The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Community => Topic started by: hawke84 on February 17, 2021, 12:59:56 PM

Title: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: hawke84 on February 17, 2021, 12:59:56 PM
Hey,

just a quick intro: it is my position we live on a globe, in a solar system, in a galaxy and that we are revolving around the sun.
I am not here to convince anyone, or to mock anyone, I am just looking for an answer to a question I cannot obtain talking to other FE-ers.

Could someone provide me with a working map of the world we live in?
I'm an experienced traveller, been around the world a few times and I'd like to see how the locations of cities and countries are positioned on that map.

Thank you
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Tron on February 17, 2021, 04:34:02 PM
Hi Hawk,

Here's a good map I think.  Its 4000 mikes between Alaska and New York and central Eurasia is the same as documented.  More details are discussed here:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=17652.0

Edit:(https://i.imgur.com/7j6e61e.jpg)
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: stack on February 17, 2021, 09:38:53 PM
Hi Hawk,

Here's a good map I think.  Its 4000 mikes between Alaska and New York and central Eurasia is the same as documented.  More details are discussed here:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=17652.0

On your map, how far is it from Santiago, Chile to Cape Town, South Africa?
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Tron on February 18, 2021, 01:47:34 AM
It should be 1/2 the normal distance about 2,500 miles
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: stack on February 18, 2021, 02:58:31 AM
It should be 1/2 the normal distance about 2,500 miles

So doesn't that call into question the accuracy of your map?
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Tron on February 18, 2021, 03:26:43 AM
Maybe Hawk can chime in?  Do you have any experience traveling in the southern hemisphere?

 
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: RazaTD on February 18, 2021, 04:15:49 AM
Hey,

just a quick intro: it is my position we live on a globe, in a solar system, in a galaxy and that we are revolving around the sun.
I am not here to convince anyone, or to mock anyone, I am just looking for an answer to a question I cannot obtain talking to other FE-ers.

Could someone provide me with a working map of the world we live in?
I'm an experienced traveller, been around the world a few times and I'd like to see how the locations of cities and countries are positioned on that map.

Thank you

Logically speaking, because all Flat Earth maps are 2D projections of the true 3D Globe Earth map, there is always some sort of distortion with size, shape, and distances on the maps.

The most popular map is an azimuthal equidistant projection centered on the North Pole. When you compare it with Earth, you can notice how heavily distorted it really is. It also has a lot of other issues for example a missing South Pole location (It has a ring instead which is ridiculous).
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: stack on February 18, 2021, 05:59:08 AM
Maybe Hawk can chime in?  Do you have any experience traveling in the southern hemisphere?

I have. And know many others who have as well. But that's really not the point. The point is that southern hemisphere distances are just as well known as northern hemisphere distances. And if your map has distances anywhere on it that are off by thousands of miles then that drastically takes away the accuracy of said map - Which means it doesn't reflect known reality as observed by millions. A pilot, for instance, that uses your map would end up either lost or dead because they ran out of fuel and crashed. Hyperbole, but maybe you get the point.

Flipping the common AE North Pole centered map/model so that it's South Pole centered is just moving the deck chairs around, so to speak. It doesn't solve anything.  I'm curious to know what problem you think it solves when you know the distances in some areas of it are wildly inaccurate and unrealistic.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: hawke84 on February 18, 2021, 08:33:13 AM
Hey MetaTron. Thanks for sharing.

I have travelled the Southern Hemisphere. I lived in Australia for over a year. I was more curious about an accurate map, not a hand-made sketch, because I can't make out any cities or countries on this one. Did the Flat Earth community not produce a more detailed version of their agreed-upon map ?

I've lived in Australia, Japan, China, most European countries and Canada. I'm trying to see how the FE community has positioned these countries and cities on the map and correlate that with my experience of travelling (by either train or airplane) between them. I cannot really do that with the sketch you provided unfortunately.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Longtitube on February 18, 2021, 10:51:24 AM
... Did the Flat Earth community not produce a more detailed version of their agreed-upon map ?

There is the nub, there is no agreed-upon map, no agreement on the size or shape of the earth in FE circles. Make of it what you will, but that’s how it is.  ???
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: hawke84 on February 18, 2021, 02:09:00 PM
So you're telling me of all the hundreds of thousands of FE believers in the world today, none of them is able to draw up a detailed map ?
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Pete Svarrior on February 18, 2021, 02:12:18 PM
So you're telling me of all the hundreds of thousands of FE believers in the world today, none of them is able to draw up a detailed map ?
Longitube is rather passionate about telling people that he thinks the Earth is round. Personally, I wouldn't put much stock in anything he says about FET. (And he knows better than to make these sort of comments here.)

The reality is that there are multiple competing models, some with a long history (and arguably mainstream), some rather new and original. You can find some of them at https://wiki.tfes.org/Flat_Earth_Maps
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Tron on February 18, 2021, 03:40:03 PM

Hi Hawke and Stack,

Keep in mind if you look closely at this map, Australia, New Zealand, and South America have all gained additional land mass to correct for the shrinking of the southern hemisphere.  I did this by increasing the area between Longitude lines 30w and 60w, 120e and 150e.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: stack on February 18, 2021, 04:57:29 PM

Hi Hawke and Stack,

Keep in mind if you look closely at this map, Australia, New Zealand, and South America have all gained additional land mass to correct for the shrinking of the southern hemisphere.  I did this by increasing the area between Longitude lines 30w and 60w, 120e and 150e.

In short, we're talking about a "working" map. If you're moving longitude lines around and changing distances from what they are in reality, how might you consider your map to be "working"?

For instance, even though a Mercator projection map is distorted (all projections are to some degree), it can still be used for navigation. No one can use your map for navigation as they would die trying.

Side note, you may be interested in this. Some Princeton Astrophycisists (3 days ago) just came out with a projection that is purportedly the least distorted projection to date. They basically took the globe, sliced it in two and flattened it. Then did a whole bunch to it to remove as much distortion and keep it accurate as possible. You take each circle and essentially paste then back to back and voila, a flat globe. Check it out:

The Most Accurate Flat Map of Earth Yet
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/02/16/21/39371294-9267315-The_map_can_display_the_Eastern_and_Western_Hemispheres_on_the_s-a-8_1613512271315.jpg)
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-most-accurate-flat-map-of-earth-yet/
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Pete Svarrior on February 18, 2021, 05:14:16 PM
If you're moving longitude lines around and changing distances from what they are in reality
If you presume RET from the onset, then there is no point in you debating FET vs RET. In that case, you should probably leave the discussion to those who are interested.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Iceman on February 18, 2021, 05:21:18 PM
I see where you're coming from there, but in a thread titled 'a working map...' is it not fair to point out major differences between Tron's provided map compared to the mainstream maps.

Stack's point doesn't so much pre-assume RET as compare the provided map to the status quo (which, obviously is RE-based maps).

Probing for explanations of advantages/disadvantages of the map provided by Tron compared to mainstream seems like a fair extension of the discussion here, no?
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: SteelyBob on February 18, 2021, 06:50:24 PM
If you're moving longitude lines around and changing distances from what they are in reality
If you presume RET from the onset, then there is no point in you debating FET vs RET. In that case, you should probably leave the discussion to those who are interested.

But distances between known points, particularly those over land, don't require a presumption of a particular earth shape as they are verified by countless road journeys that match predictions perfectly. If it wasn't, for example, about 4800km by road from Brisbane to Perth, then we would know about it because lots of people would be pointing out that their odometers bore no resemblance to the distance predicted by google, or waze, or their old-fashioned road atlas. Mainland USA, for example, is roughly the same width at its widest point, just south of the border with Canada, as Australia is - if those two countries on your FE maps aren't the same width, roughly, then something is clearly amiss, and it doesn't require any prior belief about the shape of the earth for that to be true. 

Are we seriously suggesting that distances along major roads between major cities are wrong?
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 18, 2021, 06:55:17 PM
There are anomalous winds in the southern hemisphere - https://wiki.tfes.org/Issues_in_Flight_Analysis

If you are going to try to use travel times to show evidence for a particular model, you need to do better than provide information from an area known to be anomalous.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Iceman on February 18, 2021, 07:30:56 PM
There are anomalous winds in the southern hemisphere - https://wiki.tfes.org/Issues_in_Flight_Analysis

If you are going to try to use travel times to show evidence for a particular model, you need to do better than provide information from an area known to be anomalous.

Just because they are different from those observed in the north, doesnt make the southern winds "anomalous".

The sources provided on the wiki explain the reasons for the difference between hemispheres quite plainly.

It's worth noting here that the antarctic survey quoted in the wiki is a credible source of information. I would encourage readers to dive into the papers, data, and researchers who can provide empirical evidence on the characteristics of Antarctica beyond the 'ice wall'.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: SteelyBob on February 18, 2021, 07:58:12 PM
There are anomalous winds in the southern hemisphere - https://wiki.tfes.org/Issues_in_Flight_Analysis

If you are going to try to use travel times to show evidence for a particular model, you need to do better than provide information from an area known to be anomalous.

I used road journeys in my example Tom. The wind doesn't affect them. And I didn't say 'times', I said 'distances'. As in: 'what people measure using their car odometers', for example.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Tron on February 18, 2021, 07:59:16 PM

The Most Accurate Flat Map of Earth Yet
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/02/16/21/39371294-9267315-The_map_can_display_the_Eastern_and_Western_Hemispheres_on_the_s-a-8_1613512271315.jpg)
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-most-accurate-flat-map-of-earth-yet/


Thanks Stack, interesting idea...
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: scomato on February 18, 2021, 08:09:24 PM
The map is an azimuthal projection centered on wherever you happen to be at any given time. The map changes based on the position of the observer.

If you are standing at the North Pole then the Flat Earth looks like this - there is an Antarctic Ice Wall surrounding the Earth.
(https://i.imgur.com/yzLoNL6.png)

Standing in Florida the Flat Earth looks like this, the Ice Wall transmorphing itself into a continent based on your changed location:
(https://i.imgur.com/DuyyAi7.png)

Standing in Japan it looks like this:
(https://i.imgur.com/Wu94bao.png)

Standing in New Zealand it looks like this - instead of an Antarctic Ice Wall the Earth is now bounded by the Africa and Russia Wall.
(https://i.imgur.com/xegei6H.png)

Standing at the South Pole it looks like this:
(https://i.imgur.com/U6IVPYT.png)
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Tron on February 18, 2021, 08:11:00 PM
Okay, so if I can transpose the new Princeton projection onto the southern hemisphere (and I'll need to use Google's North Hemisphere Azi. Proj) and incorporate known distances then we'll have a better map.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Tron on February 18, 2021, 08:46:07 PM
SteelyBob,  Brisbane to Perth is the same distance on my map, about 3000 miles  If you look closely, I doubled the size of Australia, to compensate for halving it in the new projection.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 18, 2021, 08:57:23 PM
There are anomalous winds in the southern hemisphere - https://wiki.tfes.org/Issues_in_Flight_Analysis

If you are going to try to use travel times to show evidence for a particular model, you need to do better than provide information from an area known to be anomalous.

I used road journeys in my example Tom. The wind doesn't affect them. And I didn't say 'times', I said 'distances'. As in: 'what people measure using their car odometers', for example.

What data did you base your statement on and where can we find it?
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: SteelyBob on February 18, 2021, 09:40:58 PM
What data did you base your statement on and where can we find it?

You want evidence to support the distance across australia? I got my figure(s) from google maps, but the point is that the data you get from google, or indeed any other app, is backed up by thousands of people making journeys every day. At the extreme end of the scale, you have people like this:

https://www.tailoredmedia.com.au/blog/the-4-lessons-i-learned-cycling-across-australia-with-my-son/ (https://www.tailoredmedia.com.au/blog/the-4-lessons-i-learned-cycling-across-australia-with-my-son/)

If the distance wasn't what it was said to be, then their planning simply wouldn't work, would it? And nor would countless others. And every long journey in Australia done by car would trigger an odd mismatch between the planned distance and the reality recorded on the vehicle's odo. In road haulage particularly, those differences would get noticed very quickly.

Are you suggesting that it is not, in fact, about 4800km across Australia as I described?
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Longtitube on February 18, 2021, 10:04:32 PM
So you're telling me of all the hundreds of thousands of FE believers in the world today, none of them is able to draw up a detailed map ?

As Pete has already implied, I am saying nothing about an ability to draw up a detailed map, only (as Pete also says) that there is no consensus on a definitive map.

And thanks for the humour, Pete, it was appreciated.  ;D
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 18, 2021, 10:51:11 PM
What data did you base your statement on and where can we find it?

You want evidence to support the distance across australia? I got my figure(s) from google maps, but the point is that the data you get from google, or indeed any other app, is backed up by thousands of people making journeys every day. At the extreme end of the scale, you have people like this:

https://www.tailoredmedia.com.au/blog/the-4-lessons-i-learned-cycling-across-australia-with-my-son/ (https://www.tailoredmedia.com.au/blog/the-4-lessons-i-learned-cycling-across-australia-with-my-son/)

If the distance wasn't what it was said to be, then their planning simply wouldn't work, would it? And nor would countless others. And every long journey in Australia done by car would trigger an odd mismatch between the planned distance and the reality recorded on the vehicle's odo. In road haulage particularly, those differences would get noticed very quickly.

Are you suggesting that it is not, in fact, about 4800 km across Australia as I described?

So first you claim to have odometer data, and now you don't have that data after all?

Now you backtrack on that and instead show a link which says that two young people cycled 4800 km in 30 days. Here is another link which says that an elderly grandfather cycled 11,616 km in 30 days (https://chvnradio.com/articles/world-record-holder-finishes-a-month-of-cycling-on-a-high-note).

Doesn't look like you've provided much in the way of solid evidence on this to me.

Also, the shape and size of Australia is different among all of the Flat Earth maps (https://wiki.tfes.org/Flat_Earth_Maps). Which one are you trying to debunk?
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: stack on February 19, 2021, 12:08:12 AM
What data did you base your statement on and where can we find it?

You want evidence to support the distance across australia? I got my figure(s) from google maps, but the point is that the data you get from google, or indeed any other app, is backed up by thousands of people making journeys every day. At the extreme end of the scale, you have people like this:

https://www.tailoredmedia.com.au/blog/the-4-lessons-i-learned-cycling-across-australia-with-my-son/ (https://www.tailoredmedia.com.au/blog/the-4-lessons-i-learned-cycling-across-australia-with-my-son/)

If the distance wasn't what it was said to be, then their planning simply wouldn't work, would it? And nor would countless others. And every long journey in Australia done by car would trigger an odd mismatch between the planned distance and the reality recorded on the vehicle's odo. In road haulage particularly, those differences would get noticed very quickly.

Are you suggesting that it is not, in fact, about 4800 km across Australia as I described?

So first you claim to have odometer data, and now you don't have that data after all?

Now you backtrack on that and instead show a link which says that two young people cycled 4800 km in 30 days. Here is another link which says that an elderly grandfather cycled 11,616 km in 30 days (https://chvnradio.com/articles/world-record-holder-finishes-a-month-of-cycling-on-a-high-note).

Doesn't look like you've provided much in the way of solid evidence on this to me.

Also, the shape and size of Australia is different among all of the Flat Earth maps (https://wiki.tfes.org/Flat_Earth_Maps). Which one are you trying to debunk?

Are you saying humans don't yet know the size of Australia?
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: DuncanDoenitz on February 19, 2021, 12:22:46 AM
Journeybeyondrail.com.au. 

The Company quotes a distance of 4352 km from Sydney (East coast) to Perth (West coast) via Adelaide on its Indian Pacific rail service.  One imagines that they know how much track they laid. 

I don't know if locomotives have odometers, but they definitely have speedometers and clocks, and have some resistance to anomalous winds. 

And as for which Flat Map is to be debunked, I think we should wait for nominations from the many that are available.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: hawke84 on February 19, 2021, 07:56:48 AM
I'm sorry, I'm a bit confused.

Is this the map? And if so, how am I supposed to read this? That there is a "top" and "bottom" half of the flat earth ?

https://wiki.tfes.org/Flat_Earth_Maps offers a lot of varying high-level sketches of the Flat-Earth.
Without at least a general concensus I'd just be checking one person's view of the Flat Earth.
I'm not sure which map to use though. And I'm unable to perform even educated guess-measurements on distances on the sketched versions of course.

From the link, the last 2 seem to make most sense in terms of layout. (Though it'd then be impossible to have a flight time of 11 hours from the US to Japan, when flying from most of Western-Europe to Japan takes the same time, sometimes more, even though that is half the distance.)

I've come to understand there is not a singular map I can look at, based on responses.
But it made me wonder, if there is no such map, how do Flat Earthers navigate the globe ? Doing a sailing trip, or flying with your personal plane long distances.

Again, if anyone can give me a more accurate map, showing at least capitals on it, I'd be grateful.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: SteelyBob on February 19, 2021, 08:41:03 AM
So first you claim to have odometer data, and now you don't have that data after all?

No, I didn't say that, did I Tom? I said:

Quote
If it wasn't, for example, about 4800km by road from Brisbane to Perth, then we would know about it because lots of people would be pointing out that their odometers bore no resemblance to the distance predicted by google, or waze, or their old-fashioned road atlas.

Now you backtrack on that and instead show a link which says that two young people cycled 4800 km in 30 days. Here is another link which says that an elderly grandfather cycled 11,616 km in 30 days (https://chvnradio.com/articles/world-record-holder-finishes-a-month-of-cycling-on-a-high-note).

I was using that as one example of a journey where people meticulously planned a journey and then lived and breathed every mile of it. If the distances were wrong, they would know about it. And that, as you well know, is merely one example of many if you cared to look. There are countless websites documenting routes, with distances and rough times, and they are all entirely coherent with the distances you get from google, or indeed any road atlas. Here's just one:
Quote
https://www.mynrma.com.au/travel/road-trips/sydney-to-perth-10-day-road-trip
Likewise, as mentioned by Duncan, all the other travel methods, such as rail, are also completely coherent.
Doesn't look like you've provided much in the way of solid evidence on this to me.

Well what do you need? What would you accept as proof of the dimensions of Australia, or North America, or anywhere? You presumably don't require first-hand experience of a country to believe that it exists, otherwise you would need to have visited everywhere yourself to verify that each country does in fact exist, so what makes you think that Australia is even vaguely shaped the way it is? All of the FE maps in the wiki have some kind of nod to Australia, with some kind of shape, but what makes you accept them as valid? You must therefore presumably accept some kind of consensus view on the subject, which then raises the question: why would you reject an overwhelming consensus on dimensions?

Also, the shape and size of Australia is different among all of the Flat Earth maps (https://wiki.tfes.org/Flat_Earth_Maps). Which one are you trying to debunk?

All of them. They are all wrong in at least one very obvious way. Take just a handful of useful rules of thumb - Australia is about 4800km across and 3600km north to south from the tip of the 'horn' of Northern Queensland down to Melbourne. Australia is also roughly the same width as mainland USA, at its widest point. So any FE map where Australia doesn't roughly match the width of the USA is obviously wrong, which immediately rules out most of the ones on the wiki. Likewise, any FE map where Australia is taller than it is wide is also obviously wrong, ruling out both of the bi-polar maps.

As an aside, if there was genuine curiosity in the FE community about the size and shape of the world, why is there a complete absence of enquiry regarding which of the competing maps is correct? You all just seem perfectly content to have a set of maps that are completely at odds with each other, despite being equipped with the tools you need to verify simple distances between known places. It's almost as if you'd rather not know...

   
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: fortytwo on February 19, 2021, 08:46:14 AM
I'm sorry, I'm a bit confused.

I was also quite confused by this topic when I came here. Here my findings so far ...

FE maps are either projections of a globe or fantasy maps. I have not seen any FE map based on distance and angle measurements. It should be quite simple (at least on land) - just measure and scale. But it seems there are a lot of obstacles preventing exact measurement. Bendy light, refractions and whatever effects lead to wrong measurements and finally to unknown or wrong distances.

Some still try to figure out a “working FE map”, others seem to accept that we just cannot know the detailed layout of earth.

The general problem is, that all known angles, areas and distances are based on a globe and the surface of a sphere cannot be flattened without distortion. If the measures fit on a globe, the cannot fit on a flat map.

If someone accepts these measures to be correct (and not faked or erroneous) he “must” accept the globe earth. I put “must” in quotes, because I have the impression that some see this differently.

If the measures are not correct, then how to check a “working map”?

For practical reasons the map answer is quite simple:
Just use google maps, bing, OSM or any printed map you like. It is already flat and it is accepted as “working”! Just imagine it is not a projection of a globe but a scale from flat earth and you are done. I bet you will not find any better solution  ;)
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: AATW on February 19, 2021, 10:40:04 AM
Also, the shape and size of Australia is different among all of the Flat Earth maps (https://wiki.tfes.org/Flat_Earth_Maps).
Why?
Different shapes and sizes for land masses only make sense if the earth is a globe (or some other non flat shape). In that case some projection between the earth's true shape and a flat map is necessary which will inevitably distort sizes, shapes or distances.

Maps are flat. If the earth is flat too then it should be possible to make a map of Australia, indeed the whole earth, which accurately depicts the reality of landmass shapes and known distances between places. Why can't you?
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: hawke84 on February 19, 2021, 11:07:59 AM
Maps are flat. If the earth is flat too then it should be possible to make a map of Australia, indeed the whole earth, which accurately depicts the reality of landmass shapes and known distances between places. Why can't you?


I'm interested in this too. If the spherical representation of the planet functions in all aspects of common day life, and there is approved-by-majority flat alternative of FE-ers, FE-ers must be using a spherical representation for everything in their daily life as well, no ? Why has nobody made an attempt to create a detailed map based on the known country-and city locations alone ? That would be my first step if I believed the world to be flat, to create a working alternative.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: SteelyBob on February 21, 2021, 03:21:44 PM
Why has nobody made an attempt to create a detailed map based on the known country-and city locations alone ? That would be my first step if I believed the world to be flat, to create a working alternative.

They probably have, but I would guess they very quickly ran into a fundamental problem. If you take a large place, like Australia, and try to draw a FE map of it on a flat piece of paper, you might get all the distances working pretty well, but you will very quickly discover that directions stop working. If you want keep places that are far apart and on a north-south relationship, for example, you will find that you can't keep them all north-south and preserve the distances between them. This is because, of course, lines of longitude get closer together as you get further south. So if you want to keep north-south relationships, and retain some kind of lat-long consistency, then you have to distort the shapes of countries to achieve that. And that, I think, is what has happened in most of the FE maps in the wiki - they seem to be trying to keep the RE lat-long system, and in so doing, everything gets distorted.

For most people, you might think, the impossibility of representing the known world on a flat map might be a cue to reconsider your understanding of the shape of it, but that does not seem to bother the FE community.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Peter Winfield on February 21, 2021, 07:10:36 PM
So you're telling me of all the hundreds of thousands of FE believers in the world today, none of them is able to draw up a detailed map ?
The reality is that there are multiple competing models, some with a long history (and arguably mainstream), some rather new and original. You can find some of them at https://wiki.tfes.org/Flat_Earth_Maps

Can any of those models draw a detailed "working" map of the Earth?
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Peter Winfield on February 21, 2021, 07:19:54 PM

Also, the shape and size of Australia is different among all of the Flat Earth maps (https://wiki.tfes.org/Flat_Earth_Maps).

Since the size and shape of Australia does not change, this means that all but one of the models is wrong.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Longtitube on February 22, 2021, 05:46:30 PM

Also, the shape and size of Australia is different among all of the Flat Earth maps (https://wiki.tfes.org/Flat_Earth_Maps).

Since the size and shape of Australia does not change, this means that all but one of the models is wrong.

You’re missing another possibility: it’s impossible for all of them to be correct but they could quite easily be all wrong.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Peter Winfield on February 25, 2021, 04:00:46 PM
The reality is that there are multiple competing models, some with a long history (and arguably mainstream), some rather new and original. You can find some of them at https://wiki.tfes.org/Flat_Earth_Maps

This is a huge problem for FE, since the RE model has one highly detailed model that is almost universally accepted. FE claims a longer history than RE but can't even agree on simple data such as the radius of the Equator or Tropics.

And those aren't models on the wiki, they are very low resolution pictures. Show an A0 300 dpi map and then we can see if it matches reality.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Pete Svarrior on February 28, 2021, 08:30:41 AM
This is a huge problem for FE
Even if your next claim is correct - why? The degree of consensus does not translate to correctness. There is more consensus on religious matters among Jews than there is among Muslims, and both of those have fewer differences than Christians. Does that make one group more correct than the other? The answer is a rather emphatic "no".

since the RE model has one highly detailed model that is almost universally accepted
This is fundamentally false. If you spend some time here actually discussing issues rather than just trying to blindly push your preferred agenda, you will notice that the vast majority of RE posters here disagree with many fundamental assumptions of the "mainstream" RE model. The difference does not lie in the level of consensus (if anything, RE'ers are less consistent when allowed to speak freely), but rather different approaches to democratised knowledge. The RE doctrine allows the excuse of "oh, yeah, none of the posters here fully endorse or understand RET, but they're not who you should be listening to!" This is a deep philosophical difference we probably won't bridge any time soon. We want thoughts to be free, you want them to be strictly supervised by people you fetishise.

Show an A0 300 dpi map and then we can see if it matches reality.
For as long as you're presupposing your preferred worldview as "reality", you're wasting your time and ours. Do what you will with your time, but please respect ours.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Peter Winfield on February 28, 2021, 09:09:22 AM
The degree of consensus does not translate to correctness. There is more consensus on religious matters among Jews than there is among Muslims, and both of those have fewer differences than Christians. Does that make one group more correct than the other? The answer is a rather emphatic "no".

This example is from religious belief rather than Science. In Science, consensus is everything.

since the RE model has one highly detailed model that is almost universally accepted
This is fundamentally false. If you spend some time here actually discussing issues rather than just trying to blindly push your preferred agenda, you will notice that the vast majority of RE posters here disagree with many fundamental assumptions of the "mainstream" RE model.

Well I haven't seen this at all, so I must be reading the wrong posts. I do have many friends whose work relies on there being an extremely accurate model of the motion of the Earth, Sun, and stars, and there has never been any mention of inconsistency with that model.

Show an A0 300 dpi map and then we can see if it matches reality.
For as long as you're presupposing your preferred worldview as "reality", you're wasting your time and ours.

Sorry, I was not clear. By "reality" I meant the things that can be tested and measured by anyone.

I did not pre-suppose anything about that flat Earth map, I simply asked for a copy so I could check it against what I can see and measure.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Elyn95 on February 28, 2021, 09:53:12 PM


Well I haven't seen this at all, so I must be reading the wrong posts. I do have many friends whose work relies on there being an extremely accurate model of the motion of the Earth, Sun, and stars, and there has never been any mention of inconsistency with that model.


Just because there hasn't been any mention of inconsistency, doesn't mean that there hasn't been! People see what they want to see and ignore data that does match their presuppositions. A working model can be designed to fit within certain parameters which then leave out margins of error. The error is ignored becuase it doesn't appear within the data and the myth is perpetuated. Can you give some more conrete examples of your friends' work?
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Peter Winfield on February 28, 2021, 10:30:07 PM
Quote
Well I haven't seen this at all, so I must be reading the wrong posts. I do have many friends whose work relies on there being an extremely accurate model of the motion of the Earth, Sun, and stars, and there has never been any mention of inconsistency with that model.

Just because there hasn't been any mention of inconsistency, doesn't mean that there hasn't been! People see what they want to see and ignore data that does match their presuppositions.

I really don't think that a few presuppositions are going to cover the fact the satellite you are using doesn't actually exist, or that a place you visited isn't really there.

If the Earth is flat it is not a minor tweak to existing models, it is a fundamental re-write. It isn't the sort of thing that can slip through without being noticed, or fudged because of existing presuppositions. FE makes fundamental claims about large areas of science; claims that have not even been properly made let alone proved.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Elyn95 on March 01, 2021, 01:00:13 PM
You still haven't given any concrete examples. And given two very unspecific examples you have cited (satellites - there are plenty of reasons these can still work in a FE model, and places that don't exist - can you name one? If you are referring the "Australia controversy" then you are buying into an anti-FE discourse that is both outdated and innacurate.)

Quote
Well I haven't seen this at all, so I must be reading the wrong posts. I do have many friends whose work relies on there being an extremely accurate model of the motion of the Earth, Sun, and stars, and there has never been any mention of inconsistency with that model.

Just because there hasn't been any mention of inconsistency, doesn't mean that there hasn't been! People see what they want to see and ignore data that does match their presuppositions.

I really don't think that a few presuppositions are going to cover the fact the satellite you are using doesn't actually exist, or that a place you visited isn't really there.

If the Earth is flat it is not a minor tweak to existing models, it is a fundamental re-write. It isn't the sort of thing that can slip through without being noticed, or fudged because of existing presuppositions. FE makes fundamental claims about large areas of science; claims that have not even been properly made let alone proved.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Peter Winfield on March 01, 2021, 02:14:45 PM
You still haven't given any concrete examples. And given two very unspecific examples you have cited (satellites - there are plenty of reasons these can still work in a FE model, and places that don't exist - can you name one?[])

This is interesting...

What FE model can accurately predict the locations of multiple satellites tracked from multiple stations throughout the Earth? Because the only way to do this is to know where those tracking stations are. And the only way to do that is to have a working map of the flat Earth, which is what this thread has been asking for but no FE supporter is able to provide.

Oh, and the place that FE claim does not exist is Antarctica. Because the South Pole is incompatible with every FE model so the South Pole and the continent around it cannot exist.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: JSS on March 01, 2021, 03:34:29 PM
You still haven't given any concrete examples. And given two very unspecific examples you have cited (satellites - there are plenty of reasons these can still work in a FE model, and places that don't exist - can you name one? If you are referring the "Australia controversy" then you are buying into an anti-FE discourse that is both outdated and innacurate.)

I'd also be interested in hearing how the FE model explains satellites, I didn't find a Wiki page on the subject.

How do they stay up there, going around in their orbits?  Can you map the route of a satellite on a Flat Earth map and explain how it travels that path?

How do GPS satellites stay up at their operational altitude of 20,000km and move at 14,000km/hour in a Flat Earth model?
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Tron on March 01, 2021, 06:16:53 PM
Its my understanding that the earth spins and churns the atmosphere above it and satellites rotate in this stream.   Occasionally they will fire up there engines so as not fall back into the thick atmosphere. 

 
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: RonJ on March 01, 2021, 06:27:37 PM
Well, if the earth is accelerating upwards at a constant rate, then any satellites above the earth would have to run their engines continuously to keep a constant distance above the surface.  That scenario is untenable under FET because any satellite would quickly run out of fuel and couldn't stay up there for years & years like is happening now.  It would be helpful if you revised your 'understanding'.     
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: stack on March 01, 2021, 06:59:57 PM
Its my understanding that the earth spins and churns the atmosphere above it and satellites rotate in this stream.   Occasionally they will fire up there engines so as not fall back into the thick atmosphere.

What part of the atmosphere are satellites in? And what about geostationary ones versus non?
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Tron on March 01, 2021, 08:05:35 PM
Stack, good questions.  Satellites range from 2,000km to 40,000km above earth.  70k km is the record.  They travel more quickly closer to earth (about 90 min orbits) and go up to 24 hour orbits around 35k km which is the Geo-Stationary satellites you talked about.

On a flat earth, I imagine it looks something like this.
  (https://i.ibb.co/SRRX8W0/IMG-20210301-140434-e-compress43.jpg)

Satellites seem to orbit around the sun on a FE Map.  See the official NASA photos of satellite orbits and the Altitude versus speed graph of satellites.

What propels a satellite to circle so fast in Low Earth Orbit is beyond me right now.  Any ideas? 


Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: stack on March 01, 2021, 08:20:20 PM
Stack, good questions.  Satellites range from 2,000km to 40,000km above earth.  70k km is the record.  They travel more quickly closer to earth (about 90 min orbits) and go up to 24 hour orbits around 35k km which is the Geo-Stationary satellites you talked about.

On a flat earth, I imagine it looks something like this.
  (https://i.ibb.co/SRRX8W0/IMG-20210301-140434-e-compress43.jpg)

Satellites seem to orbit around the sun on a FE Map.  See the official NASA photos of satellite orbits and the Altitude versus speed graph of satellites.

What propels a satellite to circle so fast in Low Earth Orbit is beyond me right now.  Any ideas?

How did you arrive at satellites orbit the sun on a flat earth? On your graphic, for where the sun is at that moment, does all of Europe and Asia loose satellite coverage? Especially during their rotation when they are way over on the left side. That would mean massive outages occur all over the disc all the time for different huge regions. That doesn't happen. Again, reality check.

As well, you'r not addressing geostationary satellites. On a flat earth, they would just sit there, hover, over one location. How might that "hovering" be achieved?

What's this 35k you're talking about and where did it come from?

(And hey, congrats, you learned how to post images properly. Well done.)

Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: RonJ on March 01, 2021, 09:00:29 PM
The INMARSAT satellites are a bit more than 35k KM above the earth's equator in geo-stationary orbit.  I personally have plenty of experience using these 'birds' for communications on the ships I worked on.  The biggest problem with this under FET is that these satellites should be continuously available at all times about anywhere on the earth.  On an actual basis, this is NOT a fact.  When we were on a long haul passage between Asia and Europe or the USA I would have to switch to a different satellite a time or two because as we progressed Easterly or Westerly the satellites would go below the earth's horizon even though they were up in the sky about 35k KM.  This fact was easily observable on my computer screen because I could see the elevation and azimuth data on the dish's gimble mount changing.  As we progressed the dish would aim closer & closer to the horizon and the signal would get too weak to transfer data at a reasonable rate.  At that point I would tell the system to aim at a closer satellite that was ahead of us and rising in the sky. The data rates went up and I could upload & download emails & other traffic to the office to keep everyone happy.  I know that the distance to the satellites were about right because it was easy to 'ping' the 'bird' and you could see the delay times.  These delay times would correspond to the expected distances very closely.  Later on we also started to use a different company that had higher speed data but the problems were the same and I had to also switch satellites from time to time to maintain communications.  In this case this scenario disproves the flat earth and firmly proves the globe earth.  No one has ever been able to come up with an acceptable flat earth explanation for what I had to deal with every day while working.     
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Tron on March 01, 2021, 09:17:38 PM
Quote from: stack
[/quote

Thanks Stack..  I appreciate your input on the matter.

I arrived at this picture by plotting the location of the satellites as shown by attached picture.  The satellite goes through north America, under south Africa and Australia then returns for another loop a bit farther away.

If the satellite was way left of the map, you have a fair point about outages.  I'd have to reference my version of things and how I feel the sun is actually centered over Antarctica and the earth tilts towards the sun near the equator, so essentially, if your looking down, all sides of the earth should be underneath the circular path of satellites.  This assumes satellites gain altitude at night, but that's another topic.

Geostationary satellites would just have to rotate the same rate as earth.  About 3 is enough to cover all the landmass.

Again, im not super positive how satellites stay in orbit or what propels them.  It may be similar to planetary orbits.

The 35k altitude just shows up when you Google it.




Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Tron on March 01, 2021, 09:35:37 PM
Ron your saying that you had to switch Geo Stationary satellites because you moved to far away from some and was lost beyond the horizon?  On a Flat Map, it follows the same fundamentals as a sunset I think.  The farther you move away from it, it appears to sink and dip beyond the horizon...  Signal loss might be a function of distance and atmospheric interference.

Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: stack on March 01, 2021, 09:36:17 PM

Thanks Stack..  I appreciate your input on the matter.

I arrived at this picture by plotting the location of the satellites as shown by attached picture.  The satellite goes through north America, under south Africa and Australia then returns for another loop a bit farther away.

If the satellite was way left of the map, you have a fair point about outages.  I'd have to reference my version of things and how I feel the sun is actually centered over Antarctica and the earth tilts towards the sun near the equator, so essentially, if your looking down, all sides of the earth should be underneath the circular path of satellites.  This assumes satellites gain altitude at night, but that's another topic.

Geostationary satellites would just have to rotate the same rate as earth.  About 3 is enough to cover all the landmass.

Again, im not super positive how satellites stay in orbit or what propels them.  It may be similar to planetary orbits.

The 35k altitude just shows up when you Google it.

Here again we run headlong right into reality. You having a notion that the sun is centered over Antartica doesn't even come close to what is observed reality by billions of people every day for, well for forever, regardless of the shape of the earth or maps or whatever. So what is compelling you to say that when you can literally go outside yourself and look up and see where the sun is?

As well, there are 402 geosynchronous satellites, not just 3. You can track them if you want.

Are these just all thought experiments? Sort of "what ifs" just for fun?
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Tron on March 01, 2021, 10:30:43 PM
Stack, its not an original idea.  In the RE model the sun is perpendicular to the equator, but the earth tilts forward and back during the year.   That's what I'm saying.  Except in a flat earth, you can tilt the earth towards the sun so it hovers above the same area and then tilt it again with the changing seasons.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: stack on March 01, 2021, 10:36:57 PM
Stack, its not an original idea.  In the RE model the sun is perpendicular to the equator, but the earth tilts forward and back during the year.   That's what I'm saying.  Except in a flat earth, you can tilt the earth towards the sun so it hovers above the same area and then tilt it again with the changing seasons.

Woah, wait a minute, I somehow missed that. The flat earth tilts? In what manner, as in what is the tilting orientation? How often does it happen? How much does it tilt? What causes it to tilt? How does it know when to tilt?
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Tron on March 01, 2021, 11:23:41 PM
Lol, I had a few threads about this, but in short, it tilts towards the sun so it's centered above the equator.  It then wobbles slowly back and forth every year to give you change of seasons.  It also spins once every 24 hours but nobody likes that idea, lol.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: AATW on March 01, 2021, 11:33:59 PM
since the RE model has one highly detailed model that is almost universally accepted
This is fundamentally false. If you spend some time here actually discussing issues rather than just trying to blindly push your preferred agenda, you will notice that the vast majority of RE posters here disagree with many fundamental assumptions of the "mainstream" RE model. The difference does not lie in the level of consensus (if anything, RE'ers are less consistent when allowed to speak freely), but rather different approaches to democratised knowledge. The RE doctrine allows the excuse of "oh, yeah, none of the posters here fully endorse or understand RET, but they're not who you should be listening to!" This is a deep philosophical difference we probably won't bridge any time soon. We want thoughts to be free, you want them to be strictly supervised by people you fetishise.

It's not about fetishising anyone. It's simply recognising that not everyone has the same abilities or experience.
You do know this, of course. If your car doesn't work then who you gonna call? Not the Ghostbusters, obviously. You'd call a mechanic.
If you're ill you'd go to a doctor. You recognise that people are experts in certain fields and are the best people to ask to help you with certain problems.

Of course everyone has the right to an opinion, but you know that not everyone's opinion is equally valid.
So yeah, if you want to know what mainstream scientific theories are then maybe ask a scientist or read a book written by one, rather than looking at what some bloke on the internet (like me) has to say. I think I understand scientific theories better than most, but I wouldn't claim to be an expert by any means.

And of course there are debates within the scientific community, but not about, say, the shape of the earth or the shape of landmasses or how far apart they are. This stuff is known, it IS universally accepted and there are multiple technologies which rely on these things.

Now, I've just said you wouldn't necessarily expect complete agreement on science amongst a load of internet RE randoms but I'm expecting some amongst a load of internet FE randoms. Isn't that unfair? I don't think so, because you are the guys who are claiming to have discovered new theories which would revolutionise our understanding of reality. If you want to be taken seriously you should have some vaguely coherent model. The fact there isn't any working FE map which matches flight routes and times is pretty damning.

Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: stack on March 02, 2021, 12:37:03 AM
Lol, I had a few threads about this, but in short, it tilts towards the sun so it's centered above the equator.  It then wobbles slowly back and forth every year to give you change of seasons.  It also spins once every 24 hours but nobody likes that idea, lol.

Ok, well good luck with all that. From what I've seen across the wider than just here FE community, putting the earth in any sort of motion is lunacy. And if you even mentioned to those folks that it "rotates", my goodness, they would come after you with pitchforks and torches. Hyperbole, of course, but yeah, they don't take too kindly to an in motion earth of any kind.

What causes it to wobble and spin? How often does it wobble?

And you have a problem with your "idea". If it wobbles (tilts) periodically and spins every 24 hours, everyone on the planet would experience all four season everyday. That would be something, wouldn't it? Snow in the wee hours, flowers bloom in the morning, Summer heat in the afternoon, leaves tuning brown in the evening.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Tron on March 02, 2021, 01:27:52 AM
The Earth is like a Frisbee flying through space.  It tilts, spins, and wobbles.  Think of a gyroscope and its gentle rotation.  If it rotates once a year then you seasons remain intact.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: stack on March 02, 2021, 01:45:02 AM
The Earth is like a Frisbee flying through space.  It tilts, spins, and wobbles.  Think of a gyroscope and its gentle rotation.  If it rotates once a year then you seasons remain intact.

I got the concept, but you didn't answer any of the questions. Chief among them, how do you not have all 4 seasons everyday everywhere on earth? Rotation causes your day/night cycle, your tilt/wobble, whatever it is, causes your seasons. Your 24 hour rotation would rotate all parts of the earth closer and further from the sun giving everyone 4 seasons in 24 hours. Get it?
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: RonJ on March 02, 2021, 02:33:22 AM
Ron your saying that you had to switch Geo Stationary satellites because you moved to far away from some and was lost beyond the horizon?  On a Flat Map, it follows the same fundamentals as a sunset I think.  The farther you move away from it, it appears to sink and dip beyond the horizon...  Signal loss might be a function of distance and atmospheric interference.
The geosynchronous satellites I'm referring to are all located above the earth's equator.  Find a round table somewhere and a small marble.  Now imagine that you are a small ant on top of the table.  Place the marble well above a pseudo equator that you would draw on the flat table, now why couldn't an ant see that marble from anywhere on that table?  Image now that there are now 4 separate satellites equally separated and well above that equator line on the table.  It's easy to see that on a flat table any ant could see all four satellites.  The example of the Sun being visible only half the time just isn't viable.  What if there were 4 suns?  Wouldn't you see more than 1 Sun all of the time?  Besides the Sun argument is based upon the EA equation that is incomplete so has to be disregarded.  Now if you take those same marbles and place them above a globe you can easily see why the satellites would have to be changed as often as they do.  All the antenna elevation angles also match a globe earth.  It's just that simple.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Peter Winfield on March 02, 2021, 06:59:16 AM
The Earth is like a Frisbee flying through space.  It tilts, spins, and wobbles.  Think of a gyroscope and its gentle rotation.  If it rotates once a year then you seasons remain intact.

It's an interesting idea, but the question remains: Where is the working model of (this version of) the flat Earth?
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Tron on March 02, 2021, 11:56:52 AM
[quote Your 24 hour rotation would rotate all parts of the earth closer and further from the sun giving everyone 4 seasons in 24 hours. Get it?
[/quote]

 Stack I see your point, but it's not really true.  You can spin a Frisbee on your finger once every 24 hours and also have it slowly rotate over 1 year without it shaking - If your Chuck Norris.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Tron on March 02, 2021, 12:04:44 PM
[quote author=RonJ Now if you take those same marbles and place them above a globe you can easily see why the satellites would have to be changed as often as they do.  All the antenna elevation angles also match a globe earth.  It's just that simple.
[/quote]

Ron its still to far to use only 1 geosynchronous satellite if your moving on earth.  You might be able to use 3 or 4 going around the earth like your suggesting.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Tron on March 02, 2021, 12:07:34 PM
The Earth is like a Frisbee flying through space.  It tilts, spins, and wobbles.  Think of a gyroscope and its gentle rotation.  If it rotates once a year then you seasons remain intact.

It's an interesting idea, but the question remains: Where is the working model of (this version of) the flat Earth?

Its still a relatively new Theory.  It started about 4 years ago on this Forum. 
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: stack on March 02, 2021, 01:58:36 PM
Quote
Your 24 hour rotation would rotate all parts of the earth closer and further from the sun giving everyone 4 seasons in 24 hours. Get it?

Stack I see your point, but it's not really true.  You can spin a Frisbee on your finger once every 24 hours and also have it slowly rotate over 1 year without it shaking - If your Chuck Norris.

Maybe I'm not as clear as I thought on your concept. The earth spins every 24 hours like a frisbee on your finger. What's the slow rotation over a year? How does a frisbee both spin and rotate if they are not the same thing? I don't get what you're saying.

You mentioned the theory is new, from 4 years ago here. Where here? Can you point to some 4 year old posts about it?
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: RonJ on March 02, 2021, 03:28:37 PM
[quote author=RonJ Now if you take those same marbles and place them above a globe you can easily see why the satellites would have to be changed as often as they do.  All the antenna elevation angles also match a globe earth.  It's just that simple.

Ron its still to far to use only 1 geosynchronous satellite if your moving on earth.  You might be able to use 3 or 4 going around the earth like your suggesting.
Not quite!  Think about it this way.  On the earth you only have daylight and darkness.  On a flat earth all this is generated by 1 rotating Sun. If you had a second Sun to light up the areas not covered by the first Sun you could have continuous daylight.  The way microwaves work is if you can see it you can communicate with it.  On a flat earth you could just have 2 satellites and cover the whole earth.  In the real world that doesn't really work, you need 4, minimum.  That's because the earth isn't flat.  On a globe, a satellite can go out of sight because it's being hidden by the earth's curvature. It's just that simple.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Tron on March 02, 2021, 03:37:50 PM
If chuck balances a pizza on his finger, and then has it rotate once every 24 hours, that's really slow.  It looks stationary.

Now, if he's up to it, he can also twist his wrist ever so slightly and try to move the pizza in a circular way so it wobbles (not spins). 

I'm not sure how to answer your second question.  I joined three years ago and started to contribute and build some ideas.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: stack on March 02, 2021, 04:14:01 PM
If chuck balances a pizza on his finger, and then has it rotate once every 24 hours, that's really slow.  It looks stationary.

Sure.

Now, if he's up to it, he can also twist his wrist ever so slightly and try to move the pizza in a circular way so it wobbles (not spins). 

Ok, I guess. I still don't know exactly what you mean. Do you have a diagram? Your words aren't making sense. Does the "Chuck Norris wobble" make the seasons?

And I still don't see how you can explain not having all four season in a 24 hour period. Can you succinctly explain that?
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Pete Svarrior on March 02, 2021, 05:22:12 PM
This example is from religious belief rather than Science. In Science, consensus is everything.
If your belief system (not actually representative of science, but perhaps that's where the capital "S" comes into play?) relies more on consensus than it does on verifiability, then our differences are even more severe than I originally suspected. I'm simply not going to be able to help you with that. You're pursuing something else than we are.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: AATW on March 02, 2021, 05:46:45 PM
This example is from religious belief rather than Science. In Science, consensus is everything.
If your belief system (not actually representative of science, but perhaps that's where the capital "S" comes into play?) relies more on consensus than it does on verifiability, then our differences are even more severe than I originally suspected. I'm simply not going to be able to help you with that. You're pursuing something else than we are.
Surely consensus follows on from verifiability.
That's what publishing results and peer review is about
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Peter Winfield on March 02, 2021, 05:49:32 PM
Surely consensus follows on from verifiability.
That's what publishing results and peer review is about

Thank you, just want I was about to write (but in a lot more words!).
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Iceman on March 02, 2021, 05:51:58 PM
Consensus is, in many ways, a detriment to progress. People get overly satisfied with the status quo and stop asking questions. Status quo is built on the best available data and information at a given time, but there is and always will be room to improve.

All our most famous scientists are the ones who broke through the established consensus.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Peter Winfield on March 02, 2021, 05:57:36 PM
You're pursuing something else than we are.

I am pursuing accurate, detailed mathematical models of a flat Earth that can be verified by observation. The starting point has to be a working map of the Earth, because geographic and celestial observations depend on location, and without a map you can't specify a location.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Pete Svarrior on March 02, 2021, 06:08:41 PM
Surely consensus follows on from verifiability.
Yes, in an idealised world it might. Sadly, we live on Earth, regardless of its shape.

The starting point has to be a working map of the Earth
Even if I pretend not to see your conceit: we simply disagree. There is honestly not much more to say about that.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Peter Winfield on March 02, 2021, 06:12:30 PM
Consensus is, in many ways, a detriment to progress. People get overly satisfied with the status quo and stop asking questions. Status quo is built on the best available data and information at a given time, but there is and always will be room to improve.

All our most famous scientists are the ones who broke through the established consensus.

This probably belongs in the "philosophy" section but, yes, there is a tension between building on consensus and challenging it. The "Shoulders of Giants" vs. "breaking the mould".

But I would argue that many, if not most, famous scientists brought consensus rather than challenging it. They resolve debates rather than challenging dogma.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Peter Winfield on March 02, 2021, 06:19:21 PM
The starting point has to be a working map of the Earth
Even if I pretend not to see your conceit: we simply disagree. There is honestly not much more to say about that.

I explained my reasoning for thinking that a map is necessary, so perhaps you could address that? That is, after all, the topic of this thread.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Iceman on March 02, 2021, 06:24:15 PM
As an active researcher I work to refine and improve on the consensus view. Thinking of consensus as a fixed body of knowledge is, in itself, a problem. It is in a constant state of evolution as new data and information is added that continually shifts and re-molds it, until such a point when new data is too overwhelming to be added in to the current status quo and it needs to be rebuilt.

Newton stood on the shoulders of giants. Galileo and Copernicus smashed the consensus. Einstein changed our entire worldview. Hutton, Darwin, Agassiz and Wilson changed the way we look at the earth and its inhabitants. We're currently working on standing on their shoulders to improve the understanding they brought about with their complete paradigm shifts.

If an FE map provides a better explanation for observed natural phenomena than the globe model, we would collectively say goodbye to the globe. That's not quite on the horizon just yet though...
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Pete Svarrior on March 02, 2021, 09:55:55 PM
I explained my reasoning for thinking that a map is necessary, so perhaps you could address that?
I tried. That's how we got to the point of you ditching the scientific method in favour of your personal flavour of consensus fanaticism. (This, by the way, beautifully illustrates what RE'ers do all the time. Declare the wonderful and rock-solid consensus, only to immediately ditch it in favour of opinions that clash with it.)

As I said: there is honestly not much more to say about that. A somewhat natural consequence of there not being much left to say is that I won't be able to say much more.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: stevecanuck on March 03, 2021, 11:50:48 PM
There are anomalous winds in the southern hemisphere - https://wiki.tfes.org/Issues_in_Flight_Analysis

If you are going to try to use travel times to show evidence for a particular model, you need to do better than provide information from an area known to be anomalous.

I used road journeys in my example Tom. The wind doesn't affect them. And I didn't say 'times', I said 'distances'. As in: 'what people measure using their car odometers', for example.

We drove from Perth to Darwin, and the distances predicted by google maps, which is based on RE projections, were bang on. Same with Cairns to Melbourne via Sydney.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: JSS on March 04, 2021, 12:21:40 AM
We drove from Perth to Darwin, and the distances predicted by google maps, which is based on RE projections, was bang on. Same with Cairns to Melbourne via Sydney.

I've driven from coast to coast across the Unites States multiple times.  From Canada to the Pacific  ocean and all the distances were exactly as advertised.  Other countries as well.

I just can't see any evidence that we don't know exactly how big the continents are and what their shape is, and where they are in relation to each other.  We know these things extremely well.

Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 04, 2021, 12:31:50 AM
JSS: "I drove all across the US multiple times, so I can verify the distances in miles for all surveying projects are correct"

No wonder people question your integrity.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: stevecanuck on March 04, 2021, 03:02:24 AM
We drove from Perth to Darwin, and the distances predicted by google maps, which is based on RE projections, was bang on. Same with Cairns to Melbourne via Sydney.

I've driven from coast to coast across the Unites States multiple times.  From Canada to the Pacific  ocean and all the distances were exactly as advertised.  Other countries as well.

I just can't see any evidence that we don't know exactly how big the continents are and what their shape is, and where they are in relation to each other.  We know these things extremely well.

There are also all the infrastructure items such as cable, rail, roads, and pipelines to consider. The amount/length of material needed is a direct function of how much distance needs to be covered. To not recognize that is beyond unreasonable.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: AATW on March 04, 2021, 07:05:46 AM
JSS: "I drove all across the US multiple times, so I can verify the distances in miles for all surveying projects are correct"

No wonder people question your integrity.
Tom: “I have no expertise in surveying, cartography, shipping or aviation but I will claim without basis that any distances which don’t match FE are wrong or unknown”

And that isn’t a straw man, you literally claimed on here that the distance between Paris and New York is “unknown” which must come as a surprise to the pilots who travel the route daily and always find the cities exactly where they expect them to be.

No wonder people question yours...
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: JSS on March 04, 2021, 12:17:23 PM
JSS: "I drove all across the US multiple times, so I can verify the distances in miles for all surveying projects are correct"

No wonder people question your integrity.

You seem to have completely misunderstood what I said, you should read it again more carefully until you understand my point. You sound very confused.

If you would like to provide a counterexample of where you drove a route that should be 1,000 miles and it was off by hundreds of miles, please do so.  I'm sure we would all be very curious to hear where your direct, personal experience of how map distances are wrong from your travels, and we could then verify your claim.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Elyn95 on March 09, 2021, 08:54:37 PM
It is perfectly possible for Antarctica, the continent, to exist in a FE model. In fact if you bothered to read the wiki, there are plenty of articles dedicated to precisly the field of research. The South Pole can not exist in a FE model, nor does it need to to sustain its arguements.

Satellite tracking stations could function on a FE model, but have you ever been inside one?

You still haven't given any concrete examples. And given two very unspecific examples you have cited (satellites - there are plenty of reasons these can still work in a FE model, and places that don't exist - can you name one?[])

This is interesting...

What FE model can accurately predict the locations of multiple satellites tracked from multiple stations throughout the Earth? Because the only way to do this is to know where those tracking stations are. And the only way to do that is to have a working map of the flat Earth, which is what this thread has been asking for but no FE supporter is able to provide.

Oh, and the place that FE claim does not exist is Antarctica. Because the South Pole is incompatible with every FE model so the South Pole and the continent around it cannot exist.
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: stack on March 09, 2021, 09:11:20 PM
It is perfectly possible for Antarctica, the continent, to exist in a FE model. In fact if you bothered to read the wiki, there are plenty of articles dedicated to precisly the field of research.

I have read the wiki. What are these articles you are referring to? I couldn't find them.

The South Pole can not exist in a FE model, nor does it need to to sustain its arguements.

Why can't the South Pole exist?
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Elyn95 on March 09, 2021, 10:13:38 PM

[/quote]

I have read the wiki. What are these articles you are referring to? I couldn't find them.

[/quote]

https://wiki.tfes.org/Antarctica



Why can't the South Pole exist?
[/quote]

In a monopole model (the model I personally give most credence to) the south pole does not exist. But yes, if you subscribe to the bi-polar models then you can have two poles, but I see that model as being rather more problematic.


Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Elyn95 on March 09, 2021, 10:17:05 PM
Also

https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Ice_Wall (https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Ice_Wall)
Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: stack on March 10, 2021, 12:10:45 AM


I have read the wiki. What are these articles you are referring to? I couldn't find them.

[/quote]

https://wiki.tfes.org/Antarctica
[/quote]

I've read those two many times. If you consider those two wiki entries as "plenty of articles dedicated to precisly the field of research", then apparently we have a very different definition of "plenty" and "research".

BTW, use the proper code to quote, like this:

It is perfectly possible for Antarctica, the continent, to exist in a FE model. In fact if you bothered to read the wiki, there are plenty of articles dedicated to precisly the field of research.

I have read the wiki. What are these articles you are referring to? I couldn't find them.

Why can't the South Pole exist?

In a monopole model (the model I personally give most credence to) the south pole does not exist. But yes, if you subscribe to the bi-polar models then you can have two poles, but I see that model as being rather more problematic.
[/quote]

Both are quite problematic, each with their own issues. Issues that are worth working through, I just personally haven't seen any outcomes that mirror navigational reality as well as some other more cosmically related elements.



Title: Re: A working map of the Flat Earth
Post by: Iceman on March 10, 2021, 12:29:26 AM
Also

https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Ice_Wall (https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Ice_Wall)

This page on the wiki contains insufficient references to be of any real value. The aerial footage is (stolen footage) from a research group that does work across the Antarctic continent. The data that collates all the information on the coastline characteristics is from a review paper that summarizes the state of all science conducted across antarctica, but the wiki article chooses to only include information on the coastline, while ignoring the thousands of line-km of geophysical data, which is inherently trusted, given that the table in the wiki article uses that data (the information on floating vs grounded ice shelf/wall margin).

For the FE view on the ice wall to be true, there needs to be evidence that decades of internationally-led research across myuple disciplines spanning huge areas of the continent has been faked.

See data and refs from my signature links...