Offline CableDawg

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Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2016, 03:21:41 AM »
Is there any artist who believes that the earth is flat? I don't think so.

In art class I was taught the horizon line is always at the EYE LEVEL or the artist. It is not determined by being able to see at a fixed distance. The website attached has some useful illustrations.

http://www.joshuanava.biz/perspective/in-other-words-the-observer-simply-points-in-the-same-direction-as-the-lines-in-order-to-find-their-vanishing-point.html

Standing on a cliff even a few meters away from the beach, one will see further than a man with binoculars on the same beach. Why?
Because of the atmosphere, it changes according to the observer.
Behold, the atmosphere is self-aware!

The atmosphere and horizon are both self aware and they are conspiring against us mere humans so that we are kept off balance regarding the truth of RE or FE.

I'm sure it's in the Wiki...somewhere.

Offline CableDawg

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Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2016, 03:24:21 AM »
This thread appears to have gotten very off topic.

Most do on this site.

When a trip into the rabbit hole is the only way to support ones belief/argument going off topic can't be helped.

The Red Queen would find herself right at home here.

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2016, 07:21:21 AM »
Is there any artist who believes that the earth is flat? I don't think so.

In art class I was taught the horizon line is always at the EYE LEVEL or the artist. It is not determined by being able to see at a fixed distance. The website attached has some useful illustrations.

http://www.joshuanava.biz/perspective/in-other-words-the-observer-simply-points-in-the-same-direction-as-the-lines-in-order-to-find-their-vanishing-point.html

Standing on a cliff even a few meters away from the beach, one will see further than a man with binoculars on the same beach. Why?
You are just too logical for a place like this! I don't know how you can answer this sort of argument:
Because of the atmosphere, it changes according to the observer.
All you say is "really?"

Then you get:
Quote
It's a pretty damning basic observation that negates one of the fundamental principles of flat earth theory.
http://wiki.tfes.org/Magnification_of_the_Sun_at_Sunset
You should read that bit of the Wiki, and see if you can see that can possibly be an explanation for both the sun and moon staying essentially the same size, not only while setting, but all day. The very thought of moon causing "the intense rays of light passing through the strata of the atmolayer" is quite ludicrous to me.

Still, if that's what it takes to explain away the shortcomings of the theory, I guess they have to stick to them!

But, at least you tried.

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Offline Boots

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Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2016, 12:57:32 AM »


Here is what I would like to know. The sketch is not to scale obviously, but if the bottom person is seeing an object 5 Km away, that same object is going to be almost 9 meters farther away for the top person if he is 300m higher. If the atmosphere is what is preventing us from seeing objects in the distance I would think the top person would be able to see less far, not farther. An example would be a ship disappearing over the horizon with two observers, one at water level and another 300m higher. If the earth is flat why does the boat disappear from the bottom person's view first, even though the top person is looking through 9 extra meters of atmosphere?

I know the answer so far has been the atmosphere changes according to the observer but is that all there is to it? That seems like a fairly unsatisfactory answer since atmospheric conditions change constantly while these observations are quite consistent.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2016, 01:21:34 AM by Boots »
“There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them.” - George Orwell

Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2016, 06:02:00 PM »


Here is what I would like to know. The sketch is not to scale obviously, but if the bottom person is seeing an object 5 Km away, that same object is going to be almost 9 meters farther away for the top person if he is 300m higher. If the atmosphere is what is preventing us from seeing objects in the distance I would think the top person would be able to see less far, not farther. An example would be a ship disappearing over the horizon with two observers, one at water level and another 300m higher. If the earth is flat why does the boat disappear from the bottom person's view first, even though the top person is looking through 9 extra meters of atmosphere?

I know the answer so far has been the atmosphere changes according to the observer but is that all there is to it? That seems like a fairly unsatisfactory answer since atmospheric conditions change constantly while these observations are quite consistent.

The atmosphere is just a factor in determining what you can see, how far you can see is determined by the strength of your eyes or your optic instrument. We can all agree you can see "further" when looking through binoculars right? Without binoculars everything becomes imperceptibly small in the distance. As an observer, subject to perspective because of the fundamental way light and optics work, the ground doesn't appear flat as in the crude diagram, it rises to meet the sky. With height you are "stretching" the vanishing point, you see more of the ground. At that point the atmosphere becomes more a factor in resolving a clear horizon, as you're looking through progressively more the higher you go.

The thing is, these are facts on a flat earth, or a round earth so big it is essentially flat. We can't ignore this when trying to understand an observation such as the perceived motion of the sun or the horizon itself.

The horizon isn't where the earth curves away because you can't see that far away, while say, standing on a beach.

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Offline Boots

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Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2016, 06:43:48 PM »


The atmosphere is just a factor in determining what you can see, how far you can see is determined by the strength of your eyes or your optic instrument. We can all agree you can see "further" when looking through binoculars right? Without binoculars everything becomes imperceptibly small in the distance. As an observer, subject to perspective because of the fundamental way light and optics work, the ground doesn't appear flat as in the crude diagram, it rises to meet the sky. With height you are "stretching" the vanishing point, you see more of the ground. At that point the atmosphere becomes more a factor in resolving a clear horizon, as you're looking through progressively more the higher you go.

The thing is, these are facts on a flat earth, or a round earth so big it is essentially flat. We can't ignore this when trying to understand an observation such as the perceived motion of the sun or the horizon itself.

The horizon isn't where the earth curves away because you can't see that far away, while say, standing on a beach.

I hope you don't mind my simple sketches but does the following somewhat represent why you believe we can see farther at higher elevations on a flat earth?

« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 03:27:53 AM by Boots »
“There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them.” - George Orwell

geckothegeek

Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2016, 02:40:48 AM »


Here is what I would like to know. The sketch is not to scale obviously, but if the bottom person is seeing an object 5 Km away, that same object is going to be almost 9 meters farther away for the top person if he is 300m higher. If the atmosphere is what is preventing us from seeing objects in the distance I would think the top person would be able to see less far, not farther. An example would be a ship disappearing over the horizon with two observers, one at water level and another 300m higher. If the earth is flat why does the boat disappear from the bottom person's view first, even though the top person is looking through 9 extra meters of atmosphere?

I know the answer so far has been the atmosphere changes according to the observer but is that all there is to it? That seems like a fairly unsatisfactory answer since atmospheric conditions change constantly while these observations are quite consistent.

The atmosphere is just a factor in determining what you can see, how far you can see is determined by the strength of your eyes or your optic instrument. We can all agree you can see "further" when looking through binoculars right? Without binoculars everything becomes imperceptibly small in the distance. As an observer, subject to perspective because of the fundamental way light and optics work, the ground doesn't appear flat as in the crude diagram, it rises to meet the sky. With height you are "stretching" the vanishing point, you see more of the ground. At that point the atmosphere becomes more a factor in resolving a clear horizon, as you're looking through progressively more the higher you go.

The thing is, these are facts on a flat earth, or a round earth so big it is essentially flat. We can't ignore this when trying to understand an observation such as the perceived motion of the sun or the horizon itself.

The horizon isn't where the earth curves away because you can't see that far away, while say, standing on a beach.

The horizon IS where the earth curves away because you CAN see that far away - it is only about 2 or 3 miles away - while say, standing on a beach.
You CAN NOT see any farther with binoculars. You  CAN see distant objects larger than you can see them with the naked eye, but they are no farther away.

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2016, 03:08:20 AM »

The thing is, these are facts on a flat earth, or a round earth so big it is essentially flat. We can't ignore this when trying to understand an observation such as the perceived motion of the sun or the horizon itself.

The horizon isn't where the earth curves away because you can't see that far away, while say, standing on a beach.

Surely even you know better than that. You certainly can see that far away as the distances are only a few kilometres from near sea level.

The first photograph, below, shows a navigation beacon taken from as close as I could get to water level. The beacon appears to be almost on the visible horizon.

Scarborough, Beacon on Horizon

This photograph shows the same navigation beacon taken from roughly 3 m above water level. The visible horizon now appears considerably further away than the beacon.

Scarborough, Horizon past Beacon
This Google Earth view shows the location of that beacon as being 2.61 km from the beach (the camera has GPS to give its location).

With the Metabunk, Earth's Curve Horizon, Bulge, Drop, and Hidden Calculator we can check if the near water distance is reasonable.
Quote
Distance = 2.61 km, View Height = 0.54 meters, Radius = 6371 km
Horizon = 2.61 km, Bulge = 0.13 meters, Drop = 0.53 meters
Hidden = None, horizon is beyond the target distance
I should point out that I was crouching at the edge of the water (not wanting to get me or the camera wet) and did not measure the camera height, but 0.5 m or so seems right.

The nearest I can estimate is that the second photo was taken from about 3 m above water level (that's the extra elevation given on Google Earth).
For this height the "Metabunk, Earth's Curve Horizon, Bulge, Drop, and Hidden Calculator" gives the horizon distance 6.18 km.
Quote
Distance = 2.61 km, View Height = 3 meters, Radius = 6371 km.
Horizon = 6.18 km, Bulge = 0.13 meters, Drop = 0.53 meters
Hidden= None, horizon is beyond the target distance
There is no easy of estimating the horizon distance from the photograph from the photograph, but it is certainly well past the beacon's known 2.61 km.

This is a long-winded way of saying that I am certain that the horizon distance is quite within a visible distance and does increase with increased viewing height.

« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 10:56:05 AM by rabinoz »

Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2016, 07:02:29 AM »
Boots, that's one way to illustrate it. It is difficult because reality and how we perceive it is two different things. We know the sky and the ocean don't touch, just like we know the ceiling in a tunnel doesn't get closer to the road at the exit. To just leave out that crucial distinction when trying to understand what we are looking at when we look at the horizon is inexcusable. Flat or round, along with other phenomenon like refraction and, it's not as simple as the earth curving away from you.

Gecko, reread what I said. I put further in quotes, no one is saying you can more, but when you look into a pair of binoculars, or telescope you can see more clearly the things distorted by the vanishing point. Capitalizing certain words in your sentences is no substitute for logic. Try presenting an argument instead of being petulant for once.

Rab, thanks for the photos. I don't see how it contradicts what I've said, it certainly is evidence of height differences making a huge difference on the perceived distance to the horizon however. 3m difference certainly makes the horizon look further away, technically an illusion of seeing further. From closer to sea level it looks like the earth curves away closer, but as your calculator shows, that's clearly not the case.

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Offline Boots

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Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2016, 10:15:07 AM »
Boots, that's one way to illustrate it. It is difficult because reality and how we perceive it is two different things. We know the sky and the ocean don't touch, just like we know the ceiling in a tunnel doesn't get closer to the road at the exit. To just leave out that crucial distinction when trying to understand what we are looking at when we look at the horizon is inexcusable. Flat or round, along with other phenomenon like refraction and, it's not as simple as the earth curving away from you.

So if you were in a very long tunnel in which the ceiling appeared to meet the road in the distance and a truck drove from your end of the tunnel to the other end would the bottom begin to disappear first and the top last like the ships do on the horizon?

Rab, thanks for the photos. I don't see how it contradicts what I've said, it certainly is evidence of height differences making a huge difference on the perceived distance to the horizon however. 3m difference certainly makes the horizon look further away, technically an illusion of seeing further. From closer to sea level it looks like the earth curves away closer, but as your calculator shows, that's clearly not the case.

Rab's post contradicts at least this statement possibly more:

The Earth curving away from you isn't the reason your vision is limited. Your eyes aren't strong enough to see that far away, if you believe the Earth to just be a massive ball that only looks flat because it is so big, that is.
“There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them.” - George Orwell

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2016, 11:47:06 AM »

Rab, thanks for the photos. I don't see how it contradicts what I've said, it certainly is evidence of height differences making a huge difference on the perceived distance to the horizon however. 3m difference certainly makes the horizon look further away, technically an illusion of seeing further. From closer to sea level it looks like the earth curves away closer, but as your calculator shows, that's clearly not the case.
I can't see how you can claim that at all. Your originally past claimed
The horizon isn't where the earth curves away because you can't see that far away, while say, standing on a beach.

The first photograph showing the navigation beacon appearing to be on the visible horizon, or at least very close to it.

Scarborough, Beacon on Horizon
The map locations of the camera and the beacon show that distance to be very close to 2.61 km.

The Metabunk, Earth's Curve Horizon, Bulge, Drop, and Hidden Calculator shows that the expected distance to the horizon from a camera height of 0.54 m is 2.61 km.

When the camera height is raised to 3 m the horizon distance extends to 6.18 km. That is no "illusion", it fits quite well with what we see.

So I fail to see how you can see "technically an illusion of seeing further" - why an "illusion", it is simply reality.

Then you say "From closer to sea level it looks like the earth curves away closer, but as your calculator shows, that's clearly not the case."
Again what do you mean by "as your calculator shows, that's clearly not the case"?
It clearly is the case, because when the viewing point is 3 m high the tangent to the curve (the horizon) is 6.18 km away,
but when the  viewing point is reduced to 0.54 m high the tangent to the curve (the horizon) is reduced to 2.61 km away.

Note, that while the 2.61 km distance to the beacon is quite accurately known, the heights are not claimed to be very accurate,
        but are just intended to be a point very close to water level and as high as I could get at the location.
As far as I am concerned those photos certainly show that the distance to the horizon varies with elevation as expected on the globe.

You quite categorically stated that "The horizon isn't where the earth curves away because you can't see that far away" and that is what I claim is quite incorrect.
Those photos were taken with quite a long telephoto (1440 mm, 35 mm equiv), so show the beacon quite large, so I took a photo with a "normal" 50 mm setting to show that the beacon would be visible to the unaided eye.
In this photo the beacon is quite small, but still quite visible (and better before Photobucket "got at it").
« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 11:03:51 AM by rabinoz »

Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2016, 05:18:55 PM »
Boots, that's one way to illustrate it. It is difficult because reality and how we perceive it is two different things. We know the sky and the ocean don't touch, just like we know the ceiling in a tunnel doesn't get closer to the road at the exit. To just leave out that crucial distinction when trying to understand what we are looking at when we look at the horizon is inexcusable. Flat or round, along with other phenomenon like refraction and, it's not as simple as the earth curving away from you.

So if you were in a very long tunnel in which the ceiling appeared to meet the road in the distance and a truck drove from your end of the tunnel to the other end would the bottom begin to disappear first and the top last like the ships do on the horizon?

On a theoretical, completely flat level road, I'm inclined to say no. If the road had waves in it maybe, or any kind of aberration that could block your view. Maybe an optical illusion or mirage could make it look like that.



This diagram would be more like it, except it would just scale with your height, as the perceived distances aren't actually quantifiable anyway.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 05:32:24 PM by TheTruthIsOnHere »

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Offline Boots

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Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2016, 05:39:52 PM »
Boots, that's one way to illustrate it. It is difficult because reality and how we perceive it is two different things. We know the sky and the ocean don't touch, just like we know the ceiling in a tunnel doesn't get closer to the road at the exit. To just leave out that crucial distinction when trying to understand what we are looking at when we look at the horizon is inexcusable. Flat or round, along with other phenomenon like refraction and, it's not as simple as the earth curving away from you.

So if you were in a very long tunnel in which the ceiling appeared to meet the road in the distance and a truck drove from your end of the tunnel to the other end would the bottom begin to disappear first and the top last like the ships do on the horizon?

On a theoretical, completely flat level road, I'm inclined to say no. If the road had waves in it maybe, or any kind of aberration that could block your view. Maybe an optical illusion or mirage could make it look like that.



This diagram would be more like it, except it would just scale with your height, as the perceived distances aren't actually quantifiable anyway.

Okay. So the reason ships disappear bottom first, top last is because of the waves? So if we were to observe a boat or ship disappear past the horizon when the water was calm we would not observe this effect?
“There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them.” - George Orwell

Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2016, 05:55:59 PM »
To say waves have nothing to do with it when you can clearly see waves breaking over the horizon on most beaches in America would be naive.

I'm more inclined to think it has something to do with refraction or optical illusion of some sort. Whenever you see a video trying to depict this phenomenon you can see that the image becomes heavily distorted, even "wavy" like a mirage.

With the naked eye it would be too imperceptible to ever make a claim such as "the hull disappearing first," interesting considering this observation was first made with just that, the naked eye.

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Offline Boots

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Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2016, 06:31:30 PM »
To say waves have nothing to do with it when you can clearly see waves breaking over the horizon on most beaches in America would be naive.

I'm more inclined to think it has something to do with refraction or optical illusion of some sort. Whenever you see a video trying to depict this phenomenon you can see that the image becomes heavily distorted, even "wavy" like a mirage.

With the naked eye it would be too imperceptible to ever make a claim such as "the hull disappearing first," interesting considering this observation was first made with just that, the naked eye.

Even with the naked eye it is not difficult to see that the bottom disappears first and the top last, especially with large, tall vessels.

So if you were in a very long boat tunnel in which the ceiling appeared to meet the water in the distance and a boat travelled from your end of the tunnel to the other end would the bottom begin to disappear first and the top last like the ships do on the horizon?
“There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them.” - George Orwell

Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2016, 07:13:19 PM »
To say waves have nothing to do with it when you can clearly see waves breaking over the horizon on most beaches in America would be naive.

I'm more inclined to think it has something to do with refraction or optical illusion of some sort. Whenever you see a video trying to depict this phenomenon you can see that the image becomes heavily distorted, even "wavy" like a mirage.

With the naked eye it would be too imperceptible to ever make a claim such as "the hull disappearing first," interesting considering this observation was first made with just that, the naked eye.

Even with the naked eye it is not difficult to see that the bottom disappears first and the top last, especially with large, tall vessels.


That hasn't been my experience.

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Offline Boots

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Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2016, 07:56:13 PM »
To say waves have nothing to do with it when you can clearly see waves breaking over the horizon on most beaches in America would be naive.

I'm more inclined to think it has something to do with refraction or optical illusion of some sort. Whenever you see a video trying to depict this phenomenon you can see that the image becomes heavily distorted, even "wavy" like a mirage.

With the naked eye it would be too imperceptible to ever make a claim such as "the hull disappearing first," interesting considering this observation was first made with just that, the naked eye.

Even with the naked eye it is not difficult to see that the bottom disappears first and the top last, especially with large, tall vessels.


That hasn't been my experience.

OK. Well I might have been hasty in claiming it is "not difficult." But I have been able to discern this effect with my eyes. However, this is not an important part of the discussion is it? What difference if it is observed with the unaided eye or a pair of binoculars.
“There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them.” - George Orwell

Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2016, 10:06:49 PM »
To say waves have nothing to do with it when you can clearly see waves breaking over the horizon on most beaches in America would be naive.

I'm more inclined to think it has something to do with refraction or optical illusion of some sort. Whenever you see a video trying to depict this phenomenon you can see that the image becomes heavily distorted, even "wavy" like a mirage.

With the naked eye it would be too imperceptible to ever make a claim such as "the hull disappearing first," interesting considering this observation was first made with just that, the naked eye.

Even with the naked eye it is not difficult to see that the bottom disappears first and the top last, especially with large, tall vessels.


That hasn't been my experience.

OK. Well I might have been hasty in claiming it is "not difficult." But I have been able to discern this effect with my eyes. However, this is not an important part of the discussion is it? What difference if it is observed with the unaided eye or a pair of binoculars.

With binoculars you'll be able to more clearly resolve what is happening, but you will just see the odd atmospheric effects even more clearly.

Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2016, 10:38:46 PM »
I'm more inclined to think it has something to do with refraction or optical illusion of some sort. Whenever you see a video trying to depict this phenomenon you can see that the image becomes heavily distorted, even "wavy" like a mirage.
With binoculars you'll be able to more clearly resolve what is happening, but you will just see the odd atmospheric effects even more clearly.

This is no great mystery. It's due to the refraction of light through a constantly shifting atmosphere. It is more noticeable near a hot surface (like a road on a hot day) which causes a circulation of hot air. Zooming in with binoculars also makes it more noticeable.

But how do you explain the bottoms of objects being obscured by refraction? Perhaps you can draw us a diagram to illustrate how it is possible? (By the way, I am not just being sarcastic/dismissive. It IS theoretically possible.)

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Things You Can Do Everyday!
« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2016, 02:33:40 AM »

On a theoretical, completely flat level road, I'm inclined to say no. If the road had waves in it maybe, or any kind of aberration that could block your view. Maybe an optical illusion or mirage could make it look like that.


This diagram would be more like it, except it would just scale with your height, as the perceived distances aren't actually quantifiable anyway.

You, along with all flat earthers seem stuck on the idea that the visible horizon if the vanishing point.
  • There is no fixed vanishing point, The vanishing point depends entirely on the size of the object. As a rough indication, Rowbotham's vanishing point = 3,000 x object size guide.

  • The distance to the visible horizon has absolutely no connection with the vanishing point. There are numerous photos of objects well past the visible horizon that are quite visible.
This sort of thing

and this

Not only the ship but also the land behind is further away than the visible flat water horizon.