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Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: xasop on April 19, 2015, 09:25:36 AM

Title: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: xasop on April 19, 2015, 09:25:36 AM
Three Australian states (NSW (http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/nsw-government-to-fund-three-trials-of-medical-cannabis-20141221-12bocg.html), Victoria (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-19/victoria-announces-participation-in-medical/6404170) and Queensland (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-19/queensland-to-take-part-in-medicinal-cannabis/6404174)) and one territory (ACT (http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/act-government-to-join-national-medical-cannabis-trial-20141013-115j0m.html)) have agreed to begin trialling cannabis for medicinal use for serious illnesses. If successful (as I have no doubt it will be), this could open the door to more progressive drug laws in the future.

Despite being blocked in Tasmania (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-03/tas-rejection-of-medicinal-cannabis-trial-a-missed-opportunity/5569802) and Western Australia (http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/health-minister-kim-hames-vetoes-medicinal-cannabis-trial-in-wa/story-fnhocxo3-1227310622722), I'm very optimistic about this move. Australia has developed a tendency to fall behind on social policies in recent years, including those regarding drugs, marriage equality, freedom of speech and freedom of religion, and while the situation at the moment is far from dire, it will become so if we don't start keeping pace with progressive governments in Europe and North America. The first step has now been taken, at least on the drug front.

My eventual hope is that this trial, combined with the NSW government's obvious concern for alcohol-related violence in Sydney, will lead them to decriminalising recreational marijuana as an alternative to Sydney's decadent alcohol culture.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Vindictus on April 19, 2015, 10:28:53 AM
It's humorous that a drug as 'soft' as marijuana is still restricted so heavily here, even if it isn't heavily policed. Lots of people don't really care about the issue either. I think in the very least it should be legalized for medical use.

Next up, MDMA..
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Thork on April 19, 2015, 10:40:03 AM
This is a very bipolar approach.

Yours is a nation that is 'progressive'. You were the first nation on earth to enforce plain packaging on cigarettes. Something we will be doing in the very near future. It actually hasn't worked and cigarette sales have gone up in Oz, but you can see the underlying sentiment.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/10718244/Australia-tobacco-sales-increase-despite-plain-packaging.html

Yours is the most anti-smoking nation on earth, bar none. you beat us to banning smoking in a car with children in it, and you just beat us to banning smoking in public places.

So, how can allowing people to smoke weed be progressive? Its backward. It goes against your world leading approach to stopping smoking. Joints usually don't have filters, you have tobacco in the joint and you get all the oils from the weed in your lungs too. How can a nation say "smoking is really bad and we'll be the first to stamp it out" and then go down the route of "we must allow people to smoke weed".

I think you are more likely to be the first nation to make tobacco sales illegal, than you are to sanction the legal smoking of dope.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Vindictus on April 19, 2015, 10:44:41 AM
This is a very bipolar approach.

Yours is a nation that is 'progressive'. You were the first nation on earth to enforce plain packaging on cigarettes. Something we will be doing in the very near future. It actually hasn't worked and cigarette sales have gone up in Oz, but you can see the underlying sentiment.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/10718244/Australia-tobacco-sales-increase-despite-plain-packaging.html

Yours is the most anti-smoking nation on earth, bar none. you beat us to banning smoking in a car with children in it, and you just beat us to banning smoking in public places.

So, how can allowing people to smoke weed by progressive? Its backward. It goes against your world leading approach to stopping smoking. Joints usually don't have filters, you have tobacco in the joint and you get all the oils from the weed in your lungs too. How can a nation say "smoking is really bad and we'll be the first to stamp it out" and then go down the route of "we must allow people to smoke weed".

I think you are more likely to be the first nation to make tobacco sales illegal, than you are to sanction the legal smoking of dope.

Cigarettes are not equivalent in that they actually kill you. Besides that, there's many ways to get marijuana into the body.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Thork on April 19, 2015, 10:53:35 AM
This is a very bipolar approach.

Yours is a nation that is 'progressive'. You were the first nation on earth to enforce plain packaging on cigarettes. Something we will be doing in the very near future. It actually hasn't worked and cigarette sales have gone up in Oz, but you can see the underlying sentiment.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/10718244/Australia-tobacco-sales-increase-despite-plain-packaging.html

Yours is the most anti-smoking nation on earth, bar none. you beat us to banning smoking in a car with children in it, and you just beat us to banning smoking in public places.

So, how can allowing people to smoke weed by progressive? Its backward. It goes against your world leading approach to stopping smoking. Joints usually don't have filters, you have tobacco in the joint and you get all the oils from the weed in your lungs too. How can a nation say "smoking is really bad and we'll be the first to stamp it out" and then go down the route of "we must allow people to smoke weed".

I think you are more likely to be the first nation to make tobacco sales illegal, than you are to sanction the legal smoking of dope.

Cigarettes are not equivalent in that they actually kill you. Besides that, there's many ways to get marijuana into the body.
There are cigarettes in joints. You don't smoke it by itself.

And no. People may make fudge brownies because they are students, but the vast majority of recreational use the world over is smoking marijuana. You just haven't thought it through. You want to be seen as a liberal nation that allows people freedom of choice when it suits you, but are happy to be part of an oppressive regime that will ban things before anyone else on grounds of health or the environment because that suits your ideology. What you are doing is actually just wanting totalitarian control based on your ideology and that the laws should fit your world view, and to hell with the freedom of choice for anyone who doesn't want widespread drug use in their community or chooses to be a smoker.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: xasop on April 19, 2015, 10:59:00 AM
This is a very bipolar approach.

No, introducing a new subject and labelling it "progressive" doesn't make my use of the term "progressive" any less consistent.

Yours is a nation that is 'progressive'. You were the first nation on earth to enforce plain packaging on cigarettes. Something we will be doing in the very near future. It actually hasn't worked and cigarette sales have gone up in Oz, but you can see the underlying sentiment.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/10718244/Australia-tobacco-sales-increase-despite-plain-packaging.html

Packaging regulations are entirely orthogonal to substance legality. There is no conflict here.

Yours is the most anti-smoking nation on earth, bar none. you beat us to banning smoking in a car with children in it, and you just beat us to banning smoking in public places.

Regulations on where and when smoking is acceptable are entirely orthogonal to substance legality. Again, no conflict.

So, how can allowing people to smoke weed by progressive? Its backward. It goes against your world leading approach to stopping smoking. Joints usually don't have filters, you have tobacco in the joint and you get all the oils from the weed in your lungs too. How can a nation say "smoking is really bad and we'll be the first to stamp it out" and then go down the route of "we must allow people to smoke weed".

As you've already pointed out, we haven't stopped smoking. All we've done is introduced regulations that limit the damage smoking can do to society.

Legalisation of marijuana is not an all-or-nothing issue. This seems to be a recurring problem with you; you seem to see someone saying "X should be legal", and somewhere between your retina and your cortex, the message transforms into "I think X is a great thing and we should have no restrictions whatsoever on it".

Cigarettes and alcohol are both legal in Australia, and both have regulations as to where, when and by whom their use is acceptable. All I'm suggesting is that cannabis be given the same treatment.

I think you are more likely to be the first nation to make tobacco sales illegal, than you are to sanction the legal smoking of dope.

If we do that, it will certainly prove my point about us falling behind on the social policy front.

There are cigarettes in joints. You don't smoke it by itself.

Uh. Wow. This is just... I don't even.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Thork on April 19, 2015, 11:14:59 AM
I'll pick out two things.

1) Why don't you or Vindictus accept that there is tobacco in joints? Have either of you ever smoked one? You usually use a roach, not a filter. Its way worse for you than smoking a manufactured cigarette.

2) You already have regulation of marijuana.
Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_in_Australia#Legislation_and_policy
Australia has largely avoided a punitive drug policy, developing instead harm-minimisation strategies and a treatment framework embedded in a law-enforcement regime. Import and export of cannabis is illegal, and federal penalties apply.

It is illegal to sell. You don't get punished for possession for personal use. Your nation is already doing exactly what you advocate. It has harm-minimisation strategies, but isn't punishing users.

Making cannabis legal may sound very hipster and cool, but it goes against the strategies put in place by your nation to protect the public and minimise health issues.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: beardo on April 19, 2015, 11:21:43 AM
Th*rk. Stop.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Foxbox on April 19, 2015, 11:23:56 AM
1) Why don't you or Vindictus accept that there is tobacco in joints? Have either of you ever smoked one? You usually use a roach, not a filter. Its way worse for you than smoking a manufactured cigarette.

Lol no. You can add tobacco to your joint but you most certainly do not have to. I never add tobacco to my joints, nor do I know anyone who does.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: xasop on April 19, 2015, 11:25:54 AM
Making cannabis legal may sound very hipster and cool, but it goes against the strategies put in place by your nation to protect the public and minimise health issues.

Incorrect. As I alluded to in the OP, there is already a significant amount of alcohol-related violence in Sydney. Legalising recreational marijuana has the potential to reduce the impact of alcohol on society by providing a less harmful alternative.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Crudblud on April 19, 2015, 11:29:52 AM
1) Why don't you or Vindictus accept that there is tobacco in joints? Have either of you ever smoked one? You usually use a roach, not a filter. Its way worse for you than smoking a manufactured cigarette.
Putting tobacco in joints is what chavs used to do in order to make their weed last longer. Based on my own experiences, and the accounts of others, it seems like very few people roll joints with tobacco.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Vindictus on April 19, 2015, 11:35:21 AM
There are cigarettes in joints. You don't smoke it by itself.

The composition can vary quite a bit, but you realistically don't smoke multiple joints a day as you would a pack of ciggies.

And no. People may make fudge brownies because they are students, but the vast majority of recreational use the world over is smoking marijuana. You just haven't thought it through. You want to be seen as a liberal nation that allows people freedom of choice when it suits you, but are happy to be part of an oppressive regime that will ban things before anyone else on grounds of health or the environment because that suits your ideology. What you are doing is actually just wanting totalitarian control based on your ideology and that the laws should fit your world view, and to hell with the freedom of choice for anyone who doesn't want widespread drug use in their community or chooses to be a smoker.

I don't care much for the emotional arguments. The fact of the matter is that marijuana kills.. well, no one. Yet thousands die and burden our health system as a result of mild cigarette use. There's a stark difference between the two, and no amount of conflation with cigarettes is going to deny that.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Thork on April 19, 2015, 11:42:15 AM
1) Why don't you or Vindictus accept that there is tobacco in joints? Have either of you ever smoked one? You usually use a roach, not a filter. Its way worse for you than smoking a manufactured cigarette.
Putting tobacco in joints is what chavs used to do in order to make their weed last longer. Based on my own experiences, and the accounts of others, it seems like very few people roll joints with tobacco.
Well back in the day, I smoked superskunk. Make a pure joint out of that stuff and the washing up isn't going to get done.

Also, there seems to be a theme amongst you all that marijuana has no ill effects and is absolutely fine, like drinking a cup of water. It is a psycho active drug. Prolonged use can cause all kinds of issues. Paranoia, anxiety, schizophrenia, depersonalization disorder, bipolar disorders, and major depression.

I can tell you from my own experience it effected me for many years after. It gave me a bit of a stutter (gone now), slowed my speech and it ruined my short term memory ... also rectified. But those things took about 5 years to be completely sorted.

And yes, I smoked a hell of a lot of weed at uni. About an ounce a week. It was stupid and expensive. Haven't touched the stuff since the day I graduated about 15 years ago.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Vindictus on April 19, 2015, 11:46:03 AM
Also, there seems to be a theme amongst you all that marijuana has no ill effects and is absolutely fine, like drinking a cup of water. It is a psycho active drug. Prolonged use can cause all kinds of issues. Paranoia, anxiety, schizophrenia, depersonalization disorder, bipolar disorders, and major depression.

I can tell you from my own experience it effected me for many years after. It gave me a bit of a stutter (gone now), slowed my speech and it ruined my short term memory ... also rectified. But those things took about 5 years to be completely sorted.

Just about anything is bad in excess.

And yes, I smoked a hell of a lot of weed at uni.

Found the problem ;)
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Thork on April 19, 2015, 11:46:34 AM
The composition can vary quite a bit, but you realistically don't smoke multiple joints a day as you would a pack of ciggies.
I did. ???

1) Why don't you or Vindictus accept that there is tobacco in joints? Have either of you ever smoked one? You usually use a roach, not a filter. Its way worse for you than smoking a manufactured cigarette.
Putting tobacco in joints is what chavs used to do in order to make their weed last longer. Based on my own experiences, and the accounts of others, it seems like very few people roll joints with tobacco.
I never met anyone who doesn't put tobacco in a joint. For a start, it doesn't burn well without tobacco and keeps going out.

And by the way, how the hell do you smoke oils or resin in a joint without tobacco? And before you say bong, those are really really really bad for the lungs.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Thork on April 19, 2015, 11:49:51 AM
Making cannabis legal may sound very hipster and cool, but it goes against the strategies put in place by your nation to protect the public and minimise health issues.

Incorrect. As I alluded to in the OP, there is already a significant amount of alcohol-related violence in Sydney. Legalising recreational marijuana has the potential to reduce the impact of alcohol on society by providing a less harmful alternative.
I used to get high and then go out for drinks. Once you get used to smoking weed a lot, you don't get sick off it. You aren't going to solve the issue by adding more drugs to choose from. But you are likely to elevate crime as 'chavs' need some money for their new hobby.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: xasop on April 19, 2015, 11:58:00 AM
Also, there seems to be a theme amongst you all that marijuana has no ill effects and is absolutely fine, like drinking a cup of water. It is a psycho active drug. Prolonged use can cause all kinds of issues. Paranoia, anxiety, schizophrenia, depersonalization disorder, bipolar disorders, and major depression.

No. See also:

This seems to be a recurring problem with you; you seem to see someone saying "X should be legal", and somewhere between your retina and your cortex, the message transforms into "I think X is a great thing and we should have no restrictions whatsoever on it".

I am saying that marijuana is less harmful than alcohol, and therefore it would reduce the harmful effects of alcohol if it were easily available as an alternative. Not everything is black and white.

Furthermore, the harmful effects of cannabis are entirely on the user; alcohol causes antisocial behaviour which creates harmful effects even for people who are drinking responsibly. Even if they caused the same degree of harm, it is still preferable to have someone mess up their own life than to mess up the lives of others.

I used to get high and then go out for drinks. Once you get used to smoking weed a lot, you don't get sick off it. You aren't going to solve the issue by adding more drugs to choose from. But you are likely to elevate crime as 'chavs' need some money for their new hobby.

Once again, not everything is black and white. The fact that the availability of marijuana won't stop people from drinking does not imply that it won't stop some people from drinking, or that it won't reduce the amount people drink, or that it won't reduce the harmful effects of alcohol on society.

Ultimately, these are effects we can't be sure of until we trial it and measure its success, which I understand has worked well in the Netherlands and Portugal. I want to see if we have the same success in Australia.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Vindictus on April 19, 2015, 11:59:40 AM
People I know tend to just mix the two of them, which is stupid. Small sample size and all though.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Thork on April 19, 2015, 12:07:35 PM
Is there a breathalyser test for marijuana? Or doesn't being high effect your driving? I'd say that would effect others.

Why do you think making cannabis legal will reduce drinking? It hasn't in the Netherlands and Portugal despite your assertion. Portugal drink way more than us Brits and by God, we drink a lot.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption_per_capita
That's a very very weird theory with no scientific backing at all. If you want to stop people drinking so much, just get bar staff to breathalyse customers and set a limit. Or raise the cost of alcohol. Legalising cannabis to reduce drinking is like banning guns to prevent obesity.

People I know tend to just mix the two of them, which is stupid. Small sample size and all though.
Yeah, they will. Its not an alternative to drinking.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: xasop on April 19, 2015, 01:25:54 PM
Is there a breathalyser test for marijuana? Or doesn't being high effect your driving? I'd say that would effect others.

No, just like there isn't a breathalyser test for being agitated, stressed or tired, all of which can adversely affect your driving. Fortunately, there are blood tests, and while they are more difficult to perform than breath tests, this problem is easily addressed by permitting police to perform random blood tests at their discretion. This is a very minor issue and has little bearing on the matter at hand.

Why do you think making cannabis legal will reduce drinking? It hasn't in the Netherlands and Portugal despite your assertion. Portugal drink way more than us Brits and by God, we drink a lot.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption_per_capita
That's a very very weird theory with no scientific backing at all. If you want to stop people drinking so much, just get bar staff to breathalyse customers and set a limit. Or raise the cost of alcohol. Legalising cannabis to reduce drinking is like banning guns to prevent obesity.

Oh boy, where do I start?

First, the fact that their alcohol consumption is high does not imply that it has not been reduced. Second, my point was not that cannabis had reduced the amount of drinking in Portugal, but rather that it has had a net positive impact on their society. In particular:

Quote from: http://www.beckleyfoundation.org/bib/doc/bf/2010_Caitlin_211621_1.pdf
In the Portuguese case, the statistical indicators and key informant interviews that we have reviewed suggest that since decriminalization in July 2001, the following changes have occurred:
  • small increases in reported illicit drug use amongst adults;
  • reduced illicit drug use among problematic drug users and adolescents, at least since 2003;
  • reduced burden of drug offenders on the criminal justice system;
  • increased uptake of drug treatment;
  • reduction in opiate-related deaths and infectious diseases;
  • increases in the amounts of drugs seized by the authorities;
  • reductions in the retail prices of drugs.

Whether we also see positive results with our social problems in Sydney remains to be seen. My point is that we don't know for certain what effect it will have until we try it.

Finally, I'm not suggesting that making cannabis legal will reduce drinking, only that it stands a chance of addressing our alcohol-related violence problem. There are any number of ways it could do that, one of which is a reduction in the amount of drinking, but another could simply be that its relaxant properties help to suppress the antisocial behaviour associated with alcohol. As I said, we don't know for certain until we try it.

People I know tend to just mix the two of them, which is stupid. Small sample size and all though.
Yeah, they will. Its not an alternative to drinking.

That depends entirely on what your motive for drinking is. The blanket statement that "its [sic] not an alternative to drinking" completely ignores the fact that other people might drink for reasons different than your own.

In my particular case, sometimes I have a drink just because I feel like unwinding, or want a buzz. In that case, I would likely be equally well satisfied by marijuana. As someone who has never taken cannabis, it's impossible to comment directly on what the after-effects are like, but I would be very interested in trying alternative ways of getting a buzz without alcohol's withdrawal symptoms.

Of course, there are also some people for whom it would not be an alternative to drinking, and that's perfectly fine because the point is not to prevent all alcohol consumption. Why is it so difficult to get this point across?
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Tau on April 19, 2015, 03:07:55 PM
Actually, research finds that  legalizing marijuana might make the roads safer (http://www.businessinsider.com/it-turns-out-that-smoking-marijuana-may-actually-make-you-a-better-driver-2011-12). It's surprisingly difficult to say that there's a correlation between pot use and accidents, according to the research I've found. So that argument is out.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: xasop on April 19, 2015, 03:13:00 PM
Actually, research finds that  legalizing marijuana might make the roads safer (http://www.businessinsider.com/it-turns-out-that-smoking-marijuana-may-actually-make-you-a-better-driver-2011-12). It's surprisingly difficult to say that there's a correlation between pot use and accidents, according to the research I've found. So that argument is out.

This article supports my primary point, too:

Quote
One key factor is the reduction in alcohol consumption. The study finds that there is a direct correlation between the use of marijuana and a reduction in beer sales, especially in the younger folks aged 20-29.

A drop in beer sales supports the theory that marijuana can act as a substitute for liquor.

Thanks for the link, Tausami.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Shane on April 19, 2015, 03:26:13 PM
I like to smoke weed, so it should be legal. Weed is best served jampacked with cigarettes, Thork is right.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: beardo on April 19, 2015, 03:43:03 PM
Sean. Stop.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Rushy on April 19, 2015, 03:50:32 PM
When weed is legal, what is something that I can put in it that will make people more addicted to it? I could soak it in nicotine extract. Hmm.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Blanko on April 19, 2015, 04:15:57 PM
When weed is legal, what is something that I can put in it that will make people more addicted to it? I could soak it in nicotine extract. Hmm.

But that would make them addicted to nicotine.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Rushy on April 19, 2015, 04:18:30 PM
But that would make them addicted to nicotine.

Which their mind will remember was acquired from my weed specifically. They'll get that craving unless they buy more specifically from me. It is foolproof. Until I get sued or something. Hm.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: garygreen on April 19, 2015, 04:24:43 PM
I want to clarify a few misconceptions about marijuana use:

Legalising cannabis to reduce drinking is like banning guns to prevent obesity.

I can only speak for myself, but marijuana is a huge part of the reason I don't drink.  I like being intoxicated.  I find it relaxing.  I prefer marijuana to the exclusion of alcohol.  Alcohol gives me hangovers and wrecks my ability to think and make good decisions.  Pot lets me relax and still be a completely functional human being.  But, if pot weren't available to me, I'd still want to be intoxicated, so I'd just drink instead of smoke.

What's more, I definitely know plenty of people who would make the same decision if pot was decriminalized and regulated like alcohol.  They don't now because it's illicit.

I never met anyone who doesn't put tobacco in a joint. For a start, it doesn't burn well without tobacco and keeps going out.

Have you ever heard of a pipe?  Or a vaporizer?  I'm sure there are difference between American and European marijuana use, but most of the people I know smoke their weed in pipes, bongs, and vaporizers; not joints or spliffs.  And if I think about it for a moment, I know hardly anyone other than myself in America who smokes spliffs and not joints.  My experiences surely aren't universal, but it's definitely not the case that everyone who smokes pot mixes it with tobacco.  Not even close, probably.

And by the way, how the hell do you smoke oils or resin in a joint without tobacco?

I smoke hash oils and concentrates by vaporizing them using a water pipe and a titanium fixture (called a "nail").  Think of a bong, but where the weed would go there's a titanium screw that you heat with a torch lighter to vaporize the oil.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: xasop on April 19, 2015, 04:28:47 PM
But that would make them addicted to nicotine.

Which their mind will remember was acquired from my weed specifically. They'll get that craving unless they buy more specifically from me. It is foolproof. Until I get sued or something. Hm.

I fully support your right to do that, so long as you clearly label your product as what it is. Anyone who buys your product is responsible for their own choices, not you and not the government.

Here's a speech from Australian Liberal Democrats senator David Leyonhjelm, which I completely agree with and find to be a very powerful argument (as is usual for Leyonhjelm's speeches) for legalisation of marijuana:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ckfp3M3EsrY
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Thork on April 19, 2015, 04:47:17 PM
When weed is legal, what is something that I can put in it that will make people more addicted to it? I could soak it in nicotine extract. Hmm.
A small amount of any type of poison will do it. Strychnine, nicotine, taxine, cyanide, most pesticides, ricin. Pretty much anything other than heavy metals which will kill you by accumulation. Your body trying to rid you of the poison creates a withdrawl symptom when its finished and that makes you addicted.

Actually, research finds that  legalizing marijuana might make the roads safer (http://www.businessinsider.com/it-turns-out-that-smoking-marijuana-may-actually-make-you-a-better-driver-2011-12). It's surprisingly difficult to say that there's a correlation between pot use and accidents, according to the research I've found. So that argument is out.
Yeah, a source like that isn't a fact. Here's the exact opposite. http://www2.potsdam.edu/alcohol/files/Marijuana-Use-Increases-Risk-of-Traffic-Crashes-and-Deaths.html#.VTPYpnl0yUk

You can deduce this by common sense. Are you going to be more likely to have an accident when you are high? Answer: Yes. Because it impairs your senses. That's the point of it. Might it reduce drink driving accidents? Possibly but they are very very rare as a percentage of accidents anyway. And will there be more accidents caused by people who are now high and otherwise wouldn't be drinking?

Finally, I'm not suggesting that making cannabis legal will reduce drinking, only that it stands a chance of addressing our alcohol-related violence problem. There are any number of ways it could do that, one of which is a reduction in the amount of drinking, but another could simply be that its relaxant properties help to suppress the antisocial behaviour associated with alcohol. As I said, we don't know for certain until we try it.
You can't keep flip-flopping. It's illegal, it's legal, sorry our mistake, it's illegal again. If you allow the public to use a narcotic for recreational purposes you have opened Pandora's box. Its not then very easy to put the evil back into that box. People will resist and break the law. After all, you got them using it by making it legal. Its not about "we have to try". That is completely irresponsible. People may be directly harmed by your changes in legislation.

Also cannabis is usually smoked with cigarette tobacco. I can tell you know, you will get more smokers. I had a friend at uni who just smoked weed. One day he was saying to me, "I really need a joint". I looked at him and said "No one needs a joint, what you want it a cigarette". He laughed and I gave him a cigarette as we were out of cannabis. He smoked it and the penny dropped. He was addicted to cigarettes and that was why he'd been using up my pot supply. >o< He became a full time smoker from that moment on.

Making cannabis use social and recreational is undoubtedly going to make more smokers. Call it a gateway drug if you like. But leading to smoking full time.

I want to clarify a few misconceptions about marijuana use:

Legalising cannabis to reduce drinking is like banning guns to prevent obesity.

I can only speak for myself, but marijuana is a huge part of the reason I don't drink.  I like being intoxicated.  I find it relaxing.  I prefer marijuana to the exclusion of alcohol.  Alcohol gives me hangovers and wrecks my ability to think and make good decisions.  Pot lets me relax and still be a completely functional human being.  But, if pot weren't available to me, I'd still want to be intoxicated, so I'd just drink instead of smoke.

What's more, I definitely know plenty of people who would make the same decision if pot was decriminalized and regulated like alcohol.  They don't now because it's illicit.

I never met anyone who doesn't put tobacco in a joint. For a start, it doesn't burn well without tobacco and keeps going out.

Have you ever heard of a pipe?  Or a vaporizer?  I'm sure there are difference between American and European marijuana use, but most of the people I know smoke their weed in pipes, bongs, and vaporizers; not joints or spliffs.  And if I think about it for a moment, I know hardly anyone other than myself in America who smokes spliffs and not joints.  My experiences surely aren't universal, but it's definitely not the case that everyone who smokes pot mixes it with tobacco.  Not even close, probably.

And by the way, how the hell do you smoke oils or resin in a joint without tobacco?

I smoke hash oils and concentrates by vaporizing them using a water pipe and a titanium fixture (called a "nail").  Think of a bong, but where the weed would go there's a titanium screw that you heat with a torch lighter to vaporize the oil.
If you go into a bar in Amsterdam to smoke, you buy a joint or two. They don't rush you out a bong or a vaporiser or a pipe. Its a social thing and you smoke socially. You aren't going to get wrecked as fast as possible by inhaling a bucket. Hash bars will sell joints. And they don't sell all kinds of paraphernalia that goes with it in those bars. It isn't meant to be a drugs den. People smoke because smoking is social as native American's I'm sure will testify. ;-)
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: xasop on April 19, 2015, 04:51:58 PM
Its not about "we have to try".

Read the thread title.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Thork on April 19, 2015, 04:53:20 PM
In your OP you talked about recreational use. Not medical use. The trial is for medical use. Different topic entirely.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: xasop on April 19, 2015, 04:57:41 PM
In your OP you talked about recreational use. Not medical use. The trial is for medical use. Different topic entirely.

Different, but related. What I said was:

My eventual hope is that this trial, combined with the NSW government's obvious concern for alcohol-related violence in Sydney, will lead them to decriminalising recreational marijuana as an alternative to Sydney's decadent alcohol culture.

Naturally, one way to accomplish that would be to begin a trial of recreational cannabis in the same vein.

However, even skipping a trial, I think there is a substantial body of evidence from decriminalisation in other countries to say that it won't have a negative impact. At worst, things will remain exactly the same. As such, there's no reason not to try.

What you're suggesting is hindering progress because we don't know how much progress will be made. Imagine if that reasoning had been applied to the construction of large-scale electricity networks, or mass production of automobiles. At some point, you have to accept the fact that advances in society are made by trying new things once you have a reasonable expectation of safety and seeing what happens.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Thork on April 19, 2015, 05:00:01 PM
I just disagree with you. I think legalising it will have a negative impact. I think the system is fine as it is. The world isn't perfect, you can't make utopian legislation. You have to be practical.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: xasop on April 19, 2015, 05:04:33 PM
I just disagree with you. I think legalising it will have a negative impact.

This isn't a matter of opinion, I've provided substantiating evidence. You have provided none. Your case holds no weight.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Rushy on April 19, 2015, 05:05:13 PM
I fully support your right to do that, so long as you clearly label your product as what it is. Anyone who buys your product is responsible for their own choices, not you and not the government.

Here's a speech from Australian Liberal Democrats senator David Leyonhjelm, which I completely agree with and find to be a very powerful argument (as is usual for Leyonhjelm's speeches) for legalisation of marijuana:

I just need to print something along the lines of "may contain nicotine" or "made using the same facilities that process tobacco products" somewhere in tiny print on my product and I'm good to go.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Thork on April 19, 2015, 05:07:46 PM
I just disagree with you. I think legalising it will have a negative impact.

This isn't a matter of opinion, I've provided substantiating evidence. You have provided none. Your case holds no weight.
Yawn. I'm sure you know how to use google to find evidence of an opposing point of view.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/ondcp/issues-content/marijuana_and_public_health_one_pager_-_final.pdf
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Shane on April 19, 2015, 05:10:16 PM
Thork has crime run rampant in Amsterdam?

Also, see Colorado. Those guys are making mad bucks for the state and as far as I am aware they are doing just fine.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: xasop on April 19, 2015, 05:17:27 PM
Yawn. I'm sure you know how to use google to find evidence of an opposing point of view.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/ondcp/issues-content/marijuana_and_public_health_one_pager_-_final.pdf

This isn't evidence, it's propaganda. The first part doesn't even begin to address the issue of legality, and the few attempts at logical reasoning the latter part makes are fundamentally flawed. For example, it tries to use the social cost of alcohol to show that the social cost of marijuana would be high, without providing any rationale for the two being comparable.

Given that the part of the document relating to health issues is useless, I looked at one of its references (http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/occasional_papers/2010/RAND_OP325.pdf) for economic issues. Big surprise; the document they referenced shows that legalising marijuana in California would not eliminate the black market in Mexico because Mexico could provide the product at a cheaper cost. This is not indicative of a drug problem, but an economic problem.

Is this really the best you can do?
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Thork on April 19, 2015, 05:20:24 PM
Thork has crime run rampant in Amsterdam?
Yes. They tried to ban tourists from using marijuana altogether in Amsterdam
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/27/netherlands-cannabis-cafes-off-limits-tourists
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/netherlands/100202/marijuana-cannabis-amsterdam-coffee-shop

They are cracking down on people growing their own
http://www.hortidaily.com/article/15621/Dutch-prohibit-sale-of-horticultural-supplies-to-cannabis-growers

They are banning stronger varients
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/01/netherlands-drugs-idUSL5E8E12HN20120301
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/01/dutch-ban-hash-but-permit-dutch-cannabis-use-to-continue.html

and closed a bunch of the coffee shops down because they were adversely affecting children.
http://www.dutchamsterdam.nl/548-amsterdam-closing-coffeeshops


The Netherlands is trying to put the genie back in the bottle. their experiment has failed.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Rushy on April 19, 2015, 07:37:20 PM
I support legalization because I want to sell it to people and I also realize that making it illegal is functionally impossible. If we couldn't manage to stop alcohol, a product you have to build vats to produce in large volumes, how are we going to stop a plant that can grow in someone's backyard? It is nonsense. It also fills jails up with people who are non-violent offenders.

Besides, Thork, if weed were legal everywhere, then Amsterdam wouldn't have a problem with tourists, then, would it? It looks more like their problems are coming from assholes that travel to the country just to weed up.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: spoon on April 19, 2015, 08:44:14 PM

There are cigarettes in joints.


(http://i.imgur.com/Q93TOT0.gif)
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on April 19, 2015, 09:46:47 PM
Wow, THORK, you've just taken the Taco for, well, silly posts. I don't even know what to say at this point. Enjoy your Taco prize, is all I can say.

I support legalisation of Marijuana for a few reasons. One, what is on the market now is not your father's Mexican Green. It's a lot more potent, like 60 times as potent, and unless regulated, has the potential to do some serious fucking damage to someone who doesn't know what they are getting. I know, I've messed with some of it. I think if regulated, you can know what you're getting, and it would be better for your own health, both physically and mentally. Two, it gets A LOT of non-violent "offenders" out of the jails and penitentiaries. The United States, per capita the population, has more people "locked up" than any other nation on Earth. This includes such luminaries of human rights in our world as China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and even North Korea.

There is absolutely no logical reason on Earth that Marijuana should be considered ILLEGAL while alcohol is considered LEGAL. Alcohol does far more social damage every year to society than marijuana ever thought of doing. The situation is absolutely absurd. Obviously, they need to establish legal places to use the stuff, and legal places where you can and cannot be when you are under its influence. Going carte blanche, as they did in Colorado, was just straight up stupid.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Particle Person on April 20, 2015, 03:33:54 AM
I support legalization because I want to sell it to people

You want to open a dispensary, or just grow your own terrible weed in your closet and sell that?
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Rushy on April 20, 2015, 03:49:18 AM
I support legalization because I want to sell it to people

You want to open a dispensary, or just grow your own terrible weed in your closet and sell that?

Whichever one would have the higher profit margin and volume. Besides, why would I grow it in my closet if it was legal?
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Tau on April 20, 2015, 04:01:43 AM
I support legalization because I want to sell it to people

You want to open a dispensary, or just grow your own terrible weed in your closet and sell that?

Whichever one would have the higher profit margin and volume. Besides, why would I grow it in my closet if it was legal?

Presumably there will be expensive and annoying regulations to follow, even if it is legal.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Particle Person on April 20, 2015, 04:08:46 AM
I support legalization because I want to sell it to people

You want to open a dispensary, or just grow your own terrible weed in your closet and sell that?

Whichever one would have the higher profit margin and volume. Besides, why would I grow it in my closet if it was legal?

Why marijuana, specifically? You could open a bar right now if you wanted to sell a legal drug. Or sell 40oz bottles to homeless people.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Rushy on April 20, 2015, 04:11:21 AM
Presumably there will be expensive and annoying regulations to follow, even if it is legal.

I will pay B Franko to lobby for me. I hear he is all up in those politicians assholes.

Why marijuana, specifically? You could open a bar right now if you wanted to sell a legal drug. Or sell 40oz bottles to homeless people.

Alcohol makes people angry and want to fight other people. Weed makes them calm and hungry. Plus, alcohol already has so much competition. Bars are everywhere. Legal weed dispensaries are a new frontier.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: mister bickles on May 23, 2015, 08:50:28 AM
"cannabis" is a harmless plant with many medicinal properties and many other uses (paper, cosmetics, rope, clothing &c).....
its a total outrage that its been criminalised and can only be attributed, like most other outrages, to an international criminal gang of a certain sinister ethnicity!   >:(
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: xasop on May 23, 2015, 08:55:44 AM
Thanks for bumping this thread, bickles. It's reminded me to post an update:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-21/norfolk-island-medical-marijuana-calls-to-legalise/6486906

They're now allowing cannabis to be grown in Australia for export only. This decision is fairly typical of our authoritarian right-wing administration; they're quite happy for businesses to do what they want, so long as it doesn't come at the expense of liberating the Australian people.

However, despite the situational absurdity, I still believe this is another step in the right direction. The fact that cannabis may now be legally grown in Australia can only serve to put pressure on Canberra to allow our home-grown produce to be used locally, and maybe (most likely after the next change of government) they'll actually listen.

Meanwhile, the medicinal cannabis trial in some states can continue to pile on the evidence for its legalisation being a good idea. Abbott may not be the type who listens to scientific reasoning, but his successor just might be.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Rushy on May 23, 2015, 01:22:56 PM
It's like Australia reads my political trolling, says "that's a good idea" and then implements it. Hilarious.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: xasop on May 23, 2015, 02:02:12 PM
It's like Australia reads my political trolling, says "that's a good idea" and then implements it. Hilarious.

Tony Abbott on a good day is far worse than your most creative trolling.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on May 24, 2015, 07:38:48 PM
Well, there is no evidence that Jews have anything to do with cannabis being legal or illegal. BICKLES is just showing his unique aptitude for illogic. In fact, in the United States, I would suggest that, most Jews being Democrats (myself not among them, but that is another matter), the majority of us would support the legalisation of the stuff. And I certainly do. It seems very stupid to have it be illegal for the reasons I stated above.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Bodysis on January 14, 2021, 10:34:41 PM
Almost for three years now, I continually talk about the usefulness of marijuana and why it would be right to legalize this product all around the world. Of course, I know some cases when people got addicted to marijuana and this led to bad or even fatal effects, but using marijuana unlike alcohol, can bring a lot of helpful effects like a stress reliever or even a pain reliever.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Iceman on January 14, 2021, 10:42:00 PM
There will be a flood of countries that legalize, or at least decriminalize, marijuana in the next ten years.

Theres simply no reason not to. Look at all the examples of countries and states that have done it over the last decade. There is no rise is use, addiction, deaths, other drug use. And government control of the market leads to huge tax revenue which is being used in many cases for increased mental health support, education, or other social services, all while freeing up police to spend time on more worthwhile investigations and arrests.

The only thing slowing down the process is the slow development of a reliable roadside 'sobriety' test for pot. There are some that appear to be effective, but it's nowhere near as clear cut as blood/breath alcohol content...
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Rama Set on January 14, 2021, 10:49:26 PM
Fortunately pot doesn't appear to have a strong deleterious effect on your motor skills.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Iceman on January 14, 2021, 11:17:39 PM
I agree, but I think it's one of the strongest negative perceptions people have about it. Legalization means that kids will all be driving around high...blah blah blah.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: TomInAustin on January 21, 2021, 08:30:22 PM
It's humorous that a drug as 'soft' as marijuana is still restricted so heavily here, even if it isn't heavily policed. Lots of people don't really care about the issue either. I think in the very least it should be legalized for medical use.

Next up, MDMA..

What sucks, even more, is oil and edibles are still classed like heroin and coke.   A serious felony for a plant extract
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: Clyde Frog on January 21, 2021, 09:51:51 PM
It's humorous that a drug as 'soft' as marijuana is still restricted so heavily here, even if it isn't heavily policed. Lots of people don't really care about the issue either. I think in the very least it should be legalized for medical use.

Next up, MDMA..

What sucks, even more, is oil and edibles are still classed like heroin and coke.   A serious felony for a plant extract
You do realize that heroin and coke are also plant extracts, right? I agree that having cannabis oil, or products containing it like edibles, shouldn't be a felony. But the "it's just a plant extract" kind of argument runs into some obstacles. Heroin and cocaine are both basically just alkaloid extracts from poppy and coca plants, respectively.
Title: Re: Medicinal cannabis trial in Australia
Post by: TomInAustin on January 22, 2021, 05:22:23 PM
It's humorous that a drug as 'soft' as marijuana is still restricted so heavily here, even if it isn't heavily policed. Lots of people don't really care about the issue either. I think in the very least it should be legalized for medical use.

Next up, MDMA..

What sucks, even more, is oil and edibles are still classed like heroin and coke.   A serious felony for a plant extract
You do realize that heroin and coke are also plant extracts, right? I agree that having cannabis oil, or products containing it like edibles, shouldn't be a felony. But the "it's just a plant extract" kind of argument runs into some obstacles. Heroin and cocaine are both basically just alkaloid extracts from poppy and coca plants, respectively.

Yes, I thought about that 2 seconds after I posted.  But I also think that all drugs should be legal, self-solving problems.  Prohibition never stopped anything.