George

Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1560 on: October 26, 2016, 07:12:36 PM »
The only evidence is a tape of Trump trying to sound alpha around his buddies.

This wasn't a private conversation among friends.  He was bragging to a bus full of strangers, or at least people he only had a passing professional relationship with:

Quote
"We'll tell you all of the logistics so you understand the context," Morales said. "There were seven other people on the bus with Mr. Trump and Billy Bush at the time. They were with a two-person camera crew, the bus driver, an 'Access Hollywood' producer, a production assistant, Mr. Trump's security guard and his PR person. Upon arriving at our NBC lot our camera crew was let off the bus so they could record Mr. Trump getting off and meeting the soap opera star."

A minor point, but I'm sick of the narrative of that this was just normal male bonding, something that all men do, not at all unusual when bros are chilling, etc.

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Offline Snupes

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1561 on: October 27, 2016, 12:23:53 AM »
I either have to believe Trump's an anomaly and a creep, or be terrified of the idea that all guys just talk about groping and assaulting women and trying to sleep with taken women and just generally sound rapey among friends. I really like to believe my male friends aren't such creeps.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1562 on: October 27, 2016, 12:38:25 AM »
The only evidence is a tape of Trump trying to sound alpha around his buddies.

This wasn't a private conversation among friends.  He was bragging to a bus full of strangers, or at least people he only had a passing professional relationship with:

Quote
"We'll tell you all of the logistics so you understand the context," Morales said. "There were seven other people on the bus with Mr. Trump and Billy Bush at the time. They were with a two-person camera crew, the bus driver, an 'Access Hollywood' producer, a production assistant, Mr. Trump's security guard and his PR person. Upon arriving at our NBC lot our camera crew was let off the bus so they could record Mr. Trump getting off and meeting the soap opera star."

A minor point, but I'm sick of the narrative of that this was just normal male bonding, something that all men do, not at all unusual when bros are chilling, etc.

It's not at all unusual, though, and that is the primary reason why this tape wasn't the groundbreaking campaign dagger that the Democrats had hoped it would be. Private alpha-bragging isn't some new phenomenon that totally doesn't happen.

Unfortunately on that tape he is describing actions that other women have also described before the tapes were even released. Jill Harth, for one, made her allegations in 1997 of Trump fondling her private parts, and she stood by that story in July of this year, months before the Billy Bush tape came out.

And without a proper conviction it's just as believable as the "Bill Clinton is a rapist" meme.


Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1563 on: October 27, 2016, 02:48:01 AM »
And without a proper conviction it's just as believable as the "Bill Clinton is a rapist" meme.

Well, I mean, Bill Clinton isn't on tape talking about how he did actually rape someone, though.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1564 on: October 27, 2016, 07:27:49 PM »
And without a proper conviction it's just as believable as the "Bill Clinton is a rapist" meme.

Well, I mean, Bill Clinton isn't on tape talking about how he did actually rape someone, though.

No one mentioned is this thread is on tape saying they raped someone.

Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1565 on: October 27, 2016, 07:29:53 PM »

George

Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1566 on: October 27, 2016, 09:04:18 PM »
And without a proper conviction it's just as believable as the "Bill Clinton is a rapist" meme.

Well, I mean, Bill Clinton isn't on tape talking about how he did actually rape someone, though.

No one mentioned is this thread is on tape saying they raped someone.

Don't be dense.  You know perfectly well he's only talking about rape because it's the example you gave.  Trump is on tape talking about groping women, and that's what he's been accused of doing.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1567 on: October 27, 2016, 09:12:46 PM »
Trump is on tape talking about groping women
Not without consent. On the same tape, he states that they let him do it.

Being obscene is one thing, being a criminal is another. Let's keep them separate.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1568 on: October 27, 2016, 09:34:21 PM »
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/inside-the-trump-bunker-with-12-days-to-go/ar-AAjsUji

Interesting article.

It makes me think that Trump just wants the attention, win or lose.  Maybe they're right, he will have his own news network.  And he'll have alot of info on people who will watch.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1569 on: October 27, 2016, 09:45:13 PM »
I either have to believe Trump's an anomaly and a creep, or be terrified of the idea that all guys just talk about groping and assaulting women and trying to sleep with taken women and just generally sound rapey among friends. I really like to believe my male friends aren't such creeps.

What Trump said is like PG compared to how most guys talk among their friends.

Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1570 on: October 27, 2016, 11:17:13 PM »
Trump is on tape talking about groping women
Not without consent. On the same tape, he states that they let him do it.

Being obscene is one thing, being a criminal is another. Let's keep them separate.

He did say he does it without consent though (emphasis mine).

Quote
I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything.

So he admits he does not wait, he just gropes women. So in a quite literal sense, no, they aren't consenting. He hasn't given them the chance. And in most situations, there's a huge power imbalance there. He's rich and powerful, the women he allegedly gropes usually aren't. It's the same as if a boss groped an employee. What you're arguing is that, as long as the employee doesn't resist, that constitutes consent. I don't believe that is the case at all, especially in such a lopsided power dynamic. And that's ignoring the women who have come forward to claim just the opposite—that he did grope them without their consent.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2016, 11:20:35 PM by trekky0623 »

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1571 on: October 28, 2016, 08:54:34 AM »
Holy interpretation, Batman. Trump is still a living human being. You can't just write a book report on what the author may have meant.

The same goes for me. I suggested none of these things, but here you go loudly proclaiming what I did and didn't think. It reeks of desperation.

And yes, it does go against these women's claims. Our society necessarily relies on the presumption of innocence1. Abandoning it because you violently disagree with a politician sets an abysmal precedent, and in this case reflects on you much more than on either Trump or Clinton. If it's convenient, we don't need evidence, right? haha politics everyone



1 - this goes both ways. Until good evidence has been presented to determine either way, both Trump's claims that the women are lying and the women's claim that Trump sexually violated them are entirely null and void.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2016, 08:59:42 AM by SexWarrior »
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1572 on: October 28, 2016, 09:33:25 AM »
Holy interpretation, Batman. Trump is still a living human being. You can't just write a book report on what the author may have meant.

The same goes for me. I suggested none of these things, but here you go loudly proclaiming what I did and didn't think. It reeks of desperation.

And yes, it does go against these women's claims. Our society necessarily relies on the presumption of innocence1. Abandoning it because you violently disagree with a politician sets an abysmal precedent, and in this case reflects on you much more than on either Trump or Clinton. If it's convenient, we don't need evidence, right? haha politics everyone



1 - this goes both ways. Until good evidence has been presented to determine either way, both Trump's claims that the women are lying and the women's claim that Trump sexually violated them are entirely null and void.

You are correct.  Please educate the rest of the Trump supporters about that.  I'm tired of having Trump and his followers say that Hillary should be in Jail without so much as a trial. 

"She's guilty and a crook and has people murdered."
Great, I say.  You should bring it to the justice department so they can make a case.
Oh they look at it?  And found nothing worth going to trial for?

Well...
Innocent until proven guilty, right?
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1573 on: October 28, 2016, 10:02:21 AM »
You are correct.  Please educate the rest of the Trump supporters about that.  I'm tired of having Trump and his followers say that Hillary should be in Jail without so much as a trial. 
Hey, I'm no Trump fan (I think he might be a tiny bit less shit than Hillary, but I don't envy anyone who actually needs to make that choice). I'm still salty about my "let's get a moderate Republican in" idea going to shit.

As I said, the problem lies on both sides. Judge Hillary on her abysmal record as a stateswoman and policy proposals, not on unproven allegations.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2016, 10:11:04 AM by SexWarrior »
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1574 on: October 28, 2016, 10:55:46 AM »
Our society necessarily relies on the presumption of innocence1. Abandoning it because you violently disagree with a politician sets an abysmal precedent, and in this case reflects on you much more than on either Trump or Clinton.

I'm not calling for Trump to be punished for alleged crimes, or even saying that he is guilty of them. I am speculating about the evidence, though, and saying that, yeah, he probably did grope at least some women without their consent if he admittedly is going around and grabbing them by the crotch without asking. If I can speculate about whether or not Adnan on Serial is a murderer or not and debate that, I don't see why I can't do the exact same thing with Trump just because the allegations are about sexual assault instead of murder. The presumption of innocence is not under attack here.

Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1575 on: October 28, 2016, 12:30:01 PM »
To the citizens of the United States of America from Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II

In light of your immediate failure to financially manage yourselves and also in recent years your tendency to elect incompetent Presidents of the USA and therefore not able to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your independence, effective immediately. (You should look up 'revocation' in the Oxford English Dictionary.)

Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchical duties over all states, commonwealths, and territories (except Kansas, which she does not fancy).

Your new Prime Minister, Theresa May, will appoint a Governor for America without the need for further elections.

Congress and the Senate will be disbanded. A questionnaire may be circulated sometime next year to determine whether any of you noticed.

To aid in the transition to a British Crown dependency, the following rules are introduced with immediate effect:

1. The letter 'U' will be reinstated in words such as 'colour,' 'favour,' 'labour' and 'neighbour.' Likewise, you will learn to spell 'doughnut' without skipping half the letters, and the suffix '-ize' will be replaced by the suffix '-ise.' Generally, you will be expected to raise your vocabulary to acceptable levels. (look up 'vocabulary').

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2. Using the same twenty-seven words interspersed with filler noises such as ''like' and 'you know' is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication. There is no such thing as U.S. English. We will let Microsoft know on your behalf. The Microsoft spell-checker will be adjusted to take into account the reinstated letter 'u'' and the elimination of '-ize.'

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3. July 4th will no longer be celebrated as a holiday.

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4. You will learn to resolve personal issues without using guns, lawyers, or therapists. The fact that you need so many lawyers and therapists shows that you're not quite ready to be independent. Guns should only be used for shooting grouse. If you can't sort things out without suing someone or speaking to a therapist, then you're not ready to shoot grouse.

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5. Therefore, you will no longer be allowed to own or carry anything more dangerous than a vegetable peeler. Although a permit will be required if you wish to carry a vegetable peeler in public.

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6. All intersections will be replaced with roundabouts, and you will start driving on the left side with immediate effect. At the same time, you will go metric with immediate effect and without the benefit of conversion tables. Both roundabouts and metrication will help you understand the British sense of humour.

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7. The former USA will adopt UK prices on petrol (which you have been calling gasoline) of roughly $10/US gallon. Get used to it.

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8. You will learn to make real chips. Those things you call French fries are not real chips, and those things you insist on calling potato chips are properly called crisps. Real chips are thick cut, fried in animal fat, and dressed not with catsup but with vinegar.

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9. The cold, tasteless stuff you insist on calling beer is not actually beer at all. Henceforth, only proper British Bitter will be referred to as beer, and European brews of known and accepted provenance will be referred to as Lager. New Zealand beer is also acceptable, as New Zealand is pound for pound the greatest sporting nation on earth and it can only be due to the beer. They are also part of the British Commonwealth - see what it did for them. American brands will be referred to as Near-Frozen Gnat's Urine, so that all can be sold without risk of further confusion.

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10. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as good guys. Hollywood will also be required to cast English actors to play English characters. Watching Andie Macdowell attempt English dialogue in Four Weddings and a Funeral was an experience akin to having one's ears removed with a cheese grater.

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11. You will cease playing American football. There are only two kinds of proper football; one you call soccer, and rugby (dominated by the New Zealanders). Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed to play rugby (which has some similarities to American football, but does not involve stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar body armour like a bunch of nancies).

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12. Further, you will stop playing baseball. It is not reasonable to host an event called the World Series for a game which is not played outside of America. Since only 2.1% of you are aware there is a world beyond your borders, your error is understandable. You will learn cricket, and we will let you face the Australians (World dominators) first to take the sting out of their deliveries.

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13. You must tell us who killed JFK. It's been driving us mad.

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14. An internal revenue agent (i.e. tax collector) from Her Majesty's Government will be with you shortly to ensure the acquisition of all monies due (backdated to 1776).

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15. Daily Tea Time begins promptly at 4 p.m. with proper cups, with saucers, and never mugs, with high quality biscuits (cookies) and cakes; plus strawberries (with cream) when in season

God Save the Queen!

PS: Only share this with friends who have a good sense of humour (NOT humor)!

« Last Edit: October 28, 2016, 12:35:27 PM by spanner34.5 »
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1576 on: October 28, 2016, 01:42:08 PM »
I'm not calling for Trump to be punished for alleged crimes, or even saying that he is guilty of them.

Indeed - I wouldn't have batted an eyelid if you were only doing something so innocuous. You're doing something far more sinister than that. You choose to ignore the justice system and instead exact your own idea of justice by attempting to smear him with baseless allegations (which, by your own admission, rely on reading Trump's words in reverse...).

This is just a less competent variant of SJWs trying to get people fired for saying disagreeable things on Facebook. It's disgusting, and if you manage to set the precedent, you'll get to enjoy an even more broken country.

But hey, whether or not you want to go there is for Americans to decide. In this particular case, it's not a Trump vs Hillary issue. It's a Saddam/Trekky vs ethics issue.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2016, 01:44:58 PM by SexWarrior »
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George

Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1577 on: October 28, 2016, 04:34:50 PM »
I'm not calling for Trump to be punished for alleged crimes, or even saying that he is guilty of them.

Indeed - I wouldn't have batted an eyelid if you were only doing something so innocuous. You're doing something far more sinister than that. You choose to ignore the justice system and instead exact your own idea of justice by attempting to smear him with baseless allegations (which, by your own admission, rely on reading Trump's words in reverse...).

This is just a less competent variant of SJWs trying to get people fired for saying disagreeable things on Facebook. It's disgusting, and if you manage to set the precedent, you'll get to enjoy an even more broken country.

But hey, whether or not you want to go there is for Americans to decide. In this particular case, it's not a Trump vs Hillary issue. It's a Saddam/Trekky vs ethics issue.

This is incredibly melodramatic and not at all a fair interpretation of the situation.  Trump is running for president.  His past words and actions are absolutely going to be scrutinized.  It's not unusual, and it's not a sinister attempt at bypassing the justice system.  It's just the political process at work, and something that every candidate has to face.  Look at the furor over Hillary's emails, for example.  Unlike Trump's alleged groping, that issue did go through the justice system, and she was officially cleared of wrongdoing.  And yet Trump, along with a significant chunk of his fanbase, continues to rant about how she should not only not be elected president over it, but should be thrown in prison anyway.  Going by your logic, isn't that far worse than what's happened with this groping issue?  They're not simply trying to ignore the justice system, they're trying to outright defy it!

Also, while I agree with you that online mobs devoted to destroying people's lives and careers for saying or doing the wrong thing are bullshit (although it's fair to make a note here that that tactic is not exclusive to leftists/SJWs), those are cases of coercion, not persuasion.  It's never a situation where people genuinely say to each other, "Hey, I don't think we should use this business/service any longer; there's a couple of people working there who are pretty openly racist," it's always "Hey, business/service owner!  You had better fire this employee that you have, or else we're going to be telling everyone that you hire racists, maybe because you're a racist yourself, contact all your business partners to let them know that they've gotten involved with a creep who knowingly employs racists, and in general dedicate ourselves to destroying your livelihood!"  To put it another way, that would be more like if people were demanding that Trump be forcibly removed from the ticket and prohibited from running.  Which, come to think of it, is another thing that Trump and much of his fanbase have been openly calling for about Hillary.  Hmm.

Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1578 on: October 28, 2016, 06:21:13 PM »
Indeed - I wouldn't have batted an eyelid if you were only doing something so innocuous. You're doing something far more sinister than that.



You choose to ignore the justice system

Nope.

and instead exact your own idea of justice by attempting to smear him with baseless allegations

I am not exacting justice by thinking that Trump probably groped women without their consent. And you must be using a definition of "baseless" of which I am not aware, because Trump admitting to groping women after those claims had already surfaced makes those claims at least more credible than baseless.

(which, by your own admission, rely on reading Trump's words in reverse...).

Nah I'm pretty sure you can read them in the correct order and still see that he's talking about groping women and them letting him do it because he is rich/powerful/famous.

This is just a less competent variant of SJWs trying to get people fired for saying disagreeable things on Facebook. It's disgusting,

Talk dirty to me bebe.

and if you manage to set the precedent, you'll get to enjoy an even more broken country.

lol k

But hey, whether or not you want to go there is for Americans to decide. In this particular case, it's not a Trump vs Hillary issue. It's a Saddam/Trekky vs ethics issue.

Saddam/Trekky 2020?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Race
« Reply #1579 on: October 28, 2016, 07:04:51 PM »
Well, fair enough. If you're interested in employing Trump's tactics by yourselves, be my guest. I'll simply continue to point it out to you and explain over and over how absolutely bonkers that is.

Nah I'm pretty sure you can read them in the correct order and still see that he's talking about groping women[...]
Right, let's give you a chance to explain yourself, then. Here's what you have quoted (additional emphasis mine):
He did say he does it without consent though (emphasis mine).

Quote
I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything

So, either you think that kissing is groping, or you decided to apply a later statement ("Grab them by the pussy") retroactively to "I don't even wait." Now, having known you for a while I assume you know that kissing is not in fact groping, so that leaves me with the conclusion that you have read the statements in reverse. If neither of these is correct, could you present an alternative explanation?

Going by your logic, isn't that far worse than what's happened with this groping issue?  They're not simply trying to ignore the justice system, they're trying to outright defy it!
[...]
To put it another way, that would be more like if people were demanding that Trump be forcibly removed from the ticket and prohibited from running.  Which, come to think of it, is another thing that Trump and much of his fanbase have been openly calling for about Hillary.  Hmm.
In fairness, people have been calling for Trump to be prohibited from running... and the Hillary case isn't exactly closed either... But those minor details aside, I agree. I've said it twice, and I'll said it a third time: the problem exists on both sides. That doesn't give you an excuse to do it as well, imo. "Many people are shitheads therefore I can be a shithead too" just doesn't sit well with me.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2016, 07:26:13 PM by SexWarrior »
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