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Offline rooster

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Re: Transgenderism
« Reply #80 on: May 25, 2014, 03:41:41 PM »
Curl his hair.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Transgenderism
« Reply #81 on: May 25, 2014, 09:20:48 PM »
Such as?
You'd like to know, wouldn't you? :-*
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Re: Transgenderism
« Reply #82 on: May 25, 2014, 10:26:19 PM »
Such as?
You'd like to know, wouldn't you? :-*

Umm kind of. Just because I want to know what things are percieved as feminine.  :-*

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Transgenderism
« Reply #83 on: May 25, 2014, 10:28:23 PM »
Umm kind of. Just because I want to know what things are percieved as feminine.  :-*
Don't worry, you'll find out when you're older. Suffice to say that I have occasionally been "misgendered", albeit admittedly too rarely for it to mean anything.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Re: Transgenderism
« Reply #84 on: May 25, 2014, 10:31:28 PM »
Umm kind of. Just because I want to know what things are percieved as feminine.  :-*
Don't worry, you'll find out when you're older. Suffice to say that I have occasionally been "misgendered", albeit admittedly too rarely for it to mean anything.

I don't know what this means.

Re: Transgenderism
« Reply #85 on: May 25, 2014, 10:36:37 PM »
Sitting down while having a wee?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Transgenderism
« Reply #86 on: May 25, 2014, 10:38:30 PM »
Sitting down while having a wee?
That's just convenience, isn't it?
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Ghost of V

Re: Transgenderism
« Reply #87 on: May 26, 2014, 12:55:14 AM »
Umm kind of. Just because I want to know what things are percieved as feminine.  :-*
Don't worry, you'll find out when you're older. Suffice to say that I have occasionally been "misgendered", albeit admittedly too rarely for it to mean anything.

I'm in the same boat. I have never fully identified with the male gender, in fact I posed as a female online for a long time (on the old site) and no one knew any better. I think I played the role well too.

The weird ones to me are the ones that seem to fully personify one gender. It seems like gender roles really fuck with people's heads. That's societies fault, and as we advance further as a civilization I think those stereotyped roles will crumble. Slowly but surely.

Re: Transgenderism
« Reply #88 on: May 26, 2014, 02:32:12 PM »
I posed as a female online for a long time (on the old site)

Pretending to be a smokin hot babe isn't transgenderism any more than me pretending to be a 7th level elven mage is transspecism.

and no one knew any better cared.

Fixed.

Rama Set

Re: Transgenderism
« Reply #89 on: May 26, 2014, 02:38:04 PM »
I posed as a female online for a long time (on the old site)

Pretending to be a smokin hot babe isn't transgenderism any more than me pretending to be a 7th level elven mage is transspecism.

and no one knew any better cared.

Fixed.

I think Vauxhall is saying that posing as a female was comfortable because of the degree to which he identifies with the gender.

Saddam Hussein

Re: Transgenderism
« Reply #90 on: May 26, 2014, 09:00:02 PM »
I'm pretty sure that nobody ever seriously thought that Vauxy was female.

Ghost of V

Re: Transgenderism
« Reply #91 on: May 26, 2014, 09:42:29 PM »
I posed as a female online for a long time (on the old site)

Pretending to be a smokin hot babe isn't transgenderism any more than me pretending to be a 7th level elven mage is transspecism.

and no one knew any better cared.

Fixed.

I think Vauxhall is saying that posing as a female was comfortable because of the degree to which he identifies with the gender.

Exactly.


And Saddam, shut up. I know at least one person was fooled.

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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: Transgenderism
« Reply #92 on: May 27, 2014, 01:05:28 PM »
it seems to me that the only serious argument that anti-trans* people can bring to the table is opposition to surgery and refusing to call people what they'd like to be called. The first is none of your business, and the second is just rude.

As for calling trans* people 'disgusting,' a comment from Natalie Reed is probably worth thinking about

Quote from: http://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliereed/2012/08/09/disgusting/
Your feelings of disgust and contempt are fleeting. As soon as me, or some other trans person, is out of your sight, we vanish from your world. The whole existence of transsexuality might as well not exist for you except when you’re directly confronted with it. You’re afforded the luxury of living as though there isn’t such a thing, that the world is neatly divided into men and women, who have certain kinds of respective bodies, and inhabit certain kinds of roles. Your enjoyment of that luxury probably contributed to how much I disturbed you. But me? I never, ever get to ignore this. This is the gender and body I live with every single moment of every single day. And every time I leave my home, I have to try to remember, and emotionally prepare for, the fact that you, and your countless interchangeable proxies, are outside.
 
And while that disgust you felt suddenly being confronted with a brief, fleeting reminder that bodies such as mine happen to exist is fleeting, the feelings of worthlessness, shame, self-hatred, fear and insecurity inflicted on me by you and the culture that allows, supports and trains you, that lingers. That’s something I have to live with all the time. The reminders aren’t brief or fleeting, and they’re anything but rare.

Re: Transgenderism
« Reply #93 on: May 27, 2014, 01:15:45 PM »
Is it always appropriate to call people what they'd like to be called? What if somebody preferred to be addressed by some kind of title that implies social dominance or exclusive privilege?

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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: Transgenderism
« Reply #94 on: May 27, 2014, 01:30:59 PM »
Apples and oranges. If people are asking to be called 'your royal highness' that's very different to 'sir' or 'madam' or 'him' and 'her.'

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Transgenderism
« Reply #95 on: May 27, 2014, 01:46:12 PM »
Apples and oranges. If people are asking to be called 'your royal highness' that's very different to 'sir' or 'madam' or 'him' and 'her.'
Major devil's advocate warning, but: What if I wanted to be referred to as something that's not human? Like a wolf, or some disembodied abstract concept?

You say (or at least imply) that titles of dominance wouldn't be ok, so it seems to me like there's a line to be drawn. Where would you draw the line?
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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: Transgenderism
« Reply #96 on: May 27, 2014, 04:25:51 PM »
We are referring to humans on a continuum of an abstract concept called 'gender.' What it means to be a 'woman' or a 'man' or a 'eunuch' have changed radically over history - there have been female kings and male queens, 'two spirit' people who didn't fit into their society's division of male and female, stories of women as men to go to war.

The division between a man as an object, an animal, or an abstract concept are far deeper and more meaningful Also, vanishingly few people actually do ask to be referred to in inhuman terms, unlike trans* people who represent a small but significant minority.

But let's take one subgroup who might be asked to be referred to as inhumans - furries. If we took a furry seriously in their choice of animalit would put responsibilities on us to treat them as such (a wolf, for instance, would be captured and either kept in captivity or released into protected areas - or shot.) as treating them as their animal personalities would mean excemption from human justice (if we treated a wolf furry as a wolf and they killed, would we put them down like we would to physiological wolves?) Treating a furry seriously places unnecessary duties and responibilities on society which doesn't apply to treating a trans* woman as a female.

The only time when demands are placed on society is segregated areas for toilets/ changing areas/ etc, and here it's worth noting that trans* people are frequently abused, beaten or even killed for not conforming to other people's ideas of their gender and for most trans* people, a visit to a public bathroom or changing room can be a truly nerve-wracking experience. On the basis of doing the least harm, perhaps society can make this small accomodation?

The only other time is, I suppose, in sport. Frankly, I have so little interest in sport that I'm not going to bother making the argument since it hasn't come up in about 5 pages of discussion. As far as I'm concerned it's the only serious area in society where there might be grounds for discrimination.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Transgenderism
« Reply #97 on: May 27, 2014, 06:00:41 PM »
We are referring to humans on a continuum of an abstract concept called 'gender.' What it means to be a 'woman' or a 'man' or a 'eunuch' have changed radically over history - there have been female kings and male queens, 'two spirit' people who didn't fit into their society's division of male and female, stories of women as men to go to war.
Historically, perhaps, but nowadays it's pretty clear cut. Most people talk about sex, not gender.

But let's take one subgroup who might be asked to be referred to as inhumans - furries. If we took a furry seriously in their choice of animalit would put responsibilities on us to treat them as such (a wolf, for instance, would be captured and either kept in captivity or released into protected areas - or shot.) as treating them as their animal personalities would mean excemption from human justice (if we treated a wolf furry as a wolf and they killed, would we put them down like we would to physiological wolves?) Treating a furry seriously places unnecessary duties and responibilities on society which doesn't apply to treating a trans* woman as a female.
I don't see why. Society doesn't magically change their expectations of you just because you go trans (except, of course, for the presence of transphobes), why would it magically change when you declare yourself to be an ironing board? As you said, it's just about names and titles.
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Offline beardo

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Re: Transgenderism
« Reply #98 on: May 27, 2014, 06:31:25 PM »
Guys. My sex is Batman, and you have no right to tell me I'm not a Batman.
The Mastery.

Re: Transgenderism
« Reply #99 on: May 27, 2014, 06:37:15 PM »
Are you planning on using the Bat-toilet?