Re: I want to hear again the excuses why GPS cannot be ground based ?
« Reply #40 on: November 10, 2016, 06:08:38 AM »
Wrong.

Incorrect.

Right down to your usually completely uninformative answers, keep it up!

I'm sorry if my previous links were too hard for you to understand. If you need any help, please just ask and I'll do my best to explain in a more simple way for you.

I would really like that. One thing I am not understanding is if the GPS system is based on balloons at 18 - 40 KM why don't these altitudes comply with the calculations of the GPS? And I'm not sure but I think you can get altitude or elevation information from positions higher than 18 - 40 Km. How is this possible?
I thought you get the distance between the transmitters to the device ?
No, you measure the difference in time between the atomic watch on the satellite and whatever kind of clock on the receiver.

And guys, stop replying to junker. He's quite clearly just messing around with you.
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Offline Boots

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Re: I want to hear again the excuses why GPS cannot be ground based ?
« Reply #41 on: November 10, 2016, 07:50:00 AM »
I based this on the following:

Those altitudes doesn't comply with the calculations of GPS signals regardless, where even the precision of a simple reciever clock and it's drift can be used to calculate the distance to a GPS satellite.


Do you disagree with this? Why?

Irrelevant. What I am asking for is evidence. You have provided none. Repeating something that someone else posted, also without evidence, doesn't constitute evidence. If you have none, then simply say so.



First hand observations are evidence.


I am positing the question because I am quite sure they are accurate at higher elevations.
Fantastic. I am sure you can provide supporting evidence for this.

http://www.gps.gov/multimedia/presentations/2011/09/ICG/miller.pdf


Do you think this is correct or false?
Irrelevant.

Incorrect

I am of the understanding that 40 Km is the upper limit of elevation you can achieve with balloons.

Cool story, who is talking about balloons?

You are:

"Project Loon is a research and development project being developed by X (formerly Google X) with the mission of providing Internet access to rural and remote areas. The project uses high-altitude balloons..."



Do agree with this or do you think they can achieve even higher altitude?
Irrelevant.
Incorrect


Also, why are you painting all REers with the same brush? When Gecko did that to FEers we concluded that this position was nonsensical and false.
I am glad you agree that Gecko is nonsensical.

I can agree with your earlier statement that painting a whole group of people with the same brush is nonsensical. Which is what you did here.
“There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them.” - George Orwell

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Offline junker

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Re: I want to hear again the excuses why GPS cannot be ground based ?
« Reply #42 on: November 10, 2016, 01:02:33 PM »
I can agree with your earlier statement that painting a whole group of people with the same brush is nonsensical. Which is what you did here.

False.

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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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[topic]The Lapwing Defence
« Reply #43 on: November 10, 2016, 03:33:50 PM »
The Lapwing Defence.

Describes the two main defensive postures of the FE community on this site and is named (by me) in honour of the Lapwing (Green Plover) that use to grace the fields of my childhood.

Lapwings are fiercely territorial; evolution took the short cut of instead of recognising actual threat species, they will see any and everything that comes close to their nest as “that which must be fucked up” which they will do by mobbing said threat, dive bombing, head pecking and shitting upon, they do this in quite large numbers in the right conditions. FE wise we have seen this with the mobbing of Andruzsky some time back and the wholly unnecessary attacks on Rabs rather cute and pretty style of formatting his posts. This is to be expected and anyone who fails to recognise and deal with this should be derided.

Lapwings however have a fall-back strategy, if alone or the pecking and the shitting isn’t cutting the mustard they will limp along the ground dragging their wing and making pathetic noises, many predators will see an easy meal and stalk the “injured” bird and be drawn away from the nest, it is a fine art to keep the pretence up until the “danger” has forgotten where the fuck he thought the eggs were, but Junker is a master and people keep getting drawn off.
 
Focus on the eggs people!
« Last Edit: November 23, 2016, 09:07:50 AM by Jura-Glenlivet »
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

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Offline Boots

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Re: I want to hear again the excuses why GPS cannot be ground based ?
« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2016, 04:18:40 PM »
I can agree with your earlier statement that painting a whole group of people with the same brush is nonsensical. Which is what you did here.

False.

LOL. I really tried to engage you in an actual discussion. It was clear that people who have been here much longer than me thought it was futile. Clearly I should have listened. BTW I have had discussions with FEers whom, though I completely disagree with their view, I can respect them and have a decent discussion with them. And there are GEers who are worse than you. It appears you define everyone by what their position is on the shape of the earth. When you accuse people of not knowing how to have a discussion or you accuse someone of painting a whole group with the same brush, that is practically the definition of hypocrisy. And just to save you the bother of responding to this post, I'll do it for you:

Quote from: junker
Incorrect. Irrelevant. False. Do you have evidence?

To everyone else: I apologize for being duped by the Lapwing defense and helping to derail various topics. I'll try to recognize it and ignore it from now on. Back to why GPS cannot be ground based:
“There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them.” - George Orwell

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Offline junker

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Re: I want to hear again the excuses why GPS cannot be ground based ?
« Reply #45 on: November 10, 2016, 04:41:26 PM »
I can agree with your earlier statement that painting a whole group of people with the same brush is nonsensical. Which is what you did here.

False.

LOL. I really tried to engage you in an actual discussion. It was clear that people who have been here much longer than me thought it was futile. Clearly I should have listened. BTW I have had discussions with FEers whom, though I completely disagree with their view, I can respect them and have a decent discussion with them. And there are GEers who are worse than you. It appears you define everyone by what their position is on the shape of the earth. When you accuse people of not knowing how to have a discussion or you accuse someone of painting a whole group with the same brush, that is practically the definition of hypocrisy. And just to save you the bother of responding to this post, I'll do it for you:

Quote from: junker
Incorrect. Irrelevant. False. Do you have evidence?

To everyone else: I apologize for being duped by the Lapwing defense and helping to derail various topics. I'll try to recognize it and ignore it from now on. Back to why GPS cannot be ground based:

Still no evidence for your position, then. Gotcha.

Re: I want to hear again the excuses why GPS cannot be ground based ?
« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2016, 05:41:11 PM »
I can agree with your earlier statement that painting a whole group of people with the same brush is nonsensical. Which is what you did here.

False.

LOL. I really tried to engage you in an actual discussion. It was clear that people who have been here much longer than me thought it was futile. Clearly I should have listened. BTW I have had discussions with FEers whom, though I completely disagree with their view, I can respect them and have a decent discussion with them. And there are GEers who are worse than you. It appears you define everyone by what their position is on the shape of the earth. When you accuse people of not knowing how to have a discussion or you accuse someone of painting a whole group with the same brush, that is practically the definition of hypocrisy. And just to save you the bother of responding to this post, I'll do it for you:

Quote from: junker
Incorrect. Irrelevant. False. Do you have evidence?

To everyone else: I apologize for being duped by the Lapwing defense and helping to derail various topics. I'll try to recognize it and ignore it from now on. Back to why GPS cannot be ground based:

Still no evidence for your position, then. Gotcha.
He don't have to, I've already asked a few questions based on reality that needs explanation before we can continue.
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Offline junker

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Re: I want to hear again the excuses why GPS cannot be ground based ?
« Reply #47 on: November 10, 2016, 06:12:57 PM »
He don't have to, I've already asked a few questions based on reality that needs explanation before we can continue.

Not providing evidence seems to be the default position of many RErs...

You'll need to clarify your "reality" claim, though.

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Re: I want to hear again the excuses why GPS cannot be ground based ?
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2016, 01:11:43 PM »

I am of the understanding that 40 Km is the upper limit of elevation you can achieve with balloons.
Cool story, who is talking about balloons?



You.  Remember that post a few back when you were imploring everyone (at least RE's) to think outside the box?  You know, the one in which you posited similar ideas to two balloons.

Re: I want to hear again the excuses why GPS cannot be ground based ?
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2016, 03:07:55 PM »
Is the question:

a) Is it possible to design, build and maintain a navigation and timing system with the same coverage and features of the GPS systems we currently use?

or b) Is there evidence to show the existing GPS systems use satellites?

a) No, each county would have to agree to build transmitters for the current 4 systems and a solution found for oceans.

b) Read the documentation and the receiver output.

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Offline junker

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Re: I want to hear again the excuses why GPS cannot be ground based ?
« Reply #50 on: November 12, 2016, 04:40:29 PM »

I am of the understanding that 40 Km is the upper limit of elevation you can achieve with balloons.
Cool story, who is talking about balloons?



You.  Remember that post a few back when you were imploring everyone (at least RE's) to think outside the box?  You know, the one in which you posited similar ideas to two balloons.

I would suggest you go back and read the thread again to gain a better understanding of what's being discussed.

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: I want to hear again the excuses why GPS cannot be ground based ?
« Reply #51 on: November 12, 2016, 10:35:13 PM »

I am of the understanding that 40 Km is the upper limit of elevation you can achieve with balloons.
Cool story, who is talking about balloons?



You.  Remember that post a few back when you were imploring everyone (at least RE's) to think outside the box?  You know, the one in which you posited similar ideas to two balloons.

I would suggest you go back and read the thread again to gain a better understanding of what's being discussed.

I've read it and was giving some reason's why ground bases are not a feasible for multi-national Global Navigation Systems.
By the way, I commonly receive over satellites, being a mixture of GPS, GLONASS and a few others.
Are you suggest I could be in range of 20 or more ground (or balloon) bases?

You might be interested in debating "etiquette", I am interested in facts.

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Re: I want to hear again the excuses why GPS cannot be ground based ?
« Reply #52 on: November 13, 2016, 02:17:45 AM »

I am of the understanding that 40 Km is the upper limit of elevation you can achieve with balloons.
Cool story, who is talking about balloons?



You.  Remember that post a few back when you were imploring everyone (at least RE's) to think outside the box?  You know, the one in which you posited similar ideas to two balloons.

I would suggest you go back and read the thread again to gain a better understanding of what's being discussed.

What's to understand?  You told all the RE's to think outside the box and posted two links to balloon based systems.  If you don't want to talk about balloons or systems similar to the two you linked to, don't introduce them to support your argument.

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Offline junker

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Re: I want to hear again the excuses why GPS cannot be ground based ?
« Reply #53 on: November 13, 2016, 02:51:47 AM »

I am of the understanding that 40 Km is the upper limit of elevation you can achieve with balloons.
Cool story, who is talking about balloons?



You.  Remember that post a few back when you were imploring everyone (at least RE's) to think outside the box?  You know, the one in which you posited similar ideas to two balloons.

I would suggest you go back and read the thread again to gain a better understanding of what's being discussed.

What's to understand?  You told all the RE's to think outside the box and posted two links to balloon based systems.  If you don't want to talk about balloons or systems similar to the two you linked to, don't introduce them to support your argument.

I suppose it's a good thing that didn't happen, then.

Re: I want to hear again the excuses why GPS cannot be ground based ?
« Reply #54 on: November 22, 2016, 05:01:06 PM »
Still no evidence that GPS uses anything other than satellites.

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Offline junker

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Re: I want to hear again the excuses why GPS cannot be ground based ?
« Reply #55 on: November 23, 2016, 07:38:53 PM »
Still no evidence that GPS uses anything other than satellites.

Or evidence that it has to use satellites. What a fun thread.

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: I want to hear again the excuses why GPS cannot be ground based ?
« Reply #56 on: November 24, 2016, 01:29:07 AM »
Still no evidence that GPS uses anything other than satellites.

Or evidence that it has to use satellites. What a fun thread.
Note, I'm not arguing against the existence of pseudolites. They are being investigated for various applications, such as in
          Pseudolite Applications in Positioning and Navigation: Progress and Problems
and
          Test Results of Local Area Augmentation of GPS With an In-Band Pseudolite - abstract only.

Since I have no idea of the properties of your non-satellite GPS stations I can only guess at the range.
This reference suggests a range about 150 km China Satellite Navigation Conference (CSNC) 2013 Proceedings: Satellite . . . . . . .
With Australia being roughly 3,000 km x 4,000 km, this would mean around 10 x 13 = 130 pseudolites to guarantee I could receive one anywhere in the country.

But, I can receive signals up to 23 satellites when in a clear space.
Up to a half of these are GLONOSS and most of the rest the GPS Global Navigation System, so that would seem to need around 3,000 pseudolites, just to cover Australia.

If you have better information on the range of you non-satellite GPS stations we could comment more intelligently, but since it's all a big guess on your part that's the best I can do.

Of course you have no evidence that Australia (or anywhere else) has thousands of "pseudolites" or "ground stations" or whatever you suggest installed by Russia, USA and the EU, so over to you to make suggestions.

Keep dreaming. I'll keep to the simple model so I don't have to dream up excuses for numerous simple observations, like the appearance of sunrises, sunsets and lunar phases.

If it's fun models you want, why not try Terry Pratchett's "Discworld" series - at least his model "hangs together" - more or less!
Mind you if this is his "theory of creation:, he probably was a "big bang" adherent!
                              "In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded."
                                                                                          Sir Terry Pratchett.

Re: I want to hear again the excuses why GPS cannot be ground based ?
« Reply #57 on: November 24, 2016, 09:24:43 AM »
Still no evidence that GPS uses anything other than satellites.

Or evidence that it has to use satellites. What a fun thread.
There is no doubt that the systems we use for navigation and timing and call GPS use satellites.

Could we realistically build a land based system giving the same features and performance?  No.

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Re: I want to hear again the excuses why GPS cannot be ground based ?
« Reply #58 on: November 24, 2016, 04:44:05 PM »
Still no evidence that GPS uses anything other than satellites.

Or evidence that it has to use satellites. What a fun thread.
There is no doubt that the systems we use for navigation and timing and call GPS use satellites.

Could we realistically build a land based system giving the same features and performance?  No.

Citation needed...

Re: I want to hear again the excuses why GPS cannot be ground based ?
« Reply #59 on: November 24, 2016, 08:23:33 PM »
Still no evidence that GPS uses anything other than satellites.

Or evidence that it has to use satellites. What a fun thread.
There is no doubt that the systems we use for navigation and timing and call GPS use satellites.

Could we realistically build a land based system giving the same features and performance?  No.

Citation needed...
1 - Documentation, observation, no evidence of alternative method.  Operation in oceans etc.

2 - Please provide links to documented design of an equivalent land based system.