The Conspiracy is Too Big
« on: January 09, 2016, 05:29:35 PM »
I've looked around for discussions on this, and they all seem to have gotten off track pretty quickly. I'm hoping this one doesn't.

The crux of my argument is that if the world is flat, there are a lot of people who would have to know, and who would have to be keeping it a secret. Leaving aside the question of why this conspiracy would get started in the first place, I want to know why each of these groups of people would find it in their interest to willingly lie to the public about this.

1. Geoscientists. As you can see from pictures like (A) below, geoscientists certainly rely on the assumption of a round earth. From their papers, they seem to operate quite well under these assumptions, and perform experiments which would immediately falsify either FE or RE (you'd never be able to detect seismic waves as shown in that picture in FE, right?). Therefore, there must be a rather large number of geoscientists who know the earth is flat, yet continue to practice their sham science and, I suppose, just straight up create false data from nothing. Why? What do they have to gain from being part of a field whose fundamental assumption they know to be false? Add under this heading Meteorologists as well, whose mapping of weather patterns in the Southern hemisphere must be completely incorrect (although they do a pretty good job with those radar maps despite apparently having no idea how the earth is shaped...) and Oceanographers as well, whose detailed maps of sea currents, etc., must be fatally flawed since they don't even know how far it is from Australia to South America.

2. Airlines. If the world actually looks like (B), then all southern-hemisphere flights must be longer than they're actually billed. Airline pilots and those creating their routes must know how far they're actually going, even if they try to keep it a secret from their passengers for some reason. There are, after all, nonstop flights from Australia to South America all the time, for instance. They'd have to either fly over the North Pole (which would be very hard to justify) or take an extremely long path across the enormous Pacific Ocean (which would be extremely inefficient). Either way, there have to be a great many people in the airline business that know. Why do they keep quiet?

3. Sailors. From the voyages of James Cook (C) to the Vendee Globe yacht race (D) to basically every commercial freighter that sails in the Southern Hemisphere, the distances these people travel and the way they navigate is based on a round earth. It would be impossible for the Vendee Globe sailors to go around the perimeter of the disk earth as quickly as they do, so is that whole thing a sham? If so, why even host it? Why should those sailors, along with all the commercial sailors, keep this quiet? As a subcategory here, include cartographers, who even hundreds of years ago were drawing world maps that look entirely incompatible with (B).

4. Physicists. A lot of physics, even stuff that doesn't seem to be at first, is predicated on the idea of gravity working pretty much the way Isaac Newton said it does. If you're saying Newtonian gravity is completely wrong, then the Cavendish experiment is a hoax, along with General Relativity. There are many papers that confirm the findings of Newton and Einstein, so these all must be fraudulent and at least some of those physicists must know that. Why don't they go public with this? I've seen that there are answers to this on the wiki, so in the interest of not re-hashing old arguments, I'm dropping this point for now.

5. Smaller governments. To the extent that I've seen any justification for a vast RE conspiracy, it's that larger governments, like the US, want to brainwash the masses or something. But what about other countries that have geoscientists and airline pilots and commercial sailors -- in other words, countries that have the ability to figure this out? Do they have the same incentive as the big guys to keep this under wraps? What about countries 100, 200, 500 years ago, and all the ones in between? How have all these governments agreed that maintaining this sweeping RE deception is beneficial?

6. Larger governments. As above, they certainly know. This is the group usually focused on in these discussions, so I'd like to de-emphasize it somewhat, but I still would like to know why in the world they would want to perpetrate this massive hoax. When has any other government project gone on for so long, so successfully, and even through massive regime changes? And whatever their ultimate goals are, is pouring the trillions of dollars it must take to fake NASA, pay off whoever needs paying off, and secure the Antarctic Ice Wall *really* the best way these countries have of acheiving those goals?

Also, not only is there the direct cost of all that falsifying, but the additional cost of having a public that's not scientifically literate. If the Earth is actually flat, surely there are consequences of that which could be better exploited if it didn't need to be kept a secret?

I'm purposely de-emphasizing NASA and other space agencies as well -- I don't want this to get sidetracked into a discussion solely about them, that ground has been well-trod many times. It probably leaves out many other groups of people that would also have to know the shape of the Earth, no matter what it is. The bottom line is that the conspiracy seems too enormous to be sustainable.

---Pictures---

(A)

(B)

(C)

(D)

(see here for more information on the Vendee Globe race.)
« Last Edit: January 15, 2016, 08:08:19 PM by rubberbands »

MrAtlas

Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2016, 08:41:21 PM »

It's a very good point.

Some people claim that the World Cup in Football in 1958 never took place. The theory is that it was made up by the Swedish government and CIA as a propaganda tool during the Cold War. Critics of this theory say that it's ridiculous because thousands of people actually saw the games on the stadium during the weeks of playoff.

However, millions of people would be 'involved' in keeping the Flat Earth secret! Over decades! For no (obvious) reason!

MrAtlas

Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2016, 06:56:59 AM »

It's a shame that no flat earthers will comment on this valid question. How can the government keep millions of people from telling 'the truth', when they can't even manage to place a chemical weapon in the Iraqi desert for the weapon inspectors to find?

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Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2016, 03:17:37 PM »


It's a shame that no flat earthers will comment on this valid question. How can the government keep millions of people from telling 'the truth', when they can't even manage to place a chemical weapon in the Iraqi desert for the weapon inspectors to find?

It's a false assumption that "millions" of people would have any knowledge of this. I'm not sure why you think millions would be involved.

MrAtlas

Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2016, 03:31:23 PM »

I don't think it's a false assumption at all. Think about all the categories mentioned above.

All commercial pilots (130.000 as of Feb. 2015) and navigators and planners (probably much more than the number of pilots). And that's just the current number. You also need to count in everybody who have even been such person, say, in the past 70 years!
40 different nations have had astronauts in space (I know you think this not a fact) so you need to count in all the astronauts and direct staff. And government people.

Sailors, scientist, computer engineers and much more...

But ok, let's just work with rounded numbers and say 1 million people. It doesn't change the assumption for the question much.

Best regards

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Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2016, 03:51:06 PM »
How would any of these people be able to confirm Earth's shape, other than hypothetical astronauts?

Since we are just making things up, I'll say under 100 people need to be involved which has as much supporting evidence as your claim.

MrAtlas

Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2016, 04:14:14 PM »

No, I must disagree. It's has been evident from these discussions that all commercial pilots are 'instructed' where not to fly and for what reasons.

Hmm.. But at least you'd agree that the astronauts would be involved. Let's start with these 540 astronauts who have been in space then. (You agree that a significant number of additional people among the ground personnel would have to be involved in the 'lie' as well, right?) They come from 40 different nations with 40 different agendas, politics, religion, economy and so. The conspiracy is still too big.

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Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2016, 04:19:18 PM »
So we go from millions, to a million, to several hundred. I think if we keep at this you'll realize how few are really involved.

MrAtlas

Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2016, 05:08:03 PM »

No we're not. Please read what I wrote. I'm now talking about the group we both can agree on. The astronauts.

I think you're being polemic because you're trying to avoid the question. I believe there must be millions, but let's play ball on your field.


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Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2016, 05:18:43 PM »


No we're not. Please read what I wrote. I'm now talking about the group we both can agree on. The astronauts.

I think you're being polemic because you're trying to avoid the question. I believe there must be millions, but let's play ball on your field.


Regards

Avoiding what question? You haven't asked me anything.

MrAtlas

Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2016, 05:30:52 PM »

How is it possible to orchestrate this 'round earth lie' for so many years among so many different stakeholders with no information leaks whatsoever?

I guess your answer is "That's very easy!", so just let this question for other people to reflect on.

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Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2016, 05:33:17 PM »


How is it possible to orchestrate this 'round earth lie' for so many years among so many different stakeholders with no information leaks whatsoever?

I guess your answer is "That's very easy!", so just let this question for other people to reflect on.

Okay, so it seems you'd rather answer your own questions rather than have any sort of a discussion. Have fun with that.

MrAtlas

Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2016, 06:07:02 PM »

I was merely guessing on your answer. You're free to prove me wrong, but you have just been so eager to avoid answering.

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Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2016, 06:16:56 PM »


I was merely guessing on your answer. You're free to prove me wrong, but you have just been so eager to avoid answering.

Prove you wrong? That isn't how burden of proof works. I haven't avoided anything. You're asking a question based on a false premise, and then providing your own answer.

MrAtlas

Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2016, 06:21:12 PM »

Ok. You don't want to asnwer. That's ok.

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Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2016, 06:31:20 PM »


Ok. You don't want to asnwer. That's ok.

There isn't anything to answer yet. Your question is based on an unsubstantiated claim. If we're basing everything off of said claim, then I already answered.

Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2016, 02:39:17 AM »
@Junker: I wrote a whole post (the one that started this thread) explaining why at least some nontrivial subset of several large, disparate groups of people would have to know about the Flat-Earth coverup, if there were such a thing. If you disagree with any of my points, by all means say so. But if not, then we can accept that some relatively large number of people know. You and MrAtlas aren't contributing anything with this bickering.

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Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2016, 02:53:30 AM »

@Junker: I wrote a whole post (the one that started this thread) explaining why at least some nontrivial subset of several large, disparate groups of people would have to know about the Flat-Earth coverup, if there were such a thing. If you disagree with any of my points, by all means say so. But if not, then we can accept that some relatively large number of people know. You and MrAtlas aren't contributing anything with this bickering.

Incidentally, there is nothing but conjecture regarding how big this group must be. I'm not sure what you're looking for in reply when the premise is so flawed.

Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2016, 09:40:12 AM »
I gave what I still believe to be very good reasons that many people in each of these fields, in order to be able to do their jobs successfully (which they clearly do -- unless you're disputing that seismographs, weather maps, maps of ocean currents, shipping routes, etc exist and function properly in the southern hemisphere), must know the shape of the earth. I have argued for this point in the OP. I would like you to actually address some part of the content of this post, because so far all you've done is claim with no support that my premise is flawed.

I am still there only one who has put forth any argument at all for a position in this thread (MrAtlas has also put together a loose argument for some vague numbers, which I appreciate, although as I mentioned in the OP I want to keep NASA more or less out of this. People on this forum are way too obsessed with NASA, and I believe my argument is still quite strong without them). I would like for someone to actually respond to that with an argument of their own.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2016, 10:06:06 AM by rubberbands »

Re: The Conspiracy is Too Big
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2016, 11:05:15 AM »
Question: when is the old map, the unipolar map, going to be put out of existence?


Now, here are some facts about the iron core/seismic waves you didn't know about:

"The presence of iron in the shell or the migration of heavy metals from the core to the shell has not been sufficiently explained. For these metals to have left the core, they must have been ejected by explosions, and in order to remain spread through the crust, the explosions must have been followed immediately by cooling.

If, in the beginning, the planet was a hot conglomerate of elements, as the nebular as well as the tidal theories assume, then the iron of the globe should have become oxidized and combined with all available oxygen. But for some unknown reasons this did not happen; thus the presence of oxygen in the terrestrial atmosphere is unexplained."

For some inexplicable reason, many cosmologists believe that a solid Iron core is necessary to explain stellar and planetary magnetism.

What is so special about a solid Iron core? Iron only forms a magnet at low temperatures. Steel is more resilient holding residual magnetism at moderately high temperatures, but looses all directed magnetic qualities with heating, impact and chemical activity. Once steel is magnetised, it normally takes a great deal of energy from an external source to reverse the magnetic direction, yet the Earth's magnetic field flips automatically without energy being applied from any external object. This flip occurs within a short geological time frame. The magnetic field generator of the Earth, the Sun, and the Galaxy must work at temperatures exceeding 10,000C, perhaps in excess of 1,000,000C in the Sun. Steel is magnetic only to temperatures of about 500C. Geologist contradict the solid Iron core belief claiming that the Earth has a "liquid Iron core" citing unscientific beliefs about the properties of S-waves because these waves do not travel through the core. Oddly, geological evidence proves the core's density is far too low and the speed of sound far too slow for Iron , Iron minerals and liquid Iron, but then in total contradiction, the geologists claim the core as being the magnetic field generator, when they have not determined a suitable mechanism to power the magnetic field or to explain magnetic reversals. As the speed of sound and the density of the core are lower than the crust and half that of Iron compounds, one must be very dubious of both composition claims for the core. This belief in "Iron" is a scientific artifact that should have been dropped many years ago.

http://web.archive.org/web/20090207162952/http://geocities.com/longhairedbastard/chv7_11.htm


Here is the correct FE map, in the context of the Vendee race:

http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=3422.0


If you're saying Newtonian gravity is completely wrong, then the Cavendish experiment is a hoax, along with General Relativity. There are many papers that confirm the findings of Newton and Einstein, so these all must be fraudulent and at least some of those physicists must know that. Why don't they go public with this?

You have at your disposal my messages (here and on the other website) which contain counterexamples to Newton's alleged law of attractive gravity, the debunking of the flawed Cavendish experiment and also the total refutation of the GTR/STR.