The Flat Earth Society
The Flat Earth Society => Suggestions & Concerns => Topic started by: xasop on June 06, 2015, 03:30:38 PM
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A technique that was trialled fairly successfully on the other site is the idea of "Purgatory". That is, a special group for chronic rule-breakers where bans have proven to be ineffective, which allows them to post only in CN and AR, but still browse the other fora. I've just created such a group, and we intend to begin using it effective immediately to deal with repeat offenders.
One thing I'm undecided on is whether members in Purgatory should be able to post in S&C. On the one hand, this enables them to continue to have a voice in how the forum is run. On the other, it also allows them to cause trouble in at least one upper forum. Thoughts?
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A technique that was trialled fairly successfully on the other site is the idea of "Purgatory". That is, a special group for chronic rule-breakers where bans have proven to be ineffective, which allows them to post only in CN and AR, but still browse the other fora. I've just created such a group, and we intend to begin using it effective immediately to deal with repeat offenders.
Excellent. About time, too!
One thing I'm undecided on is whether members in Purgatory should be able to post in S&C. On the one hand, this enables them to continue to have a voice in how the forum is run. On the other, it also allows them to cause trouble in at least one upper forum. Thoughts?
¿Por qué no los dos? You can create two groups and add people to them as appropriate. If they can remain civil in S&C, there's no problem here. If they can't, welp. I think being allowed to post in S&C should be the default state, and further restrictions should only be imposed if justified.
In the long term, I would recommend that the use of this group be explicitly mentioned in the rules. Currently, most rules are quite clear about how bans and warnings would be handed up. I don't think we need to go as far as to strictly codify the Purgatory (although that is also an option that could be considered), but I do think it's important that the existence of this solution is at least mentioned.
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¿Por qué no los dos? You can create two groups and add people to them as appropriate. If they can remain civil in S&C, there's no problem here. If they can't, welp. I think being allowed to post in S&C should be the default state, and further restrictions should only be imposed if justified.
Fair point. For the time being, I've added S&C to the Purgatory postable fora. If we actually need to restrict it further, we can add another group for that later.
In the long term, I would recommend that the use of this group be explicitly mentioned in the rules. Currently, most rules are quite clear about how bans and warnings would be handed up. I don't think we need to go as far as to strictly codify the Purgatory (although that is also an option that could be considered), but I do think it's important that the existence of this solution is at least mentioned.
I agree.
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Just making sure I can reply here while in Purgatory.
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A technique that was trialled fairly successfully on the other site is the idea of "Purgatory". That is, a special group for chronic rule-breakers where bans have proven to be ineffective, which allows them to post only in CN and AR, but still browse the other fora. I've just created such a group, and we intend to begin using it effective immediately to deal with repeat offenders.
One thing I'm undecided on is whether members in Purgatory should be able to post in S&C. On the one hand, this enables them to continue to have a voice in how the forum is run. On the other, it also allows them to cause trouble in at least one upper forum. Thoughts?
This hole purgatory thing sownds like a HORIBEL idea!!!!!!! You are trampeling on our 3rd amendmint rites to free speche!!! Such a tyranicel step that wuld be! Parsifal must be a republicen thats why he hates free speche and he is almost as bad as bush! This is why FES is going to heck in a handbaskit!!!!!!!
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A technique that was trialled fairly successfully on the other site is the idea of "Purgatory".
I believe that was my idea to deal with the likes of Excelsior John. May I ask who you have put into purgatory this time around?
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Sounds like an interesting thought. Given that I have not been banned in awhile (I seem to have learned how to control my temper, and to know the rule differences between here and the other site), it does sound like a halfway decent idea. Would Purgatory be permanent?
BTW, that would be the First Amendment, EJ. I think a rereading of the Constitution is in order for you. And last I checked, Parsifal was Australian, which would make it hard for him to be Republican, I would think. And "Freedom of Speech" does not actually apply to privately held fora such as this. As distasteful as you (or even I, occasionally) may find it to be, when one chooses to post on privately owned fora, one has rules to follow. If one doesn't like the rules, one can pack one's s**t, and go find privately owned fora where one DOES like the rules. But as long as one keeps coming back for more, one subjects oneself to the rules of the privately held fora. In three words, 's**t happens, Dude.".
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May I ask who you have put into purgatory this time around?
http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?action=mlist;sa=search;search=Purgatory;fields=group
Sounds like an interesting thought. Given that I have not been banned in awhile (I seem to have learned how to control my temper, and to know the rule differences between here and the other site), it does sound like a halfway decent idea. Would Purgatory be permanent?
No; if they demonstrate that they can post without being a nuisance in the lower fora, they're welcome to appeal their Purgatory status at any time. We're not out to punish people, just to ensure they don't disrupt productive discussions.
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Good Lord, what did EJ do to end up in Purgatory already? He just got back! Ok, none of my business. I don't know, it seems like a halfway decent idea, though. I'm still navigating the rules here myself, though. I think that is the only big problem between here and the other site. They look alike. One assumes, quite naturally, that they are run alike. In the event of a merger, how would it be run? I think that is a natural question for many of us.
I wish there was some way to spell out the rules of this site, of that site, and of the distinct differences between them, though. That would make it a bit more clear for those of us who navigate both.
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Wow, I just went to CN. He has been busy. Now I think I understand why he has been placed in Purgatory, although... well, I guess it is still not of my business. Rejected by the Ivy Leagues. Well...
Anyway, back to the subject at hand. I was ready to greet him with a hearty handshake. Since I spend very little time in CN, I guess that won't really be possible. Maybe I'll have to make my own thread there just for that purpose.
Anyway, Purgatory sounds like an interesting idea. I just hope I don't wind up there. ;D ;D
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EJ was put in Purgatory knowing full well the potential consequences of his actions, and with a history of ineffective bans with no sign of improvement. I waited until after he had seen and replied to this thread to give the move my support so it wouldn't come out of nowhere from his perspective, and he continued to repost the same things we'd already moved to CN in the upper fora after that point.
It's not something we plan to dish out lightly. I sincerely hope we never have to put anyone else in Purgatory again, but it's there as a last resort for people who can't (or don't want to) be rehabilitated.
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EJ was put in Purgatory knowing full well the potential consequences of his actions, and with a history of ineffective bans with no sign of improvement. I waited until after he had seen and replied to this thread to give the move my support so it wouldn't come out of nowhere from his perspective, and he continued to repost the same things we'd already moved to CN in the upper fora after that point.
It's not something we plan to dish out lightly. I sincerely hope we never have to put anyone else in Purgatory again, but it's there as a last resort for people who can't (or don't want to) be rehabilitated.
Well, its understandable. It would appear that he is unable to learn the rules here. And I don't deny, the differences between both sites can be hard to grasp. But he couldn't figure out the rules there either, I don't think. Well, life goes on.
Like I said, with my tendency to go off, I hope I don't end up in Purgatory myself. ;D ;D That being said, I went to give him greetings, and he proceeded to be quite offensive. Not a very cheery fellow. Oh, well.
So, how are things Down Under?
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What?!! I dont understand this why was I sent to Purgitorey? And plese just dont send my post down to CN just here me owt plese: as far as im concerned I have not brokin any rules. I do vent my anger owt in the lower fora but thats why there the lower fora for crying owt lowd! Plese tell me what I need to do to get owt of here. You must amit that I act vary aproprietley in the uper fora. Wunce agen I have not brokin any rules far as im concerned and I am a palite and civil forum member. Just tell me what I need to do!
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EJ was put in Purgatory knowing full well the potential consequences of his actions, and with a history of ineffective bans with no sign of improvement. I waited until after he had seen and replied to this thread to give the move my support so it wouldn't come out of nowhere from his perspective, and he continued to repost the same things we'd already moved to CN in the upper fora after that point.
It's not something we plan to dish out lightly. I sincerely hope we never have to put anyone else in Purgatory again, but it's there as a last resort for people who can't (or don't want to) be rehabilitated.
What warning did you give me? And I cuntinud to repost that thred becuz I had a serous concern and you kept on ignoring me. Yes it was an act of rebelein but I did it becuz of your tyriney. It says rite in the constatushin that when power becums tyranicel the citizins have the rite to altar or abalish it. Bam.
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Well, perhaps because the FES is NOT the Government, but a privately held concern, and therefore not subject to the constitution of any country, that might be your first mistake. For someone in college, and taking a politics course, you really need some remedial studies on the subject of what is, and what is not, covered by that document.
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Perhaps it is possible to have a punishment role. They can post, but no one can see their posts, and they are forever talking to themselves thinking that they are being ignored.
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Perhaps it is possible to have a punishment role. They can post, but no one can see their posts, and they are forever talking to themselves thinking that they are being ignored.
This has been suggested multiple times at this point and Parsifal claimed it wouldn't be hard to implement. "Shadow banning" people seems like a good way to punish repeat offenders, causing them to waste their own time trolling. It would take many posts before someone realized they've been shadow banned. It does wonders for Reddit, it could work here too.
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I think that shadow banning would contravene the society's mantra of free speech. Ensuring someone only speaks in a particular area does at least allow them to have interactions with others and say what they want. If you prevent everyone from seeing someone's posts, you effectively disconnected them from the society. If you are going to do that, you may as well have the balls to ban them properly.
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I have to agree with Th*rk. What's the point of shadow banning when you could just hand them a regular ban? It's better for the offender and the society as a whole that they know they are being punished and what they are being punished for.
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Shadow-banning is definitely chicken-s**t. If you are going to ban someone, do it openly and honestly, or put them in Purgatory. But don't fake them out with a shadow-ban. That's crap.
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Well, perhaps because the FES is NOT the Government, but a privately held concern, and therefore not subject to the constitution of any country, that might be your first mistake. For someone in college, and taking a politics course, you really need some remedial studies on the subject of what is, and what is not, covered by that document.
Prove to me that it says this. And evan if it did FES wuld be amiting there anti-American by praventing are free speche. And are politicks techer teches us that the constatushin is the praduck of evil rascist wite men who wanid to keep pepel of coler in slaverey and frankley I agre. She and my African American studies profeser are probz the onley to things that are keeping me from droping owt (tho im still considering it tho).
Perhaps it is possible to have a punishment role. They can post, but no one can see their posts, and they are forever talking to themselves thinking that they are being ignored.
What kind of sick horibel monster are you?! That is not simpel punishmint that is crool and unusuel torchur! I am sickined that anywon culd evan consider such a thing! Only a republicen wuld think of something like that!
Perhaps it is possible to have a punishment role. They can post, but no one can see their posts, and they are forever talking to themselves thinking that they are being ignored.
This has been suggested multiple times at this point and Parsifal claimed it wouldn't be hard to implement. "Shadow banning" people seems like a good way to punish repeat offenders, causing them to waste their own time trolling. It would take many posts before someone realized they've been shadow banned. It does wonders for Reddit, it could work here too.
No it wuldent!!! This is digusting why wuld you want to play such a sick joke on somewon?!
I think that shadow banning would contravene the society's mantra of free speech. Ensuring someone only speaks in a particular area does at least allow them to have interactions with others and say what they want. If you prevent everyone from seeing someone's posts, you effectively disconnected them from the society. If you are going to do that, you may as well have the balls to ban them properly.
Exacley! Thankyou th*rk you are a TRUE American and FEr!
I have to agree with Th*rk. What's the point of shadow banning when you could just hand them a regular ban? It's better for the offender and the society as a whole that they know they are being punished and what they are being punished for.
Thank you for standing up for America blacko! Such a mezsur wuld be pure evil!
Shadow-banning is definitely chicken-s**t. If you are going to ban someone, do it openly and honestly, or put them in Purgatory. But don't fake them out with a shadow-ban. That's crap.
Wow. Histerey has been made! For wunce I actuley agre with yakoov! Inded such a thing wuld be a abuse on are rites as Americans!!!!!!
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Okay im just gona come owt and say it if no won else will: the reson as to why this is all hapining to me is obvousley becuz I am a person of coler. And I find it vary ofensive and disgusting that I am undergoing such discrimation and rascism. Being of coler isent a crime and i think its vary unforchinit that whats going on here isent a hate crime. And wunce agen aluding to the Constatushin did not George Washintin rite in there that all men and women are CREATID (unlike what the stupit monkee science of EVILution wants you to beleive) equel? Yeh exacley.
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I think that shadow banning would contravene the society's mantra of free speech. Ensuring someone only speaks in a particular area does at least allow them to have interactions with others and say what they want. If you prevent everyone from seeing someone's posts, you effectively disconnected them from the society. If you are going to do that, you may as well have the balls to ban them properly.
Exacley! Thankyou th*rk you are a TRUE American and FEr!
I'm English! >o<
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Aside from the obvious fact that being 1/32nd black does not make you a person of colour except in your own head, let us assume you WERE a person of colour. I haven't seen anyone insult you for being such. What evidence do you have to indicate or prove that your placement in Purgatory is due to colour and not to your constant insults toward anyone who disagrees with you? So far, all you have done since your return is indicate that anyone who challenges your view of the world must be stupid, a racist, etc. As I see it, you have made people dislike you by your own rudeness and disrespect toward others. If you learn, as I did, to be courteous, you may find that it is returned by others, including the Censors.
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EJ, please tone it down in S&C. The reason you can still post here is that we'd like to keep S&C open to all forum users, even those in Purgatory, as it's important that people can have their say regarding the way the forum is run. However, if you're just going to throw around insults and unfounded accusations without contributing anything, that will change.
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I think that shadow banning would contravene the society's mantra of free speech. Ensuring someone only speaks in a particular area does at least allow them to have interactions with others and say what they want. If you prevent everyone from seeing someone's posts, you effectively disconnected them from the society. If you are going to do that, you may as well have the balls to ban them properly.
Exacley! Thankyou th*rk you are a TRUE American and FEr!
I'm English! >o<
My apaliges Dr. Th*rk!
Aside from the obvious fact that being 1/32nd black does not make you a person of colour except in your own head, let us assume you WERE a person of colour. I haven't seen anyone insult you for being such. What evidence do you have to indicate or prove that your placement in Purgatory is due to colour and not to your constant insults toward anyone who disagrees with you? So far, all you have done since your return is indicate that anyone who challenges your view of the world must be stupid, a racist, etc. As I see it, you have made people dislike you by your own rudeness and disrespect toward others. If you learn, as I did, to be courteous, you may find that it is returned by others, including the Censors.
First of all how DARE you call me "BLACK"! Do you know how ofensive that is to me as a person of coler! That is a horibel racial slur and I think that you are HILEY insensativ!!! And reley? You havint seen ANYWON that has insultid me in a rascist way?! *cough* yakoov *cough* You just caled me a raciel slur for crying owt lowd!!! And I dont tell pepel there stupit/rascist becuz they disagre with me. I tell them that there stupit becuz there stupit and that there rascist becuz there rascist and frankley your both!
EJ, please tone it down in S&C. The reason you can still post here is that we'd like to keep S&C open to all forum users, even those in Purgatory, as it's important that people can have their say regarding the way the forum is run. However, if you're just going to throw around insults and unfounded accusations without contributing anything, that will change.
Stop playing inicint with me Parsifal we both know you have your predjidices. But plese tell me what I need to do to get back into the uper fora! If you tell me what to do and let me back in ill do it! Plese!!!!!!!!!!
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Stop playing inicint with me Parsifal we both know you have your predjidices. But plese tell me what I need to do to get back into the uper fora! If you tell me what to do and let me back in ill do it! Plese!!!!!!!!!!
You can start by proving that you're capable of holding an adult conversation in CN, because this is your last post here. Bye.
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Even assuming that I wanted to call you "black", I would not be able to. Your skin is almost as light as mine, and that is saying something, given that I am about as light as they make them, at least for a Jew. I would love for you to prove to me that I am racist in any way.
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Just to add to the pile of shadowban-related comments: shadowbanning is a terrible idea. We currently have a public list of all people banned and all people in the Purgatory (although that one could be made slightly more accessible). We've been striving for transparency all this time, and an introduction of a "secret" disciplinary measure sounds extremely counter-productive.
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Just permaban him already. We seem to be tying ourselves in knots trying to deal with a situation which doesn't need extra layers of security masks, shadowbans, etc.
It just needs an honest admission that we have a serially annoying poster who makes no attempt to reform. All this high-minded talk about freedom of expression is just a distraction from that main issue.
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It just needs an honest admission that we have a serially annoying poster who makes no attempt to reform. All this high-minded talk about freedom of expression is just a distraction from that main issue.
Good idea. While we're at it, let's ban more people based on an honest admission that the mods/admins find them annoying. That's gonna go well.
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is there anybody on the forum who doesn't find EJ annoying?
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GHOST, what a stupid question. I think most people here find me annoying, and I would hazard a guess that there are more people here who find EJ annoying than find me annoying. So, to answer your question, i think the answer must be no, there is not anyone here who does not find EJ annoying.
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Precisely.
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Sure, let's ban Thork while we're at it. Nobody's gonna miss him, right?
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Thork, while being at least as obnoxious as I am, does contribute interesting commentary. He @ least shows signs of having a brain. IMHO, this is NOT the case with EJ on either count.
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Well, he does keep repeatedly trolling you. I think that's indicative of something.
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The advantage of Purgatory over a permaban is that it does give the poster time to rehabilitate, in cases where bans only serve to aggravate them. If you don't want to read EJ's posts, just don't go to CN or AR, and it will be as if he were banned.
Also, I'd like to add my voice to the "no shadow bans" crowd. I think what we have now is a much better solution.
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Parsival, I am inclined to agree. Blanko, I get a certain guilty plasure out of feeding him.
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FWIW, I don't think the issue is that he's annoying. I think the issue is that he's obviously not genuine. It's just some troll spamming our message boards. It's ironic that this is happening in IRC literally as I type this, but I don't think it's any different than the people who come to IRC to spam the chat with things like "the earth is square" a jillion times. We ban them, and it's fine to ban/purgatory EJ.
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I think IRC is a completely separate case. I banned the guy(s) on IRC with no mandate from anyone (other than Parsifal), and no set of rules at all. In that sense, IRC is a much less "official" channel. Also, the reason he/they got banned was because they started spamming "s".
The forum, as it stands (n.b. I'm not necessarily saying it should stay that way), is a very different matter. When we set it up, we were trying to create a strong alternative for the culture of the other forum. At the time, it involved arbitrary bans for reasons which weren't entirely clear to everyone (like the use of the word "nigger", sometimes, with no apparent consistency). I think cases like EJ's are rare enough for the addition of the Purgatory to be enough.
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Whoops; my original post was unclear at the end. In my head I was considering ban and purgatory synonymously. I think purgatory is a totally reasonable option.
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I'm not sure who gave everyone the impression that Purgatory was successful on the other site. I, like many others, was a strong advocate of it at first but it fell out of favor rather quickly and it's now the policy to never place anyone in purgatory. We found that people simply created alts and kept right on going. It was, at most, a mildly inconvenient speed bump.
However, as it's addressing a different issue here and since the alt rule is much more lax, I can see it succeeding. If EJ wanted to make an alt, he would have to forgo the character he's playing. He can't play the same character on a separate account, it will just get banned or sent to purgatory rather quickly.
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I'm not sure who gave everyone the impression that Purgatory was successful on the other site.
I recall there being at least one successful rehabilitation of an angry noob, who became a contributive regular after their tenure in Purgatory. I don't remember which user that was, though.
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It would be painfully difficult for EJ to pretend to be anyone other than himself. His orthography alone would give him away in a moment, just as I would have a damned hard time pretending to be someone else, simply because my diction and mannerisms would become apparent within an hour.
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It would be painfully difficult for EJ to pretend to be anyone other than himself. His orthography alone would give him away in a moment, just as I would have a damned hard time pretending to be someone else, simply because my diction and mannerisms would become apparent within an hour.
Well that sounds to me like you're projecting your own inadequacies onto others. Just because one person can't convincingly play a character does not mean another could. In this case, EJ is such a well defined character that he needs this account to keep playing it. A Purgatory sentence should work marvelously.
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Oh, I agree. I think he should get a great deal out of Purgatory. In fact, it seems to be working quite well for him, if you down there and observe. I just don't think that he is playing a role. I think that EJ is in fact a serious person. I mean, really. I have seen a lot in my 41 years of life, and I think we are dealing with a truly mentally disordered individual. I don't think he's a troll at all. I think EJ is the Real McCoy. It would be damned hard to make up orthography THAT bad.
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Reforming a character troll? Really, guys?
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Reforming a character troll? Really, guys?
Even if he is most likely a character troll, I don't think that's reason to treat him differently from anyone else. There have been people on FES in the past who everyone thought was a character troll, but turned out not to be (remember Eric Bloedow, anyone?). I really don't want to get into using a moderator's assessment of a person's motives as reason for a ban.
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Hm. I'm inclined to agree. For a time when I was on a government issued dumbphone, people thought I was EJ, and EJ was me. The fact that he lives on the Left Coast and I live in Iowa, and he is on a computer, and I was on my Basic Phone, using Assurance Wireless as my phone company, and said so, and was backed up by administrators, finally made people admit that he was not me, and I even had a few apologies directed my way.
I realise that I have made an arse of myself in here on occasion. I have been banned often, sometimes justifiably, and sometimes not (in my opinion). I realise also that people in many cases may not like me much. But I think that most people at this point know I am a genuine human being.
But even if they don't, whether a person is a troll or not shouldn't indicate how they are banned or not banned, purgatoried or not purgatoried. Every person registered should be treated according to merit. Straight up.
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Reforming a character troll? Really, guys?
Nobody's saying the aim is to reform him. It's just a permaban with an exit strategy. If he wants to post like a normal guy, he can show us that and get unbanned. If he doesn't, he can stay in CN, effectively banned from any board that matters. I genuinely don't understand what the controversy is - could one of the "omg just ban him already" voices explain it?
You're not taking CN seriously, are you?
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SEX WARRIOR, again, I would accept that as axiomatic. Well said.
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Reforming a character troll? Really, guys?
Nobody's saying the aim is to reform him. It's just a permaban with an exit strategy. If he wants to post like a normal guy, he can show us that and get unbanned. If he doesn't, he can stay in CN, effectively banned from any board that matters. I genuinely don't understand what the controversy is - could one of the "omg just ban him already" voices explain it?
You're not taking CN seriously, are you?
I don't feel particularly strongly on the issue, I just found it humorous that the word 'reform' was used in regards to EJ. We have some of the best forum admins I've ever seen, and I feel that a lazy character troll is taking advantage of that. You're right, it is just CN, but even shit posting has standards.