The Flat Earth Society

Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: Rushy on January 16, 2021, 06:51:12 PM

Title: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rushy on January 16, 2021, 06:51:12 PM
"Microsoft, Oracle and and other tech giants team up Covid-19 vaccine 'passports'"

Quote
Some of the country's biggest tech firms and health care organizations have joined together to help facilitate that return to "normal." The group, called the Vaccine Credential Initiative, wants to ensure that everyone has access to a secure, digital record of their Covid-19 vaccination — like a digital vaccine passport — that can be stored in people's smartphones. The records could be used for everything from airline travel to entering concert venues.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/16/tech/coronavirus-vaccine-records-microsoft-salesforce/index.html

I for one am glad that oversized tech companies are now being given power to whitelist people. I am certain that this system will not be abused in any way and mistakes will not be made. This will not set any dangerous precedents for private organizations to maintain deeper control over other people's activities.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on January 16, 2021, 07:08:13 PM
I am disappointed not to see VISA, Experian, paypal, major banks, mortgage lenders and payment processors not involving themselves to nudge the public in the right direction with the threat of financial oblivion for the lepers who refuse the jabs. Refusal to take the jab should of course knock 500pts of your credit rating and make you ineligible for mortgages and loans. I hope the world of finance soon turns its attention with the help of government to make sure that people do the right thing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on January 17, 2021, 08:17:52 AM
I have no issues with this.  Its no different than a digital drivers license, digital boarding passes, digital payment, etc...

Its basically big tech taking paper documentation (which you'd need to have on you) and making it a secure digital copy that officials will accept instead of a piece of paper you printed out.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on January 17, 2021, 11:47:54 AM
I have no issues with this.
Of course you don't. You literally approve of authoritarianism in every single form it is presented to you. You want to be told how to live, presumably because you are unsure and frightened to have to look after yourself. You want a government to do it for you and you want to be treated like a child by a protective nanny state.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on January 17, 2021, 04:59:48 PM
I have no issues with this.
Of course you don't. You literally approve of authoritarianism in every single form it is presented to you. You want to be told how to live, presumably because you are unsure and frightened to have to look after yourself. You want a government to do it for you and you want to be treated like a child by a protective nanny state.

It's more of a combination of things. Not just a big tech or big brother control. For instance, the example given, a concert venue may require some proof of vaccination to be allowed to enter. That's not a government thing, that's private sector stuff. One venue may require it, another may not. No one is holding a governmental gun to your head to get vaccinated. Areas of the private sector may determine on their own what their policy may be. Just like today, I am not allowed to get into an Uber without a mask. That's Uber's policy. Uber may decide in the future that I can't get a ride without proof of vaccination. It's their private sector call.

Already, States require proof of immunization to enroll kids in school. However, each State has varying degrees of opt-out criteria.

Maybe having a consolidated electronic record of everyone's vaccination status is the creepy part. But not everyone has electronic means. So maybe there will be something like that and other people will have to show some piece of paper from an MD that shows they were vaccinated. Or, perhaps the private sector will individually decide they don't require anything at all for someone to use their service. At the end of the day, it's a private sector call.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on January 17, 2021, 05:22:28 PM
I have no issues with this.
Of course you don't. You literally approve of authoritarianism in every single form it is presented to you. You want to be told how to live, presumably because you are unsure and frightened to have to look after yourself. You want a government to do it for you and you want to be treated like a child by a protective nanny state.

This is false.  I hate Authoritarians, like Donald Trump.  (Seriously he IS an authoritarian.  Like as pure as you get). Plus, no one is telling anyone to get the future service so your argument is kinda worthless.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: bulmabriefs144 on January 29, 2021, 03:22:10 AM
I am disappointed not to see VISA, Experian, paypal, major banks, mortgage lenders and payment processors not involving themselves to nudge the public in the right direction with the threat of financial oblivion for the lepers who refuse the jabs. Refusal to take the jab should of course knock 500pts of your credit rating and make you ineligible for mortgages and loans. I hope the world of finance soon turns its attention with the help of government to make sure that people do the right thing.

The "right thing"?!? Are you serious?

Revelation 13:16-17

Quote
It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

Look, if you want a vaccine to feel safe, this is perfectly fine. I don't know you, and I'm okay with you doing anything to yourself. You want an eyeball piercing or tattoo? Go right ahead.  How about you try to extend me the same courtesy, hmmmm?

I want to be able to do business without having to have some sort of creepy license saying that I branded myself in loyalty to some sketchy medical cult for a "disease" when I have literally seen nobody coughing.  Now maybe you have, but when did it become your business? 
You believe that abortion is right, correct? What is it they always say? "My body, my choice"? So how is it your choice, to the extent where you think that having credit card companies act like Gestapo is okay?

This is the wrong thing, the absolute wrong thing, and you are evil. If someone told me this in person, I would hurt them. It's on the level of evil of torturing a puppy, and justifying it by saying you're doing tests.

Here's what happens when people don't want to "do the right thing."  They suffer for weeks and months then starve to death. 

What starving to death looks like.

 https://www.medicaldaily.com/now-entering-starvation-mode-what-happens-your-metabolic-processes-when-you-stop-feeding-280666

Quote
Your glucose stores may last you for up to 24 or 48 hours, though they will mostly be depleted after six hours. Then, not only will you be hangry, but your body will be entering a state of ketosis, which involves elevated levels of ketone bodies in your system. Ketone bodies are produced from fatty acids when liver glycogen is entirely depleted, and are used for energy.

Quote
The rough part happens after 72 hours of no eating — this is the stage of autophagy. Once the fats are broken down, your body turns to breaking down protein in muscles, essentially wasting away your muscles. At this point, your brain’s requirement for glucose will have dropped from 120 grams per day to only 30 grams. But your brain will need to start getting energy from protein next. Breaking down protein and releasing amino acids into the bloodstream will produce more glucose; this transformation takes place in the liver, and your brain will be fueled by its much-needed glucose once again. Regardless, though your brain will be able to survive from protein, your muscles will slowly disappear.

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However, at a certain point, your immune system will be weakened due to lack of vitamins and minerals. Typically, two diseases can occur in end-stage starvation: marasmus and kwashiorkor.

(https://buddymantra.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Marasmus-281x300.jpg)

You want to wish this on people who don't follow your stupid vaccine rules, who suspect the vaccine may alter their genes or give them bad side effects.

Btw, there are already bad side effects.  Some lady had serious seizure-like spasms after taking this.  Others developed Bell's palsy.  So forgive me, but it is not right to force people to take a potentially dangerous "medicine".

I voted for Trump, now I'm skeptical. But I'm sure as hell sure that this is not the right thing.

https://unapologeticrepublican.com/moderna-vaccine-side-effects-convulsions-spasms-watch/
Spasms (btw, I had seizures as a child. No thanks)

https://gulfnews.com/world/americas/fda-finds-moderna-covid-19-vaccine-highly-effective-but-points-out-bells-palsy-cases-1.1608116485618
Bell's palsy

But yea, "to hell with your concerns, let's break your credit score."
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: honk on January 29, 2021, 05:38:16 AM
He was being ironic. Also, if anyone is interested, I received my first dose of the vaccine last week, because I am (supposedly) a first responder. I'll let you know if I die.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on January 29, 2021, 05:38:53 AM
A mark on your forearm is not a hand or head.

A MAGA cap however...
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: JSS on January 29, 2021, 01:52:34 PM
Look, if you want a vaccine to feel safe, this is perfectly fine. I don't know you, and I'm okay with you doing anything to yourself. You want an eyeball piercing or tattoo? Go right ahead.  How about you try to extend me the same courtesy, hmmmm?

I'd be happy extending you that courtesy if you return it by staying indoors alone for the rest of your life so you don't infect anyone. You are free to not get the shot, but it's still selfish and you should rightly keep away from others as part of your choice.

I'm pretty sure the Bible, and Jesus said you should put some effort into caring about others, which includes doing things to ensure you don't spread a deadly disease during a pandemic.

Would Jesus get a vaccine to protect others? Would Jesus wear a mask if it would save lives? Would Jesus stand 6 feet away while giving a sermon if it would protect people?

WWJD?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on January 29, 2021, 02:17:08 PM
Look, if you want a vaccine to feel safe, this is perfectly fine. I don't know you, and I'm okay with you doing anything to yourself. You want an eyeball piercing or tattoo? Go right ahead.  How about you try to extend me the same courtesy, hmmmm?

I'd be happy extending you that courtesy if you return it by staying indoors alone for the rest of your life so you don't infect anyone. You are free to not get the shot, but it's still selfish and you should rightly keep away from others as part of your choice.

I'm pretty sure the Bible, and Jesus said you should put some effort into caring about others, which includes doing things to ensure you don't spread a deadly disease during a pandemic.

Would Jesus get a vaccine to protect others? Would Jesus wear a mask if it would save lives? Would Jesus stand 6 feet away while giving a sermon if it would protect people?

WWJD?
I'm not an anti-vaxxer but I don't see it as my moral duty to get this vaccine. If I'm called to have it I probably will, but I don't think it should be mandated.
I've never had a flu jab because I'm (relatively!) young and don't really feel I need one. If I get flu then I trust my body to deal with it.
I feel the same about Covid. If all the vulnerable people have been vaccinated then what does it matter if I have?
Mandating this - or making so that you don't have to get vaccinates but if you don't then you can't travel or go in restaurants or whatever. It seems to me that sets a pretty dangerous precedent in terms of people's freedom.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: JSS on January 29, 2021, 02:32:59 PM
Look, if you want a vaccine to feel safe, this is perfectly fine. I don't know you, and I'm okay with you doing anything to yourself. You want an eyeball piercing or tattoo? Go right ahead.  How about you try to extend me the same courtesy, hmmmm?

I'd be happy extending you that courtesy if you return it by staying indoors alone for the rest of your life so you don't infect anyone. You are free to not get the shot, but it's still selfish and you should rightly keep away from others as part of your choice.

I'm pretty sure the Bible, and Jesus said you should put some effort into caring about others, which includes doing things to ensure you don't spread a deadly disease during a pandemic.

Would Jesus get a vaccine to protect others? Would Jesus wear a mask if it would save lives? Would Jesus stand 6 feet away while giving a sermon if it would protect people?

WWJD?
I'm not an anti-vaxxer but I don't see it as my moral duty to get this vaccine. If I'm called to have it I probably will, but I don't think it should be mandated.
I've never had a flu jab because I'm (relatively!) young and don't really feel I need one. If I get flu then I trust my body to deal with it.
I feel the same about Covid. If all the vulnerable people have been vaccinated then what does it matter if I have?
Mandating this - or making so that you don't have to get vaccinates but if you don't then you can't travel or go in restaurants or whatever. It seems to me that sets a pretty dangerous precedent in terms of people's freedom.

Extend your reasoning to more people.

If only half the population gets the vaccine it's going to be useless. Remember it doesn't work 100%. If someone is surrounded by infected people, they will get it eventually, vaccine or not.  You need a very high percentage of the population to take it for it to work. You HAVE to get as many people on board.

You are mistaken in thinking that a vulnerable person is immune and perfectly fine if they get the vaccine. They are not. They are still at risk, from you. You can be healthy and catch COVID and spread it to other people, even if they are vaccinated.

Freedom is not absolute. You do not have the freedom to shoot me in the head for no reason. There are limits, and there are times when other freedoms, like the freedom not to die from a preventable disease that someone spreads because they feel their freedom is worth more than other peoples lives.

What is dangerous is allowing vaccinated people to go into packed planes and infect everyone. That's not freedom, that's deliberately choosing to harm others.

That at least, is how I see it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on January 29, 2021, 02:37:48 PM
Look, if you want a vaccine to feel safe, this is perfectly fine. I don't know you, and I'm okay with you doing anything to yourself. You want an eyeball piercing or tattoo? Go right ahead.  How about you try to extend me the same courtesy, hmmmm?

I'd be happy extending you that courtesy if you return it by staying indoors alone for the rest of your life so you don't infect anyone. You are free to not get the shot, but it's still selfish and you should rightly keep away from others as part of your choice.

I'm pretty sure the Bible, and Jesus said you should put some effort into caring about others, which includes doing things to ensure you don't spread a deadly disease during a pandemic.

Would Jesus get a vaccine to protect others? Would Jesus wear a mask if it would save lives? Would Jesus stand 6 feet away while giving a sermon if it would protect people?

WWJD?
I'm not an anti-vaxxer but I don't see it as my moral duty to get this vaccine. If I'm called to have it I probably will, but I don't think it should be mandated.
I've never had a flu jab because I'm (relatively!) young and don't really feel I need one. If I get flu then I trust my body to deal with it.
I feel the same about Covid. If all the vulnerable people have been vaccinated then what does it matter if I have?
Mandating this - or making so that you don't have to get vaccinates but if you don't then you can't travel or go in restaurants or whatever. It seems to me that sets a pretty dangerous precedent in terms of people's freedom.

I'm not going to give anyone too hard a time for being leery of the vaccine. I would say it's nowhere near as scary a prospect as it's being made out to be by some, but that's my take.

What I would say though, is that your reasoning, based on similarities to the flu vaccine, is flawed. You arent encouraged to get a yearly flu vaccine to protect yourself, a young healthy person. While it does offer you protection, giving you a personal benefit to getting vaccinated, the main reason for flu vaccination is to reduce the number of vulnerable people who catch it, so that we can collectively reduce the burden on our healthcare systems.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on January 29, 2021, 03:47:37 PM
I'm not going to give anyone too hard a time for being leery of the vaccine. I would say it's nowhere near as scary a prospect as it's being made out to be by some, but that's my take.

What I would say though, is that your reasoning, based on similarities to the flu vaccine, is flawed. You arent encouraged to get a yearly flu vaccine to protect yourself, a young healthy person. While it does offer you protection, giving you a personal benefit to getting vaccinated, the main reason for flu vaccination is to reduce the number of vulnerable people who catch it, so that we can collectively reduce the burden on our healthcare systems.
I don't think it's scary. When push comes to shove I'll probably have it. I just don't think it should be mandated.

I don't understand JSS's argument about it only being effective if more or less everyone has the vaccination. You seem to be arguing along the same lines.
I'm not young but I am under 50, in reasonably good health and I don't have any concerns about getting the 'Rona. I wouldn't go out of my way to and I have been following (pretty much) the government guidelines. But if I get it then I don't think I'll get that ill.

The reason Covid is a bad thing is that for older people, or for people with certain underlying health conditions, it has a significantly higher mortality rate than the flu.
That means a lot of people getting ill which places a big burden on health services and a lot of people dying which is obviously a bad thing.
Let's imagine no-one over 50 could get the disease then sure, this would be "a thing", some people would get ill and some would die, but not enough to make much of a blip in terms of general mortality stats. Certainly it wouldn't be something you'd want to shut down entire countries for (I'm not sure we should be doing that anyway, but that's a different discussion).

The point is if all the vulnerable people have the vaccine and it protects them from infection x% of the time then if x% is high then sure, some people will still get ill and some will die but as above it would hardly make a blip in the stats and wouldn't put an undue load on the health services. I certainly wouldn't be going out of my way to infect anyone, if I did start showing symptoms then I'd stay home - actually I did do that when at the start of all this I had a bit of a cold (which I don't think was Covid, but it's possible).

I agree that freedom is not absolute but I can't think of another example where it's been suggested that a certain vaccine or medicine is mandated. That seems like a line which shouldn't be crossed.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 29, 2021, 04:41:25 PM
JSS is talking about herd immunity which requires somewhere around 70% immunity to be effective iirc. There are people who are vulnerable but can’t get vaccinated who rely on herd immunity for safety.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on January 29, 2021, 04:47:30 PM
JSS - You get the vaccine, you are not immune.

JSS - If you get the vaccine, you can still pass it on to others.

JSS - We need to mandate the vaccine.

JSS - If you do not get the vaccine, you have no business conducting any business at all. Stay away.

One wonders how this could possibly be considered a legitimate position.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 29, 2021, 05:22:08 PM
It’s more nuanced than your meme presentation of it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on January 29, 2021, 05:48:12 PM
It’s more nuanced than your meme presentation of it.
Must be so nuanced you too are unable to elucidate further.

Looks like a case for the Dalai Lama.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on January 29, 2021, 05:50:06 PM
Here's an argument for:
Mutations.

1 year ago there was only 1 varient.  Then 2.  Now there's 4.
The longer the virus remains in circulation, the more it will mutate.  Vaccines will need to be altered constantly.  This will become the new Flu shot.  Except its more deadly.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: JSS on January 29, 2021, 05:52:39 PM
I don't understand JSS's argument about it only being effective if more or less everyone has the vaccination. You seem to be arguing along the same lines.
I'm not young but I am under 50, in reasonably good health and I don't have any concerns about getting the 'Rona. I wouldn't go out of my way to and I have been following (pretty much) the government guidelines. But if I get it then I don't think I'll get that ill.

I think what you are missing is you can get COVID, show no symptoms, and spread it to everyone you are in contact with for weeks.  Grocery stores, buses, planes, restaurants, and family members you visit.

By not taking the vaccine you are now a potential spreader to people who very well might die from it, and every one who gets it can spread it to others.

You are also ignoring all the evidence showing that even people who show no symptoms are suffering heart and lung damage, and we as of yet have no idea how the long term effects will play out.  You may be in serious trouble in ten years, we just don't know yet.

So yes, you might not get that obviously ill... but you are putting others in danger.  This is why you should get it, not just for yourself, but to help others.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on January 29, 2021, 06:05:03 PM
But why am I putting them in danger if they've had the vaccine?
Is it because it's not 100% effective or are you talking about people who can't have it?
I haven't seen the evidence about long term damage for people who are asymptomatic by the way - I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I've just not seen it. But I'd suggest that that can't be known by definition for a new virus because no-one has had it long term.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on January 29, 2021, 06:05:35 PM
I don't understand JSS's argument about it only being effective if more or less everyone has the vaccination. You seem to be arguing along the same lines.
I'm not young but I am under 50, in reasonably good health and I don't have any concerns about getting the 'Rona. I wouldn't go out of my way to and I have been following (pretty much) the government guidelines. But if I get it then I don't think I'll get that ill.

I think what you are missing is you can get COVID, show no symptoms, and spread it to everyone you are in contact with for weeks.  Grocery stores, buses, planes, restaurants, and family members you visit.

By not taking the vaccine you are now a potential spreader to people who very well might die from it, and every one who gets it can spread it to others.

You are also ignoring all the evidence showing that even people who show no symptoms are suffering heart and lung damage, and we as of yet have no idea how the long term effects will play out.  You may be in serious trouble in ten years, we just don't know yet.

So yes, you might not get that obviously ill... but you are putting others in danger.  This is why you should get it, not just for yourself, but to help others.
But according to you, if you get the vaccine, that is no guarantee of being immune and therefore not spreading it to others.

Therefore, other peoples' existence, by its very nature, poses a danger to you and others.

You are not making a very sound argument at all.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 29, 2021, 06:15:32 PM
But why am I putting them in danger if they've had the vaccine?
Is it because it's not 100% effective or are you talking about people who can't have it?
I haven't seen the evidence about long term damage for people who are asymptomatic by the way - I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I've just not seen it. But I'd suggest that that can't be known by definition for a new virus because no-one has had it long term.

Well they could know if it was long-term by the type of damage, but I have only seen that asymptomatic patients show signs of cardiovascular damage, not that it is long-term.

For example: https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200811/asymptomatic-covid-silent-but-maybe-not-harmless
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on January 29, 2021, 06:20:27 PM
But why am I putting them in danger if they've had the vaccine?
Is it because it's not 100% effective or are you talking about people who can't have it?
I haven't seen the evidence about long term damage for people who are asymptomatic by the way - I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I've just not seen it. But I'd suggest that that can't be known by definition for a new virus because no-one has had it long term.

Well they could know if it was long-term by the type of damage, but I have only seen that asymptomatic patients show signs of cardiovascular damage, not that it is long-term.

For example: https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200811/asymptomatic-covid-silent-but-maybe-not-harmless
"Maybe."

Seems like a very pertinent word, given the entirety of the article.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on January 29, 2021, 06:30:25 PM
But why am I putting them in danger if they've had the vaccine?
Is it because it's not 100% effective or are you talking about people who can't have it?
I haven't seen the evidence about long term damage for people who are asymptomatic by the way - I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I've just not seen it. But I'd suggest that that can't be known by definition for a new virus because no-one has had it long term.

Well they could know if it was long-term by the type of damage, but I have only seen that asymptomatic patients show signs of cardiovascular damage, not that it is long-term.

For example: https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200811/asymptomatic-covid-silent-but-maybe-not-harmless
"Maybe."

Seems like a very pertinent word, given the entirety of the article.

Maybe = not a 100% chance. Numerous professional athletes have struggled with lingering - non flu - symptoms of covid.

While the likelihood might be low, It doesnt matter how healthy you are, you still are at risk of lingering serious effects.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on January 29, 2021, 06:44:44 PM
But why am I putting them in danger if they've had the vaccine?
Is it because it's not 100% effective or are you talking about people who can't have it?
I haven't seen the evidence about long term damage for people who are asymptomatic by the way - I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I've just not seen it. But I'd suggest that that can't be known by definition for a new virus because no-one has had it long term.

Well they could know if it was long-term by the type of damage, but I have only seen that asymptomatic patients show signs of cardiovascular damage, not that it is long-term.

For example: https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200811/asymptomatic-covid-silent-but-maybe-not-harmless
"Maybe."

Seems like a very pertinent word, given the entirety of the article.

Maybe = not a 100% chance. Numerous professional athletes have struggled with lingering - non flu - symptoms of covid.

While the likelihood might be low, It doesnt matter how healthy you are, you still are at risk of lingering serious effects.
And we have been dealing with the issues of lingering side effects for all kinds of diseases in perpetuity.

This one for only a little over a year.

And it does matter how healthy you are.

According to the article.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 29, 2021, 06:47:33 PM
Anyone pretending that 95% immunity makes the vaccine not worthwhile either doesn’t understand what vaccines do or is stuck in an echo chamber. No vaccine is 100% and the COVID vaccine will only become improved upon.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on January 29, 2021, 06:54:59 PM
We've been dealing with the side effects of complex diseases, yes, but do you think people arent working towards ending that?
People somehow forget that vaccines have eradicated terrible diseases off the face of the planet. Sure we still have cancer, aids, ALS and many more debilitating sicknesses... but we've also put some equally terrible diseases in society's rear-view mirror.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on January 29, 2021, 08:33:42 PM
People somehow forget that vaccines have eradicated terrible diseases off the face of the planet.
Incorrect.

Literally one disease was vaccinated off the planet. That was small pox. Literally one. Not diseases. Just disease.

Sure we still have cancer, aids, ALS and many more debilitating sicknesses... but we've also put some equally terrible diseases in society's rear-view mirror.
What are you talking about? Small pox. That is it. Literally not one other single disease and certainly never coronavirus. It won't be possible because it lives in wild animals ... exactly like TB which we also can't get rid of.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 29, 2021, 08:40:05 PM
Vaccination programs have made mumps, measles, rubella and polio irrelevant to billions of people.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on January 29, 2021, 08:45:00 PM
Vaccination programs have made mumps, measles, rubella and polio irrelevant to billions of people.
And that's probably the reason they haven't been eradicated. Imagine the money made from giving billion of people vaccines. Compared to the $0 received for vaccinating precisely nobody against small pox.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on January 29, 2021, 08:48:00 PM
People somehow forget that vaccines have eradicated terrible diseases off the face of the planet.
Incorrect.

Literally one disease was vaccinated off the planet. That was small pox. Literally one. Not diseases. Just disease.

Sure we still have cancer, aids, ALS and many more debilitating sicknesses... but we've also put some equally terrible diseases in society's rear-view mirror.
What are you talking about? Small pox. That is it. Literally not one other single disease and certainly never coronavirus. It won't be possible because it lives in wild animals ... exactly like TB which we also can't get rid of.

Well it's literally two, rinderpest being the second. But thanks to vaccinations, polio, measles, rubella, yellow fever are all things I dont have to worry about. Not to mention additional vaccines I can take as precautions for other things like tetanus, or drugs to reduce my risk of disease like malaria while travelling.

Eradication admittedly has a strict definition, and we might not eradicate covid, for the reasons you brought up... but with enough success and uptake of vaccines, we can make covid a forgotten word. And that's a prospect I look forward to.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: JSS on January 29, 2021, 08:50:06 PM
But why am I putting them in danger if they've had the vaccine?
Is it because it's not 100% effective or are you talking about people who can't have it?
I haven't seen the evidence about long term damage for people who are asymptomatic by the way - I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I've just not seen it. But I'd suggest that that can't be known by definition for a new virus because no-one has had it long term.

Yes, it is not 100% effective. Nothing is 100% effective, and even one that is 95% does NOT mean you are immune. If you are exposed to it constantly every day, eventually you're going to get it.

That's why it's important for even healthy people to get it, you can still pass it on even to those that have been vaccinated.

Basically... it's all about transmission rates.  If the transmission rate on average is less than 1.0 it dies out, if it's greater it spreads.  So if on average the disease spreads to even 1.1 people for everyone that catches it, it's going to spread.  That's why you need in the upwards of 70% to 90% of the population to be vaccinated, to ensure that the spread gets under that 1.0 per person average.  Otherwise it's just going to keep killing people.

The math isn't exact, a lot is guesswork, but we know for sure that you need a HIGH percentage to take it. So every single person that doesn't take it pushes us closer to the pandemic staying out of control.

As for damage to people who are asymptomatic, here are some articles.

"In 20% of the patients, Nagel found scarring, indicating irreversible damage to the heart muscle. Even young, healthy, asymptomatic athletes are showing heart damage that was detected by scans months later."

 - https://www.biospace.com/article/sars-cov-2-causes-heart-damage-in-20-percent-of-people-with-mild-or-no-covid-19-symptoms/

"A trauma surgeon on the front lines of COVID-19 is finding lungs infected with the virus are more damaged than a smoker’s lung. She said it’s true even for asymptomatic cases."

 - https://www.cbs17.com/digital-stories/covid-19-infected-lungs-damaged-more-than-smokers-lung-doctor-says/


Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 29, 2021, 09:03:30 PM
Vaccination programs have made mumps, measles, rubella and polio irrelevant to billions of people.
And that's probably the reason they haven't been eradicated. Imagine the money made from giving billion of people vaccines. Compared to the $0 received for vaccinating precisely nobody against small pox.

You don’t think people like you, Total Lackey and AATW complaining about the oh so massive infringement on their rights has something to do with it?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on January 29, 2021, 09:20:29 PM
Well it's literally two, rinderpest being the second. But thanks to vaccinations, polio, measles, rubella, yellow fever are all things I dont have to worry about.
You never had to worry about rinderpest. It is a bovine disease.


Also why would you worry about yellow fever? Do you like in the Amazon basin or central Africa?


Vaccination programs have made mumps, measles, rubella and polio irrelevant to billions of people.
And that's probably the reason they haven't been eradicated. Imagine the money made from giving billion of people vaccines. Compared to the $0 received for vaccinating precisely nobody against small pox.

You don’t think people like you, Total Lackey and AATW complaining about the oh so massive infringement on their rights has something to do with it?
No.

I have been vaccinated for mumps, measles, rubella and polio. The vaccines were licensed, decades of testing has been done and if anything goes wrong, I can sue the pharma company because they haven't been given immunity from prosecution for those vaccines.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: JSS on January 29, 2021, 09:33:18 PM
Literally one disease was vaccinated off the planet. That was small pox. Literally one. Not diseases. Just disease.

Well it's literally two, rinderpest being the second. But thanks to vaccinations, polio, measles, rubella, yellow fever are all things I dont have to worry about.
You never had to worry about rinderpest. It is a bovine disease.

Nice attempt at a dodge here. The second disease isn't a disease even though you even called it a disease, because nobody 'had to worry about it'. You don't even know that's true, maybe some of us are farmers and indeed had to worry about it.

Just admit you were wrong, it will feel better in the long run. Just rip that band-aid off!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on January 29, 2021, 09:37:13 PM
I was like "What the hell is rinderpest?". And then I find out it doesn't effect humans. It should never have been in the conversation to begin with. So no, zero apology for that. It was a red herring.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: JSS on January 29, 2021, 10:05:18 PM
I was like "What the hell is rinderpest?". And then I find out it doesn't effect humans. It should never have been in the conversation to begin with. So no, zero apology for that. It was a red herring.

Oh, I see.  You didn't know there were two disease eradicated when you said one.  It's not that you were wrong, you just didn't know the facts.

Nobody asked you to apologize, just admit you were wrong. How strange you think you need to apologize for being wrong... yet another piece of the puzzle. No wonder you are so desperately trying to avoid admitting it.

You are aware that there are diseases that don't affect humans, right?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on January 29, 2021, 10:22:58 PM
Thork: you do know that Corona is a type of SARS virus, one which has been studied for decades?
Remember swine flu?  Bird flu?  Thats the same family as Covid19.

So the vaccine thats been developed was made based on the nearly 2 decades worth of reasearch into that family of viruses.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 29, 2021, 10:33:15 PM
Thork: you do know that Corona is a type of SARS virus, one which has been studied for decades?
Remember swine flu?  Bird flu?  Thats the same family as Covid19.

So the vaccine thats been developed was made based on the nearly 2 decades worth of reasearch into that family of viruses.

This. Thork doesn’t even really know what he is resisting.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on January 30, 2021, 08:18:24 AM
You are aware that there are diseases that don't affect humans, right?
Yes. Why would we bring that into a conversation about saving human lives? It is a ridiculous strawman. And you'll be stunned to learn that I am not a veterinary historian. And literally no one on this website had heard of rinderpest. And Iceman only found it after a google to say "ah haaa!" having been unaware that we haven't eradicated many diseases as he suggested. His argument is in shreds. Mine still stands. Our record of erradicating diseases is actually extremely poor. There is only one disease that you might have got, that is now eradicated. We are moving on. This strawman deserves no further discussion.

Thork: you do know that Corona is a type of SARS virus, one which has been studied for decades?
Remember swine flu?  Bird flu?  Thats the same family as Covid19.

So the vaccine thats been developed was made based on the nearly 2 decades worth of reasearch into that family of viruses.
I'd guess there are at least a clear 30 points between our respective IQs and you are the one in deficit. If you want to patronise me, you'll get the same back. I'm also aware of MERS which you get from camels. So what if they have been studied for decades? They are different diseases. Just because we can effectively treat some types of cancer doesn't mean we can treat others. Just because we have vaccines for some coronaviruses doesn't mean you can use their vaccines on this disease. You can't. You need a new vaccine. And in this case, a new and unlicensed one where the scientists themselves are unable to answer very basic questions such as ... do I need regular annual boosters? Do I need it, if I have had real coronavirus or am I already immune? Am I still contagious if I have been vaccinated?

If they can't answer those questions, I'm not so sure they can't answer questions like ... will the vaccine hit my sperm count? Can the vaccine give me autoimmune problems? Will this vaccine give me a brain tumour? Will the vaccine turn me into a homosexual 5 years after taking it?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on January 30, 2021, 08:49:45 AM
You are aware that there are diseases that don't affect humans, right?
Yes. Why would we bring that into a conversation about saving human lives? It is a ridiculous strawman. And you'll be stunned to learn that I am not a veterinary historian. And literally no one on this website had heard of rinderpest. And Iceman only found it after a google to say "ah haaa!" having been unaware that we haven't eradicated many diseases as he suggested. His argument is in shreds. Mine still stands. Our record of erradicating diseases is actually extremely poor. There is only one disease that you might have got, that is now eradicated. We are moving on. This strawman deserves no further discussion.

Thork: you do know that Corona is a type of SARS virus, one which has been studied for decades?
Remember swine flu?  Bird flu?  Thats the same family as Covid19.

So the vaccine thats been developed was made based on the nearly 2 decades worth of reasearch into that family of viruses.
I'd guess there are at least a clear 30 points between our respective IQs and you are the one in deficit. If you want to patronise me, you'll get the same back. I'm also aware of MERS which you get from camels. So what if they have been studied for decades? They are different diseases. Just because we can effectively treat some types of cancer doesn't mean we can treat others. Just because we have vaccines for some coronaviruses doesn't mean you can use their vaccines on this disease. You can't. You need a new vaccine. And in this case, a new and unlicensed one where the scientists themselves are unable to answer very basic questions such as ... do I need regular annual boosters? Do I need it, if I have had real coronavirus or am I already immune? Am I still contagious if I have been vaccinated?
How the disease reacts with a vaccine in the public and if the vaccine is safe are two different things. 

Quote
If they can't answer those questions, I'm not so sure they can't answer questions like ... will the vaccine hit my sperm count? Can the vaccine give me autoimmune problems? Will this vaccine give me a brain tumour? Will the vaccine turn me into a homosexual 5 years after taking it?

Its different, yes, but not so much as to require a completely different approach.  Some things are answered with time and how much it mutates.  Also, humans are all different so for starters...

1. Can't hit your sperm count if its already 0.
2. Only if your immune system is fucked up already.
3. No.
4. No.

The first two can probably happen if you have the right conditions in your body.  Good luck figuring out that combination.  The second do are you just being a dick, so they're no to everyone.

But everyone's body is different.  They can answer it generally (and some of them are answered) but sometimes people have abnormal reactions. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on January 30, 2021, 09:16:06 AM
How about you find me a medical citation saying this vaccine won't turn me gay? Because if it does, I won't be able to sue the pharma company as they have been given immunity from prosecution.

I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand. If a pharma company will not stand behind its own products with its wallet ... I'm not risking my health on those same products. The instant Pfizer, AstraZeneca, Janssen et al accept liability for their products ... I'll know they are safe to take. Not a moment before and not because you wrote 1) No, 2) No 3) No 4) No. You aren't going to pick up my medical/care costs if I get hurt either. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on January 30, 2021, 10:01:03 AM
How about you find me a medical citation saying this vaccine won't turn me gay? Because if it does, I won't be able to sue the pharma company as they have been given immunity from prosecution.

I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand. If a pharma company will not stand behind its own products with its wallet ... I'm not risking my health on those same products. The instant Pfizer, AstraZeneca, Janssen et al accept liability for their products ... I'll know they are safe to take. Not a moment before and not because you wrote 1) No, 2) No 3) No 4) No. You aren't going to pick up my medical/care costs if I get hurt either.

1. The NHS will.
2. Pretty sure if they did without a ton of asterixes, they'd be sued to bankrupcy because America is full of dicks.  But thats fine.  Thats your criteria and I respect it. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 30, 2021, 12:02:00 PM
Thork: you do know that Corona is a type of SARS virus, one which has been studied for decades?
Remember swine flu?  Bird flu?  Thats the same family as Covid19.

So the vaccine thats been developed was made based on the nearly 2 decades worth of reasearch into that family of viruses.
I'd guess there are at least a clear 30 points between our respective IQs and you are the one in deficit. If you want to patronise me, you'll get the same back. I'm also aware of MERS which you get from camels. So what if they have been studied for decades? They are different diseases. Just because we can effectively treat some types of cancer doesn't mean we can treat others. Just because we have vaccines for some coronaviruses doesn't mean you can use their vaccines on this disease. You can't. You need a new vaccine. And in this case, a new and unlicensed one where the scientists themselves are unable to answer very basic questions such as ... do I need regular annual boosters? Do I need it, if I have had real coronavirus or am I already immune? Am I still contagious if I have been vaccinated?

A lot of that data will become very clear soon. As for your last question no vaccine prevents you from carrying a viral load, it reduces the time between introduction of the virus and immune response and the effectiveness of the immune response.

Quote
If they can't answer those questions, I'm not so sure they can't answer questions like ... will the vaccine hit my sperm count? Can the vaccine give me autoimmune problems? Will this vaccine give me a brain tumour? Will the vaccine turn me into a homosexual 5 years after taking it?

The vaccine is largely based on previous vaccines and they are extremely confident that there aren’t long term side effects. Maybe you should research that so you can put your mind at rest.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: JSS on January 30, 2021, 12:14:23 PM
And literally no one on this website had heard of rinderpest.

Here you go being wrong again. That's twice in a row now.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on January 30, 2021, 01:33:09 PM
I said eradicated when I should have said "made completely irrelevant for billions of people" as Rama pointed out. You said literally one disease had been officially eradicated, when the actual number is two.

Now you're complaining that no one is going to pay you is something goes wrong even though Dave told you that national health programs have all already stepped up to back to vaccine and provide benefits.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: jack44556677 on January 30, 2021, 05:53:23 PM
Which 2?

I heard smallpox was back on the market...
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: JSS on January 30, 2021, 07:04:55 PM
Which 2?

I heard smallpox was back on the market...

Source? Are you talking about the theoretical reoccurrence due to the tundra melting?

If it did come back, would you get the vaccine?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on January 31, 2021, 08:31:05 AM
1. The NHS will.
The NHS will what? If I get a life changing side effect from one of these vaccines, I should be able to sue that company for £millions to ensure my care costs are covered forever due to their negligence. So that I can have disabled ramps put in my home, a 24 hour a day carer, shower and toilet adaptations, a guide dog if I need it, a transit van with a wheel chair lift, a bed with a hoist ... you know shit you need if you get seriously hurt. All the NHS will do is put me to the back of a 10 month queue to see a doctor who will prescribe me something for the pain. It is not the same thing at all.

The vaccine is largely based on previous vaccines and they are extremely confident that there aren’t long term side effects.
Not confident enough to put their share price on the line should they need to compensate people for any damage caused. They can say anything they like. That they swear on their mother's grave, that they promise their firstborn, they can swear on the holy bible ... until they back their products with their money and accept liability for them, I'm not taking them. I think only an idiot would, unless you were extremely vulnerable, which I am not. 

If it did come back, would you get the vaccine?
Fuck yeah. I'd trample a bingo hall full of an old ladies to get it. Smallpox is a dreadful disease. It leaves permanent scarring, can cause blindness ... and that's if you are lucky enough not to die from it. Smallpox (aka red plague) ravaged ancient Rome. Huge death tolls. But the difference is
1) smallpox is dangerous to me where coronavirus isn't
2) smallpox vaccine is licensed and manufacturers accept liability for those drugs.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: JSS on January 31, 2021, 12:45:44 PM
If it did come back, would you get the vaccine?
Fuck yeah. I'd trample a bingo hall full of an old ladies to get it. Smallpox is a dreadful disease. It leaves permanent scarring, can cause blindness ... and that's if you are lucky enough not to die from it. Smallpox (aka red plague) ravaged ancient Rome. Huge death tolls. But the difference is
1) smallpox is dangerous to me where coronavirus isn't
2) smallpox vaccine is licensed and manufacturers accept liability for those drugs.

You could still die from COVID, and it's still looking likely you could suffer permanent damage even without symptoms. Coincidentally enough, heart and lung scarring has been found. We know nerve damage is also happening.

COVID would have milled massive numbers of people if it happened back in Rome too. The only reason it's as controlled as it is, is because of modern medicine and at least SOME people using masks and social distancing.

So you won't take the COVID vaccine because you won't get ENOUGH money in the unlikely event it somehow makes you sick, and would rather risk getting COVID which has a actual chance of killing you plus damaging your heart or lungs in which case you won't get any money.

Humans are terrible at risk assessment, I submit you as exhibit A.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on January 31, 2021, 03:14:41 PM
1. The NHS will.
The NHS will what? If I get a life changing side effect from one of these vaccines, I should be able to sue that company for £millions to ensure my care costs are covered forever due to their negligence. So that I can have disabled ramps put in my home, a 24 hour a day carer, shower and toilet adaptations, a guide dog if I need it, a transit van with a wheel chair lift, a bed with a hoist ... you know shit you need if you get seriously hurt. All the NHS will do is put me to the back of a 10 month queue to see a doctor who will prescribe me something for the pain. It is not the same thing at all.
Do you really think the drug manufacturer is gonna settle your suit?  Most likely you'll be offered some small sum of money and told to take it or be out lawyered.  This ain't their first rodeo.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on January 31, 2021, 04:35:22 PM
You don’t think people like you, Total Lackey and AATW complaining about the oh so massive infringement on their rights has something to do with it?

I can’t think of another example where it has been mandated that a person take a certain medicine or vaccine outside of the more authoritarian regimes.

One could argue that there is a moral imperative that should compel people to take it, but making laws to mandate it - or making rules which means life basically becomes impossible for those who decline to take it - seems to be crossing a line.

You could argue that it’s a line which should be crossed but remember we are talking about a disease which has a relatively low fatality rate. It’s about 1% across the population of a developed country although that becomes higher the older people get.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on January 31, 2021, 04:35:50 PM
Do you really think the drug manufacturer is gonna settle your suit?  Most likely you'll be offered some small sum of money and told to take it or be out lawyered.  This ain't their first rodeo.
??? class action. They'd settle as fast as possible before more people joined and would try to keep publicity to a minimum.


Humans are terrible at risk assessment, I submit you as exhibit A.
Using the following tool (feel free, have a go yourself) I have a 1:83333 chance of dying from covid. A 1:4405 chance if I end up in hospital.
https://www.qcovid.org/Home/AcademicLicence?licencedUrl=%2FPatientInformation%2FPatientInformation

The algorithm doesn't take into account things like how much exercise I do (quite a lot), how sickly I am in general (I'm not), and how bad my mother's cooking was when I was a child giving me a cast iron immune system from all the times she food poisoned me. Also this uni will want to over inflate the odds rather than play them down. My risk is probably more like a lottery win than the numbers they have given me. I'm in no danger at all.

How's your risk?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on January 31, 2021, 04:46:21 PM
You don’t think people like you, Total Lackey and AATW complaining about the oh so massive infringement on their rights has something to do with it?

I can’t think of another example where it has been mandated that a person take a certain medicine or vaccine outside of the more authoritarian regimes.

In Canada you can’t go to public school without getting a suite of vaccines. That kind of mandate seems reasonable.

Quote
One could argue that there is a moral imperative that should compel people to take it, but making laws to mandate it - or making rules which means life basically becomes impossible for those who decline to take it - seems to be crossing a line.

You could argue that it’s a line which should be crossed but remember we are talking about a disease which has a relatively low fatality rate. It’s about 1% across the population of a developed country although that becomes higher the older people get.

Let’s also remember it’s an oddly contagious disease and a low fatality rate helps it propagate broadly.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on January 31, 2021, 04:55:14 PM
Do you really think the drug manufacturer is gonna settle your suit?  Most likely you'll be offered some small sum of money and told to take it or be out lawyered.  This ain't their first rodeo.
??? class action. They'd settle as fast as possible before more people joined and would try to keep publicity to a minimum.
The problem is you'd need alot of people with the same issue.  If there are big side effects, its likely to a small group.  Small enough to be covered under the "Well, you're the .01%" in side effects.

Yes they'd settle quick.  They'd offer you some small amount in pounds (maybe a year's salary) and tell you to sign on the dotted line or they'll let you take em to court and see how it goes.



Also: my risk is apparently 1:100,000 of death.
1:4049 of being hospitalized.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on January 31, 2021, 05:13:12 PM
Do you really think the drug manufacturer is gonna settle your suit?  Most likely you'll be offered some small sum of money and told to take it or be out lawyered.  This ain't their first rodeo.
??? class action. They'd settle as fast as possible before more people joined and would try to keep publicity to a minimum.
The problem is you'd need alot of people with the same issue.  If there are big side effects, its likely to a small group.  Small enough to be covered under the "Well, you're the .01%" in side effects.

Yes they'd settle quick.  They'd offer you some small amount in pounds (maybe a year's salary) and tell you to sign on the dotted line or they'll let you take em to court and see how it goes.



Also: my risk is apparently 1:100,000 of death.
1:4049 of being hospitalized.

Dave, a quick google would tell you that you are talking nonsense. I'm tired of responding to things you just make up.
These three ladies got $800,000 each.  (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/mar/03/johnson-johnson-ordered-to-pay-26m-in-damages-over-vaginal-mesh-implants#:~:text=Vaginal%20mesh%20implants-,Johnson%20%26%20Johnson%20ordered%20to%20pay%20%242.6m,damages%20over%20vaginal%20mesh%20implants&text=Pharmaceutical%20giant%20Johnson%20%26%20Johnson%20has,received%20faulty%20pelvic%20mesh%20implants.) Not maybe a years' salary and they are a small group.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on January 31, 2021, 05:45:31 PM
Do you really think the drug manufacturer is gonna settle your suit?  Most likely you'll be offered some small sum of money and told to take it or be out lawyered.  This ain't their first rodeo.
??? class action. They'd settle as fast as possible before more people joined and would try to keep publicity to a minimum.
The problem is you'd need alot of people with the same issue.  If there are big side effects, its likely to a small group.  Small enough to be covered under the "Well, you're the .01%" in side effects.

Yes they'd settle quick.  They'd offer you some small amount in pounds (maybe a year's salary) and tell you to sign on the dotted line or they'll let you take em to court and see how it goes.



Also: my risk is apparently 1:100,000 of death.
1:4049 of being hospitalized.

Dave, a quick google would tell you that you are talking nonsense. I'm tired of responding to things you just make up.
These three ladies got $800,000 each.  (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/mar/03/johnson-johnson-ordered-to-pay-26m-in-damages-over-vaginal-mesh-implants#:~:text=Vaginal%20mesh%20implants-,Johnson%20%26%20Johnson%20ordered%20to%20pay%20%242.6m,damages%20over%20vaginal%20mesh%20implants&text=Pharmaceutical%20giant%20Johnson%20%26%20Johnson%20has,received%20faulty%20pelvic%20mesh%20implants.) Not maybe a years' salary and they are a small group.

This particular case was part of a 1300+ person class action suit. Of which, it's part of $8 Billion worth of class action lawsuits against J&J and other manufacturers of this product. I'm not sure how this is even relevant to the discussion.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on January 31, 2021, 06:57:06 PM
Do you really think the drug manufacturer is gonna settle your suit?  Most likely you'll be offered some small sum of money and told to take it or be out lawyered.  This ain't their first rodeo.
??? class action. They'd settle as fast as possible before more people joined and would try to keep publicity to a minimum.
The problem is you'd need alot of people with the same issue.  If there are big side effects, its likely to a small group.  Small enough to be covered under the "Well, you're the .01%" in side effects.

Yes they'd settle quick.  They'd offer you some small amount in pounds (maybe a year's salary) and tell you to sign on the dotted line or they'll let you take em to court and see how it goes.



Also: my risk is apparently 1:100,000 of death.
1:4049 of being hospitalized.

Dave, a quick google would tell you that you are talking nonsense. I'm tired of responding to things you just make up.
These three ladies got $800,000 each.  (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/mar/03/johnson-johnson-ordered-to-pay-26m-in-damages-over-vaginal-mesh-implants#:~:text=Vaginal%20mesh%20implants-,Johnson%20%26%20Johnson%20ordered%20to%20pay%20%242.6m,damages%20over%20vaginal%20mesh%20implants&text=Pharmaceutical%20giant%20Johnson%20%26%20Johnson%20has,received%20faulty%20pelvic%20mesh%20implants.) Not maybe a years' salary and they are a small group.
I'm pulling it from coloquial info.


But fine.  Big payouts.  So why are you so afraid of no labels?  If they don't say it'll make you gay, and it does, its worse for them than if they say "warning, may cause homosexuality."
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: JSS on January 31, 2021, 08:08:56 PM
Humans are terrible at risk assessment, I submit you as exhibit A.
Using the following tool (feel free, have a go yourself) I have a 1:83333 chance of dying from covid. A 1:4405 chance if I end up in hospital.
https://www.qcovid.org/Home/AcademicLicence?licencedUrl=%2FPatientInformation%2FPatientInformation

The algorithm doesn't take into account things like how much exercise I do (quite a lot), how sickly I am in general (I'm not), and how bad my mother's cooking was when I was a child giving me a cast iron immune system from all the times she food poisoned me. Also this uni will want to over inflate the odds rather than play them down. My risk is probably more like a lottery win than the numbers they have given me. I'm in no danger at all.

How's your risk?

The only reason that first number is so low is because everyone ELSE is protecting you by getting the vaccine.  If everyone caught it, there would be a lot more deaths.

So you having a low, but not even close to zero chance of catching it means you think it's fine to be selfish and spread it to other people who will die from it?

Tell me, what's the risk of dying from the vaccine?  Zero so far, right?  So far I have not seen any reports of a confirmed fatality from the vaccine.  So that 1 in 4405 chance looks a lot bigger now, doesn't it?

And you are still deciding to put other peopel at high risk of death because you don't think you will get enough money if you need to sue them? How selfish can you get?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on January 31, 2021, 08:22:56 PM
Just an FYI, to date, approximately 95m people have been vaccinated worldwide.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on January 31, 2021, 10:09:29 PM
So you having a low, but not even close to zero chance of catching it means you think it's fine to be selfish and spread it to other people who will die from it?
You're acting like if Thork doesn't have the vaccine he'll be licking lamp-posts to make sure he catches Covid and then going into care homes to cough in people's faces.

If most people have the vaccine then surely the rate of infection will be quite low in the population anyway, which makes the chances of non-vaccinated people getting it lower. And if they do get it then because most vulnerable people will be vaccinated the chances of them catching it from someone who isn't vaccinated will be low.

To be clear, I'm not saying I won't have it. I am saying I think it's crossing a line to mandate it. A line I don't think a government should be crossing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: JSS on January 31, 2021, 11:03:24 PM
So you having a low, but not even close to zero chance of catching it means you think it's fine to be selfish and spread it to other people who will die from it?
You're acting like if Thork doesn't have the vaccine he'll be licking lamp-posts to make sure he catches Covid and then going into care homes to cough in people's faces.

If most people have the vaccine then surely the rate of infection will be quite low in the population anyway, which makes the chances of non-vaccinated people getting it lower. And if they do get it then because most vulnerable people will be vaccinated the chances of them catching it from someone who isn't vaccinated will be low.

To be clear, I'm not saying I won't have it. I am saying I think it's crossing a line to mandate it. A line I don't think a government should be crossing.

If enough people are like Thork and don't get vaccinated, then we won't reach the levels required to stop it and it will continue to spread and kill people.

If Thork was the only one not taking it I wouldn't care, but we run the very real risk that enough people like him will refuse and we will fail to contain it.

Remember, one person can spread it to dozens, and then hundreds. Just a single unvaccinated person can spread it far enough to where you have people dying.

And yeah, I honestly don't have any confidence at all he wouldn't intentionally spread it if he thinks he personally won't suffer.  He's already willing to avoid it and put peoples lives at risk, so that's not out of character at all.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on January 31, 2021, 11:06:31 PM
So you having a low, but not even close to zero chance of catching it means you think it's fine to be selfish and spread it to other people who will die from it?
You're acting like if Thork doesn't have the vaccine he'll be licking lamp-posts to make sure he catches Covid and then going into care homes to cough in people's faces.

Yes, there is a distinct chance that is exactly what he will be doing.

If most people have the vaccine then surely the rate of infection will be quite low in the population anyway, which makes the chances of non-vaccinated people getting it lower. And if they do get it then because most vulnerable people will be vaccinated the chances of them catching it from someone who isn't vaccinated will be low.

To be clear, I'm not saying I won't have it. I am saying I think it's crossing a line to mandate it. A line I don't think a government should be crossing.

What governments are "mandating" it? I'm not aware of that happening here in the US. In the UK?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on February 01, 2021, 02:20:30 AM
it's just ThE fLu
(https://i.imgur.com/CoZ3sKx.jpg)

Kid was projected to be a star. Hope he makes it through and gets a chance to take his shot in the bigs.

It's not just an old person's disease. This kid is one example of many where someone in their physical prime is completely derailed by the effects of covid.

Death rates are low, infections are high, complications are common and can be terrible.

Please consider getting the vaccine when it is available to you.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on February 01, 2021, 08:18:18 AM
If enough people are like Thork and don't get vaccinated, then we won't reach the levels required to stop it and it will continue to spread and kill people.
Kill who? People who chose not to be vaccinated? That's their choice, huh? And they made the same choice as me so they can hardly complain.

If Thork was the only one not taking it I wouldn't care, but we run the very real risk that enough people like him will refuse and we will fail to contain it.
Contain it from whom? If everyone who wants a vaccine can have one, what is the problem?

Remember, one person can spread it to dozens, and then hundreds.
Oh yes, I should bear in mind how a virus works. Thank you, Captain Obvious.

Just a single unvaccinated person can spread it far enough to where you have people dying.
Spread it to who? Other unvaccinated people who CHOSE not to be vaccinated ... probably because they realise they aren't at risk in the first place?

And yeah, I honestly don't have any confidence at all he wouldn't intentionally spread it if he thinks he personally won't suffer.  He's already willing to avoid it and put peoples lives at risk, so that's not out of character at all.
I'd cough all over you in a heart beat.  >:(

It's not just an old person's disease. This kid is one example of many where someone in their physical prime is completely derailed by the effects of covid.

Death rates are low, infections are high, complications are common and can be terrible.

Please consider getting the vaccine when it is available to you.
This is like saying ... "Young people can be killed in car accidents. Please don't drive." ... we haven't banned cars. I'm not interested in edge cases. This kid is in the news because what happened to him is so rare. Literally no one would report that I grew a sunflower in my garden last year. But, if that sunflower was 30 feet tall, suddenly I get to sit on a sofa with Phillip and Holly because my sunflower is so rare in its hugeness.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: JSS on February 01, 2021, 09:31:48 AM
If Thork was the only one not taking it I wouldn't care, but we run the very real risk that enough people like him will refuse and we will fail to contain it.
Contain it from whom? If everyone who wants a vaccine can have one, what is the problem?

Not everyone who wants one can get one, and the vaccine isn't 100% effective, none are.  So you can still spread it to others. That's the problem.

The problem is being selfish can kill people.  Some of us understand that and actually care about other people.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on February 01, 2021, 11:10:00 AM
Thork still doesn’t want to accept that some of the people at the highest risk of complications from COVID can’t take the vaccine, and/or the vaccine won’t work as effectively for them due to compromised immune systems. In his mind they should just be content to never come in to contact with the outside world.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on February 01, 2021, 01:32:05 PM
Quote from: British government
Can you give COVID-19 to anyone if you have had the vaccine?
We do not yet know whether it will stop you from catching and passing on the virus
Source (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccination-what-to-expect-after-vaccination/what-to-expect-after-your-covid-19-vaccination#:~:text=The%20vaccine%20cannot%20give%20you,to%20reduce%20this%20risk.)

That's how little they know about these vaccines or if they even work very well. I could take the vaccine and still infect people. My taking the vaccine or not has no bearing on anyone else at all.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on February 01, 2021, 01:42:59 PM
As long as you're not one of these asshats....

(https://i.imgur.com/6R8dnfb.jpg)

Not wanting to get the vaccine is one thing, but stopping others from getting vaccinated just seems a bit.... crazy
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on February 01, 2021, 02:07:58 PM
I could take the vaccine and still infect people.

Welcome to literally every vaccine ever.

Quote
My taking the vaccine or not has no bearing on anyone else at all.

Welcome to literally every Dunning-Kreuger, ever.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: JSS on February 01, 2021, 02:11:28 PM
I could take the vaccine and still infect people. My taking the vaccine or not has no bearing on anyone else at all.

Your not taking the vaccine makes you ignorant and selfish, and puts others in danger.  Congratulations, you're a terrible person.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on February 01, 2021, 02:17:34 PM
I could take the vaccine and still infect people. My taking the vaccine or not has no bearing on anyone else at all.

Your not taking the vaccine makes you ignorant and selfish, and puts others in danger. 

To be fair, the first two qualities precipitated not taking the vaccine. I think it’s fair that people are wary of a pharmaceutical that was rushed through approval. It’s an industry that has shat on the public enough times that it’s a logical knee-jerk. It’s Thork’s dogmatic persona that is difficult to sympathize with alongside his basic misunderstanding of how vaccine’s work or how viruses spread.

Quote
Congratulations, you're a terrible person.


He is.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on February 01, 2021, 02:18:40 PM
I could take the vaccine and still infect people.

Welcome to literally every vaccine ever.

I am responding to ignorant comments such as
Not everyone who wants one can get one, and the vaccine isn't 100% effective, none are.  So you can still spread it to others. That's the problem.

The problem is being selfish can kill people.  Some of us understand that and actually care about other people.

JSS seems to think if I get vaccinated, it stops me spreading the disease. It doesn't. He says I'm selfish. He's wrong. Me being vaccinated or not only effects one person ... me. And I have weighed the risk ... practically zero from covid ... against a vaccine that is unlicensed where the manufacturer accepts zero liability where those same manufacturers are unable to answer very basic questions about their drug at this point in time ... and I think I'm best off just giving this a swerve. It is easy to get caught up in mass hysteria but if you can keep your head whilst all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you ... you will be a man, my son.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on February 01, 2021, 02:35:02 PM
I could take the vaccine and still infect people.

Welcome to literally every vaccine ever.

I am responding to ignorant comments such as

JSS seems to think if I get vaccinated, it stops me spreading the disease.

He literally said:
...the vaccine isn't 100% effective, none are.  So you can still spread it to others.


So literally what in the fuck are you talking about?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on February 01, 2021, 03:11:13 PM
If the vaccine doesn't stop me spreading the disease ... why the fuck do you want me to take it?  >o<


It is like talking to a bunch of pre-schoolers.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on February 01, 2021, 03:13:57 PM
If the vaccine doesn't stop me spreading the disease ... why the fuck do you want me to take it?  >o<


It is like talking to a bunch of pre-schoolers.

We don't want you to die.

Also, contact spreading is a thing. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on February 01, 2021, 03:25:13 PM
We don't want you to die.
Well now I know you are lying.

Also, contact spreading is a thing.
Nope. I'm not explaining it again. You have sources, you have the reasoned arguments. Read it again or just let it die. I'm not taking the vaccine. I have sound reasoning for this. I've explained it. Finito.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on February 01, 2021, 03:28:48 PM
If the vaccine doesn't stop me spreading the disease ... why the fuck do you want me to take it?  >o<


It is like talking to a bunch of pre-schoolers.

If you acknowledge that you accused JSS of holding a position when he explicitly expressed the opposite, we can move on to this.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on February 01, 2021, 04:27:03 PM
We don't want you to die.
Well now I know you are lying.
Every family needs a creepy, grumpy uncle.  You're it. :P

Quote
Also, contact spreading is a thing.
Nope. I'm not explaining it again. You have sources, you have the reasoned arguments. Read it again or just let it die. I'm not taking the vaccine. I have sound reasoning for this. I've explained it. Finito.

I'm not trying to argue about taking the vaccine.  Just saying that, from a legal standpoint, a vaccine will not stop you from spreading it via contact.  Ie you touch an infected handle then touch someone's hand who then picks their nose.  So its not effective at stopping the spread (if that spread is contact).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: JSS on February 01, 2021, 04:36:55 PM
JSS seems to think if I get vaccinated, it stops me spreading the disease. It doesn't. He says I'm selfish. He's wrong. Me being vaccinated or not only effects one person ... me.

No, it affects everyone you might infect due to not getting the vaccine.  I already said it's not 100% effective, but 95% is pretty damn good, it's what is needed to halt the spread and stop it from killing so many people. But only if enough people take it.

But you care about nobody but yourself.  What you do affects others, and if it makes you feel guilty maybe you should just take the damn vaccine instead of trying to convince yourself it's all fine and nothing to worry about.

Don't worry... hopefully enough other people will take it to keep you and those you care about safe since you're unwilling or too ignorant or simply too cowardly.  All three?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: junker on February 01, 2021, 04:47:27 PM
I recently recovered from covid. 2/10 would not recommend. My symptoms were moderate with only a couple of days bad enough worry me that it might get real bad. Then it went away. Assuming I don't have scarred lungs or damaged organs I don't know about, it was much easier than the actual flu.

Still going to get the vaccine, but am much less worried about dying in the meantime. Given the number of variants we are already seeing, I imagine covid is just going to become a part of life, much like the flu where the annual flu shot is based on the most prevalent strain(s) that year.

I can't really fault someone for not wanting the current vaccine if their decision is based on phase 3 trials being much shorter than any other medication on the market and doing their own risk analysis. I am not sure how many of those people there are compared to the people who think there is a 5G modem in the vaccine and that the government will be monitoring and controlling you forever (not sure why they would even need that since everyone has a smartphone).

TL;DR - Got the 'vid, didn't die. Will get the vaccine, but don't blame certain people for not getting it. The anti-vax crowd are giant douches and will eventually remove themselves from the gene pool when something more deadly eventually comes along.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on February 01, 2021, 04:51:35 PM
I don’t blame informed people for not getting it, just people like Thork.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on February 01, 2021, 05:28:18 PM
I recently recovered from covid.

Still going to get the vaccine.

Why? You are already immune. How do you think you recovered from the disease instead of dying? Your body developed antibodies to overcome coronavirus. What does a vaccine do? Helps you develop antibodies to overcome the virus.

I feel like the collective world has take an IQ bath and washed away all common sense and powers of reasoning.


I already said it's not 100% effective, but 95% is pretty damn good,
It is 95% effective at provoking an immune response from you after 2 doses. It is not 95% effective at stopping you spreading the disease. These are not the same things. This is like saying I can long jump 5 metres. Therefore I can high jump 5 metres. You are comparing apples and pears.

Getting vaccinated does not make me less contagious. I already linked you my government telling me that on their 'terrify the public' website.


For those still struggling.
You get the vaccine. It has the same protein coating as the actual disease. Your body goes ... mmm ... ok. That's not part of my body. Its foreign. I'll kill it. Bodies are pretty xenophobic like that.
Now, your body remembers that protein. The next time it sees it it jumps into action and says "I already told you to fucking die!  >o<".

This is where it gets complicated. Put your finger under the words and mouth them out loud for easier comprehension. You go out after being vaccinated and someone coughs on you. The coronavirus enters your body. Its right there. You are now contagious and can give other people the disease. Your body makes short work of it, having seen it before. But you coughed on a little old lady and she died anyway. The vaccine made no difference.
Three weeks later you go out and you French kiss a sailor. His beard feels warm and comforting. But your body suddenly realises something is wrong. You got covid again. "Die motherfucking covid  >o<" yells your body and kills it all over again. But not before you sneezed on a tramp and killed him too.

BEING VACCINATED DOESN'T PROTECT OTHER PEOPLE FROM YOU. IT ONLY PROTECTS YOU.

If you already had the disease, you already have that protection. The proof of this being that you aren't dead. IE you had an immune response that was successful. Ergo, you don't need to be vaccinated. Any 'scientist' claiming you do is lying to either flog more drugs, frighten people who had a flu and thought they had covid or because they are dumb ... which many scientists are these days because when you send literally everyone to uni and give almost all a degree ... you lower the bar to the point stupid scientists are everywhere.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on February 01, 2021, 05:39:51 PM
It’s not true that being vaccinated doesn’t inhibit the spread of a disease at all. Limiting your viral load reduces the chance of transmission.  A quick and efficient immune response limits the window in which you could possibly be infectious.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: junker on February 01, 2021, 05:43:34 PM
Why? You are already immune. How do you think you recovered from the disease instead of dying? Your body developed antibodies to overcome coronavirus. What does a vaccine do? Helps you develop antibodies to overcome the virus.
I am currently "trusting the science" in that the recent data I have seen implies the antibodies may not last all that long. If that isn't the case as more data comes in, I will reevaluate. I doubt I will be able to get the vaccine for at least several months anyway, so I will have plenty of time to consider my position.


I feel like the collective world has take an IQ bath and washed away all common sense and powers of reasoning.
Yes, anyone who doesn't share your opinion must be a low-IQ, irrational smoothbrain incapable of reason.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on February 01, 2021, 05:48:54 PM
It’s not true that being vaccinated doesn’t inhibit the spread of a disease at all. Limiting your viral load reduces the chance of transmission.  A quick and efficient immune response limits the window in which you could possibly be infectious.
The manufacturer has literally said that they don't know that. How is it that you know that? You know more about Pfizer's drugs than Pfizer?

How do you know more than all the leading experts?
Quote from: https://fortune.com/2020/12/22/covid-vaccine-infectious-face-masks-transmission/
It’s surprising, but experts agree: The tens of thousands of people being vaccinated against the coronavirus right now may still be able to carry and transmit the SARS-CoV-2 virus to others, despite being well-protected against the symptoms of COVID-19 themselves. That means they must still wear masks and practice social distancing to protect those around them.

I am currently "trusting the science" in that the recent data I have seen implies the antibodies may not last all that long.
Oh, you're looking for a life-long subscription to Pfizer's latest drug. An annual booster like a little old lady getting her flu shots. I need to become a Pfizer shareholder. I had no idea people were this foolish.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: garygreen on February 01, 2021, 06:03:56 PM
science: we're not certain of the full extent to which the vaccine will prevent the spread of covid, but preventing yourself from becoming a covid factory is probably helpful.

thork: this is apodictic proof that the vaccine cannot prevent transmission!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111111111111111111111111111111123
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on February 01, 2021, 06:05:40 PM
Thork, it seems like you've allowed yourself to understand just enough to form a really shitty opinion on the subject   ::)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on February 01, 2021, 06:12:27 PM
Thork, it seems like you've allowed yourself to understand just enough to form a really shitty opinion on the subject   ::)
The penny has dropped, hasn't it? I'm right. And now you see how stupid getting the vaccine is if you are healthy. Which by the way You are going to be encouraged to get this vaccine every single year for the rest of forever.

Every year, regular as clockwork, you'll queue up and stick some pharma gunge you don't need into you and someone somewhere will get rich.

Now you don't like that I'm right. I'm going against all the angels you love like Biden and Merkel and the WHO and Ursula von der thingymabob. But they backed themselves into a corner with these lockdowns and the only credibility they can muster to unlock their countries is to pretend this vaccine is a magic bullet. And yes, it puts you on the evil side of the world. The Thork side. One day I'll have you voting for a nationalist party. Slowly slowly ... one post at a time.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on February 01, 2021, 06:27:16 PM
Thork, it seems like you've allowed yourself to understand just enough to form a really shitty opinion on the subject   ::)
The penny has dropped, hasn't it? I'm right. And now you see how stupid getting the vaccine is if you are healthy. Which by the way You are going to be encouraged to get this vaccine every single year for the rest of forever.

Every year, regular as clockwork, you'll queue up and stick some pharma gunge you don't need into you and someone somewhere will get rich.

Now you don't like that I'm right. I'm going against all the angels you love like Biden and Merkel and the WHO and Ursula von der thingymabob. But they backed themselves into a corner with these lockdowns and the only credibility they can muster to unlock their countries is to pretend this vaccine is a magic bullet. And yes, it puts you on the evil side of the world. The Thork side. One day I'll have you voting for a nationalist party. Slowly slowly ... one post at a time.

Is today the day where you just take Rushy's lead and don't read the posts you are responding to?  It really seems like that is what you are doing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: JSS on February 01, 2021, 08:24:28 PM
I already linked you my government telling me that on their 'terrify the public' website.

Anti-vaxxers have to be some of the most ignorant, selfish, people on the planet.  I suppose we have modern medicine to thank for keeping these people alive despite their attempts to off themselves and everyone around them.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on February 03, 2021, 02:02:06 AM
RIP Captain Sir Tom Moore. Hard to imagine someone achieving that much at his age. Covid claimed another good good one.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on February 03, 2021, 02:07:41 AM
RIP Captain Sir Tom Moore. Hard to imagine someone achieving that much at his age. Covid claimed another good good one.

FFS! He was 101 years old. It can't be a surprise he died. In his last year he got promoted to Colonel, got a telegram fromr The Queen for being 100, became a celebrity, got knighted by The Queen and received never ending praise ... for walking around his garden a few times! He can't complain about going out like that.

However, he claimed to be raising money for the NHS. You know what that is also called? A voluntary tax contribution. He fooled people into giving extra one off tax payments. Thank God for Covid. Finally starting to see some positives.  >:(
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on February 03, 2021, 02:24:45 AM
RIP Captain Sir Tom Moore. Hard to imagine someone achieving that much at his age. Covid claimed another good good one.

FFS! He was 101 years old. It can't be a surprise he died. In his last year he got promoted to Colonel, got a telegram fromr The Queen for being 100, became a celebrity, got knighted by The Queen and received never ending praise ... for walking around his garden a few times! He can't complain about going out like that.

However, he claimed to be raising money for the NHS. You know what that is also called? A voluntary tax contribution. He fooled people into giving extra one off tax payments. Thank God for Covid. Finally starting to see some positives.  >:(

He was 100. It's not a surprise. Yep he had a big year.  Glad we can add 'raising £32M for the NHS' to the list of things Thork doesn't support! Par for the course I guess :-\
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on February 03, 2021, 02:35:27 AM
RIP Captain Sir Tom Moore. Hard to imagine someone achieving that much at his age. Covid claimed another good good one.

FFS! He was 101 years old. It can't be a surprise he died. In his last year he got promoted to Colonel, got a telegram fromr The Queen for being 100, became a celebrity, got knighted by The Queen and received never ending praise ... for walking around his garden a few times! He can't complain about going out like that.

However, he claimed to be raising money for the NHS. You know what that is also called? A voluntary tax contribution. He fooled people into giving extra one off tax payments. Thank God for Covid. Finally starting to see some positives.  >:(

He was 100. It's not a surprise. Yep he had a big year.  Glad we can add 'raising £32M for the NHS' to the list of things Thork doesn't support! Par for the course I guess :-\

It is a money hole. If you gave money for that, the government likely just took it and spent it on welfare or farmer subsidies. If you give the government £32m for healthcare ... they immediately think oh, we can now reallocate £32m for my pet project and build 2000 unicycle lanes in Birmingham or whatever stupid shit they think up next.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Pete Svarrior on February 03, 2021, 10:06:02 AM
ITT: Thork does not know the difference between NHS Charities Together and the NHS. Some Briton, you are. ;)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on February 03, 2021, 10:17:53 AM
ITT: Thork does not know the difference between NHS Charities Together and the NHS. Some Briton, you are. ;)

NHS Charities cherry pick the best causes to screw the public out of money. The government then picks up the tab for everything that is left behind. Ergo, give £10 to an NHS charity and the government needs to find £10 less to provide a health service. It's a voluntary tax contribution.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on February 03, 2021, 10:23:18 AM
Obviously he expressed it all in a particularly Thorky way, but there is a kernel of a reasonable point in there.
Isn't the NHS funded by my tax? Isn't that what National Insurance is for? If the government are under-funding it to the point that charities need to prop it up then shouldn't that be addressed.
Not having a go at Captain Tom, he was just a sweet old man who wanted to help out and good for him.
Although it is a bit random how what he did went viral, he ended up with a Number 1 single (although Michael Ball was doing a lot of the heavy lifting there) and getting a knighthood.
There were other people doing similar things and although some of them briefly made the news in the reflected glow of Captain Tom, they didn't go viral so ended up being forgotten.

But it was a feel good story of last year and there weren't many of those around so, overall, RIP Captain Tom
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Pete Svarrior on February 03, 2021, 10:40:22 AM
If the government are under-funding it to the point that charities need to prop it up then shouldn't that be addressed.
Tory voters gonna vote Tory.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on February 03, 2021, 10:41:06 AM
there is a kernel of a reasonable point in there.
I would have written colonel ... you know, captain Tom being promoted to colonel and all.
https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2020-05-19/from-captain-to-colonel-to-sir-tom-a-knighthood-for-100-year-old-charity-champion

That would have been both topical and funny and linked the whole thing together better. People would have read it and attributed an extra 5 IQ points to your online persona.

It should also be mentioned that despite the advice being to stay at home, self isolate and generally behave yourself if you are old and weak, Captain Tom ignored all that advice and took a holiday to Barbados where he promptly caught coronavirus from a black man and then died ... ironically in the hands of the very NHS that raised money for. Karma is on form this week.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on February 03, 2021, 11:01:41 AM
there is a kernel of a reasonable point in there.
I would have written colonel ... you know, captain Tom being promoted to colonel and all.
I did consider that joke tbf but decided I'd leave the opportunity to make that joke to someone less popular who needed the points.
No need to thank me.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on February 04, 2021, 11:48:27 AM
Now they want to give him a statue outside parliament.  ::)
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/showbiz-news/amanda-holden-launches-petition-captain-19763295
Or alternatively on a plinth in Trafalgar square
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/nick-knowles-calls-captain-tom-115323369.html
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9218261/Memorial-Captain-Tom-Matt-Hancock-says-war-hero-place-history-honoured.html

Seemingly a wooden carving
(https://i2-prod.lincolnshirelive.co.uk/incoming/article4092134.ece/ALTERNATES/s810/0_MH_HMB_300420LECHOTomCookeWoodCarving_03.jpg)
A bronze bust
(https://metro.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/PRI_158199955.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&zoom=1&resize=644%2C405)
Artisitic tributes
(https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/webimg/QVNIMTE0NjE2NzQ4.jpg?&width=640)
A life size balloon model
(https://www.expressandstar.com/resizer/IGHINUyoRKnacRqesQScuP6Lk2g=/1200x0/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/mna/SZQEV5SJNJDAXMGUM6VWR6XMGU.jpg)
A free holiday to Barbados
(https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/1/590x/Captain-Tom-1392458.webp?r=1612350118430)
A knighthood
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/22A4/production/_113486880_hi062504223.jpg)
A military promotion to Colonel
(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/bcc771eccdc5e456cb87e73421b1a22518df76cd/26_276_1602_961/master/1602.jpg?width=620&quality=45&auto=format&fit=max&dpr=2&s=f9536eb2e10f11ea12b81e0cf7d0cbce)
A national hand clap outside of people's front doors
(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/37a073c4e27be47fe920dcb9f8b9f30bd9cce632/0_264_3295_1977/master/3295.jpg?width=700&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=0e6140ef76b9d4271ee371eae3462cba)
The lowering of the flag at 10 Downing Street to mark his passing
(https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/NINTCHDBPICT000633976409-1.jpg?w=1240)
Private condolence messages from the Queen
(https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Queen.png?w=1240)
Private Condolence messages from the Prime minister
(https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Boris-1.png?w=1240)
A national out pouring on Twitter
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13921434/captain-tom-dead-tributes-boris-johnson/

Gracing the cover of all major publications
(https://media.gq-magazine.co.uk/photos/5fae9506ea28115f15805bf1/master/w_2563,c_limit/MOTYOnlineCropsAndHP_Tom%20HP%20Cover.jpg)
150,000 birthday cards
(https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/NINTCHDBPICT000579994974-1.jpg?w=1240)
A Pride of Britain award
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/04/23/10/27547062-8248487-image-a-108_1587635977184.jpg)
A National Salute award
(https://www.bedfordtoday.co.uk/webimg/T0FLMTIzOTk0MzAx.jpg?&width=640)
The Freedom of the city of London
(https://www.cityam.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/1211369410.jpg)
A WWE championship belt ???
(https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/171/590x/1274897_1.webp?r=1588144410822)
A number one hit with Michael Ball
(https://www.officialcharts.com/media/658200/captain-tom-moore-and-michael-ball-youll-never-walk-alone-article-image-cropped.jpg?width=796&mode=stretch)
A Guinness world record award for being the oldest person to have a number one hit in the UK
(https://img.etimg.com/thumb/msid-75373040,width-650,imgsize-194569,,resizemode-4,quality-100/untitled-5.jpg)
2 Spitfires from the RAF completing 3 laps around his house
(https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/NINTCHDBPICT000580114193.jpg?w=1240)
A book deal
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5ea7fcd52a381e6e5fa4ca17/1589384957850-0KMHC4WBFW758QL0ZHD6/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kFHjxEXAQ2f6TTgMOkA4ktl7gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z5QPOohDIaIeljMHgDF5CVlOqpeNLcJ80NK65_fV7S1UVwPCZGaVP2HgzGceWphwEuVb7xN3DS32Fu0CoQ_0_D9MW9u6oXQZQicHHG1WEE6fg/capt_tom_w_book.png)
A train named after him
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Captain_Tom_Moore_Train_Naming.jpg)
A lorry sent to his house by the army on his birthday
(https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/NINTCHDBPICT000580109525.jpg?w=1240img)
A tribute from the Royal mail on everyone's letters
(https://metro.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/PRI_150165284.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&zoom=1&resize=540%2C341)
A second flypast by the Red Arrows
(https://assets.change.org/photos/8/pl/vg/ayPLVGrGaBrwlMb-800x450-noPad.jpg?1587119429)
and a tribute in the London New Year's firework display
(https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article23246907.ece/ALTERNATES/s1200d/0_New-Years-celebrations.jpg)

Are simply not enough by way of a thank you for a man who walked around his back garden a few times!  >o<

Honestly, this country is filled with imbeciles. They'll be declaring him a saint next.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: honk on February 04, 2021, 03:50:47 PM
Why are you so mad about this?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on February 04, 2021, 03:55:55 PM
"Screw Sir Tom! Screw the government and the people and businesses and the queen and the media and the military and anyone else who found joy and pride in an old man doing a tiny deed with a modest goal and sparking a sense of hopefulness and national pride and unity during the early days of a declared global pandemic! I held the door for an old lady the other day and I didnt get a medal >:("

~Thork.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on February 04, 2021, 04:26:07 PM
Why are you so mad about this?

A number of reasons. 2 days ago the government encouraged the nation to stand outside their front doors clapping for Captain Tom. Some of my neighbours were out there clapping like trained seals. This virtue signalling nonsense is so ugly. The 'look at me, I'm good, I'm clapping' ... it grinds my gears. I want to shout ... "You aren't good. You're a fucking narcissist and you aren't doing this for Captain Tom. You are doing it because you think it improves your social standing.".

It is also another mass hysteria. Like Coronavirus. Everyone is all "Captain Tom is the saviour of the nation. A Legend. The essence of Britishness. A shining example" and I want to shout out ... "All he did was a sponsored walk around his garden, that's it". But no. No amount of praise and worship is enough for this man. Its just so ruddy stupid.

"Screw Sir Tom! Screw the government and the people and businesses and the queen and the media and the military and anyone else who found joy and pride in an old man doing a tiny deed with a modest goal and sparking a sense of hopefulness and national pride and unity during the early days of a declared global pandemic! I held the door for an old lady the other day and I didnt get a medal >:("

~Thork.
You think Captain Tom needs a statue on the fourth plinth in Trafalgar Square? That plinth was built for William IV. A king! And we are going to plonk a pensioner on there because he did a sponsored walk? I'd like you to know historically suggestions for the 4th plinth have been Nelson Mandela, Margaret Thatcher and Queen Elizabeth II. None of them were deemed worthy. But Captain Tom! Well that's different.

The whole thing has nothing to do with Captain Tom. Captain Tom was killed by the NHS. They gave him coronavirus when he went to hospital and he was dead a few days later. It is all about people saying ... "I suggested we give this guy something (something paid for by other people usually). Aren't I good?" This thirst to be recognised as good ... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! This isn't good. Doing something good is good. Suggesting someone else is good to bathe in their reflected glory is cheap and cynical. I really find it distasteful. It's the exact same and done by the exact same people who speak out on behalf to sexism, racism, social injustice etc. Its never about the cause. It is always about them. They'll change the cause like they change their underwear. What always remains the same is that its them trying to get attention.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on February 04, 2021, 04:54:48 PM
They'll change the cause like they change their underwear. What always remains the same is that its them trying to get attention.
But being a low rent Katie Hopkins posting awful stuff to get attention is OK, is that right?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on February 04, 2021, 05:12:00 PM
They'll change the cause like they change their underwear. What always remains the same is that its them trying to get attention.
But being a low rent Katie Hopkins posting awful stuff to get attention is OK, is that right?
Saying that the emperor is not wearing any clothes is not 'awful stuff'.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on February 04, 2021, 05:13:43 PM
They'll change the cause like they change their underwear. What always remains the same is that its them trying to get attention.
But being a low rent Katie Hopkins posting awful stuff to get attention is OK, is that right?
Saying that the emperor is not wearing any clothes is not 'awful stuff'.


It should also be mentioned that despite the advice being to stay at home, self isolate and generally behave yourself if you are old and weak, Captain Tom ignored all that advice and took a holiday to Barbados where he promptly caught coronavirus from a black man and then died ... ironically in the hands of the very NHS that raised money for. Karma is on form this week.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on February 04, 2021, 05:16:03 PM
They'll change the cause like they change their underwear. What always remains the same is that its them trying to get attention.
But being a low rent Katie Hopkins posting awful stuff to get attention is OK, is that right?
Saying that the emperor is not wearing any clothes is not 'awful stuff'.

Propagating racist and anti-semitic viewpoints is though!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: JSS on February 04, 2021, 05:41:10 PM
It is also another mass hysteria. Like Coronavirus.

I wasn't aware mass hysteria could kill millions of people.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on February 04, 2021, 06:07:09 PM
They'll change the cause like they change their underwear. What always remains the same is that its them trying to get attention.
But being a low rent Katie Hopkins posting awful stuff to get attention is OK, is that right?
Saying that the emperor is not wearing any clothes is not 'awful stuff'.


It should also be mentioned that despite the advice being to stay at home, self isolate and generally behave yourself if you are old and weak, Captain Tom ignored all that advice and took a holiday to Barbados where he promptly caught coronavirus from a black man and then died ... ironically in the hands of the very NHS that raised money for. Karma is on form this week.

It's a shame you can't buy a sense of humour on Amazon.


Propagating racist and anti-semitic viewpoints is though!
I've at least 20,000 posts on this site and the old site ... all labelled Thork accounts. Find me an anti-Semitic post. Of the 4 times I can see I even mentioned the word 'jew' - now 5 times ... once was in a thread about bankers and rich Jewish families - a single post, once now split from its original thread and totally out of context about werewolf, and twice as a throw away remark. It is hardly a pattern of anti-semitic viewpoints is it?

I wasn't aware mass hysteria could kill millions of people.
Well its put millions behind in their cancer treatment around the world, upped suicides, reduced the amount of exercise people can take as all the leisure centres/gyms etc are closed, upped the amount of junk food and alcohol being consumed and this is nothing to speak of the damage to education, jobs and the economy. Bunching your knickers over a benign disease is madness.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on February 04, 2021, 08:43:09 PM
Bunching your knickers over a benign disease is madness.

So how deadly would a pandemic have to be before you would support public efforts to mitigate its spread?   If it was an Ebola outbreak, would you cooperate?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: JSS on February 04, 2021, 09:24:29 PM
I wasn't aware mass hysteria could kill millions of people.
Well its put millions behind in their cancer treatment around the world, upped suicides, reduced the amount of exercise people can take as all the leisure centres/gyms etc are closed, upped the amount of junk food and alcohol being consumed and this is nothing to speak of the damage to education, jobs and the economy. Bunching your knickers over a benign disease is madness.

When you have statistics that prove more people died because they ate too much junk food than would have died of COVID had we not taken all these steps, then you can talk.

Remember, the millions of people that died did so even with all our efforts.  Uncontrolled, it could have a hundred million dead. I doubt we had a hundred million suicides.

And countries that took strict measures took LESS damage to their economies than ones that didn't and are now running rampant with the disease.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on February 04, 2021, 09:43:45 PM
Have some wisdom, Thork:

"It's my estimation that every man ever got a statue made of him was one kind of sommbitch or another. Ain't about you, Jayne. It's about what they need." -Malcom Renalds (Firefly)

Basically, the people need s hero to rally around.  An idea to celebrate, to boost morale.  That old guy became it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on February 04, 2021, 10:11:52 PM
Bunching your knickers over a benign disease is madness.

So how deadly would a pandemic have to be before you would support public efforts to mitigate its spread?   If it was an Ebola outbreak, would you cooperate?
We didn't lock down for ebola. We didn't lock down for AIDS.

Thork's guide to good governance ....

If you answer yes to any of the following questions, lock the country down. Otherwise, stop bunching your knickers.

1) If you survive the disease does it cause lasting damage such as blindness, deafness, gangrene, brain damage or paralysis?
2) Does it cause birth defects?
3) Does it have a high infant mortality rate?
4) Will it kill more than 5% of the population?
5) Do most sufferers have horrific symptoms such as agony, psychosis or coma?

If you answered No to every single question ... you shouldn't shut the country.


Uncontrolled, it could have a hundred million dead.
Utter poppycock. Find me a citation for a hundred million dead from covid without lockdowns.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on February 04, 2021, 10:19:24 PM
We didn't lock down for ebola. We didn't lock down for AIDS.
You don't catch those things if someone coughs on you.
If you had to bum someone to catch Corona there probably wouldn't have been lockdowns (apart from in your mum's house, lolz).
Seriously though, I do think lockdowns were the wrong response because the mortality rate is so low (it's about 1% all told, and if you're under 50 it's about 0%).
But I do think it's a situation which deserved a response, even if I think that the response was all wrong.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on February 04, 2021, 10:22:44 PM
The response was obvious. Shield the weak. Allow them to hide away if they choose to do so ... let everyone else get on with their lives.


Then instead of all that stupid furlough money spent, build 30 field hospitals if you like. Create the finest health response on earth. Focus on care homes and the long term ill. It would have been way cheaper and not ruined so many lives.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on February 04, 2021, 10:26:28 PM
The response was obvious. Shield the weak. Allow them to hide away if they choose to do so ... let everyone else get on with their lives.
Basically right.
Although we live in a complicated interconnected society where that's a bit easier said than done.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on February 04, 2021, 11:16:44 PM

4) Will it kill more than 5% of the population?


In America that would be 15 million people.

But I will admit at least Thork has a specific, documented plan with metrics. Light years ahead of Trumps lack of plan.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: caffemocha33 on May 06, 2021, 12:58:39 AM
I have no issues with this.  Its no different than a digital drivers license, digital boarding passes, digital payment, etc...

Its basically big tech taking paper documentation (which you'd need to have on you) and making it a secure digital copy that officials will accept instead of a piece of paper you printed out.

Do you believe that there's going to be any specific benefits in enforcing vaccine passports? Do you see any issue with it at all?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on May 06, 2021, 01:18:54 AM
Banning access to public spaces seems problematic to me. Banning access to private business, not so much. Especially something like air travel, which is a massive channel for transmission.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on May 06, 2021, 06:51:02 AM
Banning access to public spaces seems problematic to me. Banning access to private business, not so much.

Do you think a restaurant should be able to ask you if you have HIV? What about Grinder? Do you think Grinder should be able to check if you have HIV? Do you think you should have to send an HIV passport to use Grinder or Tinder or any other dating service to sign up? They are private businesses. Do you think other people using the service should receive text messages from state backed phone apps telling them they have been near someone with HIV? Could be very useful information after a first date to keep you safe. Unlike coronavirus, HIV is life changing for most people.

Should schools test all the kids for HIV? Kids are forever picking up cuts and bruises.

Should you need an HIV passport to go into a night club or a bar? I mean, you could infect other patrons ... especially as many are intoxicated.


If the answer is "No Thork, my liberal panties are bunching because you'd be persecuting the gays" ... then we can agree your medical history is private, companies do not have a right to it and that is why doctors swear a Hippocratic oath.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 06, 2021, 06:58:02 AM
Holy shit! How hard is this to understand?
You catch HIV from bumming, not from being coughed on by someone near you.
Stop with the false equivalence nonsense.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on May 06, 2021, 08:41:54 AM
And so if you join Grinder ... an app designed to help you get bummed ... should you have an HIV passport? Its not a false equivalence at all.

You have two pandemics. One, far more deadly than the other, and yet all the focus is on persecuting people with a sniffle and not those who can give you a lethal meat injection.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on May 06, 2021, 09:01:06 AM
I think private businesses shouldn’t be forced to serve anyone. The government shouldn’t contact me about a possible case contact unless there is two party consent. Seems really simple to me.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on May 06, 2021, 09:24:24 AM
I think private businesses shouldn’t be forced to serve anyone.

I'll give you a bit more time to think about that one.

(https://theracecardproject.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/no-dogs-no-blacks-no-irish-sign.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 06, 2021, 10:21:54 AM
And so if you join Grinder ... an app designed to help you get bummed ... should you have an HIV passport? Its not a false equivalence at all.
I still think that's a false equivalence. No-one is suggesting Covid passports for Tinder, or meeting up with friends. What individuals do is up to them.
If you were booking a place at a gay orgy then I'd think a clean bill of health would be a reasonable requirement.

I'm generally against Covid Passports by the way. I had my jab because I can see this sort of thing happening, overall don't think the vaccine is going to harm me and having it will probably make it easier for me to travel. I succumbed to peer pressure somewhat because it seemed like the pragmatic thing to do.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on May 06, 2021, 10:35:39 AM
I still think that's a false equivalence. No-one is suggesting Covid passports for Tinder, or meeting up with friends. What individuals do is up to them.
??? Then why have we just spent months in lockdown?

No, you cannot just get on a train or go to work or meet in a pub. What you do as an individual is not up to you.

It is not a false equivalence to compare two pandemics where one results in health passports and the other does not. Businesses are literally looking to discriminate against me based on my health records. Maybe businesses should remove expensive disabled ramps and toilets and just ban those unable to prove they can walk? Or maybe every restaurant should demand you provide a stool sample in advance and get checked for campylobacter and salmonella before coming into their restaurant? Maybe you should be stopped and checked for verrucae at your local pool before getting in? And why just covid? Why not prove you don't have flu? That kills old people too.

Covid passports are this fucking shit again (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Cards_Act_2006) via the backdoor.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on May 06, 2021, 10:37:01 AM
I think private businesses shouldn’t be forced to serve anyone. The government shouldn’t contact me about a possible case contact unless there is two party consent. Seems really simple to me.
Simple enough that this should be the litmus test, regardless of why service is denied.

We look forward to your next request for a wedding cake.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on May 06, 2021, 10:54:37 AM
I think private businesses shouldn’t be forced to serve anyone. The government shouldn’t contact me about a possible case contact unless there is two party consent. Seems really simple to me.
Simple enough that this should be the litmus test, regardless of why service is denied.

We look forward to your next request for a wedding cake.

I dont have a philisophical problem with not baking a cake for same sex couples if you don't want.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: J-Man on May 07, 2021, 09:11:02 PM
What I like about Covid is not wearing a mask, not getting sick, not getting a jab and receiving a blood clot.  I did get a whole bunch of free money to party with the babes, hug and kiss at the bars, while dancing up a storm. Woot its been fun and now we get to watch Satan bring all these folks to the throne of God for Judgement. Burn Bitchez Burn

Vaccine, not even close !  Jesus is the only cure........
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on May 07, 2021, 09:31:40 PM
No, this is The Cure.
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/quietus_production/images/articles/26614/The-Cure-press-1000-web-optimised_1560322249_crop_550x330.jpg)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: J-Man on May 26, 2021, 03:58:29 PM
First Jabber now DEAD...more Satan lovers to come. The shot is designed to kill...period !

https://twitter.com/WMLabour/status/1396865956203352064?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1396865956203352064%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thegatewaypundit.com%2F2021%2F05%2Ffirst-man-get-covid-19-vaccine-uk-dies-unrelated-illness%2F

We're sorry to hear of the death of Coventry Labour stalwart Bill Shakespeare. Bill made global headlines as 1st first man to have Covid vaccine. His decades of service to the party were recently recognised by @Keir_Starmer
. Our thoughts are with Joy and Bill's family & friends.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 26, 2021, 04:07:09 PM
81 year old man dies shock exclusive.
The jab took 6 months to kill him. It's not very effective a poison.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on May 26, 2021, 04:26:51 PM
81 year old man dies shock exclusive.
The jab took 6 months to kill him. It's not very effective a poison.
It does show what a waste of time and money.

He spent the last 6 months of his life locked away, unable to see his family and then died promptly afterwards. Why are we 'saving' these people again?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on May 26, 2021, 04:33:19 PM
81 year old man dies shock exclusive.
The jab took 6 months to kill him. It's not very effective a poison.
It does show what a waste of time and money.

He spent the last 6 months of his life locked away, unable to see his family and then died promptly afterwards. Why are we 'saving' these people again?

Now please make sure you aren’t cherry picking anecdotes to suit your narrative by showing the numbers for all those who haven’t had adverse side effects.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on May 26, 2021, 04:35:32 PM
81 year old man dies shock exclusive.
The jab took 6 months to kill him. It's not very effective a poison.
It does show what a waste of time and money.

He spent the last 6 months of his life locked away, unable to see his family and then died promptly afterwards. Why are we 'saving' these people again?

Now please make sure you aren’t cherry picking anecdotes to suit your narrative by showing the numbers for all those who haven’t had adverse side effects.
I didn't pick the anecdote. I'm just responding to the anecdote provided.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 26, 2021, 04:37:05 PM
81 year old man dies shock exclusive.
The jab took 6 months to kill him. It's not very effective a poison.
It does show what a waste of time and money.

He spent the last 6 months of his life locked away, unable to see his family and then died promptly afterwards. Why are we 'saving' these people again?
Overall I think our vaccine rollout has been one of the few things our idiot government have got right.
BUT...I agree that this obsession with vaccinating every single person is wrong.
But hey, he might have had another 10 years or more so I don't think that him being old should have been a reason for him not getting it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on May 26, 2021, 04:44:29 PM
81 year old man dies shock exclusive.
The jab took 6 months to kill him. It's not very effective a poison.
It does show what a waste of time and money.

He spent the last 6 months of his life locked away, unable to see his family and then died promptly afterwards. Why are we 'saving' these people again?

Apparently he had a stroke last year and "Mr Shakespeare, who had lived in Brownshill Green, was an inpatient on the hospital's frailty ward at the time of his first jab." That's why he was "locked away", as you say. And then had another stroke recently and died.

Are you saying we shouldn't waste vaccines on the old and frail and just let them perhaps catch covid and die on a respirator in a semi-coma?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on May 26, 2021, 04:51:10 PM
Yep. I think you got it.

People die all the time.

Covid did indeed kill my brother-in-law and my sister this past year, but not the disease itself.

Both died because of the bullshit peddled by the likes of you, like the mask BS and advocating for lockdowns, precluding performance of routine medical care and regular doctor visits, which they both needed.

You people killed them both.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on May 26, 2021, 06:05:44 PM
Overall I think our vaccine rollout has been one of the few things our idiot government have got right.
BUT...I agree that this obsession with vaccinating every single person is wrong.

Only if you think herd immunity isn't worth achieving.  You won't need ubiquitous vaccination for that, but much larger numbers than you are seeing so far.

Yep. I think you got it.

People die all the time.

Covid did indeed kill my brother-in-law and my sister this past year, but not the disease itself.

Both died because of the bullshit peddled by the likes of you, like the mask BS and advocating for lockdowns, precluding performance of routine medical care and regular doctor visits, which they both needed.

You people killed them both.
Sorry for your loss.

Man, you sound like identitarian victim-crying SJW.  Can you cite a specific law or ordinance that precluded essential healthcare?  Sounds like bullshit.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on May 26, 2021, 06:08:36 PM
Overall I think our vaccine rollout has been one of the few things our idiot government have got right.
BUT...I agree that this obsession with vaccinating every single person is wrong.

Only if you think herd immunity isn't worth achieving.  You won't need ubiquitous vaccination for that, but much larger numbers than you are seeing so far.

Yep. I think you got it.

People die all the time.

Covid did indeed kill my brother-in-law and my sister this past year, but not the disease itself.

Both died because of the bullshit peddled by the likes of you, like the mask BS and advocating for lockdowns, precluding performance of routine medical care and regular doctor visits, which they both needed.

You people killed them both.
Sorry for your loss.

Man, you sound like identitarian victim-crying SJW.  Can you cite a specific law or ordinance that precluded essential healthcare?  Sounds like bullshit.
One, we know you are sorry.

Two, meaningless apologies are just that.

You know damn well you were proponent of lockdowns and you know damn well that routine doctor visits and routine medical care visits were suspended in the US.

Just more BS on your part.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on May 26, 2021, 06:24:45 PM
UAB Medicine News
 
Is it okay to postpone regular appointments, wellness checks, treatments, and surgeries recommended by my health care professional because of COVID-19?

It is important to continue taking care of your health and medical conditions during the COVID-19 pandemic. Please do not delay getting emergency care for any health condition. For specific medical concerns, we recommend calling and discussing them with your health care provider. Additionally, one may ask about alternative ways to access medical care during this time, such as telehealth visits.


Were they on Medicare? Trump did this, which was a good thing:

President Trump Expands Telehealth Benefits for Medicare Beneficiaries During COVID-19 Outbreak
Mar 17, 2020

https://www.cms.gov/newsroom/press-releases/president-trump-expands-telehealth-benefits-medicare-beneficiaries-during-covid-19-outbreak

I had a routine telehealth visit last year. It wasn't ideal, but it led to a positive resolution.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: J-Man on May 26, 2021, 09:07:27 PM
 Electro • a day ago

This just proves that the "vaccine" is working and doing it's intended purpose.

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    FiaT__LuX Electro • a day ago

    For 70 years they talked about 'The Great Culling' and bragged about how they were going to kill off 5/6 ths of the worlds population through 'Vaccines'... Now it's all just a coincidence.
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        Chuck Farly FiaT__LuX • a day ago • edited

The "vaccine" reprograms the mRNA in your cells to produce SPIKE PROTEINS , these toxic proteins will eventually kill you by stroke, blood clot, pulmonary embolism, respiratory illness or mad cow disease! That is how all the animal test subjects died!


https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/first-man-get-covid-19-vaccine-uk-dies-unrelated-illness/
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on May 26, 2021, 09:16:20 PM
The "vaccine" reprograms the mRNA in your cells to produce SPIKE PROTEINS , these toxic proteins will eventually kill you by stroke, blood clot, pulmonary embolism, respiratory illness or mad cow disease! That is how all the animal test subjects died!


https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/first-man-get-covid-19-vaccine-uk-dies-unrelated-illness/

Yes, let's all follow J-Man's lead, and trust the words of gateway pundit or just draw out own conclusions based on whatever else we feel like regarding complex medical and cellular biology topics! Medical experts are stupid!

It's actually a complex form of eugenics, where they're thinning the herd by eliminating those with weak health and other genetic deficiencies. The powers that be (not the puppet governments they have us elect) are developing a genetically superior human race  so that our future fighters in the upcoming alien conflicts will be more resilient and we wont have to worry as much about biological collateral damage, given that they will be much more technologically superior to us, we will be forced to defend ourselves using augmented biological weapons.

Theyve effectively catered an efficient us against them narrative throughout this plandemic so that eyes will be away from the real story.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on May 26, 2021, 09:41:46 PM
Overall I think our vaccine rollout has been one of the few things our idiot government have got right.
BUT...I agree that this obsession with vaccinating every single person is wrong.

Only if you think herd immunity isn't worth achieving.  You won't need ubiquitous vaccination for that, but much larger numbers than you are seeing so far.

Yep. I think you got it.

People die all the time.

Covid did indeed kill my brother-in-law and my sister this past year, but not the disease itself.

Both died because of the bullshit peddled by the likes of you, like the mask BS and advocating for lockdowns, precluding performance of routine medical care and regular doctor visits, which they both needed.

You people killed them both.
Sorry for your loss.

Man, you sound like identitarian victim-crying SJW.  Can you cite a specific law or ordinance that precluded essential healthcare?  Sounds like bullshit.
One, we know you are sorry.

Two, meaningless apologies are just that.

You know damn well you were proponent of lockdowns and you know damn well that routine doctor visits and routine medical care visits were suspended in the US.

Just more BS on your part.

Your sister and brother-in-law died because they didn't go to a doctor's regular visit?
What is it that killed them?  Cancer? 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on May 27, 2021, 10:21:47 AM
Overall I think our vaccine rollout has been one of the few things our idiot government have got right.
BUT...I agree that this obsession with vaccinating every single person is wrong.

Only if you think herd immunity isn't worth achieving.  You won't need ubiquitous vaccination for that, but much larger numbers than you are seeing so far.

Yep. I think you got it.

People die all the time.

Covid did indeed kill my brother-in-law and my sister this past year, but not the disease itself.

Both died because of the bullshit peddled by the likes of you, like the mask BS and advocating for lockdowns, precluding performance of routine medical care and regular doctor visits, which they both needed.

You people killed them both.
Sorry for your loss.

Man, you sound like identitarian victim-crying SJW.  Can you cite a specific law or ordinance that precluded essential healthcare?  Sounds like bullshit.
One, we know you are sorry.

Two, meaningless apologies are just that.

You know damn well you were proponent of lockdowns and you know damn well that routine doctor visits and routine medical care visits were suspended in the US.

Just more BS on your part.

Your sister and brother-in-law died because they didn't go to a doctor's regular visit?
What is it that killed them?  Cancer?
They didn't get to go to regular, required visits because of the lockdowns.

A telehealth visit isn't going to give a doctor or other type of provider a chance to perform a physical examination of the patient.

In my brother-in-law's case, cancer.

In my sister's case, a combination of pneumonia (doctor stated bacterial, likely due to the issue of MASK BS) and undiagnosed (due to no regular screenings) spreading of prior breast cancer.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on May 27, 2021, 10:37:39 AM
Overall I think our vaccine rollout has been one of the few things our idiot government have got right.
BUT...I agree that this obsession with vaccinating every single person is wrong.

Only if you think herd immunity isn't worth achieving.  You won't need ubiquitous vaccination for that, but much larger numbers than you are seeing so far.

Yep. I think you got it.

People die all the time.

Covid did indeed kill my brother-in-law and my sister this past year, but not the disease itself.

Both died because of the bullshit peddled by the likes of you, like the mask BS and advocating for lockdowns, precluding performance of routine medical care and regular doctor visits, which they both needed.

You people killed them both.
Sorry for your loss.

Man, you sound like identitarian victim-crying SJW.  Can you cite a specific law or ordinance that precluded essential healthcare?  Sounds like bullshit.
One, we know you are sorry.

Two, meaningless apologies are just that.

You know damn well you were proponent of lockdowns and you know damn well that routine doctor visits and routine medical care visits were suspended in the US.

Just more BS on your part.

Your sister and brother-in-law died because they didn't go to a doctor's regular visit?
What is it that killed them?  Cancer?
They didn't get to go to regular, required visits because of the lockdowns.

A telehealth visit isn't going to give a doctor or other type of provider a chance to perform a physical examination of the patient.

In my brother-in-law's case, cancer.

In my sister's case, a combination of pneumonia (doctor stated bacterial, likely due to the issue of MASK BS) and undiagnosed (due to no regular screenings) spreading of prior breast cancer.

Masks can't create bacteria and unless you don't wash your mask for days, you aren't gonna get any bacteria growth enough to make ya sick.

Also: Cancer takes years to kill.  How the hell did it not get detected in 2019?  And when they went to the hospital, what, was it stage 4 for both?  Because two people, dying of cancer at the same time... Sounds like an issue with where they lived, like if their water or soil was radioactive or toxic.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on May 27, 2021, 10:48:21 AM
Overall I think our vaccine rollout has been one of the few things our idiot government have got right.
BUT...I agree that this obsession with vaccinating every single person is wrong.

Only if you think herd immunity isn't worth achieving.  You won't need ubiquitous vaccination for that, but much larger numbers than you are seeing so far.

Yep. I think you got it.

People die all the time.

Covid did indeed kill my brother-in-law and my sister this past year, but not the disease itself.

Both died because of the bullshit peddled by the likes of you, like the mask BS and advocating for lockdowns, precluding performance of routine medical care and regular doctor visits, which they both needed.

You people killed them both.
Sorry for your loss.

Man, you sound like identitarian victim-crying SJW.  Can you cite a specific law or ordinance that precluded essential healthcare?  Sounds like bullshit.
One, we know you are sorry.

Two, meaningless apologies are just that.

You know damn well you were proponent of lockdowns and you know damn well that routine doctor visits and routine medical care visits were suspended in the US.

Just more BS on your part.

Your sister and brother-in-law died because they didn't go to a doctor's regular visit?
What is it that killed them?  Cancer?
They didn't get to go to regular, required visits because of the lockdowns.

A telehealth visit isn't going to give a doctor or other type of provider a chance to perform a physical examination of the patient.

In my brother-in-law's case, cancer.

In my sister's case, a combination of pneumonia (doctor stated bacterial, likely due to the issue of MASK BS) and undiagnosed (due to no regular screenings) spreading of prior breast cancer.

Masks can't create bacteria and unless you don't wash your mask for days, you aren't gonna get any bacteria growth enough to make ya sick.

Also: Cancer takes years to kill.  How the hell did it not get detected in 2019?  And when they went to the hospital, what, was it stage 4 for both?  Because two people, dying of cancer at the same time... Sounds like an issue with where they lived, like if their water or soil was radioactive or toxic.
Good to hear you know more than a licensed MD.

When can we expect to be able to visit your licensed practicing office for regular checkups?

My sister and brother-in-law were living as cancer patients for years.

In both cases, the ability to have regular physical examinations was curtailed due to LOCKDOWN restrictions enacted by the BS peddlers of doom porn, such as you and the rest here, thus hastening their deaths.

I realize you and the others here didn't actually sign such orders, but you are of the same mindset of those that did. Personally, I have no problem classifying all of you as vicious killers.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on May 27, 2021, 12:04:35 PM
Good to hear you know more than a licensed MD.

When can we expect to be able to visit your licensed practicing office for regular checkups?

It's hilarious that this is your take considering the number of MDs you have disagreed with during the pandemic.

Quote
I realize you and the others here didn't actually sign such orders, but you are of the same mindset of those that did. Personally, I have no problem classifying all of you as vicious killers.

That's because you lack basic reasoning skills and are fueled by a dark hole in your heart.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 27, 2021, 12:09:19 PM
Good to hear you know more than a licensed MD.

Says the man who thinks he knows more than scientists...

Sorry for your loss, and all that. But it sounds like your relatives had ongoing health conditions which would have got them in the end.
It's possible that certain appointments being missed sped that up, and I do think the pandemic will cause deaths because of things like that or missed diagnoses. But the pandemic is a real situation which required a response - according to MDs, the people you are claiming know better than us. Whether it was the right response...probably not, but doing nothing wasn't really an option.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on May 27, 2021, 05:39:59 PM
Good to hear you know more than a licensed MD.

Says the man who thinks he knows more than scientists...

Sorry for your loss, and all that. But it sounds like your relatives had ongoing health conditions which would have got them in the end.
It's possible that certain appointments being missed sped that up, and I do think the pandemic will cause deaths because of things like that or missed diagnoses. But the pandemic is a real situation which required a response - according to MDs, the people you are claiming know better than us. Whether it was the right response...probably not, but doing nothing wasn't really an option.
Everybody has something that gets them in the end.

It was most certainly people with your mindset that helped to expedite things.

So, you got that going for you.

Nothing needed to be done, except for the meeley-minded, weak-kneed, henny pennies (kinda like you) needed to STFU and go lay down in their own corner.

Sane, sober minded people understand that death is a given and not one minute is guaranteed from the time of conception.

As a Malthusian, you add zero intrinsic value to any human endeavor.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on May 27, 2021, 05:41:55 PM
Good to hear you know more than a licensed MD.

When can we expect to be able to visit your licensed practicing office for regular checkups?

It's hilarious that this is your take considering the number of MDs you have disagreed with during the pandemic.

Quote
I realize you and the others here didn't actually sign such orders, but you are of the same mindset of those that did. Personally, I have no problem classifying all of you as vicious killers.

That's because you lack basic reasoning skills and are fueled by a dark hole in your heart.
I disagreed with less MD's than you did, truth be told.

When you are on the side of evil and when it comes to life in this world, evil will win out.

So, you, being a flow with the current kinda guy (content with all the enemas fueling your thinking sort, you know), believe the world policy of the day is good, rather than actually evil.

So in short Rama, I realize what your opinion is.

And I don't give a fuck.

You opinion is worthless to me.

You are part of the vicious killers.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: rooster on May 27, 2021, 06:20:02 PM
Missed screenings is definitely a problem that is coming up. However, most articles are citing that patients were the ones cancelling appointments during the lockdown or unwilling to utilize telehealth visits.

An article from WebMD even said:
Quote
The study also found that telehealth visits, which were widely used for the first time during the pandemic, were associated with better screening rates.

"Telehealth has a measurable positive effect on whether patients get their cancer screenings," Chen said. "This study also justifies a continued use of telehealth even after the pandemic."

I know that there were definitely still regular appointments happening in some capacity during lockdown. But, I wouldn't be surprised if maybe some healthcare providers did push back or cancel appointments if they did not consider them urgent.

The decline in screenings during the lockdown is pretty fucked up, but there's really not anyone to blame here. Hospitals and clinics were at the forefront of the pandemic, they were not fueled by any 'doom porn.'
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on May 27, 2021, 07:18:05 PM
Good to hear you know more than a licensed MD.

When can we expect to be able to visit your licensed practicing office for regular checkups?

It's hilarious that this is your take considering the number of MDs you have disagreed with during the pandemic.

Quote
I realize you and the others here didn't actually sign such orders, but you are of the same mindset of those that did. Personally, I have no problem classifying all of you as vicious killers.

That's because you lack basic reasoning skills and are fueled by a dark hole in your heart.
I disagreed with less MD's than you did, truth be told.

Oh cool. How many did I disagree with and how many did you disagree with?

Quote
When you are on the side of evil and when it comes to life in this world, evil will win out.

So, you, being a flow with the current kinda guy (content with all the enemas fueling your thinking sort, you know), believe the world policy of the day is good, rather than actually evil.

You distilled it to good vs evil. This is the lack of reasoning skills I was referring to. In reality there were always going to be casualties, so this was about reacting in real time to mitigate casualties. I’m surprised you don’t understand this considering the bug conservative talking point was about letting the old and infirm die for the economy. I’m sorry to say that the conservative alternative would have also presented serious public health risks to your siblings.

Quote
So in short Rama, I realize what your opinion is.

And I don't give a fuck.

You opinion is worthless to me.

You are part of the vicious killers.

One day you’ll realize that a lack of coherent public health strategy was the biggest killer in the US. 50 States and the Federal government all trying to curry favor in an election year.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on May 28, 2021, 10:23:50 AM
Missed screenings is definitely a problem that is coming up. However, most articles are citing that patients were the ones cancelling appointments during the lockdown or unwilling to utilize telehealth visits.

An article from WebMD even said:
Quote
The study also found that telehealth visits, which were widely used for the first time during the pandemic, were associated with better screening rates.

"Telehealth has a measurable positive effect on whether patients get their cancer screenings," Chen said. "This study also justifies a continued use of telehealth even after the pandemic."

I know that there were definitely still regular appointments happening in some capacity during lockdown. But, I wouldn't be surprised if maybe some healthcare providers did push back or cancel appointments if they did not consider them urgent.

The decline in screenings during the lockdown is pretty fucked up, but there's really not anyone to blame here. Hospitals and clinics were at the forefront of the pandemic, they were not fueled by any 'doom porn.'
Yeah, more BS.

How do you get screened for cancer over the phone?

Elective surgeries and doctor office  visits were curtailed, at least in this area.

For several months at the beginning of the "henny penny," shit show, you couldn't even leave the fucking house if you were not considered an "essential worker."

Revisionist history is another favorite tool of all of you.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on May 28, 2021, 10:28:41 AM
Good to hear you know more than a licensed MD.

When can we expect to be able to visit your licensed practicing office for regular checkups?

It's hilarious that this is your take considering the number of MDs you have disagreed with during the pandemic.

Quote
I realize you and the others here didn't actually sign such orders, but you are of the same mindset of those that did. Personally, I have no problem classifying all of you as vicious killers.

That's because you lack basic reasoning skills and are fueled by a dark hole in your heart.
I disagreed with less MD's than you did, truth be told.

Oh cool. How many did I disagree with and how many did you disagree with?

Quote
When you are on the side of evil and when it comes to life in this world, evil will win out.

So, you, being a flow with the current kinda guy (content with all the enemas fueling your thinking sort, you know), believe the world policy of the day is good, rather than actually evil.

You distilled it to good vs evil. This is the lack of reasoning skills I was referring to. In reality there were always going to be casualties, so this was about reacting in real time to mitigate casualties. I’m surprised you don’t understand this considering the bug conservative talking point was about letting the old and infirm die for the economy. I’m sorry to say that the conservative alternative would have also presented serious public health risks to your siblings.
You did listen to less MD's than I and took up sides with those famous, well known conservatives, such as Andrew Cuomo, Gavin Newsome, Gretchen Whitmer, and even your beloved Doug Ford, Justin Trudeau, and all the rest of the freedom loving songbirds, who have killed hundreds of thousands of elderly people, condemning to a life alone in the nursing homes.

Yeah, big conservative talking point.

Freaking loser. 
Quote
So in short Rama, I realize what your opinion is.

And I don't give a fuck.

You opinion is worthless to me.

You are part of the vicious killers.

One day you’ll realize that a lack of coherent public health strategy was the biggest killer in the US. 50 States and the Federal government all trying to curry favor in an election year.
I realize it was a fucked up system of virtue signaling (propogated by the people of like you, the fine head up their ass type) that helped to fuel it.

Substituting overall public health in favor of "the sky is falling."
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on May 28, 2021, 01:29:43 PM
You did listen to less MD's than I and took up sides with those famous, well known conservatives, such as Andrew Cuomo, Gavin Newsome, Gretchen Whitmer, and even your beloved Doug Ford, Justin Trudeau, and all the rest of the freedom loving songbirds, who have killed hundreds of thousands of elderly people, condemning to a life alone in the nursing homes.

See this is a prpoblem for you as well as Tom.  I actually think the lockdowns Canada and the US did were the worst most harmful version of them and caused more death than anything short of not doing anything.  But hey, keep making up the narrative that makes you feel better.

Quote
Yeah, big conservative talking point.

Yeah (https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/03/dan-patrick-coronavirus-grandparents)

Quote
Freaking loser. 

Stay classy.

Quote
I realize it was a fucked up system of virtue signaling (propogated by the people of like you, the fine head up their ass type) that helped to fuel it.

Substituting overall public health in favor of "the sky is falling."

I agree it wasn't well handled, they needed to do something more than a half-measured lockdown because they were afraid of the political optics.  Doing nothing was the only worse thing they could have done.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Shane on May 28, 2021, 02:02:25 PM
Do not get the vaccine it is a trick I feel like pure shit
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: rooster on May 28, 2021, 02:50:18 PM
How do you get screened for cancer over the phone?
I don't know, I've never had a telehealth visit. But it apparently helped, even if it just prompted a follow-up in-person visit.

Quote
Elective surgeries and doctor office  visits were curtailed, at least in this area.
CMS required certain personal protective equipment be available for elective surgeries. But some hospitals cancelled them altogether in order to make room for Covid patients. Again, I don't think this is for doom porn, hospitals would know best what they needed to do to function safely. Hospitals took a big hit financially so if they could continue appointments then they were going to try their best. I don't know how many places did this, but some appointments even had you come in and only see one person (the nurse or maybe an x-ray technician, etc.) so that you could get bloodwork done or an x-ray taken and then have a telehealth follow-up with the provider.

But if they cancelled your relatives' appointments then that really is surprising and awful considering they were known to have cancer.

Quote
For several months at the beginning of the "henny penny," shit show, you couldn't even leave the fucking house if you were not considered an "essential worker."
A lot of people were considered 'essential' though. Hell, I was able to keep going to my monthly orthodontist visits and I live in California.

Quote
Revisionist history is another favorite tool of all of you.
What am I revising? Screenings were absolutely missed during lockdown and it's a shitty thing, but again, who is to blame? Hospitals aren't focused on what the news or liberals are saying during a pandemic. Everything about the pandemic here could have been handled better but people saying not to go outside for brunches and influencer parties ain't it. It's been bad for many, many people for various reasons - but that's the nature of pandemics. If it was taken seriously long before it might not have been such a devastating problem.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Pongo on May 28, 2021, 03:07:15 PM
You can get a reasonable diagnosis of some skin cancers from a telehealth visit. Similarly, maybe cancers can be identified by simply showing your drivers license on a telehealth call.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on May 28, 2021, 06:56:31 PM
Masks can't create bacteria and unless you don't wash your mask for days, you aren't gonna get any bacteria growth enough to make ya sick.

Also: Cancer takes years to kill.  How the hell did it not get detected in 2019?  And when they went to the hospital, what, was it stage 4 for both?  Because two people, dying of cancer at the same time... Sounds like an issue with where they lived, like if their water or soil was radioactive or toxic.
Good to hear you know more than a licensed MD.
Considering I was agreeing with him... not how you think I know more or less?
Unless you were quoting him about the whole BS thing.  But I doubt that.
Yes, wearing the mask gave her phneumonia. Specifically, wearing a wet, unwashed mask.  See, bacteria are everywhere and they thrive in hot, moist areas.  When you wear a cloth mask, or any mask, over and over again without washing it properly, the warmth of your breath and the saliva and water from your breathing get trapped, making it a perfect place for bacteria.
This risk can be eliminated by washing the mask daily or using single use masks and disposing of them after you have used them for about 4 hours.

So yes, her doctor probably said "Your constant wearing of an unwashed/unsteralized mask is what made you sick."


Quote
My sister and brother-in-law were living as cancer patients for years.

In both cases, the ability to have regular physical examinations was curtailed due to LOCKDOWN restrictions enacted by the BS peddlers of doom porn, such as you and the rest here, thus hastening their deaths.
Ok.  So lets unpack this.
So both of them had cancer for years.  So they were in stage 4. (Well, the brother-in-law was anyway)
So, what, pray tell, do they do at the regular checkups that would have helped?  What treatments would have been done had the doctors known that your brother's cancer was spreading faster? Because from my understanding, a GP isn't going to do a biopsy or an MRI in the office.  They can do a prostate check and they can do a mammagram.  But as I understand it, both of those are to detect the presence of cancerous growth, not so much measure how much it was spread.

I would also find it VERY ODD that cancer patients who need regular checkups on their cancer would have been denied such visits to whichever doctor or hospital they went to.  Only because regular checkups are "I feel fine, just check me out" while what YOU described is "We need to do this to see how bad this disease we already know you have, is getting". 

Do you have any supporting evidence of this?  Anything that can verify that your family members were denied being able to see their doctor about their cancer?  Or do we just take your word for it?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rushy on May 29, 2021, 01:59:07 AM
Do you have any supporting evidence of this?  Anything that can verify that your family members were denied being able to see their doctor about their cancer?  Or do we just take your word for it?

Dave, if you could please refrain from asking for specifics on other member's families and their medical history, that would be great. You should be well aware that when someone provides such anecdotal evidence that saying "Do you have any evidence of that?" is not only silly (their statement is the evidence, you simply choose whether to believe it or not) but also against the forum rules as you are requesting more specific information about personal matters.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on May 29, 2021, 07:41:50 AM
Do you have any supporting evidence of this?  Anything that can verify that your family members were denied being able to see their doctor about their cancer?  Or do we just take your word for it?

Dave, if you could please refrain from asking for specifics on other member's families and their medical history, that would be great. You should be well aware that when someone provides such anecdotal evidence that saying "Do you have any evidence of that?" is not only silly (their statement is the evidence, you simply choose whether to believe it or not) but also against the forum rules as you are requesting more specific information about personal matters.

Fair, sorrry.

I just really can't believe a doctor's office would just be like "Nope, your regular cancer checkup is not gonna happen anymore because of Corona."

Like a news article or Press statement stating doctor's offices must remain closed for all reasons.  Even medically important ones.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on May 30, 2021, 08:14:39 PM
Here in the Netherlands, we recently got a quarter of the population vaccinated. It should be available to my age group sometime in June, at which point I will get it as soon as possible so I can put all this funny business behind me.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on May 30, 2021, 08:27:13 PM
Here in the Netherlands, we recently got a quarter of the population vaccinated. It should be available to my age group sometime in June, at which point I will get it as soon as possible so I can put all this funny business behind me.

Wow, you guys are behind. I've had both shots and will be fully vaccinated as of tomorrow.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on May 30, 2021, 08:32:30 PM
Here in the Netherlands, we recently got a quarter of the population vaccinated. It should be available to my age group sometime in June, at which point I will get it as soon as possible so I can put all this funny business behind me.

Wow, you guys are behind. I've had both shots and will be fully vaccinated as of tomorrow.

Some countries horded vaccine doses...
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 30, 2021, 08:33:34 PM
Have to say, as much as the UK government bumbled around messing pretty much everything up last year, the vaccination program has been one of the best in the world. The missus has had both jabs, my second is in July.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on May 30, 2021, 08:34:49 PM
Wow, you guys are behind. I've had both shots and will be fully vaccinated as of tomorrow.

We are vaccinating as quickly as we receive the vaccines. The supply chain is the problem.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: rooster on May 30, 2021, 08:45:18 PM
I'm fully vaxxxed as of yesterday.

My arm was very sore for a few days after the first one, but that was the only symptom I had aside from a little lightheadedness that only lasted a couple hours after both jabs.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on May 30, 2021, 09:22:40 PM
Some countries horded vaccine doses...

That is a vile and disgusting accusation.  >o<


We ordered only 457million doses. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1193154/covid-19-vaccine-doses-ordered-by-the-uk/

And there are 66.65 million of us (https://www.google.com/search?q=population+of+uk&oq=population+of+uk&aqs=chrome..69i57.2608j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)

So that's less than 7 doses each. Less than!  :o

You want us to be safe, don't you Dave? We need those vaccines to be safe!   >:(
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on May 30, 2021, 09:37:51 PM
So that's less than 7 doses each. Less than!


Its Ok, the UK has ordered another 60 million doses in the last week so we now have more than 500 million.
https://news.sky.com/story/another-covid-vaccine-set-to-enter-production-within-weeks-and-uk-has-60m-doses-ordered-12318119


(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/A1D7/production/_118713414_optimised-uk_vax_doses-nc.png)

With almost 8 jabs each, our government is keeping us safe and this is absolutely not an indication that you'll need bi-annual jabs for the rest of your life. No. Just 2 jabs each. We just have 500 million vaccines each just in case we have 220 million babies suddenly. Better to be safe than sorry. You understand, right Dave? And India understands. They aren't annoyed about it in the slightest.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-asia-india-52684569
Also Indian lives matter. Honest.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 31, 2021, 06:31:30 AM
So that's less than 7 doses each. Less than!  :o
Fewer than. Fewer than!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on May 31, 2021, 02:47:28 PM
So that's less than 7 doses each. Less than!  :o
Fewer than. Fewer than!
Sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of all that immunity.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on June 02, 2021, 06:14:46 AM
How do you get people in West Virgina, Maryland, Colorado, California, and Ohio vaccinated?

Bribery! (https://www.npr.org/2021/06/02/1002345101/guns-trucks-and-trips-west-virginia-expands-prizes-for-vaccinated-residents?sc=18&f=1001)

I'm curious how our conservative thinkers feel about using federal TAX PAYER MONEY to give out guns, trucks, vacations, and $1.5 million?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Pete Svarrior on June 02, 2021, 09:06:43 AM
I'm curious how our conservative thinkers feel about using federal TAX PAYER MONEY to give out guns, trucks, vacations, and $1.5 million?
Sounds pretty based, not gonna lie.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on June 02, 2021, 03:46:20 PM
I'm curious how our conservative thinkers feel about using federal TAX PAYER MONEY to give out guns, trucks, vacations, and $1.5 million?
Sounds pretty based, not gonna lie.

Based?  Or Biased?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Pete Svarrior on June 02, 2021, 08:04:13 PM
Based?  Or Biased?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNGVWGqo5e0
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rushy on June 04, 2021, 12:14:08 AM
I am still not vaccinated. I'm sure it's only a matter of time before I die horribly from the flu.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 04, 2021, 01:54:52 AM
lol @ the test animals here who took an experimental vaccine and risked their health on blind faith for a sticker and a box of juice

https://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/en/news-page/news-nation/doctor-on-covid-vax-we-screwed-up-we-didn-t-realize-the-spike-protein-is-a-toxin-does-this-mean-everyone-vaccinated-is-manufacturing-their-own-spike-protein-toxins-in-their-own-bodies

Quote
Doctor on COVID Vax: "We Screwed-Up. We didn't realize the Spike Protein is a TOXIN" Does this mean everyone vaccinated is manufacturing their own Spike Protein Toxins in their own bodies?

Audio from a radio show has emerged wherein Dr. Byram Bridle reveals the scientists behind the COVID-19 "Vaccine" made a terrible mistake.

According to the Doctor, who cites a brand new, peer-reviewed research study out of Japan "They made a mistake - they thought the spike protein was a great target antigen, only to discover it is a toxin, that can travel to many organs of the body, causing severe damage."

WORSE,  the spike proteins generated by mRNA vaccines don’t stay in the shoulder muscle, but spread to the brain, heart, ovaries, etc.

They also know that the spike protein is what causes the damage with COVID—and now it is clear how it is causing so much damage in other parts of the bodies of the vaccinated.

From the video below Dr. Bridle on why the vax injuries are happening:

"Spike protein, on its own is the cause of the vascular, neurodegenerative, problems, not the virus.

In the original theory it stay's in deltoid, goes to local draining lymph node, activates immune system.
But a new bio-distribution study from Japan tracked the vax and spike proteins.

It gets into the blood within days of vax, accumulates in spleen, brain, bone marrow, liver, adrenal glands, with high concentrations in ovaries.

Spike protein is a pathogenic toxin that causes damage if in circulation, binds to platelets, epithelial cells of blood vessels, clotting, bleeding, heart problems, brain blood clotting."

Conclusion is "We made a big mistake, and didn't realize it till now." "We thought the spike protein was a great target antigen but never knew the spike protein itself was a pathogenic toxin protein." "By vaccinating people we are inadvertently inoculating them with a toxin."
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on June 04, 2021, 05:01:20 AM
Based?  Or Biased?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNGVWGqo5e0

The article I posted.


lol @ the test animals here who took an experimental vaccine and risked their health on blind faith for a sticker and a box of juice

https://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/en/news-page/news-nation/doctor-on-covid-vax-we-screwed-up-we-didn-t-realize-the-spike-protein-is-a-toxin-does-this-mean-everyone-vaccinated-is-manufacturing-their-own-spike-protein-toxins-in-their-own-bodies

Quote
Doctor on COVID Vax: "We Screwed-Up. We didn't realize the Spike Protein is a TOXIN" Does this mean everyone vaccinated is manufacturing their own Spike Protein Toxins in their own bodies?

Audio from a radio show has emerged wherein Dr. Byram Bridle reveals the scientists behind the COVID-19 "Vaccine" made a terrible mistake.

According to the Doctor, who cites a brand new, peer-reviewed research study out of Japan "They made a mistake - they thought the spike protein was a great target antigen, only to discover it is a toxin, that can travel to many organs of the body, causing severe damage."

WORSE,  the spike proteins generated by mRNA vaccines don’t stay in the shoulder muscle, but spread to the brain, heart, ovaries, etc.

They also know that the spike protein is what causes the damage with COVID—and now it is clear how it is causing so much damage in other parts of the bodies of the vaccinated.

From the video below Dr. Bridle on why the vax injuries are happening:

"Spike protein, on its own is the cause of the vascular, neurodegenerative, problems, not the virus.

In the original theory it stay's in deltoid, goes to local draining lymph node, activates immune system.
But a new bio-distribution study from Japan tracked the vax and spike proteins.

It gets into the blood within days of vax, accumulates in spleen, brain, bone marrow, liver, adrenal glands, with high concentrations in ovaries.

Spike protein is a pathogenic toxin that causes damage if in circulation, binds to platelets, epithelial cells of blood vessels, clotting, bleeding, heart problems, brain blood clotting."

Conclusion is "We made a big mistake, and didn't realize it till now." "We thought the spike protein was a great target antigen but never knew the spike protein itself was a pathogenic toxin protein." "By vaccinating people we are inadvertently inoculating them with a toxin."

Isn't an antigen the thing we use in the vaccine to train the body's immune system to fight?
The same spike protienes that are on the corona virus?

So isn't it GOOD that the body attacks and destroys the spike protiene?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on June 04, 2021, 09:52:14 AM
Dr. Bridle appears to be less than honest. First off, the vaccine doesn’t create spike protein, it creates part of the protein. Second, the protein never leaves the cell where it is created. Being a well respected viral immunologist he must have know this, so why is he saying this? Maybe it has to do with the money he got from the Ontario government to create a vaccine that is based on spike protein?

https://byrambridle.com/

This site goes through Dr. Bridle’s claims and links to the studies they are based on.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on June 04, 2021, 06:57:56 PM
I am still not vaccinated. I'm sure it's only a matter of time before I die horribly from the flu.
Or, more likely, you won’t get that ill (if you’re fairly young) but you could pass it into someone who is at risk. Or you could get long Covid which I know people who have had and it isn’t super fun.
This isn’t just the flu. It might not be an “ZOMG LETS SHUT DOWN THE COUNTRY” level event either but it’s definitely a situation which demanded a response.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Pongo on June 08, 2021, 02:54:39 AM
I’m fully vaxxed. No side effects except I got kind of tired the night of the second shot and it turned me hella gay.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on June 08, 2021, 11:37:53 AM
I’m fully vaxxed. No side effects except I got kind of tired the night of the second shot and it turned me hella gay.

I hear being gay adds 20 years to life expectancy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 09, 2021, 09:43:44 AM
I don't like Russell Brand. In fact, I'd go so far as to say I loathe the bastard and his liberal politics. But, just because most of what he says is shit, doesn't mean he is consistently always wrong.

His view on why the West refused to believe that the virus came from a Chinese lab a few miles from the source of the outbreak and instead told everyone it came from a bat several thousand miles away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwAuSDQX_OY

The tl;dr ... the West has a narrative that science will always provide the solutions. An inexorable drive for progress spurred on by corporate profits. But what if science was increasingly becoming the source of all our problems? What if science didn't provide the solutions to the pandemic, but instead increasingly caused them? Can pharma companies rely on government grants and handouts from a supportive tax base when those funds are used to hurt that self same set of tax payers?

I think this "science solves everything and answers all our prayers" narrative is particularly prevalent on these forums. The blind faith placed in these institutions by patrons of this site never ceases to amaze.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 10, 2021, 06:52:37 PM
Whoooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Face masks on, lock all the businesses, find me a vaccine and spend all our tax money. Forget coronavirus. We have bigger problems.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-57431322
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 11, 2021, 02:26:07 AM
Dr. Bridle appears to be less than honest. First off, the vaccine doesn’t create spike protein, it creates part of the protein. Second, the protein never leaves the cell where it is created. Being a well respected viral immunologist he must have know this, so why is he saying this?

Why? Oh, I know this one. Dr. Bridle is the respected viral immunologist and you are not.

Quote
https://byrambridle.com/

This site goes through Dr. Bridle’s claims and links to the studies they are based on.

So an anonymous author of a website with no stated credentials is saying that a viral immunologist is wrong. Seems to be a trend from you of either citing yourself or anonymous internet comments. Nor do any of those links on that site reference long term studies. The vaccine has not been tested long term.

You were better off citing yourself as your source and your extensive non-specific experience with watching youtube videos. At least there is a chance of someone actually claiming to be an expert in those videos.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 11, 2021, 04:04:51 AM
Dr. Bridle appears to be less than honest. First off, the vaccine doesn’t create spike protein, it creates part of the protein. Second, the protein never leaves the cell where it is created. Being a well respected viral immunologist he must have know this, so why is he saying this?

Why? Oh, I know this one. Dr. Bridle is the respected viral immunologist and you are not.

Quote
https://byrambridle.com/

This site goes through Dr. Bridle’s claims and links to the studies they are based on.

Well, here are three authorities to your one that are basically calling bullshit on Bridle's claims - Are 3 better than one?

Spike protein produced by vaccine not toxic

"Dr. Dan Kaul, an infectious disease expert at the University of Michigan, said that the vaccines have been proven safe and effective through clinical trials and the millions of people who have so far received the vaccines in the U.S. “In terms of the spike protein itself being pathogenic in some way that’s just simply not true,” he said in response to Bridle’s claims.

In the interview, Bridle says that the spike proteins generated by the vaccines don’t stay in the shoulder muscle, but spread and are “causing so much damage in other parts of the bodies of the vaccinated.” But Dr. Adam Ratner, a pediatric infectious disease specialist at NYU Langone Health, said that vaccines are mostly concentrated at the site of injection or the local lymph nodes.
“What was said in the radio show was completely inaccurate,” Ratner said. “There is no spike protein in the vaccines first of all. The amounts that are made after the mRNA is injected are very small and it almost exclusively stays locally. It is nowhere near the amount he was talking about.”

Bridle left out key details of the study, which relied on an ultrasensitive detection tool, said Matchett, of University of Minnesota (William Matchett, a vaccine researcher at the University of Minnesota Medical School).
“The spike became undetectable by 14 days after the first dose of the vaccine,” Matchett said of the study. “After the second dose, they could not detect the spike protein in the blood of any of the participants because the participants had all generated anti-spike antibodies.”
Bridle also mentioned a Japanese study to support his claims about the spike protein. But the study, which is written in Japanese, does not look at spike proteins from the vaccine, Matchett said.


https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-377989296609
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 11, 2021, 04:14:54 AM
You quoted an "infectious disease expert," a "pediatric infectious disease specialist," and a university "vaccine researcher". Dr. Bridle is a viral immunologist.

https://www.longdom.org/scholarly/viral-immunology-journals-articles-ppts-list-4339.html

Quote
Viral Immunology

viral immunology is the study of viral infections and immune responses towards viral infections which can cause deleterious effect on the functions of the cells. It includes both DNA and RNA viral infections.

So you haven't quoted anyone who is a specialist in the immune response towards viral infections.

Maybe it will help if you quote a few more pediatricians.  ::)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 11, 2021, 05:22:58 AM
You quoted an "infectious disease expert," a "pediatric infectious disease specialist," and a university "vaccine researcher". Dr. Bridle is a viral immunologist.

https://www.longdom.org/scholarly/viral-immunology-journals-articles-ppts-list-4339.html

Quote
Viral Immunology

viral immunology is the study of viral infections and immune responses towards viral infections which can cause deleterious effect on the functions of the cells. It includes both DNA and RNA viral infections.

So you haven't quoted anyone who is a specialist in the immune response towards viral infections.

Maybe it will help if you quote a few more pediatricians.  ::)

Maybe it would help to quote a few more animal doctors...

Byram Bridle, Associate professor of viral immunology at the University of Guelph (@OVCPathobiology)

“OVC”= "Ontario Veterinary College”

Is your guy actually a Vet?

I'll take my "infectious disease expert," "pediatric infectious disease specialist," and a university "vaccine researcher", over your veterinary immunologist.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on June 11, 2021, 05:35:01 AM
Tom, once again, clings to experts that happen to agree with him, dismissing all others.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 11, 2021, 06:01:40 AM
Maybe it would help to quote a few more animal doctors...

Byram Bridle, Associate professor of viral immunology at the University of Guelph (@OVCPathobiology)

“OVC”= "Ontario Veterinary College”

Is your guy actually a Vet?

I'll take my "infectious disease expert," "pediatric infectious disease specialist," and a university "vaccine researcher", over your veterinary immunologist.

Wow. So here is some news for you: Scientists study animals for the purposes of human health.

Try reading his website profile:

https://ovc.uoguelph.ca/pathobiology/people/faculty/Byram-W-Bridle

Quote
At the intersection of these two programs, is a research initiative aimed at modifying the research team's optimized cancer vaccine platforms to target severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus (SARS-CoV)-2, which is the causative agent of the coronavirus disease identified at the end of 2019 (COVID-19). The long-term goal is to have a flexible technological platform to rapidly develop vaccines against highly pathogenic coronaviruses that may emerge in the future.

...

The Bridle lab is or has been funded by:

Canadian Institutes of Health Research
Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada (NSERC)
Terry Fox Research Institute
Canadian Cancer Society,
Cancer Research Society
Canadian Breast Cancer Foundation

Obviously Dr. Bridle must be wanting to create coronavirus vaccines for dogs. And the Canadian Breast Cancer Foundation is super interested in curing breast cancer in cats.

We can clearly see that Dr. Bridle was trained in human health viral immunology:

https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/472827d6-3b15-4c33-834a-970e550df358/downloads/Affidavit%20of%20Expert%20Witness%20B.%20Bridle%20-%20Respon.pdf?ver=1620059730771

(https://i.imgur.com/Yo8dvTg.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/eirmp4p.png)

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on June 11, 2021, 11:23:53 AM
Tom, touting your viral immunologist as a Trump card has to be some of the most desperate tactics I’ve seen. You know who the vaccine was designed by, right? Instead of clinging to this sad, fallacious argument perhaps find out what other relevant scientists are saying?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on June 11, 2021, 11:50:56 AM
Tom, touting your viral immunologist as a Trump card has to be some of the most desperate tactics I’ve seen. You know who the vaccine was designed by, right? Instead of clinging to this sad, fallacious argument perhaps find out what other relevant scientists are saying?
This is Tom's MO.
I think we can all agree that there will be a range of opinions even amongst experts and there will be some outliers who have views which are not shared by the majority of experts in a field. So you can find an "expert" who will back up any viewpoint - especially if you are even more honest and quote part of what they say out of context to make it look like they're saying something other than what they're actually saying.

So this is what Tom does, he just finds the expert with the extreme opinion which backs up what he wants to hear and declares them as his star witness. All the other expert opinions are ignored or disregarded. Very dishonest way of arguing but Tom's gotta Tom I guess.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: garygreen on June 11, 2021, 01:26:12 PM
The vaccine has not been tested long term.

please cite the long-term health effect studies for covid.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on June 11, 2021, 01:50:28 PM
I received my invitation to book an appointment for vaccination today. Finally, this will all be over.

Update: I have made an appointment to be vaccinated. I'll have my second jab at the end of July.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on June 12, 2021, 02:46:25 AM
I received my invitation to book an appointment for vaccination today. Finally, this will all be over.

Update: I have made an appointment to be vaccinated. I'll have my second jab at the end of July.

Dude! I just got my second vaccine and now I'm magnetized!  No, I'm serious! Small metal objects stick to me!

I'm going back for another shot! I'm going to increase my magnetic field! My power will grow!!!

I AM MAGNETO!  FEAR ME!!!

oh, wait, it fell off... hang on...  almost got it stuck...  got to really press to get it to stick...   there....

I AM MAGNETO!!!

https://www.cleveland19.com/2021/06/10/nurse-uses-key-hairpin-try-prove-she-is-magnetic-vaccine-during-ohio-house-hearing-video/

https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/2021/06/09/doctor-sherri-tenpenny-testimony-ohio-lawmakers-vaccines-magnetized-5-g/7616027002/

https://www.newsweek.com/man-attempt-vaccine-magnet-theory-fails-admits-wrong-1599322
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 12, 2021, 09:19:06 PM
I have a new conspiracy theory.

Coronavirus became a pandemic because of gain of function research that escaped from a lab. However ... we keep seeing new variants emerge, each more contagious than the last. Convenient that the improvement about all these new variants seems to be its contagiousness.

I think these new variants are man-made and the US and its Chinese partner are continuing the development of their bio-weapons and unleashing them on the public to gain more data. Under the guise of 'natural mutations' they release new improved variants in different parts of the world to cover their tracks and then monitor the effects. They know they will never get an opportunity like this ever again, to experiment on the public like this.

You heard it at tfes.org first.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 13, 2021, 03:42:10 AM
Another scientist, in the journal Microbiology & Infectious Diseases:

https://scivisionpub.com/pdfs/covid19-rna-based-vaccines-and-the-risk-of-prion-disease-1503.pdf

J. Bart Classen, MD

Abstract: "Development of new vaccine technology has been plagued with problems in the past. The current RNA based SARS-CoV-2 vaccines were approved in the US using an emergency order without extensive long term safety testing. In this paper the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine was evaluated for the potential to induce prion-based disease in vaccine recipients. The RNA sequence of the vaccine as well as the spike protein target interaction were analyzed for the potential to convert intracellular RNA binding proteins TAR DNA binding protein (TDP-43) and Fused in Sarcoma (FUS) into their pathologic prion conformations. The results indicate that the vaccine RNA has specific sequences that may induce TDP-43 and FUS to fold into their pathologic prion confirmations. In the current analysis a total of sixteen UG tandem repeats (ΨGΨG) were identified and additional UG (ΨG) rich sequences were identified. Two GGΨA sequences were found. Potential G Quadruplex sequences are possibly present but a more sophisticated computer program is needed to verify these. Furthermore, the spike protein, created by the translation of the vaccine RNA, binds angiotensin converting enzyme 2 (ACE2), a zinc containing enzyme. This interaction has the potential to increase intracellular zinc. Zinc ions have been shown to cause the transformation of TDP-43 to its pathologic prion configuration. The folding of TDP-43 and FUS into their pathologic prion confirmations is known to cause ALS, front temporal lobar degeneration, Alzheimer’s disease and other neurological degenerative diseases. The enclosed finding as well as additional potential risks leads the author to believe that regulatory approval of the RNA based vaccines for SARS-CoV-2 was premature and that the vaccine may cause much more harm than benefit."
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 13, 2021, 05:31:27 AM
Regarding the author of the paper, Dr. J. Bart Classen, it took about 3 seconds to find a wiki article on him. He is apparently a well known antivaxxer. And the journal that published the article in question seems to be of semi-dubious reputation...

John Barthelow Classen is an American immunologist and anti-vaccinationist.[1] He received his M.D. from the University of Maryland, Baltimore in 1988, his M.B.A. from Columbia University in 1992 and obtained his medical license in October 1997.[2][3] He is best known for publishing research concluding that vaccines, in particular the Hib vaccine, cause insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus,[4] a hypothesis he proposed based on experiments he conducted on mice in 1996.[5] His views are disputed and considered unverified.

A widely-reposted 2021 Facebook post claiming that the mRNA vaccines against COVID-19 could cause prion diseases was based on a paper by Classen. The paper "COVID-19 RNA based vaccines and the risk of prion disease" was published in Microbiology and Infectious Diseases, whose publisher, Scivision Publishers, is included in Beall's list of publishers of predatory journals. Vincent Racaniello, professor of microbiology and immunology at Columbia University, described the claim as "completely wrong".[1][6][7] Tulane University virologist Robert Garry stated that Classen has offered no evidence for the three pillars of his argument: that the sequence overlaps between the Pfizer vaccine are greater than occur with any randomly-selected stretch of RNA, or that the vaccine could cause zinc to be released and that doing so would affect its purported targets as he proposes.[8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Bart_Classen

Regarding the publisher as a potential predatory journal, https://beallslist.net/

Predatory journals as listed by Beall from the University of Colorado, "The list aimed to document open-access publishers who did not perform real peer review, effectively publishing any article as long as the authors pay the open access fee."

Politifact rates his previous antivax claim as a "pants on fire":

(https://i.imgur.com/1wtL8s7.png)
https://www.politifact.com/personalities/j-bart-classen/

Specific to his covid vaccine claims, more info here:

IF YOUR TIME IS SHORT
- Classen’s paper presents no evidence other than a three-sentence methods section that summarizes an unspecified analysis of the COVID-19 vaccine.
- Coronavirus vaccines developed by Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna have not been linked to neurodegenerative or prion diseases.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/feb/26/j-bart-classen/coronavirus-vaccine-doesnt-cause-alzheimers-als/
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 13, 2021, 05:35:47 AM
Did you bother checking your sources?

You are quoting what appears to be 23 year old child on the internet with no claimed or relevant credentials.

(https://i.imgur.com/zexhL4V.png)

This has happened numerous times with you. You could have easily clicked on his profile and seen your source, but you opt to quote anonymous Wikipedia articles, anonymous wordpress websites, and unqualified individuals.

You are trying to debunk medical researchers with unqualified sources. Seriously, just think about that for a while. How disappointing that your tactics have no integrity at all.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 13, 2021, 06:44:19 AM
This has happened numerous times with you. You could have easily clicked on his profile and seen your source, but you opt to quote anonymous Wikipedia articles, anonymous wordpress websites, and unqualified individuals.

You apparently didn’t read the Politifact article which cites expert, you know, the “qualified” type sources you so deeply regard.

And I guess this means you’ll be stripping out all of the, as you say, “anonymous Wikipedia” citations/references from your wiki? I look forward to perusing the new and improved tfes wiki when you’re done.

You are trying to debunk medical researchers with unqualified sources. Seriously, just think about that for a while. How disappointing that your tactics have no integrity at all.

Here are some more qualified sources to add. From Reuters, with more experts cited:

Fact Check-No evidence that Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine causes Alzheimer’s disease

“Having reviewed the paper, which is less than three pages long and provides only three sentences describing its methodology, Dr Albert Hofman, a clinical epidemiologist at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health (here), told Reuters by phone that the paper provides no evidence for the author’s findings, which he described as “untenable.”

“Dr Irina Skylar-Scott, a neurologist at Stanford Hospitals and Clinics who specializes in Alzheimer’s and other disorders of cognition and behavior (profiles.stanford.edu/242780), told Reuters by phone that Classen’s claims were “overreaching to say the least,” noting that neither TDP-43 nor FUS, the two proteins he discusses, are associated with Alzheimer’s disease.”

“Dr Brian Appleby, a neurologist at the Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine who specializes in both prion disease and Alzheimer’s (here), told Reuters by phone that there is no evidence mRNA vaccines cause neurodegenerative diseases, and that the journal article in question uses the term prion disease “quite loosely” to refer to other protein misfolding disorders.”


https://www.reuters.com/article/fact-check-no-evidence-that-pfizers-covi-idUSL1N2MZ382

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 13, 2021, 08:01:38 AM
The author of that Reuters article isn't a scientist either, and is unqualified to write that article or appropriately decipher the work or what the people interviewed are talking or complaining about:

Quote from: Reuters
When reached for comment via email, Classen told Reuters: “You should leave the scientific criticism to scientists” (which Reuters has done throughout this article) and that Reuters was “not qualified to criticize my work.”

The author of the Reuters article is simply unqualified. They even dumbly put the quote that they are unqualified into their own article. If they are unqualified to give an opinion they are also unqualified to correctly interpret and address a qualified one.

The paper Classen wrote only introduces potential issues for further study, and calls it a "potential risk". He says that it "may" cause harm. He does not claim that he proved that the vaccine causes ALS; and any criticism on the matter of what the paper does not provide evidence for is only pertinent in that further study is needed, as recommended by the author himself.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on June 13, 2021, 08:23:40 AM
It takes a special kind of stupid to pick on the reporter while ignoring the quotes from scientists delivering their qualified opinions.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 13, 2021, 08:33:12 AM
It takes a special kind of stupid to pick on the reporter while ignoring the quotes from scientists delivering their qualified opinions.

The reporter is unqualified to report on this, and is liberally biased (See: Reuters). He is unqualified to understand the material, present it, or give a conclusion.

The scientists most likely didn't just give a single sentence and then disappear, firstly. Reuters doesn't give the full conversation. Deceitful.

The selected quotes say that the author didn't prove that the vaccine caused ALS. The author didn't claim that at all, however. He said that there were some things which gave a potential for future issues. Reuters found a sentence that sounded bad and cited it and claimed that the author has been debunked.

Regardless, experts disagreeing with each other wouldn't prove anything, would mean only that there are experts who disagree with each other, and the situation would still suggest that there may be a risk in taking the vaccine.

It is well admitted that there is risk with this vaccine:

https://www.jpost.com/health-science/could-an-mrna-vaccine-be-dangerous-in-the-long-term-649253

“There is a race to get the public vaccinated, so we are willing to take more risks,” Tal Brosh, head of the Infectious Disease Unit at Samson Assuta Ashdod Hospital, told The Jerusalem Post.

When Moderna was just finishing its Phase I trial, The Independent wrote about the vaccine and described it this way: “It uses a sequence of genetic RNA material produced in a lab that, when injected into your body, must invade your cells and hijack your cells’ protein-making machinery called ribosomes to produce the viral components that subsequently train your immune system to fight the virus.”

“In this case, Moderna’s mRNA-1273 is programmed to make your cells produce the coronavirus’ infamous coronavirus spike protein that gives the virus its crown-like appearance (corona is crown in Latin) for which it is named,” wrote The Independent.

Brosh said that this does not mean the vaccine changes people’s genetic code. Rather, he said it is more like a USB device (the mRNA) that is inserted into a computer (your body). It does not impact the hard drive of the computer but runs a certain program.

But he acknowledged that there are unique and unknown risks to messenger RNA vaccines, including local and systemic inflammatory responses that could lead to autoimmune conditions.

An article published by the National Center for Biotechnology Information, a division of the National Institutes of Health, said other risks include the bio-distribution and persistence of the induced immunogen expression; possible development of auto-reactive antibodies; and toxic effects of any non-native nucleotides and delivery system components.

~

“We will have a safety profile for only a certain number of months, so if there is a long-term effect after two years, we cannot know,” Brosh said
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 13, 2021, 09:06:46 AM
The author of that Reuters article isn't a scientist either, and is unqualified to write that article or appropriately decipher the work or what the people interviewed are talking or complaining about:

Quote from: Reuters
When reached for comment via email, Classen told Reuters: “You should leave the scientific criticism to scientists” (which Reuters has done throughout this article) and that Reuters was “not qualified to criticize my work.”

The author of the Reuters article is simply unqualified. They even dumbly put the quote that they are unqualified into their own article. If they are unqualified to give an opinion they are also unqualified to correctly interpret and address a qualified one.

I don't see how they "dumbly put a quote that they are unqualified". They asked the good Doctor for his response and they reported his response. Would you prefer they didn't ask the good Dr, or that they don't report what he had to say? And actually, you have no idea what the reporter(s) qualifications are, do you?

Are the other folks cited in the article unqualified as well? Specifically, Dr Albert Hofman, a clinical epidemiologist at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, Dr Irina Skylar-Scott, a neurologist at Stanford Hospitals and Clinics who specializes in Alzheimer’s and other disorders of cognition and behavior, & Dr Brian Appleby, a neurologist at the Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine who specializes in both prion disease and Alzheimer’s - Are they not "qualified"?

As for your other concern regarding unqualified sources, as you put it, "...you opt to quote anonymous Wikipedia articles...", are you going to remove all of the Wikipedia references from the tfes wiki?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 13, 2021, 09:23:42 AM
Quote
I don't see how they "dumbly put a quote that they are unqualified". They asked the good Doctor for his response and they reported his response. Would you prefer they didn't ask the good Dr, or that they don't report what he had to say?

Reuters duplicitously did not cite or provide the conversations in whole, so who knows what they really said?

They probably didn't just say that the vaccine was risk-free in the full conversation. They most likely gave their criticism that he didn't prove enough and agreed with or otherwise submitted to the fact that there is risk to the vaccine, like many other doctors state.

https://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2020/12/what-worries-this-physician-about-the-covid-19-vaccine.html

DALIA SAHA, MD

"The rushed nature of the clinical trials casts more uncertainty rather than assuaging it. Pfizer requested emergency use authorization from the FDA, which has given its approval for the vaccine administration. Health care workers take care of sick patients, so it is certainly imperative for them to be in the best health possible, but concerns about the vaccines’ safety are not unwarranted. Also, the long term effects of these are impossible to know for years to come. These issues could potentially replicate the problem, turning those aiding the sick into patients themselves. 

mRNA vaccines are relatively new, and there are many variables to contend with. Other downstream effects from using new technology for the virus and the uncertainty revolving around that definitely is a cause for concern. Because of the limited clinical data, there are no long-term studies to demonstrate effects down the road. Other concerns include inflammation and autoimmune reactions, which can be serious adverse effects from the vaccine. The mRNA vaccines are dependent upon reactogenicity, which are the body’s transient but intense side effects after administering the vaccine. These are supposedly not long-term issues; however, they’re quite severe, especially after the second dose of the vaccine series proposed for the mRNA vaccines for COVID-19."
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 13, 2021, 09:50:22 AM
Quote
I don't see how they "dumbly put a quote that they are unqualified". They asked the good Doctor for his response and they reported his response. Would you prefer they didn't ask the good Dr, or that they don't report what he had to say?

Reuters duplicitously did not cite or provide the conversations in whole, so who knows what they really said?

They probably didn't just say that the vaccine was risk-free in the full conversation. They most likely gave their criticism that he didn't prove enough and agreed with or otherwise submitted to the fact that there is risk to the vaccine, like many other doctors state.

Wow, for someone complaining that they didn’t publish the entire conversation with each highly qualified expert they cited, you sure have asserted that they “probably” said this and “most likely” said that.

Do you often make up what other people said without knowing what they said?

And you still haven’t answered the question - Since you’ve deemed Wikipedia as an unworthy source, when are you going to remove all of the Wikipedia citation references and quotes from the tfes wiki?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 13, 2021, 09:59:02 AM
Wow, for someone complaining that they didn’t publish the entire conversation with each highly qualified expert they cited, you sure have asserted that they “probably” said this and “most likely” said that.

Do you often make up what other people said without knowing what they said?

Seeing that they generally agree that there is risk, and that virtually none of them would say that there is zero risk or "risk-free", that is safe to assume. Feel free to find us one willing to say that it is risk-free. At best you will find them saying that it is low risk, in contrast to the ones above saying that it is impossible to know.

I see that you haven't even bothered to address the last two doctors, since you know that they do widely believe that there is risk.

Quote
And you still haven’t answered the question - Since you’ve deemed Wikipedia as an unworthy source, when are you going to remove all of the Wikipedia citation references and quotes from the tfes wiki?

No. Wikipedia has a purpose of providing low value and low quality basic general information on a subject, and is free to be scrutinized. It successfully provides a litmus on the groupthink, even if it does not provide a litmus on truth, making it a useful reference.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 13, 2021, 10:21:59 AM
Wow, for someone complaining that they didn’t publish the entire conversation with each highly qualified expert they cited, you sure have asserted that they “probably” said this and “most likely” said that.

Do you often make up what other people said without knowing what they said?

Seeing that they generally agree that there is risk, and that virtually none of them would say that there is zero risk or "risk-free", that is safe to assume. Feel free to find us one willing to say that it is risk-free. At best you will find them saying that it is low risk, in contrast to the ones above saying that it is impossible to know.

I see that you haven't even addresses the above doctors, since you know that they do widely believe that there is risk.

Oh, so all your Dr Classen was saying in his article titled “COVID-19 RNA Based Vaccines and the Risk of Prion Disease”, was just about general risk of a vaccine. That’s all, that there’s some risk involved? That’s simply his message, nothing more, nothing less? That drugs have some risks? Like no one ever knew that there could be a risk with a drug? Enlightening.
And even though Prion experts are calling bullshit on Classens claims, that really doesn’t matter because he’s just saying, “Hey, drugs can have risks…you know, risks…” Ok, thanks to you and Dr Classen for pointing out that there may be some risks with drugs. No one was apparently aware of that until now.


Quote
And you still haven’t answered the question - Since you’ve deemed Wikipedia as an unworthy source, when are you going to remove all of the Wikipedia citation references and quotes from the tfes wiki?

No. Wikipedia has a purpose of providing basic low quality general information on a subject, and is free to be scrutinized.

So the tfes wiki is lousy with “basic low quality general information”? Good to know. I’ll let folks know whenever you refer someone to your wiki that they should beware of the basic low quality general info that you have wholesale deemed unworthy due to its anonymity.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on June 13, 2021, 11:52:46 AM
It takes a special kind of stupid to pick on the reporter while ignoring the quotes from scientists delivering their qualified opinions.

The reporter is unqualified to report on this, and is liberally biased (See: Reuters). He is unqualified to understand the material, present it, or give a conclusion.

You are less qualified and more biased. I look forward to not seeing any more comments from you.

Quote
The scientists most likely didn't just give a single sentence and then disappear, firstly. Reuters doesn't give the full conversation. Deceitful.

You cherry pick all the time. I’m glad you now understand why you shouldn’t do it.

Quote
The selected quotes say that the author didn't prove that the vaccine caused ALS. The author didn't claim that at all, however. He said that there were some things which gave a potential for future issues. Reuters found a sentence that sounded bad and cited it and claimed that the author has been debunked.

Nice conclusion. Doesn’t follow from the premises.

Quote
Regardless, experts disagreeing with each other wouldn't prove anything, would mean only that there are experts who disagree with each other, and the situation would still suggest that there may be a risk in taking the vaccine.

Now who is being disingenuous? (It’s you) No one ever has there is no risk from taking the vaccine. You haven’t being posting there alarmist, cherry picked, deceitful quotes in an unqualified manner to present the possibility of risk.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on June 13, 2021, 01:57:29 PM
You people are arguing over which experts are qualified.  Dr. Sherri Tenpenny, an actual doctor, I don't think any of you are doctors, graduated with a Bachelor of Arts from the University of Toledo, a real school, in 1980 and received a Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine degree. So no one can say she's not qualified. She says people are being magnetized! So I'm going for it.

I used fake names to sign up for the free vaccine three times next week. Soon, my abilities will be unimaginable!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 13, 2021, 03:59:16 PM
Quote from: stack
Oh, so all your Dr Classen was saying in his article titled “COVID-19 RNA Based Vaccines and the Risk of Prion Disease”, was just about general risk of a vaccine. That’s all, that there’s some risk involved?

Well, it's right there in the title. Not every paper has to prove everything. Bringing up a concern is enough for a paper. I presented the document as evidence that some scientists are concerned about the risks. Pretty typical of your side to take that and move the goal post and demand that the author proves something out of the scope of the effort, building a strawman and 'debunking' something not stated (that the paper proves that the vaccine causes ALS).

Quote from: stack
So the tfes wiki is lousy with “basic low quality general information”? Good to know. I’ll let folks know whenever you refer someone to your wiki that they should beware of the basic low quality general info that you have wholesale deemed unworthy due to its anonymity.

I said low value, not no value. Quoting Wikipedia among other sources makes it harder for you to claim that the particular subject discussed is not a group consensus belief, as even your side of liberal internet RE neckbeards thinks that your position is wrong.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 13, 2021, 05:14:10 PM
Quote from: stack
Oh, so all your Dr Classen was saying in his article titled “COVID-19 RNA Based Vaccines and the Risk of Prion Disease”, was just about general risk of a vaccine. That’s all, that there’s some risk involved?

Well, it's right there in the title. Not every paper has to prove everything. Bringing up a concern is enough for a paper. I presented the document as evidence that some scientists are concerned about the risks. Pretty typical of your side to take that and move the goal post and demand that the author proves something out of the scope of the effort, building a strawman and 'debunking' something not stated (that the paper proves that the vaccine causes ALS).

Quite the concern he has, closing with this:

"Approving a vaccine, utilizing novel RNA technology without extensive testing is extremely dangerous. The vaccine could be a bioweapon and even more dangerous than the original infection."

One of his concerns is that the vaccine could be a bioweapon? Really? Coulda, shoulda, woulda. What kind of credible Dr/Researcher throws around that kind of a notion based upon zero evidence? He's literally just pondering a thought and throwing it out there. Much like all of his "Vaccines cause type 1 diabetes" nonsense that has been kicked to the curb by many qualified experts in the field for years.

Of course he doesn't have to "prove everything". But his whole article is basically just spitballing, "Hey, maybe it's a bioweapon, maybe is causes Alzheimers, maybe even ALS...Who knows, but maybe..." And when someone is just chucking shit at a wall to see if it will stick, that's not really anything credible you can put forth as truth.

Quote from: stack
So the tfes wiki is lousy with “basic low quality general information”? Good to know. I’ll let folks know whenever you refer someone to your wiki that they should beware of the basic low quality general info that you have wholesale deemed unworthy due to its anonymity.

I said low value, not no value. Quoting Wikipedia among other sources makes it harder for you to claim that the particular subject discussed is not a group consensus belief, as even your 'side' of liberal internet RE neckbeards thinks that your position is wrong.

Actually, you wrote:

Wikipedia has a purpose of providing low value and low quality basic general information on a subject, and is free to be scrutinized. It successfully provides a litmus on the groupthink, even if it does not provide a litmus on truth, making it a useful reference.

You remarked disparagingly how I used Wikipedia as a source, yet your own wiki is littered with Wikipedia references. Why the hypocrisy?

And as for a litmus on groupthink, do you mean tfes wiki entries like this:

The Wikipedia article on Perturbation Theory (Archive) echoes the same:
"This general procedure is a widely used mathematical tool in advanced sciences and engineering: start with a simplified problem and gradually add corrections that make the formula that the corrected problem becomes a closer and closer match to the original formula.”


So would you consider the above not true, but still a useful reference? How is something that is not true a useful reference in this context?

Or this:

From the Wikipedia section on Special Perturbations in celestial mechanics (Archive):

You bolded: “...special perturbation methods are now the basis of the most accurate machine-generated planetary ephemerides of the great astronomical almanacs.”

Is the above just another useful reference of groupthink low quality info that is not true?

On the same tfes wiki page, you have a whole section plucked from a Wikipedia talk discussion from some anonymous poster. Is s/he “qualified”? You seem to selectively take issue with some anonymous Wikipedia entries, but not others. How do you which are ok and which are not?

Comparing VSOP to the Ptolemaic System
The following is left by an editor on VSOP's Wikipedia Talk Page (Archive):
followed by and entire paragraph copy and pasted.

Is this just another example of low value untrue groupthink?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: garygreen on June 13, 2021, 05:50:53 PM
The reporter is unqualified to report on this...He is unqualified to understand the material, present it, or give a conclusion.

how do you not see the irony of saying this right after doing the exact same thing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on June 13, 2021, 06:01:56 PM
The reporter is unqualified to report on this...He is unqualified to understand the material, present it, or give a conclusion.

how do you not see the irony of saying this right after doing the exact same thing.
'Rules for thee, not for me.'
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 13, 2021, 06:37:11 PM
Quite the concern he has, closing with this:

"Approving a vaccine, utilizing novel RNA technology without extensive testing is extremely dangerous. The vaccine could be a bioweapon and even more dangerous than the original infection."

One of his concerns is that the vaccine could be a bioweapon? Really? Coulda, shoulda, woulda. What kind of credible Dr/Researcher throws around that kind of a notion based upon zero evidence?

It's looking more and more like U.S. health authorities may have funded the creation of the Covid-19 virus. If these people are making bioweapons, lying about it, and orchestrating mass lockdowns, I would be concerned about their vaccines to 'save us all' as well.

NY Post - Sen. Paul: Fauci emails prove he knew of Wuhan gain-of-function research (https://nypost.com/2021/06/03/fauci-emails-prove-he-knew-of-wuhan-research-sen-paul/)

“There’s a lot of evidence that he [Fauci] has a great deal of conflict of interest and that if it turns out this virus came from the Wuhan lab — which it looks like it did — that there’s a great deal of culpability and that he was a big supporter of the funding,” Paul said. “But he also was a big supporter, to this day, of saying, ‘We can trust the Chinese on this. We can trust the Chinese scientists,’ and I think that’s quite naïve and really should preclude him from the position that he’s in.”


WSJ - The Science Suggests a Wuhan Lab Leak (https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-science-suggests-a-wuhan-lab-leak-11622995184)- "The Covid-19 pathogen has a genetic footprint that has never been observed in a natural coronavirus"

"In gain-of-function research, a microbiologist can increase the lethality of a coronavirus enormously by splicing a special sequence into its genome at a prime location. Doing this leaves no trace of manipulation. But it alters the virus spike protein, rendering it easier for the virus to inject genetic material into the victim cell. Since 1992 there have been at least 11 separate experiments adding a special sequence to the same location. The end result has always been supercharged viruses."


WIO news - Fauci admits Wuhan lab received 'modest' funds from US amid calls for probe into Covid origins (https://www.wionews.com/world/fauci-admits-wuhan-lab-received-modest-funds-from-us-amid-calls-for-probe-into-covid-origins-387497)

Quote
And as for a litmus on groupthink, do you mean tfes wiki entries like this:

The Wikipedia article on Perturbation Theory (Archive) echoes the same:
"This general procedure is a widely used mathematical tool in advanced sciences and engineering: start with a simplified problem and gradually add corrections that make the formula that the corrected problem becomes a closer and closer match to the original formula.”


So would you consider the above not true, but still a useful reference? How is something that is not true a useful reference in this context?

Or this:

From the Wikipedia section on Special Perturbations in celestial mechanics (Archive):

You bolded: “...special perturbation methods are now the basis of the most accurate machine-generated planetary ephemerides of the great astronomical almanacs.”

Is the above just another useful reference of groupthink low quality info that is not true?

I said that the quality of Wikipedia was of low value and mainly represented the internet groupthink, not that the content was always "not true". I consider this more of an English comprehension issue on your part.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 13, 2021, 07:36:43 PM
Quite the concern he has, closing with this:

"Approving a vaccine, utilizing novel RNA technology without extensive testing is extremely dangerous. The vaccine could be a bioweapon and even more dangerous than the original infection."

One of his concerns is that the vaccine could be a bioweapon? Really? Coulda, shoulda, woulda. What kind of credible Dr/Researcher throws around that kind of a notion based upon zero evidence?

It's looking more and more like U.S. health authorities may have funded the creation of the Covid-19 virus. If these people are making bioweapons, lying about it, and orchestrating mass lockdowns, I would be concerned about their vaccines to 'save us all' as well.

NY Post - Sen. Paul: Fauci emails prove he knew of Wuhan gain-of-function research (https://nypost.com/2021/06/03/fauci-emails-prove-he-knew-of-wuhan-research-sen-paul/)

I presume that we will get to the bottom of whether it was a lab thing or a nature thing. The jury is still out, as they say. In any case, how do we go from a possible accidental lab leak to Classen's "the vaccine could be a bioweapon"? Gain-of-function testing typically doesn't automatically mean, "Hey, we're making a novel virus that will require a novel vaccine that is actually going to be a bioweapon...So we get to lockdown and make sure people don't partake in our 80% consumer driven economy and then we'll kill them with our cool new bioweapon vaccine..." Yeah, that totally makes sense.

WSJ - The Science Suggests a Wuhan Lab Leak (https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-science-suggests-a-wuhan-lab-leak-11622995184)- "The Covid-19 pathogen has a genetic footprint that has never been observed in a natural coronavirus"

This is an "Opinion" piece, as noted at the top of the article. I prefer facts over opinions.


WIO news - Fauci admits Wuhan lab received 'modest' funds from US amid calls for probe into Covid origins (https://www.wionews.com/world/fauci-admits-wuhan-lab-received-modest-funds-from-us-amid-calls-for-probe-into-covid-origins-387497)

Did the money go to gain-of-function research?

Quote
And as for a litmus on groupthink, do you mean tfes wiki entries like this:

The Wikipedia article on Perturbation Theory (Archive) echoes the same:
"This general procedure is a widely used mathematical tool in advanced sciences and engineering: start with a simplified problem and gradually add corrections that make the formula that the corrected problem becomes a closer and closer match to the original formula.”


So would you consider the above not true, but still a useful reference? How is something that is not true a useful reference in this context?

Or this:

From the Wikipedia section on Special Perturbations in celestial mechanics (Archive):

You bolded: “...special perturbation methods are now the basis of the most accurate machine-generated planetary ephemerides of the great astronomical almanacs.”

Is the above just another useful reference of groupthink low quality info that is not true?

I said that the quality of Wikipedia was of low value, not that the content was always "not true". I consider this more of an English comprehension issue on your part.

So all of your tfes wiki references to Wikipedia are of low value? I never said they were all untrue. I was asking you, since you claim it doesn't matter if they are true or not, what is your deciding criteria to include Wikipedia references if they are of low quality and perhaps untrue? As you seemed to disparage my use of of an "anonymous" Wikipedia article and you reference "anonymous" Wikipedia articles as well throughout your wiki. Why is my use not acceptable, but your's is?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 13, 2021, 08:28:00 PM
I presume that we will get to the bottom of whether it was a lab thing or a nature thing. The jury is still out, as they say. In any case, how do we go from a possible accidental lab leak to Classen's "the vaccine could be a bioweapon"?

Simply, if COVID-19 was created in a lab then it means that someone wanted to deliberately create a highly contagious virus for some purpose.  Would you trust a group of people wanting to make a highly contagious virus to be implicitly good people? I wouldn't. Even if we don't know why they created it, that they would want to create it destroys all trust.

NIH was funding the lab. Why would the NIH fund a lab which was creating bioweapons? Merely an accident?

Sen. Paul says that Fauci's leaked emails show that he knew about the Gain-of-Function research at the Wuhan Lab. Fauci lying about that destroys trust. If we can't trust our highest health authorities, it means we can't trust them to do good with the vaccine either.

We can either trust them to do good, or not. And the level of involvement in this Coronavirus lab scandal destroys the trust.

Quote from: stack
This is an "Opinion" piece, as noted at the top of the article. I prefer facts over opinions.

An opinion of scientists consulting the WSJ, yes.

Quote from: stack
So all of your tfes wiki references to Wikipedia are of low value? I never said they were all untrue. I was asking you, since you claim it doesn't matter if they are true or not, what is your deciding criteria to include Wikipedia references if they are of low quality and perhaps untrue? As you seemed to disparage my use of of an "anonymous" Wikipedia article and you reference "anonymous" Wikipedia articles as well throughout your wiki. Why is my use not acceptable, but your's is?

I told you why I quote it. Wikipedia is decent at showing the RE groupthink on a topic, and the groupthink on a subject in general. That matters in a way other than truth. RE and heliocentric proponents maintain their own resources, and that is one of them. If you are a RE and have a differing position to the specific Wikipedia topic quoted in the FE Wiki it means that your own side is against you and you are actually in the minority with a belief that RE science may not even support.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on June 13, 2021, 09:00:53 PM
The author of that Reuters article isn't a scientist either, and is unqualified to write that article or appropriately decipher the work or what the people interviewed are talking or complaining about

What are the qualifications of the author of the TFES Wiki?
Are they qualified to write those pages or decipher the work of the people it quotes?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on June 13, 2021, 09:11:57 PM
Gain of function research isn’t implicitly for creating bio weapons. The stated goal of Fauci’s research was to mutate virus’ in order to find possible future dangers. The lab leak hypothesis is plausible but not necessarily nefarious.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 13, 2021, 09:13:47 PM
The author of that Reuters article isn't a scientist either, and is unqualified to write that article or appropriately decipher the work or what the people interviewed are talking or complaining about

What are the qualifications of the author of the TFES Wiki?
Are they qualified to write those pages or decipher the work of the people it quotes?

It's a collection of quotes, explanations, and videos related to FE, collected and made by many FE'ers of no particular authority. I have added a lot of stuff to it, but I'm not actually the creator of the videos, UA Theory, EA Theory, models, many of the arguments, quotes, etc. You came here to discuss FE and talk to the FE'ers. You can either agree with it, argue about the interpretation, or leave. Since you have been having trouble significantly contradicting the articles I would suggest that it's time to graduate to the last option.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on June 13, 2021, 09:20:04 PM
Reuters duplicitously did not cite or provide the conversations in whole, so who knows what they really said?

Genuinely incredible that you posted this when selective quoting is your whole thing.
You often do it from articles which literally say the exact opposite of what you claim they say, but with selective quoting you deliberately misrepresent them.
The only question is whether you are being dishonest and hypocritical here or just trolling.

Quote
They probably didn't just say that the vaccine was risk-free in the full conversation. They most likely gave their criticism that he didn't prove enough and agreed with or otherwise submitted to the fact that there is risk to the vaccine, like many other doctors state.

Nothing is zero risk.
Do you drive? Are there are any car safety experts who will claim that is a zero risk activity? If so then they are lying. Of course there's a risk. So why do you do it? Because you believe the speed and convenience of getting where you want in car outweighs the low risk of dying or getting badly injured in a car wreck.

Almost everything in life carries an element of risk, the issue is how high is the risk? With vaccines - as with driving a car - the risk is pretty low. That is not an opinion, it's borne out by the data in both cases. The long term risks of vaccines are known as is the impact of them on diseases like measles.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on June 13, 2021, 09:24:38 PM
Since you are having trouble significantly contradicting the articles
I'm having no trouble at all with that. You are having trouble understanding the arguments, but I don't know what I can do about that.
Remember the 2 days you spent not being able to understand a simple experiment with a laser and a boat, all the while claiming it was me who didn't understand it...then the penny finally dropped, you realised I was right so you just called it fake and ran away.
Or the time you didn't understand crepuscular rays so I made a 3D model which showed exactly what was going on and shows you screenshots from the relevant angles...you ran away from that one too.
But I'm glad you agree you have no particular authority. that is some progress at least.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on June 14, 2021, 05:00:04 AM
I presume that we will get to the bottom of whether it was a lab thing or a nature thing. The jury is still out, as they say. In any case, how do we go from a possible accidental lab leak to Classen's "the vaccine could be a bioweapon"?

Simply, if COVID-19 was created in a lab then it means that someone wanted to deliberately create a highly contagious virus for some purpose.  Would you trust a group of people wanting to make a highly contagious virus as implicitly good people? I wouldn't. Even if we don't know why they created it, that they would want to create it destroys all trust.

NIH was funding the lab. Why would the NIH fund a lab which was creating bioweapons? Merely an accident?

Is this your personal qualified expert virology analysis that altering a virus or other bio chemical pathogen to see what therapies or vaccines need to be created to combat a potential eventuality of a pandemic? That all research in this space, with this methodology, is carried out by untrustful people?

It is risky, for sure. And apparently quite controversial because of the safety concerns. Hence the Obama administration put a pause on US gain-of-function research back in 2014 until our research bodies could figure out exactly how to handle it.

And if it's found that covid was a product of gain-of-function research and accidentally escaped the Wuhan lab, then, well, that will probably put a nail in the coffin for GofF research. And maybe that's the right answer. I have no idea as I am not qualified to make that judgment call. Just as you are not.

As for funding the lab, GofF research wasn't the only thing going on in the lab. But again, we'll find out just how complicit the US was if in fact it was a virus that got out of the lab. We just don't know at the moment.

Lastly, the bioweapon bit is really neither here nor there. And your Dr Classen's bit about the vaccine being a bioweapon is just stupid. He might as well say the vaccine communicates with 5G towers, magnetizes you, and fills you with nano-bots. I mean seriously, what would be the benefit to any government, entity, whatever, to kill people with a vaccine? If the vaccine kills people and that's its intended purpose, who is going to be left to prop up the world consumer economy? Who is going to be around to buy shit at Walmart, Alibaba, and Amazon? Who's gonna be around to buy more drugs from big pharma? The vaccine as bioweapon is the dumbest thing I've heard.

Sen. Paul says that Fauci's leaked emails show that he knew about the Gain-of-Function research at the Wuhan Lab. Fauci lying about that destroys trust.

Do the emails show that? I think the real question is not whether Wuhan was doing GofF research as they can do whatever they want. The question is whether the US knowingly funded GofF research even though there was that Obama 2014 pause on it.  And obviously the biggest question is where did Covid come from, nature or lab accident? We don't know the answer to any of these questions at the moment. But I do understand it's fun to speculate. But before you start running around and calling people liars, you may want to gather the facts first.

If we can't trust our highest health authorities, it means we can't trust them to do good with the vaccine either.
We can either trust them to do good, or not. And the level of involvement in this Coronavirus lab scandal destroys the trust.

Again, who says people were not doing good and what's the evidence for that? What level of involvement? Again, what are the facts?

Quote from: stack
This is an "Opinion" piece, as noted at the top of the article. I prefer facts over opinions.

An opinion of scientists consulting the WSJ, yes.

Why is that different than the scientists and Drs that are consulted for other publications that say Classen's "research" is at a minimum, wanting?

Quote from: stack
So all of your tfes wiki references to Wikipedia are of low value? I never said they were all untrue. I was asking you, since you claim it doesn't matter if they are true or not, what is your deciding criteria to include Wikipedia references if they are of low quality and perhaps untrue? As you seemed to disparage my use of of an "anonymous" Wikipedia article and you reference "anonymous" Wikipedia articles as well throughout your wiki. Why is my use not acceptable, but your's is?

I told you why I quote it. Wikipedia is decent at showing the RE groupthink on a topic, and the groupthink on a subject in general. That matters in a way other than truth. RE and heliocentric proponents maintain their own resources, and that is one of them. If you are a RE and have a differing position to the specific Wikipedia topic quoted in the FE Wiki it means that your own side is against you and you are actually in the minority with a belief that RE science may not even support.

You cherry pick a lot of Wikipedia references in support of FE groupthink, not as representative of RE groupthink. Again, as you seemed to disparage my use of of an "anonymous" Wikipedia article which spoke to Dr Classen's anti-vax stance and dubious research and you reference "anonymous" Wikipedia articles as well throughout your wiki. Why is my use not acceptable, but your's is?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: nthurd on June 15, 2021, 06:38:24 AM
The truth lies somewhere between "vaccine is bio weapon" and "safer than water".

If someone has 3 hours to spare I suggest this podcast:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_NNTVJzqtY&t=4s
Bret Weinstein, Dr. Robert Malone (inventor of mRNA Vaccine technology), Mr. Steve Kirsch.

In short, what I got from it is:
mRNA covid vaccines are a new technology with unknown risks. So far they shown to be working in an unexpected manner (showing up in the body where they were not supposed to, spike protein being a problem in itself). Information about problems (deaths, complications) and alternatives (existing, long used drugs) is being suppressed to some degree.

The motive for suppression is institutional greed and mutual benefit networks (one can make money on a new vaccine vs. lower profits on market of out-of-patent drugs).

The good news is that supposedly some peer-revived papers are going to be published. So "the truth" is delayed but it will come out eventually. Similarly to "lab leak hypothesis" which went from "only morons are this stupid" to "it is possible" in mainstream.

Bad news is that some assholes will get very rich by exploiting the situation to detriment of humanity. But it is the case pretty much always.

As I went through covid without big drama in the spring, I do not have to travel or meet strangers, am not too old and plan to leave couple more decades I am not going to get vaccinated with mRNA type. But I am going to check out if it is possible to get vaccinated with "traditional-type" to immunized for next flu season.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on June 15, 2021, 07:09:15 AM
The AZ one is the more traditional type of vaccine - I had that one (not be choice particularly, that's just what they gave me)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 21, 2021, 06:27:38 PM
Another doctor criticizes the vaccine: The inventor of the mRNA vaccines - https://truthbasedmedia.com/2021/06/21/google-keeps-suppressing-the-shocking-interview-of-dr-robert-malone-inventor-of-mrna-vaccines-here-it-is/
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: garygreen on June 21, 2021, 06:43:51 PM
total suppression

(https://i.imgur.com/qb6TNnp.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Fortuna on June 21, 2021, 06:48:57 PM
I’m still on the fence about getting it. I’m waiting for more research to be done on a particular side effect. I also still wear a mask in public places, even though it’s no longer required where I live. While I don’t want to get vaccinated yet, allowing the virus to propagate doesn’t seem great either.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on June 26, 2021, 11:15:20 AM
I received my invitation to book an appointment for vaccination today. Finally, this will all be over.

Update: I have made an appointment to be vaccinated. I'll have my second jab at the end of July.
Just got my first jab of Pfizer. I can already feel the 5G signals pulsing through my body. Can't wait until the transformation is complete!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 26, 2021, 11:18:10 AM
I received my invitation to book an appointment for vaccination today. Finally, this will all be over.

Update: I have made an appointment to be vaccinated. I'll have my second jab at the end of July.
Just got my first jab of Pfizer. I can already feel the 5G signals pulsing through my body. Can't wait until the transformation is complete!
The Pfizer jab makes your poo glow in the dark.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on June 26, 2021, 12:51:46 PM
I received my invitation to book an appointment for vaccination today. Finally, this will all be over.

Update: I have made an appointment to be vaccinated. I'll have my second jab at the end of July.
Just got my first jab of Pfizer. I can already feel the 5G signals pulsing through my body. Can't wait until the transformation is complete!

Dont listen to Thork. Your poos will be glorious, but your arm gonna hurt. I get my 2nd pfizer poke today... really hoping my magneto powers will come through.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: crutonius on June 26, 2021, 03:35:32 PM
I received my invitation to book an appointment for vaccination today. Finally, this will all be over.

Update: I have made an appointment to be vaccinated. I'll have my second jab at the end of July.
Just got my first jab of Pfizer. I can already feel the 5G signals pulsing through my body. Can't wait until the transformation is complete!

Dont listen to Thork. Your poos will be glorious, but your arm gonna hurt. I get my 2nd pfizer poke today... really hoping my magneto powers will come through.

Should have waited bro! The newest vaccines make you Bluetooth enabled!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on June 26, 2021, 04:54:02 PM
Ah, piss. Missed opportunity.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Gayer on July 04, 2021, 09:16:24 AM
I received my invitation to book an appointment for vaccination today. Finally, this will all be over.

Update: I have made an appointment to be vaccinated. I'll have my second jab at the end of July.
Just got my first jab of Pfizer. I can already feel the 5G signals pulsing through my body. Can't wait until the transformation is complete!
The Pfizer jab makes your poo glow in the dark.

That's true, I use my poo as a nightlight now.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 06, 2021, 06:50:04 PM
Totally Trustworthy

(https://i.imgur.com/RyyLeq6.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on July 06, 2021, 10:22:02 PM
I guess this means people should maybe reconsider going with the Pfizer vaccine and go with J&J, Moderna, or AstraZeneca instead.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 07, 2021, 06:03:28 AM
I guess this means people should maybe reconsider going with the Pfizer vaccine and go with J&J, Moderna, or AstraZeneca instead.
Maybe, although all these vaccines have to go through independent trials before they’re approved. We don’t just have to take their word for it. And it’s now been rolled out to I guess hundreds of millions of people. In a population that size you are going to get some people who have reactions. People with a certain agenda will then cherry pick those cases to try and make a case which doesn’t stand up statistically
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on July 07, 2021, 06:58:42 AM
I guess this means people should maybe reconsider going with the Pfizer vaccine and go with J&J, Moderna, or AstraZeneca instead.
Maybe, although all these vaccines have to go through independent trials before they’re approved. We don’t just have to take their word for it. And it’s now been rolled out to I guess hundreds of millions of people. In a population that size you are going to get some people who have reactions. People with a certain agenda will then cherry pick those cases to try and make a case which doesn’t stand up statistically

Agreed. I guess I'm not really sure what Tom's point is. I took it as "vax bad" as I am not in the "vax bad" camp. I was pointing out (not so well) that if one has a problem with Pfizer's history, it doesn't wipe out all of the other vax's.

Not to mention the case he brought up, though terrible, requires some nuance to understand as opposed to just a lively twitter quote. They got busted for continually providing incentives to Dr's to prescribe their meds, golf trips, vaca's of other sorts, etc. Incentives, a no no. And they had a history of doing that. For two, they were promoting some of their drugs for uses that were not FDA approved. They are allowed to "suggest" alternative uses for their drugs, but not "promote" them. So yeah, terrible big-pharma behaviour. So the devil is in the details not in a cherry-picked twitter burst.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on July 13, 2021, 04:43:00 PM
Starting tomorrow, Malta will be the first country in the EU to close its borders to anyone not fully vaccinated (source (https://www.nu.nl/288125/video/malta-eist-prik-volgen-meer-landen-en-komt-je-vakantie-in-gevaar.html) in Dutch). I wonder how many more will follow.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on July 13, 2021, 04:50:26 PM
Though not an EU nation, Iceland has already done the same, right? I think it makes a lot of sense for island nations, where they can maintain a strong control over access points.

I see that being a huge challenge for many of the EU states with multiple border crossings. Definitely an interesting development though.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on July 13, 2021, 05:04:08 PM
Though not an EU nation, Iceland has already done the same, right? I think it makes a lot of sense for island nations, where they can maintain a strong control over access points.
I was unfamiliar with the case of Iceland, but it seems that there are some exemptions (https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidnikel/2021/07/05/iceland-welcomes-vaccinated-travelers-lifts-covid-restrictions/) for citizens of certain countries with negative test results. Malta is going a step further and requiring vaccinations for everyone.

I see that being a huge challenge for many of the EU states with multiple border crossings. Definitely an interesting development though.
The EU Digital COVID Certificate (https://ec.europa.eu/info/live-work-travel-eu/coronavirus-response/safe-covid-19-vaccines-europeans/eu-digital-covid-certificate_en) may make this easier to check, but we'll have to wait and see what happens.

Personally, I'm all in favour of this now that the vaccine is broadly available to everyone. For the vast majority of people, there will be no excuse not to be fully vaccinated in another couple of months.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 13, 2021, 05:20:22 PM
I'm a bit uneasy about this. I do think people should get vaccinated but there are some people who can't be and making it so that people can't travel or get certain jobs without being vaccinated...
It's a dangerous precedent
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on July 13, 2021, 05:23:11 PM
I'm a bit uneasy about this. I do think people should get vaccinated but there are some people who can't be and making it so that people can't travel or get certain jobs without being vaccinated...
It's a dangerous precedent
People who can't be vaccinated are exactly the people rules like this are protecting. If they can't be vaccinated themselves, we should be doing everything we can to protect them with herd immunity.

Once we have sufficient herd immunity built up, these restrictions should obviously be eased, but I firmly believe they are necessary for the coming months.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 13, 2021, 05:29:39 PM
By the CDC's own data, there were more deaths from the vaccine last week in the US than there were from the Coronavirus:

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/07/shock-report-covid-19-vaccine-deaths-last-week-us-covid-19-deaths/

Quote
SHOCK REPORT: There Were More COVID-19 Vaccine Deaths Last Week in US than COVID-19 Deaths

There are now 9,125 reported deaths from the COVID-19 vaccinations across the United States this year.

(https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/deaths-covid-vaccine.jpg)

The number of deaths linked to vaccines this year has absolutely skyrocketed. According to the CDC’s own data, in 2021 n the first 3 months, the VAERS website recorded over 1,750 deaths due to vaccines in the US.

Last week they were reporting 6,985 deaths, and this week that number jumped up 2,043 to 9,048.

That number is now at 9,195

“The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) database contains information on unverified reports of adverse events (illnesses, health problems and/or symptoms) following immunization with US-licensed vaccines. Reports are accepted from anyone and can be submitted electronically at www.vaers.hhs.gov.”

There have been 411,931 adverse reactions reported to the vaccine.

Also, last week there were 1,505 COVID-19 deaths in the United States.

That means there were more Covid vaccine deaths in the United States last week than Covid deaths in the United States last week.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on July 13, 2021, 05:37:37 PM
By the CDC's own data, there were more deaths from the vaccine last week in the US than there were from the Coronavirus
No, Tom. Read your own source again. Carefully this time.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 13, 2021, 05:43:15 PM
By the CDC's own data, there were more deaths from the vaccine last week in the US than there were from the Coronavirus
No, Tom. Read your own source again. Carefully this time.
What does this mean?

"there were more Covid vaccine deaths in the United States last week than Covid deaths in the United States last week."
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on July 13, 2021, 05:45:47 PM
What does this mean?

"there were more Covid vaccine deaths in the United States last week than Covid deaths in the United States last week."
It means that the person who wrote that sentence has understood the numbers about as well as Tom has.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 13, 2021, 05:51:31 PM
What does this mean?

"there were more Covid vaccine deaths in the United States last week than Covid deaths in the United States last week."
It means that the person who wrote that sentence has understood the numbers about as well as Tom has.

What is there to understand about the numbers?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on July 13, 2021, 05:56:50 PM
What is there to understand about the numbers?
Even assuming this obviously biased source is accurately reporting the numbers (which I haven't verified one way or another), you are comparing a number for the year to date with a number for last week. It is invalid to assume that an increase in a reported figure from one week to the next constitutes the number of deaths in that week. There are any number of possible reasons why the reporting of deaths could have been delayed from previous weeks.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 13, 2021, 06:12:10 PM
What is there to understand about the numbers?
Even assuming this obviously biased source is accurately reporting the numbers (which I haven't verified one way or another), you are comparing a number for the year to date with a number for last week.

It's not though. It's comparing these two numbers:

Quote
Last week they were reporting 6,985 deaths, and this week that number jumped up 2,043 to 9,048.

~

Also, last week there were 1,505 COVID-19 deaths in the United States.

Quote from: xasop
It is invalid to assume that an increase in a reported figure from one week to the next constitutes the number of deaths in that week. There are any number of possible reasons why the reporting of deaths could have been delayed from previous weeks.

Another possible reason is that the vaccine caused more deaths than the Coronavirus. Such data is certainly worth reporting and alerting us about.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on July 13, 2021, 06:32:55 PM
Another possible reason is that the vaccine caused more deaths than the Coronavirus. Such data is certainly worth reporting and alerting us about.
Just about anything is "possible". It's not worth spreading disinformation about our best chance at beating the pandemic just because the numbers you want aren't available.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: WTF_Seriously on July 13, 2021, 07:07:28 PM
What is there to understand about the numbers?

Perhaps this related to VAERS reporting.(The numbers listed are as of July 6.  No idea what the date of your numbers is.)

Quote
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. More than 331 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through July 6, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 5,946 reports of death (0.0018%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause.Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem. A review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records, has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines.

According to the CDC the US age related death rate in 2019 was 715.2 per 100,000 us population.  That would mean one could expect 357.5 deaths per 100,000 in a six month period. If you figure 2 doses per person then we're looking at 115 people million which would equate to 411,125 expected deaths pre-covid vaccine.  So, we have 9048 vaccine deaths vs. 411,125 expected deaths.  This means that getting the vaccine puts you at 2.2% the risk of death vs. not having a vaccine if you'd like to really understand your numbers.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 13, 2021, 07:39:23 PM
“The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) database contains information on unverified reports of adverse events (illnesses, health problems and/or symptoms) following immunization with US-licensed vaccines. Reports are accepted from anyoneand can be submitted electronically

lol. Compelling.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 13, 2021, 08:08:27 PM
The COVID-19 deaths are also reported even if it's unclear if COVID-19 was the cause. In fact, the people dying of it are the elderly and people with serious chronic conditions. No one is separating out how much of their death was due to their Cancer.

Quote
Just about anything is "possible". It's not worth spreading disinformation about our best chance at beating the pandemic just because the numbers you want aren't available.

Why does the pandemic need to be beat? The elderly and people with serious chronic diseases are also likely to be killed by a range of diseases. That's what happens when you get old or sick. You die.

If the vaccine is helpful, it should at best be taken by those groups that are at risk of dying of the disease; not healthy adults and children. There is no reason to perform mRNA gene experiments on the healthy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on July 13, 2021, 08:19:54 PM
Starting tomorrow, Malta will be the first country in the EU to close its borders to anyone not fully vaccinated (source (https://www.nu.nl/288125/video/malta-eist-prik-volgen-meer-landen-en-komt-je-vakantie-in-gevaar.html) in Dutch). I wonder how many more will follow.
They have already gone back on that (https://www.nu.nl/coronavirus/6145404/malta-komt-terug-op-weren-niet-gevaccineerden-en-stelt-quarantaineplicht-in.html). They're now just going to quarantine anyone who isn't fully vaccinated instead.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 13, 2021, 09:54:16 PM
The COVID-19 deaths are also reported even if it's unclear if COVID-19 was the cause. In fact, the people dying of it are the elderly and people with serious chronic conditions. No one is separating out how much of their death was due to their Cancer.

That's fairly accurate. But the thing I've been looking at in the UK is all cause mortality, there were two big spikes above the average during the two waves of the virus. That tells me that there's something going on which isn't typical.
Overall the CFR (Case Fatality Rate) from Covid is around 1%. Greatly skewed towards older people, granted, but I was talking to a doctor recently who works in intensive care and he was telling me that over the last winter many of the people in hospital with Covid were in their 40s and 50s. So younger people can still get very ill.

It's been quoted above, but according to the CDC:

Quote
More than 334 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through July 12, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 6,079 reports of death (0.0018%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine.

And VAERS is a website where literally anyone can report an Adverse Event.
And of course significantly more people have been vaccinated than have ever caught Covid.

So...I'm not sure what point you think you're making here.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 14, 2021, 01:04:46 PM
Quote
That's fairly accurate. But the thing I've been looking at in the UK is all cause mortality, there were two big spikes above the average during the two waves of the virus. That tells me that there's something going on which isn't typical.
Overall the CFR (Case Fatality Rate) from Covid is around 1%. Greatly skewed towards older people, granted, but I was talking to a doctor recently who works in intensive care and he was telling me that over the last winter many of the people in hospital with Covid were in their 40s and 50s. So younger people can still get very ill.

The people in their 40's and 50's had a chronic illness like cancer. It is fairly established that the people dying are either elderly or they had a serious pre-existing issue. There are plenty of articles on that. That those numbers are people in their 40's and 50's tells the story all by itself. Not many children and teenagers and 20-somethings dying of this disease. They are far less likely to have a chronic health condition than someone in their 40's or 50's.

Quote
And VAERS is a website where literally anyone can report an Adverse Event.
And of course significantly more people have been vaccinated than have ever caught Covid.

So...I'm not sure what point you think you're making here.

Actually VAERS is a website where you need to provide detailed personal information to submit a report, where doctors are required by law to report the adverse effects to the vaccines to VAERS, and where submitting a false report is highly illegal.

It says so right on the website:

https://vaers.hhs.gov/reportevent.html

"Knowingly filing a false VAERS report is a violation of Federal law (18 U.S. Code § 1001) punishable by fine and imprisonment."

The CDC has removed false reports in the past.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/05/09/fact-check-no-evidence-2-year-old-died-covid-vaccine/4971367001/

Quote
The CDC said the report was removed from the VAERS database for being "completely made up."

They remove reports. So they are policing it. On the other side, a hospital could equally falsely report a death to Covid when it is clearly something else, for the Covid funding.

It's also the ONLY centralized government-reporting mechanism in the US on adverse vaccine effects, which is a significant point. The simple fact is that VAERS is the only government service reporting on adverse vaccine effects and this government service is telling us that last week more people have died of the vaccine that of the Coronavirus.

The special pleading here of "it coulda' been a bunch of scammers making false reports" (paraphrased) is irrelevant to the fact that the government is giving us data with its only reporting system telling us that a significant number of people have died to this vaccine, which would be the utmost irresponsible to ignore.

Instead, you guys should be calling for investigation, like the CDC investigated the one in the link above.

But no, I see comments that it should be ignored because it is "not worth spreading disinformation". Lets ignore it. That's exactly the sentiment given. Yeah right. It is irresponsible to ignore the only US Government reporting mechanism on the vaccine. It is blatant and clear that these statements are made because it hurts the feelings and pre-determined beliefs on the matter.

If a government reporting system, of the only one to exist in the country, was suggesting that a bunch of people were dying to a drug that you weren't emotionally invested in, you guys would be concerned about that. But because there are some dogmatic beliefs going on, it's not too concerning in this case. A bunch of dogma and faith-based reasoning.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 14, 2021, 03:30:03 PM
The people in their 40's and 50's had a chronic illness like cancer. It is fairly established that the people dying are either elderly or they had a serious pre-existing issue. There are plenty of articles on that. That those numbers are people in their 40's and 50's tells the story all by itself. Not many healthy children and teenagers and 20-somethings dying of this disease. They are far less likely to have a chronic health condition than someone in their 40's or 50's.

I don't know about the people in their 40s and 50s, but you're basically correct in that for young, healthy people this disease is not generally that dangerous. But the pandemic has had a big impact on deaths and stretched health services in multiple countries. It's not a fuss about nothing.

Quote
Actually VAERS is a website where you need to provide detailed personal information to submit a report, where doctors are required by law to report the adverse effects to the vaccines to VAERS, and where submitting a false report is highly illegal.

I'm not saying that people are reporting falsely - some may be, and you've cited an example where someone did.
But the point is anyone can report an incident. This it not official government data. These were reported in the last week.
No-one has investigated all these cases and officially found a causal link between these deaths and the vaccine.
And, again, a lot more people have had the vaccine in the last few months than have had Covid. So even if all these deaths genuinely are related to the vaccine (and I have explained why that is not a valid assumption) it would still be statistically tiny number compared with your chances of dying from Covid.

Quote
its only reporting system telling us that a significant number of people have died to this vaccine, which would be the utmost irresponsible to ignore.
Agreed. And it isn't being ignored. The whole point of VAERS is so these things can be investigated and it can continue to ensure vaccines are administered safely.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 14, 2021, 05:17:47 PM
Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
I don't know about the people in their 40s and 50s, but you're basically correct in that for young, healthy people this disease is not generally that dangerous. But the pandemic has had a big impact on deaths and stretched health services in multiple countries. It's not a fuss about nothing.

Look at how many elderly and sickly people died of the flu in past years. The number is quite high. People who are old or sick die. It's just a fact of life.

Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
And, again, a lot more people have had the vaccine in the last few months than have had Covid. So even if all these deaths genuinely are related to the vaccine (and I have explained why that is not a valid assumption) it would still be statistically tiny number compared with your chances of dying from Covid.

If the mass-vaccination campaigns are starting to cause more deaths on a weekly basis than Covid then that should be concerning.

At least with Covid we have a general knowledge from past human-virus interaction over the millennia that viral illness is generally temporary and swiftly defeated by the immune system. We don't really know what these vaccines are going to start doing in the future.

In this case you are trying to convince me that it's a good idea to do experiments on me and reprogram my mRNA to produce things in my body for the rest of my life without the long term testing to prove that its safe. Abhorrent.

Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
Agreed. And it isn't being ignored.

I saw some arguments here about wanting to ignore it - "Just about anything is 'possible'. It's not worth spreading disinformation about our best chance at beating the pandemic just because the numbers you want aren't available."

That seems to be saying that it might be disinformation, so we should extinguish discussion about it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 14, 2021, 05:29:39 PM
If the mass-vaccination campaigns are starting to cause more deaths on a weekly basis than Covid then that should be concerning.

Depending on the mortality rate, yes.  It appears the rate is at least an order of magnitude lower than the virus itself with tremendous upside.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 14, 2021, 06:12:44 PM
Look at how many elderly and sickly people died of the flu in past years. The number is quite high. People who are old or sick die. It's just a fact of life.
Well sure. But as I said the all cause mortality in 2020 is significantly higher than the average, I suspect the same will be true in 2021 as a lot of the deaths in the UK were this year.

Quote
If the mass-vaccination campaigns are starting to cause more deaths on a weekly basis than Covid then that should be concerning.
Well sure. But that is a very big if. And it is extremely unlikely to be the case. You are comparing Covid deaths which are certified by medical professionals with VEARS reports, an open system where literally anyone can file a report and no casual link has been established.

Quote
At least with Covid we have a general knowledge from past human-virus interaction over the millennia that viral illness is generally temporary and swiftly defeated by the immune system.

You’ll have to tell that to the Spanish flu which killed 50 million people worldwide. There were 4 waves in that pandemic. Covid isn’t going to kill that many people, I imagine in part because we are a century later and medicine is a lot better now. Plus they managed to develop a vaccine which hopefully will mitigate the risk of further waves.

Quote
We don't really know what these vaccines are going to start doing in the future.
We have over a century of data on vaccines. They have all but eliminated certain diseases and been part of a massive rise in life expectancy. So we do know.
The RNA vaccines do the same thing as the traditional ones, they just work is a different  way.

Quote
I saw some arguments here about wanting to ignore it
So? The VAERS reports done come through to people on here.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 14, 2021, 06:51:12 PM
Look at how many elderly and sickly people died of the flu in past years. The number is quite high. People who are old or sick die. It's just a fact of life.
Well sure. But as I said the all cause mortality in 2020 is significantly higher than the average, I suspect the same will be true in 2021 as a lot of the deaths in the UK were this year.

The flu cases were way down in 2020-2021 flu season, leading some to believe that the statistics are being manipulated or the Covid tests are cross-testing with existing diseases.

(https://i.imgur.com/5DaXiCK.jpg)

Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
Well sure. But that is a very big if. And it is extremely unlikely to be the case. You are comparing Covid deaths which are certified by medical professionals with VEARS reports, an open system where literally anyone can file a report and no casual link has been established.

Doctors are required to report to VAERS. It's the only system they report to on Vaccine effects.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/ensuringsafety/monitoring/vaers/index.html

"Healthcare providers are required to report certain adverse events following COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS."

If your argument is that the reports may be coming from the general public making incorrect reports , that information is available for further investigation. Someone claiming that their family member died after taking the vaccine is also concerning. The reports should definitely not be ignored.

Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
We have over a century of data on vaccines. They have all but eliminated certain diseases and been part of a massive rise in life expectancy. So we do know.
The RNA vaccines do the same thing as the traditional ones, they just work is a different  way

None of the other vaccines cause your body to continuously produce a substance for the rest of your life. That needs to be tested.

The other ones work by training your body to recognize the disease as a one time deal. Maybe that's safe. But this one works differently.

Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
So? The VAERS reports done come through to people on here.

What do you mean so? If there are people out there who want to police discussions and ignore or shut down discussion on a government reporting system which suggests that the vaccine may be hurting people it's wrong.

Twitter and YouTube have gone hog-wild on censoring all discussion related to things that are negative to the vaccines recently. Some people can't handle opposing opinions. Probably why you have opted to end a number of your previous discussions with "You're trolling!" rather than any legitimate counterargument.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on July 14, 2021, 07:14:58 PM
Flu cases for what region?

And why would anyone have expected cases to do anything other than plummet, with increased focus on ha d washing, social distancing, mask mandates,  working from home, kids doing school from home and complete lockdowns.

Of course flu numbers were going to plummet. But what is the source for the numbers fox showed on that graphic?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 14, 2021, 07:40:48 PM
The region is the USA. Another source:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/05/10/flu-cases-historically-low-during-covid-what-expect-fall/7088318002/

Quote
Public health and clinical laboratories reported 2,038 flu cases during the season from Sept. 27, 2020, to April 24, 2021, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The agency estimated about 38 million people were sick with the flu during the 2019-2020 season.

“It’s been an amazing year,” said Dr. John Swartzberg, a professor emeritus of infectious diseases at the University of California, Berkeley in the school of public health. “In all my years of being a flu watcher … I’ve never seen anything like this.”

The article also attributes the cause to "mask wearing," "social distancing" and "hand washing".

Quote
A year full of social distancing, mask wearing, hand washing and staying at home to prevent coronavirus spread rendered the 2020-2021 influenza season practically nonexistent.

Assuming that people even did it right (they didn't, almost no one practices the proper hand washing hygiene when putting on and taking off masks that surgeons perform) why does that defeat the flu, but not Covid?

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

(https://i.imgur.com/gx2jiLr.png)

Oh, so the flu is nearly completely eliminated in the 2020-2021 Flu Season, but COVID runs unchecked, creating similar numbers to what the flu did in the 2019-2020 Flu Season (38 Million). That definitely makes a lot of sense.  ::)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on July 14, 2021, 07:57:04 PM
Oh, so the flu is nearly completely eliminated in the 2020-2021 Flu Season, but COVID runs unchecked during that same period, creating similar numbers to what the flu did in the 2019-2020 Flu Season (38 Million). That definitely makes a lot of sense.  ::)

What's the point you're trying to make? That we shouldn't have had lockdowns, limited travel, mask mandates? That we shouldn't have a vaccine for Covid? That Covid is really just the annual flu? What exactly is it that you are suggesting?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 14, 2021, 08:34:22 PM
Oh, so the flu is nearly completely eliminated in the 2020-2021 Flu Season, but COVID runs unchecked during that same period, creating similar numbers to what the flu did in the 2019-2020 Flu Season (38 Million). That definitely makes a lot of sense.  ::)

What's the point you're trying to make? That we shouldn't have had lockdowns, limited travel, mask mandates? That we shouldn't have a vaccine for Covid? That Covid is really just the annual flu? What exactly is it that you are suggesting?

I just presented the data. You can make of it as you will.

But if you want my personal opinion on the matter I don't think Covid is even a real pandemic.

I'm more inclined to think that world powers are trying to hoodwink us for some reason. It might have something to do with the "Great Reset" where they want to use Covid and climate change to implement universal communism on society.

https://thehill.com/opinion/energy-environment/528482-john-kerry-reveals-bidens-devotion-to-radical-great-reset-movement

Quote
The two justifications for the proposal, which has been aptly named by its supporters the “Great Reset,” are the COVID-19 pandemic (the short-term justification) and the so-called “climate crisis” caused by global warming (the long-term justification).

According to the Great Reset’s supporters, the plan would fundamentally transform much of society. As World Economic Forum (WEF) head Klaus Schwab wrote back in June, “the world must act jointly and swiftly to revamp all aspects of our societies and economies, from education to social contracts and working conditions. Every country, from the United States to China, must participate, and every industry, from oil and gas to tech, must be transformed. In short, we need a ‘Great Reset’ of capitalism.”

...

There has been some evidence suggesting that Biden and some of his biggest allies back the Great Reset and would attempt to impose it on the United States. But Biden and his team have never explicitly stated that America would be involved — that is, until now.

At a panel discussion about the Great Reset hosted by the World Economic Forum in mid-November, former Secretary of State John Kerry – Biden’s would-be special presidential envoy for climate – firmly declared that the Biden administration will support the Great Reset and that the Great Reset “will happen with greater speed and with greater intensity than a lot of people might imagine.”

When asked by panel host Borge Brende whether the World Economic Forum and other Great Reset supporters are “expecting too much too soon from the new president, or is he going to deliver first day on this [sic] topics?,” Kerry responded, “The answer to your question is, no, you’re not expecting too much.”

“And yes, it [the Great Reset] will happen,” Kerry continued. “And I think it will happen with greater speed and with greater intensity than a lot of people might imagine. In effect, the citizens of the United States have just done a Great Reset. We’ve done a Great Reset. And it was a record level of voting.”

Kerry later argued that the Great Reset is necessary to slow the “climate crisis” and that “I know Joe Biden believes … it’s not enough just to rejoin Paris [the Paris Climate Accords] for the United States. It’s not enough for us to just do the minimum of what Paris requires.”

Kerry also said that because of the Great Reset movement, he believes “we’re at the dawn of an extremely exciting time” and that “the greatest opportunity we have” to address social and economic problems is “dealing with the climate crisis.”

Yes, because we need to fundamentally change the nature of capitalism to defeat Covid and solve the climate crisis. What enlightened thinkers.  :o

You are going to own nothing and be happy, as stated in their promotional material:

(https://i.imgur.com/r5Vb85O.jpg)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 14, 2021, 08:41:12 PM
Buddhism says the same thing.  They are obviously IN ON ITTM
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: rooster on July 14, 2021, 08:47:17 PM
I'm more inclined to think that world powers are trying to hoodwink us for some reason. It might have something to do with the "Great Reset" where they want to use Covid and climate change to implement universal communism on society.

Don't threaten me with a good time!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 15, 2021, 12:16:38 AM
From Professor of Economics Dr. Antony P. Mueller at the Misses Institute:

https://mises.org/wire/no-privacy-no-property-world-2030-according-wef

Quote
No Privacy, No Property: The World in 2030 According to the WEF

Individual liberty is at risk again. What may lie ahead was projected in November 2016 when the WEF published “8 Predictions for the World in 2030.” According to the WEF’s scenario, the world will become quite a different place from now because how people work and live will undergo a profound change. The scenario for the world in 2030 is more than just a forecast. It is a plan whose implementation has accelerated drastically since with the announcement of a pandemic and the consequent lockdowns.

According to the projections of the WEF’s “Global Future Councils,” private property and privacy will be abolished during the next decade. The coming expropriation would go further than even the communist demand to abolish the property of production goods but leave space for private possessions. The WEF projection says that consumer goods, too, would be no longer private property.

~

In a promotional video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx3DhoLFO4s), the World Economic Forum summarizes the eight predictions in the following statements:

- People will own nothing. Goods are either free of charge or must be lent from the state.
- The United States will no longer be the leading superpower, but a handful of countries will dominate.
- Organs will not be transplanted but printed.
- Meat consumption will be minimized.
- Massive displacement of people will take place with billions of refugees.
- To limit the emission of carbon dioxide, a global price will be set at an exorbitant level.
- People can prepare to go to Mars and start a journey to find alien life.
- Western values will be tested to the breaking point..

~

Conclusion

The World Economic Forum and its related institutions in combination with a handful of governments and a few high-tech companies want to lead the world into a new era without property or privacy. Values like individualism, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are at stake, to be repudiated in favor of collectivism and the imposition of a “common good” that is defined by the self-proclaimed elite of technocrats. What is sold to the public as the promise of equality and ecological sustainability is in fact a brutal assault on human dignity and liberty. Instead of using the new technologies as an instrument of betterment, the Great Reset seeks to use the technological possibilities as a tool of enslavement. In this new world order, the state is the single owner of everything. It is left to our imagination to figure out who will program the algorithms that manage the distribution of the goods and services.

World leaders on board:

https://web.archive.org/web/20210131133110/https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/01/29/davos-merkel-macron-coronavirus/

Quote
World leaders pledge a ‘great reset’ after the pandemic

Klaus Schwab, WEF’s founder and executive chairman, invoked the need to help provoke a “great reset” around the world in the wake of the pandemic. “The covid-19 crisis has shown us that our old systems are not fit anymore for the 21st century,” he said in a podcast ahead of events this week.

~

Faced with these grim conclusions, world leaders, at least rhetorically, rose to the occasion. French President Emmanuel Macron declared Tuesday that “we will get out of this pandemic only with an economy that thinks more about fighting inequalities.

~

“The capitalist model together with this open economy can no longer work in this environment,” said Macron.

Kristalina Georgieva, managing director of the International Monetary Fund — a global institution once synonymous with neoliberalism — said that “unless capitalism globally brings people closer together, we won’t be winners after this crisis.” She added that the pandemic had widened the gap between wealthy and poorer nations and that global cooperation on addressing a crisis that knew no borders was “not up to par.”

Those sentiments were echoed by German Chancellor Angela Merkel, who once more used her bully pulpit at Davos to decry nationalism and called attention to the new challenges posed by unequal vaccine distribution around the world. “Let’s not kid ourselves: The question of who gets which vaccine in the world will of course leave new wounds and new memories, because those who get such emergency help will remember that,” she said.

Treaudu on board too: Coronavirus: Trudeau tells UN conference that pandemic provided "opportunity for a reset" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2fp0Jeyjvw&ab_channel=GlobalNews)

Prince Charles was a big proponent, top execs:

https://thehill.com/opinion/energy-environment/504499-introducing-the-great-reset-world-leaders-radical-plan-to

Quote
Introducing the 'Great Reset,' world leaders' radical plan to transform the economy

~

Joining Schwab at the WEF event was Prince Charles, one of the primary proponents of the Great Reset; Gina Gopinath, the chief economist at the International Monetary Fund; António Guterres, the secretary-general of the United Nations; and CEOs and presidents of major international corporations, such as Microsoft and BP.

Activists from groups such as Greenpeace International and a variety of academics also attended the event or have expressed their support for the Great Reset.

Although many details about the Great Reset won’t be rolled out until the World Economic Forum meets in Davos in January 2021, the general principles of the plan are clear: The world needs massive new government programs and far-reaching policies comparable to those offered by American socialists such as Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), and Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.) in their Green New Deal plan.

Or, put another way, we need a form of socialism — a word the World Economic Forum has deliberately avoided using, all while calling for countless socialist and progressive plans.

To defeat the Covid we are now getting rid of capitalism and transitioning to a socialist world where private property is abolished. How exciting everyone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEQcyIGH_vQ
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on July 15, 2021, 12:24:17 AM
Now that the "here's how Trump can still win" mantra has faded, 'the great reset' is what we'll get to hear all about?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on July 15, 2021, 01:05:48 AM
In a promotional video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx3DhoLFO4s), the World Economic Forum summarizes the eight predictions in the following statements:

- People will own nothing. Goods are either free of charge or must be lent from the state.
- The United States will no longer be the leading superpower, but a handful of countries will dominate.
- Organs will not be transplanted but printed.
- Meat consumption will be minimized.
- Massive displacement of people will take place with billions of refugees.
- To limit the emission of carbon dioxide, a global price will be set at an exorbitant level.
- People can prepare to go to Mars and start a journey to find alien life.
- Western values will be tested to the breaking point..

Not to further a great reset discussion when it comes to Covid, but just as an aside, as Tom put it, "I just presented the data. You can make of it as you will."

Fact check: The World Economic Forum does not have a stated goal to have people own nothing by 2030

A video repeating misinformation about the World Economic Forum (WEF) has been shared widely on Facebook.

The WEF does not have a ‘stated goal’ to remove everyone’s private property by 2030. As addressed in previous Reuters fact checks, these claims likely originated from a WEF social media video from 2016 that stated eight predictions about the world in 2030, including: “You’ll own nothing. And you’ll be happy. What you want you’ll rent, and it’ll be delivered by drone.”

Danish politician Ida Auken, who wrote the prediction in question (here), said it was not a “utopia or dream of the future” but “a scenario showing where we could be heading - for better and for worse.”

In a written update, she clarified that the piece aimed to “start a discussion about some of the pros and cons of the current technological development. When we are dealing with the future, it is not enough to work with reports. We should start discussions in many new ways. This is the intention with this piece.”

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-wef/fact-check-the-world-economic-forum-does-not-have-a-stated-goal-to-have-people-own-nothing-by-2030-idUSKBN2AP2T0
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: rooster on July 15, 2021, 01:38:06 AM
Honestly, sounds great. Where do I sign? If I get more covid jabs can I make this happen faster?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: honk on July 15, 2021, 01:39:29 AM
Not to further a great reset discussion when it comes to Covid, but just as an aside, as Tom put it, "I just presented the data. You can make of it as you will."

Fact check: The World Economic Forum does not have a stated goal to have people own nothing by 2030

A video repeating misinformation about the World Economic Forum (WEF) has been shared widely on Facebook.

The WEF does not have a ‘stated goal’ to remove everyone’s private property by 2030. As addressed in previous Reuters fact checks, these claims likely originated from a WEF social media video from 2016 that stated eight predictions about the world in 2030, including: “You’ll own nothing. And you’ll be happy. What you want you’ll rent, and it’ll be delivered by drone.”

Danish politician Ida Auken, who wrote the prediction in question (here), said it was not a “utopia or dream of the future” but “a scenario showing where we could be heading - for better and for worse.”

In a written update, she clarified that the piece aimed to “start a discussion about some of the pros and cons of the current technological development. When we are dealing with the future, it is not enough to work with reports. We should start discussions in many new ways. This is the intention with this piece.”

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-wef/fact-check-the-world-economic-forum-does-not-have-a-stated-goal-to-have-people-own-nothing-by-2030-idUSKBN2AP2T0

Adding on to that point, I'd argue that Auken's article, which you can read for yourself here (https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/11/8-predictions-for-the-world-in-2030), isn't really a serious prediction for 2030 at all. It's more a piece of speculative fiction than anything else. Maybe in a hundred years time, the scenario it describes might be a real possibility, but certainly not in ten.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 15, 2021, 02:13:51 AM
The "debunk" admits that it's a video from the WEF, but suggests that it's unrelated to what the WEF actually wants. The WEF was asked about it and they said it was just what might happen "for better or worse". Wow, compelling. ::)

On its site the WEF is literally calling for wealth redistribution, reformation of capitalism, and government provided incomes:

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/07/great-reset-must-place-social-justice-centre/

"Wealth needs to be more broadly redistributed"

"Governments will need to intervene more to ensure better and fairer outcomes from private sector investments"

"Capitalism as we know it needs to be reformed"

"Capitalism and socialism will need to merge"

"Wealth has become abundant, thanks to capitalism, but it now needs to be more broadly redistributed, as socialists have long called for."

"In the new institutional context, governments will need to intervene more to ensure better and fairer outcomes from private sector investments. One way this can be done is by introducing a universal basic income (UBI) funded by taxing wealth and passive income, and by making better use of public savings."

One article is titled:

(https://i.imgur.com/LGXhnMD.png)

And you are arguing that their video was just an example of what might happen "for better or worse" and is totally unrelated to what these extremists actually want?

The World Economics Forum thinks that maybe that Karl Marx guy was right after all:

The Nation - https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/global-business-elite-go-marxist-davos/

Quote
Strange as it may seem, debates on the dangers of rising income inequality are now de rigueur at the annual gathering of the global business elite at this snowbound Swiss mountain resort. During this year’s four-day meeting of the World Economic Forum, 2,600 corporate CEOs, investment bankers, fund managers and assorted social and intellectual entrepreneurs brainstormed and networked frantically during the day. Then, by night, they slithered from party to party in the old tuberculosis sanitariums—now five-star wellness hotels—along the ice-covered promenade.

More than half the 1,200 investors, analysts and traders consulted in a Bloomberg poll published on the eve of the summit agreed that inequality damages economic growth. “Marx was right; capitalism creates obstacles to its own advancement,” said Roubini. The audience nodded in agreement and then headed off for sessions on new investment opportunities in “frontier markets” like Mongolia and Azerbaijan.

Economist - https://web.archive.org/web/20200516154508if_/https://www.economist.com/books-and-arts/2018/05/03/rulers-of-the-world-read-karl-marx

Quote
The World Economic Forum’s annual jamboree in Davos, Switzerland, might well be retitled “Marx was right”.

They have a video titled: Can You Rent Everything You Need in Life?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kpz6K1sSIPY&ab_channel=WorldEconomicForum

So is this actually something that they don't want? They are clearly trying to sell us on it.

Based on their other materials these aren't actually extreme communists or socialists producing these ideas?

Be honest. It's a video with 143 likes and 2.3K dislikes. Maybe everyone who watched the video just took it the wrong way and the WEF is really promoting things that they don't want but 'may' happen?

(https://i.imgur.com/xrnQED4.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/2ilghwE.png)

Maybe it will work this time.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on July 15, 2021, 06:06:52 AM
Tom spends alot of time on current trends of a capitalist society.

What he calls "communism" is actually just extreme capitalism.

Ever heard of a car lease?  Its a great way for dealerships to make money by having you "rent" a car and giving you another one after a period of time, all while ensuring you never stop paying a monthly fee that is equal to or higher than a car loan.  And you don't own the car at the end of the period. (Unless you buy it which will cost more than its worth)
And if you don't want it, they sell it as a used car.  Its a win-win for capitalism! (Just not consumers)

So expand that model to other areas: Homes (oh we already have that), entertainment(already have that), computers (have that too).

And if say... HP decides they won't sell PCs but only lease them and the other makers follow suite.... What do you think will happen?  Do you think some small company will rise up and become a major player in the field?  Because that hasn't happened yet....
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on July 15, 2021, 06:28:06 AM
To get back on Track...

Tennessee is pandering to its stupid parts.
https://amp.tennessean.com/amp/7928701002?__twitter_impression=true

Summary: The state governemnt thinks vaccines are bad now(for minors) so they want no part in it.  Which includes both corona and normal, done for the last half a century vaccines like HVP, MMR, etc...
Because solociting vaccines for minors is bad, apparently?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 15, 2021, 11:23:19 AM
Oh, so the flu is nearly completely eliminated in the 2020-2021 Flu Season, but COVID runs unchecked during that same period, creating similar numbers to what the flu did in the 2019-2020 Flu Season (38 Million). That definitely makes a lot of sense.  ::)

What's the point you're trying to make? That we shouldn't have had lockdowns, limited travel, mask mandates?
If it isn't Tom's point, I will proudly take that mantle.

You, along with the rest of the crew spewing your Henny Penny, idiotic nonsense, should have willingly stayed home of your free will and volition.

I would have got your groceries and delivered them to your doorstep, just to keep your ill conceived thought processes where they belong.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: rooster on July 15, 2021, 02:10:25 PM

You, along with the rest of the crew spewing your Henny Penny, idiotic nonsense, should have willingly stayed home of your free will and volition.

I would have got your groceries and delivered them to your doorstep, just to keep your ill conceived thought processes where they belong.
Did you deliver groceries then? I did stay home and have groceries delivered to me often. Maybe it was you delivering them, which is nice.

Has anyone said how covid actually gets us away from capitalism or did I miss that part? Because I remember corporations getting a lot of handouts during the lockdown. And-

"U.S. billionaires have gotten about $1.2 trillion richer during the pandemic."
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: WTF_Seriously on July 15, 2021, 02:29:06 PM
Now that the "here's how Trump can still win" mantra has faded, 'the great reset' is what we'll get to hear all about?

Hold on a second.  It's not August 13 yet.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 15, 2021, 03:31:36 PM

You, along with the rest of the crew spewing your Henny Penny, idiotic nonsense, should have willingly stayed home of your free will and volition.

I would have got your groceries and delivered them to your doorstep, just to keep your ill conceived thought processes where they belong.
Did you deliver groceries then? I did stay home and have groceries delivered to me often. Maybe it was you delivering them, which is nice.

Has anyone said how covid actually gets us away from capitalism or did I miss that part? Because I remember corporations getting a lot of handouts during the lockdown. And-

"U.S. billionaires have gotten about $1.2 trillion richer during the pandemic."
Yeah, and many other "non-essential," (I thought for the libtards, the concept of everyone being worthwhile, therefore = essential," was a hill worthy to be won in the SJW fight) received theirs much the same.

All musings uttered by such people are so philosophically and intellectually disingenuous it beggars belief.

You, quite obviously, have no clue as to what constitutes free market capitalism (or worse yet, purposefully) choosing to describe any current world economic system in use (including that of the US), as capitalism.

It isn't.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: rooster on July 15, 2021, 04:05:58 PM
Yeah, and many other "non-essential," received theirs much the same.
Please tell me how non-essential people became richer.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on July 15, 2021, 04:11:28 PM
Yeah, and many other "non-essential," received theirs much the same.
Please tell me how non-essential people became richer.
They lost their jobs, which, in many cases, was their only access to medical insurance, but then got handed a few covidbucks and bidenbucks for their troubles
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: rooster on July 15, 2021, 04:12:39 PM
Yeah, and many other "non-essential," received theirs much the same.
Please tell me how non-essential people became richer.
They lost their jobs, which, in many cases, was their only access to medical insurance, but then got handed a few covidbucks and bidenbucks for their troubles
oh okay, I stand corrected then.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 15, 2021, 05:42:23 PM
Tom spends alot of time on current trends of a capitalist society.

What he calls "communism" is actually just extreme capitalism.

Ever heard of a car lease?  Its a great way for dealerships to make money by having you "rent" a car and giving you another one after a period of time, all while ensuring you never stop paying a monthly fee that is equal to or higher than a car loan.  And you don't own the car at the end of the period. (Unless you buy it which will cost more than its worth)
And if you don't want it, they sell it as a used car.  Its a win-win for capitalism! (Just not consumers)

From the consumer's point of view that's pretty close to communism. Under communism the state owns everything. In this case it's just a matter of defining the big businesses as 'the government'. And seeing as the World Economic Forum comprises of big companies conspiring with world leaders to reshape the economy and the nature of capitalism, 'because of Covid', those businesses basically are the governing body.

They also want to reinvent capitalism to make "society" a stakeholder, suspiciously like the underlying ideas of communism/fascism of years past.

See this on the Great Reset from the Foundation for Economic Education:

https://fee.org/articles/is-stakeholder-capitalism-newspeak-for-economic-fascism/

Quote
Leaders of the World Economic Forum are seeking to implement a Great Reset of capitalism whereby “global stakeholders” cooperate to achieve “shared goals.” In the true spirit of not letting a crisis go to waste, they see the COVID-19 pandemic as presenting a unique opportunity to push their agenda.

"The level of cooperation and ambition this implies is unprecedented. But it is not some impossible dream," World Economic Forum Executive Chairman Klaus Schwab recently observed. "In fact, one silver lining of the pandemic is that it has shown how quickly we can make radical changes to our lifestyles."

Of course, when they say “our lifestyles” they mean your lifestyle, not their own. Their preferred vehicle for achieving their goals is other people’s businesses. In short, what they want is for private businesses to serve the interests of their own curated list of stakeholders rather than (as they see it) concentrating on returning profits to business owners. They want governments to pass laws and tax regimes to cajole businesses towards their favored ends. Since this arrangement still involves a modicum of private ownership of the means of production, they call it “Stakeholder Capitalism.”

It is important to recognize the subversive use of language here. Such a system is all about sidelining the true stakeholders, and undermining capitalism. This is Orwellian Newspeak at its best, since it misuses the word “stakeholder” and is actually closer to economic fascism than capitalism.

~

Why Stakeholder Capitalism Is Socially Destructive

When global re-setters insist that “all” stakeholders should be represented, what they really mean is “I neither eat pizza nor help to produce pizza… but WHAT IS THE PIZZA SHOP DOING FOR ME?!”

It is a boldfaced attempt to substitute the interests of non-stakeholders for the interests of stakeholders, using surreptitious language to blur the line.

“Society as a whole” has no unified goal, and if it did there would be no way to ascertain what it was. So those who try to install “society” as a stakeholder in the activities of corporations, are eager to insert their own goals and interests.

Murray Rothbard puts it well:

    "Whenever someone begins to talk about ‘society’ or ‘society’s’ interest coming before ‘mere individuals and their interest,’ a good operative rule is: guard your pocketbook. And guard yourself! Because behind the facade of ‘society,’ there is always a group of power-hungry doctrinaires and exploiters, ready to take your money and to order your actions and your life. For, somehow, they ‘are’ society!"

~

A system that replaces the goals of true stakeholders with the iron will of ruling elites, which retains nominal private ownership, but uses government force to pressure firms to serve centrally determined goals, looks and smells an awful lot like economic fascism.

Chilling.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 16, 2021, 12:19:26 AM
The debunk article which claimed it was false that the World Economic Forum wanted us to own nothing was clearly a lie. The WEF authored a Forbes article about it:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/worldeconomicforum/2016/11/10/shopping-i-cant-really-remember-what-that-is-or-how-differently-well-live-in-2030/?sh=7b3be43a1735

Quote from: World Economic Forum
Welcome To 2030: I Own Nothing, Have No Privacy And Life Has Never Been Better
World Economic Forum

Welcome to the year 2030. Welcome to my city - or should I say, "our city." I don't own anything. I don't own a car. I don't own a house. I don't own any appliances or any clothes.

It might seem odd to you, but it makes perfect sense for us in this city. Everything you considered a product, has now become a service. We have access to transportation, accommodation, food and all the things we need in our daily lives. One by one all these things became free, so it ended up not making sense for us to own much.

Really, how do you make food free?

Some kind of crazy communist or socialist scheme, undoubtedly.

They also want us to have no privacy. They put that right in the title. What an attractive plan for us.

Living arrangements will be shared:

Quote from: World Economic Forum
In our city we don't pay any rent, because someone else is using our free space whenever we do not need it. My living room is used for business meetings when I am not there.

Real practical. As if anyone wants to hold their business meeting in someone's living room, or that people want to have their living rooms look like a meeting room. I guess in our new life we're going to be living in office spaces and letting our masters know when we're leaving the premises or want to schedule time in the communal make-shift living room. It seems from that quote of having people use free living space when not needed that they want us to share bathrooms and kitchens too. Exciting.

At the bottom of this page (https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/01/davos-agenda-2021-beyond-geopolitics-international-institutions-multilateral-world-social-justice-public-private-partnership/) from the World Leaders part at the bottom that the Presidents of China, France, the European Commission, South Africa, South Korea, Chancellor of Germany, the Secretary General of the UN, Prime Minister of Italy, and Prime Minister of Japan are all interested in implementing the utopian visions of this insane organization for us, as well as Joe Biden and Prince Phillip when he was alive, as we saw on the previous page.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: rooster on July 16, 2021, 02:37:18 AM
Idk, "life has never been better" is also in the title. Sounds p lit tbh.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: honk on July 16, 2021, 06:37:20 AM
The debunk article which claimed it was false that the World Economic Forum wanted us to own nothing was clearly a lie. The WEF authored a Forbes article about it:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/worldeconomicforum/2016/11/10/shopping-i-cant-really-remember-what-that-is-or-how-differently-well-live-in-2030/?sh=7b3be43a1735

That's the exact same article the Reuters piece discussed, and I linked to it a few posts back. You haven't discovered anything new here; you're just revealing that you haven't been paying attention to the things you're responding to. So, like the Reuters piece said, the existence of that article does not mean that the scenario described therein is a "goal" for the WEF or something they've set an "agenda" for, and like I said, the scenario is impossible with today's technology.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 16, 2021, 07:45:40 AM
The debunk article which claimed it was false that the World Economic Forum wanted us to own nothing was clearly a lie. The WEF authored a Forbes article about it:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/worldeconomicforum/2016/11/10/shopping-i-cant-really-remember-what-that-is-or-how-differently-well-live-in-2030/?sh=7b3be43a1735

That's the exact same article the Reuters piece discussed, and I linked to it a few posts back. You haven't discovered anything new here; you're just revealing that you haven't been paying attention to the things you're responding to. So, like the Reuters piece said, the existence of that article does not mean that the scenario described therein is a "goal" for the WEF or something they've set an "agenda" for, and like I said, the scenario is impossible with today's technology.

Are you talking about this Reuters article (https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-wef/fact-check-the-world-economic-forum-does-not-have-a-stated-goal-to-have-people-own-nothing-by-2030-idUSKBN2AP2T0)?

The Reuters link is talking about a video. The Forbes article is neither linked or mentioned in the Reuters article at all. That's incorrect. The Forbes article is clearly trying to sell us the concept as a utopia, and goes into it with more depth than the video did, which represented it as a prediction. They like the concept enough that they are making videos and writing articles about it, and imagining a society based on the concept.

At the bottom of the Forbes article it says that it was written ahead of their annual meeting

Quote
This blog was written ahead of the World Economic Forum Annual Meeting of the Global Future Councils.

Ida Auken is a Young Global Leader and Member of the Global Future Council on Cities and Urbanization of the World Economic Forum,

The person who wrote that article is a Danish Politician and former Minister of the Environment:

(https://i.imgur.com/HYWqAmk.png)

Other articles on the site talk about it as well. That's what all of the "changing capitalism" stuff is about.

Among its predictions in the Forbes article it predicts that transportation costs will drop:

Quote
First communication became digitized and free to everyone. Then, when clean energy became free, things started to move quickly. Transportation dropped dramatically in price.

In another article about the Fourth Industrial Revolution by Klaus Schwab it's making similar predictions:

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/01/the-fourth-industrial-revolution-what-it-means-and-how-to-respond/

Quote
The Fourth Industrial Revolution: what it means, how to respond
Klaus Schwab
Founder and Executive Chairman, World Economic Forum

...

In the future, technological innovation will also lead to a supply-side miracle, with long-term gains in efficiency and productivity. Transportation and communication costs will drop, logistics and global supply chains will become more effective, and the cost of trade will diminish, all of which will open new markets and drive economic growth.

...

The Fourth Industrial Revolution, finally, will change not only what we do but also who we are. It will affect our identity and all the issues associated with it: our sense of privacy, our notions of ownership, our consumption patterns, the time we devote to work and leisure, and how we develop our careers, cultivate our skills, meet people, and nurture relationships. It is already changing our health and leading to a “quantified” self, and sooner than we think it may lead to human augmentation. The list is endless because it is bound only by our imagination.

- Supply-side miracle = Robots will make everything
- Low Transportation Cost = Automated drones and cars
- Sense of Privacy = Loss of Privacy
- Notions of Ownership = Ownership not as important

Same themes as the Forbes article. Not a coincidence. And mastermind Klaus Schwab wrote this article himself. Straight from the horse's mouth. The difference between that Forbes article and this one is that it is apparent that Schwab is being a bit vague about the specifics. But it's apparent that the other lady is stating the same vision.

Schwab and Co. keep going on and on about how we need to "reset capitalism" and an endless array of similar phrases. They are clearly seeking radical change.

An Australian Senator also interprets the aims of the WEF as extreme:

https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/the-great-reset-is-crazy-kooky-stuff-which-aims-for-no-private-property-by-2030/video/89852f7d31c1960fec83113a60069df7

Quote
The Great Reset is ‘crazy, kooky stuff’ which aims for ‘no private property by 2030’
November 17, 2020 - 23:18PM

Nationals Senator Matt Canavan says the World Economic Forum’s plan for the Great Reset is “crazy, kooky stuff”.

Mr Canavan said the Forum recently released a video clip outlining that by 2030, “they don’t want anyone to own property”.

“You’ll own no property and you’ll be happier apparently,” he said.

“This stuff is crazy, kooky stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Canavan

According to his bio he's an Australian Senator, an Economist, and former Minister of Resources. How is it that he understands that the material they produce represents what they want and what this is but you don't?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: stack on July 16, 2021, 08:45:15 AM
The debunk article which claimed it was false that the World Economic Forum wanted us to own nothing was clearly a lie. The WEF authored a Forbes article about it:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/worldeconomicforum/2016/11/10/shopping-i-cant-really-remember-what-that-is-or-how-differently-well-live-in-2030/?sh=7b3be43a1735

That's the exact same article the Reuters piece discussed, and I linked to it a few posts back. You haven't discovered anything new here; you're just revealing that you haven't been paying attention to the things you're responding to. So, like the Reuters piece said, the existence of that article does not mean that the scenario described therein is a "goal" for the WEF or something they've set an "agenda" for, and like I said, the scenario is impossible with today's technology.

Are you talking about this Reuters article (https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-wef/fact-check-the-world-economic-forum-does-not-have-a-stated-goal-to-have-people-own-nothing-by-2030-idUSKBN2AP2T0)?

The Reuters link is talking about a video. The Forbes article is neither linked or mentioned at all. That's incorrect. The article is clearly trying to sell us the concept as a utopia, and goes into it with more depth than the video did, which represented it as a prediction. They like the concept enough that they are making videos and writing articles about it, and imagining a society based on the concept.

At the bottom of the Forbes article it says that it was written ahead of their annual meeting

Quote
This blog was written ahead of the World Economic Forum Annual Meeting of the Global Future Councils.

Ida Auken is a Young Global Leader and Member of the Global Future Council on Cities and Urbanization of the World Economic Forum,

The person who wrote that article is a Danish Politician and former Minister of the Environment:

(https://i.imgur.com/HYWqAmk.png)

The video that Reuters refers to is an outgrowth of Auken's blog post, which you already cited, "Welcome to 2030. I Own Nothing, Have No Privacy, and Life Has Never Been Better"

In an update, which Reuters also referenced, she states:

"Author’s note: Some people have read this blog as my utopia or dream of the future. It is not. It is a scenario showing where we could be heading – for better and for worse. I wrote this piece to start a discussion about some of the pros and cons of the current technological development. When we are dealing with the future, it is not enough to work with reports. We should start discussions in many new ways. This is the intention with this piece.

Written by Ida Auken, Member of Parliament, Parliament of Denmark (Folketinget)
"
https://futurism.com/welcome-2030-nothing-privacy-life-better

Not to mention at the bottom of every article published on the WEF site it has the caveat "The views expressed in this article are those of the author alone and not the World Economic Forum."

Lastly, the article and video were from like 2016. You know, a few years before Covid. So how is it relevant to this thread?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 16, 2021, 09:31:48 AM
Quote
Some people have read this blog as my utopia or dream of the future. It is not. It is a scenario showing where we could be heading – for better and for worse.

Even in her response to the criticism she suggests that she thinks that it's a scenario that we're heading for, "for better and for worse". Was she writing an article about what she doesn't think is going to happen? No. She clearly wouldn't be writing something she didn't think could happen. The video was about what the WEF predicted, and was paraded around with their logo. The article describes the vision more at length.

Her vision is nearly identical in its themes to Klaus Schwab's vision in his article. You did not even address that. I also notice that you didn't address all of the Marxist and socialist crap that they spew, and their wanting to 'reimagine capitalism', redistribute wealth, or anything else that fits hand-in-glove with this.

She's in the Global Leader Under 40 group and is on the Global Future Council on Cities and Urbanization of the World Economic Forum:

Quote
Ida Auken is a Young Global Leader and Member of the Global Future Council on Cities and Urbanization of the World Economic Forum

Obviously she represents that organization and the argument that she doesn't represent WEF is blatantly wrong.

Quote from: stack
Lastly, the article and video were from like 2016. You know, a few years before Covid. So how is it relevant to this thread?

They are using Covid to push through their Great Reset that 'reimagines' and 'resets' capitalism.

https://www.weforum.org/focus/the-great-reset

Quote
"The pandemic represents a rare but narrow window of opportunity to reflect, reimagine, and reset our world" - Professor Klaus Schwab, Founder and Executive Chairman, World Economic Forum.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/07/affluence-bigger-threat-than-coronavirus-scientists-capitalism/

Quote
The World Economic Forum has called for a great reset of capitalism in the wake of the pandemic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeykREAlYSg&ab_channel=SkyNewsAustralia

I'm of the opinion that we don't need to change the nature of capitalism because of Covid or climate change. Maybe you can tell us in your own words why capitalism needs to be changed because of the Covid. Lets hear your arguments in favor of this.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 16, 2021, 03:21:49 PM
I'm of the opinion that we don't need to change the nature of capitalism because of Covid or climate change.
Tom, you cannot possibly believe there is anything remotely resembling capitalism in action in today's world.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 16, 2021, 05:12:52 PM
I'm of the opinion that we don't need to change the nature of capitalism because of Covid or climate change.
Tom, you cannot possibly believe there is anything remotely resembling capitalism in action in today's world.

Well yes, we are already so socialized with heavy regulations, taxes, and social programs that it's obvious that these are just socialists and communists who want to go all the way with it now. Give a hand, they take an arm.

Notice that the liberals here can't muster even the weakest defense on the views of needing to "reimagine capitalism" to deal with Covid. It's extremist and ridiculous on its face. They are also hesitant to disavow it, because if you are still a Democrat at this point you are practically a full blown socialist/communist wanting to see through anything that falls in line with your views, even if they appear to be crazed rantings of a bond-villain born in Nazi Germany.

Listen to this short clip of how Fidel Castro described his system of government and compare it to what the Democrats and liberals are chanting:

https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1415661579887157252/pu/vid/1280x592/I4KX-5icDahFA2fo.mp4
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on July 16, 2021, 05:29:20 PM
Anyway, back on topic, France is upping the ante.

Quote from: https://www.euronews.com/2021/07/16/europe-s-week-macron-s-vaccine-push-eu-s-green-plans-and-deadly-floods
Macron is done politely pleading with the French to get vaccinated.

He is now playing hardball and came with the shock announcement that life for the unvaccinated will become miserable.

"From the beginning of August, the health pass will apply to cafés, restaurants and shopping centres, as well as in hospitals, retirement homes and medical and social establishments, and also on planes, trains and buses for long journeys. Again, only those who have been vaccinated and tested negative will be allowed access to these places," Macron said earlier this week.

The prospect of not being able to do anything fun during the summer and beyond made people jump into action.

In the first 24 hours after the speech, more than a million people booked vaccination appointments – 20,000 per minute. A record since the start of the campaign.

Vive la France!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on July 20, 2021, 11:17:13 AM
The Netherlands is leading the world in innovative ideas again. You can now go to Haarlem for a jab and a blind date (https://www.nu.nl/facebooklinks/6146668/ggd-komt-met-datingavond-in-haarlem-sjansen-met-janssen.html) while you wait to be allowed to leave the testing centre. The idea is to help single people for whom the lockdown has been particularly lonely.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Iceman on July 20, 2021, 01:16:24 PM
That's an awesome plan.

Here our public health authorities just told people during the peak of the pandemic that if they had to keep hooking up with tinder dates, they should do it doggy style, reverse cow girl or use glory holes.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 20, 2021, 01:18:12 PM
That’s right, Canada’s government fucks.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 21, 2021, 05:36:20 PM
Anyway, back on topic, France is upping the ante.

Quote from: https://www.euronews.com/2021/07/16/europe-s-week-macron-s-vaccine-push-eu-s-green-plans-and-deadly-floods
Macron is done politely pleading with the French to get vaccinated.

He is now playing hardball and came with the shock announcement that life for the unvaccinated will become miserable.

"From the beginning of August, the health pass will apply to cafés, restaurants and shopping centres, as well as in hospitals, retirement homes and medical and social establishments, and also on planes, trains and buses for long journeys. Again, only those who have been vaccinated and tested negative will be allowed access to these places," Macron said earlier this week.

The prospect of not being able to do anything fun during the summer and beyond made people jump into action.

In the first 24 hours after the speech, more than a million people booked vaccination appointments – 20,000 per minute. A record since the start of the campaign.

Vive la France!

Please familiarize yourself with the Nuremberg Code.

(https://i.imgur.com/79P80I6.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 21, 2021, 06:03:48 PM
One for Tom

https://newsthump.com/2021/07/19/no-one-has-the-right-to-tell-me-what-to-do-with-my-body-insists-anti-vaxxer-who-says-women-shouldnt-have-right-to-choose/
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 21, 2021, 06:10:50 PM
One for Tom

https://newsthump.com/2021/07/19/no-one-has-the-right-to-tell-me-what-to-do-with-my-body-insists-anti-vaxxer-who-says-women-shouldnt-have-right-to-choose/

I don't think you should be disallowed from aborting your seed. I encourage you, in particular, to do so.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tumeni on July 21, 2021, 11:10:31 PM
Please familiarize yourself with the Nuremberg Code.

(https://i.imgur.com/79P80I6.png)

That's not what the New England Journal of Medicine think it's for.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejm199711133372006
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 21, 2021, 11:28:26 PM
That's not what the New England Journal of Medicine think it's for.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejm199711133372006

The article says that it applies to ulterior form of constraint and coercion, not just direct forced injection:

Quote
1.The voluntary consent of the human subject is absolutely essential.

This means that the person involved should have legal capacity to give consent; should be so situated as to be able to exercise free power of choice, without the intervention of any element of force, fraud, deceit, duress, overreaching, or other ulterior form of constraint or coercion; and should have sufficient knowledge and comprehension of the elements of the subject matter involved as to enable him to make an understanding and enlightened decision

It then goes on to give an example with the malaria treatment from Andrew Ivy, co-author of the code:

Quote
Ivy explained that these common-sense principles mirrored the understanding shared by everyone in practice in the medical community.12 The first principle was that a physician would never do anything to a patient or subject before obtaining his or her consent. Ivy also asserted that, unlike Leibbrand, he did not consider prisoners to be in an inherently coercive situation and thus unable to give consent, because in democratic countries where the rights of individuals are respected, prisoners can always say yes or no without fear of being punished.12 He testified:

"The American malaria experiments with 800 or more prisoners were absolutely justified, scientifically, legally and ethically even if they bring with them danger to human life. To treat malaria was an important scientific problem, and so long as the subjects volunteer and are explained the hazards of the experiments, there is no ethical reason against it. . . . If prisoners condemned to death are volunteers, then it was ethical to do just that."

During cross-examination, Ivy acknowledged that there were no written principles of research in the United States or elsewhere before December 1946 and that the principles adopted by the American Medical Association were expressly formulated for the Doctors' Trial.12 Ivy also recognized that the right of the research subject to withdraw from an experiment may not always exist, as in the malaria experiments in which the subjects had already been infected, or in dangerous experiments in which the subjects could be severely injured or fatally harmed. Ivy agreed with Leibbrand that researchers must refuse to conduct experiments on human beings when ordered by the state in order “to save lives,” because in such cases subjects would not be volunteers. He declared that “[t]here is no justification in killing five people in order to save the lives of five hundred” and that “no state or politician under the sun could force [him] to perform a medical experiment which [he] thought was morally unjustified.”12 Ivy also stressed that the state may not assume the moral responsibility of physicians to their patients or research subjects, arguing that “[E]very physician should be acquainted with the Hippocratic Oath [which] represents the Golden Rule of the medical profession in the United States, and, to [his] knowledge, throughout the world.”12

See the last bolded piece. It doesn't matter if the treatment saves many lives. It's still unethical to coerce people into taking it.

The article also emphasizes the right to withdraw:

Quote
Medical Ethics and Human Rights

The judges at Nuremberg, although they realized the importance of Hippocratic ethics and the maxim primum non nocere, recognized that more was necessary to protect human research subjects. Accordingly, the judges articulated a sophisticated set of 10 research principles centered not on the physician but on the research subject. These principles, which we know as the Nuremberg Code, included a new, comprehensive, and absolute requirement of informed consent (principle 1), and a new right of the subject to withdraw from participation in an experiment (principle 9). The judges adopted much of the language proposed by Alexander and Ivy but were more emphatic about the necessity and attributes of the subject's consent and explicitly added the subject's right to withdraw.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tumeni on July 22, 2021, 10:27:27 AM
The repeated word/phrase in the code is experiment/experimentation.

Applying a vaccine to prevent the spread of a pandemic is not experimentation. It's a treatment.

Wikipedia;

"The Nuremberg Code (German: Nürnberger Kodex) is a set of research ethics principles for human experimentation created by the USA v Brandt court as one result of the Nuremberg trials at the end of the Second World War. In a review written on the 50th anniversary of the Brandt verdict, Katz writes that "a careful reading of the judgment suggests that" the authors wrote the Kodex "for the practice of human experimentation whenever it is being conducted.""
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on July 22, 2021, 10:56:15 AM

You, along with the rest of the crew spewing your Henny Penny, idiotic nonsense, should have willingly stayed home of your free will and volition.

I would have got your groceries and delivered them to your doorstep, just to keep your ill conceived thought processes where they belong.
Did you deliver groceries then? I did stay home and have groceries delivered to me often. Maybe it was you delivering them, which is nice.

Has anyone said how covid actually gets us away from capitalism or did I miss that part? Because I remember corporations getting a lot of handouts during the lockdown. And-

"U.S. billionaires have gotten about $1.2 trillion richer during the pandemic."
Yeah, and many other "non-essential," (I thought for the libtards, the concept of everyone being worthwhile, therefore = essential," was a hill worthy to be won in the SJW fight) received theirs much the same.

All musings uttered by such people are so philosophically and intellectually disingenuous it beggars belief.

You, quite obviously, have no clue as to what constitutes free market capitalism (or worse yet, purposefully) choosing to describe any current world economic system in use (including that of the US), as capitalism.

It isn't.

I mean... Its regulated capitalism, but still based on the accumulation of profit.  Not like... Communism or barter system.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 22, 2021, 04:31:55 PM
The repeated word/phrase in the code is experiment/experimentation.

Applying a vaccine to prevent the spread of a pandemic is not experimentation. It's a treatment.

Wikipedia;

"The Nuremberg Code (German: Nürnberger Kodex) is a set of research ethics principles for human experimentation created by the USA v Brandt court as one result of the Nuremberg trials at the end of the Second World War. In a review written on the 50th anniversary of the Brandt verdict, Katz writes that "a careful reading of the judgment suggests that" the authors wrote the Kodex "for the practice of human experimentation whenever it is being conducted.""

The vaccines haven't been tested long term. They are new, and involve never before deployed genetic programming which permanently reprograms our bodies to produce a substance it does not normally produce. How in the world is that not experimental?

It usually takes a long period of time to test drugs and vaccines:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK24645/

Drug Animal Testing:

"This stage of safety testing usually takes about 4 years. Drug companies test for mutagenicity (ability to cause genetic changes) and carcinogenicity (ability to cause cancer). The drugs are also tested to confirm that they do not cause infertility (inability to have children) or birth defects. This stage of safety testing takes many years, because it may take a long period of time for animals to develop cancer or infertility as a result of a toxic drug."

It takes years for a reason.

The whole process of human drug testing typically takes a long time:

"Clinical testing is complex and time-consuming, averaging 14 years to complete Phase I through III testing to gain FDA approval."

Typical vaccine development:

https://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/vaccine-development-testing-and-regulation

"Vaccine development is a long, complex process, often lasting 10-15 years and involving a combination of public and private involvement."

So it takes 10 to 15 years normally. Why is that? Because they don't want to give people things which might cause adverse effects down the line.

Obviously if Nazi Germany was claiming that its experiments during WWII were "approved" and "fine", and "in our estimation it's safe" and "we tested it on some mice for a short time," that would still violate the Nuremberg Code when they forced it on people. The government's opinion is irrelevant. They are still experiments, no matter what the government claims.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 22, 2021, 07:24:05 PM
The mRNA vaccine platform has been tested on humans since at least 2008 and shown to be safe. The question is whether the spike protein replication is safe; this is not an entirely settled question.

Regardless, the decision was made to allow emergency use. I find citing international agreements to be a bit disingenuous, since the US flagrantly gives no fucks about them in a number of areas, so clearly an adherence to this particular one is merely politically motivated.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on July 22, 2021, 07:31:06 PM
Regardless, the decision was made to allow emergency use. I find citing international agreements to be a bit disingenuous, since the US flagrantly gives no fucks about them in a number of areas, so clearly an adherence to this particular one is merely politically motivated.
The Nuremberg Code isn't even an international agreement. It's a set of guidelines some people wrote down 70 years ago, and which has inspired various treaties and laws, but by itself it has no power, legal or otherwise, anywhere in the world.

I was trying to ignore this obviously terrible troll, but apparently other people have decided to engage, so I've said my piece now.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tumeni on July 22, 2021, 08:09:02 PM
The vaccines haven't been tested long term.

For blatantly obvious reasons. One of which was the loss of 600k American lives. Many others worldwide.

They are new, and involve never before deployed genetic programming which permanently reprograms our bodies to produce a substance it does not normally produce. How in the world is that not experimental?

It is not for the purpose of an experiment. It is to save lives.

It usually takes a long period of time to test drugs and vaccines: .... 10 to 15 years normally. Why is that? Because they don't want to give people things which might cause adverse effects down the line.

600k deaths in less than a year should make it clear to you that the standard 10 to 15 years were not available.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 23, 2021, 06:22:10 AM
The Hypocratic Oath isn't legally binding either. People value it for reasons other than legality.

Quote from: Tumeni
It is not for the purpose of an experiment. It is to save lives.

So the Nazis just had to say "it was to save lives" and their forced medical experiments would be okay?

Quote from: Tumeni
600k deaths in less than a year should make it clear to you that the standard 10 to 15 years were not available.

China didn't have a problem with extinguishing Covid without forcefully or coersively injecting experiments into people. Their pandemic only lasted about a month and a half or so. What's the problem with your country?

(https://i.imgur.com/xE2bKdc.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 23, 2021, 10:24:32 AM
Tom supports the CCP welding people in to their homes and lying about COVID cases to bring numbers down. Interesting strategy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 23, 2021, 10:52:26 AM
Tom supports the CCP welding people in to their homes and lying about COVID cases to bring numbers down. Interesting strategy.
Yes, it's interesting that Tom now thinks China are the bastions of truth.
How'd ya like them cherries?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tumeni on July 23, 2021, 12:38:07 PM
So the Nazi's just had to say "it was to save lives" and their forced medical experiments would be okay?

False equivalence.

Germany had invaded Poland first, and then other countries within Europe. There was a war on, with France, UK, and latterly the USA, all joining as allies to fight back the Germans, defend their own countries, and halt what the Germans were doing to the Jews and others.

None of that applies here and now.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 23, 2021, 08:01:05 PM
Tom supports the CCP welding people in to their homes and lying about COVID cases to bring numbers down. Interesting strategy.

Pretty sure forced quarantine is more morally justifiable than forced experimental injection.
 
What do you think happens to you when you are on board a ship and your shipmates are found to be communicating a contagious disease? Quarantine.

How is it that China knew what to do, but other countries led many thousands to their deaths?

So the Nazi's just had to say "it was to save lives" and their forced medical experiments would be okay?

False equivalence.

Germany had invaded Poland first, and then other countries within Europe. There was a war on, with France, UK, and latterly the USA, all joining as allies to fight back the Germans, defend their own countries, and halt what the Germans were doing to the Jews and others.

None of that applies here and now.

Uh, what? The Nuremberg Code was created because of Germany, but wasn't directed only at Germany. Not sure why you think only the Nazis can do unethical things.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: scomato on July 23, 2021, 11:05:06 PM
If you've ever eaten fast food, it's hypocritical to be anti-vax, since that burger patty contains just as much animal vaccine, growth hormone, and antibiotic substances than you could ever fit in half a milliliter of vaccine.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rushy on July 24, 2021, 12:20:25 AM
The correct risk control behavior is to:

1. Not take the vaccine, wear a mask when necessary and avoid social gatherings
2. Encourage other people to take it (as long as they aren't family or friends)

Then, you successfully take full advantage of having others shoulder the burden of possible vaccine side effects while acquiring herd immunity.

Please get vaccinated, by the way.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 24, 2021, 01:19:26 AM
Tom supports the CCP welding people in to their homes and lying about COVID cases to bring numbers down. Interesting strategy.

Pretty sure forced quarantine is more morally justifiable than forced experimental injection.

Are people being held down and injected?
 
Quote
What do you think happens to you when you are on board a ship and your shipmates are found to be communicating a contagious disease? Quarantine.

Lol.

Quote
How is it that China knew what to do, but other countries led many thousands to their deaths?

Ask your government why they tried to balance individual rights against collective rights.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 24, 2021, 04:25:27 AM
Are people being held down and injected?

Pretty much. They are being told that they can't go to the hospital or to shopping centers if they don't get the injection:

Quote
"From the beginning of August, the health pass will apply to cafés, restaurants and shopping centres, as well as in hospitals, retirement homes and medical and social establishments, and also on planes, trains and buses for long journeys. Again, only those who have been vaccinated and tested negative will be allowed access to these places," Macron said earlier this week.

Quote from: Rama Set
Ask your government why they tried to balance individual rights against collective rights.

Just a few posts ago you were arguing in favor of breaking the Nuremberg Code to force or coerce people into taking the experimental vaccines. Now you are arguing that being put into quarantine infringes on rights.  ::)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 24, 2021, 11:03:22 AM
Are people being held down and injected?

Pretty much. They are being told that they can't go to the hospital or to shopping centers if they don't get the injection:

Quote
"From the beginning of August, the health pass will apply to cafés, restaurants and shopping centres, as well as in hospitals, retirement homes and medical and social establishments, and also on planes, trains and buses for long journeys. Again, only those who have been vaccinated and tested negative will be allowed access to these places," Macron said earlier this week.

So no one is being held down and injected.

Quote
Quote from: Rama Set
Ask your government why they tried to balance individual rights against collective rights.

Just a few posts ago you were arguing in favor of breaking the Nuremberg Code to force or coerce people into taking the experimental vaccines. Now you are arguing that being put into quarantine infringes on rights.  ::)

This is spectacularly terrible, even for you. It’s sad and pathetic that you can’t make an argument without absolutely distorting what I’ve said. I regret having engaged. Go back to tilting at windmills.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: J-Man on July 24, 2021, 05:25:49 PM
It now looks like info of whats in these gene therapy shots is being released. It ain't pretty.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/video-breaking-discovery-what-covid-injections-do-your-blood-doctor-releases-horrific-findings/5750573
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 24, 2021, 05:46:05 PM
So no one is being held down and injected.
They’re not, but I do think Tom is on to something here.

Ok, so you don’t have to have the vaccine.
But if you don’t then you can’t go into a nightclub (in the UK from September). And let’s say they extend that to restaurants and concerts and theatres. What about shops? So sure, you’re completely free to not have the vaccine. They’re not going to strap you down and make you, but they could certainly make increasing restrictions to the point where there’s not much quality of life if you don’t.

Now, I do think most people should have the vaccine. But most young people who get it will have mild symptoms. So if they decide they don’t want the vaccine then should they be coerced like this? The argument is that they could still catch it and spread it to more vulnerable people but:

1) So can vaccinated people
2) If almost all the vulnerable people have been vaccinated then they shouldn’t be at risk anyway.

I speak as someone who has been fully vaccinated, I’m young enough (just!) that I’m not at major risk, but it did seem like the right thing to do. But I do think there’s a principle here that this sort of coercion to almost force people to have the vaccine if they want to get on with their normal lives is morally questionable.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 24, 2021, 06:00:30 PM
To be fair, Tom isn’t on to something. This is what you, a reasonable person, has teased out of his tripe.

I don’t think there should be government ordinances forcing businesses to act one way or another, but if a business wants to reject unvaccinated people then I support that choice. If the government wants to provide accessible, virtual alternatives to unvaccinated people to use services, I also support that.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on July 24, 2021, 06:03:31 PM
The argument is that they could still catch it and spread it to more vulnerable people but:

1) So can vaccinated people
This point keeps being raised, and the best thing that can be said about it is that it is technically true. Depending on the specific vaccine, choosing not to be vaccinated increases your chances of developing symptoms by a factor of between 3 and 10. Even if you do get infected after being vaccinated, you are likely to experience a shorter time to recovery, which reduces the number of opportunities you have to spread the virus.

2) If almost all the vulnerable people have been vaccinated then they shouldn’t be at risk anyway.
Unless a new vaccine-resistant strain develops as a result of widespread recklessness around the spread of the virus, as we have already discussed in another thread.

But I do think there’s a principle here that this sort of coercion to almost force people to have the vaccine if they want to get on with their normal lives is morally questionable.
This is sort of like saying that it's morally questionable to require people with HIV to inform potential sexual partners of their condition. It is, after all, a restriction on their ability to lead a normal sex life. If you are a risk to public health and you choose not to mitigate that risk to others, you get to deal with the consequences.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 24, 2021, 07:09:13 PM
This is sort of like saying that it's morally questionable to require people with HIV to inform potential sexual partners of their condition. It is, after all, a restriction on their ability to lead a normal sex life. If you are a risk to public health and you choose not to mitigate that risk to others, you get to deal with the consequences.
Hmm. I think that’s a bit of a false equivalence but there is a principle here worth discussing.

I’d suggest that any policy here should surely be based on how much of a risk you actually are to public health.

We are, remember, talking about a virus which has a CFR (Case Fatality Rate) of about 1% here. And that risk is very much skewed towards older people. There is “long Covid” too of course and this pandemic has caused a lot of pressure on health services around the world. But this is not a disease which is decimating populations around the world.

 So any policies to deal with it should surely be proportional to the actual risk. If someone has a disease which kills 90% of people then sure, fuck human rights. You’ve got to lock that down. But that really isn’t the case here. You have the danger of mutations but couldn’t you say that about any virus at any time?

In life we deal with risk all the time. There are rules about how we drive and rightly so. You can’t just let people do whatever they want. But you don’t make everyone drive at 20mph so no one gets run over. You balance the risk against the practicalities of being able to get places.

My gut feeling is that stopping non vaccinated people from going to venues is out of proportion to the actual risk although that is hard to quantify. And I agree with Rama that if individual businesses want to make that their policy then that is literally their business, I’m just uneasy with it being made policy and effectively creating different “classes” of people.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Pete Svarrior on July 24, 2021, 07:10:17 PM
This point keeps being raised, and the best thing that can be said about it is that it is technically true. Depending on the specific vaccine, choosing not to be vaccinated increases your chances of developing symptoms by a factor of between 3 and 10. Even if you do get infected after being vaccinated, you are likely to experience a shorter time to recovery, which reduces the number of opportunities you have to spread the virus.
It's also worth highlighting that someone asymptomatic is, in some ways*, less likely to spread the virus whilst infected. An obvious example: coughing is more likely to project aerosols/droplets over some distance than regular breathing. This is especially significant now that restrictions and other countermeasures are easing in many parts of the world.

* - Obligatory disclaimer that an asymptomatic individual can also be more likely to spread the virus due to insufficient caution - they might not be cautious if they don't even know they're infectious.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: xasop on July 24, 2021, 08:16:14 PM
I’d suggest that any policy here should surely be based on how much of a risk you actually are to public health.
Agreed.

My gut feeling is that stopping non vaccinated people from going to venues is out of proportion to the actual risk although that is hard to quantify.
That's a position I can respect, but only if you are consistent and also say that lockdown was always an excessive measure. If a vaccine-resistant strain develops, and if lockdown is a justifiable measure against a strain of this virus for which we have no vaccine, then allowing unvaccinated people to spread the virus is only likely to bring another year of lockdown while new vaccines are developed.

So, either there is no significant risk involved and we won't need another lockdown to deal with a vaccine-resistant strain — in which case we shouldn't have had the lockdown we already had — or we should be doing all we can to avoid further lockdowns with incentives to be vaccinated.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 24, 2021, 10:08:23 PM
My gut feeling is that stopping non vaccinated people from going to venues is out of proportion to the actual risk although that is hard to quantify.
That's a position I can respect, but only if you are consistent and also say that lockdown was always an excessive measure.

My opinion about that has changed a few times during the pandemic.
We have spoken about the consequences of lockdowns - there is a debate to be had about whether this was a situation serious enough to justify lockdowns. I actually spoke to a doctor about this - she wasn't sure either. As she noted, what we can't know is what would have happened had we not locked down. This was definitely a situation which required a response, whether lockdowns were the right response...I'm a bit sceptical about that. Especially about the way they've been implemented here. We have typically locked down too late and with so many exceptions to render them ineffective. It's been lose lose - we've still had large waves of deaths and full hospitals and all the effects that lockdowns cause. Australia seem to have done this far more effectively with lockdowns being imposed quickly and been much stricter. They've had 1,269 cases per million (we've had 83,057) and 35 deaths per million (we've had 1,890).
(source: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/)
So if you are going to do lockdowns, do them properly or don't bother.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on July 25, 2021, 02:26:26 PM
I go back to the office in a couple weeks, and I'm not looking forward to it. It's going to be challenging to avoid directly blaming every asshole I come across who refuses to get the vaccine for the surges we're seeing right now.

It's become very simple; we are essentially two societies now. One is saying "I'm gonna do what I can to mitigate the spread of this virus in service of the greater good."

The other is saying "Fuck the greater good, MAH RIGHTS! >o<".

That side that's more concerned about individual rights than the greater good. Well fine, technically maybe you shouldn't be forced to be vaccinated. But understand something.

You are the problem! You! If we end up going through oppressive lockdowns again, it will be entirely your fault! If a new variant comes about that is resistant to this vaccine and sends us back to square one, that's ALL ON YOU! Because freedom!

So, you know, go ahead and cling to this fantasy that you're doing what's right by standing up for your rights ( and that you're not, you know, acting as a political puppet by standing up for your right to not do something for the greater good). In the beginning, this pandemic was everybody's problem equally. No matter what your political affiliation, this problem couldn't be blamed on any of us as individuals. But that changed as soon as effective vaccines were found. From that point on we all took on some
personal responsibility for eradicating this thing.

If you're refusing to get the vaccine you are the problem. Period. Keep whingeing about your rights, whatever. Keep whining that steps taken to ensure enough of the population takes the vaccine to eliminate the problem are fascist. Fine. You have rights as an individual and no one should be able to force you to do anything medical if you don't want to, blah blah blah.

If that's your attitude, all the ill this virus causes from here on out is on your shoulders. Period.

It's going to be very difficult for me to not share this point of view loudly and vocally when I go back in to the office. :(
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on July 25, 2021, 03:11:38 PM
I get my first dose next week.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 26, 2021, 11:22:10 AM
The most absolutely morally reprehensible thing ever foisted upon this forum is the fear mongering pushed by the usual crowd here. A disease that has a survivability rate of 99.7 percent for ALL creatures, great and small.

Think about it. A vaccine for a disease that has (at best, as the numbers were acknowledged to be inflated from the get go by Dr. Birx) a 99.7 percent survivability rate for EVERYONE!

Those pushing the fear agenda should go lie down in a corner somewhere.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 26, 2021, 11:30:54 AM
A disease that has a survivability rate of 99.7 percent for ALL creatures, great and small.
What is your source for that figure?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 26, 2021, 12:59:32 PM
Look it up yourself. I am not going to do work for you.

There are 7 billion people in the world.

Even if you take the inflated death toll numbers of this disease (and that is a fact the death toll was overreported and misattributed), this disease is a NOTHING BURGER and the only reason for its hype is to serve the BIG LIE, successfully promulgated and promoted by people like you.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 26, 2021, 01:27:19 PM
Look it up yourself.
I have, some time ago, and I got a very different answer. So I'm interested in your source.

Quote
Even if you take the inflated death toll numbers of this disease (and that is a fact the death toll was overreported and misattributed), this disease is a NOTHING BURGER
I disagree. Here are the age adjusted figures for all cause mortality in the UK. It's 30 years of data with a consistently falling mortality rate and then last year it jumps up. And it's worth noting that many of the Covid deaths came in 2021 so it'll be interesting to see what the graph will be like when this year's data is added.

(https://i.ibb.co/0GsjqjS/Death-Rates-UK.jpg)

So something caused a lot of extra deaths last year, and looking at the data in the UK this Jan/Feb I suspect we'll see that this year too. So it's clearly not nothing.

The problem here is none of us have lived through a pandemic before. Some people seem to be expecting piles of bodies in the street like in Contagion. I don't think that's how these things play out in real life.

The CFR is about 1% in a developed country from the things I've read. And that's skewed towards older people. Plus there's people who get "long Covid". Sure, they might not die but they're getting quite poorly for a long time. This isn't just the flu. It's clearly a situation which demanded a response. I'm not convinced lockdowns were the right response but a lot of people were dying, a lot of others were getting ill enough to require hospital treatment and that was putting a lot of pressure on health services and meant it required a response.

Whether it was the right response is a different debate.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 26, 2021, 01:41:25 PM
^ Claiming that a single disease wiped out over .3 percent of the world's population last year.

AMAZING!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on July 26, 2021, 02:04:27 PM
The most absolutely morally reprehensible thing ever foisted upon this forum is the fear mongering pushed by the usual crowd here. A disease that has a survivability rate of 99.7 percent for ALL creatures, great and small.

Think about it. A vaccine for a disease that has (at best, as the numbers were acknowledged to be inflated from the get go by Dr. Birx) a 99.7 percent survivability rate for EVERYONE!

Those pushing the fear agenda should go lie down in a corner somewhere.

I'm really not trying to fearmonger here. I'm just being real. If you want to put your individual rights above getting rid of this thing for good that's your prerogative; you're right, you have the right to be a douchebag and ruin life for everyone else. Just understand that that's what you're doing by standing up to the rights that Tucker Carlson tells you you should be standing up for. Enjoy that empty exercise of "freedom". But I will be blaming you personally for everything bad we have to deal with from this thing from here on out, including any further restrictions on our freedom. If we have another lockdown it's your fault, Lackey. If a variant comes about that is resistant to the vaccine it's your fault, Lackey. Because Tucker Carlson told you to stand up for your rights, you puppet.

At this point I'm not going for fear. I'm more going for shame and possibly ostracization.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 26, 2021, 02:24:14 PM
^ Claiming that a single disease wiped out over .3 percent of the world's population last year.

AMAZING!
Is that a response to me? How the hell did you get that from my post?
You really have to stop straw manning people.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on July 26, 2021, 02:25:56 PM
Look it up yourself. I am not going to do work for you.

There are 7 billion people in the world.

Even if you take the inflated death toll numbers of this disease (and that is a fact the death toll was overreported and misattributed), this disease is a NOTHING BURGER and the only reason for its hype is to serve the BIG LIE, successfully promulgated and promoted by people like you.

There's no point in debating if you don't understand statistics, the basis for why this virus was so dangerous, hospitalization rates, or that 99.99999% of species "great and small" can't get this disease so the survival rate for them is 100%
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 26, 2021, 03:26:49 PM
The most absolutely morally reprehensible thing ever foisted upon this forum is the fear mongering pushed by the usual crowd here. A disease that has a survivability rate of 99.7 percent for ALL creatures, great and small.

Think about it. A vaccine for a disease that has (at best, as the numbers were acknowledged to be inflated from the get go by Dr. Birx) a 99.7 percent survivability rate for EVERYONE!

Those pushing the fear agenda should go lie down in a corner somewhere.

I'm really not trying to fearmonger here. I'm just being real. If you want to put your individual rights above getting rid of this thing for good that's your prerogative; you're right, you have the right to be a douchebag and ruin life for everyone else.
At this particular point in time you have ZERO evidence for even making this statement.

Hence, you are not being REAL, you are being FALSE.
Just understand that that's what you're doing by standing up to the rights that Tucker Carlson tells you you should be standing up for.
Just understand I do not do what others tell me to do, unless they are in a position of authority over me (at this point in my life that would be my father and my current supervisor, and even in those cases, I would weigh any potential consequences in a determination as to whether or not I would comply with the directions given, as all thinking people should do). So, you are still not REAL and remain firmly FALSE.
Enjoy that empty exercise of "freedom".
I will enjoy every moment of my life, not bound by your ilk.
But I will be blaming you personally for everything bad we have to deal with from this thing from here on out, including any further restrictions on our freedom. If we have another lockdown it's your fault, Lackey. If a variant comes about that is resistant to the vaccine it's your fault, Lackey. Because Tucker Carlson told you to stand up for your rights, you puppet.

At this point I'm not going for fear. I'm more going for shame and possibly ostracization.
LOL!!! Good luck with that.

Both actions you describe are "children of fear."

You entire post is simply weak and silly. Not surprising in the least.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 26, 2021, 03:28:08 PM
^ Claiming that a single disease wiped out over .3 percent of the world's population last year.

AMAZING!
Is that a response to me? How the hell did you get that from my post?
You really have to stop straw manning people.
Not a straw man.

Coronavirus has not killed .3 percent of the world's population.

The disease is a nothing burger.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 26, 2021, 03:48:20 PM
Look it up yourself. I am not going to do work for you.

There are 7 billion people in the world.

Even if you take the inflated death toll numbers of this disease (and that is a fact the death toll was overreported and misattributed), this disease is a NOTHING BURGER and the only reason for its hype is to serve the BIG LIE, successfully promulgated and promoted by people like you.

There's no point in debating if you don't understand statistics, the basis for why this virus was so dangerous, hospitalization rates, or that 99.99999% of species "great and small" can't get this disease so the survival rate for them is 100%
There is also no point in debating if you do not have a point at all, but that has never stopped your attempts to do so in the past and I'll doubt you'll stop any time soon.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 26, 2021, 03:54:48 PM
Coronavirus has not killed .3 percent of the world's population.
I never claimed it has. What are you going on about?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on July 26, 2021, 04:29:05 PM
The most absolutely morally reprehensible thing ever foisted upon this forum is the fear mongering pushed by the usual crowd here. A disease that has a survivability rate of 99.7 percent for ALL creatures, great and small.

Think about it. A vaccine for a disease that has (at best, as the numbers were acknowledged to be inflated from the get go by Dr. Birx) a 99.7 percent survivability rate for EVERYONE!

Those pushing the fear agenda should go lie down in a corner somewhere.

I'm really not trying to fearmonger here. I'm just being real. If you want to put your individual rights above getting rid of this thing for good that's your prerogative; you're right, you have the right to be a douchebag and ruin life for everyone else.
At this particular point in time you have ZERO evidence for even making this statement.

Hence, you are not being REAL, you are being FALSE.
Just understand that that's what you're doing by standing up to the rights that Tucker Carlson tells you you should be standing up for.
Just understand I do not do what others tell me to do, unless they are in a position of authority over me (at this point in my life that would be my father and my current supervisor, and even in those cases, I would weigh any potential consequences in a determination as to whether or not I would comply with the directions given, as all thinking people should do). So, you are still not REAL and remain firmly FALSE.
Enjoy that empty exercise of "freedom".
I will enjoy every moment of my life, not bound by your ilk.
But I will be blaming you personally for everything bad we have to deal with from this thing from here on out, including any further restrictions on our freedom. If we have another lockdown it's your fault, Lackey. If a variant comes about that is resistant to the vaccine it's your fault, Lackey. Because Tucker Carlson told you to stand up for your rights, you puppet.

At this point I'm not going for fear. I'm more going for shame and possibly ostracization.
LOL!!! Good luck with that.

Good luck with what? Blaming you and everyone else who refuses to get vaccinated on the grounds that you shouldn't have to for all the problems we have from here on out? Um, ok. Not sure where you think the challenge is. Whether you want to couch it as a rights issue or not doesn't change things. You are the reason we are seeing a surge right now. If a variant comes about that is resistant to the vaccine, it's because you refused to get vaccinated ( the fact that you choose to remain ignorant rather than actually look into the science behind it really doesn't remove any blame). If we have another oppressive lockdown, it's because you chose to exercise your right not to benefit the greater good by getting vaccinated.

Not sure where you think "luck" comes into it. I can blame you with no effort at all!

Also, you are a puppet. But don't worry, most puppets don't realize they're being controlled in the service of someone else's agenda. It's what makes you folks so useful.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on July 26, 2021, 04:39:19 PM
Look it up yourself. I am not going to do work for you.

There are 7 billion people in the world.

Even if you take the inflated death toll numbers of this disease (and that is a fact the death toll was overreported and misattributed), this disease is a NOTHING BURGER and the only reason for its hype is to serve the BIG LIE, successfully promulgated and promoted by people like you.

There's no point in debating if you don't understand statistics, the basis for why this virus was so dangerous, hospitalization rates, or that 99.99999% of species "great and small" can't get this disease so the survival rate for them is 100%
There is also no point in debating if you do not have a point at all, but that has never stopped your attempts to do so in the past and I'll doubt you'll stop any time soon.

My point was that you lack the basic understanding needed to present your case.
I'll add 'seeing the point' to your defficencies. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 26, 2021, 05:41:03 PM
Good luck with what?
Trying to separate fear from its children of shame and ostracization.
Blaming you and everyone else who refuses to get vaccinated on the grounds that you shouldn't have to for all the problems we have from here on out? Um, ok.
With no evidence. Which would be just as whimsical as everything else in your life.
Not sure where you think the challenge is. Whether you want to couch it as a rights issue or not doesn't change things. You are the reason we are seeing a surge right now.
Wrong.
If a variant comes about that is resistant to the vaccine, it's because you refused to get vaccinated ( the fact that you choose to remain ignorant rather than actually look into the science behind it really doesn't remove any blame). If we have another oppressive lockdown, it's because you chose to exercise your right not to benefit the greater good by getting vaccinated.
Wrong.
Not sure where you think "luck" comes into it. I can blame you with no effort at all!
Sure you can. As if I care.
Also, you are a puppet. But don't worry, most puppets don't realize they're being controlled in the service of someone else's agenda. It's what makes you folks so useful.
Promoting MSM fear mongering makes you the biggest puppet in the conversation.

Like I wrote in the other thread, people like you are directly responsible for the deaths of my brother-in-law and sister. Promoting policy actions such as a lockdown or even remotely thinking it could have possibly been justified.

The deaths are on your hands, not mine. Mine have faces.

I won't forget.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on July 26, 2021, 06:12:15 PM
Promoting MSM fear mongering makes you the biggest puppet in the conversation.

I'm doing nothing of the sort. The MSM is promoting the consensus of professionals around the globe, as am I. They are doing it in the interest of the greater good, as am I. You are basing your position on conspiracies and actual fearmongering by people with their own agendas that run counter to the greater good. HUGE difference.

If I'm a puppet of anything, it's of the common sense approach that in the midst of a health crisis you follow the guidelines of the professionals, not of Breitbart and Tucker Carlson. And I'm fine with that.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Action80 on July 26, 2021, 06:57:39 PM
^Imagine living in a world where an appeal to numbers makes you right and a greater good could possibly exist.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on July 26, 2021, 07:28:29 PM
^Imagine living in a world where an appeal to numbers makes you right and a greater good could possibly exist.

Are you against facts, and are you promoting selfishness?  Because thats what this statement looks like to me.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Roundy on July 26, 2021, 07:40:20 PM
^Imagine living in a world where an appeal to numbers makes you right and a greater good could possibly exist.

Are you against facts, and are you promoting selfishness?  Because thats what this statement looks like to me.

He was a Trump supporter. This tracks.

He's also admitted to being incredibly greedy and selfish in the past (see my sig). So yeah, this is what we're dealing with. This is why we're seeing surging numbers now. Selfish people like Lackey who say fuck the greater good, it's every man for himself. That's what makes it so easy to blame him, his attitude is (at this point) expressly one of extreme selfishness.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Lord Dave on July 26, 2021, 08:02:46 PM
^Imagine living in a world where an appeal to numbers makes you right and a greater good could possibly exist.

Are you against facts, and are you promoting selfishness?  Because thats what this statement looks like to me.

He was a Trump supporter. This tracks.

He's also admitted to being incredibly greedy and selfish in the past (see my sig). So yeah, this is what we're dealing with. This is why we're seeing surging numbers now. Selfish people like Lackey who say fuck the greater good, it's every man for himself. That's what makes it so easy to blame him, his attitude is (at this point) expressly one of extreme selfishness.

He needs Jesus.
Jesus would mask up, despite being immune to disease.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: rooster on July 26, 2021, 08:10:50 PM
The company I work for is requiring everyone be vaccinated before returning to the office (excepting people who can't based on medical or religious reasons). I just had to upload a pic of my vaccination card even though I've always been a full remote employee.

Makes me wonder how many other companies are doing the same.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 26, 2021, 08:22:54 PM
Religious reasons? What might they be then?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Rama Set on July 26, 2021, 08:37:02 PM
Religious reasons? What might they be then?

Christian Scientists famously reject all medical intervention.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on July 26, 2021, 09:41:24 PM
@Wuhan80

So if this is all fake and fear-mongering, how will you ever know when a real pandemic occurs?

There are no media outlets you trust, you have no doctors you trust and even your homeboy Trump admits that he lied about the pandemic.

You do understand that pandemics occur in nature? When the real one hits, how will you know and will you give the rest of us ignorant sheeple a heads up?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 27, 2021, 06:12:12 AM
The vaccines are Highly Effective™

(https://i.ibb.co/hmwq7Sz/2wZaXYx3.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 27, 2021, 06:57:48 AM
I don't understand how Vaccines Work™

Indeed. I'll add that to the long list...
The vaccine doesn't stop you catching Covid, it stops you developing symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisation - in most cases, not all before you start picking more cherries.
Is this really so difficult to comprehend?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 27, 2021, 07:18:11 AM
I don't understand how Vaccines Work™

Indeed. I'll add that to the long list...
The vaccine doesn't stop you catching Covid, it stops you developing symptoms serious enough to require hospitalisation - in most cases, not all before you start picking more cherries.
Is this really so difficult to comprehend?

Wrong. They do claim it stops you from catching Covid.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/fully-vaccinated-people.html

Quote
A growing body of evidence indicates that people fully vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine (Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna) are less likely to have asymptomatic infection or to transmit SARS-CoV-2 to others.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/fully-vaccinated-people.html

Quote
The study demonstrates that these two mRNA vaccines can reduce the risk of all SARS-CoV-2 infections, not just symptomatic infections.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 27, 2021, 07:21:30 AM
The study demonstrates that these two mRNA vaccines can reduce the risk of all SARS-CoV-2 infections, not just symptomatic infections.
Hope that helps.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 27, 2021, 07:22:22 AM
The study demonstrates that these two mRNA vaccines can reduce the risk of all SARS-CoV-2 infections, not just symptomatic infections.
Hope that helps.

So you're wrong then. You said that it does not reduce infection or transmission.

The U.S. Department of Health & Human Services says that when most people are vaccinated the disease can't spread:

https://www.hhs.gov/immunization/basics/work/index.html

(https://i.imgur.com/sMHjaRl.png)

This is literally the opposite of what you say vaccines do.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 27, 2021, 07:27:37 AM
So you're wrong then. You said that it does not reduce infection or transmission.
No I didn't.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 27, 2021, 07:30:01 AM
Incorrect. You claimed that the vaccine doesn't stop you from catching Covid right here:

The vaccine doesn't stop you catching Covid
Title: Re: Coronavirus Vaccine and You
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 27, 2021, 07:35:56 AM
Holy shit! Now you're dishonestly cherry picking from my post. What does the rest say?