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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #80 on: June 07, 2021, 05:57:18 PM »
That clearly does not state trans kids are banned from playing sports.
Ah, I assume you're suggesting they play sports on the team they don't identify with. Neat.

What is all this 'identifying' horseshit coming out of the USA?

If you are identified as a murderer ... you identifying yourself as a non-murderer isn't worth a squirrel's nutsack. And if society identifies you as a man ... it isn't every human alive who needs to be constantly corrected to the contrary. That's just ridiculous. Its like those vacuous celebs who give you a list of preferred pronouns in their Twitter bio. I can't even remember your names, let alone which pronoun you each prefer ... less do I care.  >o<

If Johnny 'identifies' as a girl, it isn't all his teachers and classmates and relatives and friends and everyone else who need to be corrected. Its Johnny. Johnny is the one with gender dysmorphia.

Another fallacy ... "I was born in the wrong body". Well we can all play that game. I should have been born in Henry Cavill's body. But I wasn't. And no amount of telling people that I'm Henry Cavill is going to turn me into superman. You were born into the body you have. We could all pick one we prefer. That doesn't mean we get to pretend to be the identity we want to emulate.

So, if Johnny is a boy ... he competes with the boys. It may be easier to compete against girls. He may have more success against girls. He may prefer competing against girls. But newsflash ... the girls don't want to compete against him. In my article.
Quote from: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-57338207
Her[sic] physical superiority is so evident as to make competition unfair ... If she[sic] wants to run with us we would be happy for her[sic] to do so. We will always welcome her[sic] but we don't want her[sic] to compete with us for titles

Who decided that Johnny was so precious and mustn't ever hear the word no? "Can I compete against the girls?" ... "No Johnny, you're a 175 pound dude, stop being a prick". Its pretty easy.
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Offline Action80

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #81 on: June 08, 2021, 10:17:51 AM »
That clearly does not state trans kids are banned from playing sports.
Ah, I assume you're suggesting they play sports on the team they don't identify with. Neat.
How you identify is irrelevant.

If I suddenly show up demanding a senior citizen discount at my local restaurant because I feel 65 years old, they are under no obligation to cater to my feelings because the reality is I am not 65 years old despite my feelings.

How does this fact escape you?

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #82 on: June 08, 2021, 12:05:16 PM »
That clearly does not state trans kids are banned from playing sports.
Ah, I assume you're suggesting they play sports on the team they don't identify with. Neat.
How you identify is irrelevant.

If I suddenly show up demanding a senior citizen discount at my local restaurant because I feel 65 years old, they are under no obligation to cater to my feelings because the reality is I am not 65 years old despite my feelings.

How does this fact escape you?

You should discuss this with doctors. The medical professionals have been studying transgendered people for 100+ years and the consensus is that your characterization is incorrect. Despite the protests against acting on feelings, you, Thork and Tom have been making emotional pleas draped in post hoc  rationalizations.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #83 on: June 08, 2021, 12:07:35 PM »
Tbh, I've always thought that people "identifying as"... was complete horseshit, but rooster's link about brain structure was interesting and has made me think twice.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #84 on: June 08, 2021, 02:12:21 PM »
Tbh, I've always thought that people "identifying as"... was complete horseshit
I think this highlights an important problem with the language we've chosen to describe these issues. It sounds a lot like "meh, they just decided they're XYZ now", and that implication is probably doing a lot of harm to public understanding. Though I have absolutely no idea how it could be described better.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Offline xasop

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #85 on: June 08, 2021, 02:18:18 PM »
Rather than argue about whether gender identity is valid, it may be more constructive to take it for granted and instead consider the goal of having separate sporting events for men and women. My understanding of the goal is that it gives women a fair chance to win events without competition from (on average) physically stronger men. That is, gender is not important per se, but rather the fact that half the population is not on a level playing field with the other half. If women were equal to men in physical strength, but brown-haired people were weaker than blonde-haired people, we would instead have sporting events segregated by hair colour.

If we accept, then, that gender is no more than an incidental part of the reason why we have women's sporting events, we can begin to consider what is significant. I can see a few options:
  • Abolish all gender segregation in sport and allow the best athletes, of any sex and gender, to win.
  • Establish some standard by which trans people can be medically certified as having transitioned to the point that they are of typical stature for their target sex, and hence permitted to participate in sport for that gender.
  • Base segregation in sport on sex at birth, and not gender, while acknowledging that these are now mixed-gender sporting events to accommodate trans people.
  • Abolish gender segregation in sport, but establish a tiered system where athletes compete against people of similar physical stature to them, regardless of sex or gender.
The first option would undoubtedly mean that men win most events, which would upset feminists and risk injury to women in contact sports, so it is not ideal. The second is extremely difficult to get right due to the fact that differences between the sexes are only broad averages, so whatever standard is chosen, it will do nothing to settle the controversy.

I therefore posit that the third and fourth options are the only workable ones. That is, we need a reform of gender-segregated sport. The question is whether to base the admission criteria on physical sex, or on some other means of classifying physical strength.
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol

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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #86 on: June 08, 2021, 02:27:27 PM »
What a rubbish post.

We have men's and women's events so that everyone has the opportunity to compete. The women's event is a handicapped event. In boxing, you don't put a 15 stone fighter up against a 9 stone fighter. The outcome is obvious  as 9 stone men wouldn't be able to compete and no one would enjoy it. Well, maybe for a little bit we'd all enjoy watching little guys getting the crap beaten out of them, but its not competitive.

Now when we segregate on sex, that's a handicap event too. The handicap being you have no y-chromosome. If you don't have a y-chromosome, you can compete in the women's. You qualify. If you do have a y-chromosome ... we call you a 'man' and you can compete in the open competition ... the mens. It is so simple.

"Ahhh, xxy chromosomes ... ok, that's a bit odd ... you definitely aren't a woman and you aren't strictly speaking a man either, but you are free to compete in the open competition with the men. Good luck."

Competing with the men needs to be the default ... unless you lack a y-chromosome. But of course, left-wing politics doesn't like that. They think we are all the same. It collides with their weird world view. So they insist we test on hormone levels instead, knowing full well that isn't the only advantage men have over women. It is the politics that is rotten.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 02:30:12 PM by Toddler Thork »
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Offline rooster

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #87 on: June 08, 2021, 03:36:41 PM »
  • Abolish gender segregation in sport, but establish a tiered system where athletes compete against people of similar physical stature to them, regardless of sex or gender.
While reading through articles about trans athletes, I saw this one suggested a couple times. It's not a bad idea, there are already weight divisions for some sports. I imagine for things like track it would still be largely gender segregated. But if the requirements are technically based on physical merit then you could still have overlap and it would seem less cruel to trans athletes.

Also, we're really over looking team sports here: low risk of injury (outside of American football) and based on team strength rather than individuals. I played on a mixed gender soccer team for a season and it was fine. I mean, our team was shit but that's because we had two guys who show-boated the entire time and never actually played as part of a team. Me and another guy even collided and went down but I didn't break any oh so fragile feminine bones under him or anything.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 03:44:20 PM by rooster »

Offline Action80

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #88 on: June 08, 2021, 03:48:09 PM »
That clearly does not state trans kids are banned from playing sports.
Ah, I assume you're suggesting they play sports on the team they don't identify with. Neat.
How you identify is irrelevant.

If I suddenly show up demanding a senior citizen discount at my local restaurant because I feel 65 years old, they are under no obligation to cater to my feelings because the reality is I am not 65 years old despite my feelings.

How does this fact escape you?

You should discuss this with doctors. The medical professionals have been studying transgendered people for 100+ years and the consensus is that your characterization is incorrect. Despite the protests against acting on feelings, you, Thork and Tom have been making emotional pleas draped in post hoc  rationalizations.
I have discussed it with doctors. They simply want to push more pills.

Still doesn't change the fact that I am not 65 years old.

You advocate listening to drug dealers for sound advice of any sort?

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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #89 on: June 08, 2021, 04:04:19 PM »
Where no advantage is conferred, we already mix the sexes. Horse riding for example has no men's and women's. They compete on an equal footing.

However ... there are sports at a first glance you'd expect men and women to be equal at. Snooker is one. I mean, that's not strength or stamina based. Its all about skill and hand eye co-ordination. And yet women do not stand a chance against the men.

Watch the video below. In it ... snooker supremo Ronnie O'Sullivan plays the current reigning female world champion.


He laid a 147 on her in the opening frame!

No woman has ever hit a 147 in the history of the game. And there at an exhibition he just smokes her. She has never ever faced firepower like that in her career.

That women in the video is the greatest female player ever and has been female world champion 12 times!

Her highest ever break is 118. She has only ever hit 2 century breaks in her life. How can she possibly compete against a guy that just dropped a 147 in an exhibition and who has made over 1000 century breaks over his career?

If she were to compete against men, she wouldn't even be in the top 10,000. In other words there would be no women's professional snooker if you mixed the sexes. No women would ever qualify for a tournament. So ... if a half decent male snooker player decides to identify as a woman ... do you think a drop in testosterone is going to make it fair?

It is the exact same story with darts. You'd expect parity. The average for the top female darts player this year for women is Anca Zijlstra averaging 88.41 and it s a huge drop off to second place where a few ladies average around 82ish per 3 darts. The top guy this year is averaging 123.4. It isn't remotely close.

No tiered structure you could imagine is going to give women an equal footing. It is not just about height, weight or hormones. There are so many differences and they are not addressed during sex change operations. They don't make you terrible at snooker when they try to turn you into a woman, nor do they make you terrible at darts and nor do they make you terrible at driving. ... They cannot make you a woman. Only a pale imitation that is pretty unconvincing.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 04:06:48 PM by Toddler Thork »
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Offline xasop

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #90 on: June 08, 2021, 04:09:39 PM »
Also, we're really over looking team sports here: low risk of injury (outside of American football) and based on team strength rather than individuals. I played on a mixed gender soccer team for a season and it was fine. I mean, our team was shit but that's because we had two guys who show-boated the entire time and never actually played as part of a team. Me and another guy even collided and went down but I didn't break any oh so fragile feminine bones under him or anything.
That may be the case most of the time, but given how biased public perception of gender-based violence is against men, I really wouldn't want to be the man who bumps into a woman and risks an accusation of assault. An accusation of being unreasonably physical from another man is far less damaging than an accusation from a woman. Until we fix that, I wouldn't be surprised if men don't want to be in mixed-gender teams with women they don't know well.
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol

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Offline rooster

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #91 on: June 08, 2021, 04:15:06 PM »
That may be the case most of the time, but given how biased public perception of gender-based violence is against men, I really wouldn't want to be the man who bumps into a woman and risks an accusation of assault. An accusation of being unreasonably physical from another man is far less damaging than an accusation from a woman. Until we fix that, I wouldn't be surprised if men don't want to be in mixed-gender teams with women they don't know well.
In team sports it's usually pretty clear what happened. If someone is unnecessarily aggressive they're already warned/removed from the game. I don't think what you're suggesting would be a rampant problem.

Offline Action80

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #92 on: June 08, 2021, 04:18:54 PM »
Where no advantage is conferred, we already mix the sexes. Horse riding for example has no men's and women's. They compete on an equal footing.

However ... there are sports at a first glance you'd expect men and women to be equal at. Snooker is one. I mean, that's not strength or stamina based. Its all about skill and hand eye co-ordination. And yet women do not stand a chance against the men.

Watch the video below. In it ... snooker supremo Ronnie O'Sullivan plays the current reigning female world champion.


He laid a 147 on her in the opening frame!

No woman has ever hit a 147 in the history of the game. And there at an exhibition he just smokes her. She has never ever faced firepower like that in her career.

That women in the video is the greatest female player ever and has been female world champion 12 times!

Her highest ever break is 118. She has only ever hit 2 century breaks in her life. How can she possibly compete against a guy that just dropped a 147 in an exhibition and who has made over 1000 century breaks over his career?

If she were to compete against men, she wouldn't even be in the top 10,000. In other words there would be no women's professional snooker if you mixed the sexes. No women would ever qualify for a tournament. So ... if a half decent male snooker player decides to identify as a woman ... do you think a drop in testosterone is going to make it fair?

It is the exact same story with darts. You'd expect parity. The average for the top female darts player this year for women is Anca Zijlstra averaging 88.41 and it s a huge drop off to second place where a few ladies average around 82ish per 3 darts. The top guy this year is averaging 123.4. It isn't remotely close.

No tiered structure you could imagine is going to give women an equal footing. It is not just about height, weight or hormones. There are so many differences and they are not addressed during sex change operations. They don't make you terrible at snooker when they try to turn you into a woman, nor do they make you terrible at darts and nor do they make you terrible at driving. ... They cannot make you a woman. Only a pale imitation that is pretty unconvincing.
That was goddamn amazing!

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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #93 on: June 08, 2021, 04:19:45 PM »
An accusation of being unreasonably physical from another man is far less damaging than an accusation from a woman. Until we fix that
It doesn't need fixing you leftist weirdo!  >o<

Men and woman are not the same and we shouldn't be changing perceptions that it is ok to hurt women. What is wrong with you? Liberalism is a horrible brain disease. I wish there was a cure for you.


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Offline Pongo

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #94 on: June 08, 2021, 04:22:02 PM »
It is the exact same story with darts. You'd expect parity.

There could be parity in abilities across gender AND a large discrepancy between the top preforming peoples in a task between genders.

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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #95 on: June 08, 2021, 04:33:46 PM »
It is the exact same story with darts. You'd expect parity.

There could be parity in abilities across gender AND a large discrepancy between the top preforming peoples in a task between genders.
Its not just strength and stamina. Transgender apologists try to always boil sport differences down to this to make it seem like the differences are surmountable. But they are not. There are far more differences. Women cannot compete at shooting sports for example. Nor racing driving. But they absolutely can compete in music. A pianist can be every bit as good female as male. You'd need to work out what the difference between playing an instrument and playing snooker is.

Below is a young woman playing the guitar. I'd wager there aren't many men on earth that can play like her.
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Offline Pongo

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #96 on: June 08, 2021, 04:39:11 PM »
It is the exact same story with darts. You'd expect parity.

There could be parity in abilities across gender AND a large discrepancy between the top preforming peoples in a task between genders.
Its not just strength and stamina. Transgender apologists try to always boil sport differences down to this to make it seem like the differences are surmountable. But they are not. There are far more differences. Women cannot compete at shooting sports for example. Nor racing driving. But they absolutely can compete in music. A pianist can be every bit as good female as male. You'd need to work out what the difference between playing an instrument and playing snooker is.

Below is a young woman playing the guitar. I'd wager there aren't many men on earth that can play like her.


There is a chance, albeit small, that you may be neglecting to consider the size of the populations of the competitors when determining absolute gender ability. But probably not.

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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #97 on: June 08, 2021, 04:42:44 PM »
I just feel segregation in sport isn't something that is broken and therefore it isn't something we should try to fix. But 'progressives' love to make change for the sake of change and to hell with the consequences for other people. They think it helps them get closer to Utopia.
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Offline Pongo

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #98 on: June 08, 2021, 05:09:19 PM »
I just feel segregation in sport isn't something that is broken and therefore it isn't something we should try to fix. But 'progressives' love to make change for the sake of change and to hell with the consequences for other people. They think it helps them get closer to Utopia.

I think you're overthinking it. I think it's the difference between group desires versus individual desires. Does mixing genders in sports make them unfair? Yes. Does allowing transgender people to play a sport as the gender they see themselves give them a more normalized life? Yes.

The two are however, and unfortunately, at odds. You cannot allow some individuals to pick where they want to compete and retain fairness. In the same way that you cannot disallow some individuals from competing and preserving individual happiness. So the question really boils down what do we care about more? Do we care more about the fairness of a sport or the happiness of the individual?

Both sides have merit, I can see that. However, non-professional level sports, in my opinion, should be more focused on fun and health than on striving to achieve a level of fairness at the cost of individual happiness. And to be clear, this isn't a perfect solution. In many ways it's the lesser of two evils. What about the happiness of the people who get outperformed by a transgender athlete? What happens at a professional level? These questions and more do not have clean answers, but one positive is that we live in a society where we get to be outraged by these issues. Society has not yet accepted an answer to these questions, but lets not forget that our fathers before us didn't even have the opportunity for discourse.

We should all thank Thork, for without his contrived bigotry we wouldn't be having the discussion that moves society closer to a solution. So, however small that step may be and whatever direction it takes us, thank you, Thork.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #99 on: June 08, 2021, 05:29:54 PM »
Even transwoman activist Caitlyn Jenner, a former Olympic champion, says that transexuals shouldn't be in girl's sports.

 https://www.tmz.com/2021/05/01/caitlyn-jenner-trans-girls-ban-sports-biological-boys/

Quote
CAITLYN JENNER - If You're a Biological Boy ... YOU SHOULDN'T BE IN GIRLS' SPORTS

EXCLUSIVE
5/2/2021 7:11 AM PT
TMZ.com

Caitlyn Jenner has a take on trans athletes you might not expect -- namely, if you're born as a biological boy, you shouldn't be allowed to compete in girls' sports ... at least while you're still in school, anyway.

We got the California gubernatorial hopeful Saturday in Malibu, and she weighed in on her first big political issue as she takes center stage in her run for Gavin Newsom's job -- telling TMZ she doesn't support trans girls born as boys participating in all-female school sports.

Yeah, we know ... it's a pretty interesting stance -- especially coming from Caitlyn ... who of course, is a trans woman herself AND a former Olympic champion. But, check out her rationale ... she chalks it up to fairness and protecting the integrity of girls' sports.

« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 05:37:11 PM by Tom Bishop »