[douglips]

We have the evidence from all the photovoltaic installations on that website whose name escapes me.

I believe the only thing we had left to prove there was that PV cells don't produce significant power until about 15 minutes after sunrise, if we can show that we have 1 million+ independent solar observatories that were installed for power generation purposes and thus aren't in the pocket of Big Oblate Spheroid.

[inquisitive]

Its your responsibility to provide the evidence for your own claims. Please stop trying to weasle out of providing basic evidence for the claims asserted.

How can we provide evidence to an "empirical only" perspective??? You reject all evidence you haven't seen yourself!! All I suggest is that you could verify time and date yourself seeing as you refute all 2nd hand evidence! It is most certainty NOT weaseling on any level, apart from yours.

I'm not asking for any impissible level of evidence. We don't reject all evidence we have not seen ourselves. Don't you see us quoting links in our discussions?

We just need basic evidence for these claims you say prove your model. What do you have against the need for providing basic evidence for your clains?

Please describe what you understand basic evidence to mean.

ps, no need to use the word 'we'.  And links to current and recent research please.

[ah4truth2017]

I'm not asking for any impissible level of evidence. We don't reject all evidence we have not seen ourselves. Don't you see us quoting links in our discussions?

Alright, since external links are sufficient:
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/canada/montreal?month=3&year=2017
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/peru/iquitos?month=3&year=2017
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/chile/valdivia?month=3&year=2017
http://www.sunrise-and-sunset.com/en/sun/canada/montreal/2017/march
http://www.sunrise-and-sunset.com/en/sun/peru/iquitos/2017/march
http://www.sunrise-and-sunset.com/en/sun/chile/valdivia/2017/march
http://sunsetsunrisetime.com/Canada/Montreal_2412.html
http://sunsetsunrisetime.com/Peru/Iquitos_15460.html
http://sunsetsunrisetime.com/Chile/Valdivia_2783.html

...do I need to keep going? There's three separate websites with matching data. The last one (sunsetsunrisetime.com) even leaves the times in UTC, showing they actually are the same without trying to know the local time zone (and daylight savings) laws. (After all, there are over 500 variations)

On top of that, there's a combined 2.2 million people living in those 3 cities.

[Tom Bishop]

An online calculator isn't evidence for the claim. Those are not observations or experiences.

If you guys have no evidence for this then we have nothing to discuss.

[devils advocate]

Its your responsibility to provide the evidence for your own claims. Please stop trying to weasle out of providing basic evidence for the claims asserted.

How can we provide evidence to an "empirical only" perspective??? You reject all evidence you haven't seen yourself!! All I suggest is that you could verify time and date yourself seeing as you refute all 2nd hand evidence! It is most certainty NOT weaseling on any level, apart from yours.

I'm not asking for any impossible level of evidence. We don't reject all evidence we have not seen ourselves. Don't you see us quoting links in our discussions?

We just need basic evidence for these claims you say prove your model. What do you have against the need for providing basic evidence for your clains?

Basic evidence is provided by timeanddate, you are being asked to verify this evidence from your own perspective so the debate can continue.

As yet I have seen NO evidence for UA, FE maps, celestial navigation, the shadow object etc so no the idea that you provide evidence and links for your claims is false

[ah4truth2017]

An online calculator isn't evidence for the claim. Those are not observations or experiences.

If you guys have no evidence for this then we have nothing to discuss.

Okay, then by all means explain what evidence is sufficient. If I had a picture or video, it's fake. If I travel there and write down a time, it's fake. (Nor can I be in all three places to validate the "same time" assertion.) You claim an external source is valid, until it isn't. A calculator works because the sun, in both models, travels a consistent & predictable path. You'll note that all 9 links are for March 2017 (rather than supposing that 2018 will be correct) so either they're just wrong or all 3 are making the same lie.

I would have preferred to see you debate this based on the position of TFES, rather than doubting any evidence I try to present. My case hasn't discounted your evidence, so if we're left with "nothing to discuss," then it isn't because I have no evidence.

[Tom Haws]

Tom Bishop, is it your position that:

1. Sunrise and sunset times for all points and days on earth are not known?
2. Distances between all cities on earth are not known?

[douglips]

I don't understand this. Tom, I thought we agreed that latitude and longitude are well established concepts? They don't have to mean the earth is round, but for centuries the Royal Navy used them to navigate, and we have well established measurements of latitudes and longitudes.

Some conclusions that I would expect you to agree with:
- Latitude indicates the angle the sun makes from the azimuth at noon on the equinox, and is 90 degrees minus the angle from azimuth to the north star (when visible, and corrected for the north star's slight offset from true north)
- Longitude indicates time offset from Greenwich Mean/UTC - 15 degrees per hour. 0 degrees longitude is where the sun is highest in the sky at noon UTC (except for the analemma of course)

I presented to you books from the Royal Navy on how to do latitude and longitude measurements based on the sun, stars, and moon from 150+ years ago, and books with tables of the latitudes and longitudes of many places around the world, and with logbooks from e.g. Captain Cook's voyages showing latitude/longitude measurements just about every day.

Do we not agree that latitude and longitude correspond to positions of the sun?

[Tom Bishop]

I am not interested in engaging in this discussion further until evidence has been presented.

[Tom Haws]

Firstly, before we engage with this, do you have any actual evidence, outside of a theoretical sun calculator and specious ad hominem fallacies, that these points really do see exactly 12 hour days at that time as proposed by the Round Earth model?

Well, how about we proceed from the definition of "equinox"? Do you recognize the term equinox, and if so, how do you define it?

[ah4truth2017]

I am not interested in engaging in this discussion further until evidence has been presented.

Tom, you have been asked several times to define (to us non-zetetics) what standard of evidence would be acceptable for this discussion to continue, beyond what has already been provided. Short of understanding that, it's no wonder that we can't continue a healthy debate. Or do I need to itemize my concerns about the flat earth "evidence?"

If you still aren't going to be clear, then I guess good day to you.

[mtnman]

I'm not asking for any impossible level of evidence. We don't reject all evidence we have not seen ourselves. Don't you see us quoting links in our discussions?

We just need basic evidence for these claims you say prove your model. What do you have against the need for providing basic evidence for your clains?

Once again, please give an example of what you would accept as evidence that time and date.com is correct? I don't expect any serious answer since you know acknowledging them as correct will never help your FE case, so you want to maintain a case that allows you to ignore their data.

Do you accept sunrise/sunset times provided by TV/newspapers as accurate?

I don't know how many users are on this forum, but I suspect there are many from different parts of the world. Let's collectively do an experiment with timeanddate forecasts vs. predictions made according to your flat Earth model. That should be informative, right?

[ah4truth2017]

Well, since Tom has chosen to not accept the provided evidence, I figure I'll wrap up my foray into the Flat Earth world with an explanation that would help people independently verify my claims with other examples.

First off, start with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_longitude, and find examples of cities with longitude within 5-20' of each other. The fact they are a round-earth longitude is irrelevant, this is just a starting point. Look up their equinox sunrise/sunset on one of many websites (if you trust them), and you will find they are within a minute or two, depending on the initial difference in longitude.

• Provided your examples are notably different latitudes, the same case as the original post will work. Similar latitudes don't falsify my claim, they just don't help because the math *technically* works to support FE just as well at that point.
• My original post didn't strictly need Iquitos to demonstrate the point. However, having the 3rd data point ensures no circle/curve of the "spotlight" can possibly work for both sunrise & sunset. (As in a mathematical proof that 3 points can only be intersected by one circle.)

[mtnman]

Thanks again for the thoughtful post. The FE faithful will continue to reject anything that potentially conflicts their core belief. Predictions of sunset/sunrise times from any source will be on that list along with GPS, satellite TV, sat phones, spacecraft, etc.

[ah4truth2017]

It was fun, I only wish it could have sparked an actual discussion. I don't really have time to debate something that is just stonewalled. That said, it might be fun to take https://wiki.tfes.org/A_hundred_proofs_the_Earth_is_not_a_globe and break each one down one by one. I wonder how many will just need a "show me the evidence." (like the one about a lunar eclipse with both sun & moon above the horizon?)

[Tom Haws]

The thing that feels the most dishonest about all this is that none of us humans really thinks for a moment that at sunset the sun fades into the distance rather than sinking in full glory below the horizon.

 

That said, it might be fun to take https://wiki.tfes.org/A_hundred_proofs_the_Earth_is_not_a_globe and break each one down one by one.

I agree it would be interesting to go one by one through those proofs, especially since many of them are maddeningly wrong. I initially was trying to focus on the Wiki page about Eratosthenes, but I was given a runaround instead of any interest at all in improving that page.

[mtnman]

Yes, and it's hard to take the "show me the evidence" demand seriously from people that claim a mystery shadow object is responsible for eclipses

[juner]

Yes, and it's hard to take the "show me the evidence" demand seriously from people that claim a mystery shadow object is responsible for eclipses

Did you have a point to make, or did you feel just quoting a post from another user somehow adds anything useful to the thread?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that it was accidental. Going to go the next level ban from here.

[ah4truth2017]

Yes, and it's hard to take the "show me the evidence" demand seriously from people that claim a mystery shadow object is responsible for eclipses

Let's also be clear that those aren't my words. (@Moderator, I suspect a failure in formatting rather than an intentional "quote only" post.)

[ah4truth2017]

(like the one about a lunar eclipse with both sun & moon above the horizon?)

If anyone wants to discuss this further, it really should get its own thread (rather than distracting from the point on sunrise/sunset) ...but since I brought it up here, I thought it worthy of mention. I searched on it, and was surprised to learn that a "selenelion" is a real thing. Pictures are the only evidence though, so I guess you really can't know for sure.