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Offline Tom Bishop

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FE Core Mechanical Gyro Test
« on: March 07, 2019, 10:38:52 PM »
On YouTube there are numerous mechanical gyro tests which show no rotation beneath the earth. People have taken time lapse videos of gyroscopes, showing that over long periods of time that the earth does not rotate beneath it. The common rebuttal to this experiment is that the gyroscopes are "not sensitive enough."

I am interested in the following FE Core project:

Mechanical Gyro Motion Testing

https://fecore.org/project/mechanical-gyro-motion-testing/

FE Core is building a mechanical gyroscope with a base that can simulate the rotation of the earth.



"The bearing at the base of the gyro can be turned by a control circuit and a series of step down gears at rates slow enough to simulate between 5° to 70° per hour earth rotation in either direction."

The base of the gyro acts as a control to the validity of the device. If the gyro can detect the rotation of the base, then it should be able to detect the rotation of the earth. A performance of this experiment with no drift would provide an experiment that is difficult to impeach.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 10:46:00 PM by Tom Bishop »

Mysfit

Re: FE Core Mechanical Gyro Test
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2019, 10:42:17 PM »
This seems more like a FE project, that the other Tom may be able to help with once he has finished detecting gravity.
The problem would come with if his results would be considered trustworthy.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: FE Core Mechanical Gyro Test
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2019, 10:53:17 PM »
Anyone who builds such a device could always find a semi-public figure, such as a community college physics professor, to ship the device to, in order to verify the results. FE Core should do this as validation.

The fact that mechanical gyroscopes on YouTube, including demonstrations of aeronautic gyroscopes, cannot seem to see the rotation of the earth at all is curious. I am looking forward to seeing this experiment performed with the control of the rotating base.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 11:05:00 PM by Tom Bishop »

Mysfit

Re: FE Core Mechanical Gyro Test
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2019, 10:59:45 PM »
Anyone who builds such a device could always find a semi-public figure, such as a community college physics professor to ship the device to, in order to verify the results. FE Core should do this as validation.
I am unsure that'd work for most FE folks, they already distrust the commonly accepted physical model of the earth, why would they trust this professor?
Trust is gonna be a hard one, but I agree that some sort of test of this sort can help Sandokhan and Tom.

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Offline WellRoundedIndividual

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Re: FE Core Mechanical Gyro Test
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2019, 03:39:49 AM »
Cheap and small commercially available mechanical gyroscopes are too shoddily built to detect the order of magnitude of the earth's rotation. Inefficiencies induced by low cost bearings and imprecise balancing of the axes do not allow these gyros to detect the earths rotation. And they have to be large. Refer to the size of the Michelson Gale Pearson gyro.
BobLawBlah.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: FE Core Mechanical Gyro Test
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2019, 04:06:37 AM »
That sounds to me like an excuse to explain why mechanical gyroscopes don't experience the rotation of the earth. Take a look at what Savage Plane has done:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/savageplane.wordpress.com/2017/01/10/the-great-gyroscope-bearing-friction-test-finally/amp/

He bought a gyroscope and was told, even by the manufacturer, that it was not capable of detecting the Earth's rotation of 15 degrees per hour. So he took apart a 24 hour clock to act as a rotating base to test that for himself.

What he found was that the gyroscope was indeed able to detect a 15 degree per hour rotation.

Here is an 8 minute globebusters video on the subject:



FE Core seems to be creating a more thorough version of these tests. Proving this matter should absolutely be possible. A rotating base acts as a control to the claims of what the gyroscope can and cannot detect.

Refer to the size of the Michelson Gale Pearson gyro.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Michelson-Gale-Pearson_Experiment

Are you talking about this?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 04:56:53 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline stack

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Re: FE Core Mechanical Gyro Test
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2019, 05:29:05 AM »
FE Core seems to be creating a more thorough version of these tests. Proving this matter should absolutely be possible. A rotating base acts as a control to the claims of what the gyroscope can and cannot detect.

I don't think that's the case. At least from what I have seen. If you check out FECORE's channel on youtube, they have some recent vids. None of which mention any gyro testing, unless I missed something. They are all seemingly hot on the "Force the Level" experiments. Nothing to do with gyros.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: FE Core Mechanical Gyro Test
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2019, 05:50:47 AM »
Project started in Sept 2018. Last update was less than two months ago, giving a progress update here: https://fecore.org/mechanical-gyro-update/


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Offline stack

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Re: FE Core Mechanical Gyro Test
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2019, 06:25:54 AM »
Project started in Sept 2018. Last update was less than two months ago, giving a progress update here: https://fecore.org/mechanical-gyro-update/

And yeah, I'm leery on a few fronts:

-No mention of any of this from FECORE in the last few months - YT Channel
-Not super psyched about their 'membership' fees
-In the recent post they mention: "The other major component of this test is the earth rotation simulator system pictured here." What's an 'earth rotation simulator system'?
-In the recent post they mention: "Tests so far give us high expectations that this gyro might have little or no precession while at operational speeds." Seems hardly Zetetic and/or scientific. And how about showing the test results so far instead of 'fundraising'.

Personally, If I were you, I would not hang my hat on nor die on the FECORE hill.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: FE Core Mechanical Gyro Test
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2019, 07:14:06 AM »
The update before the one two months ago was in October 2018. How often do you think they should be updating us?

Quote
-In the recent post they mention: "Tests so far give us high expectations that this gyro might have little or no precession while at operational speeds." Seems hardly Zetetic and/or scientific. And how about showing the test results so far instead of 'fundraising'.

Since when do people have to do what you want for free?

There is a membership fee to see those results. Since you are interested then it seems that you should sign up to follow their progress and pre-release results.

Mysfit

Re: FE Core Mechanical Gyro Test
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2019, 07:22:02 AM »
Since when do people have to do what you want for free?

There is a membership fee to see those results.
Do round earth folk require payment before showing results? I think stack was under the impression of equity or something

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Offline TomFoolery

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Re: FE Core Mechanical Gyro Test
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2019, 07:39:45 AM »
All very interesting.

Some of the "gotchas" on these gyro tests is that they can be slightly imbalanced to induce a drift of any rate desired.
The only way to know if you have them really balanced is to see if they have drift, then invert them and operate them upside down, or spin the weight the other way, and see if they drift the same way or the other way.
In other words, you could "balance" them out so they had no drift, even if the earth was rotating by setting an artificial drift rate that compensated.
In fact I had an old timer aircraft gyroscope repair guy tell me a decade ago how he'd ask the small plane customer what their latitude was and when they sent him gyro compasses to calibrate, he'd adjust the little weights inside to get a drift that would counter the earth's rotate at that latitude to minimize the drift for the area the small plane usually flew.

So when I see a video of a gyro humming away with no drift, all balanced out with tape and putty and whatever, it's really cool, but we have no way of knowing if it was balanced in such a way to eliminate the drift at whatever latitude it is, in which case possible earth rotation would have been masked.

Ideally, the gyro would be balanced out with no drift while the axle was pointing at the north star, and the test would be done at near 45 degrees N or S latitude.
Then the thing could be rotated 180 degrees on a level surface without adjusting anything else, and then the axle would be 90 degrees off from the north star, and if the earth was rotating, then suddenly a drift would be seen.

I was playing around with an old vacuum driven gyrocompass  I have but could not get it very stable because the air jet on the weight creates various forces which cause drift which depends on exact RPM and air pressure.

I may have to use an electric one -- or maybe just a large free spinning wheel in a vacuum -- spin it up with compressed air then cap the jar and draw a vacuum to reduce air friction.

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Offline stack

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Re: FE Core Mechanical Gyro Test
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2019, 08:30:04 AM »
The update before the one two months ago was in October 2018. How often do you think they should be updating us?

Quote
-In the recent post they mention: "Tests so far give us high expectations that this gyro might have little or no precession while at operational speeds." Seems hardly Zetetic and/or scientific. And how about showing the test results so far instead of 'fundraising'.

Since when do people have to do what you want for free?

There is a membership fee to see those results. Since you are interested then it seems that you should sign up to follow their progress and pre-release results.

There is a membership cost to see those results? Huh, interesting. What I don't get, and granted, maybe I'm reading this stuff wrong, but I went through the FECORE Projects. There's only one that has 'results', a laser test last year somewhere in Europe. Here's the final results Slideshow link: 

https://fecore.org/final-results-fecore-measurements-disprove-the-wgs84-model-by-proving-flat-lake-surface/

I went through the whole thing, here was the objective:



But at the end there's this slide. Again, I may be reading it wrong:



If I'm to understand this, FECORE's one 'experiment' funded by membership so far (No other experiments have seemingly taken place) found that, for instance, the 10's of km's in distance measurements show the WGS84 to be off by 6 inches at the shortest distance and less than 2 feet at the longest? Am I mistaken in interpretation?




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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: FE Core Mechanical Gyro Test
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2019, 05:21:41 PM »
An update was made last month a few days after this thread was last active.

https://fecore.org/mechanical-gyro-march-update/

Quote
Mechanical Gyro March Update
by Robert Scott | Mar 11, 2019 | News & Updates

The purpose of the mechanical gyroscope project is to provide a method to directly demonstrate the rotation of the earth on its axis. Although the Foucault pendulum is claimed to accomplish this there is enough reports of Foucault pendulum constructions which did not precess according to the theory until several adjustments were made to call into question the validity of the claim.

FECORE’s efforts began with inertial measuring units or IMUs. IMUs are small electronic and mechanical devices found in many cell phones and other sensing devices. They are extremely sensitive and in fact they are not usable for many observations because they are so sensitive that small vibrations can’t be adequately filtered out. The other problem is that they always use a magnetic field sensor to constantly reorient the sensor. This was the reason the project shifted focus to a mechanical gyroscope.

Now let’s get up to speed on the state of the mechanical gyro.
Some observations in testing brought about some changes.
As the gyro was spun up to 3000 plus rpm it created a lot of wind. This air resistance slows down the flywheel after it was spun up by Dremel device. Stefan reduced the air resistance by encasing the entire flywheel with a close fitting plastic case.
Even with the reduced air friction the time of spin above say 6000 was less than 10 minutes and not long enough for any meaningful observations. Attaching a motor would introduce the problem of a wire to the motor which could influence drift or no drift. Stefan decided to have the motor driven by batteries which would also act as a counterweight to balance the weight of the motor.

The result of Stefan’s excellent workmanship is a very balanced gyroscope capable of 10,000 rpm.



In the picture you can see the coupling device between the motor and the flywheel. Below is a close up of it and a sample coupler to show the construction.Also on the motor support mount you can see the bolts used to attach the motor assembly directly to the gyroscope’s frame.



Recently Stefan has been trying to reduce some mechanical vibration at high rpm. Different motor mountings and motor to fly wheel couplings have been tested but more testing is needed.

To place the magnitude of this project into perspective it should be understood that prior to Loran for ocean navigation Sperry Marine made gyro compasses with the express purpose of maintaining rigidity in space as the boat turned and moved. This meant that once the compass was set to true north the gyroscopic action would keep it pointed there. This is the internal workings of a Sperry Mk 14.



These instruments are no longer sold by Sperry. The Sperry Mk 27 was last in production 30 years past. The cost of a refurbished Mk 27 is $71,000 which includes a 90 day warranty. And there is no guarantee that such a device is sensitive enough to measure a movement as small as 15° per hour.

We are thinking that Stefan can give a better warranty and the cost of donated time and labor is more in our budget. Thank you for your dedication Stefan.

Quote from: stack
If I'm to understand this, FECORE's one 'experiment' funded by membership so far (No other experiments have seemingly taken place) found that, for instance, the 10's of km's in distance measurements show the WGS84 to be off by 6 inches at the shortest distance and less than 2 feet at the longest? Am I mistaken in interpretation?

https://wiki.tfes.org/World_Geodetic_System_1984
« Last Edit: April 19, 2019, 05:42:09 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline AATW

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Re: FE Core Mechanical Gyro Test
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2019, 05:56:45 PM »
...And there is no guarantee that such a device is sensitive enough to measure a movement as small as 15° per hour.

...earlier in this thread you said that “sounded like an excuse”.

It is commendable that they are doing tests but you know what’s going to happen. If not precession is detected then you’ll use it as evidence of a stationary earth (despite them admitting the apparatus may not be sensitive enough to).

If precession is detected you’ll explain it away somehow as the good people on Behind The Curve did after the ring laser gyroscope test. I believe “obviously we don’t accept that” is a direct quote. It’s good that tests are being done but there’s no point doing them if the results aren’t going to be accepted or learned from.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: FE Core Mechanical Gyro Test
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2019, 06:10:48 PM »
The sentence you quoted is talking about a different device, a military gyroscope that is being sold for $71,000. While expensive, there is no guarantee that if they buy it that it would be adequate for the purpose (although I suspect that those would be capable of detecting 15/deg hour too). If its shoddily built or if there are issues then it's a lot of money wasted...

The rotating platform helps to provide a control and ensure that the gyroscope they are building would be capable of detecting 15/deg hour.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2019, 06:21:36 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Re: FE Core Mechanical Gyro Test
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2019, 06:13:19 PM »
Anyone who builds such a device could always find a semi-public figure, such as a community college physics professor, to ship the device to, in order to verify the results. FE Core should do this as validation.

The fact that mechanical gyroscopes on YouTube, including demonstrations of aeronautic gyroscopes, cannot seem to see the rotation of the earth at all is curious. I am looking forward to seeing this experiment performed with the control of the rotating base.

A community college professor? Why so specific?

Heck, you should submit the results for publication!

Why anyone would is simply beyond me.

I’ll show ya how to do it!
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Offline stack

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Re: FE Core Mechanical Gyro Test
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2019, 06:44:35 PM »
Quote from: stack
If I'm to understand this, FECORE's one 'experiment' funded by membership so far (No other experiments have seemingly taken place) found that, for instance, the 10's of km's in distance measurements show the WGS84 to be off by 6 inches at the shortest distance and less than 2 feet at the longest? Am I mistaken in interpretation?

https://wiki.tfes.org/World_Geodetic_System_1984

Nothing in the wiki article addresses the fact that FECORE basically validated WGS84. And we all know that the WGS84 is based upon the ellipsoid. Even the Utah article you always cite with the catchy Title, "The Earth is Not Round!", is actually referring the fact that it isn't round, it's an ellipsoid. From the article:

"NAD83 became the statewide datum standard beginning in 1997...UTM NAD83 is a projected coordinate system that represents physical locations abstracted to a flat, cartesian coordinate system. The UTM NAD83 projection uses the GRS80 ellipsoid and a center-of-the-earth anchor point as its datum, both of which are slightly different than the WGS datum."

You really should clean up that wiki entry, it's wildly misleading verging on being outright disingenuous.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: FE Core Mechanical Gyro Test
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2019, 06:48:17 PM »
The article goes over what the anchor points and datums are. "The Earth is Not Round!" sounds pretty clear to me. If the article was about WGS84 distributing round earth measurements the title of the article would be "The Earth is Round!" Ellipsoids are round.

Quote
Geographic coordinates use latitude and longitude values to define positions on the 3D surface of the earth, which is of course, best modeled as an ellipsoid, not a sphere.

...

Latitude and Longitude are useless for measuring distance and area

...

Web Mercator's significant weakness is that measurements of distance and area in its native coordinates are completely unusable.

It says that RE is based on longitude and latitude. The article then says that latitude and longitude are not used.

I would recommend taking it to another thread, as it is off-topic to the subject of gyroscopes and is distracting. Please start a new thread and tell us how this system works if latitude and longitude measurements are not used. I am sure that several others in the community would like to know.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2019, 11:32:21 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline stack

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Re: FE Core Mechanical Gyro Test
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2019, 11:23:27 PM »
The sentence you quoted is talking about a different device, a military gyroscope that is being sold for $71,000. While expensive, there is no guarantee that if they buy it that it would be adequate for the purpose (although I suspect that those would be capable of detecting 15/deg hour too). If its shoddily built or if there are issues then it's a lot of money wasted...

The rotating platform helps to provide a control and ensure that the gyroscope they are building would be capable of detecting 15/deg hour.

How are any of the adjustments they are making to their gyro device any different than the adjustments required by the Foucault pendulum manufacturer stating, "It is important for the photo beam adjustments to be made accurately for power to be applied equally in all directions to the armature"?