[ErnestV1]

FE people say they cannot map the earth or check any models so presumably they do not believe a map of their own town or country.

This is a fantastic non-sequitur. Well done.

Let's just see how much of a non-sequitur it is.

Are you willing to name any source for a map of any country that you except as being accurate for distance and elevation?

Unless the map or chart reflects the curvature of the earth it will be inaccurate.  Every flat piece of paper that attempts to approximate the globe is going to have errors. It is widely accepted that all latitudes converge on the north (and to a lesser degree the south)poles. If the earth were truly flat, one would think that an accurate map would be quite easy, especially near coastlines where elevation is mostly not a factor, by using compass and transit. Surveyors have honed their craft quite well.

That being said, with the advent of worldwide communication, it became undeniable that the original flat maps could not hold water due to sun transit (time zones) and seasons that differ between North and South. The largest number of people, thus communication and travel made it very easy to assume that the FE north pole-centric map would fit all available data, in fact it is quite cleaver how much of the data this works for... especially north of the Equator. Unfortunately with the South Pole exploration of 100 years ago, there has been much data that is largely held in disrepute by FE who hold to this view of the world map because the so called ice wall is not long enough, and places south of 66 degrees S longitude have a nasty habit of more than 24 hours of night or daylight near the solstices.

Of course any who want to stand on the belief if a 2D world have a few choices, discredit any info that does not fit the model, or accept the data and look for a new model.

I see a lot of FE adherents attempting to discredit videos, but I have yet to see anyone attempt to discredit early 20th century explorer journals.  And now it looks to me like Tom and others are beginning to concede the point that the South Pole definitely has similar daylight traits as the North Pole... thus the search for a new map model must begin in earnest. I look forward to seeing what other map attempts might be made to see how closely it might fit the data. For now, this old sailor is content to use his charts that while flat are a close approximation to globe representation while using satellite based GPS to get a fix on my location. It may not be 100% accurate but it is a far cry closer than anything I have yet to see from a Flat Earth model to date.

[Tom Bishop]

And now it looks to me like Tom and others are beginning to concede the point that the South Pole definitely has similar daylight traits as the North Pole... thus the search for a new map model must begin in earnest.

If you read the Flat Earth literature works the bi-polar model (not that specific map, however) has been around since at least 1918, and is said to have been created immediately after the South Pole was discovered as to include that new data into an updated Flat Earth model. Read the book "The Sea-Earth Globe and its Monstrous Hypothetical Motions" by Zetetes. The concept of a South Pole has been accepted in the society since there was a South Pole. It is not some new thing.

[inquisitive]

And now it looks to me like Tom and others are beginning to concede the point that the South Pole definitely has similar daylight traits as the North Pole... thus the search for a new map model must begin in earnest.

If you read the Flat Earth literature works the bi-polar model (not that specific map, however) has been around since at least 1918, and is said to have been created immediately after the South Pole was discovered as to include that new data into an updated Flat Earth model. Read the book "The Sea-Earth Globe and its Monstrous Hypothetical Motions" by Zetetes. The concept of a South Pole has been accepted in the society since there was a South Pole. It is not some new thing.

Please tell us the location of the South Pole, it being a specific location, and distance from Perth in Australia.

[ErnestV1]

And now it looks to me like Tom and others are beginning to concede the point that the South Pole definitely has similar daylight traits as the North Pole... thus the search for a new map model must begin in earnest.

If you read the Flat Earth literature works the bi-polar model (not that specific map, however) has been around since at least 1918, and is said to have been created immediately after the South Pole was discovered as to include that new data into an updated Flat Earth model. Read the book "The Sea-Earth Globe and its Monstrous Hypothetical Motions" by Zetetes. The concept of a South Pole has been accepted in the society since there was a South Pole. It is not some new thing.

Ok. I have been exploring both this site as well as others and mostly find those who try to disprove the south pole 24 hour cycle and show that Antarctica is essentially the ice wall. Please forgive my ignorance at this more than confusing development.

[ErnestV1]

We're standing in the center of your newly-found continent of Antarctica on midsummer day (Dec 21st) - the sun orbits all around us and is continually visible.   At some point therefore, it must be closer to the ice-wall (I want to say the "south" - but in this map, that's tricky terminology) than Antarctica...right?

This happens when it is noon at some point on the planet.   Precisely where is hard to say...but it's always noon SOMEWHERE.

So - according to this new and exciting version of FET - the sun is both someplace between the continent of antarctica and the ice wall AND vertically above some place on the equator.

You want to take a shot at where that is?

Maybe get a copy of your map and put a nice red dot where you think the sun must be...I'd love to see that.

The sun isn't over the equator on December 21st in Round Earth Theory. How embarrassing for you that you did not know that.

You might want to rethink this statement for while it is true it shows you, sir do not know when summer starts *hint: think solstice, not equinox*

[juner]

FE people say they cannot map the earth or check any models so presumably they do not believe a map of their own town or country.

This is a fantastic non-sequitur. Well done.

Let's just see how much of a non-sequitur it is.

Are you willing to name any source for a map of any country that you except as being accurate for distance and elevation?

I had a Rand McNally map that worked well for getting me places in the past. I didn't measure the distances and elevations to confirm, but I don't mind assuming they are reasonably accurate.

[inquisitive]

FE people say they cannot map the earth or check any models so presumably they do not believe a map of their own town or country.

This is a fantastic non-sequitur. Well done.

Let's just see how much of a non-sequitur it is.

Are you willing to name any source for a map of any country that you except as being accurate for distance and elevation?

I had a Rand McNally map that worked well for getting me places in the past. I didn't measure the distances and elevations to confirm, but I don't mind assuming they are reasonably accurate.

And similar to assume distances quoted across continents are also reasonably accurate.

[ErnestV1]

In the bi-polar FE model, how can the sun be seen from both the north and south pole simultaneously, but not also the entire planet within the same diameter as between the two poles (which would only exclude Australia, southeast asia, and some pacific islands)?

I do not have any information on whether sun is seen from both the north and south pole simultaneously. I was saying that it does not appear to be impossible under that map. That point may as well be fiction, seeing as we were never provided a source for that claim from the person who stated that.

A link to a video showing the sun's position at equinox 2013 as viewed from the south pole.


A simple search for the date and time of equinox 2013.

https://www.google.com/search?q=when+was+equinox+spring+2013&oq=when+was+equinox+spring+2013&aqs=chrome..69i57.19622j0j4&client=ms-android-att-us&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

Sunrise on the north pole is more than elusive. Every year since 2002 a private Russian camp is set up near the North Pole. The following is a well written article that describes the difficulties of exploring the North Pole.

http://polarexplorers.com/polarexplorers-media/press-and-news-releases/item/78-adventure-to-the-north-pole

While it ma not be 100% conclusive that the sunrise happens on the North Pole simultaneously with the sunset at the South Pole, it is so widely accepted that Borneo Camp attempts to get established as close to that date as possible due to the short duration of time that the ice can support the camp reliably during the spring.

[Merkava]

Honestly, I think we should chalk this up as a Global victory.  After looking at that other ridiculous map and destroying it every which way from Sunday Shazam!  There are 2 magnetic poles and 2 celestial poles.     Antarctica is a freaking continent again?  Baby steps....

[Merkava]

FE people say they cannot map the earth or check any models so presumably they do not believe a map of their own town or country.

This is a fantastic non-sequitur. Well done.

Let's just see how much of a non-sequitur it is.

Are you willing to name any source for a map of any country that you except as being accurate for distance and elevation?

I had a Rand McNally map that worked well for getting me places in the past. I didn't measure the distances and elevations to confirm, but I don't mind assuming they are reasonably accurate.

Awesome.  I went to their site.  Their stuff looks pretty cool, except the free direction map doesn't even have scale.  I'm gonna start a new thread with an idea, because of this.  Please look for it and let me know what you think. 

[3DGeek]

In the bi-polar FE model, how can the sun be seen from both the north and south pole simultaneously, but not also the entire planet within the same diameter as between the two poles (which would only exclude Australia, southeast asia, and some pacific islands)?

I do not have any information on whether sun is seen from both the north and south pole simultaneously. I was saying that it does not appear to be impossible under that map. That point may as well be fiction, seeing as we were never provided a source for that claim from the person who stated that.

(And is Australia really as big as Africa? And how do flights from LA to Sydney work, because I've taken that trip twice [if you count there and back]? I don't recall flying East over the US on the way there, West over Australia on return, or over Africa at any point, or stopping for refueling?)

That is just a proposed map to showcase the concept of two poles only and nothing more. The person who proposed that map has not claimed to measure the size of continents, or the position or layouts of those landmasses.

ANY flat map that has both the arctic and antarctic on it will suffer the exact same fate.  You can pull and push things around any way you like - but you'll always have an anomaly when the antarctic summer demands that the (flat earth) sun does a complete 360 degree rotation around the continent.   At some point in that movement, the sun MUST, for 100% sure be setting in the south or north of some other densely inhabited part of the world.   Since we know for 100% sure that this never happens - your efforts to make a flat map that includes both poles antarctica is unquestionably doomed to fail.

This leaves you with the old map - in which antarctica (effectively) encircles the world.   I find fault with that one too - but it's actually harder to disprove than the new one and it's ilk.

Here is how you can prove this for yourself.   Make paper cutouts of the continents using the accepted data for their sizes.   Cut lengths of thread the same scale length for a wide range of different non-stop intercontinental airline routes.   Tape the ends of those threads to the appropriate locations on the continents where their start and end cities are.

Now, try to lay this out flat...and...oh dear...you can't!   No matter how you arrange the continents - you can never get the intercontinental flight distances to come out right.

Now try the same experiment with a globe - and guess what?   It all works out perfectly with exactly the right distances everywhere.

The information you have on airline flight times must either be drastically wrong (which is hard to believe given the MILLIONS of people who fly those routes) - or your continents are the wrong sizes (also hard to believe when people routinely drive across them)....or the Earth isn't flat.

This is a ridiculously easy experiment to do.  You just need the freely posted airline timetables and the easily available distances across continents - some paper and some thread.

Anybody can do this test.

[Oami]

Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere.

I still don't get the whole meaning of the South pole. What is it? Someone just pointed to a spot on the ground, "hey, let's give this spot a name, what about 'south pole'"?

(On a globe the answer is obvious: it is one end of the earth's rotational axis, the other being the north pole.)

[Tom Bishop]

At some point in that movement, the sun MUST, for 100% sure be setting in the south or north of some other densely inhabited part of the world.   Since we know for 100% sure that this never happens.

How do you know that it never happens? The Sun can set South-West, even in the Round Earth model.

Please provide your source on word-wide observation logs of the sun before continuing your argument. Thanks!

[inquisitive]

At some point in that movement, the sun MUST, for 100% sure be setting in the south or north of some other densely inhabited part of the world.   Since we know for 100% sure that this never happens.

How do you know that it never happens? The Sun can set South-West, even in the Round Earth model.

Please provide your source on word-wide observation logs of the sun before continuing your argument. Thanks!

dateandtime.com gives fully accepted data you can use for analysis to produce a model of the earth.

[Tom Bishop]

At some point in that movement, the sun MUST, for 100% sure be setting in the south or north of some other densely inhabited part of the world.   Since we know for 100% sure that this never happens.

How do you know that it never happens? The Sun can set South-West, even in the Round Earth model.

Please provide your source on word-wide observation logs of the sun before continuing your argument. Thanks!

dateandtime.com gives fully accepted data you can use for analysis to produce a model of the earth.

Okay, where are the reported obervations to verify the model predictions on that website?

[Merkava]

At some point in that movement, the sun MUST, for 100% sure be setting in the south or north of some other densely inhabited part of the world.   Since we know for 100% sure that this never happens.

How do you know that it never happens? The Sun can set South-West, even in the Round Earth model.

Please provide your source on word-wide observation logs of the sun before continuing your argument. Thanks!

dateandtime.com gives fully accepted data you can use for analysis to produce a model of the earth.

Okay, where are the reported obervations to verify the model predictions on that website?

Do we need to have someone enter www and .com and hit <enter> for you as well?

[Tom Bishop]

Please link us to the observations that verify that website, rather than attempting to divert.

[3DGeek]

Please link us to the observations that verify that website, rather than attempting to divert.

How about the fact that if you google for "timeanddate.com is incorrect" - the only hits you get are for things like which cities have daylight savings time - and mundane stuff like that.   Nobody seems to be complaining about any of the results about sunrises and sunsets and so forth.

If the underlying math behind that site was as badly wrong as FET predicts - there would be MOUNTAINS of complaints about errors of tens of minutes in sunrise and sunset times.  Yet I see almost none of those.    If you scroll down the search results far enough, you find an occasional complaint like that - but then if you read the place where the comment is made, it's always some user error like swapping latitude for longitude or forgetting a minus sign or something.

If timeanddate.com were that badly (and systematically) incorrect - there would MILLIONS of people complaining about it.

They don't - it clearly is a good match for the observations of people around the world where it's used.

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/timeanddate.com shows that this is the roughly 700'th most visited site on the Internet - they have over 50 million visitors PER DAY.  If it didn't work well, either very few people would use it - or the complaint rates would be off the charts...and they're not.

Sure - you'll find a way to weasel out and reject this as evidence...I have popcorn ready.

[Tom Bishop]

Please link us to the observations that verify that website, rather than attempting to divert.

How about the fact that if you google for "timeanddate.com is incorrect" - the only hits you get are for things like which cities have daylight savings time - and mundane stuff like that.   Nobody seems to be complaining about any of the results about sunrises and sunsets and so forth.

If the underlying math behind that site was as badly wrong as FET predicts - there would be MOUNTAINS of complaints about errors of tens of minutes in sunrise and sunset times.  Yet I see almost none of those.    If you scroll down the search results far enough, you find an occasional complaint like that - but then if you read the place where the comment is made, it's always some user error like swapping latitude for longitude or forgetting a minus sign or something.

If timeanddate.com were that badly (and systematically) incorrect - there would MILLIONS of people complaining about it.

They don't - it clearly is a good match for the observations of people around the world where it's used.

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/timeanddate.com shows that this is the roughly 700'th most visited site on the Internet - they have over 50 million visitors PER DAY.  If it didn't work well, either very few people would use it - or the complaint rates would be off the charts...and they're not.

Sure - you'll find a way to weasel out and reject this as evidence...I have popcorn ready.

How about providing links to observations that verify the predictions on that website, rather than attempting to divert?

[inquisitive]

Please link us to the observations that verify that website, rather than attempting to divert.

How about the fact that if you google for "timeanddate.com is incorrect" - the only hits you get are for things like which cities have daylight savings time - and mundane stuff like that.   Nobody seems to be complaining about any of the results about sunrises and sunsets and so forth.

If the underlying math behind that site was as badly wrong as FET predicts - there would be MOUNTAINS of complaints about errors of tens of minutes in sunrise and sunset times.  Yet I see almost none of those.    If you scroll down the search results far enough, you find an occasional complaint like that - but then if you read the place where the comment is made, it's always some user error like swapping latitude for longitude or forgetting a minus sign or something.

If timeanddate.com were that badly (and systematically) incorrect - there would MILLIONS of people complaining about it.

They don't - it clearly is a good match for the observations of people around the world where it's used.

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/timeanddate.com shows that this is the roughly 700'th most visited site on the Internet - they have over 50 million visitors PER DAY.  If it didn't work well, either very few people would use it - or the complaint rates would be off the charts...and they're not.

Sure - you'll find a way to weasel out and reject this as evidence...I have popcorn ready.

How about providing links to observations that verify the predictions on that website, rather than attempting to divert?

Have you undertaken any observations for your own location and do they agree?