they vary. It is exciting to be a "brave new warrior of truth", or throw a rock at uppity people who think they are so smart. In some cases, just to have some friends and be somebody.

Whatever the reason, I am amazed at how obvious the motivated reasoning is and that it is impossible to get them to see themselves doing it. It does not bode well for the human race that people decide something and will grossly dismiss contrary evidence and conjure up impossible things to explain, all while a perfectly good explanation exists, confirmed daily in thousands of ways. To the point of ridiculous, unless you have a tribe to agree, then it's us against them, and logic, consistency, and rational thought are all impediments to winning.

The faith based system of thinking (decide first, then see only supporting evidence) is the same for FE, Q, stopthesteal, Trump, religion, etc) is a dangerous thing with modern tech. Internet and atomic bomb should not be accessible to tribal faith based people. Faith based concrete reasoning people want to win, abstract thinkers want to cooperate.

In any case, you can't win an argument with a faith based person. They have already decided. The rest is just bla bla bla. The sport of it for me is to force them into a ridiculous position, but they see it coming and just stop replying, change the subject, etc. The anger comes when you expect them to be reasonable and they aren't.

152

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Help me understand how light rays travel

« on: April 29, 2021, 04:43:57 AM »

None of the above explains this, I will try to express the issue again.

   /\
  /  \
 /    \                                                     _____
/      \______________________________\     /


I saw the top of the mountain and I saw the ocean between the boat and the shore. Where did the light rays from the shoreline (between them) go? Presumably, they follow parallel paths and remain between the mountain top rays and the ocean rays.

How could light rays from above them and below them reach me, but not the rays from the shore? It ain't distance, the mountain is behind the shore. Sure looked like the mountain was descending below the water.

This is the exact way it would appear with RE, but we are to prefer the explanation that requires unknown forces that you can't explain or demonstrate?

Tom Bishop, don't go away, that means you have no answer and the earth is round. You have to explain how the light rays disappear. Unknown forces? Conspiracy? Where are those light rays?

FE can't explain sharp cutoffs, everything in FE is gradual. No explanation for relatively quick transition of day to night, or the sharp cutoff of the sun as it rises and sets. FE has to do it with bending and distance, and those things are gradual. Explaining the sharp cutoffs requires light not to just bend, but to just disappear.

153

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Predicting satellite positions with a flat earth model

« on: April 28, 2021, 11:33:20 PM »

More interesting, maybe, is the Directv web site giving directions (altitude and azimuth) to point the antennas. The dishes are very directional, giving confirmation that they are pointing at the satellite. The satellites are geosynchronous, meaning they are stationary at a spot over the equator. If you take the directions given for Corpus Christi, Kansas City, and Grand Forks, the vertical component does not match when plotted on FE. On RE, the lines cross at the same point.

There are ham radio guys who regularly talk by bouncing off a satellite, in fact there have been multiple ham satellites launched. Youtube has many videos of hams doing this.

Ham radio operators also aim their antennas to talk with someone far away. You have to know accurately the shape of the earth to know this. Before the internet, hams used to pay money for a flay map with accurate directions everywhere (but not distances, and only from their location) to make it easy to see where to point their antenna.

I would like to see a FE go to a ham radio club meeting and tell them FE.

Youtube has videos of people listening (with very directional antennas) to satellites on home made radio rigs. You can download a program to show the locations of satellites, you can buy (fairly cheap) a usb receiver, make your own antenna, and download gps software from github. You can read the program to see what it really does and examine data from satellites.

If I knew the earth was flat, I would prove it multiple ways very quickly and spread the word. There is a simple explanation for why FE can't do that.

154

Flat Earth Theory / Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances

« on: April 28, 2021, 11:12:07 PM »

Geometry, geo meaning earth and metry meaning measure. Invented to figure out where property lines were.

Each flat earth "model" solves one FE problem, but they contradict, so FE says, "just a model, still working on it" and does not have to invalidate FE. Same problem with nailing down the details. You have to consider only one thing at a time, explain it witha vague "truthy" FExplanation, and not dig any deeper.

Some guy on here is offering Amazon gift cards if some FE will stay with him through consistency checks and detail specification. I have thought of offering cash for someone who will learn RE geometry and explain day/night, seasons, 24 hour days at the poles, eclipses, north star latitude sextant etc.

Will some FE succeed in satisfying him while maintaining FE belief? RE will say he didn't, FE will say he did. Just like lib/conserv, Catholic/Protestant, Q/reality, etc.

155

Suggestions & Concerns / How to insert image

« on: April 28, 2021, 09:30:38 PM »

I tried to insert image by copy and paste (nothing), by clicking insert image () and by click and drag. Apologies for being old and dense, probably missing the obvious.

Thanks in advance.

156

Flat Earth Theory / Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances

« on: April 28, 2021, 05:35:05 PM »

Tom Bishop often explains some FE issue with a brief glib, yet at least remotely plausible FExplanation - such as anomolous winds aloft speeding planes in both directions. Then some RE shoots big holes in his explanation. In typical FE fashion, no further discussion, if you press them, they say "we already answered that." And they literally did, just not in a complete, consistent, detailed way, no proof (except "it has to be because the earth is flat", or in any way satisfying answer. FE is a one layer system. The FE never is required to continue the debate beyond his vaguely plausible answer. You see the same thing with politicians, not so much with scientists.

Strikes me that FE is more political/tribal than scientific. The only certain claim all FEs will support is "not FE". They disagree with each other or don't know, nothing is certain, except one thing, "not RE". They respect and demand consideration for multiple FE models cheerfully, except for RE. They support each other while making contradictory cla9ims. I don't think this is about scientific exploration of the shape of the earth, it seems to me to be a pointless "us vs them" conflict.

Claiming it is scientific is what makes REs that come here to patiently explain become angry.

When all your debates end in you lending the debate, changing the subject, repeating the same answer and insisting it be accepted, you are not winning the debate.

157

Flat Earth Theory / Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances

« on: April 28, 2021, 12:39:01 AM »

I find it impressive that RE distances are known through: astral navigation, time/speed/distance with a car, with a plane, with a boat, gps, geodetic survey, anyone think of some more ways? I have checked, they match perfectly. What my phone says, google maps, shooting the north star with an inclinometer, flawless match. Boats and planes seem to get where they want to go and have a pretty good idea of how long it will take.

Tom Bishop would probably never get on a boat, they have no idea where they are or where they are going, and he supports a bi-polar map, so no ice wall for Tom, he could sail off the edge.

Tom Bishop going on a car journey: his passenger says "when will we get there?" Tom says, "No one can ever know."

Really Tom, do you ever drive someplace and use google maps to plan the trip? Did it work? When you got there did your cell phone gps match? Did that match google maps? There is a geodesic marker somewhere near everyone, did that match? Inclinometer shooting north star match latitude per google and other sources?

Do you ever fly on a plane, if so do you get on thinking they have no idea how to navigate? Or do you trust that the conspiracy (pilot? nasa? avionics manufacturer? FAA?) will send you to your destination by secret clever gadgets fooling the operators yet successful arrival?

If only some FE could figure out the real distances, they would have something to say other than "RE not true", "no one knows", "unknown forces" and "conspiracy!". But I think we know why they can't.

158

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Where is the sun in daytime?

« on: February 27, 2021, 09:50:07 PM »

It is clear from all FE maps that the sun is not where it appears to be for most people. I gave an example. At every place on earth it appears to be on the surface at sundown and sunrise.

What I am asking for is how one figures out where the sun really is.

If they had a good answer, would they reply? Maybe not, but seems like they would.

I'm going with they wish to avoid the topic because there is no good answer because the earth is round.

159

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Why is there no standard map of the earth?

« on: February 27, 2021, 08:38:51 PM »

https://geodesy.noaa.gov/INFO/geodesy.shtml

The US geodetic survey is about determining position over distances large enough that the curve of the earth matters. There are markers all over the US. There is a database that locates them in 3d space.

If you need to know the precise position of points all over the country, you can use this data base. Or you could come to this web site and look at the maps in the FAQ. You could post questions on the forums about how to find distances between places without GPS or the USGS database (being the product of fools or liars, doncha' know, a few sociopathic liars fooling most of their stupid staff sheep, doncha' know).

Not clear whether FE believes gps and distances on google maps. The only thing I have ever found that all FEs believe is that the earth is not round.

Would love to see the meeting where someone says "We can't use the data from the govt agencies, because the earth is flat and it is all a giant hoax. I am researching FE. So far, no consensus on what the map is or distances, but we are watching Jeranism, DMarble, Globebusters, and many others. Please do not tell anyone outside this room because if the NASA thugs find out we are revealing the truth, they will threaten us and our families with whatever force necessary to shut us up."

160

Flat Earth Investigations / Where is the sun in daytime?

« on: February 27, 2021, 06:32:40 PM »

When it is noon in Greenwich UK, the sun appears directly overhead, a little to the south. At that same time in Kolkata India, the sun is setting and appears to be on the surface to the west. In Chicago USA, it is sunrise and the sun appears to be on the surface to the east.

Plot this out on the map in the FAQ, and from Kolkata, the sun appears to be on the surface in Africa. From Chicago, it appears to be on the surface of South America. From Greenwich, it appears to be high overhead.

How do we figure out where the sun is at noon in Greenwich?