2041

Arts & Entertainment / Re: The Elder Scrolls Online

« on: July 27, 2014, 02:36:32 AM »

Second of all, I have indeed played Morrowind for quite a while, and I do like it overall.  I'm just criticizing the beginning of the game as not being a very interesting introduction into the world and story, partially because it tells rather than shows, but mainly because the Empire has already been (to an extent) making arrangements and planning out your path from the very start, which I find to be a very undermining element in a RPG.  NO U

As someone who has never played an Elder Scrolls game before Morrowind, this is total and utter codswallop. Caius encourages you to go out and seek work. Granted, I only have experience with one of the alternatives he suggests, but I assume any other alternative would have you going out and exploring the world just as running errands for the Mages' Guild does.

If by "shows" you mean "waves in your face", then no, it doesn't. But it does encourage you to go out and see the world for yourself.

2042

Arts & Entertainment / Re: The Elder Scrolls Online

« on: July 26, 2014, 11:34:31 AM »

If you still don't like the game after giving it a reasonable chance you can return and I'll tell you why you were wrong.

I already hate this game. It doesn't even have basic functionality like the ability to knock your opponent over with shells, which Mario Kart has had for decades.

2043

Arts & Entertainment / Re: Frank Zappa 1984 tour 30th anniversary extravaganza

« on: July 26, 2014, 06:45:19 AM »

Tuesday, 24 July, 1984
Open Air Theatre, San Diego State University, San Diego, California

Secret words: matches, tunnel


Set lists

Main show

Zoot Allures
Tinsel Town Rebellion
Oh No
Trouble Every Day
Penguin in Bondage
Hot Plate Heaven at the Green Hotel
Dumb All Over
The Evil Prince
Be in My Video
Carolina Hard Core Ecstasy
Advance Romance
He's So Gay
Bobby Brown
Keep It Greasey
Honey, Don't You Want a Man Like Me?
Carol You Fool
Chana in De Bushwop
Kreega Bondola
Why Don't You Like Me?

First encore

The Closer You Are
Johnny Darling
No No Cherry

Second encore

Dancin' Fool
Cosmik Debris


Review

The first concert away from home, so to speak, is a mostly routine show with a light sprinkling of secret words. The tape it's committed to isn't bad, but is very bass-heavy, which has the result of muffling the rest of the sound. It would probably be more listenable with a little EQ tweaking, although I prefer to listen to these tapes raw when reviewing.

Before playing anything, Frank decides to warn the audience that the show contains "very strong language and things having to do with body functions". He asks any members of the audience for whom that material "makes you vomit, or makes you think that you just might go to Hell" to leave, "because we wouldn't want to harm you".

During the band intros, Frank introduces Ray as "a legend in his own time", because "if you ever have to use the toilet after Ray White -- where's that book(?) of matches -- take these with you!" And thus, the secret word for tonight is born. Many of the "matches" references tonight are followed up with "tunnel" references, although I don't quite understand the connection, so I've listed both as secret words.

From here onwards, the show proceeds mostly uneventfully, with mostly average performances and average guitar solos. These performances would likely be easier to appreciate on a clearer tape, because as it is, Scott's groovy bass lines dominate all else and make it difficult to make out the finer details of everyone else's performances.

The show starts to pick up in Be in My Video, where Frank turns the last line into "and then we'll dance your matches", following it up with "mercy flush" just before the segue into Carolina. Advance Romance also has its fair share of secret word abuse, with Ike throwing in a few "matches" references during the "she might do you too" section before the guitar solo, a part of the song that would be a frequent breeding ground for secret words as the tour goes on.

The fourth verse of Advance Romance turns "he opened three of his eyes" into "he opened three of his matches", but after that, the band goes back to straight renditions for while. Frank has some silly fun with the "uh-oh" line in He's So Gay and begins changing up the rhythm of his lines in the first verse of Bobby Brown, another frequent practice as the tour proceeds. The end of Keep It Greasey brings the first reference to "tunnel" for tonight, with Ike calling in the segue to the next song with "here comes that screamin' tunnel sound again".

Frank is enjoying having fun with his vocal parts tonight, as he rambles on (mostly inaudibly) about Carol meeting another engineer during the last part of Carol You Fool. This keeps up in the second verse of Chana, where Frank has completely changed the second verse into fragmented phrases. It now goes "she has a / and then she looks like / later on she / and it was very difficult to".

The musical highlight of this show, though, comes in Frank's Kreega Bondola solo, where halfway through the band suddenly moves to a shuffle vamp which I find very reminiscent of the '78 arrangement of Suicide Chump. Frank soars over this new accompaniment for a couple of minutes, producing some unusually bluesy improvisation in the midst of an otherwise musically mundane show. This is also a fine taster of the show-to-show variation that would come later in the tour in this solo spot.

It's over all too soon, though, and the band returns to the Kreega head as if nothing out of the ordinary had happened. Then we get another Why Don't You Like Me?, sounding much more solid and enjoyable than it did a week ago.

Frank comes back out for the first encore and begins introducing the next song by way of saying that it's a great American tradition to fall in love during the summer. He gets interrupted at the most amusing possible time during this speech: "love is the driving force of the Universe -- oh, those are the largest underpants we've ever had thrown onto the stage!"

Someone has passed up a note with their underpants, which Frank reads out: "Show us your tits, Frank -- Mary from the bus". Frank obliges, commenting that "somebody is desperate for entertainment out there". The band continues with some mildly amusing banter; Ike says "where's this Mary?", Frank responds with "where's the beef?", and then expertly brings us full circle through the shows secret words ("where's the matches? where's that tunnel?") and into the next song ("where's that B flat that starts this song off?"), at which point the band immediately launches into The Closer You Are.

Aside from Frank finishing the first verse with "Mary from the bus", we then get a surprisingly straight rendition of this tour's '50s medley, but this medley is always enjoyable no matter how uninteresting the rest of the concert. The second encore is equally straight, except for Frank's closing monologue in Dancin' Fool, which includes a reference to Why Don't You Like Me? ("do you come here often, and if so, why are you trying to be a lawyer?") and various other permutations ("love your moustache", "You're Jewish? Do you have any matches?").

This show is mostly routine. Aside from some very rarefied secret word appearances and an interesting deviation in Kreega Bondola, it doesn't have much to offer, and the recording quality isn't spectacular either. Do yourself a favour and look elsewhere.

2044

Technology & Information / Re: Adding an email account to messaging apps

« on: July 25, 2014, 09:12:38 AM »

I still don't understand why we can't just all standardise on XMPP. SMS is so dated.

2045

Arts & Entertainment / Re: Frank Zappa 1984 tour 30th anniversary extravaganza

« on: July 24, 2014, 10:41:00 PM »

Sunday, 22 July, 1984
Palace Theater, Los Angeles, California


Set lists

Main show

The Black Page
Tinsel Town Rebellion
Oh No
Trouble Every Day
Penguin in Bondage
Hot Plate Heaven at the Green Hotel
Dumb All Over
The Evil Prince
Carolina Hard Core Ecstasy
Advance Romance
He's So Gay
Bobby Brown
Keep it Greasey
Honey, Don't You Want a Man Like Me?
Carol You Fool
The Dangerous Kitchen
Chana in De Bushwop
Kreega Bondola
Why Don't You Like Me?

First encore

Stick It Out
Truck Driver Divorce (with George Duke on keyboard)
In France (with George Duke on keyboard and Johnny "Guitar" Watson on lead vocal)
Chunga's Revenge (with Aynsley Dunbar on drums, Denny Walley on slide guitar and Bruce Fowler on trombone and interpretive dancing)


Review

The last of the Palace Theater run that opens the '84 tour is mostly captured on a very clear SBD tape, comparable to last night. From The Black Page through to Hot Plate Heaven, though, there's a fairly poor audience tape instead. Apart from the novelty, this Black Page doesn't have a great solo and isn't captured on the best of recordings, so it doesn't offer too much.

From there, we go through the motions as usual, with the band playing through the same set as on their first show. Trouble and Penguin have decent solos, but it's in Hot Plate Heaven where Frank starts getting nasty, just as the recording cuts to the SBD tape. This is well worth a listen just for the part of the solo after that cut.

The show from here is mostly routine, with good-but-not-great solos. Carolina and Romance strike me as being much tighter performances than last night; these sound much like the more mature official releases on the You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore series than what we've had until now.

The next major point of interest comes at the segue from Carol You Fool into Chana in De Bushwop. Where we normally expect the snazzy piano motif that opens the latter, there comes a moment of silence followed by a few sparse notes. "Uh oh... fix that microphone!" says Frank. "Has science failed us?"

Frank then launches into an impromptu Dangerous Kitchen, which is much better performed than the first one a few nights ago. This is, again, much more like the official release on You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore, vol. 1, and a very enjoyable variation in what is otherwise a very routine set list.

After having so much fun, Frank can barely remember the words to Chana, making light of this fact by instead singing disjointed words and phrases from the lyrics, and interjecting with "the dangerous kitchen" at one point (though sadly, we don't get a reprise of the whole thing).

Kreega Bondola is as we've come to expect, with good-but-not-great solos from Alan and Frank. To round things off, we get Why Don't You Like Me?, sounding clearer and less grating than the usual performances. All in all, this set list encompasses all the pieces we've come to expect from this band so far, but with much better performances.

That all changes once we reach the encore. This encore has four songs this band hasn't yet played, and five special guest performers, of which four are former band members. Frank describes this as a "Sunday night jam session", and it has the sound of one too. This is some of the most unashamedly unpolished Zappa material you'll ever hear, but it's worth hearing for the good bits.

Stick It Out starts out more or less as the disco version on Joe's Garage, except that it skips straight past the German section and into the English lyrics for this tour. Then the band does one of the most incredible segues I've heard yet this tour; they go straight from the "don't get no jizz upon that sofa" part into a disco version of Truck Driver Divorce, complete with My Sharona bass line. Frank makes reference to the original Sofa suite from whcih Stick It Out is extracted during this version, twisting lyrics such as "oh, go ride the pig". We also get a reprise of the "dun-dun-du-du-du-du-dun-dun" chant from Stick It Out in the lead-up to the guitar solo.

Tonight's guitar solo in Stick It Out starts out fairly mediocre, but after about a minute, Frank stops playing and introduces George Duke. For a while, George just plays rhythm and Frank produces the usual Truck Driver masterpiece over the top, but then Frank stops again and George gets the spotlight. Suddenly, it feels like '74 all over again. It's not one of George's best solos, but it is unmistakably a George solo, and it's awesome to hear again.

After a bit more jamming between Frank and George, Frank announces the second special guest of the night. Johnny "Guitar" Watson comes out to reprise his lead vocal on In France from Them or Us, and to be honest, this sounds like a poorly-rehearsed but fun version of the piece. The band seems to be falling apart half the time; Johnny plays a decent solo on Frank's guitar, but nothing spectacular; and on returning from the guitar to the microphone, he manages to skip a few bars of lyrics and land straight in the IV chord of this 12-bar blues, which the band quickly corrects for.

All things considered, the most noteworthy thing about this version of In France is that it is the last time that Frank Zappa, Napoleon Murphy Brock and George Duke would ever appear on stage together. Back in '74 they went out with a bang; now, for the last time, they go out with a whimper.

Then George and Johnny leave, and Frank invites Aynsley Dunbar (of the '70/'71 bands), Denny Walley (of the '75/'79 bands) and Bruce Fowler (who toured with Frank on and off between '72 and '75) on stage for a rendition of Chunga's Revenge. Through the first head, it's just interesting to hear Aynsley playing Chad's electronic drum kit. It feels surreal after being familiar with his furious exploits on acoustic drums more than a decade prior, to hear the constrained enthusiasm on these sample pads.

Then the first solo starts, and it's Denny on slide guitar. This is definitely the low point of the show. For several minutes, Denny manages to repeat the same two or three motifs over and over again, never taking the solo anywhere. This is a million miles away from the Denny we knew in the '70s, and I'd like to think he was just having a bad night, because I know that he has done (and hopefully still could do) much better.

Denny steps down, and up comes Bruce, and suddenly the whole feel of this encore set changes. Bruce shows us what Chunga's Revenge is supposed to sound like, with his usual trombone majesty. This is a Bruce who has lost none of his brilliance since the Roxy era, and it's little wonder that Frank would invite him to join the '88 band four years later after this performance.

Bruce's performance is so inspiring that Frank deems it worthwhile to deviate from the plodding rock vamp through various other styles, including jazz and reggae vamps, which Bruce adapts to without a problem. Then Frank announces that Bruce is not only known for his ability to play high notes on the trombone ("which don't even exist there"), but that he can also do interpretive dancing.

And so, tonight we get an "interpretive dance-off" between Bruce Fowler and Alan Zavod, as the band returns to the usual Chunga's Revenge vamp and Frank picks up his guitar to round off the affair. Naturally, I can't see how good their dancing is on this audio-only tape, but the guitar solo is pretty good, and Napoleon even gets up to some sax madness in the background.

Frank announces couples one through seven, a usual feature of his dance contests, before directing the band to return to the head. Again, without video it's difficult to know exactly what's going on, but presumably he's inviting people from the audience to dance to the final head of Chunga's Revenge. Then Frank makes the outro quick, tells the audience they'll be in Irvine next week (they were going to be, but that show eventually got cancelled), and they leave the Palace Theater for the last time.

This is a very unique show, consisting of an extremely routine main set and an extremely atypical encore. All things considered, while it has its low points, I couldn't think of a better way to round off the Palace Theater run.

The next show is yesterday, and I've been slacking a bit due to being sick. I'll hopefully have yesterday and today's reviews up within the next 24 hours or so.

2046

Suggestions & Concerns / Re: On the notion of FES reunification

« on: July 23, 2014, 10:01:17 PM »

It's been quite some time, and the overwhelming consensus seems to be a "yes" vote to reunification. I'll post a proper announcement in Announcements when I'm not on my phone, but just so you're aware, we'll be discussing the details with Daniel directly. As has always been the policy on this forum, the community will be consulted on any matters amounting to more than technical details.

2047

Arts & Entertainment / Re: The Elder Scrolls Online

« on: July 23, 2014, 09:49:42 PM »

I haven't found anything in Morrowind particularly difficult. Challenging, yes, but not difficult. The learning curve is what keeps things interesting, and I've been playing the whole thing on default difficulty.

It may be worth noting that this is my first time playing an Elder Scrolls game.

I've recently found that the most effective way to make money is to kill shopkeepers and loot their wares, which has made me consider leaving the Mages Guild and joining the Thieves Guild, or maybe even the Dark Brotherhood. The Mages Guild has recently given me two assignments involving potential assassination, one of which stands to be very profitable, so we'll see.

2048

Suggestions & Concerns / Re: On the notion of FES reunification

« on: July 21, 2014, 09:39:33 PM »

I prefer this forum. I like the changes that were made at the type of people who post here.
My worry is that those who help a lot here would get side lined and the community built here will be diluted.
I do not see a need to merge back. Is this forum not good as it is? I do t think I'd like to converse with the bottom feeders that lurk the other site. At least the community here is a mature one (well as far as forums go) and is welcoming.

As I've stated before, the forum will continue to be run as this one is now. There would naturally be some merger of this forum community with the other one, but none of the people who post here will be forced to leave, and the administration here will remain.

2049

Arts & Entertainment / Re: Frank Zappa 1984 tour 30th anniversary extravaganza

« on: July 21, 2014, 05:10:38 PM »

Saturday, 21 July, 1984
Palace Theater, Los Angeles, California


Set lists

Main show

Treacherous Cretins
Montana
Easy Meat
Carolina Hard Core Ecstasy
Advance Romance
He's So Gay
Bobby Brown
Keep It Greasey
Honey, Don't You Want a Man Like Me?
Carol You Fool
Chana in De Bushwop
Kreega Bondola
Tinsel Town Rebellion
Oh No
Trouble Every Day
Penguin in Bondage
Hot Plate Heaven at the Green Hotel

First encore

Jungle Boogie
The Closer You Are
Johnny Darling
No No Cherry


Review

This is the first SBD tape of the tour, with vocals mixed into the foreground and Frank's guitar so loud in the mix that it dominates everything else. This makes it a double-edged sword: when the band hits the mark, this tape captures their performance in brilliant clarity; but when they fuck up, that's crystal clear too.

Tonight's set starts out with three new '84 arrangements, which start out cheesy and just get cheesier. Treacherous Cretins comes with a nice guitar solo, which goes some way to make up for this blasphemous arrangement that sounds like a parody of itself, but Montana and Easy Meat don't have that luxury. Easy Meat is especially horrifying, with vocals all over the formerly instrumental sections and in between lyrics, as well as the unforgivable insertion of "weasly meat" in places. Blegh.

Then we get onto the good stuff. Carolina and Advance are riddled with clearly audible mistakes on this tape, but at least they aren't complete abominations. After that, we're treated to the usual set list, which is a lot more solid as the band has played most of these tunes every night so far. Also, something which I forgot to mention previously, the girl's favourite group in Honey, Don't You Want a Man Like Me? has changed from Helen Reddy to Echo and the Bunnymen for this tour.

Carol You Fool is where the clarity on this tape really shines. For the first time, the incredible vocal ensemble in this band really gets to strut their stuff, with all five vocal parts clearly audible on this recording. The same is true for Chana, where Frank also begins to get silly with his lines, especially "where she go?", where he drags out the last "o" sound in a very cheesy, '84-ish style. At the end, he interjects with "take me with you!", sounding very similar to the end of Debra Kadabra on Bongo Fury, and signalling the segue into Kreega Bondola.

Maybe it's just the clarity on this tape, but tonight's Kreega really rocks! Both Alan and Frank are on the ball with their solos, with a slow build-up to a magnificent crescendo as the band segues back into the head, and both Alan's keyboard and Frank's guitar are way up front in this mix, making it that much more appreciable.

The numerous silly quotes from '80s pop hits in Tinsel also gain new life on this tape, and Tinsel itself becomes a new source of silliness, with Frank interjecting "bang your head" numerous times in the last verse. I'm not sure what this is in reference to, but it's amusing nevertheless. Finally, after the Woody Woodpecker theme, he calls for the segue into Oh No with "make it bleed, now".

The awfulness of this arrangement of Oh No is very easily appreciated on this tape, as well as the fact that this band is still finding its feet in Trouble Every Day. Frank makes a reference to the Olympics taking place in LA at the time in the latter: "Well I'm about to get sick / From watching my TV / Been checkin' out the Olympics / Until my eyeballs fail to see".

Trouble and Penguin fail to produce noteworthy solos tonight, but Frank more than makes up for it with an absolutely brilliant effort in Hotel. One of the best solos of the tour so far, and definitely my favourite in this show, but still not as great as they would get later in the tour.

After Frank comes back out onto the stage, he reads out a note from someone in the audience, requesting that he direct his "session men" in some improvisations "like in the days of yore". The writer boldly claims that "even you have to be sick of Dancin' Fool by now" and signs the note as "A Concerned American".

Frank decides to put it to a vote: "Unusual as it may be in America, we're actually going to get the real democratic process working here". It ends up being a tie, at least in terms of how loudly the audience expresses its preferences, so Frank decides to "mix and match".

What comes out of the improvisation is three minutes of somewhat interesting vamps and assorted weird noises. Whatever gripes anyone may have with the '84 band, I find this to be a much more worthwhile use of encore time than Dancin' Fool. Towards the end, Frank directs Ray to do something, and Ray begins singing Jungle Boogie, with the rest of the band quickly joining him; hence its inclusion in the set list above as "Jungle Boogie".

Then, to satisfy the other half of the audience who wanted the usual material, we get a nice '50s medley to round things off. I'm not actually sure if this was the last encore or not, since this tape cuts out during No No Cherry, but it is most enjoyable while it lasts.

This tape can be quite inconsistent, with volume fluctuations at times and a somewhat unbalanced mix. When it's good, it's really good, and when it's bad, it's still tolerable. I'm not sure I'd recommend this show as a whole, simply because it's still so early in the tour and a lot of mistakes are made, but it's one of the more enjoyable shows thus far.


Samples

Finally, to appease the people on IRC who wanted to hear some of what's going on, here are a couple of samples of my favourite bits of this show:

Carol You Fool
Jungle Boogie

I've deliberately not included any guitar solos, because they aren't up to a very high standard this early in the tour. On the other hand, Napoleon would soon be gone, so this early version of Carol You Fool is a rare opportunity to hear it with the original vocal harmonies of this band.

2050

Arts & Entertainment / Re: Frank Zappa 1984 tour 30th anniversary extravaganza

« on: July 21, 2014, 02:44:10 PM »

Friday, 20 July, 1984
Palace Theater, Los Angeles, California


Set lists

Main show

Zoot Allures
City of Tiny Lights
You Are What You Is
He's So Gay
Bobby Brown
Honey, Don't You Want a Man Like Me?
Carol You Fool
Panty Rap (incl. Happy Birthday)
Chana in De Bushwop
Kreega Bondola
Tinsel Town Rebellion
Oh No
Trouble Every Day
Hot Plate Heaven at the Green Hotel
Dumb All Over
The Evil Prince

First encore

Dancin' Fool
Cosmik Debris

Second encore

Sharleena (with Dweezil Zappa on guitar)

Third encore

Watermelon in Easter Hay


Review

Apologies for being late with this one, I've come down with a cold and been sleeping a lot.

This tape sounds quite muffled, but otherwise very clear, and after a few minutes one gets accustomed to the tone and it's a very pleasant listen. This is also a very solid show, performance-wise; aside from a few Jungle Boogie references early on, it lacks the slightly unhinged feel of last night's show, but what it lacks in fun it makes up for in consistency.

Zoot Allures has a good solo, but nothing spectacular. After that, Frank drops the first City of Tiny Lights of the tour on us. I find the '84 arrangement of this song quite bland compared to '82; it's played a little faster, but otherwise it's quite similar aside from the last verse, which is played the same way every night and lacks the improvised Frank-conducted insanity that characterised the prior tour's arrangement.

Arranging deficiencies aside, Frank delivers a kickass guitar solo in this City, and one worthy of this song's established place as a vehicle for kickass solos. Then we get the first You Are What You Is of the tour, which feels somewhat misplaced outside the context of its usual medley, but enjoyable nevertheless for Ray's powerful lead vocal during the extended outro, which appears more or less as on the album version.

We're then dropped back into the same set list as we've come to know from the past few nights, and these are some very solid performances of by now familiar songs. The first noteworthy piece of real estate Frank destroys is the end of Chana, where he blurts out "where's the underpants?" during the final chorus. He then instructs the band to continue vamping past the usual ending point as he engages the audience in some banter and underwear collection.

After conducting the band into a chorus of Happy Birthday directed at a member of the audience, Frank tells the story of what happened to the underpants they collected on the road in 1981. Apparently, an artist named Emily Schultz made a piece of art out of the pants, which she demanded not be washed, and had been displaying the work at varous places around America since then.

We get the usual amusement out of tonight's Panty Rap, with Frank commenting on the fact that some of the members of the band in '81 liked to smell the underpants that were collected, and claiming that "Alan is an Australian, and they actually do these things down there". He gives Alan a pair of underpants and asks him to "rate the bouquet", which Alan summarises as "Bondi Beach forevah!" Frank translates this as "a slight tinge of squid", and suggests immediate hospitalisation.

Frank introduces Chana tonight as having its lyrics "suggested, if not partly composed or decomposed" by his daughter Diva, who is supposedly in the audience tonight. We then get a straight performance of Chana and a solid effort at Kreega, although part of the keyboard solo in the latter is missing from this tape.

Kreega segues directly into Tinsel tonight, which is a pleasure to hear, both because it means Why Don't You Like Me? is gone, and because it's a very good segue that was commonplace in '82 set list. The remainder of the set list proceeds mostly as last night, sans the pervasive Jungle Boogie references. As usual, the Trouble Penguin Hotel trio produces some nice guitar work from Frank, including a masterfully crafted Big Swifty quote to finish off in Hotel.

Over the usual reggae vamp at the end of Dumb All Over, Frank seems disappointed with the lack of underpants he's received, accusing Hollywood of having turned conservative in the '80s and summing up his position as "y'all be playing it too safe". By way of announcing the segue into The Evil Prince, he then adds "well, we'll remedy that". This tape cuts out during the solo in The Evil Prince, so we may never know if tonight's crowd was indeed remedied by this majestic composition.

The first encore is one of the most boring pairings of crowd-pleasers ever committed to audience-recorded tape. Dancin' Fool and Cosmik Debris don't even have the lightest sprinkling of secret words tonight, nor does Debris have a worthwhile guitar solo, making these eight minutes a complete waste of magnetised plastic.

As if to make up for that deficiency, Frank comes out for the second encore to say that their next album will feature a reggae remake of Sharleena, with Dweezil on guitar. He then announces that tonight, Dweezil is going to join them on stage to play guitar on Sharleena, and as Dweezil solos go, this isn't bad. As per normal for Dweezil, it contains a lot of incredible techniques without much substance, but it's not entirely uninteresting. Also, this year's Sharleena has completely lost its second verse, expediting the approach to the guitar solo, and a generally good move on Frank's part.

Finally, Frank comes back for a third encore to finish things off and delivers unto us the beautifully composed Watermelon in Easter Hay. This song definitely lost something in the '80s and never quite managed to recapture the magnificence committed to tape on Joe's Garage, but it still has some charm left in it, and it makes a fantastic show closer.

This is a solid performance with a guest appearance from Dweezil, if you're into that. Otherwise, there's not much noteworthy about this concert, and I wouldn't recommend it unless you're already familiar with this tour and want more.

2051

Suggestions & Concerns / Re: I'd like to make the Flat Earth Society an official society

« on: July 20, 2014, 07:09:56 PM »

I'd be all for it, although I'm likely to have my hands full in the near future if reunification happens (as if my life wasn't busy enough already right now), so I wouldn't be involved much.

2052

Suggestions & Concerns / Re: On the notion of FES reunification

« on: July 20, 2014, 06:30:12 PM »

I was holding back from posting in this thread initially because I felt my presence might be counterproductive.  That doesn't seem to be the case, though, so, here I am.  Hi.

Hi, and welcome!

It's late here now and most of tomorrow will be spent traveling home.  I'll check in again when I'm settled back in HK.  I'm sure we'll be able to hammer out something that's acceptable for both sides.

Sounds good, have a safe journey. As I previously stated, I want to wait at least 48 hours for people to have their say, of which there are now 24 remaining. After that point, hopefully we can iron out the details.

2053

Suggestions & Concerns / Re: And now, the moment we've all been waiting for...

« on: July 20, 2014, 06:18:02 PM »

Well, you impeach two members at a time, allow them to be replaced, impeach the next two members, allow them to be replaced, then impeach the last member.

That seems cumbersome, and the remaining members can simply veto nominations of any replacement candidates they don't like. If there are no suitable replacements, there's nothing in the constitution preventing them from vetoing all nominations, keeping the council at 3 members indefinitely.

I don't want to allow there to be a two person council, because that would be completely pointless. If the community agrees with you I can add in a clause for replacement of the entire council at once via an interim election the council has no control over.

That would be an improvement, in my opinion. I'll shut up now and let the community voice their opinions.

I should add in that an impeached member cannot run again. Otherwise impeachment of a corrupt council would be tiresome, to say the least.

Perhaps a time limit on such a clause would be appropriate. If a member is impeached and wants to run again five years later, they should be allowed a second chance to prove themselves.

2054

Technology & Information / Re: Facebook fraud

« on: July 20, 2014, 06:10:14 PM »

Terrible thread.

I disagree. This is the best one-sided debate I've read since sokarul was last around.

2055

Suggestions & Concerns / Re: And now, the moment we've all been waiting for...

« on: July 20, 2014, 06:04:26 PM »

The council does answer to the community. The community puts the council into office and can remove the council from office.

Except that you also have this:

The Zetetic Council may not be allowed to, at any time, have fewer than three members.

What happens if the community tries to impeach three or more Council members at once? The constitution draft does not specify. Either the Council will end up with two members, violating this clause, or the community's impeachment of the third member will be void, preventing the community from impeaching a corrupt Council.

2056

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Drugs should be legal.

« on: July 20, 2014, 07:39:43 AM »

Yeah, that article makes far too much sense to be of any interest to politicians.

2057

Suggestions & Concerns / Re: And now, the moment we've all been waiting for...

« on: July 20, 2014, 06:16:02 AM »

I'm not sure what you're talking about. It's stated pretty plainly in the document that the council has nothing to do with the website.

Except for this bit:

Administrators may be removed [...] by a four fifths vote of the Zetetic Council. Replacements will be voted on by all official members.

If you're going to legislate yourself into a position of influence over the forum, this constitution must be voted on by the entire community, not just the Zetetic Council. Otherwise, we will not recognise it, and any attempt to vote out an administrator will simply be ignored.

I also find this concerning:

Nominees may be selected by any member, although the Council holds the right to veto nominations for any reason. The council also has the right to revoke voting privileges from a member.

This allows a hypothetical corrupt Council to rig elections lawfully and openly. Nobody outside the Council could do anything about it, because:

After ratification, this constitution may only be altered by the process of amendment. A Zetetic Council member must put forward the change to the council. Following this, the change must be agreed upon by a four fifths majority.

If this is going to work, the Zetetic Council needs to answer to the community, not the other way around.

2058

Suggestions & Concerns / Re: On the notion of FES reunification

« on: July 20, 2014, 06:03:05 AM »

Thanks for staying on track and having a productive discussion, everyone. I'm going to wait at least 48 hours from the date of the OP, just to make sure everyone gets time to have their say, before proceeding any further.

For the people who posted early on, feel free to present your thoughts on pizaaplanet's revised statement.

2059

Suggestions & Concerns / Re: On the notion of FES reunification

« on: July 19, 2014, 06:55:03 PM »

Thanks for the opinions thus far. I'm only individually addressing them where clarification is needed at this point, but I appreciate all of your involvement.

We have already received 3 of the 5 Zetetic council opinions. Therefore it is the Council's position that we do not want Shenton as leader of the flat earth society.

Acknowledged, but for the record, the Zetetic Council has only as much influence in this matter as its constituent members. The Council was elected by the community, but as it has no constitution to set election terms, there is no way for the community to speak through the Council. This thread is intended to solicit opinions from the community.

How would this work?

Would this forum cease to exist? Because I don't like that.

All of your posts here will continue to exist. I don't know if they will be merged somehow into the other forum, or vice versa; that counts as a detail that can be discussed later. All I can say at this early stage is that we will not make any decision that compromises our primary goal of servicing the community, and forcing everyone to up and leave this forum and all their posting history doesn't qualify as servicing the community in my book.

2060

Suggestions & Concerns / On the notion of FES reunification

« on: July 19, 2014, 06:37:29 PM »

As has been alluded to in another thread, the possibility of a reunification between this Society and theflatearthsociety.org is now open for discussion from the community. Given the uncertainty evident in that thread as to what exactly a "reunification" entails, I want to lay down specifics and allow people to comment on them.

Let me say, first and foremost, that this site exists and always has existed to serve its members. I don't have a political agenda beyond doing what is right by you guys; I've taken the lead in running this website because I sincerely believe I am best qualified, not because I want to be in charge. I will happily work with the other website or independently of them, whichever best suits the community's needs.

It is therefore imperative that everyone has a chance to express an informed opinion prior to a major organisational change, such as a reunification.


As it stands, reunification would likely entail Daniel assuming leadership of the unified Society, while we (myself and pizaaplanet) assume control of the unified online community. Daniel's purview would include things such as the Flat Earth Library and press releases; ours would include things such as the forum and the wiki.

There are details that would need to be worked out, but from a technical perspective, I know very well what concessions I would need from any reunification agreement in order to continue managing the forum as well as it is currently. Rest assured that no reunification will be agreed to that compromises our ability to support the community; any discussion or debate of specific details now would be premature and futile.


What I would like people's opinions on is whether or not an agreement of this sort is, in principle, something the community wants to pursue. If the answer is yes, then we can figure out the details later. If it is no, then there are no details to work out. Please try to keep to the topic; it's much simpler to answer one question at a time than to figure out all the tiny details at once.

To summarise, please consider whether you would like to see a reunion where Daniel heads the Society and myself and pizaaplanet head the online community (forum and wiki). If no, but you would be open to a reunion under different broad terms, please say so. If you would like to discuss something not covered by that, please create a new thread.

Of course, if anything I've said is unclear, please ask me about it. I understand that this can be a delicate situation for all involved, so I want to be crystal clear rather than risk a misunderstanding. Likewise, if anyone responds unclearly, I will ask for clarification.