The Flat Earth Society
Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: Fortuna on May 21, 2014, 10:35:38 PM
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It's dangerous, deceptive, and regressive. It shows that it's fine to circumvent facts because they are uncomfortable, or don't line up with how an individual feels. What are your thoughts on this travesty of a social movement?
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That you need to come out to your family and friends. Stat.
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I love it. If wacky shit like this was done away with, /r/tumblrinaction wouldn't exist and my day would be that much more boring without it.
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Removed fappenhosen's post for breaking Rule 7. I don't think it was intended to to purposefully break the rule so no warning will be issued. Please refrain from posting NSFW material, as per the rule.
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I can't help but think it does more bad than good, in most cases. I also think that a lot of the time, transgenders aren't being honest with themselves about their motives.
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I think that using surgery to radically alter your physical appearance and butcher your sexual organs is a poor way to deal with what is at heart a psychological issue. I am actually an extremely liberal guy about most things, but I think that the notion that we should just accept this practice because "this is who these people are" is taking things a bit too far. It is truly disgusting. Whatever happened to just learning to accept ourselves for who we are? Does that not apply if we have difficulty accepting that we are male, or female?
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I think that using surgery to radically alter your physical appearance and butcher your sexual organs is a poor way to deal with what is at heart a psychological issue. I am actually an extremely liberal guy about most things, but I think that the notion that we should just accept this practice because "this is who these people are" is taking things a bit too far. It is truly disgusting. Whatever happened to just learning to accept ourselves for who we are? Does that not apply if we have difficulty accepting that we are male, or female?
What if its a mentally hard wired issue that can't be resolved by therapy or drugs?
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I think that using surgery to radically alter your physical appearance and butcher your sexual organs is a poor way to deal with what is at heart a psychological issue. I am actually an extremely liberal guy about most things, but I think that the notion that we should just accept this practice because "this is who these people are" is taking things a bit too far. It is truly disgusting. Whatever happened to just learning to accept ourselves for who we are? Does that not apply if we have difficulty accepting that we are male, or female?
Because when you're not satisfied with who you are, just force other people to see you differently. If they don't accept your new identity, they're intolerant bigots.
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It's fine when someone wants to change themselves. It is not fine if they demand that I accept their change.
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I think that using surgery to radically alter your physical appearance and butcher your sexual organs is a poor way to deal with what is at heart a psychological issue. I am actually an extremely liberal guy about most things, but I think that the notion that we should just accept this practice because "this is who these people are" is taking things a bit too far.
Why did you use quotation marks? Do you have some reason to doubt the sincerity of people claiming to be transgendered?
It is truly disgusting.
Can you elaborate? This comment strikes me as pure knee-jerk but I would like to know if there is more to it.
Whatever happened to just learning to accept ourselves for who we are? Does that not apply if we have difficulty accepting that we are male, or female?
Let's assume that psychological routes have been exhausted and the difference between gender perception and gender physiology still causes great distress to someone, how would you propose alleviating their suffering?
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It's fine when someone wants to change themselves. It is not fine if they demand that I accept their change.
Has this happened to you or are you speaking hypothetically?
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Has this happened to you or are you speaking hypothetically?
No.
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I think that using surgery to radically alter your physical appearance and butcher your sexual organs is a poor way to deal with what is at heart a psychological issue. I am actually an extremely liberal guy about most things, but I think that the notion that we should just accept this practice because "this is who these people are" is taking things a bit too far. It is truly disgusting. Whatever happened to just learning to accept ourselves for who we are? Does that not apply if we have difficulty accepting that we are male, or female?
How do you feel about cosmetic surgery in general then?
I'm not directing this at you, but I notice that men who will have problems with people changing their sex will be completely okay with women getting breast enhancements which seems selfish. "I hate queers who want to be women especially when they trick me into having sex with them. But I love a person born with a vagina that has big fake titties!"
Cosmetic surgery is mostly a psychology problem as well (unless it's for legit medical issues like reconstructing faces or back problems). I'm just interested in where people draw the line with surgeries.
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I don't see any reason why people shouldn't be able to get sex changes or cosmetic surgery if they want.
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Has this happened to you or are you speaking hypothetically?
No.
Accidental tranny sex. Got it.
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Among transgender friends I have noted a pretty even split between people who want surgery and people who just want hormone treatments. Personally I do not think they are in denial about anything, although many of them didn't quite realise how difficult it would be until they started doing it, and some of them have had second thoughts because of that. Often in the media we only see end results, but transitioning is tough, especially if one is starting it post-puberty as many of my friends did, and one is not guaranteed "desirable" (on a case-by-case basis) results. I cannot fathom why anyone would start even a course of hormones and stick with it if they didn't truly believe they were gendered differently than their biological sex prescribed for them.
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I believe that social pressure can cause transgenderism.
In general, men who embrace traditionally feminine qualities are shunned. The same goes for women embracing traditionally masculine qualities. I don't think there is anything wrong with a flamboyant man or a tough-skinned woman, but there is, to some degree, ostracism of people like this, especially in crucial developmental stages (middle/high school age).
As a result, people with these "unacceptable" traits feel like there is something inherently wrong with them. Some come to the conclusion that their natural gender is wrong, so they change it.
This is just food for thought, really. It obviously doesn't happen like this for every transgender, but I do know somebody personally who I believe fell prey to a situation like this. I obviously can't know what they are thinking. I could be wrong. Who knows.
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Change is good, unless someone moves your cheese.
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Where's Tintagel?
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I can't help but think it does more bad than good, in most cases. I also think that a lot of the time, transgenders aren't being honest with themselves about their motives.
More bad to whom? Society at large is not affected by trans* people's choice whether or ot to express their gender identities.
The harm to trans* people themselves comes in two forms, the first is violence and discrimination from society and the other is the preceived damage caused by various treatments. The first could be addressed if people just accepted a trans* person's choice and simply treat them with the respect they'd expect. Even if you don't see a trans woman as female, the consequences of you deliberately calling her by male pronouns can be seriously upsetting to someone who may be vulnerable whereas the consequences of calling her by her preferred pronouns results in a bit of internal eye-rolling to you.
As for the second, such harm is their own choice. For a lot of trans* people they are deeply uncomfortable with themselves as the 'wrong' gender and seek to correct it. Forcing people to go through that is causing harm.
In conclusion: Treat trans* people with respect and use the gendered terms they prefer because it's no skin of your nose but might be upsetting to them.
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Do they prefer the term transasterisk over transgender?
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Depends, trans* covers a lot of terms sech as transgender, transexual, transvestite, genderqueer, genderfluid, non-binary, genderfuck, genderless, agender, non-gendered, third gender, two-spirit, bigender, all of which have lots of tedious technicalities and differences.
We could spend a thread picking apart the differences between transgenderism and transsexualism, but do we really want to be bothered?
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Most of that sounds hilarious. I could definitely be bothered.
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I see transgenderism as irrelevant, since I view gender itself as an artificial (and unhealthy) social construct. Transgenderism is just the way some people choose to deal with social expectations that make them uncomfortable. I prefer not to impose such expectations on others, and therefore have no problem accepting anyone for whatever gender they choose to identify as.
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I've got nothing against transgenderism.
Each to their own.
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At its core, it's a physical treatment for a mental illness. Ideally, we'd treat their minds and help them accept their biological sex rather than have them go through the lengthy, expensive, and still imperfect surgeries to try and change their bodies. Sadly, that doesn't seem to work in a lot of cases, so I guess physical treatments are the next best thing.
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At its core, it's a physical treatment for a mental illness. Ideally, we'd treat their minds and help them accept their biological sex rather than have them go through the lengthy, expensive, and still imperfect surgeries to try and change their bodies. Sadly, that doesn't seem to work in a lot of cases, so I guess physical treatments are the next best thing.
I think it's a social disorder, not so much a mental one.
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I agree with Saddam mostly. Although, treating a transgender person for their delusion would be the same thing as treating a religious person for his/hers. I don't think either of those scenarios would be acceptable to much of society. For now, I'll continue to refer to trans people by their biological sex. They can call themselves whatever they want, but I don't have to accept it.
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At its core, it's a physical treatment for a mental illness.
False.
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At its core, it's a physical treatment for a mental illness.
False.
Agreed. Transgenderism is a conflict between one's physiology and their gender identity. It has a physical and a mental component.
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I agree with Saddam mostly. Although, treating a transgender person for their delusion would be the same thing as treating a religious person for his/hers. I don't think either of those scenarios would be acceptable to much of society. For now, I'll continue to refer to trans people by their biological sex. They can call themselves whatever they want, but I don't have to accept it.
Mental treatment is far more acceptable to most of society than physical surgery. As shocking as this may seem, your "I ain't holdin' with none of this here pee-cee bullshit" attitude isn't nearly as iconoclastic as you might think. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that it's the "default" reaction of society to transsexuals. The norm rather than the exception.
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sometimes some people who look like one gender think of themselves as a different gender. the end.
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I agree with Saddam mostly. Although, treating a transgender person for their delusion would be the same thing as treating a religious person for his/hers. I don't think either of those scenarios would be acceptable to much of society. For now, I'll continue to refer to trans people by their biological sex. They can call themselves whatever they want, but I don't have to accept it.
Mental treatment is far more acceptable to most of society than physical surgery. As shocking as this may seem, your "I ain't holdin' with none of this here pee-cee bullshit" attitude isn't nearly as iconoclastic as you might think. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that it's the "default" reaction of society to transsexuals. The norm rather than the exception.
I'm against it for logical reasons though, not idealistic ones.
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I agree with Saddam mostly. Although, treating a transgender person for their delusion would be the same thing as treating a religious person for his/hers. I don't think either of those scenarios would be acceptable to much of society. For now, I'll continue to refer to trans people by their biological sex. They can call themselves whatever they want, but I don't have to accept it.
Mental treatment is far more acceptable to most of society than physical surgery. As shocking as this may seem, your "I ain't holdin' with none of this here pee-cee bullshit" attitude isn't nearly as iconoclastic as you might think. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that it's the "default" reaction of society to transsexuals. The norm rather than the exception.
I'm against it for logical reasons though, not idealistic ones.
Then you shouldn't oppose it at all. Logically transgenderism does not affect you at all. There's no logical reason to oppose it. You are offended by it on some level, and therefore its idealistic. Aka a personal problem. That goes for anyone who opposes it.
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I agree with Saddam mostly. Although, treating a transgender person for their delusion would be the same thing as treating a religious person for his/hers. I don't think either of those scenarios would be acceptable to much of society. For now, I'll continue to refer to trans people by their biological sex. They can call themselves whatever they want, but I don't have to accept it.
Mental treatment is far more acceptable to most of society than physical surgery. As shocking as this may seem, your "I ain't holdin' with none of this here pee-cee bullshit" attitude isn't nearly as iconoclastic as you might think. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that it's the "default" reaction of society to transsexuals. The norm rather than the exception.
I'm against it for logical reasons though, not idealistic ones.
Then you shouldn't oppose it at all. Logically transgenderism does not affect you at all. There's no logical reason to oppose it. You are offended by it on some level, and therefore its idealistic. Aka a personal problem. That goes for anyone who opposes it.
Incorrect.
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Removed fappenhosen's post for breaking Rule 7. I don't think it was intended to to purposefully break the rule so no warning will be issued. Please refrain from posting NSFW material, as per the rule.
It was a photo of a man. What do you hate about men? I suppose if it was a woman it would be OK. You feminist pigs make me sick.
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Which part is incorrect?
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I agree with Saddam mostly. Although, treating a transgender person for their delusion would be the same thing as treating a religious person for his/hers.
If transgender people start insisting I wear a skirt then yes. And get offended when I don't. Otherwise no.
I don't mind if you believe Elvis is still alive. just don't demand it gets put on the national curriculum.
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I'm all good with it. Not sure I'd want to, say, date a transgender person, really, but it doesn't affect me a whole lot.
Putin don't like it, I don't like it. - Russia Today followers.
That there lady men don't do that do no good, ye hear? -Rednecks
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Removed fappenhosen's post for breaking Rule 7. I don't think it was intended to to purposefully break the rule so no warning will be issued. Please refrain from posting NSFW material, as per the rule.
It was a photo of a man. What do you hate about men? I suppose if it was a woman it would be OK. You feminist pigs make me sick.
Hilarious and witty. It was NSFW, the end.
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I think that using surgery to radically alter your physical appearance and butcher your sexual organs is a poor way to deal with what is at heart a psychological issue. I am actually an extremely liberal guy about most things, but I think that the notion that we should just accept this practice because "this is who these people are" is taking things a bit too far.
Why did you use quotation marks? Do you have some reason to doubt the sincerity of people claiming to be transgendered?
Well, it's more that this is categorically not who these people are. If I go through the kind of physical alterations Robert Downey Jr's character went through in Tropic Thunder it does not make me a black man, no matter how much I might wish I was born one or how much I might identify with them. This is no different.
It is truly disgusting.
Can you elaborate? This comment strikes me as pure knee-jerk but I would like to know if there is more to it.
You want me to elaborate on how permanently butchering oneself is a disgusting thing to do? Seriously? I don't even know how to answer that; I feel just the description is ample enough explanation.
Whatever happened to just learning to accept ourselves for who we are? Does that not apply if we have difficulty accepting that we are male, or female?
Let's assume that psychological routes have been exhausted and the difference between gender perception and gender physiology still causes great distress to someone, how would you propose alleviating their suffering?
Well, they can just do what people did before we had drugs and therapy and major sexual organ butchering surgery. Deal with it. I learned to accept that my life isn't perfect and that I will never be perfectly satisfied with it a long time ago.
We all have problems.
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Why should somebody just "deal with it" if there are other options? To avoid making you uncomfortable?
Deal with it. I learned to accept that my life isn't perfect and that I will never be perfectly satisfied with it a long time ago.
That's very brave of you, but unless we include being a bit dim or thinking The Big Bang Theory is funny, you probably weren't born with any serious psychological issues. I would imagine that believing yourself to be trapped in the body of the wrong gender is pretty distressing by itself, and when you combine that with the societal stigma and prejudice present pretty much everywhere in the world, you have a recipe for a serious and, unless dealt with, permanent mental illness.
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Why should somebody just "deal with it" if there are other options? To avoid making you uncomfortable?
Precisely.
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Wasn't someone just making the argument that transgenderism wasn't a psychological disorder? Now it's being defended because it is a psychological disorder.
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Wasn't someone just making the argument that transgenderism wasn't a psychological disorder? Now it's being defended because it is a psychological disorder.
More than one person is posting in this thread. Contrary to popular belief, we aren't all Saddam's alts.
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You want me to elaborate on how permanently butchering oneself is a disgusting thing to do? Seriously? I don't even know how to answer that; I feel just the description is ample enough explanation.
Transgenderism does not necessarily imply physical alterations of any kind.
I find surgically altering one's physical sex repulsive in the same way that I find oversized earrings and tattoos repulsive. That doesn't mean people shouldn't do it, I just wouldn't do it and probably wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone who did. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with any transgender person.
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I think that using surgery to radically alter your physical appearance and butcher your sexual organs is a poor way to deal with what is at heart a psychological issue. I am actually an extremely liberal guy about most things, but I think that the notion that we should just accept this practice because "this is who these people are" is taking things a bit too far.
Why did you use quotation marks? Do you have some reason to doubt the sincerity of people claiming to be transgendered?
Well, it's more that this is categorically not who these people are. If I go through the kind of physical alterations Robert Downey Jr's character went through in Tropic Thunder it does not make me a black man, no matter how much I might wish I was born one or how much I might identify with them. This is no different.
Many transgendered people have the experience of -always- feeling like a man in a woman's body or vice versa and they go through extensive psychological testing in Canada to as sure as possible that people undergoing sexual reassignment surgery are not just in some deep delusion+depression of something of that sort.
It is truly disgusting.
Can you elaborate? This comment strikes me as pure knee-jerk but I would like to know if there is more to it.
You want me to elaborate on how permanently butchering oneself is a disgusting thing to do? Seriously? I don't even know how to answer that; I feel just the description is ample enough explanation.
Sexual reassigment surgery from man to woman can create a fully functioning vagina, in sexual terms and breast implants have long become somewhat normal. Some transexuals are so well transitioned that they are mistaken for cis-sexual people:
(http://janetmock.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/janet-mock-headshot.jpg)
Whatever happened to just learning to accept ourselves for who we are? Does that not apply if we have difficulty accepting that we are male, or female?
Let's assume that psychological routes have been exhausted and the difference between gender perception and gender physiology still causes great distress to someone, how would you propose alleviating their suffering?
Well, they can just do what people did before we had drugs and therapy and major sexual organ butchering surgery. Deal with it. I learned to accept that my life isn't perfect and that I will never be perfectly satisfied with it a long time ago.
We all have problems.
And many people receive medical attention for their problems. As has been echoed already, I am not sure why people who are transgendered should be made to lead a conflict-filled life if it is unnecessary.
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Wasn't someone just making the argument that transgenderism wasn't a psychological disorder? Now it's being defended because it is a psychological disorder.
It has a psychological and a physiological component.
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Parsifal would gladly have sex with a man.
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You want me to elaborate on how permanently butchering oneself is a disgusting thing to do? Seriously? I don't even know how to answer that; I feel just the description is ample enough explanation.
I didn't think it was that big of an issue, Americans systematically butcher their newborn babies.
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You want me to elaborate on how permanently butchering oneself is a disgusting thing to do? Seriously? I don't even know how to answer that; I feel just the description is ample enough explanation.
I didn't think it was that big of an issue, Americans systematically butcher their newborn babies.
As do Jews. Are Jews real hip with transgenders?
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You want me to elaborate on how permanently butchering oneself is a disgusting thing to do? Seriously? I don't even know how to answer that; I feel just the description is ample enough explanation.
I didn't think it was that big of an issue, Americans systematically butcher their newborn babies.
As do Jews. Are Jews real hip with transgenders?
Why wouldn't they be? Transgenders are very profitable.
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Shut the fuck up, Blanko. We are not turning this into another discussion about dicks.
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Shut the fuck up, Blanko. We are not turning this into another discussion about dicks.
Chicks with dicks
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Shut the fuck up, Blanko. We are not turning this into another discussion about dicks.
I didn't say anything about dicks.
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I didn't say anything about dicks.
What exactly are you talking about, then? I'm sure every could appreciate a more detailed argument.
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I didn't say anything about dicks.
What exactly are you talking about, then? I'm sure every could appreciate a more detailed argument.
Yeah, I'm sure you'd love to hear about it :^)
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Daily Mail time!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2634522/Why-NHS-doctors-helping-16-year-old-boy-against-wishes-A-mother-tells-distress-utter-helplessness-beloved-daughters-decision-change-sex.html
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Which part is incorrect?
Transgenderism affects everyone, especially younger generations because it tells people that it's okay to accept something that isn't true. The only reason someone couldn't get away with identifying as a gorilla, for example, is that it would be completely obvious that he/she wasn't one. People can get away with transgenderism only because their private parts aren't hanging out. I don't see why we should lend any more credence to a man identifying as a woman than to a man identifying as a gorilla.
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I'm honestly on the fence about transgenderism myself.
I can accept both of the arguments here. It seems like it may be a disconnect with society's gender norms like Parsifal said. And if it can help people be the person they truly feel they are then sure, why not? It's their choice, not mine.
But ultimately the issue seems bigger than a personal one which is how I feel about cosmetic surgery in general. People aren't comfortable with aging, women aren't comfortable with small breasts. It doesn't bother me when an individual has cosmetic surgery, but it bothers me that society makes them feel like they need it in order to be comfortable with themselves.
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Which part is incorrect?
Transgenderism affects everyone, especially younger generations because it tells people that it's okay to accept something that isn't true. The only reason someone couldn't get away with identifying as a gorilla, for example, is that it would be completely obvious that he/she wasn't one. People can get away with transgenderism only because their private parts aren't hanging out. I don't see why we should lend any more credence to a man identifying as a woman than to a man identifying as a gorilla.
Men can pretty much morph into a female with the right surgery. This has no logical affect on you, it's completely unrelated (unless it personally offends you, which is what looks like is happening here). It's up to the person in question to make a choice, and it's not your choice to make for them. If they want to cut their penis off and pretend to be a women: good for them. How does this affect you? You believe that children shouldn't be exposed to this sort of thing, but why not? Transgenderism (while arguable if it's nature or nurture), I prefer to think it's caused by nature over nurture. Most children are going to be appalled at the idea of cutting their junk off to begin with unless they're suffering from some chemical imbalance (which is usually the cause for most transgender cases).
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Daily Mail time!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2634522/Why-NHS-doctors-helping-16-year-old-boy-against-wishes-A-mother-tells-distress-utter-helplessness-beloved-daughters-decision-change-sex.html
"Megan was deemed old enough to make this radical decision without our input"
The end.
And from the sounds of it she won't get the surgery for another two years. So shut the fuck up mom you're not the boss of me.
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Which part is incorrect?
Transgenderism affects everyone, especially younger generations because it tells people that it's okay to accept something that isn't true. The only reason someone couldn't get away with identifying as a gorilla, for example, is that it would be completely obvious that he/she wasn't one. People can get away with transgenderism only because their private parts aren't hanging out. I don't see why we should lend any more credence to a man identifying as a woman than to a man identifying as a gorilla.
Men can pretty much morph into a female with the right surgery. This has no logical affect on you, it's completely unrelated (unless it personally offends you, which is what looks like is happening here). It's up to the person in question to make a choice, and it's not your choice to make for them. If they want to cut their penis off and pretend to be a women: good for them. How does this affect you? You believe that children shouldn't be exposed to this sort of thing, but why not? Transgenderism (while arguable if it's nature or nurture), I prefer to think it's caused by nature over nurture. Most children are going to be appalled at the idea of cutting their junk off to begin with unless they're suffering from some chemical imbalance (which is usually the cause for most transgender cases).
Men could pretty much morph into a gorilla with the right surgery. They'd just need a lot of hair transplants.
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Men could pretty much morph into a gorilla with the right surgery. They'd just need a lot of hair transplants.
Good for them. I don't care if humans want to be apes either.
Either way, Andrew used a straw man argument, and you're using the same one.
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Technically mtf transgenders don't cut off their penis, but rather it is converted in to a sexually functional vagina.
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People may have missed this:
Transgenderism does not necessarily imply physical alterations of any kind.
Here's a helpful link: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/transgender
In fact, since I reject social gender expectations entirely, one could consider me to be transgender by the second definition of the adjective form on that page.
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Here's a helpful link: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/transgender
In fact, since I reject social gender expectations entirely, one could consider me to be transgender by the second definition of the adjective form on that page.
I would think most people can since very broadly it refers to someone that identifies with elements of both genders. So in that sense a tom boy or a sensitive man would be a transgender, but that's clearly not the common usage of the term.
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I would think most people can since very broadly it refers to someone that identifies with elements of both genders. So in that sense a tom boy or a sensitive man would be a transgender, but that's clearly not the common usage of the term.
Sure, and in this thread I'm assuming we mean the first definition, but even so there is no implication of physical changes.
Most people in this thread probably mean transsexual.
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Shut the fuck up, Blanko. We are not turning this into another discussion about dicks.
Then, why are you trying to turn this into another discussion about dicks?
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Here's a helpful link: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/transgender
Most trans* people I know firmly reject dictionary/DSM definitions of these terms. While your point that transgenderism doesn't imply physical alterations is not something I disagree with, I don't think using dictionary definitions to argue something about people who reject them is a good idea.
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Which part is incorrect?
Transgenderism affects everyone, especially younger generations because it tells people that it's okay to accept something that isn't true. The only reason someone couldn't get away with identifying as a gorilla, for example, is that it would be completely obvious that he/she wasn't one. People can get away with transgenderism only because their private parts aren't hanging out. I don't see why we should lend any more credence to a man identifying as a woman than to a man identifying as a gorilla.
Men can pretty much morph into a female with the right surgery. This has no logical affect on you, it's completely unrelated (unless it personally offends you, which is what looks like is happening here). It's up to the person in question to make a choice, and it's not your choice to make for them. If they want to cut their penis off and pretend to be a women: good for them. How does this affect you? You believe that children shouldn't be exposed to this sort of thing, but why not? Transgenderism (while arguable if it's nature or nurture), I prefer to think it's caused by nature over nurture. Most children are going to be appalled at the idea of cutting their junk off to begin with unless they're suffering from some chemical imbalance (which is usually the cause for most transgender cases).
What? I'm not talking about surgery.
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Which part is incorrect?
Transgenderism affects everyone, especially younger generations because it tells people that it's okay to accept something that isn't true.
The truth about gender is that it is not solely a physiological idea. It has a psychological and sociological component that gets inaccurately excluded from the conversation when you make statements like this.
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The truth about gender is that it is not solely a physiological idea. It has a psychological and sociological component that gets inaccurately excluded from the conversation when you make statements like this.
By "social component" do you mean gender roles?
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The truth about gender is that it is not solely a physiological idea. It has a psychological and sociological component that gets inaccurately excluded from the conversation when you make statements like this.
By "social component" do you mean gender roles?
Yes. What else is gender, anyway?
To me transgenderism is just saying "I want to submit to these expectations instead of these ones". I mean, that is if you want to separate sex from gender. I don't see gender as anything more than the social aspect of what comes from biological sexes.
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The truth about gender is that it is not solely a physiological idea. It has a psychological and sociological component that gets inaccurately excluded from the conversation when you make statements like this.
By "social component" do you mean gender roles?
Yes and no. This may be semantic but each component of gender I listed has a role to play. Admittedly the social and psychological roles are more fluid.
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Yes and no. This may be semantic but each component of gender I listed has a role to play. Admittedly the social and psychological roles are more fluid.
Right, but you do mean roles?
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It's to do with the perception of gender in society.
If gender was truly neutral socially then I very much doubt people would be transgender/transexual.
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Yes and no. This may be semantic but each component of gender I listed has a role to play. Admittedly the social and psychological roles are more fluid.
Right, but you do mean roles?
Yes I do.
EDIT: I think sociological gender would also encompass social cuing through body language as well, although I am sure some will disagree. "Feminine" flirtation is manifested differently than "masculine" flirtation, etc..
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I see your point. I'm just not sure if transgenderism is the right answer to the problem here. I think I'd rather simply oppose gender* roles, which I pretty much do myself anyway. Sometimes I do things that would generally be perceived as feminine, and I have considered identifying as trans-something in the past. Ultimately, I reached a point where I'm perfectly comfortable with my gender, and I simply express myself in the ways I want.
Of course, your mileage may vary, but it just seems to me like this kind of approach could solve the problems of many people without resorting to very drastic changes. I'm sure that this is not something that would work for everyone, however.
* - I lack a better word for this, so I'm just going to carry on using it, but I'm confident I'm in agreement with Rama as to the specifics of the roles.
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Sometimes I do things that would generally be perceived as feminine
Such as?
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Curl his hair.
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Such as?
You'd like to know, wouldn't you? :-*
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Such as?
You'd like to know, wouldn't you? :-*
Umm kind of. Just because I want to know what things are percieved as feminine. :-*
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Umm kind of. Just because I want to know what things are percieved as feminine. :-*
Don't worry, you'll find out when you're older. Suffice to say that I have occasionally been "misgendered", albeit admittedly too rarely for it to mean anything.
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Umm kind of. Just because I want to know what things are percieved as feminine. :-*
Don't worry, you'll find out when you're older. Suffice to say that I have occasionally been "misgendered", albeit admittedly too rarely for it to mean anything.
I don't know what this means.
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Sitting down while having a wee?
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Sitting down while having a wee?
That's just convenience, isn't it?
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Umm kind of. Just because I want to know what things are percieved as feminine. :-*
Don't worry, you'll find out when you're older. Suffice to say that I have occasionally been "misgendered", albeit admittedly too rarely for it to mean anything.
I'm in the same boat. I have never fully identified with the male gender, in fact I posed as a female online for a long time (on the old site) and no one knew any better. I think I played the role well too.
The weird ones to me are the ones that seem to fully personify one gender. It seems like gender roles really fuck with people's heads. That's societies fault, and as we advance further as a civilization I think those stereotyped roles will crumble. Slowly but surely.
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I posed as a female online for a long time (on the old site)
Pretending to be a smokin hot babe isn't transgenderism any more than me pretending to be a 7th level elven mage is transspecism.
and no one knew any better cared.
Fixed.
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I posed as a female online for a long time (on the old site)
Pretending to be a smokin hot babe isn't transgenderism any more than me pretending to be a 7th level elven mage is transspecism.
and no one knew any better cared.
Fixed.
I think Vauxhall is saying that posing as a female was comfortable because of the degree to which he identifies with the gender.
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I'm pretty sure that nobody ever seriously thought that Vauxy was female.
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I posed as a female online for a long time (on the old site)
Pretending to be a smokin hot babe isn't transgenderism any more than me pretending to be a 7th level elven mage is transspecism.
and no one knew any better cared.
Fixed.
I think Vauxhall is saying that posing as a female was comfortable because of the degree to which he identifies with the gender.
Exactly.
And Saddam, shut up. I know at least one person was fooled.
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it seems to me that the only serious argument that anti-trans* people can bring to the table is opposition to surgery and refusing to call people what they'd like to be called. The first is none of your business, and the second is just rude.
As for calling trans* people 'disgusting,' a comment from Natalie Reed is probably worth thinking about
Your feelings of disgust and contempt are fleeting. As soon as me, or some other trans person, is out of your sight, we vanish from your world. The whole existence of transsexuality might as well not exist for you except when you’re directly confronted with it. You’re afforded the luxury of living as though there isn’t such a thing, that the world is neatly divided into men and women, who have certain kinds of respective bodies, and inhabit certain kinds of roles. Your enjoyment of that luxury probably contributed to how much I disturbed you. But me? I never, ever get to ignore this. This is the gender and body I live with every single moment of every single day. And every time I leave my home, I have to try to remember, and emotionally prepare for, the fact that you, and your countless interchangeable proxies, are outside.
And while that disgust you felt suddenly being confronted with a brief, fleeting reminder that bodies such as mine happen to exist is fleeting, the feelings of worthlessness, shame, self-hatred, fear and insecurity inflicted on me by you and the culture that allows, supports and trains you, that lingers. That’s something I have to live with all the time. The reminders aren’t brief or fleeting, and they’re anything but rare.
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Is it always appropriate to call people what they'd like to be called? What if somebody preferred to be addressed by some kind of title that implies social dominance or exclusive privilege?
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Apples and oranges. If people are asking to be called 'your royal highness' that's very different to 'sir' or 'madam' or 'him' and 'her.'
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Apples and oranges. If people are asking to be called 'your royal highness' that's very different to 'sir' or 'madam' or 'him' and 'her.'
Major devil's advocate warning, but: What if I wanted to be referred to as something that's not human? Like a wolf, or some disembodied abstract concept?
You say (or at least imply) that titles of dominance wouldn't be ok, so it seems to me like there's a line to be drawn. Where would you draw the line?
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We are referring to humans on a continuum of an abstract concept called 'gender.' What it means to be a 'woman' or a 'man' or a 'eunuch' have changed radically over history - there have been female kings and male queens, 'two spirit' people who didn't fit into their society's division of male and female, stories of women as men to go to war.
The division between a man as an object, an animal, or an abstract concept are far deeper and more meaningful Also, vanishingly few people actually do ask to be referred to in inhuman terms, unlike trans* people who represent a small but significant minority.
But let's take one subgroup who might be asked to be referred to as inhumans - furries. If we took a furry seriously in their choice of animalit would put responsibilities on us to treat them as such (a wolf, for instance, would be captured and either kept in captivity or released into protected areas - or shot.) as treating them as their animal personalities would mean excemption from human justice (if we treated a wolf furry as a wolf and they killed, would we put them down like we would to physiological wolves?) Treating a furry seriously places unnecessary duties and responibilities on society which doesn't apply to treating a trans* woman as a female.
The only time when demands are placed on society is segregated areas for toilets/ changing areas/ etc, and here it's worth noting that trans* people are frequently abused, beaten or even killed for not conforming to other people's ideas of their gender and for most trans* people, a visit to a public bathroom or changing room can be a truly nerve-wracking experience. On the basis of doing the least harm, perhaps society can make this small accomodation?
The only other time is, I suppose, in sport. Frankly, I have so little interest in sport that I'm not going to bother making the argument since it hasn't come up in about 5 pages of discussion. As far as I'm concerned it's the only serious area in society where there might be grounds for discrimination.
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We are referring to humans on a continuum of an abstract concept called 'gender.' What it means to be a 'woman' or a 'man' or a 'eunuch' have changed radically over history - there have been female kings and male queens, 'two spirit' people who didn't fit into their society's division of male and female, stories of women as men to go to war.
Historically, perhaps, but nowadays it's pretty clear cut. Most people talk about sex, not gender.
But let's take one subgroup who might be asked to be referred to as inhumans - furries. If we took a furry seriously in their choice of animalit would put responsibilities on us to treat them as such (a wolf, for instance, would be captured and either kept in captivity or released into protected areas - or shot.) as treating them as their animal personalities would mean excemption from human justice (if we treated a wolf furry as a wolf and they killed, would we put them down like we would to physiological wolves?) Treating a furry seriously places unnecessary duties and responibilities on society which doesn't apply to treating a trans* woman as a female.
I don't see why. Society doesn't magically change their expectations of you just because you go trans (except, of course, for the presence of transphobes), why would it magically change when you declare yourself to be an ironing board? As you said, it's just about names and titles.
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Guys. My sex is Batman, and you have no right to tell me I'm not a Batman.
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Are you planning on using the Bat-toilet?
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Even though I'm a Batman, I am fully capable of using a regular human toilet.
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Even though I'm a Batman, I am fully capable of using a regular human toilet.
It is difficult to shit on target, hanging upside down though.
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I have no problem drawing a line in the sand at male and female. Pick one and stick with it.
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Even though I'm a Batman, I am fully capable of using a regular human toilet.
It is difficult to shit on target, hanging upside down though.
I don't hang upside down when I take a crap. Who does that?
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Today I tucked my peen between my legs when I got out of the shower and did a little dance in front of the mirror.
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I don't see why. Society doesn't magically change their expectations of you just because you go trans (except, of course, for the presence of transphobes)
Actually, if one were to transition from male to female there is an expectationt that you start doing 'female' things like shaving one's legs or wearing makeup, despite the fact that hairy legs can be had by men or women, trans or otherwise. One thing that a trans woman I know has said is that she feels more pressure to 'dress up smartly' as a woman than as a man. it's perfectly acceptable for a man to go down to the shops looking like a slob, but a woman draws ire. Of course this is a women issue rather than just a trans-woman's issue, but it shows the change in expectations society has if you identify by a different gender. Doubtless a female-to-male trans man would be mocked if he ordered a sparkly fruit cocktail in a bar instead of a beer or something.
Historically, perhaps, but nowadays it's pretty clear cut. Most people talk about sex, not gender.
For the vast majority, sure, but then I'd guess it always has been. If it were, there wouldn't be the fascination with 'ladyboys' or Conchita Wurst's beard/dress combo or this thread. There is a minority of people for whom gender, sexuality, and physiological sex is an issue.
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So gender expectations seem to be the problem and trying to fit what a gender is to society. This seems like horrible justification for permanent modifications.
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So gender expectations seem to be the problem and trying to fit what a gender is to society. This seems like horrible justification for permanent modifications.
It isn't your body they're modifying - what's the problem?
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Because it's weird to me and things I find weird are bad and people are wrong for doing them
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It isn't your body they're modifying - what's the problem?
I don't think "problem" is the right word. I might think that some of people's actions are fundamentally misguided without having any issue with them doing it in principle. It doesn't even have to be anything big - I feel like that about smoking. I think smoking is complete nonsense, but if you want to do it, meh, fine. As you say, it's their lives and their decisions.
Nonetheless, while I wouldn't actively stand in anyone's way to transitioning, I do wonder about the reasoning (both logical and emotional, if that even makes sense) and justification behind it.
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So gender expectations seem to be the problem and trying to fit what a gender is to society. This seems like horrible justification for permanent modifications.
It isn't your body they're modifying - what's the problem?
I'm merely pointing out that the justification behind it is basically "because other people say I'm a girl and not a boy", at least in what I said. You seem very defensive about even having an honest discussion about this. I personally feel that the preferable option would be to address the issue where it is, the mind. I'm sure there would still be cases where an individual would feel wrong in their body, and I don't have a problem with having the procedure. I just have an issue with teens definitively being diagnosed with this when they are in their most fickle stage of life and their sexual orientation may change from month to month.
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Gender dysphoria is not a mental illness. It has a psychological component but that is thought be caused during brain development in utero.
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Causes.aspx
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Nonetheless, while I wouldn't actively stand in anyone's way to transitioning, I do wonder about the reasoning (both logical and emotional, if that even makes sense) and justification behind it.
This was the point I tried to make a few pages back.
Anecdotally, my closest friend's brother is transitioning to female. He is planning to begin hormone therapy within half a year. I am extremely close with their family, and all members of said family are in shock over what is going on, not to mention extremely upset. None of them saw any signs of gender dysphoria, and stories from his past that he mentioned that he claimed "pointed out that he was a girl" were utter bullshit.
My opinion is that he is depressed, hopeless, and feels as if he has failed as a man. He has no job, his parents split when he was in middle school, he seeks approval from his father but doesn't get it etc...
He feels as if he has failed as a man, so the logical conclusion is that he was never meant to be a man.
My question to transgenders is this: If "gender" is how you feel about yourself, why must you change your outsides and mannerisms to achieve satisfaction? Why not just embrace whatever qualities and characteristics you have, and let your physical body be secondary?
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No offense but do you think your opinion should count much in medical matters? As I pointed out above there is a physiological pathology to gender dysphoria, it is not simply a body image issue at least in true cases. I am sure there are false positives and I hope they are few and far between.
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No offense but do you think your opinion should count much in medical matters? As I pointed out above there is a physiological pathology to gender dysphoria, it is not simply a body image issue at least in true cases. I am sure there are false positives and I hope they are few and far between.
I never said my opinion matters. I just gave my opinion.
Also, I was just giving a personal example. I don't believe all transgender cases occur this way.
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So gender expectations seem to be the problem and trying to fit what a gender is to society. This seems like horrible justification for permanent modifications.
It isn't your body they're modifying - what's the problem?
I'm merely pointing out that the justification behind it is basically "because other people say I'm a girl and not a boy"
I think most of the time it has very little to do with what "other people" say and more how the person themself feels.
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So gender expectations seem to be the problem and trying to fit what a gender is to society. This seems like horrible justification for permanent modifications.
It isn't your body they're modifying - what's the problem?
I'm merely pointing out that the justification behind it is basically "because other people say I'm a girl and not a boy"
I think most of the time it has very little to do with what "other people" say and more how the person themself feels.
If you would have at least quoted my entire sentence you would have seen I was speaking about that one train of thought, which seems to be the most popular among those posting here.
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So gender expectations seem to be the problem and trying to fit what a gender is to society. This seems like horrible justification for permanent modifications.
It isn't your body they're modifying - what's the problem?
I'm merely pointing out that the justification behind it is basically "because other people say I'm a girl and not a boy", at least in what I said. You seem very defensive about even having an honest discussion about this. I personally feel that the preferable option would be to address the issue where it is, the mind. I'm sure there would still be cases where an individual would feel wrong in their body, and I don't have a problem with having the procedure. I just have an issue with teens definitively being diagnosed with this when they are in their most fickle stage of life and their sexual orientation may change from month to month.
Getting treatment for transition is usually a very long, very painful process, with doctors acting as 'gatekeepers' between the patient and the full raft of treatments. Normally you have to demonstrate that you've lived as your desired gender for so long before they'll even consider you, even then very few go straight for 'nip/tuck' surgery, most begin a long, arduous process of medication for hormone replacement and testosterone/ estrogen blockers. I doubt anybody goes through transition lightly.
And if I seem defensive it's because I have friends who have or who are transitioning and some of the horror stories about abuse and bullying are genuinely upsetting.
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And if I seem defensive it's because I have friends who have or who are transitioning and some of the horror stories about abuse and bullying are genuinely upsetting.
Well no one here seems like the bullying type so there's no need to be defensive. We're just having a conversation to better understand the thought process or social reasons behind this movement.
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So gender expectations seem to be the problem and trying to fit what a gender is to society. This seems like horrible justification for permanent modifications.
It isn't your body they're modifying - what's the problem?
I'm merely pointing out that the justification behind it is basically "because other people say I'm a girl and not a boy", at least in what I said. You seem very defensive about even having an honest discussion about this. I personally feel that the preferable option would be to address the issue where it is, the mind. I'm sure there would still be cases where an individual would feel wrong in their body, and I don't have a problem with having the procedure. I just have an issue with teens definitively being diagnosed with this when they are in their most fickle stage of life and their sexual orientation may change from month to month.
Getting treatment for transition is usually a very long, very painful process, with doctors acting as 'gatekeepers' between the patient and the full raft of treatments. Normally you have to demonstrate that you've lived as your desired gender for so long before they'll even consider you, even then very few go straight for 'nip/tuck' surgery, most begin a long, arduous process of medication for hormone replacement and testosterone/ estrogen blockers. I doubt anybody goes through transition lightly.
And if I seem defensive it's because I have friends who have or who are transitioning and some of the horror stories about abuse and bullying are genuinely upsetting.
Its not a transition. Its genital mutilation. They don't change your sex. They butcher your genitals. For many that's all they want. Like an extreme form of cutting. Its just attention.
You are what you are. Stop whinging. I'm not an 18 year old boy anymore as much as I wish I was. Knowing what I know now, and looking the way I did then ... Jesus Christ I'd stink of pussy. :-(
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About time you showed up, Thork. Something about this thread just didn't feel angry enough.
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Knowing what I know now, and looking the way I did then ... Jesus Christ I'd stink of pussy. :-(
You still could now.
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Knowing what I know now, and looking the way I did then ... Jesus Christ I'd stink of pussy. :-(
You still could now.
Thanks babe. :-)
when are you coming to England? ;-)
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Now ITT: Thork's opinion.
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Knowing what I know now, and looking the way I did then ... Jesus Christ I'd stink of pussy. :-(
You still could now.
Stay away he stinks of pussy.
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You're born female, you are female. You're born male, you are male, and there's nothing you can do about it. Deal with it, pussy.
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You're born female, you are female. You're born male, you are male, and there's nothing you can do about it. Deal with it, pussy.
Incorrect.
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So gender expectations seem to be the problem and trying to fit what a gender is to society. This seems like horrible justification for permanent modifications.
It isn't your body they're modifying - what's the problem?
I'm merely pointing out that the justification behind it is basically "because other people say I'm a girl and not a boy", at least in what I said. You seem very defensive about even having an honest discussion about this. I personally feel that the preferable option would be to address the issue where it is, the mind. I'm sure there would still be cases where an individual would feel wrong in their body, and I don't have a problem with having the procedure. I just have an issue with teens definitively being diagnosed with this when they are in their most fickle stage of life and their sexual orientation may change from month to month.
Getting treatment for transition is usually a very long, very painful process, with doctors acting as 'gatekeepers' between the patient and the full raft of treatments. Normally you have to demonstrate that you've lived as your desired gender for so long before they'll even consider you, even then very few go straight for 'nip/tuck' surgery, most begin a long, arduous process of medication for hormone replacement and testosterone/ estrogen blockers. I doubt anybody goes through transition lightly.
And if I seem defensive it's because I have friends who have or who are transitioning and some of the horror stories about abuse and bullying are genuinely upsetting.
Its not a transition. Its genital mutilation. They don't change your sex. They butcher your genitals. For many that's all they want. Like an extreme form of cutting. Its just attention.
You are what you are. Stop whinging. I'm not an 18 year old boy anymore as much as I wish I was. Knowing what I know now, and looking the way I did then ... Jesus Christ I'd stink of pussy. :-(
How does converting a penis in to a functional vagina, complete with orgasm mode, constitute mutilation?
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So gender expectations seem to be the problem and trying to fit what a gender is to society. This seems like horrible justification for permanent modifications.
It isn't your body they're modifying - what's the problem?
I'm merely pointing out that the justification behind it is basically "because other people say I'm a girl and not a boy", at least in what I said. You seem very defensive about even having an honest discussion about this. I personally feel that the preferable option would be to address the issue where it is, the mind. I'm sure there would still be cases where an individual would feel wrong in their body, and I don't have a problem with having the procedure. I just have an issue with teens definitively being diagnosed with this when they are in their most fickle stage of life and their sexual orientation may change from month to month.
Getting treatment for transition is usually a very long, very painful process, with doctors acting as 'gatekeepers' between the patient and the full raft of treatments. Normally you have to demonstrate that you've lived as your desired gender for so long before they'll even consider you, even then very few go straight for 'nip/tuck' surgery, most begin a long, arduous process of medication for hormone replacement and testosterone/ estrogen blockers. I doubt anybody goes through transition lightly.
And if I seem defensive it's because I have friends who have or who are transitioning and some of the horror stories about abuse and bullying are genuinely upsetting.
Its not a transition. Its genital mutilation. They don't change your sex. They butcher your genitals. For many that's all they want. Like an extreme form of cutting. Its just attention.
You are what you are. Stop whinging. I'm not an 18 year old boy anymore as much as I wish I was. Knowing what I know now, and looking the way I did then ... Jesus Christ I'd stink of pussy. :-(
How does converting a penis in to a functional vagina, complete with orgasm mode, constitute mutilation?
lrn2thork
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So gender expectations seem to be the problem and trying to fit what a gender is to society. This seems like horrible justification for permanent modifications.
It isn't your body they're modifying - what's the problem?
I'm merely pointing out that the justification behind it is basically "because other people say I'm a girl and not a boy", at least in what I said. You seem very defensive about even having an honest discussion about this. I personally feel that the preferable option would be to address the issue where it is, the mind. I'm sure there would still be cases where an individual would feel wrong in their body, and I don't have a problem with having the procedure. I just have an issue with teens definitively being diagnosed with this when they are in their most fickle stage of life and their sexual orientation may change from month to month.
Getting treatment for transition is usually a very long, very painful process, with doctors acting as 'gatekeepers' between the patient and the full raft of treatments. Normally you have to demonstrate that you've lived as your desired gender for so long before they'll even consider you, even then very few go straight for 'nip/tuck' surgery, most begin a long, arduous process of medication for hormone replacement and testosterone/ estrogen blockers. I doubt anybody goes through transition lightly.
And if I seem defensive it's because I have friends who have or who are transitioning and some of the horror stories about abuse and bullying are genuinely upsetting.
Its not a transition. Its genital mutilation. They don't change your sex. They butcher your genitals. For many that's all they want. Like an extreme form of cutting. Its just attention.
You are what you are. Stop whinging. I'm not an 18 year old boy anymore as much as I wish I was. Knowing what I know now, and looking the way I did then ... Jesus Christ I'd stink of pussy. :-(
How does converting a penis in to a functional vagina, complete with orgasm mode, constitute mutilation?
Functional? It can have babies, can it? Its not a sex change. Its hacking a penis about to look like a vagina. If I get a potato, and carve it into the shape of a rabbit, that doesn't make it a rabbit. It makes it a rabbit shaped potato. Ergo people who do this end up with vagina shaped penises. Not vaginas. And frankly, yuck.
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ITT: False equivalency.
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So gender expectations seem to be the problem and trying to fit what a gender is to society. This seems like horrible justification for permanent modifications.
It isn't your body they're modifying - what's the problem?
I'm merely pointing out that the justification behind it is basically "because other people say I'm a girl and not a boy", at least in what I said. You seem very defensive about even having an honest discussion about this. I personally feel that the preferable option would be to address the issue where it is, the mind. I'm sure there would still be cases where an individual would feel wrong in their body, and I don't have a problem with having the procedure. I just have an issue with teens definitively being diagnosed with this when they are in their most fickle stage of life and their sexual orientation may change from month to month.
Getting treatment for transition is usually a very long, very painful process, with doctors acting as 'gatekeepers' between the patient and the full raft of treatments. Normally you have to demonstrate that you've lived as your desired gender for so long before they'll even consider you, even then very few go straight for 'nip/tuck' surgery, most begin a long, arduous process of medication for hormone replacement and testosterone/ estrogen blockers. I doubt anybody goes through transition lightly.
And if I seem defensive it's because I have friends who have or who are transitioning and some of the horror stories about abuse and bullying are genuinely upsetting.
Its not a transition. Its genital mutilation. They don't change your sex. They butcher your genitals. For many that's all they want. Like an extreme form of cutting. Its just attention.
You are what you are. Stop whinging. I'm not an 18 year old boy anymore as much as I wish I was. Knowing what I know now, and looking the way I did then ... Jesus Christ I'd stink of pussy. :-(
How does converting a penis in to a functional vagina, complete with orgasm mode, constitute mutilation?
Functional? It can have babies, can it? Its not a sex change. Its hacking a penis about to look like a vagina. If I get a potato, and carve it into the shape of a rabbit, that doesn't make it a rabbit. It makes it a rabbit shaped potato. Ergo people who do this end up with vagina shaped penises. Not vaginas. And frankly, yuck.
This is why I keep coming back.
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Thork makes fappen blush.
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So gender expectations seem to be the problem and trying to fit what a gender is to society. This seems like horrible justification for permanent modifications.
It isn't your body they're modifying - what's the problem?
I'm merely pointing out that the justification behind it is basically "because other people say I'm a girl and not a boy", at least in what I said. You seem very defensive about even having an honest discussion about this. I personally feel that the preferable option would be to address the issue where it is, the mind. I'm sure there would still be cases where an individual would feel wrong in their body, and I don't have a problem with having the procedure. I just have an issue with teens definitively being diagnosed with this when they are in their most fickle stage of life and their sexual orientation may change from month to month.
Getting treatment for transition is usually a very long, very painful process, with doctors acting as 'gatekeepers' between the patient and the full raft of treatments. Normally you have to demonstrate that you've lived as your desired gender for so long before they'll even consider you, even then very few go straight for 'nip/tuck' surgery, most begin a long, arduous process of medication for hormone replacement and testosterone/ estrogen blockers. I doubt anybody goes through transition lightly.
And if I seem defensive it's because I have friends who have or who are transitioning and some of the horror stories about abuse and bullying are genuinely upsetting.
Its not a transition. Its genital mutilation. They don't change your sex. They butcher your genitals. For many that's all they want. Like an extreme form of cutting. Its just attention.
You are what you are. Stop whinging. I'm not an 18 year old boy anymore as much as I wish I was. Knowing what I know now, and looking the way I did then ... Jesus Christ I'd stink of pussy. :-(
How does converting a penis in to a functional vagina, complete with orgasm mode, constitute mutilation?
Functional? It can have babies, can it? Its not a sex change. Its hacking a penis about to look like a vagina. If I get a potato, and carve it into the shape of a rabbit, that doesn't make it a rabbit. It makes it a rabbit shaped potato. Ergo people who do this end up with vagina shaped penises. Not vaginas. And frankly, yuck.
It can be used for sex, unlike the potato rabbit. Not everybody is as concerned about having children as you are.
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Functional? It can have babies, can it? Its not a sex change. Its hacking a penis about to look like a vagina. If I get a potato, and carve it into the shape of a rabbit, that doesn't make it a rabbit. It makes it a rabbit shaped potato. Ergo people who do this end up with vagina shaped penises. Not vaginas. And frankly, yuck.
Thork uses his superpowers of reason to deduce that infertile women do not have vaginas.
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It can be used for sex, unlike the potato rabbit. Not everybody is as concerned about having children as you are.
A strap-on can be used for sex, but that doesn't make it a penis. And arguably neither does flesh carved into the shape of a penis make a penis.
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Functional? It can have babies, can it? Its not a sex change. Its hacking a penis about to look like a vagina. If I get a potato, and carve it into the shape of a rabbit, that doesn't make it a rabbit. It makes it a rabbit shaped potato. Ergo people who do this end up with vagina shaped penises. Not vaginas. And frankly, yuck.
Thork uses his superpowers of reason to deduce that infertile women do not have vaginas.
A mutilated penis doesn't function like a vagina in purely sexual terms. Its useless.
Give a woman's vagina a little rub and her soft vulva will flush with blood. Gently rub your tongue up towards her clitoris and it will enlarge and try to pop its little face out from underneath its shell. Plunge your throbbing manhood deep inside and it will coat your cock in a warm pussy butter. And then at the moment of reckoning ask the girl to wrap her legs around you and try to grip as hard as she can whilst you splatter her ovaries in baby batter.
Or, navigate your way through an unearthly concoction of cosmetic folds and scarring, find a hole where a penis has had its meat removed and is now inside out. Push your traumatised penis into the inside out penis which is going to need a tub of axle grease and one hell of an imagination on your part, throw your load if you can into this skin pouch and prey when you pull out, the inverted meat monstrosity doesn't pull itself back the right way round and dangle like a baby elephant's trunk wondering what happened to its two friends now that it can see the outside world again.
If you are liberal to love someone no matter what, crack on. Personally, I'm still sane enough to know when I have witnessed the wrath of God and all his vengeance and I leave anything that looks like pure evil to those of you with out the balls to say "actually yeah. that's bloody disgusting".
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That was an incredible read, Thork.
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(http://blog.estately.com/assets/the-more-you-know-1.png)
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I am more interested in what was going on inside your head. A description that vivid means that you literally had thoughts of making love to a trans* I find that incredibly fascinating.
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That was an incredible read, Thork.
It really was.
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Functional? It can have babies, can it? Its not a sex change. Its hacking a penis about to look like a vagina. If I get a potato, and carve it into the shape of a rabbit, that doesn't make it a rabbit. It makes it a rabbit shaped potato. Ergo people who do this end up with vagina shaped penises. Not vaginas. And frankly, yuck.
Thork uses his superpowers of reason to deduce that infertile women do not have vaginas.
A mutilated penis doesn't function like a vagina in purely sexual terms. Its useless.
Give a woman's vagina a little rub and her soft vulva will flush with blood. Gently rub your tongue up towards her clitoris and it will enlarge and try to pop its little face out from underneath its shell. Plunge your throbbing manhood deep inside and it will coat your cock in a warm pussy butter. And then at the moment of reckoning ask the girl to wrap her legs around you and try to grip as hard as she can whilst you splatter her ovaries in baby batter.
Or, navigate your way through an unearthly concoction of cosmetic folds and scarring, find a hole where a penis has had its meat removed and is now inside out. Push your traumatised penis into the inside out penis which is going to need a tub of axle grease and one hell of an imagination on your part, throw your load if you can into this skin pouch and prey when you pull out, the inverted meat monstrosity doesn't pull itself back the right way round and dangle like a baby elephant's trunk wondering what happened to its two friends now that it can see the outside world again.
If you are liberal to love someone no matter what, crack on. Personally, I'm still sane enough to know when I have witnessed the wrath of God and all his vengeance and I leave anything that looks like pure evil to those of you with out the balls to say "actually yeah. that's bloody disgusting".
Some fine fiction.
Unfortunately for Thork it is just that.
Rooster-You really need to consummate this thing with Thork already. It's getting awkward.
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Rooster-You really need to consummate this thing with Thork already. It's getting awkward.
No, the trans part was pretty fascinating. The imagery was great since I have never considered having sex with a transsexual vagina. I can now understand why someone who thinks of it that way would find it unappealing.
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Rooster-You really need to consummate this thing with Thork already. It's getting awkward.
No, the trans part was pretty fascinating. The imagery was great since I have never considered having sex with a transsexual vagina. I can now understand why someone who thinks of it that way would find it unappealing.
(http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/paul_newman.jpg)
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Functional? It can have babies, can it? Its not a sex change. Its hacking a penis about to look like a vagina. If I get a potato, and carve it into the shape of a rabbit, that doesn't make it a rabbit. It makes it a rabbit shaped potato. Ergo people who do this end up with vagina shaped penises. Not vaginas. And frankly, yuck.
Thork uses his superpowers of reason to deduce that infertile women do not have vaginas.
A mutilated penis doesn't function like a vagina in purely sexual terms. Its useless.
Give a woman's vagina a little rub and her soft vulva will flush with blood. Gently rub your tongue up towards her clitoris and it will enlarge and try to pop its little face out from underneath its shell. Plunge your throbbing manhood deep inside and it will coat your cock in a warm pussy butter. And then at the moment of reckoning ask the girl to wrap her legs around you and try to grip as hard as she can whilst you splatter her ovaries in baby batter.
Or, navigate your way through an unearthly concoction of cosmetic folds and scarring, find a hole where a penis has had its meat removed and is now inside out. Push your traumatised penis into the inside out penis which is going to need a tub of axle grease and one hell of an imagination on your part, throw your load if you can into this skin pouch and prey when you pull out, the inverted meat monstrosity doesn't pull itself back the right way round and dangle like a baby elephant's trunk wondering what happened to its two friends now that it can see the outside world again.
If you are liberal to love someone no matter what, crack on. Personally, I'm still sane enough to know when I have witnessed the wrath of God and all his vengeance and I leave anything that looks like pure evil to those of you with out the balls to say "actually yeah. that's bloody disgusting".
Pizza pizza pizza pizza pizza pizza
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I just woke up from a dream wherein I watched a news report about somebody who, during an investigation for some other irrelevant crime, was found to have an extensive collection of rabbit shaped dildos carved from potatoes. Not kidding.
Functional? It can have babies, can it? Its not a sex change. Its hacking a penis about to look like a vagina. If I get a potato, and carve it into the shape of a rabbit, that doesn't make it a rabbit. It makes it a rabbit shaped potato. Ergo people who do this end up with vagina shaped penises. Not vaginas. And frankly, yuck.
Thork uses his superpowers of reason to deduce that infertile women do not have vaginas.
A mutilated penis doesn't function like a vagina in purely sexual terms. Its useless.
Give a woman's vagina a little rub and her soft vulva will flush with blood. Gently rub your tongue up towards her clitoris and it will enlarge and try to pop its little face out from underneath its shell. Plunge your throbbing manhood deep inside and it will coat your cock in a warm pussy butter. And then at the moment of reckoning ask the girl to wrap her legs around you and try to grip as hard as she can whilst you splatter her ovaries in baby batter.
Or, navigate your way through an unearthly concoction of cosmetic folds and scarring, find a hole where a penis has had its meat removed and is now inside out. Push your traumatised penis into the inside out penis which is going to need a tub of axle grease and one hell of an imagination on your part, throw your load if you can into this skin pouch and prey when you pull out, the inverted meat monstrosity doesn't pull itself back the right way round and dangle like a baby elephant's trunk wondering what happened to its two friends now that it can see the outside world again.
If you are liberal to love someone no matter what, crack on. Personally, I'm still sane enough to know when I have witnessed the wrath of God and all his vengeance and I leave anything that looks like pure evil to those of you with out the balls to say "actually yeah. that's bloody disgusting".
I wish this could be my signature.
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Push your traumatised penis
(https://i.imgflip.com/98nkt.jpg)
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It would be hilarious if business girl turned out to be a tranny.
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Great minds...
I'm gonna go be sick.
What?! Is she trans*?
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I don't get it....
if you're born a boy or a girl, how could you just magically turn into the other one??
???